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Kansas State defeats Kansas, 84-68

  • 8 p.m., Feb. 14, 2011
  • Bramlage Coliseum, Manhattan, KS

Originally published February 15, 2011 at 12:00a.m., updated February 15, 2011 at 01:06p.m.

Kings for a day: Jayhawks rise to No. 1, fall — hard — to ’Cats

Kansas players leave the floor as the Kansas State student section rushes the court after the Wildcats defeated the Jayhawks, 84-68, on Monday, Feb. 14, 2011 at Bramlage Coliseum.

Kansas players leave the floor as the Kansas State student section rushes the court after the Wildcats defeated the Jayhawks, 84-68, on Monday, Feb. 14, 2011 at Bramlage Coliseum.

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Podcast episode

Press Conferences & Post-Game Interviews

KU coach Bill Self

Kansas coach Bill Self talks to reporters following the Jayhawks' 84-68 loss to Kansas State on Feb. 14, 2011.

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Podcast episode

Press Conferences & Post-Game Interviews

KU players Tyrel Reed and Mario Little

Kansas players Tyrel Reed and Mario Little talk to reporters following the Jayhawks' 84-68 loss to Kansas State on Feb. 14, 2011.

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— The new No. 1 team in the country didn’t play like the best squad in the land on Monday night in Bramlage Coliseum.

“The No. 1 ranking? After watching that? Geez ... we may fall out of the polls next week,” Kansas University basketball coach Bill Self said after the Jayhawks’ 84-68 loss to unrated Kansas State.

The game came on the same day KU ascended to No. 1 in both the AP and USA Today/ESPN polls.

“That wasn’t a very good team playing tonight,” Self added after KU’s worst loss to K-State since a 17-pointer (70-53) on Jan. 23, 1982, in Manhattan. The loss was also the Jayhawks’ largest margin of defeat overall since a 19-pointer at Texas Tech on March 4, 2009 (84-65).

“Let’s call it like it is: That was a beatdown,” Self added. “I thought they controlled the game from the opening tip. We were on our heels.”

Self was able to keep his sense of humor after his Jayhawks (24-2 overall, 9-2 Big 12) were burned by KSU’s Jacob Pullen to the tune of a career-high 38 points.

The senior guard hit nine of 17 shots, including five of six threes. He made 15 of 19 free throws en route to the 12th-best single-game scoring output against KU. It was the most points against KU since Michael Beasley of KSU scored 39 versus the Jayhawks on March 1, 2008, in Lawrence.

“You look at it from a positive standpoint, we held them to 46 points if Jacob didn’t play. That’s a good thing,” Self cracked.

Pullen’s 38 points were, in fact, the most points against a top-ranked team since Houston’s Elvin Hayes potted 39 for Houston versus UCLA in 1968. North Carolina’s Antawn Jamison had 35 versus Duke in 1997-98.

“Our play against him was poor,” Self said, adding, “He was fabulous. I don’t know that kid very well. He’s got 38 points on national TV against a team that doesn’t deserve it, but is ranked No. 1 in the country, against their arch-rivals and he defers to not shoot the ball to get 40 ... (that’s) class.”

Self, in fact, stopped Pullen in a Bramlage Coliseum hallway to tell Pullen how impressed he was with his sportsmanship.

“We defended him poorly, but he was fabulous,” Self repeated.

The Jayhawks fell behind 18-10 and 30-16, as well as 42-33 at the half, but trailed by just five points (46-41) with 16:25 left, yet a 19-6 KSU run took care of that.

The performance of the Wildcats (17-9, 5-6) made some wonder if this was all about KU feeling the pressure of being No. 1. It was the first time KU immediately lost on the same day as being tapped No. 1 since 1994 in Lawrence when KSU beat the Jayhawks, 68-64.

“I don’t think where we were ranked had anything to do with how we played,” Self said. “Pullen had a lot more to do with how we played than any ranking.

Noted KU’s Tyrel Reed (14 points): “Obviously we were No. 1 and didn’t protect it well. We were not trying to protect it. Give credit to K-State. We couldn’t match them tonight. We had some opportunities the second half. We cut it to five and didn’t do anything with it. We turned it over or took a bad shot. That was our M.O.”

KU also had a pair of unfortunate plays. Markieff Morris was called for an intentional foul in the first half, apparently swinging an elbow, and Elijah Johnson was called for a technical foul for yapping after dunking with the Jayhawks down, 71-57.

“I mean, definitely those things have to be addressed,” Reed said. “We have to be a more mature team than that.”

KU juniors Marcus Morris had 13 points and four turnovers, Markieff Morris three points and no boards and Tyshawn Taylor eight points and six turnovers.

“Our three junior starters all had rough nights, without question,” Self said.

“I will not put a positive spin on this. We played our in-state rival in their building in a great atmosphere, and we didn’t respond,” Self added. “I heard Frank (Martin, KSU coach) say that when he’s come to Allen. I probably feel the same way Frank did leaving Allen (after KU’s 90-66 win on Jan. 29) as I do Bramlage tonight. They were without question the better team from the opening tip.”

Josh Selby (stress reaction in foot) had four points in 11 minutes. He was playing for the first time in four games.

“I wasn’t going to even play Josh,” Self said. “We had nobody else we could go to. He only practiced one day. Hopefully he can get back in the flow and be a contributor in a big way.”

Interactive Timeline

2010-11 KU men's basketball timeline

• A previous version of this story was updated.

Comments

Larry Smith 3 years, 9 months ago

Well, it is time for the trolls and the “I only post after a loss” geniuses to get started. Have a great day, the sky is falling.

Hank Cross 3 years, 9 months ago

The sky isn't falling, but this type of loss could mean real problems when it comes to seeding and placing in the tourney.

  1. KU is now a 2nd seed. One No.1 is a lock for the BE and OSU, Duke, or UT have the inside track to hanging on to the other 3.

  2. 2/15 games are tougher than 1/16 games and an upset from this pairing regularly happens.

  3. Today the S curve might give you these top seeds in a regional: 1. Duke, 2. KU, 3. UConn, 4. Sacrificial Lamb with poor fan base that Duke can beat easily in the Regional Semi.

  4. That bracket looks like an excellent candidate for the Newark, NJ. Duke has always done well in regionals in NJ and this would also basically be a home game for UConn. This bracket at this location would be attractive to the committee and tv.

If it were to play out that way, that would be a real tough road to the FF.

bdk980 3 years, 9 months ago

I think it's waaay to early to start speculating as to where this loss puts us. However, I will give you that it adds some new dimensions to the field of 68 (that just feels wierd to say) and gives us considerably less margin for error if WE want a #1 seed. With that said... if KU wins the remaining games on the schedule and in the Big XII tourny faces UT in the finals, whomever wins that game is (not likely...will be) a #1 seed...period. From the perspective of Texas, they could probably drop either (not both) the KSU or Baylor game and the scenario probably holds true for them as well, win the Big XII tourny and get a #1 seed. The Jayhawks still control their own destiny.

bdk980 3 years, 9 months ago

and on a side night, I think we are going to see more "upsets" of ranked teams, especially of top10-15 teams as teams that are on the bubble (a la last night) try to make a case for themselves as to why the deserve to be included in the field of 68. (Its not inconceivable to see PITT drop a game in the quarters or semis of the Big East tourny). I keep hearing how "soft" the bubble is this year... still a fair amount of games to be played, and I'm sure some "soft" bubble teams are going to start feeling the "urgency" to get some marque wins.

Hank Cross 3 years, 9 months ago

A BE team is going to be a No.1 for certain.

rockingthechalk 3 years, 9 months ago

Yeah, no doubt the big east winner takes a number 1. Probably only 1 team from the big 12... the rest of our conference has not performed well enough.

JohnEdwards70 3 years, 9 months ago

Re your point on 2/15 upsets...define "regularly." There've been three in the last 20 years, with the most recent happening in 2001. That's three out of nearly 200 games. It's really not that big a difference in the early rounds between a 1 and a 2 seed.

Mike Bratisax 3 years, 9 months ago

And time for the KU and BS fans who refuse to admit this team has issues to get a grip on reality.

jaybate 3 years, 9 months ago

"Kieff a No Show, Marcus and Tyshawn Poor, Little Inefficient, EJ Still Doesn't Get It, and Perhaps the End of the Self-Selby Love Affair"

~The team played poorly on a career night by Pullen, but it was impotent team rebounding (neither bigs nor perimeter players could get on the glass), an off night by Marcus and Tyshawn, and Kieff pulling a complete disappear-o on a night KU did not have TRob that decisively and repeatedly killed KU's chances at sustaining a come back.

~Marcus and Kieff, who are the anchors of this team, have to look at each other in the mirror tonight and know they let their team mates and themselves down. Their inability to offend was not even the crucial problem. Marcus played poorly and Kieff didn't really even try. Perhaps Kieff was injured, or sick. Both got humiliated on the glass.

Rebounds in 20 Plus Minutes Kieff 0 Cus 3

The Twins clearly came out trying to avoid fouling and then proceeded to get roughed up and, lacking TRob to come in and take the roughness back to KSU, the Twins literally became intimidated.

This is worrisome. It is one thing to have an off game and the Twins that have played so well so long were due for one. What worries is that they got intimidated, when they did not have TRob to come in and back them up, when things got rough.

Things are going to get rough from now on, as XTReme Muscle and XTReme Cheap Shotting begin in earnest down the stretch.

And TRob is likely never to be the big bad one on the blocks any more this season, even when he comes back. When TRob returns, he is apt to be a horizontal player just like Kaun became during the seasons of his knee injuries.

jaybate 3 years, 9 months ago

The Twins have to learn how to man-up, when they don't have big bad TRob backing them up and kicking sand in the faces of the bullies. They have to learn, because they are now it. No more forearm smashes to the face of an unsuspecting opponent and going to the bench to avoid the resulting fury. They are going to have to play rough and suffer the consequences, too. They are about to learn the difference between having all the advantages in the paint and having to fight to survive. The next few teams will be putting them on the floor, because this game tape will show they can be intimidated without TRob.

~Tyshawn had one of his off games, a real stinker, then found his team mates could not compensate, then tried to play his way out of his off game and lost his composure entirely for extended stretches. This is how it goes occasionally, when one trains a 2 guard to play PG on the job. The one thing TT must absolutely learn from this game is that when things are going poorly on offense, a team leader must not panic and must be able to compartmentalize his frustrations and continue to play good defense, no matter how rough it gets. Tyshawn will bounce back though.

~Frank Martin was the first coach to deny KU its wing point game; this was why Tyshawn had 6 TOs. Self took what Martin gave KU, which was the PG Taylor, as initiator. But TT could not measure up on this night.

~Little played hard and got his most minutes (27) this season, and Mario responded with just 1 TO and with the only semblance of rebounding presence KU had. But his shot was way off, and about half his 9 shots were poor shot choices. His defense also alternated between very good and aggressive, and confused. Little has to get more consistent on defense, or KU cannot afford him, hot hand, or not. He can probably do this, but it is now or never time.

jaybate 3 years, 9 months ago

~Reed and Morningstar both played pretty well. Their failings were that they both let KU keep them almost entirely off the boards.

~Despite Brady shooting 50% on four trey attempts, the team shot a horrid 20 percent from trey; that is one point worse than last year's UNI debacle.

~TT, Reed and Morningstart each took some time guarding Pullen and the guy was unconscious. Morningstar had better luck against Pullen in the second half, but still Pullen got 15 second half points.

~Pullen shot 17FGAs and seemed to get to the line every time he touched the ball for stretches. He was quicker than everyone KU put on him. KU fouled him hard several times, but he was deadly at the line. And because KU could not rebound, all his driving kept the Twins on their heels on defense the entire game.

~Elijah came in and was, despite only one TO and hitting a really nice trey in 7 minutes, almost completely out of control and out of the flow of the game. Worst of all he made two decisive mistakes. The first was a cross court throw away at a time, when KU seemed to be making a move. Then he almost single handedly welded KU's coffin with the idiotic technical on his own stuff.

The more Elijah plays the more it is strikingly apparent why he does not play more. He has been slumping and he is now entering the kind of depths Morningstar was in a month ago. The difference, however, between Morningstar's and EJ's slumps is this: Brady had proven for two previous season that he got the D1 game and Self Ball. EJ doesn't give the impression that he gets the D1 game, or Self Ball, not yet. This is the second game in a row where he has thrown the ball across the floor to no one. Improvement for EJ tonight was not throwing it across court into Self's hands. This was a big setback for his game this year. Despite struggling a bit the last few games, he had not actually gotten worse until tonight. If Self could ever get Selby back at full speed, EJ might disappear for the rest of the year. Morningstar could easily do more with the minutes at the point that EJ is given that EJ does. Still, Self , because of how nicked up the team is, has little choice but to keep playing EJ small chunks of minutes, as he did Morningstar, at the trough of his slump, to try to see if he can start a climb out of the slump, as Brady did.

jaybate 3 years, 9 months ago

~Withey did a few good things tonight and, at least, managed to stay on the floor 11 minutes, but he looked generally bad doing them. He grabbed 3 glassvacs in 11 minutes, which in comparison to Kieff's 0 in 20 minutes made Withey seem like a rebounding machine. But 2 TOs, 2 PFs, and nooooo blocks, mean he really wasn't doing much net positive in his time in the game.

~Selby, who thought he was a tough customer, and who seemed like one, has apparently committed the unpardonable Self-sin of not playing hurt, when Self wanted him to the last few games. There is a quid pro quo in Self World. When you become one of his corner stone players, especially an impact guy, you play no matter what, if he asks you to play.

Selby's foot probably really was painful, and it probably really did render him ineffective, and his stress reaction might well have turned into a stress fracture, or worse, had he played earlier, but, in Self World, that sort of thing does not excuse a guy from going out on the floor and playing till he goes down, when the team needs him for his role. So Selby committed the sin of sins. He didn't man-up, when Self asked him to do so.

Selby had probably never been expected to play on an injury that could really put his career at risk before. High school super stars play when they want and sit when they hurt. Selby was probably thinking that if he injured it much worse he could wind up with a long term physical problem that would threaten his draft value. Self appeared to have been thinking I stuck by you when it was uncertain you would ever play, and now you are taking a powder on me and my team, when we need you, even if you are gimpy.

I attended the KU-ISU game and noticed that Selby was told to stand out on the court during warm-ups even though he was doing nothing. I have seen coaches do this to players as a means of shaming them into playing hurt, when a player says his injury is too painful to play on.

jaybate 3 years, 9 months ago

Selby played tonight in the KSU debacle, but not until the game was pretty far gone. He could do very little and appeared to pass the ball to avoid having to shake and bake with it himself. The once great Selby was reduced to trying to keep the ball from sticking, except for six times when he tried to go on his ankle and was really ineffective. He looked every bit as injured out there tonight against KSU as Mario Little did his first season at KU, when Self appeared to play Little into a season long injury.

But the coup d'gras was Self leaving Selby on the floor down the stretch, when the game was lost and the second string was in the game. This appeared to be Self rubbing Selby's nose in it. This appeared to be Self saying you're going to play on it whether you like it or not and you're going to play on it and risk injuring it permanently when the game is already lost. This appeared to be Self saying that you don't mean diddledy squat to me super star, unless you are willing to play hurt, or not.

Before Selby got in the game, and during the game, I could not help but notice that Josh Selby apeared to have lost his happy, ebullient expression that has so characterized him until recently. The love and trust of Self and the sense of indebtedness to Self, appeared to be broken. Josh appeared to have been questioning, whether he ought to have been even "maybe" for playing against KSU.

Selby went out and played as Coach Self demanded. And Selby stayed on the floor pointlessly risking longer lasting injury playing mop up minutes in a lost game. But Selby did not look enthusiastic about doing it. And Self did not look enthusiastic about Selby doing it. And in the end what we appeared to witness was Self, frustrated and humiliated in a lop sided loss, trying to win a war of wills with his 5-star OAD.

jaybate 3 years, 9 months ago

Selby played tonight in the KSU debacle, but not until the game was pretty far gone. He could do very little and appeared to pass the ball to avoid having to shake and bake with it himself. The once great Selby was reduced to trying to keep the ball from sticking, except for six times when he tried to go on his ankle and was really ineffective. He looked every bit as injured out there tonight against KSU as Mario Little did his first season at KU, when Self appeared to play Little into a season long injury.

But the coup d'gras was Self leaving Selby on the floor down the stretch, when the game was lost and the second string was in the game. This appeared to be Self rubbing Selby's nose in it. This appeared to be Self saying you're going to play on it whether you like it or not and you're going to play on it and risk injuring it permanently when the game is already lost. This appeared to be Self saying that you don't mean diddledy squat to me super star, unless you are willing to play hurt, or not.

Before Selby got in the game, and during the game, I could not help but notice that Josh Selby apeared to have lost his happy, ebullient expression that has so characterized him until recently. The love and trust of Self and the sense of indebtedness to Self, appeared to be broken. Josh appeared to have been questioning, whether he ought to have been even "maybe" for playing against KSU.

Selby went out and played as Coach Self demanded. And Selby stayed on the floor pointlessly risking longer lasting injury playing mop up minutes in a lost game. But Selby did not look enthusiastic about doing it. And Self did not look enthusiastic about Selby doing it. And in the end what we appeared to witness was Self, frustrated and humiliated in a lop sided loss, trying to win a war of wills with his 5-star OAD.

jaybate 3 years, 9 months ago

One wonders how this clash of wills will play out in coming games. Selby is almost sure to be drafted on potential alone, if he does not acquire an injury that GMs would perceive as making his future health a risk. Self is in the position of needing to push him to play ASAP, something that might lead Selby to the very kind of ankle injury that might make NBA GM's uneasy after this season. Selby is in the position of being able to be drafted on potential, if he avoids playing too soon on the present injury and turning it into a chronic one.

Bill Self and Josh Selby, a coach and player who seemed so enamored with each other only a few weeks ago, now seem like the honey moon is over. Here's to hoping they find their way to a more amicable relationship soon. They need each other pulling together again. And we need both of them pulling together again.

~This was probably just one of those awful games good teams have in mid to late February that say that helps good teams get over being too full of themselves, as Knight put it afterwords, and helps them refocus on the business at hand.

~But this team less a healthy TRob and Selby may be in for another beat down, unless the Twins man-up to the intimidation they are about to face.

rwhawk 3 years, 9 months ago

Your Selby v. Self conspiracy theory is interesting. Do you really believe that?

jaybate 3 years, 9 months ago

It is my opining of a best guess, but it is only a guess and one based on only my remote observations, and only so far. How's that for some caveats? :-)

Further, I don't believe it. I don't believe in anything but god. :-)

I have morals and loyalties and cooperate honestly through ethical systems and make reasoned assessments and choices, to what ever extent my abilities and my flaws permit. Belief I reserve for god.

I also acknowledge the existence of, and a difference between, cooperative relationships and competitive relationships. And my experience indicates to me that what starts as a cooperative relationship can become partly, or completely competitive, and vice versa, as a result of unexpected change in circumstances.

What I opine above about is based on what my eyes observe and on the facts of the situation that I have seen reported, and on the kind of competitive and cooperative relationship dynamics this circumstance would seem possible, or probable, to lead to.

What I propose is, therefore, essentially a speculation about what two actors in a coach-player game might do, given divergent goals and differing incentives of play that face Self and Selby.

Games are not conspiracies, they are competitions, though aspects of games could include conspiracies, I suppose. My speculation posits no conspiracy, just formerly largely cooperative interplay turned into now perhaps significantly competitive interplay.

What I propose is a speculation about what strategy and tactics two actors in the injury-changed game space Self and Selby suddenly inhabit might resort to. I propose that Selby's stress reaction injury, and his agenda about being drafted at the end of the season might lead him to more competitive conflict with Self's agenda, and less cooperative harmony with it. It is just a guess that seems to fit what little I can know as a fan about their coach-player relationship.

My speculation is only a speculation. It could easily be entirely wrong.

But my speculation is not a belief, as I noted above, nor is it a conspiracy theory.

jaybate 3 years, 9 months ago

A conspiracy theory, or a conspiracy hypothesis, as seems most often the alleged case (hypothesis indicating a speculation, theory indicating a proven speculation in my parlance), is a kind of speculation about how two or more persons cooperate secretly to alter the outcome of a situation to achieve their agenda.

My speculation is neither a conspiracy theory, nor a conspiracy hypothesis, because I propose an explicit, emerging, potentially competitive and so possibly conflicted and adversarial relationship between Self and Selby in this situation. They appear not to be conspiring secretly together; rather, they appear overtly at odds in my speculation, whether they are discussing it publicly, or not.

To be slightly more specific, I propose a possible model of their relationship in terms of a two player game with considerable asymmetry in rules, opportunity sets of moves, differing objectives and goals, and differing incentives.

Again, conspiracy theories/hypotheses refer to persons working in secret alliance to achieve some mutual objective, usually with some greater mutual goal in mind.

Though you certainly did not ask, for what little it may be worth, my rules of thumb regarding conspiracy are:

a) avoid conspiracy theories (unless they have been verified);

b) consider only conspiracy hypothesis, and then only if what looks like a duck has a preponderance of evidence supporting the duck/conspiracy hypothesis; and

c) never call a conspiracy hypothesis that is unverified a conspiracy theory, because you are misinforming, or disinforming others.

Next, some IMHO sage advice about conspiracies.

Know that conspiracies in real life, especially in family and work life, but also in politics and economics involving everything from grand strategy, to piddling little turf disputes in bureaucracies great and small, to what vacation a family is going to go on, are almost as common as grains of sand at a beach. Most are relatively harmless and legal, whether honorable, or otherwise.

jaybate 3 years, 9 months ago

If you and your wife discuss how you are going to talk your child, or your aging parent, into doing some activity without letting him/her know the details and decisions of your discussions about how to persuade him, you are partaking in a likely legal conspiracy to influence your child, or aging parent, toward a desired objective in the grander goal of pursuing what you think are that person's best interests. That's likely a legal conspiracy in my parlance, which I realize is not the same as conventional legal terminology.

And IMHO, anyone who tries to tell you there are few conspiracies, great or small, legal, or illegal, probably doesn't understand, or agree with, my definition of conspiracy.

And anyone who describes other person's assertions as conspiracy theories, when no conspiracy is posited, either doesn't understand a conspiracy, as I define it, or wants to smear one and one's assertion...but I digress. :-)

Anyone who has ever served on a committee of any kind for any length of time partakes IMHO in legal conspiracies to get any remotely controversial issue approved in committee. Any savvy person knows that little is ever really authentically debated in a formal committee meeting, except that which all parties want no action on anyway.

All the debate and consensus building for a required, or desired, action by a committee has mostly been done "behind the scenes," before the meeting, often without the knowledge of certain committee members, so that when the committee finally meets, there is enough consensus already to pass the issue without authentic, substantive and potentially polarizing and grid-locking debate.

Conspiracy, in my parlance, is not just some anomalous, illegal activity involving some persons out to commit the obvious and odious moral evil of assassinating a honest, decent, legitimately elected leader.

Conspiracy, commonly called working behind the scenes, or some other euphemism like pork barrelling in the Congress and Senate, is actually how most peaceful committee activities are accomplished, when there are contentious issues that a majority, but not all committee members can come to agree upon.

Without legal, peaceful conspiracies, probably no family, no team, no university, no corporation, no state, no Federal government, and no central bank centric new world order, could ever bridge certain sharply contentious and divisive issues, where the willing compliance of some of those becomes unlikely.

jaybate 3 years, 9 months ago

Again to me a legal conspiracy describes a kind of legal consensus building; i.e., a group of two or more persons allying to pursue sufficient consensus to get something passed through a representative body, like a committee. I may be utterly wrong about assigning the name legal conspiracy to this sort of thing, but that it is what it seems to in effect be, when small groups organize behind the scenes to build consensus on committees, so as to avoid polarizing, contentious debates in formal committee meetings.

Alas, because conspiracy is secret consensus building for an action, it is a particularly attractive means of alliance to gain objectives in possibly illegal, and certainly contentious activities, like, say, subordinating sovereign republics to central banks, for one example.

Illegal conspiracies ought never to be used IMHO, because I'm a law abiding type, except in the very rare case where the laws and related administrative systems have been hopelessly high jacked and compromised by immoral and unethical means (the American Revolution appropriating governance from a British government that lurched backward into a derepresentative restoration of authoritarian monarchy being one example often cited as being morally justified). Basically, illegal conspiracies are wrong and I'm against them.

But even legal conspiracies ought to be used very, very, very sparingly and transparency of means of consensus building ought to be fostered, as much as institutional agreement can enable, to achieve fair efficiencies in courses of action, rather than unfair efficiencies (asymmetric efficiencies) serving mostly those few legally conspiring together.

jaybate 3 years, 9 months ago

Finally it seems wise to be vigilant and a bit suspicious of all secret committees, regardless of their expressed intentions, because secret committees sooner, or later, appear historically to descend into narrow conspiracies yielding narrowly efficient decisions and narrowly efficient actions favoring a small segment of persons, regardless of whether their actions are in fact then legal, or not, and so lead to instability and potential catastrophe in the greater game space known as society.

So, in summation, yep, I think it is possible that Self and Selby could be a little bit at odds on whether Selby should play, or wait for his ankle to heal fully.

This is hardly a new issue of conflict between coaches and players. Every player has to decide just how much of his health now and in the future he is willing to sacrifice to a coach and a team. And coaches and players sometimes have not seen eye to eye on this issue for a long time.

Ask many old and crippled professional football and basektball players, if they think they made the right choice to sacrifice their bodies by playing injured for their coaches and their teams 20-30 years ago and I have read stories, where a significant number today have said they were foolish to have done so, and had they the chance to do it over again, would not do so again.

Maybe I'm all wrong, but my best guess at present seems at least a possible explanation worth considering in trying to understand what makes a coach play a player with an injured ankle late in a game that has already been lost, and from which several starters have been removed.

But as always, there are other possible explanations. It is also possible that Selby wants to play on the injury, but that he is so limited that Self was only wanting him to learn how to play on the injury, when Self had run out of other opportunities to win the game, as Self suggested, or that Self and Selby agree that he needed some extra minutes to get used to playing on the bum ankle with the stress reaction (former, or extant).

It is also, I suppose, possible that Selby needs to learn the difference between pain and injury, as some coaches and players and sports writers refer to this issue, but I could not even speculate on that not having any but the sketchiest access to relevant information about his injury, or expertise in that sort of thing.

So I opined as I did.

And your guess is as good as mine.

Any opinions but Self's and Selby's are highly speculative at this time.

Mine is just what I could come up with after the game.

AirCapJay 3 years, 9 months ago

jaybate... I think you are full of it regarding Self and Selby. Are you a journalism wannabe? Do you want to work for ESPN someday?

jaybate 3 years, 9 months ago

No, I self-actualized quite some time ago.

No, I don't want to work for ESPN.

I just care about the KU basketball legacy and like to discuss it with others that do also.

hawksfan08 3 years, 9 months ago

Disagree on Selby. Players who don't want to play wouldn't have been dressed for every game. I take it the other way. Selby's poor attitude resulted from wanting to play and not being allowed to until the game was out of reach.

Mike Bratisax 3 years, 9 months ago

You mean in the first 5 min? That's about how long this game was in doubt.

Michael Luby 3 years, 9 months ago

No people, Jaybate has a perfectly valid theory, though he may be playing the part of devils advocate intentionally. Clearly Selby is not 100% and clearly he wasnt happy about playing mop up minutes which was most likely an attempt by Coach to discipline the young man and show him who is king.

SaulGood 3 years, 9 months ago

I would also like to comment that I have enjoyed all of Jaybate's analysis. Fully admitting that this loss still burns me up a little, I am not impressed with JB's speculation about Self vs. Selby. It's not that I don't believe it could happen; I'm sure lots goes on behind the scenes that makes CS seem like a whole different person than PR Self. I am going to need a whole lot more proof than "I was at the KU vs. ISU game" to believe the massive amount of script you spent on this, JB. This is a pretty harsh indictment involving treatment of a freshman collegiate athlete by his most important role model. So while you are most wise in the ways of basketball analysis, it's downright irresponsible to be bandying about these kinds of speculation. If you want to enter the arena of exposition journalism, you had better bring some real proof upon which to perch your throne.

Hank Cross 3 years, 9 months ago

If Selby is injured to the point of limiting his effectiveness, then there is no sense to play him, especially during mop up time. If Self wants Selby to play despite the fact that he is ineffective because of injury and is risking serious career-complicating injury, then I wouldn't blame Selby for looking out for himself and trying to sit to protect his draft value.

Gregor Southard 3 years, 9 months ago

I was wrong last night: Jaybate will respond with 3000 lines. I guess he thinks his analysis is important.

LAJayhawk 3 years, 9 months ago

With all due respect jaybate,

I am absolutely amazed that someone who just three days early said:

"You can live drinking from the water in the half full part of the glass. You can die of thirst drinking from the half empty part of the glass."

Would THEN go on to make one of the most cynical, conspiratorial and derisive attacks against our coach and our young, talented freshman. How often you essentially refer to Coach Self as a godlike figure, yet on this occasion you reduce him to a bitter, power-hungry and, quite frankly, childish presence looking to fracture his own team chemistry simply to make a belittling point. This is quite an accusation you make, jaybate, with nothing but pure speculation and zero hard evidence.

I understand you are probably spitballing to a point here, but this is a massive leap you take.

I'm quite surprised at your line of thought, here, jaybate. Quite surprised.

jaybate 3 years, 9 months ago

With all due respect LAJayhawk,

First, coaches and players have long struggled with this issue of whether to play, or not, on an injury and I am absolutely amazed that someone that posts here frequently and follows sports would not recognize this as a historically sometimes conflicted issue.

So: IMHO, I am hardly taking a leap at all here.

Second, your careless and inappropriate use of the terms cynical and conspiratorial suggest you either do not know what the those two words mean, or you are irresponsibly using them to smear someone whom you disagree with.

Let me explain the meaning of these words to you and then restate what I think.

Cynical, according to the first definition in Merriam Webster Online refers to being "contemptuously distrustful of human nature and motives."

I feel no contempt for, nor distrust of, Coach Self's motives whatsoever regarding Selby's playing with injuries. It appears to me that Self wants Selby to play with his injury, because he honestly believes it is the right thing for Selby to do and apparently based on the medical advice he has access to, and based on his extensive experience as a reputable college basketball coach, he honestly thinks it would be okay for Selby to play with this injury. Self apparently must think this, because he did in fact put him in the game and then leave him in the game when the outcome appeared no longer in doubt, and when he was deploying less than his first string in the closing minutes.

jaybate 3 years, 9 months ago

There is also a second definition of cynical. It hinges on thinking that a person is largely concerned with their own agenda. This secondary definition seems irrelevant to this, or most situations, because I have never met a person in my life that was not largely concerned with their own agenda. Sometimes that agenda is winning a ring and making a huge salary as a coach. Sometimes that agenda is helping players develop as persons and as players. Sometimes the agenda is both. In Coach Self's case it seems beyond question to me that it is both. He is a very driven competitor seeking to get better and better and win as many games as he can, and as many rings as he can. And he is a very driven teacher trying to help players as players and as persons get better and better and become the best they can become under his tutelage, so that they will have the best chance in life they can have. Calling me cynical for thinking he is both of these things seems a ridiculous use of the word cynical to me.

So you see, calling me cynical is patently absurd and indicates you don't know the meaning of these words, or you fling them like mud with those you disagree with.

Next, calling me conspiratorial betrays a similar lack of understanding of a word on your part.

A conspiracy refers to two or more persons allying secretly, sometimes illegally, to achieve an objective in pursuit of a goal.

I may be many things, but I am not two or more persons allying secretly to achieve an objective in pursuit of a goal. :-)

I also am not suggesting that Bill Self may be conspiring with anyone to try to make Selby play with an injury.

It follows then, like night the day, that you are thoroughly wrong in calling me conspiratorial.

Of course it is not cynical, nor conspiratorial, to speculate about whether Coach Self and a player are in conflict over whether he should play with an injury, or not.

I am a huge Bill Self fan.

I am a huge Josh Selby fan.

It appears to me that their relationship has become conflicted regarding when Selby is ready to play after his injury.

This is not the end of the world, if they are.

Coaches and players move in and out of conflicts of many kinds from time to time, and often resolve their differences.

And I could be completely incorrect in my opining regarding this situation.

But cynical and conspiratorial?

Not a chance.

So then we are left with a big question: why would a graduate of the University of Kansas so carelessly and inappropriately use the terms cynical and conspiratorial? :-)

Rock Chalk!

LAJayhawk 3 years, 9 months ago

Jaybate, I know it is standard procedure for you to respond to a criticism of a post of yours with a long-winded diatribe looking to diminish the value of the other post by attempting to either (a) reduce the perceived intelligence of the other commenter by attempting to semantically dissect and defeat his/her words or (b) make a sweeping psychological analysis of the other poster using language designed to make others believe you are an expert on such subjects. By using some obtuse line of logic you will often deduce that the person standing in opposition to you must clearly be chemically unbalanced or – to use one of your favorites – projecting their self-deficiencies onto others, i.e. you.

First, as one who has taken a trip down path (b) with you on more than one occasion, I thank you for not heading down that path again. That line of argument had grown quite tired. :-)

Now, as to your semantic discussion, I am quite comfortable with my understanding of the word cynical, and I also know it to be quite apropos for this particular opinion. Just to have a point of reference, Dictionary.com defines cynical as “Believing that people are motivated by self-interest; distrustful of human sincerity or integrity.”

Bill Self has said on several occasions that he has kept Josh from playing, as he does not wish to further aggravate the injury. He also said the following in Monday’s post game, a quote from this article in which you voiced your opinion: “’I wasn’t going to even play Josh,’ Self said. ‘We had nobody else we could go to. He only practiced one day. Hopefully he can get back in the flow and be a contributor in a big way.’”

You suggest that Self actually wanted Selby back playing much sooner, and that Selby is the one holding out. There is no evidence of this, and, on the contrary, it flies directly in the face of what Self is saying publically. You also suggest that Selby is holding out in order to not risk injury that will hurt him in this upcoming draft, and that Self wants to play him risking further injury because he, Coach Self, won’t have another shot at using him next year. All parts of that argument show that you believe both parties are not only acting out of self-interest, but that is their SOLE reason for their actions. Additionally, you believe that Self thinks the opposite of what he is saying, and, therefore, he is insincere with his words.

You are being cynical.

LAJayhawk 3 years, 9 months ago

As for conspiratorial, I was, of course, not suggesting you were conspiring. That is a silly false reading of my post and actually suggests a severe lack of reading comprehension skills.

Actually, I’m quite surprised that an individual that spends so much time crafting cleaver passages and may, perhaps, hold a degree from a major university does not seem to have the requisite reading comprehension skills. ;-)

I was, obviously, referring to your belief that Self and his coaching staff are conspiring to punish Josh and, thereby, risk further injury limiting his future financial gain to make a point to him and the rest of the teammates that they, the coaches, are in charge. That is quite an accusation. And it surprises me coming from you.

As to the battle between coach and player as to when said player might be capable to come back from an injury, yes, as a long time sports fan and former athlete, I am very familiar with this moral, ethical, health, what’s-best-for-the-team dilemma. There is rarely an easy answer and often a gray line. However, my surprise with your opinion is not in this regard, but rather the fact that you so clearly – and cynically – believe that Selby does not want to come back and that Self wants him to. You believe this even though there is absolutely no proof to back it up. How can you be certain it is not Selby who desperately wants to play and Self who is holding him out in order to have him healthier down the line when it matters more? Everything Self has said publicly backs up that line of thought.

I am a fan of the Chicago Bears, and this belief of yours is quite similar to the uproar over Jay Cutler’s absence from almost the entire second half of the NFC championship game. People called him a wimp and said he shouldn’t have pulled himself out. The truth, of course, was that he had a torn MCL, tried to go in the 3rd quarter, couldn’t throw and the coaching staff pulled him. Cutler wanted to play. They told him no.

My post was exactly what it said: surprise. I am surprised that such an optimistic, positive spin guy such as yourself can look at something so cynically. As, yes, whether you accept it or not, it is cynical. You state something that goes against all the evidence we have, and believe our coach is on a power trip.

In your response to another poster, I see that you say you don’t actually believe it. As I suggested in my post you may have just been tossing out an idea. And I suppose you could be correct. I was simply surprised that you would go such a negative, cynical route.

But I suppose we were all frustrated and irritated with that game. I can’t blame you for letting it get the better of your emotions.

It can happen to the best of us.

Keep your head up and drink the portion that’s half full.

Rock Chalk.

jaybate 3 years, 9 months ago

Look, I completely exposed you. You turned it over and lost. Give it up.

LAJayhawk 3 years, 9 months ago

Hahaha. Oh, jaybate. That was priceless. Thank you. :-)

leonard 3 years, 9 months ago

Bad news LAJayhawk...jaybate owned you and exposed your egocentric reason for entering the conversation.

Your reply was not an airball...but it barely clipped the front of the rim.

LAJayhawk 3 years, 9 months ago

Creating multiply personalities now, I see. That's quite sad and pretty pathetic, jaybate. It's actually rather depressing to argue with a guy who gets so emotional over anonymous internet boards. I won't bother you anymore, Mr. Jaybate. Clearly you are far too fragile.

Rock Chalk. And best of luck in all your endeavors. :-)

rockingthechalk 3 years, 9 months ago

um... this whole thing is weird but how exactly did you expose him jaybate? I'm a big fan of your posts jaybate. I always think they are informative and interesting. not to mention creative. I don't mean to put myself into someone else's discussion but you seem to go a little overboard here. lajayhawk made a fair point. you don't have any evidence to back up the claim you are making about Josh and it seems like you are just trying to dismiss him. His point about calling that point cynical seems fair and he defended it. Why do you follow that up with "give it up?" Seems like kind of a "shut up" response you hear from a kid on the playground.

oh well. I still like your posts, jaybate, so keep it up... just hope you don't keep up this weird dismissive attitude. I like most of lajayhawks posts too. and I don't think he was "exposed." I actually think he's quite right. just my opinion.

ancient_hawk 3 years, 9 months ago

This is what I saw:

Self sniffed this one out early. Dos Morii and TT with gigantic heads. Alert: object lesson coming.

The peanut gallery is going on about his "horrible coaching job". Meh.

While I hate a loss, and especially a loss to the ...Cats, I sat and literally LOL at Self's response.

"You're sooooo damn good? You're #1 with a bullet? Well, go do it your way then. Go make asses of yourselves, and then we'll talk. And believe me, we WILL talk! Or rather, I'll talk while you burn out a couple of treadmills."

Coaching is about a lot more than X's and O's, and I admire his ability to mentally reload and consider even THIS game a teaching tool for the post-season. Personally, I wouldn't have been able to do it. I would have pulled a Frank Martin/BobbyKnight/Woody Hayes and punched somebody in the throat during a timeout.

My only concern was the whipped-dog look some of them had. I would rather they at least go down swinging. (not literally, of course)

JHWK 3 years, 9 months ago

I agree - this reminds me of that loss at OSU a few years ago.....

The team's response is what matters. It troubles me when TT cannot step up and lead/pass his way out of a shooting slump. He doesn't have those genes. Marcus, either. When he's off, he can't rally others. We don't have that leader on this team, and that could be our downfall - but if we have another streak the the 4 or 5 games before last night, all bets are off. Like every team in the field this year, we all have chinks in our armor. Playing without exposing them is what March is all about.

Good job K-State - you've given our juniors (and the team) motivation that they aren't so darn good. I still think it'll be a stretch for them to make the tourney unless they can win out or make it to the Big 12 Tourney Final.

Rock Chalk!

lincase 3 years, 9 months ago

Bill Self was quoted as saying that he didn't want to play Selby, but there wasn't any other option (or something like that). Any thoughts?

ancient_hawk 3 years, 9 months ago

Straight up psychology. Killed three birds with one stone. Put TT and EJ in their places, and called Selby out for not playing through the pain of what Self apparently feels is no longer a dangerous injury but a nagging one.

steamboat 3 years, 9 months ago

so who quit first the team or Self? all season the twins have been shooting threes and all of a sudden Self chews them out for shooting threes. I think he was grasping for something. Last nite was a complete embarrassment. they made k-suck look like a top 10 team. Maybe it's down to earth time for the boys but man it sure as hell didn't have to come against k-suck

KUFan90 3 years, 9 months ago

I think his conspiracy theory is a load of crap.

simonjhawk 3 years, 9 months ago

Jaybate, you are as verbose as you are ignorant about the game of basketball. Bill Self is a genious, but he is coaching teen-age kids. Obviously, you have never coached. If you had, you would realize how much adversity, like one of your players having their mother die during a season, influencies the overall mental attitude of a team. Another aspect that influencies how a team plays is injuries. Coaches cannot plan for injuries, only react to them. Another thing that can cause crazy things to happen on any given night is the previous games that the group of teen-aged kids played last. Did you even see the end of the Colorado/KSU game? The Cats missed a well fought and deserved win by .1 seconds. Ku strolled to an easy victory in their last encounter. I do not beleive in any excuses even the ones I listed above, they are just excuses. The fact is the team that came ready to play and needed the win to avoid their certain date with the NIT, played as good as they could play on their own home court. The team with the swelled heads for being ranked #1 in the country came in expecting to beat a down and out loser team. Our beloved Jayhawks obviously thought they were going to win just because they were wearing KU jerseys. They figured if they just showed up with their tennis shoes tied, they would be declared the winner because they were the mighty KU Jayhawks and they were playing a team that they walked all over the last time they met. The truth is when one set of kids come ready to play and has their best player scores 38 points and the other team just shows up then the team that comes ready to compete wins. I hate to lose to KSU as much as any KU fan but this will help us more than it hurts us in the long run. Our talented group of athletes will realize what their coach has been trying to tell them all year, if you don't come ready to play, especially defense, then you will get beat. The Selby conspiracy is a joke. Good coaches do not publicly berate their star players but they do make them earn their minutes and they do protect them from future injuries, if possible. He did not plan on playing Selby in this game, but figured that if he put him in and he made a couple of 3 point shots it might spark the rest of the team enough for a come back but give some credit to Frank Martin for not letting KU take any ungarded 3's. We did not deserve to be ranked ahead of Texas because they came in to our house and ended a 69 game home court winning spree. In the end we will be a better team becasuse "what doesn't kill us makes us stronger". Not one of our players died last night but we did get stronger. Enjoy the game Saturday because we will kill Colorado!

leonard 3 years, 9 months ago

Try a couple of paragraphs next time...it'll help you organize your thoughts.

jayhawker_97 3 years, 9 months ago

jaybate, just out of curiousity.. did you get paid by kusports.com to post?

clevelandjayhawker 3 years, 9 months ago

I think i enjoy reading the Jaybate posts more than the kusports ones...

clevelandjayhawker 3 years, 9 months ago

I think i enjoy reading the Jaybate posts more than the kusports ones...

clevelandjayhawker 3 years, 9 months ago

I think i enjoy reading the Jaybate posts more than the kusports ones...

LAJayhawk 3 years, 9 months ago

For the first time I can remember, I didn't watch the last few minutes of a KU game. I turned it off with about 2:38 on the clock. I've watched us play to the final whistle during many a blow out in the past, but I just couldn't do it this time. It was an absolute mess, and we really weren't in it the entire game. I felt like our Juniors had no interest in this game, and I just couldn't give my interest in the end. So I shut it off and cleaned my house.

That was simply a bad game. A bad, bad, heaping pile of donkey feces type game.

A Heaping pile.

Heaping.

And now it's over.

I still feel like punching a kitten, but that will go away soon.

That crap factory of a competition has ended. It's over. Done. It now only exists in the ghost film that is the human memory.

Tomorrow is a new day, and I feel like moving forward.

Mrs. Landingham, what's next?

Lone_salina_kufan 3 years, 9 months ago

Colorado is next. And I feel sorry for them. They are going to have an angry team on their hands.

LAJayhawk 3 years, 9 months ago

Did I mention heaping?

Heaping and steaming.

To quite Jeff Goldblum's Ian Malcolm from Jurassic Park:

"That's one big pile of s**t."

But excrement is exactly that: leftover waste of what's been digested. Learn from the game and move on. Leave the crap behind.... so to speak.

sleepy33 3 years, 9 months ago

+1000, for the sentiment and especially for the West Wing quote.

juke4jay 3 years, 9 months ago

OMG! It was a Valentines Day Massacre (revisitied). Ouch, I have a lot of crow to eat now with my KSU friends at work and back home..... is crow best served warm or cold, and will ketchup help?

rwhawk 3 years, 9 months ago

Just tell them that you're happy they won't end up in the NIT now.

jayhawksbiggestfan 3 years, 9 months ago

Everyone forgets that Tyrel Reed is also playing with a bone bruise on his foot. I know what that feels like because I played girls high school basketball and i could not even play for 3 weeks and even then my heel was still a bit painful. That said, Our bigs did not do much to help. Kudos to fear the beard. Now that was ......well superman would have given up 20 on him last night. I have never seen a player get torched more than Morningstar and Taylor. I suspect they are still at KU but in the burn unit in KU Med Center this morning.. T-Rob was very much needed. Selby , I can understand. I am sure we will be a better team after that bully beat down we took. We still have only lost 2 games so far this year. I refuse to believe we will go down easy in the March Madness. tourney. Just time to reload . Get healthy all. God bless. I still love all my Jayhawks.

jaybate 3 years, 9 months ago

I don't forget this, so you must amend your remark as follows:

Everyone but jaybate forgets that Tyrel Reed is also playing with a bone bruise....

Of course, I suspect others are like me and are not forgetting too. :-)

jayhawksbiggestfan 3 years, 9 months ago

“You look at it from a positive standpoint, we held them to 46 points if Jacob didn’t play. That’s a good thing,” Self cracked. Now that was funny sheet. I don't care what you say.

doolindalton 3 years, 9 months ago

I don't suppose even this horrendous defeat will do anything to inspire the coaching staff to bring about a change in the god-awful way KU shoots freethrows. No, it's not the reason the Jayhawks were dominated on both ends by a mediocre (at best) team, but a journey of million miles begins with the first step. Raising our last in the B12 free throw percentage could very well save more important games down the stretch.

Andy Tweedy 3 years, 9 months ago

I think you're getting a little ahead of yourself. One lost won't change the fortunes of the entire season.

saad007 3 years, 9 months ago

dude if you think we will still get a number one seed after such an embarrassing loss, you are in denial! And it is not the fact we lost by 20, it is HOW we did it

RuffHawk 3 years, 9 months ago

In 08 we lost 3 of 4 later in the season than this 1 loss & backed into a 1 seed & who cares what teams are playing their best ball in FEBRUARY!!! no one has seen this team play its best ball yet...or come close even touching their potential. There is plenty of time to get healthy a pull it together... cuz the motor that runs this team is TRob

KU_alum_2001 3 years, 9 months ago

He didn't say it would change the fortunes of the entire season but I agree that unless we win the Big 12 tourney, I don't see any way we get a #1 seed. I think you have to assume that if we don't win the conference tourney, there's no way the Big 12 is getting two #1 seeds, not with the likes of OSU, Duke, and all those Big East teams, and we're not going to get it over UT if they win the regular season, beat us, and we're not the conference tourney champs.

Craig Lang 3 years, 9 months ago

I disagree. Yes, if the tourney field was set today, we would have a 2 seed. However, it is likely that Pitt, Duke, OSU and UT will each lose at least one more game between now and conference tournament time. Even if only 2 of the 4 lose a game, I think Kansas can move back into a top spot if the team can win the rest of its regular season games. If Texas and Kansas make it to the Big 12 championship game, then I think both will get 1 seeds.

That being said, the Jayhawks should still strive to win the Big 12 tourney.

NH_JHawk 3 years, 9 months ago

Now that was some awful basketball last night. I cant remember a game where it seemed like the entire team's heads were not into it. TT and Mk leading the way. I find it troubling, especially after reading about the twins' attitudes just last week, that Kieff would throw a nasty elbow like that. Lucky he wasn't ejected. Not sure I agreed with the T on EJ though.

Two things I found humorous: Does anyone else notice that K-State fans boo every single play/call against them? My surround speakers got quite a work out from them booing everything. Laughable. Also, if you ever need any proof that KU is the single biggest game of KSU's entire season (every year), just ask the students who stormed the court.

Korndogg 3 years, 9 months ago

I watch a lot of KSU games because I like them to be good but I don't ever want to lose to them. Anyways every game they play they boo every single call. I think Pullen could hit a ref in the face and they would still boo the refs. I also don't agree with the T on EJ. I don't think it should be a T but if I was Self I wouldn't put up with it.

This is a rough loss and I am a little concerned about our leadership. At times I feel like Reed is the only one that is trying to lead.

ku_mom 3 years, 9 months ago

Yes, I noticed the K State fans booing! They are not very bright basektball fans! Especially last night, when I do think the calls were going their way!

Dale Sprague 3 years, 9 months ago

February 14, 1929, the night Al Capone's Italian South Side Chicago gang pinned seven members of Bugs Malone's Irish North Side gang against a dark wall and with calm, steady precision mercilessly slaughtered Bugsy's best.  While the execution squad was several in number surely one stood out, taking glee in revenging the machine gunning Capone's headquarters had suffered earlier.  The St. Valentine's Day massacre by Tommy guns was quick, bloody, complete while its mastermind Capone vacationed in Florida.

February 14, 2011, Frankie Martin's West Side gang revenged its humiliation of only two weeks earlier by Billy Self's East Side Philly gang.  The slaughter was absolute, remorseless and thorough as Jacob "The Man" Pullen buried 38 of his gang's 86 shots in the hapless victims.  As the smoke cleared the bowels of Bramlage Billy's bloody and beaten survivors boarded the ambulance to Allen Field Hospital.  Only time will tell whether this East Side gang will rise from abject destruction or feed upon themselves like Sharks in frenzy of bloodied waters.

The Jayhawk Nation, though slumped over its rail naked as a Jay Bird, tarred, feathered, humiliated and completely plucked, will never forget this Valentine's massacre.  Beware of the Phog;  beware of vengeance.

GeoHawk15 3 years, 9 months ago

After Coach Self called his last TO with 10 minutes left, it seemed to me that he backed off coaching the team. It was almost like he was willing to concede the game to teach the guys a lesson. Sink or swim, if you will, and boy did they sink. Did anyone else get that vibe?

jebloom22 3 years, 9 months ago

I saw that too. He just smiled and let them lose. It looked like an "I told you so" moment, but who knows what was really going on. Definitely disappointed in the performance. I won't call anyone out, but this team needs to learn how to fight back from real adversity. This is too much of a mental game for our current roster.

KU_FanSince75 3 years, 9 months ago

Yes, but in the post-game interview, he said that they are going to work on things that will make them better. It will be a hard week of practice.

ancient_hawk 3 years, 9 months ago

It happened a lot sooner than that. It just became obvious in the last ten minutes. See upthread.

ku11 3 years, 9 months ago

I'm sure KSU is making a new t-shirt for this win. I've seen one that "2 out of 3 isn't bad" for when they beat Nebraska at home a couple of times in football. I can't stand KSU fans!!!

ku11 3 years, 9 months ago

I'm sure KSU is making a new t-shirt for this win. I've seen one that says "2 out of 3 isn't bad" for when they beat Nebraska at home a couple of times in football. I can't stand KSU fans!!!

steamboat 3 years, 9 months ago

when that's all they got it's understandable. Ku fans can makeup shirts that say " 2 and 24 ain't it about time" OR my favorite " last 23 years 2 Championships - last 23 years 2 wins for K-suck in Bramlage"

tis4tim 3 years, 9 months ago

KU played so poorly last night. I hope the pollsters are ashamed of themselves. :)

Really, though, fine coaching job by Frank Martin. Getting some of his players to quit on the team and suckering us into thinking they were a bunch of basket cases was a shrewd move and it worked wonderfully.

Thank you to Reed for showing up and playing his heart out.

TT was awful.

The twins reputations as forearm shiver specialists seem to be no longer contained to them. KU as a team is suffering their stupidity in the fouls department.

EJ earned himself long-term doghouse status. His mouthing off "under his breath" about coach Self when he exited the floor after he threw the ball away tells me he is beyond frustrated with his playing time. The smack-talking was further proof. I have a sinking feeling about the possibility of a transfer.

Withey is lost.

Little is shoot first ask questions later.

Almost no Selby or Releford. Seems like they were just in to provide a few extra fouls and protect some other guys in that regard.

The regular season title is now Texas' to lose.

Disappointing, and we really missed Robinson's presence, but we'll bounce back. We simply have to get healthy as a team, otherwise I don't see us doing much damage in March.

ancient_hawk 3 years, 9 months ago

Anyone else old enough to remember Kevin McHale in his Celtic days? His nickname? "The Black Hole", because once the ball went in, it never came back out. McHale should bequeath the nickname to Rio.

ancient_hawk 3 years, 9 months ago

Guess that shows my stupidity for not thinking in terms of skin melanin. The one hot game went to his head. The decision making and sweet mid-range turned into "shortest distance between two points? from his hands to the goal."

ancient_hawk 3 years, 9 months ago

Oh, and shag PC with a red-hot poker. I despise group identity politics.

Ken Sedgwick 3 years, 9 months ago

That was a JEAN-U-WHINE asswhoopin. The K-State players were great. The K-State fans sucked.

tahawk81 3 years, 9 months ago

Im still a firm believer in we will not make a final 4 if Selby is not a big part of this team. Hubert Davis touched on it at halftime and I couldn't agree more. Morningstar and Reed are good players but I dont want to count on them against elite competition to carry the load. And I think Self knows this. I like alot of what Jaybate mentions above but I think he goes a little to far with the Self/Selby conspiracy. Self said after the game he didn't plan on playing him until he had no one else to sub in. And I think playing him down the stretch was just to get him some game reps to try to get some flow back.

We will regroup after this and finish out the season strong. I am not worried about that. But I dont think we will be playing in Houston without more help from the young star.

tahawk81 3 years, 9 months ago

Im still a firm believer in we will not make a final 4 if Selby is not a big part of this team. Hubert Davis touched on it at halftime and I couldn't agree more. Morningstar and Reed are good players but I dont want to count on them against elite competition to carry the load. And I think Self knows this. I like alot of what Jaybate mentions above but I think he goes a little to far with the Self/Selby conspiracy. Self said after the game he didn't plan on playing him until he had no one else to sub in. And I think playing him down the stretch was just to get him some game reps to try to get some flow back.

We will regroup after this and finish out the season strong. I am not worried about that. But I dont think we will be playing in Houston without more help from the young star.

jrbill67 3 years, 9 months ago

Self is the best coach in the country and he has an extremely talented group. This team needs a leader & maturity. It starts with Taylor but his concentration span is less than 3 seconds. He dribbles into trouble, passes poorly, and doesn't play defense; he is not a point guard & Johnson isn't ready yet. The Twins play well when they're winning but can't play from behind without trouble; the dumb fouls and the mouths have to stop. Selby & Johnson aren't ready. The only players giving it their all and using their heads are Robinson, Morningstar, Little & Reed. If they don't get help from the 3 stars, no championships this year. Big 12 already lost; tournament 50/50. NCAA; look for an early exit without leadership & maturity. Self's been talking about it all year; they just don't get it.

Steve Brown 3 years, 9 months ago

Jayhawk Nation:

Someday we may have to play a #1 team on our beloved AFH home court, and that day may never come, yet if it does and we take care of business, you will remember this event and I have one request, we never rush the court, take it in stride, we don't rush the court as if you rush the court it means you came here tonight hoping for this yet expecting a different result.

the godfather.

Doug Merrill 3 years, 9 months ago

Actually, he did switch and made a tremendous number of adjustments. There was zone (if you couldn't recognize it yourself, you could listen to Coach Knight, who made a point of discussing it). I thought he coached about as well as he could when given players who clearly weren't excited about being there. This morning I re-watched the first KU vs KState game. Basically change the uniforms and you saw these were mirror image games. Pullen didn't shoot in the first 3 minutes and it was a clank from 3 point land. The inside guys didn't have their heads up so the Morrises were moving and passing at will. Guess what, last night our guys had their heads down or in the clouds, were tight and shooting poorly, and the scoring went just as it did when we played at AFH. Was Frank Martin a great coach last night? no. Was Bill Self a bad coach last night? no.

LAJayhawk 3 years, 9 months ago

Agree with dougmd. Self did everything but toss on a jockstrap and a jersey and head out onto the floor himself. He tried adjustment after adjustment. He tried player after player. He tried screaming timeout after screaming timeout, but these guys just didn't wake up.

They didn't come to play. And if Self needs to get these guys motivated to play a rivalry game against a talented team on their home court when we just hit number 1 in the polls, then this team has bigger problems then we thought.

Self did everything he could do.

jebloom22 3 years, 9 months ago

I saw that too. He just smiled and let them lose. It looked like an "I told you so" moment, but who knows what was really going on. Definitely disappointed in the performance. I won't call anyone out, but this team needs to learn how to fight back from real adversity. This is too much of a mental game for our current roster.

mojayhawk 3 years, 9 months ago

For the first time maybe ever, I was embarrassed last night. Watching HCBS demeanor on the side line when the game was out of reach, I believe he was also.

One of the things I have always been proud of with Kansas' teams has been their "non reactions" to fouls and bad calls. Not so with this team which I love. It is their one negative for a very fun and positive team to watch. To top it off last night, there were at least 3 occasions where it appeared our guys were yelling at each other or mouthing HCBS. I can take the loss better than I can take losing composure.

As a former small time baseball coach, one thing I always taught our kids when they struck out. "Never let the pitcher know it bothers you. Hustle back to the dugout without letting him know. If he sees it bothers you, he just beat you."

The best thing about this team sometimes becomes its worst enemy. Playing with unbelievable passion. It has gotten us to where we are, but unfortunately last night it got us where we were.

This team will bounce back. It will bounce back because of HCBS, and because of unbelievable leadership, stability, and steady play and leadership from Tyrel and Brady. These seasoned Seniors keep their cool game in and game out. The rest of the guys need to learn a lesson from them.

steamboat 3 years, 9 months ago

Very true. Go Hawks!!!!!!!!!! plenty bb left to play and plenty at stake to play for

chaggs 3 years, 9 months ago

Hopefully history repeats itself. The last time KSU stormed the court after beating us in Big12 play, We stormed the court in April!

HCBS will use this as a reference point to not look beyond our opponent. Will translate well to the tournament!

Specifically regarding the game...there is no blueprint to beat KU other than tell your best player to have a career night and have KU forget to pass.

FOE & RCJH

chaggs 3 years, 9 months ago

Hopefully history repeats itself. The last time KSU stormed the court after beating us in Big12 play, We stormed the court in April!

HCBS will use this as a reference point to not look beyond our opponent. Will translate well to the tournament!

Specifically regarding the game...there is no blueprint to beat KU other than tell your best player to have a career night and have KU forget to pass.

FOE & RCJH

Glen Darge 3 years, 9 months ago

Disgusting. Teams just do not defeat KU like this. Grow up "KIDS" forget about your girl friends and get a life without them! I would not blame Coach Self if he departed KU and went on to a college interested in playing the game like adults for the win! I did shut the game off early with about fifteen minutes left in playing time

SaltLakeHawk 3 years, 9 months ago

this post made me laugh.

I don't know you, but you don't strike me as someone who has a stranglehold on reality

FreddyinLA 3 years, 9 months ago

Hard to believe but a 5’9” Abe Lincoln beat us last night. Take away Abe and that team couldn’t beat Emporia State. I guess mixing up your defense this year is rotating between TT, EJ, and Brady guarding Honest Abe. The kid from BYU will score 50 against us if we play them in the tourney with that defensive philosophy.

HCBS use to run a box & 1 or triangle & 2 to stop one or two guys who are hot. Or how about running another guy at Abe when he gets the ball?

Frustrating.

hawksfan08 3 years, 9 months ago

We ran a triangle and two several times in the second half. It was very ineffective and when they did miss, we were unable to get rebounds because of poor positioning.

steamboat 3 years, 9 months ago

The whiners are out in full force. My gosh people it's only one game. How many teams would love to be 24 and 2?? And in the top 5? Probably over 300. I've seen other top 10 teams get destroyed this year on the road e.g. Duke U-Conn Syracuse Pitt Misery even K-Suck so did I like this game? Hell no but I saw this coming. Bill did a poor job of preparing these guys but give K-suck credit they took advantage of the situation. This teams will be better from the loss and we probably won't win league but should get a 2-3 seed in the tourney!!! How far we go depends on much we learned from last nite. We can't beat teams by just what the front of our jerseys read. I would think by mid February those issues would be resolved

RuffHawk 3 years, 9 months ago

+1 but you forgot everyone's beloved UT lost by 17 to USC & no one even remembers that game. & Let's not forget we are undefeated at full strength!!!

Benjamin Jones 3 years, 9 months ago

Tyrel Reed: "We turned it over or took a bad shot. That was our ammo." Huh? Makes no sense. Sure he didn't say "That was our M.O."? (modus operandi)

STLJHawk86 3 years, 9 months ago

I was going to post the same thing. Reed is pretty articulate; I find it hard to believe that quote is correct. Gary, you might want to listen to the recording of that quote another time.

COJHawk 3 years, 9 months ago

couple thoughts...

--it's pretty obvious that selby isn't right. just sit him down until he is. if we have to watch brady go one-on-one to end a half while selby stands in the corner and not the other way around, just sit him. the big 12 title is gone...sit him down and get him right

--if i were playing KU, i would cheap shot marcus and markieff early. they just can't control themselves. if KU is playing in a 2 seed v 7 seed game or something like that come tourney time, the opposing coach would be foolish to not go after those guys to bait them. they clearly can't help but take the bait

--if we were all honest with ourselves, KU was ranked #1 more for their record and not for who they are. i think they have a chance to win in march and so do 10 other teams. i think without a true post player, questions marks at PG and back-up PG, and some injuries, KU probably isn't the best team in the country right now. that doesn't mean that they shouldn't have been ranked #1. the rankings look at season record. that said, i think with our own eyes, if we weren't looking thru KU-tinted lenses, we could see that they weren't the best team in the country even before last night. last night just proved it

i enjoy the banter. keep it comin...

Sally Presson 3 years, 9 months ago

I'm glad on big wins KU doesn't rush the court. It's a stupid thing to do. Oh, my am I getting all the ignorant remarks by Cats' fans. it's to be expected and they played a great game and we didn't. Hey, we didn't want that #1 spot anyway, just hope we don't drop down past 4. EJ needs more time to GROW UP. And Selby sure isn't a OAD, he looked lost last night, frail. Come on Josh, buck up, if you're down and out now you sure aren't ready for the big boys in the NBA, stay with us Josh and in a couple of years, Bill will have you ready to go and you'll make your millions. Come on twins, we NEED you to show up. I will say this, the refs are keeping a close eye on you two and will call alot of ticky tack fouls, it's hard to get around, but you guys can do it, I know you can. It's February 15th, the games behind us and lets move on to the big game in March. Set your sites for Houston and the final game. We're good enough to get there, so lets do it!!!

David Brown 3 years, 9 months ago

Watching only Taylor & Pullen in isolation as the game played around them was revealing. Taylor seems to have little awareness of what is going on around him and gets easily caught up in traffic/screens. Self talks of his defensive potential but I'm not sure he has the mental makeup to accomplish this; meaning the focus and the will. Add to that his carelessness while handling the ball leading to, well, stupid turnovers. What alternative do we have? Guess we gotta stick with him and anticipate the curve going upwards!

leonard 3 years, 9 months ago

BrownJuan...excellent analysis of Taylor.

And from his performances...if he hasn't gotten it by now...he's not going to.

REHawk 3 years, 9 months ago

The One and Done recruiting business could be turning into a nightmare for our coaching staff. Not certain just what the answer to it might best be. In a perfect world, it might be best for Div. I coaches to avoid those kids like the plague; yet, it does appear to be working occasionally in some team settings. For instance, without Kevin Durant Texas and the Big 12 would have missed lotsa stellar moments. However, overall, NBA entry rulings are driving the donkeycart. Selby's 9 game suspension and current injury situation has really hampered the Jayhawks as Bill Self has attempted to establish a smooth functioning starting lineup. If jaybate's thesis rings true, that honeymoon blowup could be adding tension to a team already percolating with other serious attention seeking ingredients, i.e. attitude adjustments and poor decision making by the guard who brings the ball up the court. At this stage of the season, there appears to be no reliable alternative to the mercurial performances of our point guard. Our backup point guard seems inclined to follow in the footsteps of the fellow he occasionally replaces. How a team which had manned up and performed so well since the funeral trip to D.C. could have collapsed so disgustingly last night is simply bewildering. So little time remains to right this ship. I would like to think it will be stabilized....

Scott Smetana 3 years, 9 months ago

I'm OK with the loss. I'm OK with the twins playing timid in foul trouble without TRob backing them up. I'm OK with EJ getting too emotional.
I'm OK with KSU saving face and hopefully making a decent NCAA run. I'm OK with not winning the Big 12 reg season, who really cares.

I'm NOT OK with our point guard play. I don't see a fix.
I'm NOT OK with ever seeing Withey seeing the court. I'd rather see Juneman.

Steve Brown 3 years, 9 months ago

not winning the Big 12 reg season, who really cares.

call me old school, yet I care, regular season conf. banners are still cool to me.

Geekinout 3 years, 9 months ago

True. Guard play is not good right now. Usually the teams that make seriously deep runs in the tourney have a solid backcourt. I really think T. Reed should be handling the ball from this point on. Dribbling the ball of your knee is for middle school!

Kirk Goodwin 3 years, 9 months ago

the panic on here is sad...we are 24-2 with injury issues that should be resolved by tourney time. not being #1 is not a big deal. K-state won their national championship game and saved their NIT birth. The sign of a bad program is fans rushing the court. The sun came up today, as it will tomorrow and we will be set to make a run in the tourney

Scott Smetana 3 years, 9 months ago

Thanks GoodwinK and all the optimists. I needed a boost (and reality check)

Michael Luby 3 years, 9 months ago

HOw tall is Jueneman anyway? I dont even know... is he a true big? anyways, KU got their A$$e$ handed to them last night. There is no other way around it. This team looks to go 13 - 3 in conference play, and probly # 2 or even 3 in the conference behind Texas. Prior comments above in reference to a Team only meeting and the Twins' Mom having a come to jesus with them are mandatory at this point. As well as HCBS using the tape from that horrid game as a huge teaching moment and motivator to respond like men to adversity from here on out or face going home like they did last year, which I know they dont want to do

KU_alum_2001 3 years, 9 months ago

Did you just ask if Juenemann is a "true" big? He's not even a big. He's not even a semi-big. He's a third/fourth-string guard.

John Randall 3 years, 9 months ago

Well, no, June-man isn't big.

When I was coaching, I put up a sign in the practice room that my high school coach used.

The first line was; It's not the size of the dog in the fight,

Pretty clear in this game why those two seniors continue to play so many minutes, wouldn't you say? I have never seen either of them tuck their tails,

• no matter how bad one play (or a few plays in a row) went for them,

• no matter if coach chewed their butts for bad decisions,

• no matter if the opponents were playing over their heads,

  • no matter what . . . they don't tuck their tails and pout.

kennethst 3 years, 9 months ago

Clearly, Kansas cannot compete in the NCAA tournement with our current point guards. This was not just an isloated bad game for TT and Johnson.....this is typical. Selby is not a factor.....whether due to injury or other.....he is no longer a factor.

This is the reason for the GASP and EXHALE you are hearing amoung KU fans.....not just a dismal, emabarrassing loss......a mortal wound to the season.

PS-Tyshawn Taylor? Could he have played worse? I honestly think you have to work at playing as badly as he did. Wow.

selfesteem 3 years, 9 months ago

What an awful game for KU! However this team has had an excelllent season thus far in many ways. Defensively though I hope we can step it up as we get close to the Big Dance. We seemed unprepared for the cutting that their players were doing. Pullen just had a great night in which we neither stopped the drive nor the 3pt attempts. Our help defense seemed lost especially when they set screens, picks and rolss, cuts to the hole etc. Offensively we couldn't get to the paint in position, had few open looks at 3's, and missed many layup attemtps. It was a combination of all things going wrong, offense, defense, and coaching.

HawkBBall 3 years, 9 months ago

Aside from the embarassing beat-down, this game clearly showed five players with a lack of mental toughness. Kieff plays dirty and whines when he gets caught. Zero rebounds shows lack of desire. Marcus won't admit to doing anything wrong, and whines on the court when he is the subject of the whistle. He doesn't take criticism and talks back to the coaches. Although the twins are juniors, they clearly lack maturity. Neither could stop KSU's bigs.

Elijah can play with intensity, but plays with no plan. His technical shows his immaturity.

Tyshawn plays like he is out for a Sunday stroll. In the first half of the ISU game he played with intensity, as did the rest of the team. In Manhattan he was back to his old ways of waltzing through the plays and playing matador on defense. I don't think he is capable of sustaining a significant degree of concentration for any length of time, let alone 20 minutes worth.

Josh played like he didn't care; he just showed up.

kennethst 3 years, 9 months ago

I agree. But the guards are the big problem. I'm not worried about the twins-they will come back. Reality is that KU will go no where fast in March with these guards. I now have zero expectations for tourney...which may be a good thing for my sanity!

Kristen Downing 3 years, 9 months ago

Thumbs up to Jacob Pullen, he played with class. Thumbs down to our coach who stopped coaching at the end to make a point. He made a point with me, now I know why half of our players have attitude problems. I'm happy the classier team on this night won.

kennethst 3 years, 9 months ago

This has nothing to do with Self. The game was over early with the awful play of Tyshawn Taylor. We have no good guards on this team. And everybody better have no expectations for the post -season. We can not compete.....not with this team.

Scott Smetana 3 years, 9 months ago

We have great guards at the 2 and 3, just no point guard! I was worried about the 3 pre-season, but Tyrel and Releford are playing great. I wish Selby or Brady could lead this team at the 1!!

I feel the way Taylor led this team in the 1st half, he is 75% responsible for the loss.

Justin Lindsley 3 years, 9 months ago

That was pathetic!! when are we going to learn that we have to play every night. I think it was some good medicine. when the going got tough all I saw was a bunch of little school girls crying to their mommy. NUT UP!! play harder. so the shots weren't falling? PLEASE someone get a rebound. Of course, it doesn't help that State played the best game of their year. I was very disapointed in that game. I know EJ made some mistakes, but I'm starting to lean toward him to get more minutes from TT. TT is tanking! Selby needs to step up and play point. That might be the only chance we have to go deep in the tourney.

kennethst 3 years, 9 months ago

Agreed. But KU now has no viable point guard. I think Brady and Tyrel are great-but they can't do it. We need a decent point guard....we have none. And what a shame. This could have been a national championship team. It is not .

Bill Shaw 3 years, 9 months ago

Reminds me of the games prior to our home loss to Texas. Did we just have a 4 game peak?

Bill Shaw 3 years, 9 months ago

Opposing teams strategy: Foul the twins rather than let them make a field goal. One point is better than 2.

kennethst 3 years, 9 months ago

Great point.....suddenly KU's foul shooting is awful. That wasn't the reason for the loss but certaily didn't help.

rockingthechalk 3 years, 9 months ago

don't know that it's suddenly but yeah. free throws are awful.

jebloom22 3 years, 9 months ago

The question I'm still wondering about is where that chip came from that T Taylor's been carrying around with him for the last few years... He is so careless that I almost can't even bear to watch him. Last night's loss hasn't changed my opinion of TT at all, by the way. He seems to get called more often (I have no stats to back this up) for travels and out of bounds, and he struggles much too frequently trying to finish a basket. IMHO, he should have transferred out. It's never seemed like his confidence actually stems from any proven ability.

kennethst 3 years, 9 months ago

Well said. I thought he would improve....especially after competing overseas 2 summers ago.......But I actually think he is worse than ever. Which is sad b/c there are times when he is very good. But that always seems to be against the less talented teams. If K-State can do this to him....what hope is there in March???

bradynsdad 3 years, 9 months ago

You know I hate losing but sometimes it happens. The manner in which you lose can say more about your character than when you win. I checked the emaw message boards and they are posting several ku players phone numbers on there. To me regardless of how much you like or dislike someone some things are just over the line. It's personal when we lose but how personal is it to fans? Were not actually playing so why throw tantrums? It doesn't take a genius to figure out why we lost last night. We were awful and our attitudes were horrible, but I have always gelt the diffence between ku fans and other fans is we get pissed about losing but always support our team. As bad as we were last night I think it was a great wake up call. Humility does wonders for people. I had several jerks half of whom aren't even k state fans giving it to me left and right today, but in the end it's just cuz their happy to finally see us lose and that says alot. I was pissed at Texas tech a few years ago but look at their program and look at ours. We will always be on top and I am grateful for that. If we only suffered our second loss of the season so be it. Stay positive and go get a national title. Rock chalk jayhawk!!!

Hope_Inside 3 years, 9 months ago

I actually personally know Tyrel and he told me that he did say M.O. and not ammo. Although the two do sound alike.

Jesse Newell 3 years, 9 months ago

Just listened to the quote, and you are correct. It's been fixed above. Thanks for pointing it out.

Ethan Berger 3 years, 9 months ago

Crazy how people forget the past 5 games because of a loss. Glad most of ya'll aren't players or coaches on the team. Losing happenes. It sucks yes but we have shown we can be the best. People need to back Ty, he had a great past 5 games. Everyone played bad yesterday. Its a new day.

John Sheehan 3 years, 9 months ago

Negative - Opposing teams have shot over 50% only 4 times in last 136 games...2 of them in last 3 games (MU last Monday and KSU last night). Our D is suspect.

Negative - We haven't beat an Elite 8 or maybe even Sweet 16 caliber team. I'm glad we're scheduling tougher early season games in coming years.

Superstition - Only other time we lost in Bramlage was '08...we know how that ended.

Positive - This KU team might be the most athletic we've had under Self.

Negative - This KU team might be the least disciplined team we've had under Self.

Positive - Life (in this case KU BB) is 10% what happens and 90% how you react...these guys have been humbled and now have an opportunity to react.

Craig Colgin 3 years, 9 months ago

Agree, except that there is no question in my mind that this is the least disciplined team under Self, and it's not close.

phogthedog 3 years, 9 months ago

Seriously folks, we are 24-2! Don't you suppose Duke, Pitt, and other teams are embarrassed when they lose on national TV? Don't jump off any tall buildings because of this loss. At this point in the season HCBS should not have to "motivate" his players to be prepared. Young adults (men or women) don't always show the level of responsibility that older adults expect of them. In fact, negative experiences such as last night often are the best teachers. All of that being said, Tyrel Reed was a stud and should be commended by everyone for being prepared to play and playing to the level of his ability.

rockingthechalk 3 years, 9 months ago

I agree that I don't think the sky is falling. But it will come down to how they respond the next game. This team is not Texas from last year, but Texas fell apart after being number 1. I have no doubt these guys will respond well but that's what it comes down to. Definitely agree about the motivation. there was plenty of motivation built in already.

Kye Clark 3 years, 9 months ago

What an absolute embarrassment. KU did nothing well last night (except for shoot free throws, in which they were adequate). No semblance of an offense, poor defense (all though I will say not quite as poor as the stats/score indicate. Many of Pullen's shots were closely guarded), out-manned on the glass, and didn't take care of the ball. Plenty of blame to go around, but certainly some parties are more responsible for this debacle than others. Tyshawn...I'm done holding out any hope for him. I was fooled once by his play in the early non-conference part of the season, then I was starting to get my hopes up just a bit after the Iowa State game. But he simply does not make his teammates better, and is not a threat to take over a game himself. We were all talked into this "we can live with a couple of his brain-dead plays because those will be out-weighed by his 'wow' plays and overall positive contributions"...anyone buying that now? I'm sure his supporters will say I'm being hard on him and that while yes he had a horrible game it was just one game, but the more I watch him play the more I think we simply "hide" his mistakes when things are going good, but when we're not playing well he will never be one to right the ship, but instead will hasten along its sinking. Hopefully coach Self finally realized this last night, and that is why he played Selby. Reading into his comments, both here and in his post-game radio interview with Chris Piper, this may be the case.

Regarding Selby, I've been saying since his injury that we need him back and into rhythm quickly, and have been debated by posters that we play better without him. My argument has been that every other one of our perimeter players is capable of performing at a high level and positively impacting the game, but only in a complimentary capacity. When the Twins are ineffective, contained, in foul trouble, etc we cannot lean on any of these guys. We cannot run offense through them. Nobody wanted to see it because everyone was playing so great and they couldn't fathom the Twins being taken out of their game. Reality hit hard last night. When we can't run offense though the Twins we have no clear second plan of attack. I don't know that Selby will progress enough in the amount of time we have left to be the guy that can carry us through some stretches, but he has the skill set to do so. Early in the game I thought he was pretty invisible out there, but was simply glad he was out there. He needs to know he can play through that pain. In the second half I saw some glimpses of him being aggressive, taking the ball to the hoop and whatnot, so I am encouraged a bit.

Kye Clark 3 years, 9 months ago

(cont.) Immediately after the game it was the first thing up on Sportscenter, and they led into it with the quote from Marcus about wanting to be #1 because he wanted to get everybody's best shot and he thought they could take it. In retrospect, has there ever been a more foolish comment? If they can't take the best shot from a middle of the road, one offensive weapon team like K-State, if they can't fight through a bad game to at least compete...Self clearly has his work cut out for him trying to get this team ready for the NCAA tournament. No more worrying about chasing down Texas for the league crown. That's gone. No more talk about chasing down the #1 ranking. That's gone. Just focus on getting better.

Regarding Markieff's intentional foul - it may be time for Self to sit him down for a game. I know in doing this he will also be getting punished for Marcus's sins, lumping all their thuggery together and labeling it "the Twins", but something has to happen. This was supposedly addressed this week! What is it going to take for these guys to understand? If one of these guys does this in a tournament game...all the hard work of their teammates, the coaching staff...gone. A whole season can be flushed down the drain - even if they don't get ejected - because they are that important to this team. And in the post-game discussion I saw many posters defending the play as incidental. After watching it another dozen times or so...no way. He wasn't rebounding, didn't have the ball, wasn't tied up with anybody - so what was his elbow doing up at shoulder level? He clearly had that guy in his field of vision - not like he had his back turned and didn't know he was coming. This team needs to understand that there is a difference between playing tough, and playing dirty. Between having some swagger and class, and acting like knuckleheads. Which...Elijah - what are you doing? Why are you jawing at and staring down a guy after a dunk when your team is down by...15 or whatever it was at that point? Ridiculous.

The other thing that I feel worth mentioning was that last night's broadcast reaffirmed my belief that Bob Knight is brutal. His "favorite play of the year", where Pullen shot faked and got Tyshawn in the air resulting in 3 free throws, while a smart play on Pullen's part was a totally bogus call. He had to cock out his hip while jumping sideways to initiate that contact, and not one mention of that from Knight. Then he started in with the ridiculous counting in spanish. Later in the game he said (paraphrasing a bit) "I think it's real important for Kansas to get a bucket here, just like it's real important for K-State to get a bucket on their next possession." Huh? No more further analysis or explanation? So you're saying in basketball it's important to score? Thanks. I had no idea.

Hoping these guys have a long, grueling week of practice and get their heads on right

AsadZ 3 years, 9 months ago

Very good post. Can't agree more on Knight's comments. He has become senile and should not be commenting games for ESPN.

Craig Colgin 3 years, 9 months ago

I will take Knight over Dickie V everyday.

mstrausz 3 years, 9 months ago

Now that I am done feeling sorry for myself I have come to a few conclusions.

  1. Very few times has a number one seeded team won the National Title.
  2. Every college team has lost, someone with a loss or two is still going to win the title.
  3. We got to wake up today and still be KU fans, they are just now remembering that just because they beat us doesn't change the fact that they still suck.
  4. Maybe last night was the last time we have to ever see Jacob Pullens beard in a game setting.

Lets throw a monster beat down on CU and not forget the way that felt the rest of the year. Play that ending before every game here on out. Over and over let them see the goat herders storming the court.

Go Hawks

Korndogg 3 years, 9 months ago

I am on board with you. Records don't matter in March, team chemistry does. I wouldn't mind playing KSU again cause I know we are the better team. If we meet them again we are going to be the ones bringing the fight. I want us to not forget this loss. Remember it for the rest of the season. Playing it in ours minds of how it made us feel watching them strom the court. Use that to go out and play the KU BB that we all know this team is capable of. This team has talent and can make a run deep in the tourney.
Rock Chalk!!!!!!

Ty Mar 3 years, 9 months ago

We need this team to heal up first...who's NOT injured on this team? the twins? The practices must be brutal..they looked tired last night and with all those injuries.....a lot of players playing hurt.

Andrew Washington 3 years, 9 months ago

last night was an embarrassment....we deserved it though because the team needs to realize, once again, what will happen in march when they come into a game like this. Its unusual to see a team that needs so much motivation beyond a few wins. Ohio state played motivated pretty much through 24-0 and not too bad at a tough wisconsin. Pitt has also been playing better than we have. I just cant believe we could be beaten this bad in february. You know i dont just look forward to march madness to see my favorite team being the reason its called march madness. MOST of the bill self years we have been upset too early and i mean embarrassingly early. Hell we should have been to at least 3 final fours under self if not more and i think alot of people feel this.

michaeldixson 3 years, 9 months ago

I am a big KU fan/graduate and I am just as disappointed as a lot of people are on this site. However, there were far too many issues that went wrong during the game to just single out, TT and the twins. KU has not been able to defend the 3 pt shot very well all year. That being said, they are all competitors, and human beings, so it would be nice not to take personal shots at certain members of the team.

LF 3 years, 9 months ago

It's not a good feeling today. It was an embarrassment, and it's never fun to get a beatdown from KState. We could still do some damage in March, because this is a talented team. I'm just afraid that without players like Collins or Chalmers, this team will bend too easily in the face of adversity. Kinda like last night

ancient_hawk 3 years, 9 months ago

This is what I saw:

Self sniffed this one out early. Dos Morii and TT with gigantic heads. Alert: object lesson coming.

The peanut gallery is going on about his "horrible coaching job". Meh.

While I hate a loss, and especially a loss to the ...Cats, I sat and literally LOL at Self's response.

"You're sooooo damn good? You're #1 with a bullet? Well, go do it your way then. Go make asses of yourselves, and then we'll talk. And believe me, we WILL talk! Or rather, I'll talk while you burn out a couple of treadmills."

Coaching is about a lot more than X's and O's, and I admire his ability to mentally reload and consider even THIS game a teaching tool for the post-season. Personally, I wouldn't have been able to do it. I would have pulled a Frank Martin/BobbyKnight/Woody Hayes and punched somebody in the throat during a timeout.

My only concern was the whipped-dog look some of them had. I would rather they at least go down swinging. (not literally, of course)

JHawkfan32 3 years, 9 months ago

what i dont get (and think is kinda funny) is that at the beginning of the year, kstate was supposed to beat us, yet the stupid prissy cat fans at the octagon of mild discomfort still storm the floor. :P baaaaad game but we didnt have robinson to pump us and selby wasnt at full health. twins, you have to control your temper more and same with elijah. suckish game. good luck nxt game. cant wait to c u in the fieldhouse saturday. beat the team prissy cats lost to twice. :)

steamboat 3 years, 9 months ago

there's 149 posts on this site and I'm guessing 140 are bashing KU BB last nite. hey we lost, were 24-2 but we didn't lose to a better team, we lost because I don't think we were prepared for the game. K-suck played there game of the year when they had too. I feel sorry for the players the rest of the week in terms of practices. Thewhole team was lacking last nite, even the coaches but we still have time to make things right. Get some guys healed up and we can still get this done. It's just one loss and what hurts the most is because it was k-suck and not because they're the better team. It was an upset for sure but I bet will get the players' attention. ROCK CHALK

Chris1955 3 years, 9 months ago

Somebody answer this questions for me:

Are you better off playing a more athletic, but dumber player; or, are you better off playing a less athletic smarter player? Look at the teams in the final fours year in and year out. which type of philosophy gets you to the final four?

Now, look at KU. What do you see?

squawkhawk 3 years, 9 months ago

K-State exposed a gaping hole in this team aka the morris thugs! This team will get beat in the early rounds of the NCAA with these trouble makers. Mark my words!

Andrew Washington 3 years, 9 months ago

I think that sometimes we need less of this "SelfBall" and more of a superstar player that can really score like crazy. We SHOULD have "that guy" that we go to. Maybe if we had a better offensive system then we'd have gone to at least 3 final fours under coach self instead of just one (barely made it that time too). Alot of times SelfBall and the balanced scoring doesnt workout. Let the star players be star players and dont focus on letting everyplayer get that touch all the time. SelfBall might be good, but only if we could play it like Pitt-maybe they're playing something like bill self envisions for kansas?

KULA 3 years, 9 months ago

+1

Bill Self's Okie Hokey Pokey offense is the reason we lost this game. You'll never see a Bill Self player go off like Pullen. Because Bill doesn't allow it. You have to make 6 passes, and you never let your perimeter players go off, because you have to give players like Brady as much chance to score as Selby. And you never run a play to actually get a player open going toward the basket. You just pass it around the perimeter until someone is open from 22 ft. That works great when you shoot 55% from 3, like the first Kstate game. But if you go cold from 3, game over. Just ask UNI. The word is out on our BS offense. Shut down the inside the game and watch Bill Self's Okie Hokey Pokey offense grind to a halt.

KULA 3 years, 9 months ago

Btw, anyone else notice that the only player who had a good offensive game, Reed, did so because he broke out of the BS offense and and actually pushed the ball towards the bucket? But then again, he did blow two fast break opportunities. But what do you expect? BS doesn't believe in the fast break. That's why they never practice it. And because they never practice it, they blow more fast break opportunities than they convert. More often than not, when you get more than one Kansas player involved in a fast break, they fail to convert.

steamboat 3 years, 9 months ago

exactly right. Roy did the same thing. most the time it works BUT when we fall we fall hard. Like the sayin' goes "The only guy to hold Paul Pierce or Raef or Nick or Kirk below 30 points was Roy". I know there isn't an I in team but sometimes you just gotta let someone go off and drop 40 on somebody

KULA 3 years, 9 months ago

We average 83 pts/game and we scored 68. We lost on the offensive end. If we score our average, it doesn't matter Pullen has a career game--we're still in the game.

Steve Brown 3 years, 9 months ago

after the game I snuggled up with a bottle of kettle one and I ran out of lemon wedges I swwitched to Bombay saphire and when I ran out of olives, the memory of losing in the Octogon of Petticoat Junction still stunk so I found the CBS tape review of the 08 team and watch Russ Rob cry at senior night, Brandon slam dunk after his knee recovered, Stewart saying that playing in AFH with 16,300 every night was special and boy was Sasha and Shady special, fun to see Cole and Reed as punk freshman, then the games in San Antonio...

I feel good again....God is in his heaven and all is right with the world.

jayhawkfreak26 3 years, 9 months ago

hahaha thats hilarious dude but totally true

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