San Diego State defeats Kansas, 61-57

  • 3:30 p.m., Jan. 5, 2014
  • Allen Fieldhouse, Lawrence, KS

Sunday, January 5, 2014

Offensively challenged Jayhawks suffer rare home loss, 61-57 to San Diego State

A row of unhappy faces fill the student section as San Diego State grabs the victory on Sunday, Jan. 5, 2013 at Allen Fieldhouse.

A row of unhappy faces fill the student section as San Diego State grabs the victory on Sunday, Jan. 5, 2013 at Allen Fieldhouse.


Kansas University junior floor leader Naadir Tharpe figures some soul-searching is in order following a once-in-seven-years occurrence — a home non-conference loss in Allen Fieldhouse.

“On Monday, I’m going to ask the guys, ‘How much do we really care about what’s on the front of our jersey? How much do we care about winning (for Kansas)?’” Tharpe said after Sunday’s 61-57 loss to San Diego State, KU’s first at home to a non-Big 12 foe since a 78-71 setback to Oral Roberts on Nov. 15, 2006.

The streak encompassed 68 games.

Podcast episode

Press Conferences & Post-Game Interviews

Joel Embiid, Frank Mason, Andrew Wiggins discuss KU's 61-57 loss to San Diego State

Joel Embiid, Frank Mason, Andrew Wiggins discuss KU's 61-57 loss to San Diego State

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Podcast episode

Press Conferences & Post-Game Interviews

KU coach Bill Self discusses his team's 61-57 loss to No. 21 San Diego State

KU coach Bill Self discusses his team's 61-57 loss to No. 21 San Diego State

Download podcast

KU-SDSU box score, Jan. 5, 2014

Box Score

The Keegan Ratings - San Diego State

Keegan Ratings

“I’ve been here a long time. Some of the guys ahead of me (on depth chart his first two years at KU) ... tears came down dudes’ eyes when we lost. I know nobody on this team wants to lose. Everybody, including myself, has to bring more to the table,” Tharpe added.

Tharpe, who was playing on a tender ankle that he sprained at practice Wednesday, was as cold as the frigid weather outside, missing eight of 10 shots on a day the Jayhawks hit a historically-low 29.8 percent of their shots.

It’s the worst shooting performance by a KU team in Allen since field goals and field goal attempts became an official stat in 1988-89.

“I thought, of course, our offense was totally inept, in large part because they really guard,” Self said of the No. 21-ranked (12-1) Aztecs. “There was definitely a lid (on basket), the biggest lid was they really guard. We made five shots outside of six inches — four threes (in 16 tries) and Frank (Mason) made a long two. Those are the only shots we made that were not layups. It’s hard to win if can’t make the defense pay for sagging.”

Of course, the shooting wasn’t the only problem. San Diego State outrebounded No. 16-ranked KU, 51-39.

“Rebounding we were obviously gawd-awful,” Self said, “and they whipped us physically. Still, we had a chance and the crowd tried to help us (cheering wildly down the stretch).”

One foiled chance came when the Jayhawks, who were down by as many as 11 (38-27 at 13:44 and 42-31 at 10:31), cut it to 57-55 following a Mason three with 1:21 left.

After a missed shot, KU rebounded, but the ball slipped through Mason’s hands as he was beginning to accelerate on the break. KU suffered had a big turnover with just under a minute left.

“Frank’s got the ball in transition and just loses it. I don’t know how. He said it slipped out of his hands,” Self said.

Next, with :46 left and KU still down two, the officials had to visit the monitor before ruling that a rebound had gone off KU freshman Joel Embiid out of bounds. San Diego State kept possession to a booing crowd’s dismay.

“It’s hard for me to be upset with officials if they look at it. They are not going to call it the wrong way on purpose. It obviously was off us,” Self said. “What I was hoping for, what I told John (ref, Higgins) ... I said, ‘If it takes six eyes and you can’t figure it out, at least we know it’s indisputable. So if it’s indisputable, call it a jump ball.’ The possession arrow was ours,” Self added with a smile.

“I guarantee you it was the right call. I don’t even have to look at it. No way they would miss that with three guys looking at it.”

KU had additional chances to force overtime.

JJ O’Brien missed the front end of a one-and-one at :34.6, KU gaining possession and calling time out at :20, still down two.

Perry Ellis (four points, 1-8 shooting) accepted the ball up high and was fouled on a drive. He made the first free throw, and after a San Diego State time out, missed the second at 11.9 seconds, as KU trailed, 57-56.

“Perry had a chance to make the free throw late, but you hate to put it on one free throw or one guy because there are 1,000 plays in a game that can help change the outcome,” Self said. “Everything is magnified late and we just didn’t get it done.”

Next, Xavier Thames (16 points, 5-16 shooting, 4-4 free throws) cashed two free throws at 8.3 seconds to give the Aztecs a 59-56 lead.

KU, in theory had a chance to tie, but S.D. State coach Fisher had an Aztec foul Mason at 5.7 seconds rather than let KU launch a possible game-tying three.

Mason missed the first free throw and hit the second.

Down 59-57, KU again fouled Thames at 4.6 seconds and he hit a pair of charities to wrap up the victory.

“The difference is this, and it’s something minor, but twice we put two guys on Thames on out of bounds under spot throw-ins and he still caught it,” Self said of the senior standout. “All we had to do was make somebody else catch it and they throw it to their best free-throw shooter and of course he’s going to make them because he’s clutch. That’s the difference. He just wanted the ball and we have to make our guys want the ball like that. That was just young guys playing against old guys and they just knew how to compete better down the stretch.”

Freshmen Andrew Wiggins and Wayne Selden went a combined 6-of-22 from the field, good for 20 points. Only Mason (4-8, 14 points) and Joel Embiid (3-5, 12 points) shot 50 percent or better for KU, which fell to 9-4 heading into Wednesday’s 6 p.m., Big 12 opener at Oklahoma.

“We’re a target,” Tharpe said, “everybody’s going to give us their best shot, especially in the league. “We can’t dwell on this. We have to focus in on what coach says, be in tune with what coach is saying and do everything we can to win.”


Yonatan Negash 7 years, 2 months ago

Painful game to watch. It has to get better sooner than later.

I'm not as confident about this team as I was couple months ago.

Personally, I would rather have five guys with a lot of heart then guys that are overly hyped.

Bryce Landon 7 years, 2 months ago

You mean like the 2011-12 team that played for the national title?

Preston Dwiggins 7 years, 2 months ago

I understand your frustration, but I don't see anyone saying that at the beginning of the season. This team was and IS LOADED. Patience my friend :)

Benz Junque 7 years, 2 months ago

Talent alone doesn't win games. MAKING SHOTS wins games and this team has consistently sucked at making shots. Every tema that has had the athletes strong enough to defend the post has beat this team because they have no one that can make a jumper. Even their "best" shooters have sucked.

These guys need to get their crap together and start to play some ball. They need to quit being so careless with the ball and play more aggressively. They need to put some extra time in shooting the ball.

I have seen good teams have bad days. Last night did not look like that. That Kansas team that I watched last night was just not very good. If it was Game #2 of the season I would be patient. It isn't. Patience is something that this team better not think they need. It is time to walk the walk, boys. Andrew Wiggins needs to actually play like a good player. Perry Ellis needs to play like a good player. Embiid, Selden, Tharpe, the list goes on. NONE of them look like good players right now.

Talent doesn't mean $h!t if you do nothing with it. EFFORT and EXECUTION win games, not talent. More talented players who play with effort and who execute should have better results against a wider range of opponents that less talented players, but right now Kansas is nothing BUT talent.

Allin Herring 7 years, 2 months ago

And how long do we have to wait on a team with a ton of "potential" NBA players?? At some point this "potential" has to turn into RESULTS! I am beginning to believe all this potential is just a bunch of hype! Wiggins needs to understand that if he is the next Lebron he needs more than the ability to do layups. How about a jump shot?? Heck how about a jump shot on the whole team!

Benz Junque 7 years, 2 months ago

Just a reminder that Lebron couldn't hit a jumper until about two years ago...

Walter Bridges 7 years, 2 months ago much as we disagree, you are dead on. This team is the 12/13 version of Kentucky. Playing the top RPI schedule means nothing if you lose. I've seen little to no improvement.

And to others, I DO have patience but this isn't on a global timescale measuring the retreat and expansion of glaciers - this season could end in mid March.

It's players like White, Greene, Frankamp, Lucas that have brought the most success to KU. Top 50 players who stick around 3-4 years. I can't believe I'm saying this but maybe HCBS did too good of a job recruiting w/the exception of having a competent PG. I bought into the hype but maybe ONE OAD a year is more than enough.

Alex Berger 7 years, 2 months ago

A few small things our guys need that will come with time and experience:

  • Having a soft touch around the rim on layups (comes with getting used to the speed of the college game)

  • Moving on offense off-ball (would help our PGs out a ton)

  • Not letting the ball stick and keep making extra passes until easy shots open up

  • Boxing out

  • Switching on defense

  • Quick outlet passes after scores and rebounds to get us into the transition game

We just had a really bad shooting night, otherwise that game was there for the taking. SDSU, and other experienced defensive teams, will be the achilles heel of our team this year. I'm glad we are playing these teams in non-conf so that we can get some valuable experience. Hopefully we can get some wins against good teams to help with confidence though.

And Andrew Wiggins - DUNK THE BALL!!!

Suzi Marshall 7 years, 2 months ago

Our guys could use some lessons about not standing flat footed. One example is the first half, 6:57, Thames throws a lazy pass to Shepard from the wing across the front of the court. The ball damm near hits Wiggins but he stands there flat footed and lets the ball float on by. There are numerous exampls of our guys standing flat footed while the SDSU guys are hussling for possition or the ball. Fact is, this team just does not want to put in the effort to win tough games. They talk the talk but faill to back it up with game time performances.

Tharpe has has to be one of the worst defensive guards to wear a Kansas uniform. Whoever Tharpe was gaurding became the guy that scored. If you go back over the tape, the various guys he gaurded scored about 20 of SDSU's 81 points. Not to mention the rebounds their guards got with him not blocking out.

Nick Rushton 7 years, 2 months ago

Flat-footed is right. Wiggs looked flat-footed when he was off the ball almost the entire second half. I was yellling at the TV for HCBS to sub him out.

Kevin Huffman 7 years, 2 months ago

Ummm, we don't have THAT MUCH time & experience to gain. We're nearly 45% done with the reg. season ALREADY!!!

Walter Bridges 7 years, 2 months ago

I cannot agree..that wasn't a 'bad night', that was a bad team getting beaten by a better one. It's been a long time since I've seen a KU team get 'punked' at home.

Alex Berger 7 years, 2 months ago

KU lost by 4 to the #13 team in the country while shooting 29%. 29% is a bad night when the team averages 49& on the year. "Bad team" ... ha.

Michael Bratisax 7 years, 2 months ago

I think they were ranked #21 but nice spin. And just maybe we shot 29% because of their defensive play or we are just not a very good shooting team. Only one starter shoots above 50% from the floor and 33% for the team from the three. Another 'nice spin'.

As for your 2005-06 comparison..that's one you don't want to make. We were lead by a Sr. PG (Jeff Hawkins), two highly ranked back-back recruiting classes who formed the nebulas of the 2008 championship team and not a single OAD.

Alex Berger 7 years, 2 months ago

1) They are ranked #13 right now. Who cares what they were ranked last week?

2) My whole point with shooting is that we as a team average 49%. Fact. They were missing lay ups and close range shots they normally make. Fact. That makes it a bad shooting night. We had the worst home shooting performance in 25 years and only lost by four. No spin needed.

3) We can absolutely compare this team to 05-06. Brandon Rush was supposed to be a OAD. After the year he decided to come back. Think that can't happen this year? Hawkins was the 8th leading scorer. Go look at the roster and schedule. It could end up being pretty dang familiar. And maybe this is the class that is the "nebulas" [sic] for the 14-15 'ship.

Michael Bratisax 7 years, 2 months ago

I think what counts is what they were when they played... Plus, yesterday was Sunday, you know, the 1st day of the week...unless you think ESPN and the AP rankings have somehow changed this. Why the need to obfuscate the facts?

From HCBS: “I thought, of course, our offense was totally inept, in large part because they really guard,” Self said of the No. 21-ranked (12-1) Aztecs [sic]. The LJW doesn't seem to need to change the FACTS, why do you? Rush was never an OAD. He played THREE seasons at KU.

I'm done. Tired of your 'whoppers' Mr. Burger. Write what you want. Maybe someone will read it.

Alex Berger 7 years, 2 months ago

I'm not sure what you are upset about, I'm not even trying to attack you. Just stating a case for how KU fans don't need to read too much from this loss and that there is room for teachable improvement. I don't even disagree that the Aztecs played good defense (see original post) or that Rush was here for 3 years. So I'll leave it at that and let my posts speak for themselves.

Michael Bratisax 7 years, 1 month ago

Not upset, frustrated. Not at you...I would probably end up buying you a beer if we were ever in the same bar and KU was playing..

This team was unfairly over-hyped and because of my disability, I allow myself to put too into KU BB.. Really..I never over stress KU Football.

But come on, "no more whoppers Mr Berger" CLASSIC!

Alex Berger 7 years, 2 months ago

Kansas fans should probably stop expecting the 07-08 team but should probably expect something closer to the 05-06 team. Here's a reminder:'s_basketball_team (might want to copy and paste instead of clicking)

Suzi Marshall 7 years, 2 months ago


Will you ask what the guys have against dunking the ball! We just finished reviewing the tape and these guys....Selden, Wiggins, Ellis and Black...all seem to prefer touch shots at the rim instead of jamming it down. That mystery rebounding foul called on Black at 14:29 was a play that Black had position for the rebound and should have dunked it off the miss intead of brining it down. Even Embiid, who minutes later had a shot blocked when he tried to ginerly lay it in off the glass instead of forcefully jamming it home.

If you get a chance to look over the tape, notice how SDSU plays big boy style jamming home every opportunity while we play like a group of HS momma's boys.

Suzi Marshall 7 years, 2 months ago

Thanks Rod and you and all Jayhawkers.

Mick Allen 7 years, 2 months ago

I can tell from some of your previous comments that you watch our games closely and you have made some good points. SDS was by far the best defensive team we've played. Their interior defense was outstanding with long, aggressive rim protectors. Perry gets his first 2 shots blocked and from then on was intimated in trying to finish. He also plays below the rim and can normally overcome this through positioning, ability to use both hands and excellent foot work. They blocked 8 shots, all in the interior. We blocked 13. My thought is when you see shot after shot bitch slapped inside, it makes you shoot quickly and reluctant to finish strong. One of the most humiliating things for a player is to see his sh t get blocked, even more humiliating is getting your attempt at a dunk thrown back at you.I think the 2 or 3 blocks they got early in the game made us more tentative and caused us self doubt in our ability to finish.

Suzi Marshall 7 years, 2 months ago

With Alexander, we have a monster coming in next year. ANYONE who tries to block one of his dunks will risk getting his hand broken off. I'm sure some will try but that number will be reduced after some broken fingers...and backboards.

Walter Bridges 7 years, 2 months ago

Please's a little early to start looking at next years OADs. Give me a top 50 player who is willing to learn. AW3 has been wasted on this team, I hope he transfers for his sake so he can show what he could have been doing here.

Benz Junque 7 years, 2 months ago

That was not good. KU came out AGAIN and started the game with two straight turnovers and it went down hill from there. They missed a ton of bunnies largely because they were scared of getting their shots blocked by the long armed SDSU players who swatted a number of shots and influenced many more.

KU does not look good. At all. They honestly have regressed in the last month. Their complete lack of awareness in blocking out was the most startling. At what point do you realize that SDSU keep putting back missed shot after missed shot and put a body on a guy? Those players should be pretty embarrassed with their efforts at that end of the floor.

Kevin Huffman 7 years, 2 months ago

I keep saying that & everyone's like - "they'll get better". Well, everyone was saying that would already happen a week or two into January and I would argue that we're looking WORSE - not better. Maybe better defensively because that's what Self was harping on so hard after the Toledo game, but so many other things went wrong.

That's now a (5-0) start w/ a No. 2 ranking down to (4-4) over their last 8 and most likely out of the Top 20 now.

Mick Allen 7 years, 2 months ago

Your first paragraph with regard to why we were unable to finish at the rim is spot on.

John Fitzgerald 7 years, 2 months ago

I fear this season may be Selfs worst one yet. A lot of talent, but as we're seeing talent doesn't always lead to victory. We lack a severe amount of heart, and until these guys find out what it takes to play with heart, it's going to be tough to beat good teams. Maybe one day it will click and from there they will get it, but I'm not confident heart is something that's learned. They have to find it themselves. Self can only coach the game and keep them inspired, but he cannot motivate them, they must motivate themselves. I pray we overcome this and have a strong conference season. RCJH

Allin Herring 7 years, 2 months ago

I agree these guys have read too many of their news clippings and think they can just walk their way to the NBA! So far I have not seen an NBA player on the team!! Their "potential is a bunch of hype and nothing else! It is time for RESULTS

Chris Shaw 7 years, 2 months ago

I am really struggling with Self's lineup changes. I think what's funny is that fan's in the past have always complained about him not letting guys "Figure It Out". Well, he's certainly letting Wayne Selden figure it out and I think that decision is bringing down this team.

Selden's inability to figure it out through 13 games is a big cause of concern for this team IMO. If Wiggins and Selden can't hit outside jumpers and stretch the D for Embiid and Ellis and take pressure off of Tharpe and Mason...this team is going to continue to struggle from an offensive standpoint.

Selden is 6'5", 230 lbs and he has 36 rebounds for the entire season. He had 1 rebound in 26 minutes last night. The kid is built like a tank, but his inability to be consistent and knock down jumpers is a big downfall to this team right now. It's called a "Shooting Guard" for a reason.

What's even more amazing to me is that Self has 3 of the better shooters in the entire country sitting on the bench getting a combined 3 minutes. How does that stretch the "D" with them sitting on the bench? Non-conference is suppose to be the time to "Figure It Out" and I feel like Self lost a lot of opportunities for Brannen Greene to figure it out.

I can understand AWIII being hurt and bad timing of everything but he could have gotten more opportunities. I mean, I sat court side at the Florida game and AWIII goes for a ball with his teammate and it goes out of his bounds. His Fault? Maybe maybe not, but we haven't seen AWIII since.

Now that conference play is here....Self is going to have to unfortunately figure out a lineup and rotation and stick with it so these kids can build some confidence and figure out what their "Roles" are without looking over their shoulder.

FWIW...In two minutes of play I thought Landen Lucas showed more heart and desire than anybody else on the team. He got two 50/50 balls and an offensive rebound and showed a ton of effort. He may not be the most talented, but the kid is a big body that played well despite missing those two Free Throws. I thought he made the most of his time.

Benz Junque 7 years, 2 months ago

I think I would put the rebounding problems on the BIGS who failed to block out over and over and over and over again in the 2nd half. They lost that game. I would put the loss on the three point shooters (Selden hit 1-2 for 50%). I would put it on the players that threw rainbow skip passes that were picked off easily and run back for dunks (Selden was not one of them).

Selden went to the hole on numerous occasions and just missed some bunnies. So did everyone else. Of all the guys I would pin this on, Selden would NOT be the one. Perry Ellis SUCKED last night and flat out choked at the line.

Chris Shaw 7 years, 2 months ago

Why do you think the "Big's' aren't playing well? Why the heck do you think my screen name is called BigManU? Have you not seen almost every opponent throw the entire Kitchen including the sink at KU defensively this year? Why is that? Because 1) Kansas is young (We all realize that) 2) They can't prove to anybody they can hit outside shots.

Teams are scheming to stop Joel Embiid and Perry Ellis. Wtih that said, if your shooting guard and the #1 recruit in the nation can't do anything but drive and turn the ball over...that creates extra pressure on the Big's to perform. Especially out of a double team if you can't make them pay from the perimeter out of a double team.

The Big's can't get all the rebounds. Selden is 230 lbs for a guard. He got 1 rebound. I am curious to the +/- ratio of when Selden is in the game this season. The offense is in a complete funk when Selden is thinking and trying to figure out what is going on out there.

Suzi Marshall 7 years, 2 months ago

When a Big goes for the blocks the others, including the guards, need to block out the others off the boards. Self spoke about that with his post game remarks.

Tharpe is horrible defensively and never ever blocks anyone off the boards. He just stands around flat footed while our opponents hustle around him. Tharpe does an pretty good job leading the offense but the rest of his game sucks. Mason and Selden are equally as bad but Tharpe is a Junior and suppose to be our leader.

Chris Shaw 7 years, 2 months ago

He did severely roll his ankle on Wednesday. I'll give Tharpe a pass. He still had 5 rebs with zero turnovers.

Suzi Marshall 7 years, 2 months ago

True, he does deserve cudos for playing and doing a decent job offensively. You can make an argument he held back defensively and blocking out due to his ankle...but he holds back in those areas all the time.

Chris Shaw 7 years, 2 months ago

Hold Back? What do you mean? Tharpe gets criticized last year for trying to step up and do too much when Relly, EJ, and B-MAC struggled because of their limitations offensively and this year when Wiggins and Selden are suppose to have do everything talent...Tharpe defers to those two and he gets criticized for holding back or being too passive.

In all honesty, Tharpe is in a bad spot and IMO in a no win situation. When the 2 and 3 spot start playing up to their will see the Big's and PG spot take care of itself.

Suzi Marshall 7 years, 2 months ago

I'm not talking about Tharpe's O and completely agree with you about our 2 and 3 playing under their potential. Tharpe does a decent job running the O.

I'm talking about the rest of Tharpe's game, like his D, its gawd-awfull.

Chris Shaw 7 years, 2 months ago

I agree about the Boards...hence why I said Selden only had 1 rebound.

Benz Junque 7 years, 2 months ago

Maybe we could remind the Bigs that we don't need THREE of them trying to block the same shot, leaving a bunch of 5'11" guards to try to block out the opponents Bigs!

Benz Junque 7 years, 2 months ago

Wayne Selden's +/= on the year:

ULM: +13 Duke: +14 Iona: +10 Towson: +9 WF: +1 Nova: +1 UTEP: +5 CU: -6 Fla: -10 UNM: +17 Gtown: +20 Toledo: +9 SDSU: -10

That's a +73 overall on the year. Perry Ellis: +105 Embiid: +139 (and no games where he was a minus, very nice) Tharpe: +77 Wiggins: +123

Chris Shaw 7 years, 2 months ago

Thanks for the stats. That is very telling actually. Since the Bahamas trip and that first game against Wake, which every team since has exploited Kansas' weaknesses in some way defensively with gimmick defenses, presses, and double teams in the post (SDSU) Selden is + 10 over that 8 game span. Not good at all.

Tharpe: +17 Ellis: +10 Wiggins +46 Embiid +61 Mason +24 Greene +1 Black +14 Traylor -12

Benz Junque 7 years, 2 months ago

My name is Ben Williamson if that matters in this conversation. I simply refuse to give my personal information to this website for them to sell. It's the same reason why the vast majority of Ku fans have LEFT this site. Good grief.

Perry Ellis IS one of our best players and that is preceisely why I was so upset. He SUCKED in this game. Not all season. IN THIS GAME. He had 4 points in 22 minutes shooting 1-8. I'm sorry, but where I come from that sucks. That's just one more shot than I made! He had a lousy 5 rebounds on a night where the two teams combined to miss a staggering 78 shots! 78 chances for a rebound and he got FIVE.

I understand that we all love Perry Ellis because he is "one of our own" being a player from in state. He is one of my favorites as well and I am with everyone else in AFH when I cheer the loudest for him during intros because he is from Kansas. But that does not mean that I have to lose perspective. I can still love the kid as a fan favorite and be realistic about his performance. I am not required to overlook his terrible performance because of my fandom.

Heck, I haven't mention the free throw at the end of the game before this because I refuse to roast a guy for missing a shot like that. It happens. It's one play. It was his LACK of plays for the other 59:48 that I have a problem with. To say he didn't SUCK yesterday is to simply overlook his performance because of previous performances. I am not calling for his renmoval from the team or the lineup, just for him to step up and perform as he should be expected to. I am 100% confident that Perry Ellis would agree that he did not perform at an acceptable level.

Benz Junque 7 years, 2 months ago

Self-righteous? Eh, OK. I merely stated my opinion about one game, not the entire season as he was implying.

So do you think that Perry Ellis had a good game? If so, why?

Kevin Huffman 7 years, 2 months ago

Chris Shaw - I 100% AGREE WITH YOU!!!!!

I saw the same things....on the year with regards to Selden.

I also agree with Benz Junque that yesterday's loss was MOST on Ellis.

Wish Greene had seen more time and considered the 2 mins. played by Lucas to be the most effort I saw from any KU player in that game yesterday.....maybe a bit of the effort there from Mason in spurts in the 2nd half.

Walter Bridges 7 years, 2 months ago

Selden is 'Seldom'. Seldom scores, Seldom rebounds, Seldom makes plays. Why Self doesn't treat him as other Freshmen have been in the past?

I would really like to see White and Greene play more without being yanked immediately after a mistake.

Michael Bratisax 7 years, 1 month ago

Yeah..have you removed your foot yet : ) Hopefully it will be Selden from here on although he still managed to disappear a few time at OU

Jack Jones 7 years, 2 months ago

Ah, Suze ~ The game is so easy when you're sitting at home on your sofa, with the remote in your hand, isn't it? Look, I am as disappointed in how our team has played this season (note to myself ~ where did that team that beat Duke disappear to?) ~ but, we have to be realists and accept the fact that this is the least experienced KU team I can recall going back a long, long time. I saw a figure recently comparing the number of D-1 playing time minutes for this team v/s the national average, and it was absurdly low. Bill Self is a great coach ~ but, I would strongly suggest that you don't 'coach' experience ~ just as you don't 'coach' someone to be 7 ft. As a partial answer to the question I asked myself earlier (about the team that beat Duke) ~ this team has a whole bunch of extremely talented individual players ~ whose talent was on full display that particular night ~ and at times in subsequent games ~ and I'm afraid we are guilty of the common sports fan's malady ~ over-hyping our expectations. I believe we couldn't have a better coach to eventually form this group of super talented players into an extremely good team. Good enough to continue our string of Big 12 titles? ~ time and experience will tell. In the meantime, let me suggest that whining and moaning about the team or individual players will accomplish only one thing ~ I guess you will feel better ~ for a moment. Keep the faith.

Rodney Crain 7 years, 2 months ago

Ah, Jack, It is so easy when you your are sitting in your lazy boy with your keyboard in your hand, isn't it? (sounds condescending does"t it?)

The concern is that these young talented players are not getting better, not learning to play as a team. They are making freshman mistakes that will get better, sure, but they are also making fundamental basketball mistakes as well. They play way to many games to be making simple basketball IQ mistakes right now.

Acting like it is a waste of time to voice valid concerns about how poorly we are playing is like saying I know there is a fire in the kitchen, but don'y worry it looks like rain. Its actually OK to post something negative about our team to see if others agree. What will it change? What will your Lazy Boy comments accomplish? They will accomplish about the same thing, little or nothing. So who cares if some of us get a little excited about a lack of boxing out, about getting out hustled, or even just saying "well that sucked?" It has nothing to do about faith, we all have it for our team, we just wish it would not be put to the test so often.

Benz Junque 7 years, 2 months ago

Just a reminder that we had a team loaded with seniors last year that lost in the tourney because they made several freshman caliber mistakes. Experience alone means nothing. You aren't immediately better or smarter if you are older. You aren't incapable iof being good because you are young. There are youing players throughout the sport that are excelling just fine.

This team, as with every other team, simply needs to perform. They need t come out and play hard and play smart. I have watched Tyshawn Taylor as a senior make the same stupid plays that I watched freshman Frank Mason make. I watched senior Sherron Collins dribble the ball off his leg in crunhc time before just like when freshman Mason lost control of the ball at the end of the game.

Age alone is not a skill or a hinderance. Freshmen have the skill to make a jumper. Freshmen have the brain power to understand that you cannot loft rainbow skip passes against a long fast team. More effort, more intensity, more focus on performing the job that has been assigned to you. More practice.

It would be just as foolish to declare that this team will run the table as it would to say this team will finish fifth in the conference (or wherever). Teams are different even game to game. And let's be honest, there are enoguh good teams in the conference that the winner of the league could have 5-6 losses in conference. there could be just a game or two difference between first and sixth this year.

Rodney Crain 7 years, 2 months ago

Apples and Oranges Junque - last years team had no PG to speak of and won over 30 games, won the B12, won the B12 tournament, and had MI down by 10 with 2 to go. The mistakes they made were few and mostly by one person. Last year they boxed out, they played with energy and only a few times did I even mention the words "well that sucks". How in the world can you compare them to this years team?

As I do with most of your posts, I wonder where you are coming from. A team typically is smarter and better as they age when in the presence of a great teacher. College is neat place where that happens a lot I think. So your age comments miss the mark. They are not getting better with more practice, so not sure this is going to help either, it should, just not sure it will. To say where a team will finish after they have played a third of a season is something everyone does, it is fun, what fans do. You did in your post, why is your comment not foolish as well?

I do like the word foolish in your comments but I would have used to describe something else...

It's ok to post a negative comment about your team when they play poorly. They do not care.

Suzi Marshall 7 years, 2 months ago

It sure is...and it was just as easy 30 years ago before remotes with the film reels. Review the tape and see for yourself the lack of assertiveness around the rim, positiong/boxing out for rebounds. Have a look yourself how many times our guys have both feet flat on the ground when the SDSU guys are hustling for the ball. We are more than a third into the season and some of these guys are making such gawd awful mistakes that I'm beginning to wonder if they even care.

Benz Junque 7 years, 2 months ago

Again, we said the same thing about last year's team but in mid February when they forgot how to play basketball for 10 days...

Rodney Crain 7 years, 2 months ago

10 days is not the same as the beginning of a season. This years team is in trouble, if you don't believe it, look at what the coach and the starting PG said. They think they are.

Matt Spitzli 7 years, 2 months ago

"KU suffered had a big turnover with just under a minute left." Cut "had."

Joseph Kuebel 7 years, 2 months ago

This is the most disappointing team I have ever seen for KU baaketball. I've been watching KU religiously for the past 12 years and did not even watch this game. Forget this 10 straight conference titles- I'll be happy and overjoyed to even make the NCAA tourney. What a group of weenies. No mental toughness. This is the sorriest Jayhawk team I've watched in my lifetime. I am ao far beyond disappointed that I refuse to even watch- not because I'm a bandwagon fan (in fact I'm the furthest thing from it... It's just not healthy for me to put myself thru this. I'm done we just aren't even close to as good as we thought this year. Kiss the conference champ streak goodbye... Please at least make the NCAA tourney. OSU will beat us twice, I'll be shocked to see this team go 13-5 in conference.

Benz Junque 7 years, 2 months ago

I'll bet you said the same after three straight conference losses, in cluding two bad ones to bad teams on the road, last year. Honestly, most of us did.

K-State beat Okie State. They aren't invincible.

Bottom line, losing sucks and we hate it. Shocker.

Mick Allen 7 years, 2 months ago

Joseph you are the whine and cheese fan Roy warned us about. You are the definition of a band wagon fan. As Benz pointed out, I'm sure you said similar things after we lost to TCU as one of our 3 straight losses last year with a senior line up."It's just not healthy for me to put myself thru this" Who the f--- cares what it is doing to your health,. You are the very definition of a "front runner fan', who supports the team only as long as it performs up to your unrealistic expectations. We are the 339th youngest team out of 341 division 1 teams. Giving up on a HCBS team the first week in January demonstrates how very little you understand the game and how important it is to be playing your best in March, which Self's team annually do. If your post is tongue in cheek please accept my apology. If not please find another team and program to haunt with your hypocrisy.

Benz Junque 7 years, 2 months ago

Wichita State is now accepting bandwagon locals if you're looking for a new team...

Rodney Crain 7 years, 2 months ago

Mick what gives you the right to say what you want and not Joseph?

It is ok to post negative comments about our team after poor play. Disagree, agree who cares, but to think we only want to hear what you say is, well it sounds like a front runner fan.

Kevin Huffman 7 years, 2 months ago

Eybea Opiner: Um, yeah, when all you do is go 0-1 from 3 and get yanked of course it's going to make your shooting look bad.

Having said that - they're not even getting ANY minutes at this point.

Just like Lucas looked HUNGRY for Rebs. when he went in his limited time, given how much SDSU'S defense was packign it in it would've been enjoyable to make them pay from 3 and AT LEAST give one of our outside shooters a spell of a couple of mins. & a CHANCE!!!!

Chris Shaw 7 years, 2 months ago

Greene played okay, but showed promise against Florida...I thought he started to take the corner against New Mexico. Since New Mexico....A total of 7 minutes and 1 DNP in 3 games . He has only two double digit minute games all year (Florida and New Mexico) and 4 total DNP's.

Hard to get any "Flow" or rhythm in that span.

Preston Dwiggins 7 years, 2 months ago

I agree on Greene. I think he could add a lot. All I can think of is possibly off court issues...

Asad Zoberi 7 years, 2 months ago

It’s hard to win if can’t make the defense pay for sagging.”

Coach Self, I have a ton of respect for you but I am puzzled by your rotation philosphy. KU did not make them pay for sagging because the guys who can hit the three were on the bench.

All along KU has been struggling to shoot the 3 pointers and all along you have denied the opportunity from two of your best perimeter players. What do you expect when the three point shooters continue to warm the bench.

Jim Stauffer 7 years, 2 months ago

Some great comments here. One guy has been watching KU ball for all of 12 years. Spare me your tremendous experience. The comments of the others can all be summed up in " I just don't have the time or patience for these young guys to develop." Fact is, yesterday was a game of men playing against boys. We can only hope our guys become men soon. Our best hope of that is if Bill Self would coach them. Oh, that's right, he is the coach. Once I realize that, I know the players will develop as quickly and completely as they would anywhere in the world and I put my worries aside.

Kevin Huffman 7 years, 2 months ago

Jim Stauffer:

You don't get "developed" when you don't play - i.e., Br. Greene.

Benz Junque 7 years, 2 months ago

Agreed. Everyone swore that Brady Quinn COULDN'T be any worse that Matt Cassel and that the coaches were MORONS for not making the switch. Guess what? He really did suck worse, which was truly difficult to achieve but Quinn managed to do it.

Everyone is ASSUMING that these guys on the bench are our best chances at making threes despite the fact that when they have gotten the chance they have mostly failed. No one was calling for Tharpe to be benched when he hit 4-5 threes. When was the last time Greene or White hit 4-5 threes?

I never question rotations or minutes because I am not at practice and I am not a coach and I do not have a feel for the flow of a game and how the players on the roster would do in the match up they would be in. Bill Self is so I will simply continue to expect that whoever is played shopuld do their job.

When Greene and White are called upon, they should be expected to do their job just like the starters should be. If a starter has a bad game it is foolish to simply assume that the bench guy would have done better. They are bench guys for a reason that is defined by a more than capable coaching staff.

Joe Ross 7 years, 2 months ago

Hmm, Kevin. Everyone agrees that McLemore developed during his season of ineligibility.

Alex Berger 7 years, 2 months ago

Players that didn't play their freshman year and turned out much better for it?

Thomas Robinson, Cole Aldrich, Sasha Kaun, Darnell Jackson, Travis Releford... I could go on but those are just the ones that popped into my head.

Steve Williams 7 years, 2 months ago

I think it might be time to start re evaluating our coaching staff. Perhaps self has peaked and it's time to move on

Benz Junque 7 years, 2 months ago

He's making fun of the Doom and Gloomers. It's called sarcasm.

Kristen Brown 7 years, 2 months ago

Eybea great point. I was about to make that argument. Yes we have 4 losses. By the way I would wager there are probably 300 or so other teams in Division 1 who would gladly trade places with us today if we allowed them to. Of those 4 losses two were on last second threes that if shot ten times probably are only made 2 - 3 times. The Florida lost should have been a blow out but this time showed toughness and battled back to make a game of it. Which brings us to this most current loss. The ball wouldn't go into the basket at all. San Diego State had a lot to do with that, but once again when they clock is winding down there we are with multiple chances to win. The hardest part for a young team to learn is to close out games. They will get there. These young men are extremely talented and humble and it will happen. But for us fans to call them "weenies" or say they aren't tough is ludicrous. These kids are busting their hump representing the University of Kansas. They have not had any off the court issues so far this season other than Brannen Greene's issue in the offseason. I saw one poster who made reference to the NIT and was baffled. When I was in elementary school we did a play called Chicken Little and sometimes when I read this message board I get flashbacks to Chicken Little running around yelling how the "Sky is falling!" It is almost like we have been spoiled by the 9 straight conference championships. Someone else made a comment regarding the Thomas Robinson/Tyshawn Taylor lead team being better than this one. Well I would like to present a case against that using the facts. That team had 3 losses after the non-conference schedule was concluded to our 4. With this schedule being much tougher. But it turned into a pretty amazing ride for that team. This team has a much higher ceiling and the number 1 RPI. Which makes me think a more accurate comparison is to the way Tom Izzo usually schedules at Michigan State. He usually has a top 5 RPI will struggle sometime in December and kind of fall of the radar as he is molding his team and then come March while everyone else is falling apart his Spartans are ascending and putting themselves in line to compete for both conference and national championships. And I would argue it's a pretty good formulate he has going over there with all this Final Fours. This team will be fine. Our "shooter" on the bench that everyone is pining for are no good to us if their turnovers and defensive liability give up more points than their 3 pointers will bring us.

Kevin Huffman 7 years, 2 months ago

Mostly a good post, BUT you don't hit on some things.

1) NOONE'S asking that Greene REPLACE Selden or antyhing of the like but SIMPLY GET MORE MINS. I COMPLETELY disagree with Self that SDSU's NOT the type of team to play him. In fact, maybe in a lot of games Greene doesn't see mins. but in yesterday's game he TOTALLY SHOULD HAVE!!!! He'd have been jacking up uncontested 3's and that's when he's at his best. Some of the poor %s came on challenged shots, but they were leaving our 3 pt. shot attempts wide open to focus on Def. Rebs. & doubling the post.

2) In terms of tough scheduling and number of losses, etc.

I.e., in the '11 / '12 season - I believe that 2 of their losses occurred in their first 5-6 games. IN MSU's tough schedules, they're usually struggling in Nov. / early Dec.

BUT those teams are usually hitting their stride a week into January.

This team started (5-0) was ranked No. 2 and now has gone (4-4) over their last 8 sliding out of the Top 20. I'd HARDLY say that they're improving, progressing or ascending!!!! If anything the more we go along the more leaks spring up and the more faulty the craftsmanship of the ship we sail is becoming apparent.

Steve Williams 7 years, 2 months ago

I think coach is losing this team, and we might not make the tourney, in which case.. He needs to go

Chris Shaw 7 years, 2 months ago

What do you think people would have been calling Bob Stoops had he lost another bowl game? Just food for thought.

Rich Hetherington 7 years, 2 months ago

I believe we are really starting to feel the absence of Danny Manning. Last year we had Withey and Young, who had both benefited from learning with Danny. Now we have Ellis, Embiid, Black and Lucas, none of which had the opportunity to spend any time with him. We do have Traylor, who was able to practice with him for half a season, and I think just that time shows in his game from time to time.

I don't want to knock Self or anyone else on the staff, but how much better would Embiid, Ellis, Black and Lucas be if they were able to play with Danny Manning still on the coaching staff? Not to mention Wiggins and AWIII, and additional time with Traylor would have helped those guys too. These players would be better at boxing out, getting rebounds, and making 2nd chance points, plus better at blocking and altering shots. I really miss the big guy... a true Kansas legend both as a player and a coach!

Benz Junque 7 years, 2 months ago

They aren't failing AT blocking out, they are simply not even remembering to attempt it. Everyone is trying to block the same shot and if the opponent manages to get the shot over the multiple blockers, there is no one even THERE to block out. That isn't a coaching problem.

Rodney Crain 7 years, 2 months ago

Well Benz, would it be ok if the coach just mentioned it? When you fail at something once or twice the player has forgotten, when you are doing it over games, it needs to be addressed. Do you think the players need to meet for coffee and discuss it? Or maybe cover it in practice?

Benz Junque 7 years, 2 months ago

You're probably right. I doubt that the coaching staff is still teaching blocking out now that Danny Manning has left. My bad...

Good grief.

Rodney Crain 7 years, 2 months ago

You are truly amazing, really a piece of work. Say one thing then say another.

Michael Bratisax 7 years, 2 months ago

Good points Rich. Offensive rebounds are about blocking out and position. Two things Manning excelled in and something this team lacks.

Kevin Huffman 7 years, 2 months ago

We're not the target.

We're 4th in the Big XII. Right now ISU's probably the target. They're undefeated AND (1-0) in conference play.

OSU & Baylor also with better records and ranked ahead of us. They too should be targets.

Tharpe with a bit of an ego saying that "we're a target".

Well, sorry to burst your bubble but whenever a team plays a team - the other team's "a target".

Rich Hetherington 7 years, 2 months ago

I disagree slightly, with 9 straight conference titles under our belt, you better believe that every team we play makes a bigger deal out of playing us than they do most (or even all other) teams. Now maybe the players aren't as scared of us as they usually would be, but a win against Kansas is marquee in ANY season and all these other schools want to end our streak, so trust me when I say Tharpe is correct about them getting everyone's best effort!

Benz Junque 7 years, 2 months ago

Get real. No one is storming the court if they beat Iowa State. This was a program changing win for SDSU.

Benz Junque 7 years, 2 months ago

People that pay attention to college basketball know that, but winning a game at Kansas puts them on a national scale where even casual fans will take them more seriously just looking at their resume come tourney time. Winning a game @ Iowa State (just for example) simply doesn't even though at this very moment in time it is probably more of an accomplishment.

And let's remember, Kansas sucked yesterday and couldn't make a shot from anywhere and still had a free throw shot to tie with 11+ seconds left against an excellent team. That alone leads me to believe that IF they are able to play to their abilities against good teams then they will be a very tough team to beat. KU almost beat a good team while SUCKING yetsterday. No team in the last 25 years has shot a ball that bad in a half.

Tony Bandle 7 years, 2 months ago

Down deep, did any of us really think that this season was going to be easy?

Talent aside, almost the youngest team in Division One with one of the toughest schedules.

All four losses to ranked teams by a total of 17 points!

I looked outside and the sky was not falling [lots of snow but no sky].

I choose to remain stalwart with my cup still half full....we still have another twenty or so more lessons to learn before March.


Suzi Marshall 7 years, 2 months ago

All four losses to ranked teams by a total of 17 points....with a combined record of 49-6!

I realize that and still believe the team will lose about 10 games and head into the NCAA as a 6 seed. If we get it together, we can without a doubt win it all. I'm now wondering if some of the guys just don't care because of all the flat footedness during critcal period of play.

I don't see any answer for our guard play.

Chris Shaw 7 years, 2 months ago

I said after the Florida game that I would like to see Greene in a point forward role like Evan Turner at Ohio State 3 years ago. That most likely will never happen (not until next year at least) heading into conference play, and it might fail miserably, but you don't know unless you try.

I would definitely like to see it just to see how Brannen Greene responds. It might fail, but it also might just surprise someone as well. Totally out of Self's character and monotonous routine, but I would still like to see it.

Anybody remember when Coach K switched everything up and made Jon Scheyer a point guard? Hmmm....I am thinking some type of rotation change is needed on this squad.

Benz Junque 7 years, 2 months ago

That would be good if Greene had shown any indication that he could handle the basketball. He isn't that guy. He should be drilling threes and playing lockdown defense at his heighth and relative quickness.

Get a PG to be a PG.

Benz Junque 7 years, 2 months ago

Jon Scheyer was a career 40.6% fg shooter. He was moved to point because he couldn't do anything else. Greene will be lighting it up from three at some point in his career.

Chris Shaw 7 years, 2 months ago

You didn't watch any Duke Basketball that year.

Chase Callahan 7 years, 2 months ago

Can't believe someone is actually posting comments about getting rid of Self. Sorry but that is just silly talk. Otherwise some pretty good comments on here. My opinion at this point is that, yes, this season was going to be tough for any dedicated KU fan (such as myself) because of the age/experience level of this team. However, I did hope/expect to see some improvement coming out of the holiday break. This team has not improved. They lack things which have nothing to do with age.......heart, toughness, intensity, and cohesion. Young or not shooting that low of a percentage is just embarrassing. It is one thing to put 110% on the floor and lose from lack of experience but from tip off the team acted like they just were not ready to play. I am thinking 4th place in the Big 12 (if lucky) and a not sure about the tourney. Hopefully they will make me eat those words.

Jim Congdon 7 years, 2 months ago

Just rewatched game in slo-mo and Suzi's early comment is on the money: Whoever Tharpe was guarding at the time was responsible, either by scoring or offensive rebounding, for nearly 25% of San Diego State's points. She called Tharpe the worst defensive guard for KU in memory, and may be right. He is always caught watching the game, rather than boxing out. And even though Self's main rule pre-game to him was "they want to go left and shoot mid-range," Tharpe always fell for the fake right.

Jim Congdon 7 years, 2 months ago

And this isn't even mentioning how Tharpe gave up two consecutive 3-point plays late, when we were on a roll and the crowd was screaming.

Suzi Marshall 7 years, 2 months ago

.... and the corner foul 3 ball resulting in 3 made FTs. Counting the non-box out resulting in offensive rebound tip-in dunks, we counted 22 points on Tharpe. I know he had a bad ankle and is the best running the O .... but 22 of 61 points or 36% .... but whose counting? In all fairness some of those, like 6 points worth others, like Selden or Mason, should have helped out.

Rich Hetherington 7 years, 2 months ago

Three notes from yesterday's game: 1- We were playing well and getting good looks early on in the game. It wasn't even the San Diego St. defense shutting us down, it was simply bad luck. We had drives to the rim that hung on the rim and didn't fall and other jump shots that did the same. 2- After being hit with bad luck shooting, and having a deficit build because of it, most of the players looked a little deflated and it showed in their shot selection, in their defensive intensity and in their aggressiveness at crashing the boards. The team was just too inexperienced to weather a poor (or unlucky) shooting start to the game and let it set the tone for the entire game. 3- I thought I liked Doug Gottlieb when he was on the 4 letter, but last night he seemed so anti-Kansas, it really agitated me! Every time a call could have went either way, he sided with SD St. He seemed animated and thrilled with each put back from SD St, but barely raised his voice for KU buckets. When we made a contested shot it was "ill-advised", whereas when SD St. did the same it was "AMAZING!". Did anyone else feel that way about his commentating? I thought he showed extreme bias and him being an Ok St. alum, I can understand why he's frustrated, but please don't let the angst spill onto the airway!

Chris Shaw 7 years, 2 months ago

I think that's you being insecure. Doug Gottlieb has always showed a lot of praise towards the Big 12 and Kansas.

Rich Hetherington 7 years, 2 months ago

Of coarse he likes the B12, he attended Oklahoma State. I haven't really noticed him being bias in the past, so I give him a pass THIS time, but he was clearly favoring SD St. yesterday, and to me it seemed obvious. He did everything short of saying on air "I really want Kansas to lose this game and for their conference title streak to end." Still it beats what Bobby Knight used to give, although for as bad and negative as he sometimes was, he did mix in a good deal of KU praise here and there. Come on Chris, "being insecure", I'm not sure how that would even apply here, I just didn't care for his commentating yesterday.

Robert Brown 7 years, 2 months ago

Why do people get so worked up about the announcers? There really wasn't a lot of positive things to say about KU's performance yesterday and it is a BIG deal when KU loses in Allen Fieldhouse.

Tommy Kueser 7 years, 2 months ago

I know that it is hard not to jump all over these young Jayhawks, but lets take a look back over the last 5 weeks. It has been a brutal schedule for 18 year old kids. This trial by fire is building character. Brininging them back to earth a bit. I see this paying dividends in March. Patience young grasshopper. Patience.

Robert Brown 7 years, 2 months ago

You make some good points, but I think way we are playing is what has people concerned. There does not appear to be any offensive fluidity and the defense just seems overwhelmed or disinterested. I don't know if the new foul rules has affected our aggressiveness or if it is just inexperienced.

There have been years where prospects looked bleak going into conference play and the team makes a step change. So far, that hasn't happened, but there is still time. There are some similarities to this team and the 2005-06 team.

Benz Junque 7 years, 2 months ago

That didn't look like a team that had a lot of character after a tough schedule to date. That looked like a team that had no idea what to do when facing a team with length and rebounders.

Ultimately I have no clue whether this will build character and help them or if it is a sign that they have some serious problems. Maybe a bit of both. I am concerned but not freaking out.

Bottom line is that conference season is HERE. To me this is the most important part of the year. The ncaa tourney is a crapshoot .The conference is a measure of just how good your team really is. a true home and home against every other team is the ultimate measuring stick of your abilities.

Teams and players that make dumb mental mistakes will ALWAYS be prone to a reoccurrence, regardless if they are freshmen, seniors, starters or reserves. They will usually play to their abilities sometimes that penchant for dumb mistakes will rear it's head. We all remember watching EJ and Taylor do the most unexplainably ignorant mistakes even in their senior year.

These guys just need to come out mroe aggressive and take the fight to the opposition instead of sitting back on their heels and trying to respond to the team that is taking the fight to them. They are letting themselves have play dictated by their opponent. We have a lot of great talent that needs to be ATTACKING the opposition in relentless waves, not looking around panicked trying to find help.

Ethan Berger 7 years, 2 months ago

One thing we need to remember is that our SOS has been one of the toughest in years for any teams at least out of conf. Seeing a lot of we finish 4th in our league but do you think Iowa State, OSU and K State would be where they are with our schedule. Before yesterday we had the number 1 RPI as a 3 loss team. It might take more time to gel and it might end our conf streak but do y'all really think it was going to last forever? I do wonder what happened with Greene and white. Sdsu was giving us shots outside the paint, we have to convert and those 2 would help. But its easy for me to look at a game and wonder. I don't have the luxury of watching practices. We have a lot to do but come on our 4 losses have been to good teams, all tea!s with good chances to win their conferences.

Doug Mowery 7 years, 2 months ago

I see a team playing with a lack of confidence in their game. They are scared to take shots, passing it off to the next guy. We don't have a go to guy or at least a guy confident enough in being the go to guy. Like to see Wiggins step up and take control of the game, he has the skill.

Nick Rushton 7 years, 2 months ago

The four teams we lost to are all really good teams with excellent head coaches and any of these teams could make a serious run in the big dance. Those teams are all obviously more experienced than KU and it goes back to HCBS' quote "men playing against boys".

Note KU HAS LOST THE OFFENSIVE REBOUNDING BATTLE IN ALL FOUR LOSSES by an aggregate of 60-44. At this level, and with that type of coaching, talent, athleticism on display, I believe the difference truly comes down to who wants it more. Nova, CU, UF, and SDSU all wanted it more hence the more offensive boards, loose balls, and W's!

RJ King 7 years, 2 months ago

For comparison's sake, the up-to-date Ken Pom rankings show:

(Since spouse is a "Cuse grad, I chose Orange over Arizona.)

Avg Non-Conference opponents:

Kansas = 69.38 Syracuse = 150.46

Avg Conference opponents:

Kansas = 62.77 Syracuse = 64.66

Total Season projects to:

Kansas = 65.66 Syracuse = 100.65

Our competition so far rated over twice as strong. League play about even. I agree that Kansas needs to show more heart and aggressiveness. Their true character will show itself in the next couple of months. This brutal non-con might toughen them up. Or the alternative - they will lack confidence and play scared. I hope these losses don't demoralize, but provide opportunities for growth. Rock Chalk!

Mike Barnhart 7 years, 2 months ago

Tough schedule but we've lost to the top four teams we've played

Mike Barnhart 7 years, 2 months ago

Tough schedule but we've lost to the top four teams we've played.

Jack Wilson 7 years, 2 months ago

Number 1 seeds have won 18 of the last 25 national titles.

This season, we just have to hope that the trend does not continue.

So many moving parts here.

One partial fix - simply find 15-17 minutes per game for Brannen Greene. Five from Wiggins, 6 from Selden, and a handful from Mason/Tharpe. That's all. No need for huge changes in the lineup. Let Selden develop. We just have two wings (Selden and Wiggins) that bring the same thing as their strength (slashing and driving).

Again, this is not a cure all. Just a partial fix.

And then just see if the dynamic of having a high level shooter in the game regularly changes the equation a bit. The key is "regularly."

On another point, we were just outcoached in a significant area yesterday. And note to the Self is God group -- this is not a slam. Every coach gets outcoached from time to time. Meaning, he's just a coach. A very good one; but not infallible. Fisher is a great coach, too. There are simply times when coach Self does not react correctly (and many times the analysis is in hindsight). But this is pretty easy.

Fisher had the strategy of doubling our post players and Self did not have an answer. What was our response? To dribble away from the double, to attempt cross court passes, and most importantly, to play passive rather than aggressive. Similar to our approach against the zone press. Playing not to make a mistake.

Let me ask you this: Did you see any perimeter players cutting to the basket when our post players were doubled? There was one time when Ellis hit Mason in the middle of the lane for a hoop off of a double. This wasn’t a cut, though. Mason was just there. The entire game there were no cutters to the basket. This is how you make them pay. They double, and your post player can shoot a pass to a cutter from the perimeter for an easy basket.

This is basketball 101.

Another thing that we did a few times was that we pivoted away from the double teams. What do you do if the offensive player pivots away? You close out and tight the trap. Did we ever try to split the double team?

But what we did, mainly, was play scared and non-aggressive. We routinely dribbled out of the double team, away from the hoop. Ellis and Embiid thus were rendered quite ineffective as they retreated. Ellis went 1-9. Embiid shot the ball a whopping 5 times. Embiid was provoked into a couple of turnovers throwing it across the court. I believe Ellis fumbled the ball away once on a trap.

What else would you expect off the double in the post? A pass to a shooter for a step in three. No dice there, either.

Fisher doubling the post was a main contributor to our poor two point shooting percentage. Not the only reason, but a main contributor.

Score that one to coach Fisher by a knockout.

Chris Shaw 7 years, 2 months ago

I agree. I wasn't suggesting that Greene replace Selden. I am suggesting exactly what you stated. Get Greene some minutes somewhere so he can simply be a threat and keep his man honest while he is on the floor.

Rodney Crain 7 years, 2 months ago

Great post, what is concerning to me is there is a lot of tape now on how to successfully defend us numerous ways and with a young team there will not be a lot of time to teach them how to overcome it. They also do not seem to react to what they learn quickly either.

Nick Rushton 7 years, 2 months ago

All four losses were to teams ranked in the Top-15 as of today. Still haven't decided whether to laugh or cry. Either way, that is some golden game-film to learn from.

Brad Dole 7 years, 2 months ago

It is hard to watch some of these games after being spoiled so many years. I think we will be fine in the long run. I do wish Wiggins would be more aggressive and drive the ball more and finish strong. Our guard play and decision making has to get better if we are going to be a contender in conference play. RCJH

Waylon Cook 7 years, 2 months ago

That was so ugly. Ugliest game I have watched in Self-era? I think so. Couldn't hit a shot. I love Self but something is off with him and this team. His rotation makes no sense. We lose to OU and I will seriously be counting down days to football season(ya its that bad)

Benz Junque 7 years, 2 months ago

You must have missed the TCU game last year... At least this was to a good team.

Suzi Marshall 7 years, 2 months ago

HEM, we looked for that in our after-action game review. SDSU packed it in tight and gave us the outside shot. For intance when they doubled the post on the block with OBrian and Davis, Spenser was left in the middle to cover cutters to the hoop. Shepard would cover the kick back to the wing while Thames would hang out on the far elbow. The right play in that case would be to make Shepard committ to the corner to cover the 3 ball while moving our Ellis (or Embiid) to the near elbow for a 14-15 foot jumper. If Spenser came up to shut down the short jumper, a drive or pass to a cutter from the weak side is then open. The problem with all this is Embiid woudl not take the short jumper....and we didn't put anyone on the court to knock down the corner 3 ball.

Look at Wiggin's and Selden's Js! Wiggins puts up a Phil Niekro knuckleball. There is a reason why the knuckleball is the toughest pitch to hit in baseball...nobody knows where it it so. Putting spin on an object to enhance control on a projectile is another reason we rifle the barrel of a weapon. Wiggins is firing a musket ball. How he developed that knuckle /musketball jumper with a father who played in the League and two brothers that plays is beyound me. As for Selden, he looks like he's tossing a medicine up there. The ball goes way back over his head before a final heave toward vacintiy of thehoop.

I don't want to get into the Self criticism game because he's earned a wide swath of respect, but I was surprised he did not give AWIII a good look vs Toledo and SDSU. You are dead nuts on we need either of those guys on the court 15-20 minutes taking about 7-10 shots. I'll take Frankamp at the 2....his D is no worse than Tharpe or Mason.

Alan Mills 7 years, 2 months ago

Suzi, I concur with reading your posts. What do you do, besides dissect KU basketball games quite astutely? I imagine you yell at the TV a lot during games, much as I do!

For several years now, one of my biggest worries has been not having real shooters. We used to, years ago. Heinrich was a dead-eye shooter. Long before, we had the likes of Ron Kellogg and Calvin Thompson, guys like that every year. Guys who could flat out shoot the ball, from the opening tip to the final buzzer. We had guys who could come in off the bench and hit shots right away...Booty Neal comes to mind right away. Jeff Gueldner was the best 3-point shooter in the nation one year. But, over the last 10 years, we just haven't had much, McLemore being the exception. We have great athletes, but not shooters. Andrew White was Mr. Basketball in Virginia, supposed to be a great shooter. I think he might have led the nation in airballs last year! His first (and I think only) shot yesterday barely hit the rim. Frankamp hasn't been able to hit in games. Selden, supposed to be a great shooter, is marginal at best. And, several have previously posted about his poor shooting form. Wiggins cannot shoot it consistently. Greene is average, compared to advertised coming in. In my humble opinion, this is the biggest weakness we have this year. We simply do not have any shooters. Every team, and I mean every team, seems to have multiple guys who can knock down shots. But, not KU. I would expect everyone to bury our posts each game. Would you give our guards any respect outside of 4 feet?

It would seem our success going forward will hinge on the ability to hit shots, and our ability to defend. I've written enough, so won't go on, but this could be one of the worst defensive teams we've seen under Self. When we need a stop, we don't get it. Often, just not smart defenders...if and when we do play decent defense we foul and let them off the hook.

Nick Rushton 7 years, 2 months ago

We still held SDSU to 37% shooting yesterday. That's pretty darn good defense against a good team. And their best player, Thames, was 31% from the floor. We actually got a lot of good defensive stops down the stretch. Just couldn't capitalize and hit shots like you said. It's funny that against Toledo, we couldn't play D but made a bunch of shots (60+% FG in 2nd half). Yesterday, couldn't hit shots, but played solid D (offensive boards were a serious problem of course). Obviously the markings of a very young team. I still believe they can grow up, but are going to have to do it extremely quickly if we're going to get #10....

Suzi Marshall 7 years, 2 months ago

Thanks Alan...I'm in the Oil & Gas business in Houston.

As for Kansas BBall, like many of the posters on here, I've been around the program for several yars. When I was at Kansas, one of the players and I used to sit on the curb outside Joe's Donuts talking Kansas BBall after studying till the wee hours. If you want to see intense people watching a KU BBall it with some former players. They take alot of pride in Kansas Basketball and.universally love Self. Some used to post on here under avatars Since the policy change nobody wants to come off as sounding critical of Self, the players or program. They pick up everything in real time.

Jack Wilson 7 years, 2 months ago

Suzi: That's a good point on Embiid not taking the J, or Ellis for that point. When they backed out of the double, Fisher had them abandon the trap. Hitting that 15 footer would change that strategy quickly I would think.

On the cutters, the protector you are referring to, of course, is vulnerable across his face. Making that pass is how you make them pay. It is awfully hard to guard a perimeter guy coming in at full speed when as the protector, you're static.

I called Hawk Talk tonight and asked coach Self directly about that. He said their strategy was when the post man dribbled back out of the double team, to send a cutter to the basket. He said they didn't do a very good job of that and pointed out that they only scored once on it (citing the Mason example I had referred to). Self cited an example when Black had a cutter but tried a cross court pass. But it sounded like they wanted to send a cutter, but failed to recognize it properly when the post man retreated from the double team.

He made the point of having to make them pay when they doubled, and that they didn't do a good job of that.

He mentioned that they knew ahead of time that Fisher would employ this strategy, but Self said at the end of his comment that he "didn't get them playing the way they should have against that (referring to the trap)." Self was quite candid and took responsibility for it.

And by the way, don't be afraid to critique Self and criticize if appropriate on the technical side. Sure, he gets a lot of rope and we know you respect Self .. most here do. But challenging the technical approach to the game isn't being unfair to coach Self. Heck, I bet he second guesses himself all the time.

Would love to see you challenge some of what coach Self is doing specifically with what you would have done in the same situation. It creates great discussion points and I certainly would be interested.

Jack Wilson 7 years, 2 months ago

Of course, Brett .. there is that off chance that Self would provide an explanation contrary to my opinion. I think it's an interesting coaching item, but your perspective is different.

If a post can't hold your attention, don't read it .. but for your benefit, I may try to post more pictures, if that would help. Just let me know.

Benz Junque 7 years, 2 months ago

Now that a day has passsed to calm down, does anyone realize that KU shot their worst FG% game in about 25 years and still had a free throw to tie with 12 seconds left against an elite, ranked team? Imagine when their shots start falling, because they aren't going to shoot 30% for the rest of the season.

Allen Dimick 7 years, 2 months ago

Great game, best of luck the rest of the year.

Go Aztecs!

DaNeille Dani Davis 7 years, 2 months ago

I hate to say this but I don't like this team. Mainly the freshmen. I don't think they care about the name on the front of their Jersey...only the name on back. Wiggins has been a huge disappointment. He's not playing like he's capable of doing.

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