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Oklahoma State defeats Kansas, 85-77

  • 3 p.m., Feb. 27, 2010
  • Gallagher-Iba Arena, Stillwater, OK

Sunday, February 28, 2010

Cowboys end Jayhawks’ run

Kansas guard Sherron Collins leaves the floor with teammates as Oklahoma State fans rush the court following the Jayhawks' 85-77 loss, Saturday, Feb. 27, 2010 at Gallagher-Iba Arena in Stillwater.

Kansas guard Sherron Collins leaves the floor with teammates as Oklahoma State fans rush the court following the Jayhawks' 85-77 loss, Saturday, Feb. 27, 2010 at Gallagher-Iba Arena in Stillwater.

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KU perfect no longer

The Kansas men's basketball team fell to 13-1 in Big 12 Conference play, losing to Oklahoma State, 85-77.

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KU-Oklahoma State basketball

Reader poll

Which was more responsible for Oklahoma State's offensive performance against KU on Saturday?

  • Hot shooting 60% 1563 votes
  • Poor defense 36% 948 votes
  • Undecided 2% 62 votes

2573 total votes.

Reader poll

Does it matter to you if Kansas beats North Carolina to 2,000 wins?

  • Yes 62% 180 votes
  • No 37% 107 votes

287 total votes.

— Nick Collison, who played on the only basketball team to go undefeated in Big 12 Conference history, sat with his wife, Robbie, behind Kansas University’s bench, hoping to see the 2009-10 Jayhawks continue storming toward that rare achievement Saturday afternoon in Gallagher-Iba Arena.

Instead, he witnessed the best shooting effort against a KU team in 20 years doom the Jayhawks to an 85-77 defeat to Oklahoma State, KU’s first loss in 14 league contests.

“I’ve played in this game before ... the home team comes out and seems like it hits every shot,” Collison said after the James Anderson-led ’Pokes drilled 61.3 percent of their first-half shots in building a 16-point halftime lead and finishing at 60.4 percent, best mark by a KU foe since Oklahoma went for 62.7 percent on March 10, 1990.

If it’s any consolation, Oklahoma City Thunder power forward Collison can hardly believe any team — including his 16-0 2001-02 squad — could win ’em all.

“We were the only team to do it, right? It’s not impossible, but it’s tough to do,” Collison said. “I don’t know how we did it. This league is so good, with all the difficult places to play on the road, especially.”

Collison had something in common with the 2009-10 Jayhawks.

He wanted KU to reach perfection.

“I want us to win every game for sure,” he said. “My career is over with. I want us to win them all.”

According to KU senior Sherron Collins, KU’s first loss in league play with two games remaining was preventable. Sure, OSU hit 32 of 53 shots and 10 of 19 threes (Anderson was 9-for-19 from the floor and 4-for-6 from three for 27 points), but that’s partly because of KU’s effort on defense, he said.

“I didn’t have the team ready. I’m the captain. I’m the senior. I should have had us ready to play. It’s my full responsibility when the team goes down,” Collins said.

He had seven points off 2-of-8 shooting the first half, then erupted for 15 the second half in helping KU slice a game-high deficit of 19 points (57-38 with 13 minutes to play) down to six (80-74) with just over a minute remaining.

“We weren’t in the right mind-set,” Collins said. “They outrebounded us (36-26 despite playing nobody taller than 6-8). They were tougher than us tonight. We prepared for their sets all week. We just didn’t come out and execute.”

KU coach Bill Self, who used Cole Aldrich just eight minutes the second half on a day he grabbed just five rebounds to go with 11 points, had various messages for his troops after he fell to 1-3 overall as KU coach in games at his alma mater.

“He didn’t say too much. He said we deserved to lose. We got what we deserved,” Collins said.

Also, “he talked to us (about) the last time we lost in this building we went on to win the national championship,” said freshman Xavier Henry, who scored 17 points, 14 the second half.

Self tipped his cap to the Cowboys:“I mean it honestly, I don’t see a lot of teams beating them if Page (Keiton, 15 points, 4-for-4 from three), Muonelo (17 points, four boards) and Anderson are that good. I don’t. They’ve got something going that will give anybody problems.”

That, he said, is the 6-foot-5 Muonelo being a matchup problem for teams as a quick 4-man.

Of course, Self also bemoaned the play of his own team.

“It was a very, very pitiful performance by us,” Self said. “It doesn’t matter that we outscored them the second half (48-40) because we never challenged them. I was happy our guys competed, and we got it down to six. It was not a true reflection on us controlling the half by any means. When you get outrebounded by 10 and the opponent only misses 21 shots, that’s a formula for disaster on the road.”

He went on....

“We couldn’t make a basket when they got a lead. Those are times you have to guard. Our toughness level was poor,” he said. “That can happen in the (NCAA) Tournament in a one-and-done deal. Hopefully we can learn and understand. We weren’t ready to defend today.”

Still, he refused to dwell only on negatives.

“The last time we came down here and left here sad, it turned out OK,” he said of KU losing by one point two years ago in Stillwater, then going on to win the NCAA title. “I am believing we can get something out of it. I don’t think the thing is broken. I do think we need to evaluate our things. We need to take great pride in the things that help us win, especially this time of year.”

He said the biggest thing is for there to be no hangover heading into Wednesday’s 7 p.m. game against Kansas State.

“We need to get back to being a tough, hard-nosed basketball team, which we weren’t today,” Self said. “I hope the guys don’t feel like it’s the end of the earth, which they shouldn’t. I hope they are pretty disgusted and pretty mad about what transpired today. If that’s the case, I think we’ve got enough fight in us we’ll fight back.”

As far as that undefeated thing ...

“It hurts. It also helps us realize we are not unbeatable,” Henry said after KU fell to 27-2 overall and 13-1 in league play. OSU is 20-8, 8-6.

“It’s all right. That doesn’t really hurt us. Of course, it would have been nice to go 16-0,” Collins said.

“Sixteen-and-0 sounds better than 13-1,” soph Tyshawn Taylor said. “But we’ll move on. I guarantee you we’ll work hard at practice and try to learn from this. We have to be ready because K-State is coming in, and K-State is good.”

Comments

Kye Clark 4 years, 6 months ago

A disappointing loss and a pretty pathetic effort all around. The saying "winning covers a multitude of sins" could not have been better illustrated than it was today. We play horrible perimeter defense. I seem to recall during one of the Big Monday telecasts or maybe it was the Colorado game where it was pointed out that we were last in the Big 12 in 3-point % defense. It's lousy, and it doesn't matter if its Sherron, TT, X, Tyrel, or Brady. Early in the conference season there was a comment made in an article by Keegan where he posed the rhetorical question "is there any type of player Morningstar can't guard?" And was praising him for being such a lock down defender. Right now he's just as ineffective as everyone else out there.

Collins played horribly to start the game as OSU was running away from us. Shooting 0-6 to start the game, missing the front end of two separate one-and-ones. Turning the ball over frequently. He showed fight late and got hot, and hopefully that's something to take away from this game was Sherron maybe busting out of a shooting slump. Maybe. All year long fans, coaches, teammates, and the media have lauded Cole Aldrich for being such a defensive force, an eraser, intimidatingly guarding the paint. Today he was a non-factor, against a significantly smaller team. Brady & Tyrel were complete liabilities on the floor, adding nothing to the offense on a day where no one was an asset on defense. They both looked too timid to attempt shots all game. The Twins were average at best on offense, and weren't nearly physical enough going after rebounds. Tyshawn hit a couple of big 3s, but was a too ineffective in his attempts to drive to the hoop, particularly late. X disappeared for a long stretch after hitting an early 3, but I was impressed with his willingness to shoulder some of the offensive load when we were attempting to mount a comeback, showing composure after Anderson blocked his jumpshot to collect the ball, get closer to the basket, and score.

Something that I'm not buying is this "6-foot-5 Muonelo being a matchup problem for teams as a quick 4-man." Isn't that supposed to be Marcus Morris? Isn't he supposed to be the athletic 4 that presents match-up problems for the other team?

Now, 27-2 and 13-1 in the conference is still great. No need to tear the whole thing down and start over from scratch. And IF we had to lose one of these next few games I'm glad it wasn't K-State or Misery (although we'd better step our game up or we'll lose to them too). I just hope this game serves as a wake-up call, much like it did the '08 team, that if this team wants a shot at cutting down some nets, they cannot just show up. They cannot win on talent alone. This cannot be a team that goes through the motions and expects to win. Hit it hard in practice fellas, and go out there and take it to the kitties on Wednesday. Senior Night for Sherron. Rock Chalk Jayhawk!

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Kye Clark 4 years, 6 months ago

P.S. I can't believe that before the game I was reading comments saying that a loss wouldn't be so bad, wanting OSU to be a lock for the tournament and making the Big 12 look better. I felt awful watching the game today. How did you people feel?

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skwahjayog 4 years, 6 months ago

icthawkfan, my son and I watched the game together, and we could just tell it wasn't our day. I told him before the game that, if we were going to lose, the OSU game was a good time to do it. We both were proud that the 'Hawks showed some fight and didn't fold. While I never enjoy watching KU get beat, I really didn't feel too bad about this one. It might just be what we needed. RCJH!

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jayhawker_97 4 years, 6 months ago

the game showed OSU's superior offense, defense & rebounds squad - they DESERVE all the credits! KU was simply outplayed by the Cowboys. they are more athletic, quicker, heck of shooters. KU's 1-on-1 (or even full-press) defense style simply couldn't stop them, they're much much more athletic than the Hawks. OSU reminded me of teams like Baylor, KSU...always gave KU trouble, only this time those shootings weren't falling for KU.. it's time to get 'em boys some conditioning & shooting drills again. let's hope the team come fully prepared & fired up vs el gato next week! rock chalk!!

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Edward Daub 4 years, 6 months ago

Here is the bottom line. Bill Self has lost three straight times to OSU in Stillwater! Of course, Players play and Coaches coach.

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yates33333 4 years, 6 months ago

Not mentioned, but obvious, Morningstar isn't playing like Morningstar played when he was starting. Also, Taylor had his worst game since being returned to the starting role. Are they hurt or tired?

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jayhawk1954 4 years, 6 months ago

KU was not ready to play and OSU needed the win for March Madness security. Let's learn from this game and get ready for KSU.

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86finalfour 4 years, 6 months ago

In answering a question about how this team compares to '08, Bill Self on hawk talk show last week said this team is not as athletic, and that team was much better defensively, at least on the perimeter. But he also said this team has more offensive weapons - that it's more balanced. That as opposed to 2008, all five guys on the floor are scoring threats. This team has been beat by athleticism and toughness this year (tenn and now OSU), which is something that didn't happen in 2008. Just compare the stillwater scores -- 60-61 in 2008 and last night's 77-85. I know, there was Mario's miracle, but before that shot, they had only made one three pointer the whole championship game. And overtime was a dunk fest (i'm not complaining!). But that team made a lot of offense out of their defensive pressure (ie steals) that resulted in alley-oop dunks.

To be honest, I didn't think KU could win in 2008 because the team could get really cold (ie 2007 tourney exit vs UCLA when they couldn't hit a layup). And Bill Self did his magic so this team is in good hands. He's a defensive and toughness master.

On another note, is Collins hurt? He has looked slower than usual -- like he's behind a half a step -- for the past 2 weeks. Anyone else get this feeling? I hope this isn't Ressing redux*

*regarding injury only

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Steve Brown 4 years, 6 months ago

“I didn’t have the team ready. I’m the captain. I’m the senior. I should have had us ready to play. It’s my full responsibility when the team goes down,” Collins said.

  1. role model starts with your own play, lead with the driveanddish not the prayer shot.

Anderson-led ’Pokes drilled 61.3 percent of their first-half shots in building a 16-point halftime lead and finishing at 60.4 percent,

  1. fun to play on winning team with a 10 point lead, the real winners are those that can play with poise, patience and composure when facing adversity. apparantly we have none.

Morningstar isn't playing like Morningstar played when he was starting

  1. since his FT boo boo, not sure if that was the sympton or cause of something in his head, let's get Brady rewired we want/need the old Moningstar.

“We couldn’t make a basket when they got a lead. Those are times you have to guard. Our toughness level was poor,” he said. understand.

  1. true yet also time to make a friggin bucket. Guard yes, yet also be patient find the right shot with chance for three or and one...

out/ late.

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docileboy 4 years, 6 months ago

Balanced offensive weapons? KU scored 29 points in the first half against an undersized OSU. I think he hit the nail on the head when he talked about toughness, something this team lacks.

To go along with the three straight losses at OSU, throw in the home loss to Oral Roberts, a couple of years ago.

If you think its a tough loss in Kansas, try living in Oklahoma. We will hear about this for a while.

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Dyrk Dugan 4 years, 6 months ago

"Here is the bottom line. Bill Self has lost three straight times to OSU in Stillwater!" westvirginia,

the bottom line is: you're wrong. in '06, we beat them by 15 in Stillwater.

as usual when KU loses....as infrequently as its been the last few years....people panic so much, we can't even get basic things right.

was our perimeter defense bad yesterday? Yes, but did you actually see some of those shots? they made some threes when they turned their bodies in mid air toward the goal.

they had three people, miss one shot out of 18. (that's 94% for you factoids.) That simply doesn't happen. people have great days and miss two or three shots at least.

more worrisome is the rebounds, but when you're not missing shots does it really matter? difference in the game was TOs...and scoring after. they did it...we didn't...to the tune of a 12 point difference. (margin was 8....the math is pretty easy there.)

With a Bill Self coached team...it comes down to three things...and our guys know this: defense, rebounding and ball handling. if we do it better than the other team, we'll win...GUARANTEED. if we lose all three, the chances are good we'll lose.....and yesterday it took 60% shooting, PLUS all three to do us in.

it's one loss folks...it will be allright. we have the grapes coming into town on Wednesday, and the local paper in KC is already providing bulletin board material for our Jayhawks....basically stating flat out that Martin is a better coach, and the kitties are a tougher team.

Sherron Collins did not come back to lose on Sr. night. i will just leave it at that.

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Tony Bandle 4 years, 6 months ago

The article in the Kansas City Star had a spelling error regarding Martin...the word was supposed to be c-l-o-w-n not coach. We apologize for this misprint to Frank and all his fans.

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GreyHawker 4 years, 6 months ago

Good one oakville...but I gotta tell ya, Martin has them boyz coached up and playing very well....Bill...well he's a good recruiter!!!! We lost our good bench coach when Tim went to ILL St.......

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Benjamin Piehler 4 years, 6 months ago

we got destroyed by picks inside for anderson to weave back outside for the open shot. worked almost every time.

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tis4tim 4 years, 6 months ago

60% shooting by OSU for the game is unthinkable and I doubt anyone saw that coming. Could our defense have been better? Yes, but Self seems to play percentages with the three ball and today it burned him. Plus, how do you guard an off balance, falling backwards shot from the corner? When Andersen (I think it was him) hoisted that up and it swished pure, I just knew this wasn't our day.

And to refute Self's comments just a bit...we did mount one challenge in the first half. We were down 13 or so, and we had scrapped to cut it to five. The crowd was fading, OSU was a bit on their heels and then the refs stopped play for almost 5 minutes or more to review Morris' three point shot. End momentum. I know the refs were bad, (aren't they always in a loss?) Still, why the endless discussion and hobnobbing between the refs after watching the monitor? We all knew how that call would turn out. Make it, and lets keep playing.

I don't know the rules for overturning or upholding calls in the NCAA, but the NFL uses "irrefutable evidence" as a basis. The call was that it was a three and I saw no angle that could definitively overturn that. Of course, we end up losing a point, losing our momentum thanks to an unplanned and very long time-out, and in a flash, OSU hits two threes in a row and the lead is 13 again. While it's hard to pin this loss on one sequence, that was a major turning point in my eyes.

I'm interested to see the rankings this week. Because UK and KU both lost, do the pollsters vault a 3-loss Purdue team (now without Hummel) over two 2-loss teams? Does Syracuse jump from 4 to 1? If not, does KU stay number one because they lost by fewer points or does UK take the top spot because UT was ranked 19? I don't put much stock in polls, but it will be interesting to see how this will be scored.

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Nick Cole 4 years, 6 months ago

I understand that we are 27-2, 13-1 in Big XII play. I understand that the Big XII has the No. 1 conference RPI ranking. I also understand that KU has been ranked No. 1 in both polls all but three weeks this season. So, my question is this: How do you let a team shoot 60% against you? HOW? My grandmother in a wheel chair could have played better defense than that. And it wasn't just perimeter defense yesterday. It was in the paint too. I say guys 3+ inches shorter than Cole just go right into him and take it to the rack. Embarrassing, to say the least.

Yesterday wasn't our day, it belonged to the Pokes. But we gave it to them. They didn't earn it. I really hope this humbles our team and gets them refocused. What disturbs me is that they seem to think this was a one game thing. Has anyone not been paying attention? We have played like doo-doo for a while. Sure we put together a couple good halves. Getting outscored by OU in our own building in the 2nd half, having to go into overtime at Colorado, letting Nebraska and ISU hang with us at home. This isn't a new thing, the only difference is that we won those games and lost this one. I hope they realize this and get their act together. We are Kansas and everyone wants to knock us down. These next two games are going to define this team and season, in my opinion.

Rock Chalk!

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DalTXJayhawk 4 years, 6 months ago

tis4 -- I felt the same thing, just as we were gaining momentum and started a good run, a 5 minute time out over 1 stinkin point. Instead of continuing our run, they hit a shot, got the crowd back and we never really challenged from there. (short of a mini run towards the end, but never really got close enough) I agree with the NFL approach regarding irrefutable evidence. Give them 30 seconds, if you can't see anything to overturn the call on the court, let it stand.

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sparky1958 4 years, 6 months ago

Take it easy hawkers. Jesus you guys are gripping. I wonder if the team's mindset is like you all are? If the team is as screwed up as this thread is you'll be co-Big 12 champions this year and nothing more. Soon to be a second round departure from the dance.

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wiltstilt 4 years, 6 months ago

-tim, you hit it on the head... OSU hit a high percentage of low-percentage shots. That was the major difference. That seems to be their style and it certainly can get you a big win from time to time... but ask Duke how often it translates into 6 straight tourney wins. We have to be prepared for that style because most teams use that "underdog" strategy against us. Kill the shot clock, hoist as many 3s as you can and pack in the D to bait us into doing the same. Then hope you're hot and the favorite isn't. Most of our losses over the last 4-5 years have followed that formula well.

Also, I agree on the review of Marcus's first half 3-pointer. I'd love to see the camera angle they used to definitively overrule that, because we didn't see it at home (Gallagher-Iba has the worst camera set-up in the league). The bigger issue was absolutely the momentum-killing "time-out" that seemed to re-spark them... but, that's life on the road I guess.

Which brings me to my next topic. Is it just me, or does the Big 12 officiating seem to be consistently skewed in favor of the home team? Any 50-50 call almost certainly will end up going to the home team... seemingly to appease the crowd. Of course this applies to our home games as well. The problem is, we don't need help to win... especially at home. So the skewed officiating only has the potential to hurt us. I suppose the good news is that tourney games are all at neutral sites. It's just disturbing to watch these games (even our home games) and leave with the impression that the refs are aiming to make the game more about themselves than the teams and players on the court.

I hope we see OSU again in KC... and Tennessee again in the big dance.

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HvacHawk 4 years, 6 months ago

The sky isn't falling. We just had an off game. It happens. OSU just happened to hit an incredibly hot streak in the first half and we were just down to average at every position in the second half. At least we fought to keep the score somewhat respectable. This was their big hurrah of the season. We still have a National Title to hang in the rafters. If this was reversed and in Lawrence, would the Jayhawk fans be storming the floor after beating the pokes? Hell no, 'cause it would be another day in the office. We had a bad game, they had a great game. Hopefully this revs our motor up and lays a huge round of 'wake up and smell the coffee' in our boys' faces. RCJHGKU!!!!

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Kye Clark 4 years, 6 months ago

hey sparky...how'd that first game turn out between the hawks and the kitties? Oh that's right, losing in your own house. Hey that's nothing new. We wipe your own floor with you every year (well, we throw you a bone once every 26 years or so). Speaking of losing on your home court...that same OSU team beat you guys at home this year. As for the contests between the two school...rivalry? 178-90. That's our record against your. Gotta post better than a 33.6% winning percentage to claim you're part of a rivalry, or to come onto our board in a year we've already beaten you and still hold a 2 game lead over you.

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galwaygal 4 years, 6 months ago

I was one of the 11% who voted that OSU would be the toughest remaining opponent in LJW's poll last week. Somehow the 'pokes always seem to surprise us when we play in Stillwater. Maybe it's just a coincidence that they find a way to beat us just when the finish line for an undefeated season is in sight. Road games are tough and the crowd there always seems to be louder when Bill Self shows up with the Jayhawks. Didn't you kind of see a game like this coming after the OT's in Boulder and Manhattan? I was worried about this game, in case it was viewed as an easy win and especially because of Anderson's play this season. Oh well, it's just a speed bump on the road to the Championship if the team is able to use this loss to bear down and focus for the rest of their games. Beak 'Em Hawks!

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kubirdfan75 4 years, 6 months ago

Calm down Jayhawk fans i am just as down as you. But all the purple Spankster was saying is that this lost isn't everything, if anything this will just add full to the fire against KState so take it easy on the Purple wild kittens

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Benjamin Jones 4 years, 6 months ago

"they had three people, miss one shot out of 18. (that's 94% for you factoids.) That simply doesn't happen."

mvjayhawk, are you forgetting April 4, 1988? We had four players (Pritchard, Newton, Normore and Harris) miss one shot out of 17.

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KULA 4 years, 6 months ago

Syracuse is easily the best team in the nation. They looked SO much better than we have in most of our games. They pass SO much better than we do. While we're passing it around the perimeter, they're penetrating and dishing. Everyone on their team has the confidence to raise a shot. Brady gets and open shot at the BOTTOM of the key and he's afraid to shoot it. Jeez! I hope we don't have to play them.

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kubirdfan75 4 years, 6 months ago

Are you a Kansas fan KULA or Syracuse fan, really you take a team like the orange who plays in a week conference with a week RPI and compare them to Kansas who had a bad game against a team who was ranked at one time this season on their court and you say you don't wont to play them really WOW I see where your lye did you Blow in with the last storm with all the other fair weather fans come on we lost two games against good teams who did Syracuse lose to yeah that's what I thought.................

 ROCK CHALK BABY LETS WIN ONE ON WED. FOR THOSE WHO DOUBT YOU!!!!!!!!
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86finalfour 4 years, 6 months ago

KUbird, I agree with most of your points but Big East is not a weak conf -- it's either 2nd or the best conference - period. What are you smoking?

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Kye Clark 4 years, 6 months ago

KULA - of course it's easy to say that after yesterday. But they've lost two games same as us...at home! To unranked Pittsburg and unranked Louisville. Our best win was at K-State # 5 in the RPI. Their best win was at West Virginia #6 RPI. Their worst loss, at home to Louisville #41 RPI (again, AT HOME!) Our worst loss was yesterday, but on the road at OSU who is #25 in the RPI. SO...why are they easily the best team? It's not like they've reeled off 10 in a row either. That Louisville loss was 2 weeks ago, 4 games ago. SO take it easy with the slurping on Syracuse on dogging on the hawks. Yeah, we had a bad game yesterday. It happens. But to make sweeping generalizations and judgements off of one day of the year...well that's SO foolish.

kubirdfan - you did not make a very good counter-arguement. Week conference? (I'm sure you meant WEAK conference). The Big East is the #2 RPI conference, and most experts think its the best. Syracuse themself is ranked #3 in the RPI (behind us at #1 and Duke at #2) and has a strength of schedule ranked # 9, while ours is #19. Just saying, Syracuse is good. Also, I don't think OSU was never ranked. I'm sure you probably are thinking of Oklahoma, or Texas Tech. Both of those teams were ranked long ago either to start the year or towards the beginning, but now are in the bottom half of the conference.

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HvacHawk 4 years, 6 months ago

C'mon guys...let's stop calling out fellow Hawk fans with the 'ol 'are you a "true" fan' b.s. This is time that we should band together around our guys and appreciate the incredible job that they have done this season. We have the right to point out shortcomings of our team and admire other teams strong points as well. We won several games this season that we had no business winning. Before this season started, I was fully expecting about 4 to 5 losses at this point with us sniffing at the heels of Texas for the Big XII title. Quite a better position to be in if you ask me! The guys did an admirable job of trying to come back in this last game. Just wasn't in the cards. We shouldn't berate our fellow Hawk fans on the board for stating their opinions. Not calling anyone out in particular...just seems to have an overall feel like that in this thread.

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86finalfour 4 years, 6 months ago

wiltstilt,

" Big 12 officiating seem to be consistently skewed in favor of the home team? "

Refs officiate all other conferences. I used to think that there were only big 12 officials but no. They work all over the country in all of the conferences.

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okiedave 4 years, 6 months ago

Did not record the game. Has anybody put a stop watch on the 5 second calls?

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KU 4 years, 6 months ago

KULA.....I've been saying for weeks SU is probably the best team in the nation. The thing to take away from this fact and yesterday's KU loss: even the best teams lose games in this crazy sport called basketball.

Still, it took a once-in-a-lifetime shooting effort for OSU to win by 8. If we play them in the Big 12 tourney, we probably win by double digits. You just can't foresee a team shooting 52% from 3 and 60% from the field very often. Yes, we could have played with more energy and purpose, but KU's defense yesterday was better than 90% of teams' AVERAGE defense and OSU hasn't shot that well against any other team. It was the perfect storm for OSU yesterday. Congrats to them.

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jaybate 4 years, 6 months ago

Every win covers a multitude of sins.

Every loss covers a multitude of virtues.

Those that dwell in the win, or the loss, never get better.

Teams have to get better after wins and losses.

Stasis is inevitable failure.

Retain anything that helps you get to next and be better.

Shed anything that slows you getting to next and getting better.

What are the multitude of virtues this loss covered?

Virtue 1. Sherron, after a horrible first half,and part of the second (6TOs for the day) finally appeared to break out of his 8 game slump down the second half stretch, exploding for 22. I cannot believe no one is noticing this!

Virtue 2. Xavier proved he could at least stay with a great player defensively; that is a huge new virtue. Anderson was 9-19, not a great day for him. Take away a couple of his ridiculously lucky treys and Anderson would have been at or below his average.

Virtue 3. Xavier proved that he could not only defend a great player credibly, but he proved that he could get some points while doing it; that is a huge new virtue.

Virtue 4: The Twins did not play like gang busters, but they also did not disappear. They got 16 points and 9 rebounds jointly; that is usually good enough for KU to play close or win. Their composite 4 had an adequate day even on a down day. Huge virtue.

Virtue 5: KU's Disruption Statistic (Steals/TOs) went greater than one--an incredible accomplishment on any day. This is a huge improvement. On a day when Cole shows up and KU gets its normal allotment of rebounds, then this disruption statistic alone would have overcome almost any other sins KU committed against OSU.

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jaybate 4 years, 6 months ago

Virtue 6: Tyshawn, after doing the disappear-o for 3/4s of the game, fought through the adversity and finished with a solid line score and did some fine things to bring us back into the game. Why is this a virtue? It is the first time this season that Tyshawn has show any ability whatsoever to bounce back from adversity "during" a game. It means he's tougher than he has been.

I could go on with the seeing the glass half full exercise.

The point is all losses cover a multitude of virtues.

Mental tougheness to say next and mean it and get better, not looking in a mirror and saying we've been a bunch of pretenders is what every team, especially every one struggling through adversity to become a champion, must do.

Only those out of harms way can afford to indulge in playing god at this point and saying a team is not good enough to get better and win a ring. Only those out of harms way can afford to indulge in playing god at this point and saying this moment, or that moment, is a turning point that either reveals a team to be a great team, or a pretender. Why? Because teams are evolving things. Only a part of a team's success or failure is inherent in intial conditions, or in any moment along the way to the goal of total victory. There are always more crucial moments to follow. More points where things can and will go wrong. More moments where all could be loss.

Being master not only of as many moments as possible, but of as many of the moves to the next moment, are the marks of champions.

So far this season, this 27-2 KU team has shown itself to be very masterful.

There remains reason for great optimism, despite the inevitable peril to come many more times.

Rock Chalk!

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michaelaho 4 years, 6 months ago

Why is Sherron gaining weight over this season. He's at least 10 lbs heavier than at the beginning. And it's definitely showing in his quickness...

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Edward Daub 4 years, 6 months ago

mv jayhawk

I stand corrected. KU has lost 3 out of 4 in Stillwater during the Self era.

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Joe Baker 4 years, 6 months ago

OSU played their best game all year. It was a freak game that has little to no solid understanding. Why can't a team play like this all year? Why can't KU play up to their potential every single game? Why does Ollie hit an incredible shot percentage? Why does Anderson, Muonelo and Ollie decide to play this game?

’Pokes drilled 61.3 percent of their first-half shots and finishing at 60.4 percent...'

“I mean it honestly, I don’t see a lot of teams beating them if Page (Keiton, 15 points, 4-for-4 from three), Muonelo (17 points, four boards) and Anderson are that good. I don’t. They’ve got something going that will give anybody problems.” -Self

We honestly cut the deficit fairly well, but we just didn't do it soon enough.

It's over! Let's grow, learn and win!! We are running out of opps to play this kind of game. Very little to no margin for error! Now let's see if they can overcome and adjust. Let's see if OSU will continue to play this extraordinarily! We beat ksu, we clinch the B12, right?

Rock Chalk Beat ksu!

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KU 4 years, 6 months ago

truehawk.......So glad to see you have turned positive on this loss. I was worried you were going to jump off a tall building yesterday.

Next!

Rock Chalk

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BCRavenJHawkfan 4 years, 6 months ago

I understand the defensive performance could have been better and offensively KU was below it's averages, but check this little gem:

OSU 3 point percentage as a team up until yesterday - 35%. OSU 3 point percentage yesterday - 52%.

K. Page 3 point percentage up until yesterday - 38%. K Page 3 point percentage yesterday - 100%.

Those are numbers that are so ridiculous I even wonder if OSU could replicate them in a free shoot around session.

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SCHNBALL 4 years, 6 months ago

Jbate- No one answered my question yesterday, did we go zone at any point in the last 16 minutes, I did not get to see the game from that point on?

To follow up on Collins, as i have watched him over the last 2 years, he is not the guy who will get this team into an offense when we get down. If anyone has watched this team over the last 2 weeks, we are by far at our best when Ty shawn is playing good and at the point. I guess my questions going forward and what will take from this game are as follows:

  1. If we get down in the tournament, will Collins simply try to take over like he did yesterday or will this team have grown and learned a valuable lesson about staying within the offense even when we are down, sign of maturity and leadership.

  2. What will the coaching staff do different if faced with a smaller, quicker, 3 point shooting opponent?

This team as not trailed by to many in any game this year, to me, they reverted to last year when they trailed big, I do think the game will be a great learning lesson for this team.

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Rick Arnoldy 4 years, 6 months ago

Hats off to OSU. They played well. We didn't. Period.

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Nick Cole 4 years, 6 months ago

WARNING: To all who think this is a one time freak thing!

This was a long time coming. KU has not played solid defense all year. They need to step up their game if they want to accomplish what they have set out to do. It can start on Wednesday. I am making a special trip to Lawrence for the game, and I don't want to leave disappointed.

Rock Chalk!!

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jaybate 4 years, 6 months ago

SCHNBALL,

I don't recall any zone by KU in the second half. Down 15-20 usually makes coaches seek to increase the trips by staying m2m and pressing in the second half to get more scoring opps. Playing zone usually causes an opponent with a big lead to hold it even longer on each possession, which reduces probable number of trips remaining.

Also, while OSU usually only pots treys at 36%, they were way hot vs. KU and so Self probably didn't want to give them any more free looks than they were getting.

In principle, playing some zone would have made sense to exploit OSU's lousy trinitizing, and to try to get back in control of the boards, but when KU got so far down, it was very tough to go zone for the reason I gave above. I suspect Coach Self will jump to a zone sooner the next time he plays a fiery hot team, or a team kicking KU's but on the board, even if only briefly to upset rhythmn.,

While I respect your takes, I see Collins different than you do. I think the reason Collins plays the wing so much is that Self wants Tyshawn's speed and defense in the game, but can't afford his weak trey on the wing. So: he moves Sherron to the wing, which puts a three point and shake and bake threat on both wings and minimizes Tyshawns lack of offense by putting him out on point.

IMHO, Sherron runs the offense better than Tyshawn. I believe the offense looks better sometimes with Tyshawn on the point, because then defenses are stretched wing to wing trying to guard X and Sherron. With the ball on one wing, the defense has to be very concerned about KU quickly reversing the ball around to the other wing.

But just judged purely on PG play, on getting the ball up court, getting it into play, and being a serious scoring threat from the PG, Sherron seems quite a lot better than Tyshawn.

What Tyshawn does better than Tyshawn, maybe better than almost anyone I have seen, when he is focused and juiced, is force it up court sneaky quick. Tyshawn can cover more ground faster than Sherron (than most in fact), because of longer legs and TT's just cat like quickenss.

Were KU to shift to a running game, from a half court muscle game, I would want Tyshawn on the point, though IMHO only the second half of the season has TT shown enough improvement in skill as a dribbler and passer to keep his TOs down in such a role.

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jaybate 4 years, 6 months ago

A backcourt next year of Tyshawn and Elijah, (or Selby, or Knight) pushing the ball up the court every trip with guys like Little and Releford flying with them could be an amazing blitzkrieg attack. It is not beyond Self's comfort zone either. His best Tulsa team could really get up and down the floor. And the '08 champion could run with just about anyone, when strategy and match-ups dictated running.

What will Self do the next time KU faces a small, quick trey shooting team?

He will make sure Cole brings his A-game first of all. In a pie chart of why we lost the game, about 80 percent of it was Cole's disappearance. We can't know for sure why Cole disappeared. Best guess is lung problems, maybe a recurrence of mono because of the three weeks of Saturday Monday games. Maybe mold and pollen season has started in Stillwater because its a little farther south than Lawrence. Who knows? But we know that a Cole getting his usual 12-15 reebs and 7-8 blocks that he tends to get against teams with front lines as small as OSU's, would have prevented OSU from ever opening up a big lead, and Cole pouring in 20-25 pts, as he is normally able to do against a small front line like OSUs, would have spelled a fairly easy victory even with OSU shooting the lights out.

The real question of the OSU loss is what really happened to Cole? Did Travis Ford finally figure out how to stop Cole with a short front court, or did Cole stop himself with a bad mental attitutde, or is Cole sick? Self and Cole are never going to tell us until after the season. I vote for a spike in lung inflammation, simply because he's struggled with breathing all season. But, again, anything is possible.

But while I could get down in a real hole and find an enormous amount of things done wrong by KU in the OSU loss, I just keep coming back to this: if Cole had played his usual game, we probably would have kicked their butts, despite them playing over their heads.

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jaybate 4 years, 6 months ago

In closing, this game was most like the TTech game last season. A guy had a great game (Anderson), plus Page, Keiton, and Pilgrim all had season best games, plus Muonelo played to his ability. Self said he didn't see many team beating OSU if those guys can play that way every game. What he didn't say is that there is no chance that they will, just as there was no chance last year that Voskuil was going to ever have another game like that.

It happens some times. To win a ring, you just have to hope it does not happen in the tourney at a time when one of your two anchors disappears, and your other anchor struggles for 3/4s of the game.

I'm a half full guy.

It is a testament to how good this team is that it could come within 8 without Cole and with Sherron not getting untracked for 3/4s of a game.

But you saw what happened when Sherron did get untracked against those very average guards of OSU. He hung 22 on them and half to 2/3s of those points came in the last six minutes. Sherron just beasted down the stretch. I'm very excited about Sherron probably breaking out of his slump down the stretch.

I would love to see him have a great game at KSU, have him hang 30 on the Kitties and go out in a blaze of glory against KSU. Probably won't happen, because Self will probably play through Marcus again. But if Cole is sick and a no show again, and Marcus is anything less than stellar, Sherron is going to get 20 FGAs and we're going to be on his back again.

There are worse places to be.

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jaybate 4 years, 6 months ago

Erratum: What Tyshawn does better than Tyshawn...

That should read "What Tyshawn does better than Sherron..." :-)

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jaybate 4 years, 6 months ago

BleedCandB,

Can they get beaten again? Of course,

Will they? Not likely.

They need to crank of their defense?

Over how they defended in Stillwater when Cole, who is the anchor of their defense, disappeared? Certainly.

But stop gripping, C&BHemmorhaging, this team has played tremendous muscle defense much of the year.

KU is easily the best m2m defensive team in the country.

You've got to let go of the '08 standard of defense. Chalmers, RR and BRush were freaks of nature. That team was IMHO the greatest defensive team in the history of college basketball, absolutely certainly the greatest one with out a great pure center on the scale of Walton, Jabbar, and Chamberlain.

This 2010 team is a half court muscle defense team. In Stillwater, the refs called the fouls almost like back when I was a kid. In any post season game, KU would have put OSU's players in the cheap seats constantly and they never would have had a chance to build up a lead to begin with.

The real 2010 team you saw defend KSU in the first game, TA&M, The Shorthorns, and so many other games this season; that's the real KU defensive team that opponents most often have to contend with.

Muscle ball defense is like this. There are two or three games a season where the refs decide to call the fouls in a rather old fashioned standard of permissible contact, and the muscle ball defensive team often takes it on the chin, because it isn't allowed to play to the level of aggression it is accustomed to. Ratso Izzo and Chigan State run into this every year a couple of times a season. But in the Madness, muscleball defense is the soup du jour every day and so Chigan State has its way with anyone who is prissy. KU fans may not like to admit it, but Self has constructed this team very much on the model of Ratso and Chigan State's way of playing, albeit with more flexibillity of ways it can play on offense. But on defense, if the refs take away the muscle ball, KU is a very hamstrung and beatable team. And if they don't, KU is almost impossible to beat, as its 27-2 record attests.

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Mike Kendall 4 years, 6 months ago

Remember, after seeing the CramSession of Okie State with Jesse Newell, my thinking was, "I just don't know about this game." "I have a bad feeling about this game," was my other quote. However, I thought the Hawks were going to win by three. Didn't happen--hats off to the Cowboys. O-State is in the Big Dance. After watching the Nova/Syracuse game Saturday night, the Orange looked like a Final Four team. The atmosphere in the Dome was fantastic.

I would love to see Syracuse, Kentucky, Duke or K-State and our beloved Jayhawks in the Final Four. That would be my dream match ups for the Final Four! The Jayhawks have to be a lot tougher though, in the next two weeks.

Rock Chalk!

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Nick Cole 4 years, 6 months ago

Jaybate,

you typically have some very nice insight and I respect your study and analysis of the game. I completely agree that we can be a very very good and tough defensive team. However, we have yet to put together a complete game defensively. It is the end of February. What is this team waiting for? We also have yet to put together a complete offensive game. Again, what's the hold up? Not to mention that we have yet to do both for 40 minutes in the SAME game. I would like to see it happen on Wednesday. Hopefully we destroy those mildcats. I am talking about a 20+ point victory (but I am expecting a close game). Anyway, just my two cents. If you think you have proof that my statements above are incorrect, I would love to hear the evidence.

Rock Chalk!!

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KULA 4 years, 6 months ago

mikendal--Duke won't make the final four. No inside game. I cracked up a couple wks ago when Lavin was doing their game. He was asked how far they could go & said "They could be a sweet sixteen team." Btw ralster, didn't we exorcise Duke Demons in 88?

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KULA 4 years, 6 months ago

Was Cole sick? Did anyone notice how red he was?

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KU 4 years, 6 months ago

Cole seemed to have a hard time breathing.

Duke is playing as a team better than anybody in the country right now. They are precisely the kind of team that can give KU fits if they shoot 50% from 3. Zoubek is really coming alive for them the last couple of weeks and it adds a whole new dimension to their team. He's a very good rebounder, and we know what having a 7'1 player in the paint can do. I hate Dookies as much as the next guy, but these guys are playing very tough. They will be tough for anybody to beat. Our best bet to see them get beat would be if they were a 2 seed in Syracuse's region because Syracuse is big and very physical. But they will probably get a 1 seed.

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kennethst 4 years, 6 months ago

WOW!! The sun actually came up 2 days in a row after a KU loss!! Unbelievable!!!

Ok.... a little sarcasm.....but some of you on this board really amaze me.

Sure....they had an awful game....no debate there. But....I'm curious.....did any of complainers ever have a bad day? Maybe a day you didn't do your best? Are you perfect?

This is a great team that had a bad game.....nothing more. Give them break. Guess what.....they may actually lose again. Deal with it and start supporting this team!!

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JHWK 4 years, 6 months ago

Regardless, Wednesday night will tell us if it was a blip on the radar, an opportunity to refocus and know we don't get a W for showing up. If we aren't tough Wednesday, K-State will rip our heads off. And for those of you writing that they had better watch out, pay heed. They will come in with nothing to lose, wanting to give Sherron their own going away party.

We may have forgotten to pack our toughness when we went to Stillwater, but let's hope it was waiting for the team when they got back. No one played tough, and no one made good decisions with the ball. Sherron MUST be better and eliminate turnovers, or his 'buddy' Jacob will eat his lunch.

Rock Chalk! Let's be ready to play!

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jaybate 4 years, 6 months ago

BleedCandB,

I too respect your takes and look forward to them.

I approach your very reasonable questions two ways.

I think with this KU team WYSIWYG.

I do not think they are going to blow good teams out.

I do not think they are going to be blown out by good teams.

I believe this team is the nearest fulfillment yet of the philosophy of Bill Self's 70 point take what they give us approach to the game.

This is not as talented of a team, nor as experienced of a team, as the '08 champion.

It is in fact, about where the '08 team was in physical and mental developmentthe year before the championship season, as it should given the chronology of its nucleus.

This team plays with three future NBA draft picks, and maybe a fourth with Marcus, though Marcus is probably a season away from being drafted.

This year's team is only 27-2 and No.1 because the rest of Division 1 is relatively weak this season.

If this team were playing in '08, I would call it a Sweet 16, or Elite 8 type team.

But this year, it is the only team in the country with all the pieces that a champion ought to have to make it. This is not a guaranty of a ring, but it makes this team the most likely candidate for a ring.

Why hasn't the team put any 40 minute games together on both offense and defense yet?

First, I don't know it can. The two anchors--Sherron and Cole--play on a lot of emotion and play in streaks, or bursts of energy. And Self has intentionally tried to get Sherron to play more in bursts of taking games over, the way some great players learn to do, in order to get more players involved this season (e.g,, Xavier). I don't know if Sherron and the team can change gears now and go back to letting Sherron dominate buzzer to buzzer the way he did last season and so occassionally blow teams out, when Sherron is waaaaay on.

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jaybate 4 years, 6 months ago

Second, I think because the team is neither overwhelmingly talented, nor as far into its possible chronology of development as the '08 team was, and UNC was last season, and Florida was for its second ring, and UNC was before that, that this year's KU team has labored many games this season and that has kind of slowed its development, to say nothing of hitting a stretch of lead legs at the tail end of Saturday Monday conference games.

When KU labors, it is not getting out on the break, or playing Self's athletic half court offense, and so is not truly playing Self's brand of long and quick basketball, which is actually a pretty speedy and athletic game when circumstances permit. When KU labors, that is when it is letting an opponent get it down in the muck, or is choosing to itself because the shots are not dropping, and plays grind it out, it is not developing as an empowered, athletic Self-style team, that can blow teams out. It is rather just mastering the tougheness required to win grind it out games.

You become what ever you do.

KU has had so many of these grind it out games that it has become a grind it out team, not an athletic, empowered team occasionally playing grind it out. This was a risk Self took, when he decided to craft the team more in the image of Ratso Izzo's Cheegan State mug ballers. They have this same problem.

Finally, I think Self knew he had a straight flush (not a royal flush or four aces) this season, at least relative to the rest of D1, and had a good chance to run the table.

I think he began the season with the curve ball of Brady getting bounced a semester, Withey being injured, and CJ Henry being injured, and this caused him to make some choices early that he may regret now.

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jaybate 4 years, 6 months ago

He fully expected Withey to be a serious contributor the second half of the season, not a starter but a serious contributor; that didn't happen.

He fully expected TRob to be serious contributor the second half of the season, not a starter, but a serious contributor.

So he red shirted Mario Little to be good to Little, as I think he should have.

But Little probably would have been enough extra defense to win the OSU game. He would have been the guy that could have hand cuffed either Muonelo, or Anderson, when Marcus and X were doing only so so with both. Hand cuffing either of those guys would have won that game.

Withey and TRob, as so much of the season, contributed almost nothing.

A team really can't afford to carry two players like Withey and TRob and get nothing out of them in today's game.

He also was expecting CJ Henry and Elijah to give significant minutes.

But both proved they couldn't defend against the cupcakes, CJ, a great trinitizer, seemed on track to panning out (though a little later than hoped) and then got hurt so he could not become the February man he was scripted to become that would let Sherron cut his minutes to 25 most games, and prevent Sherron from getting lead legs as March was starting.

Self's early season allocations of PT, and his mid season allocations of PT to Withey, indicate that Self wanted to move in the direction of being able to cut the PT of his stars Cole and Sherron.

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jaybate 4 years, 6 months ago

But Withey, CJ and Elijah could not produce in key ways required of 10-20 minute back ups and Self suddenly found his team laboring through game after game without effective depth; that is he found himself playing with 7-8 guys in January and February, as if it were March; this wore the team down by late February.

The only reason this team is 27-2 and has not lost the last couple of games, is that Self basically treated the first semester as a bunch of practice games. He only juiced the team for one, maybe two games the entire first semester.

He chose to play lots of guys and treat all the games as practice games, for several reasons, among them the luck of the schedule permitted him to do so. Teams that looked good before the season, like UCLA and UTenn, turned out to be wrecked by player departures, Self decided to take advantage of the schedules weakness, and of Brady being suspended, by playing lots of guys, teaching the team to play lots of different ways, and putting Tyshawn in the toughening box, all when it would not likely trigger any losses. And he rightly reasoned, doing so, even taking a loss or two, would leave lots more gas in his team's tank at the end of the season than other teams having to juice up and play hard 4 times in the first semester. Whether knowingly or not, Self was also by energy insurance for the KU team in the event that the injuries to Withey and CJ and to anyone unforeseen proved nagging and starting second semester he had to play only a few guys a ton of minutes.

It turned out to be kind of a worst case scenario, though Self's typically masterful masking of weaknesses and problems, has kept everyone's mind off KU's core crisis; that being the failure of fully four very, very important players (Withey, TRob, CJ and Elijah) failing to pan out at all.

Too many persons are making a bassakwards argument about these four players. They argue that if Self had played them more, they would have blossomed and we would have avoided being short handed and avoided Sherrron and Cole being so exhausted.

This is kind of a crazy arguement if you stop and think about it.

It implies that Self, a man with an 82% winning record, is too dumb to know this, not just in one case, but in four cases. The odds of this being true are infinitesimal.

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jaybate 4 years, 6 months ago

And the argument ignores that Self gave each of these players ample opportunities early on to perform and to Withey when he came on the scene. These players, either because of rustiness, or injury, or just not being emotionally ready to perform at a D1 level, did not do the basics they needed to do to earn the next level of more PT. Elijah was even given starts.

Here's the truth about this issue: coaches spend the greatest portion of their life recruiting. They try to recruit terrific players, because they know the terrific players make the team win and make the coach's job secure.

Coaches love to play as many players as are capable of playing well and giving the team what the team's roles require.

Coaches love competition for PT. They love being able to respond to a botched play by looking down the bench and saying, "Get in there for that guy!" Substituting one guy who can do it for another guy who is struggling is so empowering to a coach that they can never resist doing it...if they have a guy on the bench who can do it.

Withey, TRob, CJ, and Elijah, just couldn't do it this year.

Good lord, if these four players could have done it this year, with all the laboring and stretches of spotty play by tired starters, Self would have given these guys a ton of minutes, just to avoid the teams legs going dead at the end of February.

Self is nothing if not a realist. He is nothing if not a put the best team on the floor possible to win now.

He plays the guys that can play.

He gives several chances to guys he suspects maybe able to step up and so be added to the mix.

But they have to produce, they have to provide the things the team needs, not just look good.

Coulda, woulda, shoulda never did.

Someday, maybe, eventually if we just keep giving chances never did either.

Can this KU team ever play 40 minutes of great defense and 40 minutes of great offense?

I sincerely doubt it, or they already would have.

This team was designed and has become a team that can win by 15 against most any team, and doing so involves spurts of grind it out and spurts of superb play.

But no, I don't think this team has 40 minutes both ways of excellent play.

Rock Chalk!

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kennethst 4 years, 6 months ago

Jaybate,

I really enjoyed that fight you had with Theutus during the game on Saturday!!

I wish I would have been on this board during the game to instigate and further provoke the two of you!!

Hey Jaybate....I'm not worried about our team at all.....I think that game saturday was not a surprise. They didn't play well....so what? Look for them to be fired up vs K-State.

Also....I'm happy not be be #1 for now....how about you?

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