jayhawker_97 (anonymous) says...

get well soon, Sherron!!
i put bets on you. i know it's not you out there. you will prove the fans at KU just like you have in the past and at Crane High.

January 24, 2008 at 4:20 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Timmay97 (anonymous) says...

I'm hardly worried about Sherron. He'll come through when we need him most come tournament time. He's just had a rough couple games shooting the ball.

I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned this, but I love the fact that Memphis is #1. Here's the reason why.....most of the broadcasters think KU should be #1 anyway, Andy Katz, Bilas, Davis.....yet they are #2. I think KU has a bullseye with the zero showing in the loss column, it would still be more pressure for them to be #1. If you ask most people who would win the head to head matchup right now, they would tell you KU. I like where we are.

And for the record.....I think Kaun's playing extremely well lately. The fact that he's coming off the bench is working out well for the team.

January 24, 2008 at 8:04 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

RockHawkJHKU (anonymous) says...

Agreed on the Kaun comment, he has some confidence and seems to be developing a little touch, which I attribute to Coach Manning's work. On that note, Danny should be a HUGE asset on the recruiting side just because of the improvement the bigs have shown in one year.

Its good to know that Arthur has a calf strain, but I don't think that explains away the 1 rebound for the game. He has had a few other LOW rebound games this year (FAU, EWashington, Depaul, Yale, Loyola, Nebraska). Manning needs to work with him on recognizing where the ball will come off the rim, though I'm sure some of the totals are due to where he is playing on the court and some of it is his wish to block every shot.

January 24, 2008 at 8:29 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

chuckberry32 (anonymous) says...

don't like how once kaun puts his head Down to go to bucket he never looks up again to pass. Teams will pick up on this soon

January 24, 2008 at 9:50 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

ku98 (anonymous) says...

chuckberry, I understand what you're saying, but in all fairness to Sasha, when he gets the ball in the low post, he does take his time to identify whether it is a one-on-one situation or a teammate is open. Once he starts dribbling and backing up, you're right, he usually puts his head down, but most of the time, I would say that he takes a fairly good shot, and with his length and strength, he has a good chance one-on-one inside the paint. And when he occasionally misses from inside 5 feet, DJ, Shady, or even Brandon do a nice job of fighting for the offensive rebound.
We all know he is not the second coming of Hakeem Olajuwon... but I think he has played really well, especially coming off the bench.

January 24, 2008 at 10:18 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

chuckberry32 (anonymous) says...

I think he's doing great also, but after he first looks and makes his move is usually when someone opens up. Just feel that DA or DJ would be more capable of finding that other low post player after the double team hits him for a much easier basket. Certainly been interesting watching him develop these 4 years. Chatted with someone the other day who played against him in high school and he can't believe the difference.

January 24, 2008 at 10:31 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Timmay97 (anonymous) says...

I still think it's amazing how far Jackson has come. So much so, that there is NBA talk about him. Scouts are not just looking at Arthur and Rush anymore.....you can now throw Jackson in that mix. I think he has the potential to go late first round, early second, especially if he has an awesome tournament.

Opinions?

January 24, 2008 at 11:33 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

KUGrad04 (anonymous) says...

I hope Collins can get over this string of nagging injuries. His speed, ability to penetrate, and outside shooting are going to crucial for us in the tourney. That being said, I feel damn proud to be a jayhawk lately ! Rock Chalk !!!

January 24, 2008 at 12:41 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

bmcmich1 (anonymous) says...

Timmay-

Agree 100%

January 24, 2008 at 1:42 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

jross1972 (Joe Ross) says...

I say rest Collins and Arthur one game. If we drop it, so what. What matters is a national championship. Besides, we still have Kaun, Jackson, Rush, Robinson, Chalmers, Aldrich, Stewart, Reed...

Rest Arthur and Collins coach.

January 24, 2008 at 2:13 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

okjhok (anonymous) says...

"If we drop it, so what. What matters is a national championship."
I hope that's not all that matters, 'cause if so, KU's only accomplished "what matters" once in the last 20 years. The first goal is to win a conference championship. Not saying KU wouldn't still win without those two, but missing Arthur for a game just because of a mild calf strain would hurt, especially in what could still turn out to be a tight conference race.

January 24, 2008 at 2:51 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

wi_jayhawk (anonymous) says...

Timmay-
Last I heard, Sasha, DJ, and Russ are all on second round projections for this year. I'm cheering for all three to make it to the big-leagues for at least a few years. I think that they have worked hard and play well enough to make it, somewhere.

January 24, 2008 at 3:14 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

jross1972 (Joe Ross) says...

okjhok

its called "context".

i made very clear that I was talking about one game, not the last 20 YEARS. I so hate it when people try to force you to say things you havent said, as you are trying to do. Please...for your sake and everyone else's here...slow down and read my post again. Thank you.

January 24, 2008 at 3:19 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

kc_wildfire (anonymous) says...

I agree w/ jross about resting Collins for sure. We more than likely can beat Nebraska at home with Stewart / Reed filling in for Collins.

I think we need Arthur as we are fairly thin on the front line and taking him out completely would only make it more so. I would however like to see him get as few minutes as needed (if it is a blowout...get him out of the game as soon as possible) and have Aldrich get some more quality playing time.

One loss won't kill the program anyway!

January 24, 2008 at 5:39 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

KUbsee69 (anonymous) says...

Maybe we should just let the trainers & Coach Self decide who to play and when.

January 24, 2008 at 6:49 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

jross1972 (Joe Ross) says...

Yes, and maybe we should just let the fans express their wishes about what they would like to see happen since this IS, after all, a message board which allows those kinds of views to be expressed.

January 24, 2008 at 7:02 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

jaybate (anonymous) says...

Of course they should be allowed to heal, but that is, for better and for worse, not Coach Self's approach to the game.

Ask Sasha Kaun about being required to play on one wheel for an entire season. Doing so wrecked his confidence and probably ensured that his knee would never heal with the spring he had before he was hurt.

Let's face it: if Coach Self will play Kaun in the condition he was in last season, then Arthur would have to undergo knee surgery for a knee replacement in order not to play.

There should be a college basketball players association that takes advocacy stands on this baloney about playing through injuries. Of course injuries can be played through. But there is this mountain of empirical AND anecdotal evidence that athletes harm their bodies over time by doing it.

Sasha Kaun's heroic, but unwise, sacrifice of his body last year is already almost forgotten. Does he get pay back for having risked so much and for having almost certaintly harmed his knee joint in the long run? No! He gets his time reduced to 15-17 minutes per game, because there are other buys playing better.

Sasha could have done a lot better for himself by sitting out the season last year, even if it ticked Coach Self off. Self would still need his post defense just as desparately this year and would still have to play him at least the current 15-17 min./game. And likely as not, if he had set out the last half of last season, he would be much better off physcially (more spring, more agility, more mobility) and would probably be playing MORE minutes.

January 24, 2008 at 7:43 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

jaybate (anonymous) says...

As in Hollywood, no one in college basketball cares about what you did for (or to) me yesterday. All they care about is right now.

Brandon Rush infuriated Coach Self after last season dragging his feet about deciding and then by announcing his decision to go pro in Dallas before talking to Self. It was a big stink and Self was openly upset by it. Brandon didn't care. He was going pro. Next Brandon blows a knee. But that was all last year. All is forgotten now, because all that matters is this season now. Coach Self and Brandon need each other regardless of what water went under the bridge last year.

The same would have been true for Sasha, if he'd just told everyone to jump in Potters Lake if they didn't like that he was taking the rest of the season off to heal.

Playing through injuries is for suckers. Ask all those crippled former NFL football players that are now homeless and addicted to pain killers.

Hell, yes, sit Collins and Arthur, like we should have sat Kaun last year. And Langford the years he played for Self.

The boot camp ethic is not only about not letting your buddies down. It is about your buddies not letting you down. I think we are all letting these players down when we let them, or use peer pressure to get them to, play when injured.

I would love for the NCAA to take a stand on this: NO ONE plays with injuries, period. That creates a level playing field. Neither the coaches, nor the players, are then tempted to do what is not in the short or long term interests of the players.

January 24, 2008 at 7:44 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

CaramelMacchMan (anonymous) says...

Its a Big 12... Its a div. I Basketball.... and Jaybate is little bummed up about players playing thru injury.!!!!.... Hell yeah i would play thru injury...... Players get 4 yrs in college to prove that they can play in NBA... That is more years of playing(vacation) than you get...... Go play intramural brother (jaybate)... go play intramural......

January 24, 2008 at 11:03 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

jaybate (anonymous) says...

APDnickadenton6CaramelMacchManfizzou,

You play through injury?

You sacrifice for anyone, or anything?

No, I don't think so.

You are like so many. You like others to do your suffering and sacrifice for you.

You like for young men to sacrifice their bodies foolishly, so you can sit in a Barcalounger watching (you like to watch, don't you?) and feel better about yourself.

You're really not that much different, insignicant though you are, from US Presidents, Vice Presidents, Cabinet Secretaries, Senators and Congressman. You go right along with them, right? You LIKE sending Americans off to die in wars you will not fight in. And just like them, while you exhort others off to die in battle, you keep your kids out of uniform, right?

Like them, you like to sacrfice to the last drop of someone else's blood.

You are entertained by sacrifice.

Yah mahn, pley me sohm intramurals, mahn. Smoke me some reefer, too, mahn. Ain't it a crazy, mixed up free rider kinda world, mahn? Oh, and not ooooh-nly are ya seyin' pley me sohm intramurals, mahn, but ur pretendin' tuh be uh Jayhawker, too, mahn. Keep on pleyin', mahn. Hurt ur ankle fer me, mahn, Blow out ur knee fer me, mahn. Pley me sum intramurals, mahn, and pley thru the pain fer freeeee, mahn, then ah will know yer fer real, mahn. C'mon, finish yer reefer and beeeee mah little sucker, mahn. This ah gotta seeeeeee.

January 25, 2008 at 12:28 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

jross1972 (Joe Ross) says...

I have to say...theres no sense in playing these guys against Nebraska...AT HOME...when they are injured.

Playing through injury? Maybe if was March, or against a good opponent. But come on!

January 25, 2008 at 12:46 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

kataboom (anonymous) says...

wtf

January 25, 2008 at 12:55 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

CaramelMacchMan (anonymous) says...

welcome to 21st cent. sports world..

i got two comments...

"Show me the money... Show me the money.."
- Rod Tidwell(Cuba Gooding jr.( movie: Jerry Maguire))

Dear Jaybate:
This is sports site.
please take your crying over to CNN or MSNBC.
and stop judging people.

January 25, 2008 at 1:35 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

CaramelMacchMan (anonymous) says...

And make is short... i aint got time to read your lecture..

January 25, 2008 at 1:35 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

lhohman3 (anonymous) says...

Maybe play both only 1/2 their minutes for Nebraska game? Get Aldrich (sp) and Reed some more reps with respect to thinking about next season? This might be a good game to do this perhaps...

January 25, 2008 at 2:21 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

oceanvger55 (anonymous) says...

Same as the last post, Attack KSU like Xavier did! Penetrate, Penetrate, Penetrate!!!

January 25, 2008 at 10:56 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

TXJayhawk92 (anonymous) says...

Just curious, how many of you, on either side of this debate have played on a competitive level in any sport? I did. My son does currently. There are levels of injuries and appropriate responses. Blown ACL = sit out and recover. Mild ankle sprain = suit up and help your team. I didn't play college hoops but I did play college soccer (for no scholarship money either) and I played through ankle sprains, knee sprains, a concussion, and even two cracked ribs. Last weekend my teenage son played three games with his left eye swollen shut. Why? Because we signed on with our team and they need us as much as we need them. Do I have aches and pains? Yes, every single morning. Would I do it differently given the chance? Not on your life!

I agree that Collins and Arthur should be given a chance to heal but sitting them out isn't the answer. These guys WANT to play and even at 90% are adding value to the team, not hurting us. Assuming we get an big lead against NU, they should sit. Not because of the injuries but because Aldrich, Stewart, Reed and others need some PT to be ready in case a real injury occurs later in the season. I laugh when I hear cry of a players union to keep coaches from forcing players to play hurt. Unless they're dead, most athletes want to play, no matter what. Like Collins said above "It's pretty bad, but it's alright."

January 25, 2008 at 12:18 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

kc_wildfire (anonymous) says...

Good post TXJayhawk

You are right, we do need Collins and Arthur. But we need them when it matters most...tournament time.

If sitting out a game and getting four or five days of rest would be the best thing for them in the long run, they should sit. If the doctors say they can't hurt themselves any more than they already are by continuing to play, then they play.

If KU plays like they can then they can play without those two against Nebraska. However, playing against KSU on Wednesday is a whole other story. That is one game where both of them will be needed.

January 25, 2008 at 1:45 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

jross1972 (Joe Ross) says...

TXJayhawk...

Most of us have played sports, and in truth part of me agrees with you. That return to normal activity as soon as possible is a great idea. However, the operant word is possible. Fact of the matter is, despite how much these guys WANT to play "sometimes" it's prudent for them not to. This is "sometimes" why players are sat out for games. Because coaches, trainers, strength coaches know that something called "aggravation" of an injury can occur.

Players wills do play in the face of medical evidence that they should not should be flatly ignored. No, we dont know the status or severity of their injuries, granted, but you seem to make a big deal about how much they WANT to play. Its simply irrelevant. Medical clearance is what's at issue.

January 25, 2008 at 7 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

jross1972 (Joe Ross) says...

Players' wills TO play in the face of...*

January 25, 2008 at 7:12 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

jedarchul (anonymous) says...

jaybate,
I appreciate the point you make about injuries, etc. but I really think, in this instance, you're laying it on a bit thick. We have an entire staff of trainers and medical personnel dedicated to athletes dealing with injury. Great care is taken to determine what type of injuries can be played on and what types pose a risk of doing significantly more damage. In a lot of ways, identifying these risks and minimizing them has been one of the major advances in sports medicine in the last 10 yrs. It is somewhat naive to think that a reputable program would cannibalize its athletes for the extreme short term. Not only would this minimize the contributions of the player injured, it would have potential long term effects on recruiting. Not to mention the fact that I believe that our coach (and probably any coach worth his salt) actually cares about his players and wouldn't put them in a position where he feels they could do significant damage to themselves.
NCAA mandates that no injured athlete should play? March Madness would be reduced to 3-on-3 drills. Look, I think you're heart's in the right place and there are probably more than a few examples of the dire consequences that you allude to. But, in my opinion, the coaches and players trust the med staff to give them the right information to weigh the risks and act accordingly from there.
And for the record, these kids know what they are doing. They've chosen to play sports at the college level. They have committed themselves to reaching their peak physical potential. They know what risks are involved. Can their zeal override their discretion where injury is concerned? Of course, but again, that's why medical approval is the first requirement for participation. The NCAA does require that.

January 25, 2008 at 7:23 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

ralsterKUMed95 (anonymous) says...

"Injuries" is a very broad term--whats the injury in question? Yes you can play if its the kind of injury that once the game + adrenaline starts, there isnt any pain or distraction. If it is limiting your production, or causing visible wincing, maybe not so helpful to the team? And it is a co-decision between player and coach (and MD or trainer). Matter of fact, I am in rec league play now with a 70% nonshooting thumb sprain, mildly sore Left achilles and various bumps/bruises/court-rash--but when the game starts, NO pain; running around defendin, stealin, drivin, shootin...My point is, again, what exactly is the injury, as each injury has a different treatment, pain level, limitation (functional or medically-prescribed), etc...If they can play (alot behind that statement), then they play.

January 25, 2008 at 9:57 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

jross1972 (Joe Ross) says...

ralster...

respectfully, I feel youve missed the point. its not so much a question of whether they can play or not through the injury. the fact is, we probably dont NEED them to! home game, nebraska, great backup players.

Im not suggesting we look past nebraska. Im saying if theres a game on the schedule where you might want to rest a banged up player or two, this might be the one. extensive knowledge of medicine not required (and Ive completed three years of med school myself...useless in this matter). they could be rested if theyre hurting and dont need to play through it.

January 25, 2008 at 10:32 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

jaybate (anonymous) says...

oooooh APDnickadenton6CarmelMaccManfizzou,

You be so tough, mahn. You never cry, mahn. You jest look at the little boy men and think how much bigger you feel when they win for you, mahn.

Here somethin' short for you, mahn.

Your love for your fellow mahn.

Extra short, mahn.

No heart neither.

Pley for me, mahn. Pley thru pain for me, mahn.

And I keep mah cryin' right here for you, mahn, jest for you.

January 25, 2008 at 10:43 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

jaybate (anonymous) says...

TxJayhawk,

We're risking getting into Jaws country here. Remember where Robert Shaw and Richard Dreyfuss got into matching scars with each other before the last act?

Okay, I'll take it from the top. Broken collar bone. Didn't play through. Broken arm. Played awhile with. Three concussions. Played through first one even though I saw double the rest of the game. Knocked unconscious on the second one a year later. Tried to play through the third one, but couldn't remember my name, or the plays, or who we were playing. Went home and spent two days with a headache like nothing I've ever felt since. Pulled groin twice. Tried to play through, but couldn't play well enough and coach pulled me. Simultaneous ankle spains so bad I couldn't walk without crutches. Played the next week and tore a tendon in one of the ankles. Lower tooth driven through the skin a quarter of an inch below my lip. And this was all in lousy junior high and highschool football and basketball. And god knows I inflicted worse stuff on the guys i played against. Mercifully I wasn't good enough to play in college.

Oh, and one of my basketball teammates had three teeth knocked out and my best friend broke his neck in football. Well specifically he broke two vertabrae in his neck and had to have holes drilled in the top of his skull and be put in traction for a month or two. The great thing about this was that the coaching staff did not even recommend he get an xray, when the injury occurred. They played him the next week after the inital injury, then he got a light hit and said it felt like 1000 volts of electricity went down his spine. My two other good buddies had concussions playing football, too. I am the only one of the bunch without alot of arthritis, because I wasn't as good and didn't play as much or as long, because of my concussions.

All but one of us have agreed in the years since that none of us would let our kids anywhere near a football field. Basketball only if they were big enough to dish it out and not have to take it.

Oh, yes, one of them went on to play college football and our high school was outrageously successful in football. Sucked in hoops.

Playing injured is for suckers.

If any young persons are reading this: don't do it!

You get one body in your life. Coaches get hundreds of players and dozens of seasons to try to get lucky and have a healthy team to prove the coach can win the big one. Let him wait. He's not going to give you more minutes, if you sacrifice for him. He's only going to give you more minutes, if you perform better than the next guy, when you're healthy. And if he is the sort of guy who would play you less because you wouldn't play injured, transfer before he gets the chance to squeeze you into playing hurt. Some of these guys are masters at doing it.

Unless you're so big and so good and so lucky you're going pro, it ain't about the money. Its about your life.

January 25, 2008 at 11:21 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

TXJayhawk92 (anonymous) says...

First, I'd like to compliment everyone here for allowing this discussion to remain calm. Some of my friends get borderline angry when we have discussions like this and that serves no purpose.

Second, I'm not trying to advocate that players should play through any injury but from the sound of it, the injuries to Collins and Arthur aren't that bad. A strained calf muscle may affect Arthur's jumping a bit and it will be sore but it's not the type of thing that will cause long term damage. Collin's ankle can be taped to protect it. It may slow him slightly because of the stiffness but if it stabilizes the ankle and it doesn't hurt, he's possibly better getting 10-15 minutes on it than nothing at all.

The coaches and trainers look out for these guys and I'm sure that they wouldn't sacrifice a guy's future for a short term gain like thumping Nebraska. At the other end of the spectrum, I fear that if the NCAA established a policy that no player could play injured, players would avoid admitting injuries and fail to received treatment, because they don't want to be forced to sit out. How is that better?

January 29, 2008 at 6:48 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )