Friday, October 5, 2012

Boot Camp ends early

Jayhawks survive early-morning conditioning drills

KU coach Bill Self huddles with the Jayhawks after a Boot Camp conditioning session in this file photo from 2006.

KU coach Bill Self huddles with the Jayhawks after a Boot Camp conditioning session in this file photo from 2006.


Perry Ellis didn’t particularly enjoy hopping out of bed at 5 a.m. and staying up until 10 p.m. or so the past two weeks.

“I’m not going to lie. It was long days, but we got through it. We’re finally done. It feels great,” said Ellis, Kansas University’s freshman basketball forward from Wichita.

He was speaking with a smile on his face Thursday after the 10th and final up-before-the-crack-of-dawn, hourlong Bill Self Boot Camp conditioning workout in KU’s practice facility adjacent to Allen Fieldhouse.

The Jayhawks, who had two-a-days on the first day (Sept. 24), finished Boot Camp a day early as a reward from their ever-demanding coach.

“I think it put it through the roof,” Ellis said of his personal conditioning. “We’ll just see where it goes from here.”

The Jayhawks now will taper a bit leading up to Late Night in the Phog and the start of the 2012-13 season a week from today in Allen Fieldhouse.

“I believe it was one of the better ones we had,” Self said Thursday, referring to his 10th KU Boot Camp. “We got off to such a bad start we had to repeat last Monday morning’s workout in the afternoon. Guys at that point in time realized the only way they’d want to do this was do it together, be positive and have great attitudes.

“I think they were feeling kind of sorry for themselves at the start of it and nervous. It got really good. We were hard on them, still I think they got a sense of pride from this one. I was pleased with it. Now, that doesn’t help you get the ball in the basket. I think we’ll draw from this over the course of the season, which I hope will be a big positive for us.”

Which individuals impressed?

“They were all good, but Kevin Young ... wow,” Self said of the senior forward. “Kevin Young and (senior forward) Travis Releford to me just stand out.”

The 6-foot-8, 190-pound Young said it was “fun. I love to run so it wasn’t as hard as what I expected. I could do it all day. As a team I think it brought us together. It obviously helped us on our defensive skills (running slides), being able to stick together and do it as a group.”

He mentioned the work of freshman guard Andrew White III. “He did pretty good on his sprints (on final day). He came up first on a couple of them. He impressed me a lot,” Young said.

“Elijah, Jeff and Travis ... they’ve been through it multiple times,” Young added of seniors Elijah Johnson, Jeff Withey and Releford. “They showed their leadership getting through it and encouraging everybody else.”

Releford has survived five Boot Camps, counting his red-shirt season.

“It wasn’t as bad as I thought it’d be,” Releford said. “At the beginning, I thought it’d be tough on a lot of the new guys. They overcame it completely. All of them stood out a bunch. I didn’t think a lot of them would complete it (running sprints, slides and backboard touches for an hour straight five days a week). They proved me wrong.”

Ellis believes completing the early-morning conditioning drills, followed by afternoon weightlifting and pick-up games and nighttime tutoring sessions, says a lot about his teammates.

“I would say we got a feel for each other. We gained chemistry as a team,” he said.


chriz 9 years, 7 months ago

I feel bad for Releford for having to do it an extra year! Ouch!

John Randall 9 years, 7 months ago

Wrong attitude, chriz. They don't have to do it, they choose to do it.

It is part of being a Jayhawk, which is a privilege, not a burden.

jayhawker97 9 years, 7 months ago

thanks for sharing, Gary. but please, don't you have a more recent boot-camp pic?

Robin Smith 9 years, 7 months ago

I want to start getting some images in my mind of this years team together!

Michael Pannacciulli 9 years, 7 months ago

My plea went unheard after the last posted story...I expect we will see that same One above next year now too! Lol.

Marcia Parsons 9 years, 7 months ago

It's a good picture, though. It shows so many different levels of exhaustion.

Stan Unruh 9 years, 7 months ago

The team probably won't allow anyone in that early in the morning to take pictures.

Michael Bratisax 9 years, 7 months ago

As much as I like seeing D Manning in the picture, time for an updated version.

Nathan Scholl 9 years, 7 months ago

I keep thinking the same thing Jayhawker97! That pic is from 6 or 7 years ago. Ha!

Robin Smith 9 years, 7 months ago

This sounds very promising. I'm super pleased to hear Young's name as the first mention from Self. Seeing what he did after a year away, in his first year on a whole different kind of stage and to think of what kind of improvement he might have made since the last season... I'd love to see him push for and possibly earn that starting spot -- it would mean he's performing at a very high level and his play could really elevate the team overall. Also excellent to hear Rele and White getting the mentions specifically and that the whole incoming group did well.

I am very excited for this season.

championhawks 9 years, 7 months ago

"Now, that doesn’t help you get the ball in the basket." - Bill Self

I think this quote is perfect for Young. If he earns a spot as a starter that means that Ellis is not ready for the big time yet, or Young improved more from one year to the next more than anyone we have seen at KU.

I love Young off the bench. He definitely gives that spark that the team needs at times with his energy. However, he just isn't that skilled of a player. He will get playing time, but I hope he isn't the one getting the majority of the minutes at the 4.

jakejayhawk 9 years, 7 months ago

Isn't that talented? I will respectfully disagree. I see a world of talent from Young. He has a nice blend of moves, athleticism, and something you can't coach: size. I think he can be a matchup problem for other teams, especially if he can defend a big. He is so mobile at his size. Sure, he will really have to be tough at his weight, but quickness, speed, and jumping ability, combined with savvy, provide an edge. I'm not disagreeing at all in the sense of needing to see all that come together on the court in a consistent manner, but I do think Kevin has the skill to make it happen. And if he ends up a role player off the bench, it might just mean that another player is that much better. It wouldn't have to indicate that Kevin is not producing. We are scary deep this year.

John Randall 9 years, 7 months ago

Coming off the bench isn't necessarily being 'just a role player.' Especially true when you bring as much as KYoung does. Starters also are, for the most part, role players - it's the nature of SelfBall, which is why it takes more than a year to get it right.

championhawks 9 years, 7 months ago

I didn't say he wasn't talented, I said not a skilled player (meaning basketball player). I look at him as more of an "athlete," like some football players are classified as. However, in my opinion, that translates to more success for a football player, not a basketball player. I would have to respectfully disagree with you that he has a nice blend if moves. Offensively I think he is limited.

And how is he a matchup problem because of his size? At 6' 8" and 195lbs. I can't see that causing a matchup problem.

I agree with Robin that if Young pushes for or earns a starting spot that he would be playing at a high level. I just don't see him being that good or more than an energy player off the bench.

ParisHawk 9 years, 7 months ago

When's the last time Coach Self used the word "wow" to describe someone's performance at Boot Camp? High praise indeed for Young.

jaybate 9 years, 7 months ago

"Progressions in a Key of Sports"

~Crude oil.

Refined petroleum.

Synthetic rubber compounds.

Outer soles of sports shoes.

~Crude oil.

Refined petrochemicals.

Polyurethane, Phylon, Phylite (a combination of Phylon and rubber), and EVA, a flexible, foam-like material.

Midsoles of sports shoes.


Shoe companies.

College sports.

~Low grade USA and Canadian crude and tar sands.


Canada to Texas pipelines



Fracking for coal gas.

Gas pipelines.

Helium to push gas to refineries.

Coal gas to crack bitumen into petroleum distillates.

Rubber compounds and polyurethanes.

Mid soles and outer soles.

Basketball shoes.

Basketball stars.

Sports shoe sales.


Athletic departments.



~Athletic Departments



~Regions of states.

Voting blocks.

Infrastructure projects.


TV cameras.


Commercials for cars, gasoline, and sports shoes.

~TV Revenues.

Athletic Departments


TV networks.

Gaming industry.


Media hype.



Gaming industry.

(Note: the above to be read while humming Disneyland's "Its a Small Small World.")


kusayzone 9 years, 7 months ago

And then there were two..................LOL

KUFan90 9 years, 7 months ago

Always there are two...a master, and an apprentice.

Dave Benjamin 9 years, 7 months ago

Not to be rude, but here's a thought for yourself and specifically jaybate: start a blog! You make reference to using Google for research so why don't you just research how to start one. Writing 2+ page diatribes on local newspaper comment sections doesn't do anyone any favors and is frankly quite annoying for people like myself who can survive with less than a paragraph of someone's insight. Just a thought......

jaybate 9 years, 7 months ago

"I don't know about you aliases, but I am absolutely infuriated by this jaybate character. Who does he think he is exposing the rude halfwits among for spouting rants of drivel mischaracterizing what he writes and exposing the insipid things we write and imitating us by calling us the same kinds of names that we call him? I mean, I wish he would leave this online community. Why he even makes fun of us when we call him "not well" and imply he needs help, by imitating us doing that too! I am flippping outraged that this jaybate character would basically reveal all our repugnant behaviors and then stand back and make fun of us by immitating them. Its not fair. This board means so much to me and that jaybate character makes fun of us for wishing he were not a part of our board by making us look like a bunch of reactionary hair brains. And this is not a compliment." --jaybate


jaybate 9 years, 7 months ago

"Oh, and for a post script, I really hate the way this jaybate character uses semicolons, colons and dashes, too. I'm the alias jaybate, and I don't like the way this jaybate alias is using punctuation to explain our errors and make us all look like a bunch of goof balls iVigilantes obsessing with bazookas on a bowl of orange sherbet. And this is no compliment. " --jaybate


jaybate 9 years, 7 months ago

Oh, alright now, everyone just simmer down. The seasons almost here. The election is almost over. Realignment decisions can begin to fall in place sometime over the next year, when everyone knows the team in Washington, D.C., that will be looking after the pork barrels.

Just having some fun again.

The above jaybate quotes by jaybate were all a satire.

I thought it might be funny to have jaybate turn on jaybate and join the anti-jaybate choir and run some jaybate smack, too, and indirectly expose some yahoos.


Its kind of fun.

Rock Chalk!

Eliott Reeder 9 years, 7 months ago

Wow. Pot, meet kettle. Jaydog, it is obvious, in my humble opinion, that YOU take Jaybate's posts far more serious than he does. Take a breath. Relax. All in good fun here on the anonymous interwebs....

clevelandjayhawker 9 years, 7 months ago

sometimes i think jaybate has multiple accounts....especially the posters who contradict him in a similar fashion, i often wonder if jaybate has conversations with himself with multiple posts

Robin Smith 9 years, 7 months ago

people should drop the anonymity and take up civility.

I can say for a fact that because I use my real name I know that what I say needs to be something I'm willing to stand behind.

ClemsonDandy 9 years, 7 months ago

Post your address and we'll mail you a "present".

Robin Smith 9 years, 7 months ago

I take it jokingly, but this is somewhat creepy.

HawkKlaw 9 years, 7 months ago

I "manned up" (pfffft!) on jaybate and all he did was call me a "pussy." He didn't refute my argument. He didn't back up his own statement. He just went the elementary school route and called me a "pussy." At that point I called him out and he didn't continue the conversation, probably because he realized that he was exposed as having no real insight. That's when I discovered these same things that you have noticed, like how fun it is to prove his wild, unfounded opinions wrong.

Robin Smith 9 years, 7 months ago

Let's just not turn into our enemies when we stoop to combat them.

That is exactly how jaybate has transformed from a long-winded and respected contributor to a long-winded derided contributor. Originally there was nothing but praise or tolerance for his postings.

HawkKlaw 9 years, 7 months ago

I haven't stooped to jaybate's level. I've been a user on this website for about 2 years now, and I know jaybate has been here much longer than that. I always tolerated his posts until I took issue with one of his wild theories (which I backed up with evidence and logical thought). Then he resorted to name-calling. I won't stand for that.

KGphoto 9 years, 7 months ago

OMG! Too funny. Dogger, not to be rude, but you are out of your league. It sounds like you're a little angry for having to look up words in order to understand a JB post. Hey if you don't like it, scroll along. Personally, I have no problem whatsoever following his writing and I find it the most refreshing thing about this venue. You sound like you're in a court of law. This is just a sports board, dude.

I read jaybate for a laugh, not for insights, even though I respect most of his insight as well. If you can't appreciate his creative writing ability then I can't help you. It's probably just not your thing. In fact he's told me this recently himself, and I totally agree.

Even though I'm not a great writer myself, I know great writing. I come from a nice line of GREAT writers, including my mother, step-father and grandmother. The first two have multiple books garnering rave reviews from The New York Times for their creativity, innovation, complexity, and overall contribution to the craft. I guarantee JB would love them, because he is right in there with all of that.

Although his writing here isn't meant to be SO important as to weigh in with the NYTimes, it is worthy for anybody who enjoys both KU sports and creative writing.

Don't forget he's writing on a fluid sports board, so things like punctuation are merely guidelines. We posters are not limited to perfect punctuation as is a paid journalist like Matt Tait. It's not edited, and it doesn't need to be. It's a free for all. We are allowed to get creative to convey our ideas, and he does because he understands how today's internet communication works. In fact he seems to be a bit of a master at it. No surprise since he is probably more well-read than any two or three of us on here combined. Just another reason I think you are frustrated with him. You don't follow. Myself, I have learned to give him the benefit of the doubt if I don't feel like looking it all up, and I move on. It's just a sports board.

For example there is this. For him to create so much of his own vocabulary and implement it with a style and consistency that bends with the topics, but never strays too far as to be unrecognizable, over a period of YEARS, you have to house a professional writing skill set. If you think he is just rambling, well then you probably just lost him, because he ties this stuff together, and that's not easy.


jaybate 9 years, 7 months ago

Thanks for the help defense. But watch out now for the smear campaign to glom onto you, too. This is virtual McCarthy era. Just ask Oak. Logic is not in session with these aliases. Guilt by association rules the minds of those too disillusioned and tired to continue to make use of reason and self governance. These are the persons that may eagerly embrace martial law one day. Woe is us. They are symptoms of something much deeper eating away at the entire nation, not just Jayhawk nation. Woe, woe, woe is us. :-)

TeaCakes 9 years, 7 months ago

JayDogger is just trying to remove a very painful and inconsiderate form of cancer. A form that is not easily removed because it has nowhere else to go.

John Randall 9 years, 7 months ago

Not to pick fights, but I do resent being considered illiterate &or lacking insight simply because I choose not to flaunt my superior talents and understanding in a non-stop manner.

KGphoto 9 years, 7 months ago


Honestly, I'm a little embarrassed for you and the others who throw wild, blind haymakers at jaybate. You always miss and you don't even know it. You think you connected. LMAO! At least understand this. His hilarious insults are a direct response of your unfounded hatred of his logic, which in itself is unimportant. It's his opinion, man! It's a sports board. Often he exaggerates to make a greater point about something. Maybe it's corruption, maybe it's commercialization, whatever. That's where some of the complexity comes in, that's where a lot of the creativity and depth come in, and I believe that's partially where you lose him.

Bottom line is, you are taking this all too seriously. I'm sure JB would be much friendlier if you just sat back and enjoyed the ride a little. And a good thing to remember, it makes you look foolish to criticize something you do not understand.

Ironically, this post became a two part mini-novel. : )

KGphoto 9 years, 7 months ago

You do take it too seriously! He's not here trying to prove anything. He's having fun with it. He likes to write crazy stuff because it's fun. That's why I'm a fan, and that's why I think you don't get it. He says something like...

"I said what I said...I would never say the stupid things you say...This is how it is...You assert nonsense...I pull your pants down and paddle you...You say something that makes sense, and if you are nice, then I will praise you...You have yet to make sense...So: you're my speed bag...Next."

...which is hilarious... whether it's fact or not, it's funny. He called you his speed bag. You don't find that funny? How did you ever get into Hunter Thompson?

And you respond with "I'll take that as a denial". :( Boring! So boring, Like real-life-court boring. Not just boring but, if you can see yourself, it's also cocky. Now you're being cocky, but not interesting. Bad recipe. Keep it interesting and the cockiness becomes tolerable. See ahperse.

JB is just toying with you dude! He's here to have fun. If you made even a partial effort to relax and see it for what it is, I'm sure you two would be besties! But getting into a battle of insults with him is just not working for you.

jaybate 9 years, 7 months ago

Oh, ilBastardito,

You are being so silly. You need to man-up about this. It is okay if someone has different ideas that you. Your inner world will not be threatened by these different ideas. It safe.

Benjamin Piehler 9 years, 7 months ago

The fight is out there, not in here! Don't you see?? This is exactly what KState wants us to do!

Benjamin Piehler 9 years, 7 months ago

I think I've read one or two Jaybate posts in their entrity... It's just self indulgent dribble, honestly.

Do what I do; keep scrolling down.

ClemsonDandy 9 years, 7 months ago

Does anybody else notice that when people argue with Jaybate, it is their posts that get removed, despite equal distribution of name-calling and vulgarity?

Michael Bratisax 9 years, 7 months ago

A little harsh and unfair in some criticisms JayDogger. But I enjoyed reading your post.

Just because we all here obviously for the same reason, wanting to see another NCAA Championship Banner being raised inside AFH, certainly doesn't rule out differences of opinion.

And you are right in that this forum would not be the same without Jaybate but I think it would be a loss if Jaybate wasn't Jaybate. Take the good with the bad and I believe you come out with a net positive.

But I'll give you props JayDogger for coming out swinging, and not holding back. I'm already looking forward to the rebuttal.

Tan Hong Woon 9 years, 7 months ago

For HCBS to call an end to the Boot Camp one day early as a reward speaks a lot for the experienced and yet young team about its team work and attitude. I am looking forward to another good year.

Rock Chalk!

DDDHawk 9 years, 7 months ago

Congrats to the team. Guys, we appreciate all of the hard work you are doing to get ready to provide all of us coach potatoes a season's worth of awesome entertainment!

Martin Rosenblum 9 years, 7 months ago

Using a file photo from 2006 has mysterious overtones. Were no photos allowed this year? Is Gary Bedore MIA from Boot Camp? Is Gary off on a secret mission? That same file photo has now been used at least three times over articles relating to this year's Boot Camp. Why not just leave a photo out if it isn't relevant to the context of the story?

What gives LJW?

Nick Cole 9 years, 7 months ago

This story is about boot camp. The photo is from a boot camp. I must be dumb. Explain how that isn't relevant...

dylans 9 years, 7 months ago

A six year old photo. Releford's been here the longest at 5 years. Not a single current Jayhawk in that pic. At least show a picture of the new 'Hawks together.

Jack Wilson 9 years, 7 months ago

Great article at ESPN on KU .. here's a cut and paste of the whole thing for those that can't get to it.

The key: The intimidator Stat to know: 17.4 percent Kansas did something remarkable during the 2012 NCAA tournament. It's not too much of an exaggeration to say the Jayhawks played their way into the national championship game despite being unable to make baskets. In their five tournament games leading up to the showdown with Kentucky, the Jayhawks' shooting was awful. They made less than half of their 2s and just 24 percent of their 3s. Yet they won every game (albeit by slim margins against Purdue, NC State and Ohio State). Kansas Jayhawks Last season: 32-7 (16-2 Big 12) Finished: Title game (lost to Kentucky)

2012-13 projected starting lineup G: Elijah Johnson (Sr.) G: Ben McLemore (Fr.) G: Travis Releford (Sr.) F: Perry Ellis (Fr.) C: Jeff Withey (Sr.)

Bill Self's team won those games with defense, of course, and if I may be even more specific, they won those games with Jeff Withey. In those five tournament games, opponents scored just 296 points on 333 possessions, while making just 39 percent of their attempts from inside the arc. Self's shot-blocking big man was a big reason behind the ugly number recorded by KU opponents. Withey's season totals for 2011-12 are impressive enough, goodness knows. But things get downright scary if you project his performance this season based on what he was able to do in the NCAA tournament against a very tough slate of opponents (Detroit, Purdue, NC State, North Carolina, Ohio State and Kentucky). Withey's block rate actually improved slightly, to the point where he blocked 17.4 percent of the 2s that opponents attempted during his minutes. And his foul rate went down to just 3.0 whistles per 40 minutes. Self likely has the best defender in the game, and that's why I won't be the least bit surprised if Kansas has the best defense in the nation this season. -- John Gasaway


KUFan90 9 years, 7 months ago

This section gave me chills. That's a pretty amazing stat...blocking over 17% of all 2s taken against you while you are on the floor? Wow...

Curtis Stutz 9 years, 7 months ago

There's no doubt when you look at Withey's performances against Anthony Davis and Jared Sullinger in the FF people just hadn't understood to that point how good he was defensively. I felt he was on the bad end of the whistle once or twice in the first UK matchup, and AD got away with a few. When KU was going up against OSU one of their players that had played HS ball with Sully talked about how nobody has ever been able to guard him one on one. I told people I wanted to see Sullinger try to put up as many shots as possible over Withey. It turned out pretty well, and it turned out even better against AD in the Final. All that being said, becoming the go to guy in the post on offense could affect W on the other end, but the man does love to block shots.

Jack Wilson 9 years, 7 months ago

(cont) The flaw: Inexperience on offense

Stat to know: 56.2 percent

You rarely will see a rotation with three seniors that poses this much of a mystery. Withey, Elijah Johnson and Travis Releford are all talented veterans, but none of them has ever functioned as the featured player in the offense for an entire season. They didn't have to. Last season, that task fell to Thomas Robinson and Tyshawn Taylor, who during their minutes combined to account for a whopping 56.2 percent of the shots attempted by this offense. This season, those shots will fall to players unaccustomed to carrying the load for the Jayhawks. We're going to learn a lot about this offense in November, and I'll be watching to see who's taking all these newly available shots. Freshman Ben McLemore, for one, is expected to get his fair share. McLemore failed to qualify academically last season, but he's been earning high praise from outside observers in the offseason, and even grudging praise from Self ("Ben is good offensively"). Another freshman who might make his presence known early is Perry Ellis, a 6-foot-8 McDonald's All-American from Wichita, Kan. Self's shown a fondness throughout his career for high-low sets on offense, and if Ellis is as good as advertised, it's not too difficult to imagine him and Withey creating open looks for each other in the paint. Lastly, don't forget the old guys. During the Jayhawks' European tour in August, it was Johnson who led the team in shot attempts. You might recall Taylor suffering through a dreadful shooting slump during the NCAA tournament, and for long stretches it was Johnson who represented his team's best hope for a made 3. If Johnson can handle that pressure, he likely can expand his role on offense for a team that figures to dominate on defense. -- John Gasaway.


KUFan90 9 years, 7 months ago

My response to this section is that TRobb and Tyshawn were in the exact same position at the start of last year (they had not previously functioned as the featured player in the offense for an entire season).

I know we will see these guys step up the same way.

Jack Wilson 9 years, 7 months ago


The Freshmen

A pair of ESPN 100 commitments highlight a Kansas recruiting class that checked in at No. 13 nationally. If there's a buzz word surrounding the class, one might be inclined to use "balance." Elite KU classes are typically constructed around one or two headline recruits, but this is a foundation class that includes pieces to the long-term puzzle in Lawrence. Self can't bring back Robinson, so KU will try to replace his production with three frontcourt recruits. Ellis, a top 40 recruit, is the freshman big that enters with the most hype and best chance to play heavy minutes early. He's a versatile forward who scores in a variety of ways, has a nose for the rim in the lane and is a good finisher. Ellis has a comfort zone around the basket that will serve him well. He's also adept at playing up to 18 feet away from the basket and facing the rim. In the Big 12, he's unlikely to be the guy who goes from the wing to the rim, but he's a savvy player capable of running Kansas' offense and sharing the basketball. Mix in his winner's pedigree, in-state upbringing and skill set, and Self has a valuable freshman. Zach Peters, the first player to commit to Kansas, is a strong kid. He doesn't have a lot of natural quickness, but he owns the best perimeter touch of the freshman bigs and, like Ellis, comes from a winning situation (he's the former high school teammate of KU's top 2013 target, forward Julius Randle). Peters improved during the summer and has the physical maturity to play as a freshman. The final frontcourt member of this class is Landen Lucas. Like Peters, athleticism is not Lucas' calling card, but low-post play, sealing his man and playing around the free throw line as a passer are his primary skills. It's easy to picture him setting up in the high post and finding cutters to the rim. On the blocks, Lucas is a catch, turn and seal player who has a history of amassing strong rebounding numbers. Pencil Ellis into the rotation early and look for Peters and Lucas to push each other for playing time. Andrew White is going to play as a freshman because of his skill level. He's a wing player with great size (6-6) and a terrific stroke from 3-point range. As a junior, White was a mid-major recruit. He wasn't willing to accept that, began working harder and by last fall was an upper-tier national recruit. His ability to knock down 3s gets him on the floor. Rio Adams is the X factor. He's in limbo in terms of position. He's neither a point guard nor a pure scoring guard, but he brings a heavy dose of athletic ability and may earn early playing time based on his work on defense. Adams has all of the physical attributes to turn himself into a problem for opponents on that end.


HawkKlaw 9 years, 7 months ago

I love the first part of this. Bill Self is quietly, through recruiting, putting together some "foundation" players who will be at KU for the long haul. BMac probably won't play at KU for more than 2 years, but I see guys like Ellis, Frankamp and Greene being around for all 4 years. We have a lot to look forward to here in Kansas.

Ben Simonett 9 years, 7 months ago

Last year's class was never suppose to be a "foundation class".

The Morrii departure caught Self of guard which prevented him from landing the type of class he needed to replace them in '11. That failure to reload provided Self the opportunity in the '12 class to have legitimate immediate playing time to offer recruits for the first time since '06.

Everyone was saying the struggles in recruiting were do to KU having to much depth and recruits didn't want to have to wait there turn. Self didn't have that road block to overcome last year and all he could do was land the #10 class in the country.

So here we are again this year. plenty of immediate playing time for talented recruits to come right in a grab. This year's class can not be another "foundation" class. The talent has to get reloaded this year, there are no more excuses!

HawkKlaw 9 years, 7 months ago

Struggles in recruiting? Sorry, I just don't see it. Are you not happy with players like Ellis, Frankamp and Greene? They will all be elite players at KU for a long time. And there are another 2 or 3 great recruits that we are still likely to get before next season. I don't see any reason to complain about landing recruits like that. That's just nit-picky.

Also, you say "plenty of immediate playing time," but look at our starters: EJ, Travis Releford, BMac, Ellis & Withey. And our bench is fairly stacked with the likes of Young, White, Tharpe, and Peters. Where exactly is this immediate playing time you speak of? Those guys are all going to play a ton of minutes this year.

HawkKlaw 9 years, 7 months ago

...And if we're looking at next season, we do have a need at the PG position (Bill Self is attempting to address this right now), but we've also got Tharpe (I think he will be really good next season), Adams (will be a solid backup PG next season), BMac (probably), White (with a year under his belt he will be ready to take on a huge role next season), Frankamp, Greene, Ellis, Peters, etc. We already have a lot of talent for next season. I call them "foundation" players because most of them will probably be at KU for 4 years. Bill Self is not going to lie to any recruits and promise immediate playing time if there isn't any. The only position he could promise that for right now is the PG position, but only if the recruit is exceptional.

Ben Simonett 9 years, 7 months ago

I'm not complaining.....yet.

Merely stating the fact that expectations for a great class this year are as high, if not higher, then they were for last years class and last years class fell short. 1 year ago at this time everybody was convinced Self was setting up for a big haul(Self stated on multiple occasions the '12 was crucial). then Tarc went to Zona, things collapsed and suddenly the mindset changed that "last years class was never going to be an elite class, it was tagged as a foundation class from the beginning"

White and Ellis were great signings. but the over all class came in below expectations after the miss on Tarc. Its entirely possible the way things are trending for this years class to play out the same way: 5 man class with 2 studs(Greene and fFankamp) and three "less than ideal" recruits.

If that happens are we going to chalk it up as another "foundation" class? how many classes of foundation do you need before you bring in the big guns and make a run at a title with a stacked roster?

The immediate playing time stems from the fact that when this years class gets on campus 3 starters(possibly 4 w/BMAC) will be gone and the remaining guys could easily get passed on the depth chart from a pure talent standpoint alone(for the top recruits).

Similarly, any of the top guys(ranked 1-30) from last years class would pass Tharpe, Young, Peters and White on the depth chart and would be seeing minutes this year.

Bottom Line: Getting guys like Ellis, Greene, Frankamp, and White is good. but a program like KU should be bringing in that caliber of recruit 4-5 deep during its reloading years on the recruiting trail.

John Randall 9 years, 7 months ago

Another lamentation of someone who doesn't understand that the rating services don't have as good a set of standards as HCBS.

Curtis Stutz 9 years, 7 months ago

Struggling is an exaggeration, but I think KU fans have to be a little disappointed not to have kept up recruiting at the same pace after the title as it had been before Self had a FF and NC under his belt. These things happen though, I mean UF hasn't had a lot of recruiting success since back-to-back titles. Some people don't want to follow up greatness. It's part of the reason I was honestly shocked that Noel wanted to go to UK and try to fill AD's shoes, 'cause he won't be able to. Same thing goes at KU though, would you want to try to fill TRob's shoes? Biggest thing to the top talent is how are your players being drafted. UK has a huge jump on everybody recently 'cause they keep sending top recruits to the top of the draft board. Self's track record of sending these guys to the lottery is growing with TRob following the Morris twins following Henry and Cole, Rush and Wright. But some guys like Selby, Arthur, Chalmers, Simien just haven't been big time draft picks. Had Simien had NBA height, Chalmers stuck around for a senior season NPOY campaign, Selby not been injured and Arthur been drafted at a reasonable position, recruiting would be easier. As is Self took a team with 4 top50 recruits to the title game, he could do the same thing this season, and then next season KU should be back to having 6 top50 recruits on the roster, which is a load of talent. A lot of us would rather root for the #50 recruit starting as a jr and sr than the #4 recruit only playing as a freshman. I think any KU fan would agree we've gotten more from our #23 and #31 pickups in 2009 than our #8 pickup or our #1 pickup in 2011, got a lot from #77 TT from class of '08. Getting #7 David Padgett wasn't nearly as fruitful as scoring Sasha Kaun or Darnell Jackson. So you can be upset to not have Tarc or someone like him, but in the end we might end up being so much happier having Peters and Lucas on the team...And then also what HawkKlaw said about minutes for next year. The only teams ahead of KU that didn't have more minutes to offer are IU and NCSt, but if you consider BMac part of this class since he's eating up a huge chunk of the minutes that opened up there really isn't any disparity between those recruiting classes.

Jack Wilson 9 years, 7 months ago


Looking ahead, 2013 is where Kansas can do damage. Self already has one of the premier guards in the country in Conner Frankamp (Wichita/North) on board. Wing Brannen Greene (Monroe, Ga./Tift County) is a 6-7 shooting specialist. Together, they give Self a pair of elite snipers behind the arc. -- Dave Telep

The expectation

Self is quietly telling people that McLemore may be the best freshman he's ever had at Kansas. And the much-improved Withey is a logical candidate for any national defensive player of the year awards this season. But if there is a key to Kansas' season, it may be Johnson's ability to handle the point guard position. Johnson was patient enough to back up guys like Xavier Henry, Sherron Collins, Josh Selby, Brady Morningstar and Tyrel Reed in his first two years as a Jayhawk, but he came into his own as a junior. In fact, he averaged 15 points a game down the stretch of Kansas' run to the Final Four last season. Now, the pressure will be on Johnson to not only score but set up his teammates, as well. While not a naturally gifted ball handler, he is a good passer and an effective ball mover in Self's offense. If he can grow into a playmaking guard, as Taylor did, Kansas has an excellent opportunity to go far in the NCAA tournament again. A spot in the Elite Eight is a realistic goal, and another run to the Final Four is a definite possibility. -- Fran Fraschilla

soapisurfriend 9 years, 7 months ago

My prediction: Jeff Withey will record at least one official triple-double this year. Against a good team too, not just against WU in exhibition. #gettinwitheywithit #bigwitheystyle #shorthairdontcare

REHawk 9 years, 7 months ago

Thanks, HEM. ESPN voices what be seem to have the Jayhawks well positioned on their radar. I am very encouraged about Self's praise of Kevin Young whom I view as a major threat to turn the tide in windswept waters.

Alex Berger 9 years, 7 months ago

Thanks HEM for the post. Honestly, I think this year has a better chance at a FF run than 2013-2014. With Withey as such a defensive force, KU will be keeping games low-scoring and we have McLemore as a playmaker as well as a few spot-up shooters. After this year we will be relying more on offensive output and have an extremely young team. This year will be a good shot at a NC and after that I think we will have an off year (think 2006 or 2007) before we are a well oiled machine again.

Jack Wilson 9 years, 7 months ago

You're right .. but it was ESPN insider and not everyone has insider access.

TexasHawk44 9 years, 7 months ago

One doesn't need a research prosect to understand that Jaybate is skin sack full of stupidity.

Robin Smith 9 years, 7 months ago

I understand you are displeased with jaybate, but he hasn't even posted on this article.

Chris Shaw 9 years, 7 months ago

I want to pose a question for the board. I have been through a very similar "Boot Camp" with my college coach/team back in the day and I hated every minute of it. With that said, even though I hated it, I do admit it does bring out a "Team" concept and a sense of unity for the players. However, I always felt as a player that that my physical pounding during that two weeks took an extreme toll on my body, by losing weight, aches and pains in my knees and for me it always seemed like it took the rest of October and November to get back to healthy again.

Anyway, this is my question...........................most coaches these days have experienced or know of "Boot Camp" so Kansas and Bill Self are pretty well known nationally for doing this and I am curious if you think other top coaches use this against Kansas as a negative recruiting tool?

I mean, we all know what Divas most of these "Top Recruits" are these days so I am curious whether or not it has an impact. Do you really see guys like Shabazz Muhammed, Julius Randle, Andrew Wiggins, or Jabari Parker wanting to go through Boot Camp? I am not trying to stir the pot.......just trying to get some dialogue. Maybe I am thinking too much into it?

Robin Smith 9 years, 7 months ago

I think it is used against us, it is a detractor for certain recruits, and that we are better for it.

The 8 straight Big 12 titles likely has as much to do with the fact that we have the right kinds of people in our program and more importantly an absence of the wrong kind of people.

Marcia Parsons 9 years, 7 months ago

I don't think it's a problem, BigMan. I think the players consider it something to brag about after it's over (probably have "I Survived Boot Camp" t-shirts), and I also think all teams have their own version of boot camp. Besides, the elite recruits you mentioned probably think they could complete it without any problem and better than anyone else.

Jack Wilson 9 years, 7 months ago

How about answering your excellent question with a question ... do we even want a player that will choose another university (in whole or in part) because he's scared of boot camp?

Easy answer there.

texashawk10 9 years, 7 months ago

What HEM said. If a player's not willing to put in the work in the preseason, why would Bill Self want a player like that on his team.

Joe Baker 9 years, 7 months ago

I think coaches will use anything today for a recruiting edge. I like Self's blue-collar approach and work ethic. I like the earn it and play mentality.

Tony Bandle 9 years, 7 months ago

WOW!! Maybe we can all take a deep breath and loosen up a bit. As Monty Python used to say "..and now for something completely different."

I would be most curious if you KU posters would tell me who the most famous person you actually met and talked with. For me, soccer legend Pele and, on a NY subway, Kathleen Turner.

Gary Wirsig 9 years, 7 months ago

  • James Dobson, of Focus on the Family, at a Blockbuster in Colorado Springs
  • Dave Johnson - the decathlete of "Dan and Dave" fame, while working out on the Air Force Academy track
  • Jim Ryun, who also sent me a letter which was read at my retirement from the Air Force

AndOne 9 years, 7 months ago

Sophia Loren Bob Dole JoJo White Bill Self

Tony Bandle 9 years, 7 months ago

Well, Sophie Loren sure trumps Kathleen Turner!!

Alohahawk 9 years, 7 months ago

Big Wilt, in The Rose and Crown Pub in Waikiki, in which I managed at the time. It's been a while but I think it was about 1983 or 1984? It was early afternoon. The bar was almost empty. He was with a friend of mine. Shook my hand. I mentioned I was a Jayhawk. He asked when I had attended KU. Was friendly and accommodating. I'm 6' 7", but he towered above me. The top of my head was about even with his shoulders.

Arnold Schwarzenegger, in the same bar (1984 or 1985?). He came in with some people I knew, and we were introduced. Unfortunately, it was crowded that night, and he was instantly recognized, mobbed by adoring fans, and was forced to quickly exit.

And Don Johnson aka "The Rock", in Wyland Art Gallery in Aloha Tower Marketplace - Downtown Honolulu, in 2004. (The gallery has since closed.). I worked in the gallery, and actually sold him a large painting of Diamond Head. He bought the painting because it reminded him of his dad, who, according to him, had always enjoyed looking at Diamond Head. The sale took about forty-five minutes. His (former) wife was with him and she was wearing a very LARGE diamond ring. My fellow employees in the gallery were all envious that I had the longest time to talk with him, but they all had the opportunity to meet him after the sale. Then, he came back the next night with some friends to show them the painting he'd bought. It was to be shipped to his LA offices the following week. For privacy, we closed the gallery doors for a few minutes while he was there. He grew up in Hawaii and has a large following in the islands.

This is fun, and interesting. Mahalo, OakvilleJHawk.

RJ King 9 years, 7 months ago

John Riggins, George Brett, David Jaynes, Nolan Cromwell, Mike Palawski, Steve Towle, Bill Romanowski, Tony Bruno . . .

jgkojak 9 years, 7 months ago

Interesting - I thought Young showed a lot of promise last year -

Wondering if he put on some weight, got in condition and got his head on straight, if he'll end up starting?

That would give us a 4 Senior starting line-up (Johnson, Releford, Young, Withey) and then McLemore -- would take the pressure off of Ellis and give us a hell of a lot of experience - that core 4 went to the NC game together.

Jack Wilson 9 years, 7 months ago

Personally, I really like KY off the bench. He brings energy and a little something different. It's great to have that inject of energy at the 14 minute mark or so.

And although we all really love KY's boot camp performance, remember, that's exercise ... skill wins the day in basketball. KY is most likely just not as good of a basketball player as Ellis. KY has his own skill set and limitations, and we've seen that in action. With some guys, "less" is actually "more." Like a change of pace running back in the NFL. With KY, I think he's perfect at 15-18 minutes per game. Otherwise, my opinion is that he would get exposed and his value would decrease.

He may start early, but my hunch is that Ellis assumes that role before Christmas and KY is the first big guy off the bench.

HawkKlaw 9 years, 7 months ago

I agree with this completely. KY is the spark that KU will need off the bench and he will be relied upon to bail Ellis out of those "Freshman mistakes" that he will likely make a lot of.

Woody Cragg 9 years, 7 months ago

Good observations & thanks for the link. I recall Young said the same things last year about camp & running.

Alex Resnik 9 years, 7 months ago

HEM - Everything you have been posting about today I completely agree with. I remember a couple of months ago when people were predicting that KY would start, I could not disagree more for the reason you stated, he is an AMAZING energy guy off the bench. I wouldn't be surprised if he starts at the beginning of the year either, but I am of the belief that Ellis needs to be thrown into the fire early and watch him shine!

Robin Smith 9 years, 7 months ago

I'm guessing Young knew exactly what kind of competition he had coming in this season and has gone to work, hard. He's very smart, has that intangible timeliness, works very hard, and has a diverse skill set.

I think Young is going to impress a lot of people this year, even if he already impressed them last year.

(And if he's starting it's because he's awesome and not because Ellis can't cut it)

Curtis Stutz 9 years, 7 months ago

While I like HEM's comment it might be too early to tell. KYo seems like the classic guy off the bench, and it's often nice to have a senior off the bench as you look to the bench sometimes when things get heated on the court to settle everyone down. The thing that might make KYo more or possible even less important this season is the loss of TT. KYo definitely makes things happen out there. Also I think he knew what TT was going to do before TT even knew it, and really found the right spot on the court/made the right cuts to give TT an outlet on his drives. So on the one hand I think Self will want to run his classic offenseive sets more rather than go for penetration as TT often did last year. Which leads me to think of KYo as a spark guy off the bench that isn't afraid to try to thread the needle on some passes or make a cut to the hoop for a dunk attempt. Might depend on team chemistry though, might need his court vision more than last season in which case it's easy to think of him as a starter.

Alex Resnik 9 years, 7 months ago

I see what you are saying, but KY just finds space so well, no matter who is driving. Now, if your point is, "who will our slasher be?" I agree, he could lose some value there, but with his knack to find space in the lane and finish quickly, those two skills are valuable w/o s slasher

Tony Bandle 9 years, 7 months ago

Harrison Twins to UK..does that help us or hurt us recruitment-wise. Obviously, we were never on their radar but what collateral recruitment benefit does this possibly bring?

Any Thoughts???

Jack Wilson 9 years, 7 months ago

One collateral bit of damage .. I think it decreases our chances with Roddy Peters. Maryland would have been off his radar had the Harrson's gone the Terp route.

Ben Simonett 9 years, 7 months ago

That means Randle is a wildcat.

Improves our chances with Parker(slightly).

Overall neutrel impact on the staffs current positioning.

edit: forgot about Ptters, slight loss there but i've never been a pro-second-PG guy

Curtis Stutz 9 years, 7 months ago

I was definitely worried about Selden going to UK if the twins went to MD, biggest upside to their decision. Bottom line is UK was going to get 4-5 top recruits with expectations for Poythress, Noel and possible Goodwin to leave. If I was a guard or wing I'd think for a while about going to UK. Goodwin and Harrow could easily return to play with the Harrisons and Wiltjer and Cauley will both be back. Randle knows he can go there and be the big post threat, knowing Parker isn't going to UK and Wiggins probably doesn't reclassify makes it that much easier for him. I mean I'd still like to see Randle at KU, but Selden and Shepherd/Embiid would be plenty to be happy about.

Vernon Riggs 9 years, 7 months ago

Selden, Gordon, Shepherd becomes Jayhawks.

Joins Frankamp and Greene to make a SUPER 2013 Class

Alohahawk 9 years, 7 months ago

Aha! You read my post from the other article.:>)

However, along with Shepherd I did add "or Embiid", as the third option. And if Randle doesn't make a decision soon, Gordon might (that's might) jump the gun ahead of him, and that would make him reconsider about how much playing time there will be at Kenstinky. And give him a nudge towards KU? Oh, who knows just how these dominoes will fall?

Jack Wilson 9 years, 7 months ago


But I think Roberson might be a one of the better bets.

offline 9 years, 7 months ago

The Harrison twins is a great loss for KU and just shows what a mess this recruiting at KU is. Self has been out recruited the last 5 years and it shows with what KU has coming back and what is coming in. The good ones get away from Self. Calipari out rucuits Self at all levels. Calipari is the one coach Ku should have went after. KUs loss.

Tony Bandle 9 years, 7 months ago


Tony Bandle 9 years, 7 months ago

"recruits"..or is that how you all spell it in Kengtucy??

Alohahawk 9 years, 7 months ago

Boy, you said it! They're not worth the 'you know what paper' which they use as napkins.

cmarrs077 9 years, 7 months ago

sweet man, he might have been out recruited but in the past 5 years but kansas still wins conference and national titles thats all that matters. great post though tell someone who cares RCJH

hammerhawk 9 years, 7 months ago

Golly. This is a really brutal thread!! I'm just happy to be talking and reading about the Mighty Kansas Jayhawks BASKETBALL team. Coach Self is preparing another powerful conference team that will be destined for greatness. I love the phrase "reloading" because that's what we do at Kansas. I never take anything for granted when it comes to college sports, but I always feel good about our chances - of beating kaystate, again, as well as the rest of 'em.

RockChalk26 9 years, 7 months ago

Good to see that Danny Manning made the trip from Tulsa to attend Boot Camp. Also good to see that we freed up a scholarship to bring back C.J. Giles.

REHawk 9 years, 7 months ago

The incessant reappearance of that old photo is beginning to churn into something fit for the Comedy Channel.

Tony Bandle 9 years, 7 months ago

I do like how they outfitted the new practice facility to closely resemble Allen Fieldhouse in order to get the guys the feeling of the Ole Barn even in practice!! The attention to detail is could almost think you were actually on Naismith Court!!

REHawk 9 years, 7 months ago

For Bill Self Basketball, Kevin Young is the perfect insert from the bench. Yeah, he might start occasionally until Perry rolls with the flow. But after Christmas, barring injury or unlikely social mayhem, KY's primary role will be to leap off the bench to turn things around. As he continues to develop as a steady player, he is likely to clock lots of dollars playing on the European pro circuit. After all, he will again be a key ingredient in the 8-man rotation which will have navigated to a Final Four in his final two years of collegiate play!

Alohahawk 9 years, 7 months ago

Sweet sweat, it is. We'll always have a place in our hearts for Sasha.

TexasHawk44 9 years, 7 months ago

This comment was removed by the site staff for violation of the usage agreement.

soapisurfriend 9 years, 7 months ago

According to ESPNChicago, Jabari Parker has cut KU. He reportedly cut his list to BYU, Stanford, Duke, MSU, and Florida.

Priest Fontaine 9 years, 7 months ago

Disappointing but Greene is such a similar player. Not quite as talented but at least we will have him in the system for at least a few years.

What we really need is:

  1. a replacement for Withey (either Shepherd or Embiird)
  2. another combo guard to replace Johnson and Releford (Selden and/or Peters and/or Young)
  3. a superstar forward (Randle, Gordon, or Roberson)

I'll be happy with any combination, but of course I got to list my updated wish list of: Shepherd!!! Selden!!! & Randle!!!

How's that for best recruiting class ever?!!!

TexasHawk44 9 years, 7 months ago

I never felt we were really ever in this race to begin with.

Priest Fontaine 9 years, 7 months ago

Jordan ads on the KUSPORTS site? Where you at Adidas???

imzcount 9 years, 7 months ago

You guys just have to realize that Jaybate doesn't like to be criticized.

TexasHawk44 9 years, 7 months ago

AlohaHawk- you may have met him, but Don Johnson was on Miami Vice and does not in any way resemble "The Rock" His name is Dwayne Johnson. In comparison, Don is more "pebble" than Rock.

Michael Luby 9 years, 7 months ago

Im thinking our offense will be more by committee this year. Nearly all of our starters will average 10+ points. It'll be fun to watch! Cant we start the season early?

REHawk 9 years, 7 months ago

Until we see McLemore and Ellis swing into the flow of BIll Self Basketball, it is difficult to predict scoring distribution. Even Andrew White might be a player who can rack up 10 points in 15 minutes of play. I look to see Withey score more this season. Hard to predict EJ's scoring, as he will focus on ball distribution; but is likely to bag at least a couple of 20+ point games. But, all in all, you are probably right on target, Lulu. Lots of players who can log double figures in the scoring column. Not so much dependence on 2 players, as was the case last year. In my mind, Travis is a question mark. Out of h.s., when he played on a USA jr. team, he did a fine job of scoring. I look to see him score more this season, now that he has mastered other aspects of his game. However, if team defense is risky, Travis once again will be forced to focus primarily on defense.

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