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Monday, March 16, 2015

Keegan

Column: KU vs. WSU? Yes, please

Wichita State center Bush Wamukota celebrates a turnover committed by Northern Iowa during the first half of their college basketball game at Koch Arena in Wichita, Kan., on Saturday, Feb. 28, 2015. Wichita State went on to win 74-60 to win their second straight Missouri Valley Conference title.

Wichita State center Bush Wamukota celebrates a turnover committed by Northern Iowa during the first half of their college basketball game at Koch Arena in Wichita, Kan., on Saturday, Feb. 28, 2015. Wichita State went on to win 74-60 to win their second straight Missouri Valley Conference title.

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Conspiracy theorists will have a blast with insisting the NCAA Tournament selection committee rigged a potential third-round matchup between Wichita State, which wants to play Kansas University, and the Jayhawks, who won’t play the Shockers.

I don’t buy that the committee juggles seeds in order to accommodate story lines.

I do buy that the committee, too reliant on crutches such as RPI and strength-of-schedule, sticks it to really good basketball schools that play outside powerful conferences.

A year ago, the committee had to reward the Shockers with a No. 1 seed, based on their being undefeated heading into the NCAA Tournament. So the committee grossly under-seeded Kentucky at No. 8 and put the Wildcats in Wichita State’s way. Kentucky won a classic, hotly contested battle and made it all the way to the title game.

Now this? The Shockers won the Missouri Valley Conference outright, and Northern Iowa won the conference tournament. Both schools deserved a No. 4 seed, maybe No. 5 at worst. UNI received a 5, the Shockers a 7.

So if our state’s dream showdown happens in Omaha, Kansas will be facing one angry bunch of basketball players, motivated to show the world that there is a reason nobody wants to play them, perhaps with more spectators rooting for the other guys, a la Saturday’s Big 12 title game in Kansas City.

It’s more than a No. 2 seed should have to face in its second game. Then again, Kansas probably was more deserving of a middle-of-the-road No. 3 seed. Iowa State was the best team it beat, and that was just once in three games.

Notre Dame, with a pair of victories against Duke, two more vs. North Carolina, and one at Louisville, did more to earn a 2 seed. As it turned out, they both are in the same region and could play each-other in a 2-3 game, so it didn’t matter. Maryland, a No. 4 seed in the Midwest, has a résumé more befitting a third seed. The Terps defeated Wisconsin, Iowa State in Kansas City and swept Michigan State in the regular season. It’s a loaded region, even before considering that Kentucky, the most dominant team since John Wooden’s UCLA squads, holds the No. 1 seed.

Advancing out of Kentucky’s bracket is a long shot, but if KU and WSU meet, winning a Round of 32 game would not be a bad consolation prize.

Let Kansas players worry about New Mexico State, Shockers about Indiana. The rest of us are counting the hours until the first Kansas-Wichita State game since 1993, when Kansas won, 103-54.

Comments

Reggie Flenory 7 years, 6 months ago

If wsu wants to play us so bad tell em to join the big 12

Len Shaffer 7 years, 6 months ago

That's one option. They could also choose to play at Allen. KU doesn't have a problem playing them at home, but there's nothing to be gained from having to go to Right Wing Wacko Arena.

Reggie Flenory 7 years, 6 months ago

I think what's going to happen is they and their fan base is going to be looking ahead they're trying to play us and whine up losing to Indiana

Joe Ross 7 years, 6 months ago

Nothing to be gained? How about the prospect of bolstering street cred with the Selection Committee next year by walking into WSU and beating a strong team on their floor in your non-con?

Reggie Flenory 7 years, 6 months ago

For what ? They don't play anybody all year long and,they have only been relevant in the last 4 years Wichita State is the definition of a flash in the pan team

Joe Ross 7 years, 6 months ago

You say they don't play anybody. Granted. I say they have clout with the Selection Committee anyway, and a win against WSU is a good win in their eyes.

As far as being a flash in the pan team, if we are going to have a reasonable discussion it has to begin by acknowledging that very simple fact we can not see the future. Many people are speaking as if WSU is destined for the drain, but when you ask them what they base that on it is always a guess that distills from some personal interpretation of what they "see". This is not an evidence-driven argument. A slightly more powerful argument (and again, only "slightly", but clearly preferable) is to look at how they've performed and from that evidence make a reasonable inference as to what their performance might look like next year.

Micky Baker 7 years, 6 months ago

The current commitments that Wichita State has for the class of 2015 doesn't look good. One 3-star and 2 unrateds. They hit a jackpot with one recruiting class that includes Cotton, VanVleet, and Baker. After next season they're gone. Those are the only three guys that average more than 30 minutes per game for them, and without them, they're nothing. Those 3 also account for 70% of the assists and 70% of the assists. Then there is Darius Carter who averages more points than Cotton, and Carter averages 11.2 points per game.

Cotton, VanVleet, and Baker account for somewhere between 55 and 60% of their free throws made. They're doing that in the MVC. They don't have any groundwork laid for the long-term.

Reggie Flenory 7 years, 6 months ago

I totally Agree bro like I said flash in the pan

Walter Bridges 7 years, 6 months ago

They have added Conner Frankamp to their roster next year after the 1st semester ends. ESPN ranks Markis McDuffie as a 4 star and they return 3 starters.

We have exactly ONE commit for next year.

Let's not forget Traylor and Mason are both 3 star recruits (Mason might have moved up in the final rankings but he was a a very mediocre 131st at one point).

Ron Prichard 7 years, 6 months ago

Joe, if the selection committee thinks so highly of WSU, why did they give them a 7 seed when they only have 4 losses, and were ranked well ahead of their seeding all year? KU has nothing to gain and everything to lose by playing in Wichita.

Chris Bailey 7 years, 6 months ago

Why do they have to be RIGHT WING WACKOS? I hold a degree from BOTH KU and WSU. I'm very proud of BOTH degrees and schools. Why do you have to bring the RIGHT WING comment out? I will promise you there are a lot of Jayhawks that are conservative, me being one of them. So keep your political agenda to yourself. Thanks and have a nice day! Rock Chalk! and Go WOO!

Benjamin Clay Jones 7 years, 6 months ago

Overly sensitive much, Chris Bailey? Charles Koch is a right wing wacko. Live with it.

Cody Riedy 7 years, 6 months ago

Chris: it's called false equivalencies. Gates runs charities. The Koch brothers run a political party; via their political arm ALEC, they actually write legislation for the Republican party. Yes, the Koch brothers are not the only super wealthy donors on either side of the political spectrum. But they do play a central role and their name is often used as short hand for the larger problem of money in politics. Making a point about "right wing wackos" may not be particularly civil on this website, but your response was not only uncivil, but outright stupid. Referencing "balls" as a marker of political courage, using the term "pu**y" as a criticism, and throwing out the juvenile term "libtard" makes you look exactly like a stereotype of the misogynist, uninformed "right wing wacko" you take offense to.

Benjamin Clay Jones 7 years, 6 months ago

Trying to reason with a right-winger, Cody? Give it up. Reason is not their strong suit. Emotion is. As evidenced by his bent-out-of-shape reply.

Chris Bailey 7 years, 6 months ago

You're entitiled to your opinion. And I appreciate you writing something intelligent. You are correct on everything you said. And yes my comment was stupid. Like a lot of people I get mad when people talk smack. And you're right I shouldn't have posted that. I don't know why Ben even started in on me because I didn't comment to him. But his name calling isn't any less out of line than mine. And I don't attack people on here unless they attack me which is clearly what happened. Gates runs charities sure but it's not like it effects his net worth. He gets richer every year as do the Koch brothers. They both provide jobs to our country. And the Koch's do donate money to WSU and the community of Wichita. Ultimately I'm sorry I posted my response I shouldn't have engaged him. Thanks for pointing out what I should have done.

Cody Riedy 7 years, 6 months ago

Admitting error is a lot easier than pointing out. So I appreciate your reply. Anyone who has spent much time at all on the internet has a post or two (or two dozen) that they wrote in haste and probably want to take back, myself included, especially where politics are involved.

Cody Riedy 7 years, 6 months ago

Just realized I said the exact opposite of what I meant: admitting is harder than pointing out.

Micky Baker 7 years, 6 months ago

Soros ring a bell? He has way more influence than the Koch Brothers do. And by the way, Soros doesn't run any charities that I know of. Charles Koch does though and Charles Koch doesn't try to force participation in his like Bill Gates is trying with Common Core.

Joe Ross 7 years, 6 months ago

Same team, guys! Let's police ourselves so the site doesn't have to do it. Vigorous debate without pulling punches while being respectful of your ideological opponent makes a fun conversation for all of us to enjoy. Keep rockin the chalk, fellas.

Chris Bailey 7 years, 6 months ago

Yeah I'm with Joe. You are one of the good guys on here for sure and your posts are always insightful. Sorry man. Got a little hot headed.

Walter Bridges 7 years, 6 months ago

I wish we could leave politics off this site but sadly there are those who cannot.

Micky Baker 7 years, 6 months ago

Benjamin, Charles Koch is? You don't even know him.

Here's a link to the Charles Koch foundation. http://www.charleskochfoundation.org/

Ever go to Walmart and buy Georgia Pacific paper? Koch Industries makes it in the United States.

http://www.gp.com/ I bet you've bought some of these products, all made in the USA. So, maybe it's the accuser who needs to look in the mirror when it comes to "wack job" remarks.

I'd also like to point out that those who railed against me and supported getting my post removed in another article are silent about these "right wing wacko" posts. Why is that? Anyone? Hypocritical much?

Benjamin Clay Jones 7 years, 6 months ago

Charles Koch opened a John Birch Society bookstore in Wichita in his 20s, stocked with materials opposing the civil rights movement, and belonged to the society for years. Bircher = wacko.

And no, I don't go to Walmart.

Micky Baker 7 years, 6 months ago

Obama hung out with Bill Ayers... and Anita Dunn... you know she is? They're both CURRENT Weather Underground. Stop being pretentious. If you're going to have these standards for Koch and not for Obama, then don't pretend that you're standing on principle.

Senator Robert Byrd, KKK member, was still a Democrat in the US Senate in 2010 when he passed away. But, what did you say about him? He filibustered the Civil Rights Act of 1964, and he was still elected as a Democrat from then on. You think "he changed"?

You see, go check out Charles Koch's foundation and you tell me what is "wacko" about that! I know you can't!

Benjamin Clay Jones 7 years, 6 months ago

Why so hot and bothered on behalf of a billionaire bent on turning America into an oligarchy? Now you're starting to sound like a wacko yourself, with your Weather Underground delusions. Since you're so fond of links extolling the Kochs, here's one for ya: http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/inside-the-koch-brothers-toxic-empire-20140924

Benjamin Clay Jones 7 years, 6 months ago

I thought Obama was a socialist. How can he be turning it into an oligarchy if he's a socialist? Get your story straight!

Benjamin Clay Jones 7 years, 6 months ago

Let me see if I can reiterate this to make it simpler for you: Can anyone belong to the John Birch Society and NOT be a wacko? By definition, a Bircher is a wacko. He might be a Birther too. Bircher + Birther = DOUBLE wacko.

Micky Baker 7 years, 6 months ago

There you go, being extremely partisan. You know, if you were genuine I wouldn't write what I I'm posting, and this is my last post.

You're a complete and utter nutjob. Please take the tincap off.

Benjamin Clay Jones 7 years, 6 months ago

Sez the man who thinks "Bircher" is a fine thing to put on one's resume.

Benjamin Clay Jones 7 years, 6 months ago

"This is my last post." Couldn't resist, could you?

"Nutjob"? "Nazi"? I think you must have me confused with Sarah Palin.

"Pretty soon, we would get the reputation that the company and the Kochs were crazy." --Bill Koch

Read more: http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/inside-the-koch-brothers-toxic-empire-20140924#ixzz3UfSYf7Zg

Walter Bridges 7 years, 6 months ago

It's because some people on both sides feel the need to bolster themselves by politicizing their views everywhere, even on a KU basketball site. Pretty sad.

Steve Gantz 7 years, 6 months ago

Anyone liberals disagree with is a right wing wacko. And I thought they were the tolerant party.

Nathan Scholl 7 years, 6 months ago

I'm pretty sure Wichita State would need to have a football team to join the Big Twelve......they have a tragic history in football.

Dirk Medema 7 years, 6 months ago

Even if they had a FB team, the Big 12 wouldn't take them.

Code_2008 7 years, 6 months ago

Big 12 told them to get a Football team first, so that really isn't an option as WSU has no intention of bring a football team back.

Vernon Riggs 7 years, 6 months ago

They might decide that it is dangerous to get what they have asked for. I hope that each year they make the NCAA tournament, we play. I still don't think Kansas should add them to the non-conference schedule.

Robert Brown 7 years, 6 months ago

Maybe they should just play every year. People who talk about the risk of playing them act like they are afraid KU might lose a game now and then. What if they played in December this year and KU lost. Would that have been any more embarrassing than losing by 25 points to Temple who didn't even make the tournament? Games played in December and November are usually forgotten by March. Ask Temple.

I also agree with Tom that the committee sticks it to the mid-majors and favors mediocre teams from power conferences. WSU has been ranked in the Top 20 all year and is a 7 seed?

Cody Riedy 7 years, 6 months ago

I don't think people are so much worried about losing a game to them, it's more that KU scheduling them every year gives WSU more credibility, increases their national exposure, and generally helps grow Wichita's program, while doing nothing for ours except occasionally giving WSU fans something to gloat about and other KU-haters a chance for some schadenfreude.

Armen Kurdian 7 years, 6 months ago

I just don't want to play WSU because I don't want either team to take a loss. But, if it will help WSU build a better resume so that they don't get screwed on a seed line, I'd be fine to do a home & home once.

Trent Rose 7 years, 6 months ago

Bill Self will never do a home and home with a non-power 5 conference team. The absolute best Wichita State could hope for would be a 2 for 1 scenario with one game at Allen, one game at WSU, and one at the Sprint Center.

Ron Prichard 7 years, 6 months ago

What these three responses are missing out on is the recruiting angle. Playing Temple in Philadelphia gives KU presence in the New England area loaded with recruits. San Diego allows a trip to California exposing the West Coast recruits to KU. Nevada is the same way. A home and home with Wichita doesn't expose KU to anyone not already exposed to KU by home games. KU is a national presence that plays home games against Pitt St., Fort Hays, Washburn, etc, to help those schools out with thier annual budgets. KU plays away games to help further its own interests nationally.

Aaron Paisley 7 years, 6 months ago

You're right that some of those teams are in fertile recruiting areas, but you missed the point. Trent flat out said Bill Self doesn't schedule home and home's with non P5 (or Big East before their demise in football) programs and UNLV can also be added to that list.

Benz Junque 7 years, 6 months ago

There is NO risk of playing them. There's just no benefit that isn't gained in a game against a different good team that also has additional recruiting benefits. This is 100% about KU's recruiting principles and nothing to do with fearing a loss to our in-state cousin.

KU likes to book home and homes with teams that are in recruiting grounds we want to get into. San Diego State. Georgetown, Temple, Ohio State, Michigan State. The list goes on. We're already pulling the best recruits from Wichita so playing there is of no additional benefit.

Robert Brown 7 years, 6 months ago

Recruiting is a convenient excuse. One game at Temple or at San Diego State is all of the sudden going to get us recruits in California or the East Coast. How many recruits do we get from Michigan or Ohio?

Roy Williams used to schedule games close to where some of the players live but I do not think that is done anymore.

Someone is really afraid that Wichita State could gain credibility and out recruit KU if they won a few games? They will always be in the Missouri Valley and KU will always be in a Big 5 conference. There is probably no player on the WSU roster that KU even thought about recruiting.

Cody Riedy 7 years, 6 months ago

"Excuse"? KU gets nothing from playing Wichita State. Period. What we get from playing a team like Michigan State or Ohio State is national television exposure. What we get playing Wichita, besides in a situation like this - in the NCAA tournament during a time when Wichita State is probably at the greatest heights in its history - is local interest in a state with few TV sets and fewer division 1 recruits. Again, KU gets nothing from regularly scheduling Wichita State, while Wichita State has everything to gain as long as they are competitive. If they returned to mediocrity, they'd instantly quit clamoring to schedule us. If you disagree, please elaborate the benefits for KU.

Robert Brown 7 years, 6 months ago

How many people do you really think watch college basketball in November and early December. Hardly anyone? KU played Michigan State on November 30th which was a Sunday afternoon. What are people watching on a Sunday afternoon in November? It's not a meaningless college basketball game. It's the NFL.

ESPN would prefer KU vs. Wichita State in December over KU- Temple or KU versus Cornell or some of the handful of cupcakes at home whch are all broadcast on ESPN.

Cody Riedy 7 years, 6 months ago

You're right; no one is watching a lot of college basketball in November or December except when its a marquee matchup. So, if we play Wichita State and win no one cares, but if we lose, than, even if not for a long, it's a story, which benefits WSU, but not us.

In any case, if WSU wants to schedule us, then I'd say fine, let's do a ten year deal. Maybe WSU will sustain this run, but if historical precedent repeats and their program comes back to earth a little, I don't want them to puff up their chest and squabble about playing us the once every twenty years they are really good. Playing them in those circumstances is only doing them a favor. If they want to play, fine, but again, let's make it semi-permanent.

Also, to be clear, I don't have any angst against WSU in general. I've always cheered for them and I think their success has been really cool. I just don't think KU is obligated to help them out in any way that doesn't benefit us equally.

Micky Baker 7 years, 6 months ago

You know something? I couldn't care less what ESPN wants. They know what KU basketball is. We do NOT need Wichita State. They need us, but as soon as they lose 3 or 4 games in a row by 30 points, they'll weasel out of the series.

John Pritchett 7 years, 6 months ago

"There is probably no player on the WSU roster that KU even thought about recruiting."

Frankamp.

Glen Miller 7 years, 6 months ago

Wrong..... they have Frankamp. If you remember correctly, he went to KU first. So, we have recruited a player on their team, he just couldn't hack it at KU lol.

Jim Schilling 7 years, 6 months ago

If the committee doesn't "juggle seeds to accommodate story lines" why does Keegan start the very next paragraph about last year suggesting that they did that very thing to WSU because they "had to" give them a 1 seed? If KU was a 1 seed and lost to an 8 seed he'd simply suggest KU was no good and should never have been a 1. I guess they'd better be ready to win their first game against IU. Self certainly knows how to have the Jayhawks ready so I imagine they'll be motivated just as much should the matchup materialize.

Robert Brown 7 years, 6 months ago

That is not what he is saying. He is saying that the committee favors mediocre Power 5 teams over mid-majors like Wichita.

His point last year was that the committee had no choice but to give WSU a #1 seed last year-- they were undefeated, but the still got screwed because UK was cleared underseeded as the 8 seed. The committee could have put UK in three other brackets but chose to put them in WSU's making it harder for them to advance.

Jim Schilling 7 years, 6 months ago

So are you saying they didn't deserve the 1 seed last year? If that was the case was Kentucky the chosen assassin being purposefully under-seeded to "take them out?" That seems like setting up a story line to me. Call it punishing a mid-major if you want.

Same thing applies this year, WSU could have been a 7 anywhere but they are a 7 with KU as a 2. Now, is that punishing a mid-major or setting up a story line? Most here seem to think WSU will win so that doesn't seem like a punishment. Sorry, but Keegan is full of it.

Steve Jacob 7 years, 6 months ago

I don't know how good WSU is. Look at the four losses, @Utah and @UNI are fine. Even losses to George Washington in Hawaii and Ill. State in the MVC semis are OK, they are 20+ win NIT teams. I just am not impressed with any other win besides UNI at home. Memphis, Tulsa, Alabama, Seton Hall are fine but unexciting. Heck beating Indiana would be it's second best win of the season.

Kent Wells 7 years, 6 months ago

Riiiiight, the NCAA selection committee doesn't do that stuff on purpose... And the SMU v. UCLA game isn't a thing either. The KU v. UNC matchups were a coincidence. The only thing they missed this year was having Kentucky play Robert Morris!

And mark it down, the first chance they can pull it off (i.e., one if the schools has to get drastically better), we are playing Missouri....

Aaron Paisley 7 years, 6 months ago

In 2013, the selection committee had Kansas as a 1 seed, North Carolina as an 8, and Missouri and Wichita State as 9 seeds. Definitely could've had a much more interesting storyline than what actually happened, especially considering that KU was playing in Kansas City for those games.

Tracey Graham 7 years, 6 months ago

I think KU needs to play Wichita State and Missouri on a regular basis. Why deprive fans of 2 of the best rivalries in KU history. If they lose the occasional game to those schools, so what? It wouldn't be the end of the world.

I'm hoping for this 2nd round matchup. Go 'Hawks!

PS - ND played NO ONE out of conference. Their non-conf SOS was #327. KU's non-conf SOS was #4. ND had 14 wins vs teams ranked OUTSIDE the RPI Top 150. Which balances out their wins over Duke, et al. Kansas has 10 wins over teams that were ranked in AP Top 25 at time of game; ND has 6. KU has 12 wins vs teams currently ranked in RPI Top 50; ND has 7

Sorry, but ND doesn't deserve a #2 seed over KU...Not that it really matters -- neither team is likely to beat Kentucky.

Benz Junque 7 years, 6 months ago

People have been saying we needed a little easier schedule this year, so Mizzou certainly would have helped with that.

Damian Glaze 7 years, 6 months ago

KU has never and will never have a rivalry with Wichita State. I'm not sure why people are making a game against WSU more than what it is. It's a game against a mediocre mid-major that we should win but can potentially lose. That's all it is.

Robert Brown 7 years, 6 months ago

Mediocre mid-major? Really? They are not mediocre. I get that you don't like then, but there is no need to say something that is not factually correct. They were ten minutes from playing for a national championship two years ago and was a number 1 seed last year. This year, they only lost 4 games. They lost by 1 point at Utah. The same team that went lost a close game as KU's home away from home.

Len Shaffer 7 years, 6 months ago

I believe Damian is referring to WSU's history, not the current batch of players.

Damian Glaze 7 years, 6 months ago

Recent success doesn't change who they really are. Here are the facts: Over the last 15 years they have only been to the NCAA tournament five times - four of those appearances being the last four years. They will eventually be back to being a 18-12 type of team - Mediocre.

2000–01 9–19 4–14 9th MVC L 1st round 2001–02 15–15 9–9 5th MVC L 1st round 2002–03 18–12 12–6 3rd MVC Semis, NIT Opening round 2003–04 21–11 12–6 t-2nd MVC Semis, NIT 1st round 2004–05 22–10 12–6 2nd MVC Semis, NIT 2nd round 2005–06 26–9 14–4 1st MVC Semis, NCAA Sweet 16 2006–07 17–14 8–10 6th MVC Quarters 2007–08 11–20 4–14 9th MVC L 1st round 2008–09 17–17 8–10 5th MVC Quarters, CBI 2nd round 2009–10 25–10 12–6 2nd MVC 2nd, NIT 1st round 2010–11 29–8 14–4 2nd MVC Semis, NIT Champions 2011–12 27–6 16–2 1st MVC Semis, NCAA 2nd round 2012–13 30–9 12–6 2nd MVC 2nd, NCAA Final 4 2013–14 35–1 18–0 1st MVC Champs, NCAA 3rd round

Damian Glaze 7 years, 6 months ago

And if you go back another 10-13 years prior to 2000 there were ZERO tournament appearances. Those are the facts.

Micky Baker 7 years, 6 months ago

Robert, KU doesn't have a home away from home.

Micky Baker 7 years, 6 months ago

No, that's not a home away from home. Bramlage is. K-State has only beat us 4 times there.

Joe Ross 7 years, 6 months ago

That mediocre mid-major nearly bounced both Louisville in 2013 and DI leading and National Champion runner-up Kentucky from the tournament last year, so there's that.

Cody Riedy 7 years, 6 months ago

KU and Wichita State could become a rivalry if we chose to schedule them regularly, but we've played 14 times in over a 100 years and probably only 1 or 2 of those games were consequential. At least as of yet, I'm not sure that qualifies as one "of the best rivalries in KU history."

Walter Bridges 7 years, 6 months ago

We already have KState and ISU is nearing the rivalry status.. When Mizzou left the BIG 12, they lost the privilege to play us. Let the Antlers throw urine on someone else.

Ron Prichard 7 years, 6 months ago

How is Wichita State a rival, let alone one of the two best in KU history? I agree with the rest of your post, but you lose me with that argument.

Thomas Luxem 7 years, 6 months ago

Don't buy it. With TV numbers down for college basketball, that's exactly what they're doing. They are worried about the numbers this year with UK being so dominant. That's why UK's bracket is so tough. WVU. They want to see if UK can handle pressure. Maryland is no easy win. Then you have, either KU, WSU, or ND waiting. All with a great storyline. This is all about filling seats. And, I don't mind.

Gerry Butler 7 years, 6 months ago

And we get that your a WSU wanna be trolling on the KU site Robert thanks buddy. like has been said repeatedly KU has absolutely NOTHING to gain from playing WSU in a non-conference game NOTHING. not a consistent recruiting fruitful area for us at all, more like once in awhile, we Recruit California, the west coast, lots of good players around the Temple area we play against them quite frequently, East Coast its like they said last night when they were discussing the matchups and or possible match ups they said oh well this is a game WSU wanted motivated, and talk like KU would not have any motoviation for the possible game, then Jay Bilas says he fully believes KU WILL be motivated, they would have reason saying it would be the game wher they could be able finally tell the WSU fans now shut the hell up lmao.. I/we all know Robert if WSU was in the big 12 that would NOT fare nearly as well middle of the pack, NOT BETTER then BAYLOR, NOT BETTER then ISU, NOT BETTER then OKLAHOMA they have only had maybe 4 good years recently out of how many? until they show they are consistent and play with upper echelon on regular bases NOTHING to be gained for KU because it would be just another win, not monumental if we played and beat them,it would be well you shou ld have beat them, but if we lost it would be HUGE for them NOT HAPPENING ROCK CHALK ALL DAY BABY

Robert Brown 7 years, 6 months ago

Gerry- You clearly don't know me. Even though your posting was not very coherent, I assume it was directed at my comments. One of the most gut wrenching losses I ever experienced was Wichita State over KU in the 1981 Sweet 16 when I was in school. It took days for me to get over the loss. That KU team was on a roll at the end of the year and could have gone to the Final 4.

There is an arrogance with some fans which is a product of the program's unparallelled success since the Williams era which bothers me from time to time. KU basketball has been successful beyond my wildest dreams but that doesn't mean that fans should denigrate the success and accomplishments of teams and other coaches.

The Wichita State story is a great story. I understand there is probably some jealousy with all of the publicity they have received the last three years, but it is deserved. It is hard for me to believe that some KU fans cannot acknowledge that.

Joe Ross 7 years, 6 months ago

Everyone pay attention.

Avoiding playing WSU right now can work, but only because Kansas is perceived as the better program. But the state of things will change if WSU beats us in the round of 32. Though Kansas will still be regarded as the better program, suffering a defeat to the Shockers and then avoiding them looks like we're chicken.

Look. If you are the bully on the block then you should never have a problem shoring up your street cred by thumping on the heads of wanna be gangsters.

Justin Kruse 7 years, 6 months ago

Just beat 'em and shut 'em up! If we can cut down our turnovers and start hitting some 3's I think we could make a nice run. Can't wait for Friday!

Danny Hernandez 7 years, 6 months ago

Screw Mizzou, I never want Kansas to schedule them in my lifetime. Let them rot I'm for scheduling WSU but not at their arena. And while I'm ranting, who did ISU rub to be able to play Kansas twice in the Big12 tourney without Embiid and now this year, No Cliff and a less than healthy Perry? Talk about luck. I'm for adding the asterik to their wins over us. I mean all their fans were mouthing off last year after Niang went down the NCAA's as the reason for losing and with good reason

John Fitzgerald 7 years, 6 months ago

The potential KU vs WSU matchup is more interesting to WSU because it gives them a chance to cover up their insecurities. They spend all this energy on blasting KU because we won't schedule them. This is a business, and it doesn't make business since. We have more to lose and not much to gain. Even Jay Bilas said it. And didn't Marshall call us the "chickenhawks"...? They feel disrespected because we won't play them, but they should feel respected that we don't want to play them with the fear that we could lose. They are a good team, and I liked them until Marshalls comment. What's the sense of starting a fire you can't put out? They say WSU will come in with a chip on their shoulder, but what about KU? I mean, their coach disrespected our name. I think WSU should be careful with their 1st matchup though. Indiana will not be a pushover and have played in a much deeper conference. Either way, I'll be ecstatic if we make it through the weekend. Anything else will just be icing on the cake.

Robert Brown 7 years, 6 months ago

The WSJ put it best today describing the fanbases and the potential match-up:

"Wichita State fans care care so much about the Jayhawks that beating them would seem like winning it all. Kansas fans think so little about Wichita State that they prefer to pretend the Shockers don't exist".

John Fitzgerald 7 years, 6 months ago

I used to be a fan until their coach called us "chickenhawks." If you want support or respect dont be a baby about it. Marshal has to understand things don't change over night. Maybe in the future we can start a home and away series with them but right now it's simply not going to happen. And why would they think KU fans pretend they don't exist? This just seems too much like a Brady Brunch scenario where WSU is just crying "Marsha, Marsha, Marsha!." KU has earned their place in history, until WSU earns theirs all they need to do is shut up and play.

Mike Riches 7 years, 6 months ago

Well said! :) If we're fortunate enough to play them (and that is an if, NMSU is playing well right now) then I hope our guys approach the game like WSU is the reigning National Champion. The worst mistake we can make in any of these games is believing we are a superior team, and that we don't have to play with everything we've got!

Ludwig Supraphonic 7 years, 6 months ago

KU recruits nationally. A trip to San Deigo or Philadelphia is a reward for current players and indicates our status as a national program. Wichita not so much.

Micky Baker 7 years, 6 months ago

Well, WSU could play Garden City Community College because it's close to where Ron Baker is from.

Cody Riedy 7 years, 6 months ago

I've been poking around this debate all day. Final thoughts and try to walk away.

  1. Maybe some fans are jerks about it, but I don't look down on Wichita State or try to dismiss their recent success. In fact, I've always cheered for them and think their current run has been pretty cool. If someone said that Wichita State was better than KU the last couple years, I wouldn't get bent out of shape about it. Yes, Wichita State has been very good the past three seasons. It doesn't hurt me as a KU fan to admit that.

  2. BUT, there's a reason KU quit scheduling WSU. The last time we played them was in the late 90s when we won four in a row by about a 30 point average.

  3. That said, historically, there has been little to gain for KU to schedule WSU. Now that WSU is having a lot of success, I don't think KU is obligated to immediately jump to schedule them. I haven't studied WSU's schedule, so I could be way off, but if they are so pumped about scheduling games against elite D1 programs - have they called the top tier teams in the ACC and the Big 10 or even other Big 12 teams?

  4. The tournament matchup is awesome for most people. But the main reason it is awesome, is because we don't play them every year. Would it be a story if we were playing K-State in the round of 32? Not really, at least not the same kind of story.

  5. All things aside, if Wichita wants to schedule KU, fine. I just don't think it should be about KU "acknowledging" Wichita's recent success. It should be a longer term decision to have an annual instate game between all of the state's D-1 teams, including K-State. This means, if Wichita falls back to earth a little, too bad. If Wichita wants to be seen as on equal footing with KU, than they should play us every year like an equal, not just when they feel confident, and they should schedule other significant games in their non-con schedule.

Joe Ross 7 years, 6 months ago

Good post. There is much I agree and disagree with, so I wont pick out every point. I do want to mention one thing that I haven't seen in your posts or these comments. One of the main reasons Coach Self doesn't want to schedule WSU is because he feels it doesn't help recruiting inside the State of Kansas, where KU enjoys the upper hand. He also feels that it kind of "wastes" a game because games in the non-con played outside the State (on the east or west coast, Chicago, or some other major cities) give a chance for big name recruits and their families to come and see the Jayhawks play. In essence, it's an advertisement for the program among recruits.

To me, however, if youre going to make the argument as you do in point 5 (i.e., that scheduling should not be about acknowledging WSU's success), then you should also argue that not scheduling them should not solely be about recruiting, inasmuch as there are definite benefits in playing WSU as long as they perform well, that fan interest locally would be high, and because there is nothing illogical about playing one more game in a season than you would have otherwise.

Mike Riches 7 years, 6 months ago

You're absolutely correct Joe. Perry and Conner are of course the most recent examples. Though I wonder if Conner transferring to WSU may have an impact in the future...maybe start to tip the scales a little bit? If Marshall starts to recruit some if the top talent in the state, that may affect Self's thinking.

Walter Bridges 7 years, 6 months ago

Good post Cody. I still give Mark Turgeon a lot of the credit turning Wichita State around during his tenure at Wichita. Turgeon was able to get the Shockers into three NIT Tournaments and the NCAA Tournament, winning two games and making it to the Sweet 16.

Obviously,Wichita State found the right replacement for Turgeon when they hired Gregg Marshall. I think if Kansas didn't play Wichita State when Mark Turgeon was at the helm than I doubt they will play each other at least in the foreseeable future. How long will Marshall stay at Wichita?

Maybe Wichita State should try to get Kansas State to play them. As of now, it's 1-13 against the Jayhawks and it won't get any better this weekend.

Micky Baker 7 years, 6 months ago

I'm going to be quite honest here. There is nothing for KU to gain with an annual game vs. Wichita State. It's pretty well known that Kansas isn't afraid to schedule giants. No other team came close to playing as many Top 50 or Top 100 teams.

Gonzaga, they've proved themselves. Butler, they went to back to back final fours.

Wichita State wants it bad, but they only wanted it when they had a good team. They didn't want it before that. They won't want it after Vanvleet, Baker, and Cotton are gone. We'd be better off scheduling Northern Iowa, because they've been way more consistent than WSU has.

We'll probably get it on Sunday in Omaha, and that'll be okay, but we should not schedule them during the regular season.

I wrote in another post what it would take for me to be okay with it.

  1. Restore Football.
  2. Use revenues from that to build basketball program into something sustainable, because right now it isn't.

That's a 5 to 7 year project after the time in which they decide to do that, if they do that, and there is no indication they are even talking about doing that. So no, WSU, you shouldn't get KU on your schedule every year.

Code_2008 7 years, 6 months ago

*2nd Round, Tom.

Let's not give into the NCAA's bullsh*t by calling it the "2nd and 3rd" rounds. They will ALWAYS be 1st and 2nd rounds to every fan out there whether the NCAA likes it or not.

Humpy Helsel 7 years, 6 months ago

I think I would just worry about beating New Mexico State. Then we'll talk.

Roger Tobias 7 years, 6 months ago

Two points not above mentioned:

Cody, I wish the NCAA would just expand to 96 teams. The bottom 8 seeds in each bracket would have play-in games, the top 8 get, essentially, a bye. That would almost be a third of the entire NCAA field, and would forever shut up all the bubble whiners, because certainly there would be a number of teams with losing records in the first 32 elimination games. Then, let the 32 losers of those games go play in the NIT.

Why don't we just schedule WSU pre-season, instead of Washburn, Fort Hays, Emporia or Pitt State? I am sure they would take money for playing us, and certainly couldn't pay us equally with a game in Wichita.

Mike Riches 7 years, 6 months ago

Unfortunately 96 may happen one day. I'm one who believes 64 was perfect, why mess with it? I can't stand the bubble whiners that pop up every year, especially teams who play in a power conference. This isn't football, every team has a chance to play their way in by winning their conference tournament. Win enough to get in or go the NIT, is how I feel...

Micky Baker 7 years, 6 months ago

Yeah, I don't think 96 is a good idea. It's also probably not a good idea to have the play-in games either because that only exacerbates the controversy. The NCAA is going at it from the money angle, not the sport angle. They would be better off if they let the sport be entertaining on its own. People will buy tickets and tune into ESPN. But, if they're going to do that, they have some other large tasks to do.

For example, do we really think TCU should be in the tourney? Not this year. They would have no incentive to get better if they could get in the NCAAs with this season's resume. It would cause a lot of teams to settle for mediocrity because they "made it to the big dance".

If we were talking football, that playoff should be expanded. You can be a great football team and not have a chance at a title because of the biases that go into the choosing of the teams in the playoff. The last games of the season can be played the last weekend in November. Then they can have a 5 or 6 week period for playoffs. Take 16 teams, and separate those from all the other bowl games which would give more teams incentive to play in the bowls which would help the sport across all of D1 instead of playing favorites with certain conferences. Give a two week period between the regional championship and the national championship, and make sure everyone is done playing in the regular on Thanksgiving weekend. Now the NCAA would make more money without diluting the entertainment value.

Not in basketball though. Let those other guys duke it out for the NIT title.

Brandon Dey 7 years, 6 months ago

I was wondering how in the world could there be over 90 comments about this article?

Got it, another brilliant political debate that had nothing to do with it.

For the other half of the real posts, I support our scheduling team, and our coach. I am thrilled we do not play WSU nor Missouri.

Rodney Crain 7 years, 6 months ago

Micky I did not post this. You are not worth of my time to be honest I dont give a damn about you and your rants amymore.

To be honest you are so tiresome I would rather not waste a moment on you and your bile.

Shut Up??? Settle down little one. Remember focus on who you are really upset with.

Hold on to reality if you can, it is much better in the sun...

Micky Baker 7 years, 6 months ago

Rodney,

You're wasting space on this website every time you post, regardless of what account you use.

Brandon Dey 7 years, 6 months ago

Got your email Rodney, will do. Thanks for the advice.

Joe Ross 7 years, 6 months ago

Hey guys. This forum is not KState, Mizzou and Kentucky vs. Kansas. We're all on one side, are we not? What happens is that two people see things differently. Over successive articles their different perspectives become apparent. We end up going head-to-head in the comments section and before you know it a philosophical difference becomes a personal one.

Mickey and Rodney, you both know at one time Ive had major disagreements with both of you on a personal level. But those days are gone. It takes effort to broker a peace between two previously antagonistic personalities. But I know that each of you are capable of doing it because youve both done it with me. We're all Hawk fans, right?

Micky Baker 7 years, 6 months ago

Joe,

I tried to do it a long time ago. Now he's using different user names, and he's admitted to having more than one. I tried to make peace with the Rodney Crain, aka Brandon Dey. I know it's him. What he said to me using Dey is the same kinds of things he said under Crain. It's the same person doing it. If he wants to play, it's on him. So far, Brett McCabe hasn't chimed in either, because he can't say "Teabagger" to the left wing, and he thinks is left wing buddies would probably ridicule him for not having a double standard.

Rodney Crain and Brandon Dey are the same person.

It's amazing that Rodney Crain knew I responded to Brandon Dey 27 minutes after I posted my response. Well, not really, because Rodney got email notifications to responses he made under the name Brandon Dey. He suscribed to the responses and got it, then used a different name so as to not be accountable for his own actions, or at least, an attempt to not be accountable.

Rodney admitted to me that he has multiple usernames.

Benjamin Clay Jones 7 years, 6 months ago

You're the guy who thinks all the posters on here are out to get you. You probably have a picture of Palin in your bedroom, don't you? There's another neurotic nutjob.

Micky Baker 7 years, 6 months ago

Benjamin, I've witnessed them doing it. You're not courageous enough to go see it. Not my problem.

Why would you assume that I have a picture of Palin in my bedroom? Is that all you leftists think about? Can you not ever rise up above the immature Saul Alinksy tactics? I'm sad to know you're a part of Jayhawk Nation.

Rodney Crain 7 years, 6 months ago

Joe check your email, I sent something to you through the site.

Micky Baker 7 years, 6 months ago

You're going to show him where you tried to make peace in private after I tried to do it in the live blog during a game? You see, Joe was there too. He saw that too.

Brian Mellor 7 years, 6 months ago

Jesus, have you thought about taking anger management and/or impulse control classes?

Micky Baker 7 years, 6 months ago

Have you considered that you don't know anything about what has gone on here the past several months? I know you don't know. Get informed.

Joe Ross 7 years, 6 months ago

If the three of us (+Rodney and +Micky) were in a bar watching a game against Mizzou and were surrounded by Tigers fans, I imagine that our differences in these comments sections would dissipate rapidly and we'd all be on one page shortly after tip-off, high-fives included. You guys both have valuable insights to share and bring a high level of passion to the games and issues concerning our programs. With all that gusto, it'd be very cool if a peace could be brokered. Take it from a blockhead who's decided to turn over a new leaf: peace beats the alternative. At the end of the day, I want both of you in my corner.

Micky Baker 7 years, 6 months ago

Joe,

My issue with Rodney is not his opinions on the game and on the team. As I've stated about everyone, not just Rodney, that our fans have not been constructively criticizing the team. There was even a recent article about the trolls that went onto Twitter and began attacking Perry Ellis.

My issue in this article is how one poster said something about not wanting to play Wichita State at their place because it's named after the Koch Brothers. He called it "Right Wing Wacko Arena". That post didn't get removed and in fact it received 10 thumbs up. My post about Obama was removed and flagged by Brett McCabe, and he posted that he did it. Rodney also chimed on me then, but not this time about "Right Wing Wacko Arena". Rodney wouldn't have cared if I said, "I hope the players learn something from a great leader.", nobody would have cared, and it would have as off topic as they said my post was, but my post was negative of Obama, and that's the only reason they cared. Rodney and others hate the Koch Brothers. That's why it got 10 thumbs up instead of flagged for removal.

Plus, I know Brandon Dey and Rodney are the same person, or at least that Rodney Crain was using someone else's account which is a violation of TOS. You've seen some of the posts too. You may not have seen my post about Obama, and if it violated TOS, then a lot of other posts in these forums need to removed that are far worse than I posted about Obama being a fraud, and Rodney knows that a lot of the posts are his.

Rodney Crain 7 years, 6 months ago

You can submit or I can totally up to you. You have everything I have now. Let me know.

Micky Baker 7 years, 6 months ago

So no you're admitting that you're Brandon Dey?

Brandon Dey 7 years, 6 months ago

They confirmed they have received it Rodney. We are all set. Thanks for your help!

Got to catch a red eye to Cincy.

Rodney Crain 7 years, 6 months ago

Wow 72 signatures in less than 24 hours impressive. You were right. Nice Job Mr. Dey!

Brandon Dey 7 years, 6 months ago

97 now. Have you read some of the comments? whoa!

Joe Ross 7 years, 6 months ago

I found this article in support of my viewpoint (answer to Cody above). http://www.kansascity.com/sports/college/big-12/university-of-kansas/article14640722.html

"In Self’s view, the nonconference schedule is a precious commodity. Kansas officials strategically schedule games in fertile recruiting grounds and in big markets where the Jayhawks can expand their brand. During the Self era, Kansas has played nonconference games in Boston, Philadelphia, Washington D.C., Los Angeles and the Bay Area, among other places. In the coming years, they will travel to San Diego State and UNLV, tapping into West Coast markets."

Cody Riedy 7 years, 6 months ago

Thanks for sharing the article on here. Nice overview of the history, Self's thinking and a little bit of a peak behind the scenes. One question I had (for anybody who knows) is this: how far in advance do we make our basketball schedules? Obviously in football, non-con schedules are set years in advance, but I get the impression that with basketball, they don't schedule that far in advance. I ask because it seems like the KU/WSU has only really reached a boiling point in the past 3-4 years that WSU has been on a tear. How quickly could KU actually get them scheduled? Could they get them on next year's schedule or would it have to wait a couple years?

Joe, I guess I still don't see what KU gets out of scheduling WSU. Our schedule is already the strongest in the country and we already have plenty of exposure in the area and access to the few recruits there. Maybe someone can create a bulleted list here, because if you list potential pros and cons for each school, it seems like WSU has much more to gain than KU. And what if WSU is able to sustain this run as an elite mid-major - would KU be helping them by scheduling them? Or what if WSU slips back some. Are we supposed to just wait for the next temporary rise, and whenever WSU reaches it, we just jump to scheduling them and giving them a crack at us?

That said, I see what FANS get out having an annual turf war (as long as it is competitive), but I don't see what "the program" gets. Right now, KU can protect its turf simply by not scheduling WSU. It gives fans more satisfaction to protect our turf by beating them and maybe that's the more noble way to go, but I'm not sure KU shouldn't just take the easier route and take care of itself, which it is doing just fine.

Joe Ross 7 years, 6 months ago

I absolutely agree that WSU has more to gain than KU. But this is not the same thing as saying KU gains nothing. In fact, they would. You correctly point out that KU has a strong schedule. We did the year before that as well, and we were rewarded by the Selection Committee each time. But we aren't going the same teams every year to ensure our strength of schedule. Provided that WSU stays strong, they would help to sustain the kind of scheduling we've been doing. That's one of the things KU gains. Another I mentioned to you in a response above. It's good for fan interest locally. I can't imagine why, all other things being equal, that Kansas fans would not want to see a game against the Shockers. Some of these posts are therefore mind-boggling. The reason why there should be interest is the same reason why there is interest in the game vs. KState: it's an intra-state competition. As we all know, some of the luster has been taken off the KU-KSU "rivalry" because Kansas has been so dominant. From my vantage point I think it's a bit of a shame that we aren't treated to a game against a competitive Wichita State team. Why? Because how many times might we see a clash like this? Historically, WSU has not been great. Now that they are, it's time to schedule them out of local interest, bearing in mind that this is not your father's Shocker team. To make the case against the game I think you have to make the case, contrary to the popular but wrong argument here that WSU benefits more than Kansas, that scheduling them would actually hurt the Jayhawks. Again, the reason why Coach hasn't scheduled them is because of the idea of using non-con games as an advertisement. But one need simply add one more game to the non-con schedule to accomodate the game and there is no harm done to the recruiting plans. We could even scratch one of the useless early-season cupcakes and play WSU instead. To the question of whether or not we strengthen WSU's program by playing them, all the better if we do! Then we can start scheduling them annually and gone will be the mantra of "WSU benefits more than Kansas". Nobody makes that argument, for example, when we play many other DI schools in the non-con.

Joe Ross 7 years, 6 months ago

By the way, most the teams who play Kansas have more to gain than Kansas does by playing them. If you beat us, then that means something. But if we beat you, we are Kansas and we were "supposed to". The case of Wichita State is not special in this regard. There are very few teams aside from Kansas who, if we win against them, put a feather in our cap.

Cody Riedy 7 years, 6 months ago

Maybe I'm just overly worried that scheduling them is acknowledging them as an equal and if they are an equal, that somehow that would be a detriment to us since we share a state, as if there isn't enough resources in the state to support two elite programs. But I guess basketball isn't like football in that whereas KU and K-State have to fight over a limited pool of in-state football talent, etc, KU and WSU don't rely on local recruits in basketball. I still feel KU just doesn't NEED to schedule WSU, but if WSU remains successful, then I could see not scheduling them hurting us as it would appear that we are dodging them. At the end of the day, as with most things, whatever Bill Self says is cool with me.

Joe Ross 7 years, 6 months ago

With all fairness to your point, how many teams on Kansas' schedule have been their equal in the history of its basketball program, and specifically in the last 35 years?

I agree with you about the lack of a need to schedule WSU, per se. But as a fan I feel like Im missing out on one heck of a game. And as you are, from a fan's perspective Im also good with what Coach Self decides is the best for the program. He's a saint in my book. When I advocate for playing WSU I do so as a fan because Im not worthy to hold Coach's clipboard or say with any certainty what we should do or what we shouldn't.

On a final note, sometimes its noteworthy how people disagree...sometimes in a good way, and at other times otherwise. Thanks for an honest and agreeable disagreement.

Micky Baker 7 years, 6 months ago

This, to me, isn't a very compelling case to put them on the schedule. First, we would have to predict when they are good which would mean that we would have to know far enough in advance when games are scheduled because we already have commitments, and had them before Wichita State showed up for their 3 years of being good. That means we would have had to have put someone else on the back burner 4 years ago to have scheduled them last year or this year because we have the home and home series scheduled in advance with other teams. We go to play in events that include UK, Michigan State, Duke, and us. That's the thing that really upset me when their coach called us chickenhawks. We didn't know they were going to be good 3 years ago, and they didn't want to play us until they were good. After they had one really good season, they started talking smack as if we should have dropped our other obligations to play them in the small tiny window that they have a chance to beat us. Wichita State isn't sincere about wanting to play us. It's only because they think they can beat us with the 3 or 4 players they have on their current roster. If they weren't good when this group of juniors they have were freshmen, they wouldn't have ever considered demanding that we put them on the schedule.

Joe Ross 7 years, 6 months ago

Here's the solution, then. Play them for one of the exhibition games. They dont count against the record. The point is, get them on the schedule. It can be done.

But there is another argument for the regular season. Suppose WSU is completely terrible, and a "flash in the pan" as I have seen it written. Okay. In the last several years we've played UCSB, Louisiana Monroe, Southeast Missouri State (SEMO), and Towson. All regular season. These guys aren't exactly powerhouses. The exhibition games preceded them and so Kansas still had the benefit of playing cupcakes to warm up with. Suppose WSU becomes a cupcake after this season as some here are predicting. Then it wouldn't be out of line with scheduling them as we have others, only fan interest is now much, much higher. On the other hand, if WSU is good then we stand to gain in the RPI with a win.

Micky Baker 7 years, 6 months ago

While it is true that we have played some teams that aren't powerhouses, my point is that Wichita State had zero interest in playing us until they thought they had a chance to beat us. Then they expected to neglect the games we already had scheduled or were in the works before they demanded that we agree to schedule them. Sure, we can put them on the schedule now, but after next season, they aren't going to have anything and then they're going to not want to play us. There will be no interest among Shockers fans to play us after Baker, VanVleet, and Cotton are gone. I don't think we should reward them for that.

Joe, my name is Micky. Not Mickey. There is no e in my first name.

Joe Ross 7 years, 6 months ago

Duly noted on the spelling. Will do better.

In point of fact, WSU has had an interest in playing us before they got better. They have ALWAYS wanted to play us.

“I’ll speak for Bill and say it’s probably not in Kansas’ best interest to play Wichita,” Maryland coach Mark Turgeon, a former Wichita State coach and Kansas guard, told The Star last year. “But when I was (at Wichita State), I certainly wanted to (play KU).”

"(Coach Ted) Owens, now retired and living in Oklahoma, said he had some talks with then-Wichita State coach Harry Miller, who coached the Shockers from 1971 to 1978, but a game never materialized."

Under Roy Williams' tenure, WSU wanted to play Kansas, but... "Williams insisted on a two-for-one series, with at least two games at Allen Fieldhouse for every one in Wichita. The Shockers said no."

Source: hyperlinked article pasted in response to Cody Riedy, above.

There is no grounds to assume that they would not want to play us if their program fell. It is clearly demonstrated that they wanted to play us when they were down before but even with the evidence in hand, it is clearly not the point as that is not what is keeping the game from being scheduled.

Micky Baker 7 years, 6 months ago

I think you took this out of context. In 2011 and 2012 they didn't want to play us. Then after the 2013 season, which was successful, then they demanded it in 2014 after the season started. Their coach said that we were chickenhawks. No we're not.

I'll concede that Turgeon wanted to play us. That's not the same thing as Wichita State wanted to play us. Turgeon has ambition. But those that go back to 1990s and 1970s, don't bring that here when you know those had absolutely nothing to do with what I said.

Joe Ross 7 years, 6 months ago

On the contrary, my intent is to answer your assertion squarely without skirting any issue relevant to the discussion. Ill let anyone who is audience to this thread determine for themselves if I have been avoidant.

RE: "Don't bring that here when...".

This is the kind of confrontational beginning I wish to avoid. The verbiage beckons for a fight that Im not willing to give. Secondly, it's accusatory and I have done nothing worthy of it. If we discuss let's keep it respectful, otherwise I am inclined to disengage. If you'd indulge me I'd be most appreciative. Please and thank you.

Micky Baker 7 years, 6 months ago

I didn't mean to imply that you were being avoidant. When I said, "before they were good", I meant the seasons leading up to 2012 when they weren't even on the radar. I didn't hear their then coach calling us chickenhawks then. I believe you know what I meant I when I stated that as well and bring up issues prior to that, well, it was out of context based on the context of which I was writing. They turned on a dime and they weren't talking smack until they made it to the Sweet Sixteen once, implying that we're afraid to play them.

I apologize if I implied that, it was not my intent. I do realize that it's difficult when there isn't several days that go into making these posts. They're in haste and sometimes clarity is lacking.

Joe Ross 7 years, 6 months ago

Bygones are bygones. Let's move forward.

In 07-08, the year Kansas won the NCAA Championship, Greg Marshall was in his first season. He went 11-20.

In 08-09, they improved to .500 (17-17) and lost in the CBI to Stanford.

In 09-10, they went 25-10 and were invited to the NIT. Marshall improved 14 games in the win column over two seasons.

In 10-11, they recorded a 29-8 record, a second place finish in the MoValley conference, and won the NIT.

In 11-12, they won the MoValley, reached no. 14 in the coaches poll, no. 15 in the AP, and were selected a 5-seed in the NCAA tournament.

The period you isolate shows a maturation of a Wichita State team every single year. With much respect, therefore, I do not agree that they "turned on a dime." On the contrary, WSU showed steady improvement over Marshall's first five years that few other teams could boast. But he wasn't done.

The 12-13 year was a continuation of the improvement Marshall brought to Wichita as they won the regular season in their conference outright, advanced to the Final Four, and lost to eventual NCAA tournament champion Louisville.

In 13-14, WSU rose to no. 2 in both national polls, finished the season with an unblemished 31-0 record, won the MoValley conference title, earned a 1-seed in the NCAA tournament, and narrowly lost to vaunted Kentucky by two points.

Their improvement year to year has been steady and Wichita State had to know all along that they were capable of more. With sustained improvement over 7 seasons, there is no reason to assume (as Ive been saying) that WSU will fall off. Freshmen have cycled on to seniors nearly twice under Marshall so its not one class of recruits who were responsible for the effort. So contrary to your assertion, not only do I not know what you meant when you spoke of the "seasons leading up to 2012"; rather, I disagree with the characterization altogether. They were improving impressively in all that time! Again, they didnt improve on a "dime" as you suggest.

Kansas needs to take this team very seriously. They have veterans who have been a part of the greatest run in WSU history, and they could favorably compare their resume against the best in the nation over the last several seasons. They lost to Louisville and Kentucky by 5 points total in the NCAA tournament the last two years.

Simply put, impressive track record.

Micky Baker 7 years, 6 months ago

Joe, I don't think we should take WSU lightly if we play them on Sunday.

My intent was to show that the coaches and fans at Wichita State turned on a dime in their sentiments about wanting us on the schedule. We have played a lot of teams in Wichita State's situation prior to 2013, and I think Self's reasoning for that is sound. He wants to expand KU's brand, because we are one of the top 2 programs in the history of college basketball. James Naismith Court and Naismith Drive along the east side of The Phog is really all that anyone needs to know.

I made this contention because it was unreasonable of their fans and their coach to demand that we forfeit other obligations after they made it to the Sweet 16 two seasons ago. I don't believe that their current coach is being authentic. He didn't take the same tone he did after they reached the Sweet Sixteen that he dad after that. I don't think we should reward him for trying to bait us into a game. It sort of tells me that they think their window of opportunity is small.

And here we go again. I didn't say they improved on a dime, but they did advance further than us for two years in row, and that was on a dime. That level of success was not anticipated, by even their own fans. It was only after that level of success they achieved when their coach referred to us as chicken hawks. I don't see it being sustainable given who they have coming as recruits. They hit one big class, and they were quite lucky at that. Ron Baker played in the same league as my high school does. I knew about that kid for four years before he went to Wichita State and nobody was talking about him being one of the top 20 or 30 guards in the country as a division I basketball player. He wasn't on anyone's radar, and neither was Wichita State on a national level.

You also mentioned in an earlier post about Wichita State turning down a 2 for 1, 2 games at Allen Fieldhouse and one at their place. At that time, their best chance of getting the most money was to play at Allen Fieldhouse. That again gives me another reason to believe that the only want to play us when they think they can beat us, from the perspective of their administration. If they wanted to play us bad enough, 2 for 1 should have been a good deal for them, and it would have actually given them more to gain if they could beat us once in Lawrence and it would put them on the map to a lot of recruits that never consider them.

Calvin Mabry 7 years, 6 months ago

I have a little bit different reason for not wanting to play WSU. I think they are a good team and would stand an excellent chance of beating us if we play Sunday. If that should happen I'd hope they do it with a little more class than the last time they beat us, in 1981. It still grates on me when I remember the giant billboards they posted on the turnpike and other places crowing about the "Battle of New Orleans". I like WSU players but their coach is a chump. He's made more than one snide remark about KU and I think that shows his lack of class and jealousy of KU. They blow and go about how great they are and how KU is afraid of them. KU ducks NOBODY. Every year we have one of the top RPI's in the nation. I think I'm not mistaken when I say KU has won more MVC titles than WSU. When KU was in the MVC they won six titles and WSU has five. they've been in the MVC for what, 35-40 years? KU gains nothing by playing them. If they win it's because they should've and if they lose we'll never hear the end of it from those immature crybabies at WSU. Rock Chalk

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