Friday, March 20, 2015

A look back at the history of KU vs. Wichita State


The game everyone wanted to see is set. Sunday, in Omaha, Nebraska, Kansas University and Wichita State will lock up in the first meeting between the two men's basketball programs since 1993.

KU opened as a 1.5-point favorite according to odds makers in Las Vegas. And here's a quick look back at the history of the KU-WSU college basketball series.

Kansas leads the all-time series against Wichita State, 12-2. The Jayhawks have won the last five meetings.

KU 65, Fairmount College 15, Dec. 18, 1908, Wichita: Phog Allen’s Jayhawks rolled to the road victory. The win upped KU’s record to 7-0 in a 25-3 season. Fairmount College was the predecessor to Wichita University and ultimately Wichita State.

KU 54, Wichita State 39, Feb. 3, 1941, Wichita: Allen’s Jayhawks, who went 12-6, won the road game to improve to 7-3. KU’s Ralph Miller, who played in the game, went on to coach 13 seasons at Wichita State.

KU 56, Wichita State 37, Feb. 2, 1942, Wichita: KU improved to 9-1 en route to a 17-5 record in Miller’s senior season at KU. The Jayhawks went 2-1 in the NCAA Tournament that year.

KU 56, Wichita State 55, Dec. 7, 1955, Wichita: KU prevailed by a single point in Game Two of a 14-9 season. It was the dedication night for WSU’s Roundhouse, which opened a few months after KU’s Allen Fieldhouse. The game pitted KU coach Allen against his former player, Miller in Allen’s final season at KU.

Wichita State 66, KU 65, March 20, 1981, New Orleans: Mike Jones hit a 25-footer for the game winner before 34,060 fans in the Louisiana Superdome. Some Shocker fans still wear T-shirts commemorating the victory in the Midwest Regional semifinals.

The Jayhawks led, 65-62, with :56 left when Darnell Valentine missed the front end of a one and one. Jones followed at :46 with a 25-footer (there was no three point line then) that cut the deficit to one. Valentine missed a breakaway layup, WSU holding for the final shot. Unable to get the ball inside, the Shockers settled for another 25 footer from Jones, which swished with :04 left. KU coach Ted Owens then called an innovative play, trying to draw a foul on a final inbounds pass.

Valentine set a pick on the baseline as Booty Neal ran behind the line preparing to inbound. WSU’s Jay Jackson ran into Valentine, but no foul was called. Neal called time out, then on the ensuing inbounds threw the ball out of bounds.

KU 79, Wichita State 69, Feb. 5, 1984, Lawrence: KU won the first game of a four-year series set up by ADs Monte Johnson of KU and Lew Perkins of WSU. One game would be held in Lawrence, one in Wichita, one in KC and one in a four-team tourney in KC. Larry Brown’s Jayhawks won the opener of the series in Allen in his first season as KU coach. That KU team went 22-10 and placed second in the Big Eight.

KU 90, Wichita State 83, Jan. 5, 1985, Kansas City: Brown’s second KU team, which went 26-8, and also placed second in the Big Eight with a freshman named Danny Manning, was led by Ron Kellogg, who cashed 30 points. WSU’s Xavier McDaniel had 29.

KU 81, Wichita State 56, Dec. 28, 1985, Kansas City: KU beat the Shockers in the final game of a tourney in KC in what became a Final Four season.

Wichita State 54, KU 49, Jan. 6, 1987, Wichita: KU did lose to WSU in Wichita during Manning’s junior season. The Shocker coach to pull off the victory in a game played at a snail’s pace? Eddie Fogler.

KU 86, Wichita State 66, Jan. 25, 1989, Lawrence: Roy Williams’ first KU team pounded WSU in the first game of a new home and home series with the Shockers. Right after that win, KU dropped eight league games in a row in a 19-12 season.

KU 93, Wichita Stae 66, Jan. 9, 1990, Wichita: That 1989-90 KU team, which went 30-5, blistered the Shockers. Roy Williams and his players were not happy about taunts from the crowd, which Williams considered a bit too mean-spirited.

“I think the people down here made a bigger deal out of this game than they should have,” said Jeff Gueldner, who had 17 points. He cashed five of seven three-pointers and also had eight assists, four rebounds and four steals. “Coach Williams just about had death threats,” Gueldner added. “To us it was a big game, like they all are.”

KU 84, Wichita State 50, Jan. 23, 1991, Lawrence: KU actually led by 25 in the first half in this one as Williams’ Final Four team, bolstered by the likes of Terry Brown, Mark Randall, Alonzo Jamison, etc., won big.

KU 81, Wichita State 51, Jan. 8, 1992, Wichita: This actually was the third-worst loss in WSU’s Levitt Arena. Adonis Jordan had a game-high 20 points and Richard Scott had 17.

KU 103, Wichita State 54, Jan. 6, 1993, Lawrence: KU’s Final Four team had no problem with WSU, the last game in series history quite the romp.

More news and notes from Kansas vs. New Mexico State in the NCAA Tournament


Bryce Landon 4 years, 2 months ago

Look at that, KU played its first four games against WSU in Wichita without any return meeting!

John Fitzgerald 4 years, 2 months ago

Time for Gregg "I'm a Baby Back B$&@h" Marshall to eat his words. Rock Chalk!

Aaron Paisley 4 years, 2 months ago

So, 7 games in Wichita, 4 in Lawrence, 2 in Kansas City, and 1 in New Orleans. I think WSU needs to make a few trips to Lawrence before KU even remotely thinks of heading to Wichita. And WSU needs to stay relevant after Marshall leaves.

Joe Ross 4 years, 2 months ago

What if Marshall is there another 20 years? And why does this standard apply only to Wichita (i.e., we don't schedule teams unless the home-away count is exactly even)?

Aaron Paisley 4 years, 2 months ago

If Marshall is there another 20 years, we likely hear him taking shots at KU in the media not scheduling them for 20 years while he still never calls Self to actually see if a game could be done. And if Marshall is truly serious about making WSU into the next Gonzaga, he can start playing elite teams on the road without expecting a return date in Wichita.

Joe Ross 4 years, 2 months ago

Clearly, the point of my question was to not to address more general ramifications of Marshall's tactics if he stayed, but to speak specifically to the point which you yourself mentioned; namely, that WSU needs to stay relevant after Marshall leaves. I'll cut to the chase: if Marshall stays another 20 years, then your issue about relevance if he leaves is a non-issue. As a home-and-home is the absolute best WSU can hope for, they don't even need to be relevant for the length of time I abitrarily proposed. They only need to be relevant to cover the length of time for a home and home series to transpire.

If you would like to discuss Marshall's tactics, we can do so. But for now, there is nothing set in stone that says WSU or any mid-major needs to follow the recipe Gonzaga did. It's this kind of narrow focus that imprints itself upon arguments against scheduling. There are VERY good reasons not to schedule WSU, but having to do it in the style of any other unrelated school is not one of them.

And again I ask, why are we being hypocritical with respect to Wichita's having to play the same number of games at home and away vs Kansas when we dont do that for other schools? Again, I think opponents of scheduling are cherry-picking arguments and applying them unevenly in the case of WSU.

Aaron Paisley 4 years, 2 months ago

Joe, my initial post was sort of made in jest, and clearly went over your head. I made a post below that hits on most of your points and bottom line, there isn't a good reason to put WSU on the schedule right now unless it's in Lawrence as a standalone game which they apparently have no interest in based on Marshall's comments the past couple of years on the matter.

Joe Ross 4 years, 2 months ago

Yes, clearly it went over my head. Although there is nothing in your post to indicate you were not serious about the position stated above. I assume then, since it was made in jest that you do not stand by it.

Pete Owens 4 years, 2 months ago

It would be great if someone in the media (Keegan) could set the AP straight that KU is not ducking WSU. They stopped the series in 93 after getting their rears kicked multiple times. Roy stopped any option after Jerry Green was not hired during the Shocker's two decades of national irrelevance. Turg brought them back and he understood KU had no incentive to play them.

Joe Ross 4 years, 2 months ago

Their former irrelevance is irrelevant.

You say, "Roy stopped any option after Jerry Green was not hired during the Shocker's two decades of national irrelevance." So if irrelevance is a reason not to schedule, then the converse should also be true. It seems sane to think that a nationally relevant team is incentive enough to schedule. Heck, we have even put irrelevant teams on our schedule -+/

Rodney Crain 4 years, 2 months ago

Do I read this right? All time they are 2-14 against KU. Since 1905 they have 50 winning seasons, 65 non winning/losing seasons. They have 1,430 wins, an average of 13 wins a season. They have 9 total conference regular season championships since 1905. They have only 13 winning seasons in the last 30 years. Only 17, 25+ win seasons or more in the last 70 years. Only 6 25+win seasons in the last 20 years.

We are over 2,056 wins, 19 average wins a season since 1905. 96 winning seasons in 117 years. Almost 60 conference championships, and 17 25 game won seasons in the last 20 years.

We are going to play them because they are next in our bracket, but I see very little to justify playing them every season. Win or lose there is almost no upside to KU adding them to our non conf schedule.

Joe Ross 4 years, 2 months ago

Gregg Marshall is 0-0 against KU. Since he took over 7 seasons ago, theyve had 6 winning seasons, including the first team in NCAA history to win 31 games in the regular season.

The justification to play them (or not play them for that matter) wont be based on the breadth and scope of the history between the two programs since the dawn of basketball; more appropriately, it should be determined by other factors: recruiting, economics and, if history has anything to do with it, the recent performance of WSU which may factor in for RPI consideration.

Still doesnt sound like a series gets done to me.

Rodney Crain 4 years, 2 months ago

The bulk of their recent success is in the last 5 years. One recruiting class. Joe if they are going to act like equals and demand respect than you have to look at the last 20 years at least. This article went back to 1908, I wanted to post the rest of the story on some key comparisons other than head to head. If you do not you are taking a flash in the pan vs. a relevant team. Their coach acts like we are scared to play them. It is not fear it is a lack of desire and or need. Other than it would "be great for some of the fans", Do we need to play them for RPI, SOS, recruiting, money? No, nope, lol, umm uh No. They certainly would not have made a difference to RPI this year. We were not going to rise above KY. I will take our noncon schedule the last two years against anyones. There is no other reason other than for the fans, mostly theirs.

I am glad we are playing them Sunday, it is getting some additional exposure for our program, but win or lose I hope we only play them when we want to, not because they are calling us out after they have had success for 6 years.

I am surprised you think our tradition and their lack of one has no bearing here.

31 games in the conference they play in is not something you hang your hat on. In those 6 seasons they have only won their conference 3 times. Who are they beating? Inflated empty wins.

Don't get me wrong, I miss my trips to Salina, Dillion's HQ in Hutchinson, Driving along Kellogg in Wichita and the Dodge City Holiday Inn on my way to Liberal for a sales call. I still have a lot of Family from the oil fields of Hays too. I just have no respect for WSU and especially their coach. Let him find his relevance somewhere else.

Joe Ross 4 years, 2 months ago

Your first sentence is the reason why the rest of the history is irrelevant. One recruiting class is not responsible for Wichita State's current success. Gregg Marshall took over in 07-08 and theyve been improving as a program every year since then. Thats nearly 8 years completed. That's not one recruiting class. That's not a flash in the pan. Im not a WSU apologist, Im just saying lets get the relevant history right.

Scope of the article notwithstanding, Gregg Marshall is not responsible for any of the history, scheduling, recruiting, coaching (what have you) prior to the time that he got there. Do we need to play them to improve RPI and SOS. No. But is there anyone in the country that we need to play? No, nope, lol, umm uh No. You say there is " other reason other for the fans...". What other reason is there? Every answer you give ultimately traces back to the fact that basketball is played for the fans.

You may be surprised that I think their lack of tradition has no bearing, but outside of the last 7-8 years that is exactly how I feel. When we schedule teams we dont look at their history! If we only played teams with great tradition we'd have only Kentucky, UNC, UCLA, Indiana, Syracuse, Duke, and a couple of other teams on our schedule. Good,Lord. We had Long Beach State, San Diego State, Towson, and a slate of non-storied programs on our regular season schedule during the time that Gregg Marshall has been at Wichita. Clearly, this is a non-starter. The longitudinal history of their program going back to its origins has no bearing on the discussion of scheduling whatsoever. If it does then please explain why it matters only for Wichita and no one else.

Cody Riedy 4 years, 2 months ago

We schedule Long Beach State and Towson because they come play on our home court. We schedule other schools, like San Diego State because they are in different markets and recruiting grounds.

Joe Ross 4 years, 2 months ago

  1. If we scheduled a home and home, then in two years we would only have to go to play there once. Certainly, one game in two years for the sake of fan interest is not going to destabilize the recruiting juggernaut Coach Self is building.

  2. If we don't want to schedule them in the regular season, which there has been much talk about, schedule the game as an exhibition.

  3. Regular season or exhibition, schedule the game at the Sprint Center and raise ticket prices modestly. The argument against going to play at Wichita is presumably lost revenue. The Sprint Center has greater seating capacity (about 3k more seating). With these changes, they could even negotiate a split of the profits that recognizes Kansas' greater earning potential...say, 60/40? We might lose some, but it wouldn't be much at all. We play games in the Sprint Center anyway.

  4. There are ways to get this done that address most or all of the concerns Kansas has about scheduling WSU, without resorting to all the non-reasons for not doing so.

Joe Ross 4 years, 2 months ago

The recounting of the history of the program in the above is given for interest only. The authors do not intend to imply that the history going back to 1908 has any bearing whatsoever upon this game. NO ONE thinks that. The relevant history is that under Gregg Marshall. The beginning of his history with the program does impact this game, because they wouldnt be the team they are today were it not for how built the program since he arrived. So here, only the relevant history is given (briefly):

In 07-08, the year Kansas won the NCAA Championship, Greg Marshall was in his first season. He went 11-20.

In 08-09, they improved to .500 (17-17) and lost in the CBI to Stanford.

In 09-10, they went 25-10 and were invited to the NIT. Marshall improved 14 games in the win column over two seasons.

In 10-11, they recorded a 29-8 record, a second place finish in the MoValley conference, and won the NIT.

In 11-12, they won the MoValley, reached no. 14 in the coaches poll, no. 15 in the AP, and were selected a 5-seed in the NCAA tournament.

The 12-13 year was a continuation of the improvement Marshall brought to Wichita as they won the regular season in their conference outright, advanced to the Final Four, and lost to eventual NCAA tournament champion Louisville.

In 13-14, WSU rose to no. 2 in both national polls, finished the season with an unblemished 31-0 record, won the MoValley conference title, earned a 1-seed in the NCAA tournament, and narrowly lost to vaunted Kentucky by two points.

Again, ONE RECRUITING CLASS IS NOT RESPONSIBLE for building this program up. People who underestimate/make light of/dismiss the their opponents and fail to recognize what they have built are begging to be upset.

Here's what people need to get their mind around: though players only play four years, the team we will play on Sunday was SEVEN years in the making.

Cody Riedy 4 years, 2 months ago

Just as you say that the longitudinal history of WSU success or lack there of doesn't matter, one can likewise say their recent history doesn't matter either. WSU has been really good the last few years. So what? They don't play int he same league as us, they don't (as of yet) compete for the same recruits as us, they don't introduce us to a new market, etc etc. Self doesn't make the schedule to satisfy the desire for some KU and all of WSU fans to have an annual p*ssing contest for state bragging rights. Self doesn't need to win the Kansas State championship. But again, if he decides its worth KUs time, then fine. But in the meantime, KU has no obligation and nothing to answer for in not scheduling WSU.

Joe Ross 4 years, 2 months ago

The argument about history of the programs is not one that I employ from scratch. On the contrary, it is those who are NOT in favor of scheduling them who broach the subject of WSU's non-power historical status to say we shouldn't. I bring up the matter of recent history because 1. the long history is irrelevant and 2. it makes farcical the arguments they put forward.

There are many teams we schedule that don't play in the same league as us. It's called the non-con.

There are many teams we play that don't compete for the same recruits as us.

KU has no obligation to schedule WSU, to be sure. But then again, we have no obligation to schedule in particular school outside of WSU either.

Rodney Crain 4 years, 2 months ago

With respect,

Joe that's a lot of research that add up a lot of empty wins. Half of all those wins are like 2015 TCO non con wins, just a w, does not mean a whole lot. Not 1 recruiting class? When have the conference championships come from? 2012, 2014 and 2015. Kind of bunched together there are they not? When was the last time two top 15 teams played in the MVC season? This year, first time in almost 40 years. WSU does not impress me.

However I will give you every single point you want to make. I just ask this one question. Have you ever heard, formally or informally, Coach Owens, Brown, Williams, or Coach Self ever condescend or disrespect another program or coach like coach Marshall has KU? (Happened twice). Slight affronts I agree but still, have you ever heard our coaches act in this way? I have not. Even if they have, do you think anyone of them would turn around and then ask to play that team home and home because we deserve it? I just do not beleive they would.

WSU should be far down the list on things we need to fix with our schedule.

Joe Ross 4 years, 2 months ago

We've come a great ways, Rodney. Thank you for the respect. I return it to you.

Let the debate continue.

You make a point of the conference championships. I grant you that the years you cite are the years WSU has won them. No argument from me there. Where you will observe my being vociferous is the fact that those conference championships are predicated upon the improvement that Marshall established prior to 2012. Hear me well. You and I, being Kansas football fans, know all too well how long it takes to change a culture. Some people never get it done; hence, revolving door of coaches at KU. It's not like magic happened overnight at WSU. He had to establish an ethic and reset the culture. You could argue with me except that in year two he improved drastically. Then in year three he improved drastically again. WITHOUT the vaunted class he has now. Same for year four. None of the current roster was on the team then.


Not one recruiting class.

Now when you mix in a good class being welcome by a culture you have established, then you get the results Marshall has gotten. And while we're at it, let's not act like the performance of that recruiting class has nothing to do with Coach Marshall. It's called coaching. I dare suggest that having gone anywhere else, VanVleet, Baker, et al would not have become the performers they are without Marshall. I base that observation on the drastic improvement he had with veritable no names before those players arrived.

As far as condescension, I answer your question with a "no". I have not heard them do so. But I ask a question in return: When youre an up-and-comer, aren't your tactics a little different than those who might coach at an established blue blood school?

I dont praise Marshall for his ragged words, but I respect what he's done with the program in spite of them (by the way, Im the one who beat the drum for Mark Mangino under similar reasoning). I argue for scheduling the game not because Marshall is entitled to a citizenship award, but because I see the game as good for Kansas and it would generate fan interest.

Rodney Crain 4 years, 2 months ago

The first few years Marshall was there he was using a previous coaches recruits who were slowly improving. He adds some transfers and then his recruits start to gel, 2011, 2012 and he starts winning championships. He has had one very good class that is all. He is a good basketball coach, I just have no respect for his approach to KU. There is no need no matter where your program development is to take that tact. If lacks class and respect. I wonder if he had a chance to handle it differently again, I would bet he would. Poor choice.

Unfortunately comparing turning around a basketball program around versus a football program is comparing apples and oranges. A few good players in a weak conference turns you into a pretty good team quickly. The cupboard was not bare there, and with just a few transfers like Wiggins it is much easier to do that quickly.

KU football is in a tough conference, with a bare cupboard on their 3rd coach in 4 years. They need about 20-30+ players and the caliber they can get are going to take a few years to develop. Turning around a basketball program is not as hard to do as Football.

Marshall does not get all the credit for developing Van Vleet and Baker. Van Vleet was a 3 star, 138th ranked player in 2012, Baker, 2 star, a KS boy was a good player who needed the right system. I don't believe for a second he made them into great shooters. They both are very good, but keep in mind they barely play anyone in conference play. Big fish small pool. Those guys would be successful on almost any team.

Do not really hold your sentiment on being good for Kansas, but it will generate a lot of conversation that is for sure.

Joe Ross 4 years, 2 months ago

Damn, you make some good points!

I'll let yours be the last word and merely thank you for a brisk and respectful debate. Because the game is tomorrow and the aftermath of it will be discussed win or lose, we have plenty of time to make additional points in future comments.

Again, great debate!

Rodney Crain 4 years, 2 months ago

I concur. I tip my hat to your thoughts and your respect.

Good day sir.

Holly Grassy 4 years, 2 months ago

Wow. Sure is a lot of preoccupation with the idea of WSU and KU getting back on each others' schedules considering KU fans consider WSU irrelevant. It doesn't really matter at this point anyway. The disparity by this time of year has pretty much leveled out once tournament play starts (as proven by the number of upsets we saw on Thursday). No one really needs to play anyone during the year to get a leg up. If they are prepared, then they are prepared for anyone (unless it's Kentucky) especially if they are well-coached.

Remember, WSU wouldn't be the first MVC team to pull the rug out from under KU in the tournament either (for those who remember UNI and Bradley). We can tell ourselves that KU is a blue blood and doesn't need to play any of the MVC or other "lowly" conferences during the regular season because they have better things to do and already been there done that enough to prove it's not necessary. But history will mean nothing once they step on the court Sunday.The score still starts off at 0-0.

Holly Grassy 4 years, 2 months ago

Thanks. I think it will be a fun show, no matter what. Since we all know the likely team to come out of this bracket ("they whom shall not be named"), this will sort of be the equivalent of a championship game for Kansas basketball. Who cares about "they whom shall not be named" anymore now?

Len Shaffer 4 years, 2 months ago

Thanks for the history, J-W, but I think you're wrong on the 1942 tournament. I believe KU lost its first game to Colorado and won the regional consolation game against Rice, which would have made them 1-1, not 2-1.

Mike Barnhart 4 years, 2 months ago

In today's world, perception trumps reality. When legend becomes fact, print the legend! To the outside world, it sure looks like KU has been ducking the Shockers. Here's why they're wrong:

Most major programs play their geographic non-con rivals at a neutral site but the state of Kansas doesn't have an adequate neutral court. With that option off the table, Wichita State has demanded the series be split evenly between Lawrence and Wichita. In reality, big programs don't do that without getting some kind of recruiting benefit out of it and we already get any Wichita recruit we want.

It'd be great if we met in tournaments more often but outside of that, this is our chance to SHUT THEM UP for a while!

Lance Hobson 4 years, 2 months ago

They're an in-state rival so we should play them. Period. Sad that we're living up to our snob hill reputation by banning them. And why is there SOS talk? Has KU ever been on the bubble? Ever?

Cody Riedy 4 years, 2 months ago

KU is a snob because Bill Self runs the program the way he sees fit and schedules what he thinks is best for the program instead of immediately jumping to satisfy the desire of clamoring Wichita State fans and Greg Marshall's ego? No one is a snob by explaining why KU hasn't had any advantages in scheduling WSU and its not an insult to WSU either. If I argue against scheduling WSU its in answering the claim that KU is "afraid". It's not like KU fans are on a proactive mission for "banning" WSU as you put it; we're answering the trash talk about KU with an explanation, not more trash talk. Self is taking care of KU basketball and I'd say he's doing it pretty well. When Self decides its good for KU to schedule WSU, then I'll be all for it.

Joe Ross 4 years, 2 months ago

I wouldnt call them a "rival", but I agree with the rest of your comment. The game would be interesting and thats why you should give it to the fans. Ultimately, every short-term goal in basketball traces a path to fan interest, which is the highest of all goals from a team perspective in college basketball. Why we would cheat ourselves of an interesting game is completely nonsensical.

Rodney Crain 4 years, 2 months ago

I am sorry but this is a new tangent...

Disagree completly that every short-term goal traces to fan interest. I beleive donors, alumni, monetary needs, and recruiting also have to be considered as well. I have rarely heard a team as their goals for a season list on the board Keep Fan Interest High. We need help selling out Allen? Do we need help having our fans travel for games? Maybe all those Blue shirts in the stands are for some other cause or team? I think fan interest is fine. This game would be for WSU.

Why would their coach allude we are ducking them and then demand a home and home series? Remind me how that works, I jokingly call you a chicken for laughs at some team event and you are supposed to take me seriously. For the fans?

Joe Ross 4 years, 2 months ago

I accept the tangent! Love the rolling debate. It's a friendly one so I dont mind keeping it going.

Let me pick out a couple of the things you mention to make my point that everything traces to fan interest. You mention recruiting. Well, why recruit? To have a good team? Certainly. Why have a good team? So your fans will enjoy watching the games and come and see them.

If your fans come and watch the game, they will donate (another goal you said was worthwhile). But they are donating because they enjoy watching their team play basketball and they want to see it continue.

The alumni are a consideration only insofar as they enjoy watching the games of their alma mater and/or they are interested in donating. Either way, this comes down to fan interest.

With respect, E-VER-Y-THING is about fan interest, expressly stated or not. Why? Because fan interest puts money in the coffers. Every game on the schedule does this. We dont need help selling out Allen because fan interest is at the level it is! But since youre scheduling teams anyway, a game with WSU would certainly not offend the principles that made The University successful in appealing to the public.

As far as your last paragraph, the answer is "yes" with only one qualification: his fans, not ours. If you can stir your own fan base to call for a game, chances are good youll have alumni or boosters who have some connections to try to force pressure to make the game happen. Before you call me crazy, it's already happened. Not just in Texas and California and other places (it has there too), but it's happened with WSU with respect to Kansas. Not only that, but making a public spectacle generates media attention--as has happened--that makes a big deal of the fact that there hasnt been a game.

These things are really self-evident and dont require an explanation on my part.

Rodney Crain 4 years, 2 months ago

It is a wonderful way to kill a few hours I agree.

Well that is a broad and incorrect use for the term fan interest. It is not even close to a reasonable explanation so I see why you can't make it. That is like the only reason to do anything, anything with any sporting event is for fan interest. If that was the case you would not suspend players, it hurts fan interest, you would not allow poor officiating it hurts fan interest, poor academic results from students would be ignored fans deserve to see their favorite players, you would not charge for tickets fan interest might be hurt, parking for all events would be free, refreshments too. It is not all related to fan interest, or whatever broad definition you are using.

This is college sports, amateur athletics, at least that is the description. All about the college athletic experience. We are only allowed to watch it, not shape it right? It is not suppose to be all about the fans, but all about the players I thought. Now we both know that is not even remotely the case, but that is the ideal.

If it was only about appeasing the fans this game would have been scheduled as soon as the first fan raised their hand and asked for it. Its not, because it is not a fan based program it is a college sport using college players. The school decides what is in their best interests. Not the fans.

Rodney Crain 4 years, 2 months ago

They are not a rival. We are not snobs, being successful many teams would want to play us, the program can chose who it wants to play. I do not recall the word ban used anywhere? Ever, yes we have been on the bubble, it has been a while but I am sure there are some Ted Owen teams that were on the bubble. What does that have to do with this topic?

JD Roth 4 years, 2 months ago

Don't come walking up after the game to shake hands with Self with that bull s@#@ cup in your hand Marshall. Because, win or lose, if I was the opposing coach, I'd knock it out of your hand. So damn arrogant when you do that. Maybe you quit that habit. When I saw that in the past I thought, "what an a@#hole!".

Aaron Paisley 4 years, 2 months ago

Joe, you seem to think that KU has a lot of games they schedule and can afford one "for the fans". The reality is that KU really doesn't have very many games they schedule themselves. They play 31 games during the regular season, 18 Big 12 games, 4 games for whatever preseason tournament they're in (3 on site at the tournament and 1 at AFH against a cupcake not in the main field), and 1 game apiece in the Champions Classic and the Big 12/SEC (PAC 10 before that) series. That leaves 7 opponents each year that KU actually schedules (6 in the years the play a one off game like the Coaches v. Cancer in New York) and one of those 7 games is always at the Sprint Center. When you actually dig into it, KU only gets to determine where they play 6 games a year in a typical season. KU typically only schedules 1 road game a year and it doesn't make sense to schedule that road game (financially, recruiting, or RPI wise) against a mid-major within the state that doesn't benefit KU in those ways.

Look at the road games KU has scheduled themselves recently:

2014-15: Temple, Philly is a major recruiting area for KU 2013-14: Colorado, power conference team that was tourney regular at time 2012-13: Ohio St., power conference team that is consistent top 15 program 2012-13: USC, Power conference team in a major recruiting area 2011-12 (Pre Champions Classic so 1 extra game KU was in control of): Cal, Bay Area is a good recruiting area, and Michigan, Detroit is also a good recruiting area.

Colorado is they only atypical road game the past 5 years even then Colorado was an NCAA tournament team that was ranked for about half the season. In the future, KU has true games scheduled in Washington DC (Georgetown), San Diego (SDSU), and Las Vegas (UNLV) which are all in areas KU actively recruits from.

If WSU wants to prove themselves as a team, then they can take the Gonzaga route and come to Lawrence without expecting a return trip to Wichita. Gonzaga did that about 15 years ago when they came to Lawrence while they were in about the same stage of progress as WSU is now and they didn't ask for a return game. In the past 5 years, Gonzaga has gotten games against West Virginia, Illinios, Baylor, Notre Dame, Michigan St., Oklahoma St. as well as games in Seattle against Illinois, Arizona, and Kansas St.

If Marshall is serious about getting WSU to a level where an annual game with KU is worth KU's time, start by playing those road games, try and get a series going with KSU or OSU since they're nearby and not a power at the level KU is. Get to a Gonzaga level of excellence where it's sustained, and then it might become worth KU's time to do a series with WSU. Until that day, it's never going to happen except in circumstances like this.

Joe Ross 4 years, 2 months ago

Now here is finally a cogent post from opponents of scheduling. As I mentioned above, there are in fact some very good reasons not to schedule. You do an excellent job here of encapsulating the best of those arguments. More than that, even, I appreciate a post where someone has had to dig to get their facts straight. You dont need my endorsement but you have it just the same.

Nevertheless, it would be more than difficult to convince me that a game every several years is going to destabilise what Coach Self is trying to do. A lot of people assume, for example, that the return game on a home and home has to be returned the next year. Of course it doesnt. They can agree on a schedule to play out a home and home over three years. Is the assertion really being made that a game vs. Wichita outside of Lawrence is the linchpin that, if pulled, will cause the wheel to come off? Id have to be pretty desperate to even consider that.

This issue has all the trappings of a Floyd Mayweather v. Manny Pacquiao fiasco in scheduling. People want to see the game, and there are some very creative ways one can use to make it happen.

Again despite the disagreement, this is one of the best posts Ive seen from those on your side.

Rodney Crain 4 years, 2 months ago

Very Nice Aaron!

Respectful too thank you. Joe and I are just having but fun but I really like your Zag point. I agree you cannot just jump to the front of the line because you have 3 conf. championships in the last 20 years and say, ok were relevant now.

Nice research too!

Michael Lorraine 4 years, 2 months ago

I'm all for playing them but I do think it benefits them more than us. We are 12-2 all time and the average margin of victory over the last 5 meetings is 32 points. We won't get any accolades if we win and if we lose it will be huge for them. How about playing them a couple times on a neutral court.

Rob Chestnut 4 years, 2 months ago

The schedule boils down to one thing > money. In the end, KU can schedule as many made for ESPN games with Kentucky, North Carolina, Duke, Michigan State or any other big name program as they desire for a larger pay day than a home-and-home with Wichita State. Maximizing revenue from the schedule and creating as much national exposure as possible is the AD's only concern. That is not right or wrong, it is just the way it is. Since football has not proven to be lucrative to the athletic department in recent years, the pressure is even greater to maximize basketball revenue.

Thus is the state of college athletics. Rivalries are great if you can monetize them. Otherwise, they do not hold much weight in the minds of ADs across the country.

Len Shaffer 4 years, 2 months ago

I think I had blacked out that 1987 loss. I believe that was the game where KU came out in those hideous yellow uniforms. When they lost, I was actually somewhat glad, because it likely meant they wouldn't ever wear yellow uniforms again.

Andy Tweedy 4 years, 2 months ago

They yellow uniforms were against one of the Carolina schools, Coastal I believe. Still, I'm with you, I have no recollection of that loss, must have blanked that out myself.

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