Kansas State defeats Kansas, 85-82

  • 8 p.m., Feb. 10, 2014
  • Bramlage Coliseum, Manhattan, KS

Tuesday, February 11, 2014

Doomed: Jayhawks lose at K-State in OT

Kansas forward Perry Ellis (34) and his teammates are led off the court as the Kansas State student section celebrates following the Jayhawks' 85-82 overtime loss to Kansas State on Monday, Feb. 10, 2014 at Bramlage Coliseum.

Kansas forward Perry Ellis (34) and his teammates are led off the court as the Kansas State student section celebrates following the Jayhawks' 85-82 overtime loss to Kansas State on Monday, Feb. 10, 2014 at Bramlage Coliseum.


Podcast episode

Press Conferences & Post-Game Interviews

Bill Self after 85-82 overtime loss at Kansas State

Bill Self after 85-82 overtime loss at Kansas State

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Podcast episode

Press Conferences & Post-Game Interviews

Naadir Tharpe and Perry Ellis on KU's overtime loss at K-State

Naadir Tharpe and Perry Ellis on KU's overtime loss at K-State

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Box score

— Nobody confused Bramlage Coliseum for “Allen Fieldhouse West” on Monday night.

Kansas University’s basketball team, which entered 23-2 in the home of the Kansas State Wildcats, fell to KSU, 85-82, in overtime — a somewhat surprising result since the Jayhawks pounded the Cats by 26 points earlier this year in Lawrence.

A sea of fans stormed the court after Conner Frankamp’s last second three dropped through the hoop, cutting the final margin to three points as the Wildcats snapped a six-game losing streak versus the Jayhawks and won their first game in Bramlage over KU since 2011.

“The crowd was great. It was a great atmosphere. It was a fun game to be part of. In my mind the wrong team won,” KU coach Bill Self said after his fourth loss versus KSU against 22 wins.

“It was an entertaining game, a good college game. I just wish we competed a little harder on defense,” Self added.

He thought the Jayhawks were in good shape entering overtime after storming back from a nine-point deficit with under two minutes to play.

“We played catch-up in overtime. We didn’t play well in overtime,” said Self, whose Jayhawks took the lead, 71-69, on a Tarik Black layup but trailed, 75-73, following a three-pointer by Will Spradling and bucket and foul shot by Marcus Foster. 

KU never regained the lead.

“Give them credit,” Self added. “That can be deflating the way we came back against them but they responded well in overtime. They had guys step up and make some plays.”

The Jayhawks trailed, 68-59, with just 1:53 left, but put on a furious rally that managed to tie the game and force overtime, 69-69.

Andrew Wiggins, who missed a three-pointer that could have tied the game with 42.7 left — in fact it was an air ball — put in a stick-back rebound bucket of his own miss at 6.9 seconds to tie the score at 69. KSU was unable to get off a shot on its final possession of regulation.

A hero in forcing OT was Brannen Greene, who first put in a rebound of a miss to cut the gap to 68-63 then stole the ball and scored again to cut the gap to 68-65 with a workable 1:19 left.

“I thought Brannen did some good things,” Self said. “We shot 3-for-17 (from three) and missed 11 free throws. We’ve got to shoot better than that. Brannen did make some plays late,” he added after Greene’s final line read 10 points and five boards with three steals in 15 minutes.

The Wildcats were led by Marcus Foster, who had 20 points (4 of 5 threes) and two assists in 36 minutes. Spradling, who went 2-2 at home versus KU in his career, had 15 points. He hit three of five threes on a night KSU hit eight of 15.

Perry Ellis led the Jayhawks with 19 points and 11 boards. Wiggins had 16 points and five boards, while Naadir Tharpe had 13 points.

Black had eight points and seven boards on a night he sprained the same right ankle he hurt earlier in the year.

“I’m good, though,” Black said after the game. “Somebody fell on it again. You saw I was able to go back out there. I’m fine.”

Joel Embiid had six points and six boards in 18 minutes. Self said the freshman big man is basically “beat up” and needs some time off. Self said he didn’t know if that meant Embiid would miss any games.

“I don’t know. We’re going to re-evaluate and see if he needs a little rest and a little time off. I don’t know how much time,” Self said, indicating Embiid’s back has been bothering him as well as his knee. “There’s nothing structurally there, but he’s beat up. His body ... it’s taken a toll the last two weeks.”

The Jayhawks fell to 18-6 overall and 9-2 in the Big 12; K-State is 17-7, 7-4.

“We just had a lot of defensive lapses,” said Tharpe. “I felt there was a time we’d get the lead and keep it. They didn’t stop. They (Wildcats) were relentless and played the whole game. We didn’t compete at the end.

“They had second-chance rebounds at will. We didn’t get any stops. They played harder than us at times.”

Noted Ellis: “We felt good and energized going into overtime. We just couldn’t get stops at the end of the second half and overtime. This means a lot to Kansas people. We’ve got to move on now.”

Forward  Jamari Traylor dressed for the game but did not play because of disciplinary reasons.

“He ticked me off,” Self said. “Being irresponsible. I think the world of him, but he needed to sit. I don’t know yet,” Self added, asked if Traylor would miss another game. “I’m still evaluating it.”


Suzi Marshall 8 years, 7 months ago

The fact that some of the guys gave it their all and wouldn't let the team down, is what I'm so proud of. Wiggins, Ellis, Black and Greene & Frankamp off the bench all showed plenty of heart.

I wouldn't be surprised to see Self make some changes next Saturday vs. TCU. I bet he will be tempted to put Black back in the starting rotation and provide alot more PT for Greene and Frankamp.

All in all, we still could have made it out with a W had Traylor been available. I hope Self sits him for the next game because his actions resulted in a key loss for the team.

Steve Zimmerman 8 years, 7 months ago

Agreed with your first few statements. But, I don't think Traylor would've made any difference. KSU played high level bball. They were much faster than KU. Good screens, pick and rolls, good 3pt shooters, more physical. We got outhustled this time - but regardless, the positive here is our guys never gave up. And I am happy to see Greene & Frankie got some PT. They both deserve more PT.

Black & Ellis, boooy... they just need to learn how to dunk dunk and dunk - that's all.

Luca Rossi 8 years, 7 months ago

Traylor would have made a HUGE difference. We had no rim protection with Embiid out. Traylor brings some of that to the table with his game.

Armen Kurdian 8 years, 7 months ago

Way too many pick & rolls, they ran the same play on us at least 5 or 6 times leading to open paint and an easy layup. I don't think there's any question that we would have won this game with Embiid playing at full strength, however. He really is the lynchpin of this team. Very, very hard fought game by both sides.

Bryan Mohr 8 years, 7 months ago

Not having Traylor shouldn't be used as the reason for this loss. K-State could just as easily say the game wouldn't have gone into overtime if their key players didn't go down with injuries.

Benz Junque 8 years, 7 months ago

It would have been nice if the players "gave it their all" for more than the last two minutes. And I think the post players did a poor job fighting for position down low for much of the game and left the guards to just try to create something on their own. Poor game all in all.

Benz Junque 8 years, 7 months ago

Lots of guys showed heart the last few minutes. Would have been nice to see the first 35 minutes...

kellerman411 8 years, 7 months ago

I thought we fought hard at the end but overall we had poor energy and that is frustrating for everyone, especially coach. It was a tough game to watch and we're all disappointed. The water cooler will be brutal tomorrow.

I hope no one thinks I'm being sarcastic but do we practice shooting and ball handling in practice? Why can no one in the starting lineup make a shot except Tharpe? Why is Wiggins' handle worse than when he got here? He loses the ball constantly while throwing moves I've seen him do hundreds of times on Youtube.

I'm not suggesting that Bill doesn't know how to coach.. he's forgotten more about the game than I'll ever know but with the recent rule changes, it's apparent to me that the NCAA simply won't allow as many games to be won defensively. You need to be able to score points, simple as that.

Something that occurred to me tonight as I watched the team play is that one key piece of development that happens later in a typical college career is hand strength. These young kids just don't have good hand strength right now. Because of this, they're unable to go strong to the hoop and hang on to rebounds. Embiid was stripped a few times by WILL SPRADLING. If Will Spradling would have tried to strip Withey or T-Rob, he would have went for a ride and never tried it again.

Man I freaking love watching some of the things that he can do but I'm officially on the Wiggins needs to stay bandwagon. He is not ready and it's time to stop kidding ourselves. His length and vertical leap are the ONLY things about him that resemble an NBA guard. His handle is not close and his perimeter shooting is not close. If a guard is not ready but is good enough to get minutes, like Mclemore, you can go to the league and improve from there but honestly after seeing Wiggins dribble the ball, I don't see how he could be effective at the next level at this time. He might get there and disappear like Josh did. He needs to stay one more year, work his but off and then go be the superstar that he can be.

Benz Junque 8 years, 7 months ago

Things such as hand strength are simple mental determination. These guys are playing with a will to win. They look like they played most of game just trying not to lose. The majority of the game they allowed KSU to dictate what offense they were able to run and could not run most of their even basic sets because KSU just pushed them around.

Physically strong; mentally weak.

And don't waste your time hoping that Wiggins will stay. His replacement has already been signed. He is gone. He is just young and needs to develop some skills. I have said this all year, he is the next Paul George. George came out of college with the same physical gifts and the same holes in his game. Wiggins just needs five years to fill those holes like it took George.

Billy Derringer 8 years, 7 months ago

i totally agree with the above post.but the truth is Wiggins has been hyped up so much he wont let the truth affect his pride, an pride can doom kids these days. Wiggins is gone an you can put money on that.

Allin Herring 8 years, 7 months ago

Wiggins is so overrated it hurts. Like everyone said above his dribbling is poor, he can not shoot from outside, he has good moves to the basket and vertical leap (his only superior ability) but he can not finish his shoots as he is just not strong enough. Don't get me wrong he is a good player but a Superior player ready for the NBA he is not!! He has really good games in AFH against inferior teams where his length has an advantage but on the road and against big strong players he is what he is...a freshman who needs several more years developing. He should stay several more years but that will not happen. At this point I wish the NBA draft was this week so he could sign his big contract and be GONE! This kind of NBA mentality is why over the years being at many NBA games I have never nor will I ever spend a dime to see and NBA game. Looking back now at the top freshmen recruits was Wiggins the number one player? Not close! He is the second coming of Josh Selby! I do not believe we will not get a number one seed and may not win the BIG 12 conference. To do this you need a go to player and unfortunately we do not have one on this team! Wiggins was suppose to be but he is far from being that guy. Florida is probably the strongest team to win the National championship and why is that? They start seniors something we do not seem to have anymore. We really missed Joel in there last night but in games where they have big strong players like Texas he just got beat up! The season will come down to the Texas game and will we be strong enough to stop there BIGS?

Brian Mellor 8 years, 7 months ago

You do recall perhaps that last year we started 4 seniors?

Benz Junque 8 years, 7 months ago

Agreed. It doesn't matter what class you are or how much experience you have. the mroe aggressive team almost always wins in college basketball.

Glen Miller 8 years, 7 months ago

Wiggins in not over rated. He was over hyped. The kid is good and it's too good people like you that expect him to be superman that piss me off. I'm sorry, but doggin him and telling him you wish he would just go already makes me sad for you and those around you. Your unhappiness about your life is obviously spilling over into pitiful rants on an 18 year old kid that not in a million years could have met the standards that ALL OF US placed on him before he set foot on campus. If you can't see that this kids is one of the more talented ones to come through here, then you're blind as Stevie Wonder!! Give him a break Mr. Perfect, we can't all be Gods like you are.

Walter Bridges 8 years, 7 months ago

You think we lost the game because of Wiggins? He played through a bad shooting night and still scored 16 including the game tying shot plus he is the best defensive player on the team.

This is an 18 year old kid who will one day mature into a great player...maybe you could be more mature in your posting. instead of whining and berating at a kid who chose Kansas over EVERY other team.

Bryan Mohr 8 years, 7 months ago

A great game by the KSU players and coaching staff. In my opinion, a classless demonstration by the KSU fans and university with the f$#k KU chant. I was surprised that ESPN was televising the chant. Not really surprised that the university officials did nothing to stop it - fitting for KSU. Maybe our society doesn't care about profanity anymore? If that is the case, why is Jeff Orr required to apologize for profanity towards Marcus Smart? A public state university should have more class than Jeff Orr.

Joe Baker 8 years, 7 months ago

Their tasteless fanbase really took away from a great win. I thought that was the chant, but I wanted to ignore what they were chanting. What a stupid way to show sportsmanship. I thought they were obnoxious the entire game. But, when KU dominates the history of the matchups between the two, the hate will show. It just shows their English vocabulary is limited. When you're winning a game, and that's all you have, it's pretty sad. Now, lets see the purple kitty kats do it again and again consistently. The problem is they show for one game of the year and it's against KU and they don't even win the majority of those games. The rushing of the court after barely winning is pretty telling too. They don't win very well at all. I hope they enjoy their win, because I don't see them doing much more.

David Kemp 8 years, 7 months ago

K State will get theirs. They are ok at home but not really that good a team.

Steve Corder 8 years, 7 months ago

You know, Joe, I was in the stands with my family at a KU bowl game appearance a few years back to listen to the "F" bomb dropped by KU students at each kick-off. I was offended, and I was embarrassed that my family (not KU connected) had to witness such classlessness. So, back-off the K-State student remarks. K-State students apparently are taught from the same book as KU students.

Mick Allen 8 years, 7 months ago

"Tear his f-----g head off" on the kickoff is inappropriate, but is directed at the kickoff returner. The classy cats directed their profanity, obscenity at the entire school. Pardon me if I see a difference Steve.

Glen Miller 8 years, 7 months ago

So that means it's ok then... I'm so glad you cleared that up. Every school has it's obnoxious fans... but when the whole section is jumping up and down and screaming it over and over and over again and the administration does nothing and the loud speaker keeps blaring.... that IS a problem.

Dave Cook 8 years, 7 months ago

I find it funny that just 2 days removed from people blasting Mr Orr down in Waco for saying Smart is a "piece of crap" we have the k-state fans chant "F KU"... Major idiots if you ask me.. major.. but Dave Kemp is correct, K-state will get what is due to them like last year .. a very early exit from the tournament.

Andrew Horigan 8 years, 7 months ago

I think everyone is blowing the F KU chant up a little bit. While I was at KU (2006-08 Great years by the way) I heard and saw some terrible things done by KU fans. Spitting on opposing teams' fans, yelling at children, fighting, etc.. Our football crowds especially. Most of the students just used the football games as an excuse to get wasted all day and act like morons. Personally I thought the F KU chant was kind of funny, I was pissed because we lost, but give the fans a break a little bit, they did quiet down and applaud Black once he got up and hobbled off the floor. I'm sure a lot of the older fans with children were embarrassed and annoyed by the chant, but this stuff happens. Classless-probably. Need for apology-No, they will get theirs come tourney time.

Rodney Crain 8 years, 7 months ago

We are a Sweet 16 team at best. Our scoring inconsistency and inability to defend do not bode well for a deep run in the NCAA's. Best seed hope now is a 2.

We have a solid chance for a 10th B12 title but with all the cannibalism in the conference this year I was hoping we could maintain that 2 game cushion going into road games at WV and OK State.

Glad we battled back to get it to OT tonight, but we just do not have the team some days to close out games this year.

Benz Junque 8 years, 7 months ago

Sadly, I agree that the Sweet Sixteen looks to be about the cap for this team. They lack that intensity that teams should have by now. They let more aggressive teams push them around and do not play tough defense AT ALL.

I am fine getting beat because a team is BETTER than KU. It really bothers me when teams win because they are simply more aggressive than KU.

Jack Jones 8 years, 7 months ago

It seems to me that once again our inexperience resulted in inconsistent play at critical points ~ and we didn't handle the speed and quickness of an opponent well, again. Defensively, we are not a typical Bill Self Kansas University team. We are 3/4 into the season and are still looking for a consistent line-up. Fortunately, our depth ~ as inexperienced as they are ~ has allowed us to win some important games and keep us in the Big 12 Championship race. At this point, I feel like the Championship is probably about a 50-50 proposition given the remaining schedule. In terms of the NCAA tournament, we are probably ranked just about right ~ I agree with the Sweet 16 projection, unless we can begin to play to our talent level, rather than our level of inexperience. The Duke game ~ as long ago as it seems ~ is an indication of who we can be. Oh, and what was that about a "strangle hold" on the Big 12 Championship?? Perhaps a journalistic teaching moment??

Joe Baker 8 years, 7 months ago

I think we overlooked kstate. It seems we took them for granted and they showed up to play. It's a bit like KU showed up to a gun fight with a knife and we got shot. They looked flat most of the game. What's really interesting though from this game is how we played like crap and still almost won. If I were a purple kitty, and thank God I'm not, I'd be a bit concerned that my team played arguably their best game and "their hearts out" and still almost lost in OT.

Benz Junque 8 years, 7 months ago

Didn't they just do the same thing two weeks ago against Texas? Maybe the KU players should look at the conference standings instead of their twitter accounts and notice that Texas and K-State are in the top tier of the conference.

Getting a little tired of reading "lack of defensive intensity" comments from the coach. Time to show some heart, boys. Aggressiveness wins games, not talent.

And I doubt they were looking ahead to the home game vs. TCU.

Chris Shaw 8 years, 7 months ago

K-State played great. They had to play really really well to beat Kansas and they did. Kudos to them as well as Foster. Kid is a stud.

I would despite Embiid hurting, Selden Disappearing, Traylor serving his suspension, and Wiggins having his up and down game, KU still had a shot at the win. I thought they were going to win once OT started, but Ellis fouling out hurt.

Bryce Landon 8 years, 7 months ago

The only positives about this loss:

1) We are still alone in first place in the Big 12. 2) K-State still has 20 years to even the score against us in their own building.

Chris Shaw 8 years, 7 months ago

I actually thought Tharpe and Wiggins showed some heart and Moxy down the stretch. I mean, that does say something about a kid who throws up an embarassing air ball and then 30 seconds later tips in his own miss to force OT. I thought Tharpe and Wiggins down the stretch were both positives.

I also feel like Ellis was a positive as well as the bench with Frankamp, Black, and Greene. If the "Superstars" can get on the same page between Wiggins, Embiid, and Selden this team is very difficult to beat.

Benz Junque 8 years, 7 months ago

Tharpe and Wiggins played well the last two minutes of regulation, agreed.

Suzi Marshall 8 years, 7 months ago

You are right about the air ball. To me it shows Wiggins was nervous. Every time I see a close up of his face, I see an infant. He is so young and naïve, playing in a high profile program for a demanding coach takes some serious stones. I’m sure he cherishes the bright lights but it takes some time to adapt.
Wiggins, Embiid (when healthy), and Mason are the only players busting their behinds on D.

Selden is driving me to seek psychiatric treatment. I can’t figure him out at all. He’s been spotty but recently has shown signs of steadying up. Seriously, how can a guy, (about the only one to show up for the UT game) that shows so much progress all over the court just disappear for 28 minutes in a big game?

Bryce Landon 8 years, 7 months ago

Oh wait, there's a third positive: 3) All three of our NCAA championship teams suffered at least one loss to Kansas State.

Joe Baker 8 years, 7 months ago

We'll be fine Bryce. I was a little afraid this would happen. Ol' Bruce wanted this game more than ever so he could have something to hang a hat on during his mediocre career. Here's a little fact for you: Head coach Bruce Weber is 0-5 all-time vs. Kansas and is the only Big 12 team he has yet to defeat in his tenure. He now has his only win against Self. Hopefully his last.

Benz Junque 8 years, 7 months ago

And a fourth positive: 4) Every game that Embiid struggles drives him closer and closer to deciding to stay at Kansas to play next year...

That's three out of four games scoring in single digits. He hasn't done that since his first four games of the year when he was still a bench player.

Luca Rossi 8 years, 7 months ago

RockkChalkk Thoughts:

1) Benching Traylor cost us the game. Its a coaching move that I know probably had to be made but dang, I really believe we win that game if he is playing. Traylor has shown he can be a rim protector at times. We had no presence inside on the defensive end with Embiid out. Traylor also brings energy which our players were severely lacking out there.

2) This year's team is behind the curve of a typical Bill Self squad at this point in the year. Given the team's youth, it makes sense. Its not what us fans want to see, but its reality. They lack consistency. The bad news: We probably only make it into the sweet 16 playing the way they have been. The good news: If coach gets this team to peak at tournament time, they have a good chance of hanging another banner.

3) Mason: he's due for a big game. I'm anxious to see the FM that played so great against Duke earlier in the year. He looked gunshy against KSU. Several times he was open for a three and didn't take the shot. His defense is slipping. He used to be our best on the ball defender. I'm anxious for this funk to shake off him and see the real Frank Mason back out on the court which I predict will be very soon.

4) We're still alone atop the conference standings and have a few easier games ahead. Lets take care of business, get healthy, and start playing like champions out there. RCJH.

Jonathan Allison 8 years, 7 months ago

I disagree with #1. A playing Traylor may have made the difference, but not likely. K-state spread the floor and took advantage that we were switching ball screens.

I got so frustrated down the stretch every time Tharpe switched onto DJ Johnson and he rolled to the basket for an easy 2. Surely that's not what Coach Self wanted. We need to use more discipline than that.

Benz Junque 8 years, 7 months ago

This team does not have a good chance to hang a banner. No team this bad on defense is winning 6 games in the tourney.

And Mason being "due" for a big game just means that Mason has stunk for a pretty long stretch now. He has digressed over the course of conference play.

Mick Allen 8 years, 7 months ago

West Virginia game Mason has 5 assists and no turnovers and scores 5 points on 2 for 4 shooting. How do you define "pretty long stretch now"?

Mick Allen 8 years, 7 months ago

As far as playing both ends of the court, the obvious reference is to lack of defense. Remember HCBS complimented Mason for his defense on Heslip the second half of the Baylor game and for making Staten of WVU work hard for his points Saturday but what does Self know? If you want to be critical of how one plays defense, please include Tharpe, Ellis, Green, Selden and Embiid. Perhaps Embiid gets a pass because he has been beaten down a bit. Once again my question is how do you define "pretty long stretch now".

Suzi Marshall 8 years, 7 months ago

Mick is absolutely correct about Mason. His BU and WVU games were excellent on both sides of the ball. Were it not for Tharpe's scoring one could make a strong argument Mason should be our starting PG. Tharpe's D is reprehensible but we have no real options at this point. CF offers a sliver of hope. He’s shown some grit in his few minutes and strongly suspect Self will give him some extended minutes, 15 or so, vs TCU Saturday. Mason played limited minutes because of this T, IMO. It was a clear message that Self is not going to tolerate any more mindless Ts.

Rodney Crain 8 years, 7 months ago

Sorry Suzi, Mick, Mason is not playing well, he is not the starting PG. He has not had an Excellent game all year. He has had moments, both Horrible, bad, and good. Mason is out of control, he can make really bad decisions, he makes the same mistakes on ball screens over and over. His Plus or Minus has to be heavily minus for us. I think he will get better by next year but he can barely score, barely defend, and is suspect at running the offense. If this is the guy who should start, we are in really really bad shape at this point of the season.

Chris Shaw 8 years, 7 months ago

I don't think Traylor is a make/break for this team. Traylor provides a counterpunch here and there, but he's not a difference maker. It didn't matter this game whether he played or sat. He certainly would have helped in terms of Embiid ailing a bit, but a difference maker? No

Benz Junque 8 years, 7 months ago

He would make a difference when Embiid was out. And he plays well with Black.

Chris Shaw 8 years, 7 months ago

He does play well with Black, but Traylor isn't the difference maker. Traylor could play good or bad, but he's not gonna be the reason KU wins or loses.

Robert Brown 8 years, 7 months ago

It is amazing that whenever we lose or even if we win a close game, some of our fans start complaining about how class-less the other team and it's fans are. There always seems to be derogatory remarks made about the opposing coach which is probably why KU fan are tagged as arrogant. Most fans aren't arrogant, but we are tagged nonetheless.

KSU is the only other team in conference undefeated, so it should not be a surprise we lost. I look at the way the team plays, even in wins, and have concluded they are probably too young to make. Final Four run. But, there are still 8-10 more games before the tournament, so that can change. Besides a deep run in the tournament, the conference streak is now important. KU is still in the driver's seat especially if they win all of their home games.

I find myself thinking about who will return next year, and believe that, at most, Wiggins and Embiid will be gone. Players tend to improve significantly when they stay with the program under Bill Self, so next year could better than this year.

Jonathan Allison 8 years, 7 months ago

Yes, the conference streak is important now. If we protect home court we probably win at least a share because we will hand Texas another loss. A win in Lubbock is no guarantee but I it's more likely than a win in Stillwater or Morgantown after what happened to ISU last night.

Time to regroup for the home stretch.

Bryan Mohr 8 years, 7 months ago

Understand what you're saying, and mostly true. But I've never seen the majority of a university crowd chanting f#%k (the other team) on television. Never. Talk about getting tagged... this game was nationally televised and makes Kansans look like a bunch of irreverent buffoons. What a great example to set for all the young kids watching this game. Bill Snyder is one of the most classy guys in all of college athletics, and I guarantee he was embarrassed by that display. Whether KU won or lost this game, I would have posted the same.

Robert Brown 8 years, 7 months ago

We shouldn't get so sanctimonious. What is the typical KU response to: "Eat em up, eat em up, KSU".

Mike Crosbie 8 years, 7 months ago

Back in the 80's it sh#t...KSU...but I haven't heard it in a LONG time, is it still done ??? Anyone know what traylor did ???

Lance Cheney 8 years, 7 months ago

KSU is not undefeated in the conference. Otherwise they would've been second in the standings, not Texas.

Robert Brown 8 years, 7 months ago

I meant to say undefeated at home. All other schools except KU and KSU have a home conference loss.

Armen Kurdian 8 years, 7 months ago

Even HCBS said the conference winner would probably be 14-4. Gotta win all the home games and take some road wins too. But I agree with many that this team isn't a F4 team yet. We're too reliant on Embiid...not a bad thing in and of itself, but when he's out, we have got to get more perimeter production from the rest of the crew to open up the paint. That's been the best way to beat us, get Embiid in foul trouble or make him a non-factor. If this entire team were to come back next year, we'd probably go unbeaten through the whole year, but chances of that happening are pretty slim, eh?

Jonathan Allison 8 years, 7 months ago

Per usual, we lose a game and all of the "sky is falling" talk cames back, on the Ratings blog we've got the typical Self bashing. Hey! It's not that bad people.

Robert Brown, Suzi and some of the others are good in their assessments. We are still in good shape. We are still in the lead and the team showed some serious heart in the comeback. I put Tharpe right in that mix as well. I continue to be frustrated that Tharpe is our only shot-maker in crunch time. We tried to run some plays for Frankamp and couldn't get him any daylight.

From my vantage point Self is going to be fuming about our defense. We gave them a couple good looks when we were not switching because we went under the screen when we should have gone over. We had a few major defensive breakdowns, but what frustrated me was watching us switch every screen and then K-State immediately exploit the mismatch. Surely Bill Self didn't want Tharpe switching on the a Johnson rolling to the basket. We need to have more discipline defensively and coach will drill that home this week.

Offensively our typical shot-makers were obviously nervous. We missed sooo many wide open looks. Plain and simple, we need Selden and Wiggins to make some open shots. Since nobody could shoot it they just used their perimeter defenders and hounded Ellis on his drives to the hoop and hounded the post entry pass with the backside guard. We have to be able to make them pay for that.

In the second half if was clear that Tharpe recognized that he had to be the shot maker again. And he stepped up to the plate and delivered.

I was very impressed with the furious comeback to force overtime, and still can't fathom how this team was unable to use that momentum and to use KSU's foul trouble to weather away a W in OT.

Benz Junque 8 years, 7 months ago

Wasn't Self fuming about our defense after the Texas game? Haven't we needed Selden and Wiggins to hit open shots ALL YEAR? There's what, eight games left out of 30?

Jonathan Allison 8 years, 7 months ago

8 games left in the second season, but we're playing for the third season. There's still time to get it right. There's still time for these young men to mature. They still get to play in front of hostile crowds in Lubbock, Morgantown, and Stillwater. This will help them to deal with nerves.

Wiggins and Selden have made shots most of the year, and this is a team that is still learning how to play team defense. And Self changes his defensive strategies based on the opponent. So defending KSU and defending UT is two different things. That's why the youth of this team is an issue.

Eight games is a long time for these 18 and 19 year olds. They will continue to learn and continue to game experience and hopefully confidence. Thank goodness we still have 8 games left to get better before the post-season.

Benz Junque 8 years, 7 months ago

Are we significantly better on defense now than we were 8 games ago? I don't know many that would say "yes" to that.

Rodney Crain 8 years, 7 months ago

Per Usual, another "Stick you head in the ground" poster after a loss.

So Jonathan you are fine with the Defense, the lack of team consistency, and our PG play? If we could just make a shot or two, or make some free throws we are fine?

The point is you can not depend on offense to win, you must be able to get stops when you need to. Repeatedly KSU, and TX, scored layups and dunks on us down the stretch and in overtime. This is very concerning for our plans of the 2nd and third seasons. TX, @WV, and @OKS will be very tough games too.

Impressed with the comeback? Where was that effort earlier? We looked like a different team for 2 minutes.

This is not a sky is falling post, it is a Houston we have a problem post. It is possible with just a few games left that we do not win the B12, nor the B12 tourny, and are out in the round of 16. No one will be saying the sky is falling then, what you will hear: Is Joel coming back?, how do you think the new recruits will fit in, will Hunter help us... Talk of next year. I would like to postpone that discussion.

Jonathan Allison 8 years, 7 months ago

We way outplayed KSU in the first half, but only ended up with a 29-29 tie. If we had made some open looks, we'd have owned them.

After the half I felt like we kinda went away from what was getting us good open looks. Our shooters turned down a lot of wide open shots, and forced Tharpe and Elllis to put up a bunch of tough shots. I felt like that allowed KSU to control the second half until the comeback.

Speaking of Ellis, has he lost all faith in his mid-range jump shot? He's a much better player when he can face up and hit the jumper from 17 feet out and doesn't feel like he has to constantly be moving toward the basket. He's as good as it gets at spinning into the lane for a lay-in or a hook shot, but it would be less predictable if he could get back into the face up jumper.

Walter Bridges 8 years, 7 months ago

Good post. I picked that we would go 14 - 4 in conference play and either win the B12 Conference outright or in a tie. This is still a talented team learning as they go and will stumble on the way to the NCAA tournament...

I still like our chances of winning it all.

Michael Leiker 8 years, 7 months ago

This team's ceiling is so low with Wiggins at the 3, it's nice to see some people above coming to grips with the fact that his basketball skills and instincts just simply are not where they need to be to earn 38 minutes at KU. KU has to have another shooter emerge or it's early out in March. Greene should have been in at the 3 early and often last night. Self has got to find a way for Tharpe to get more shots. He's the only player who shoots a reasonable percentage from the field consistently. Wiggins on the wing allows other teams to overplay Tharpe and cover him up. The guy has not shown up in any true contest this team has had all year, save Duke. This team can't afford to have him out there for the highest minutes per game.

Keegan's comments on Wiggins over on the ratings just the same old story. I know defense is important...but his comments basically read, can't shoot, only got 5 boards in 38 minutes, shot 33 percent from the field 50 from the stripe, but played hard, so he's #2 for the game, and a guy who had a double double is 5th. Joke

Ryan Michael 8 years, 7 months ago

I think you are too focused on offense. We didn't lose this game because of offense, shots fall some nights and not others. Self has always been a consistent winning coach because of defense.

Quite honestly, I don't know how Self can justify starting Tharpe. For those fans who only watch the offensive end, he probably seems like a great PG. For those watching the other half, he gives up twice as many points as he scores (in layups no less). Unless Tharpe can figure out how to play defense even remotely well, I really don't see us getting anywhere in the tournament. His man is either wide open for a 3, or running right past him to the rim for an easy layup on virtually every single play. Teams are just scouting it now, and it's only going to get worse with no Embiid to clean up Tharpes messes down low.

Jonathan Allison 8 years, 7 months ago

Tharpe gave up some easy buckets, sure. But Coach needs to drill it into these guys that they can't switch Tharpe onto the opposing big who is rolling to the hoop. Tharpe needs to stick to his man as much as possible. We can't keep switching into a mismatch. Big man should hedge the screen and recover to his man, unless Self is afraid of his hedging big to get in foul trouble. Tharpe should stick to his assignment. We'll see if Self continues to switch ball screens going forward, especially against UT.

Ryan Michael 8 years, 7 months ago

I understand what you are getting at, but I ask one thing... Watch the film again and slow it down a bit. You'll notice that our team doesn't switch the same way when Frankamp/Mason/Selden are on the opposing PG. Why? Because that's how they HAVE to play to make up for Tharpes defensive weakness. Frankamp/Mason/Selden all fight through their screens and stick to their man for the most part... Tharpe does not.

You know how Tharpe ends up getting stuck on a rolling big? Because Tharpe completely lost his assignment and a big had to cover him out of necessity, not because they chose to give up their own man. Honestly, I've never seen a KU PG struggle so much to get around a screen and literally lose his man completely like Tharpe has this year. Half the fouls on our bigs this year have come from them trying to stop Tharpes man because Tharpe can't keep up with them.

To add to that frustration, there were at least 2 plays last night where Tharpe was caught just standing around watching a KSU player drive to the lane while Tharpes assignment ran to the corner for a wide open shot. And Tharpe was still at the top of the key just being a spectator. It was a piss poor performance to say the least.

Rodney Crain 8 years, 7 months ago

Agree 100% Ryan, great post. Jonathan is missing the reality of Tharpe's weakness at such a critical position on the court. Tharpe and Mason got caught flat footed against KS on back door cuts, Tharpe looks a step or two slower, even thought he isn't. He seems confused on how to play ball screens and teams just pick us apart cause the defense failed at the PG position. He plays terrible defense, from positioning to following the ball.

Shane Johnston 8 years, 7 months ago

Couldn't agree more with Ryan's about Tharpe. And actually, you could almost say the same about Perry for his defense. I have felt that way about both since the Bahamas but both are just too good offensively and among our most experienced players. Before the season Self said something to the effect of Naadir being the most critical piece of this team. Now, you could almost make the same case for Embiid because, when healthy, he can cover up so many defensive mistakes.

As much as we give Naadir a hard time for the defense, he has a chance to be a really special point guard. I don't know if we've had a point guard in a long time who shoots threes and distributes as well as he CAN. He's better than EJ, Tyshawn, Sherron, and Rus Rob in that way. In terms of offensive efficiency, he's kind of like a senior year version of Aaron Miles but better at creating his own shot. Defensively, though...he's a mess.

Benz Junque 8 years, 7 months ago

Kansas would have 10-12 losses on the season without Wiggins' defense. He's the only consistently good defender KU has this year. This is the worst defensive team that Self has had for a long time.

Mick Allen 8 years, 7 months ago

I agree wholeheartedly with Benz's comment.

Jim Stauffer 8 years, 7 months ago

I understand the observation that KSU had more energy than we did. What must be also understood is they played at home and the crowd spurred them on. The reason home and away is greater for this team than other KU teams is the youth.

Wiggins missed how many free throws? Don't try to tell me the atmosphere does not affect these kids. It clearly did. What is confused with lack of energy is actually a tension that prevents free play and movement and causes one to be a step slow. We were one step behind all night.

The key for us is still to hold serve and beat either WVU or OSU on the road. Everything else should be a win.

Benz Junque 8 years, 7 months ago

They play in front of sold out screaming people every game. That's nothing new to them. I am talking about fighting for position, fighting to stay close to the guy you're defending.

“We just had a lot of defensive lapses,” said Tharpe. “I felt there was a time we’d get the lead and keep it. They didn’t stop. They (Wildcats) were relentless and played the whole game. We didn’t compete at the end.

Tharpe basically said that KSU played hard the whole game and KU didn't. KU players just expected that KSU would fade away and did nothing to actually MAKE it happen.

Walter Bridges 8 years, 7 months ago

While I agree that the KSU crowd effected the outcome, we still came out flat. KU normally has quieted the KSU fans by halftime. I also think you are confusing tension for pressure. Pressure caused KU to lose to SDSU at home..NOT tension.

If Kansas cannot handle the pressure of a hostile environment then we might as well right off going to Stillwater and Morgantown or really any chance of making a deep run into the NCAA.

Terry N Tom Denner 8 years, 7 months ago

One and out Wiggins could transfer to Kentucky where he can just stare at the DOLLAR SIGNS when some NBA Scout comes to watch him. That is about the only time he shows his stuff and out plays himself. Bench him for the remainder of the season.

Chris Shaw 8 years, 7 months ago

Tharpe IMO has to find a way to find that balance between Wiggins and Selden's inconsistencies. It's a very tough dynamic to find.

I think the large significant gap between Selden's good play and bad play is a big concern for this team. When Selden is playing well there are no concerns. Even when Wiggins isn't playing well and missing shots...he is still impacting the game in so many ways.

Selden can not say the same when he is playing bad/poorly. This was the Florida game all over for him again. He virtually disappeared this game. If Selden can shrink that gap between his good/bad play that will take the pressure off of Wiggins and Tharpe especially Tharpe.

Ethan Berger 8 years, 7 months ago

Is the season over? Are we the only team in the NCAA that is struggling? I'll try to address some of the concerns.

1) Tharpe is the best point guard on this team. He isn't a good defender, but his offense makes up for that, when he gets it going. Starting Mason over Tharpe might fare a little better on defense but would have huge ramifications on offense.

2) We might only be a sweet 16 team, we might be a 1st round out. We might catch fire and make it all the way. The tourney is about match ups. So let's not start predicting our early exits yet. The 2012 team was a "Sweet 16 team at best." Oooops

  1. The over use of the word heart. This team played with heart. If they didn't play with heart, they would have gotten blown out. This team however didn't play intense. With young teams, that is going to happen a bit. Teams that come out swinging will intimidate them. You get tougher by the lumps you take. The 07/08 team was tough because of the lumps they took. Every team we lost to that played tough had much worse lumps then us.

  2. Embiid has not been the same since that injury and Selden was a no show. Our whole team just preformed bad. It's easy to look at 6 losses and become upset, but remember we do have 18 wins.

  3. It all starts in March. Every game is a teaching opportunity. To act like our players won't learn is an insult to their intelligence. I will take you to the most recent UCONN title team. That team lost a bunch of games. Wasn't even in discussion for possible title team. Heck before the conf tourney, they were a bubble team. They get on a hot streak and then win 11 to end the year. Kemba was not a good defender but was heck of an offense player. This team has a lot of room to grow. It's obvious that their weakness in coming out with intensity every night. That will take care of itself in this year or the next. You don't learn who you are by your victories, you learn through defeat. If we somehow win it all, these loses will seem worth it.

Shane Johnston 8 years, 7 months ago

Yes, the tournament is about match ups. But if Will Spradling is a mismatch, we are in trouble. And we have less flexibility at point than at any other position. It's no coincidence that our best stretch of the season was when our rim protector was at his best.

I can buy the learn through losing argument to some extent, but you have to be concerned about the way we're losing games. We closed better last night than we have all year, but the way we've lost the last two have been concerning. The Coaching staff has to do a better job getting the guys ready to play.

You can write it off by saying the whole team just performed bad, but we are the deepest team in college basketball right now. By a long shot. And the most talented. The whole team performed bad a Texas, too. Do you know how hard it is for that many talented players to play poorly on the same night even once? Sure there are flashes and good halves by individuals, but forget everything else- the new goal for the remainder of the conference season should be to play one complete basketball game.

Glen Miller 8 years, 7 months ago

  1. Perry Ellis, while a good player is too much finesse and not enough big. He's our starting 4 and he cannot finish at the rim. He looks like a ballerina half the time. I get that he's all about angles and positioning, but that dunk he missed last night was solely missed because he was expecting contact and did not take it hard at the rim. I have seen those types of plays more than once. I know a lot of you will not say it, but man up down there Perry! You've got to be more physical.

  2. Tharpe is a liability on D. He's not big and fast enough to make a difference on that end. It's slowly been getting worse and worse and when he has to chase a guy around like he has lately, he is pretty much ineffective on offense with his shot and starts to let the ball stick in his hands on offense. I know that guys are going to be worn out, in years past we have been able to run our offense through our point because he's been more conditioned than our opponents. Na's fatigue is starting to show.

  3. Embiid has some physical play thrown at him and the injuries and fatigue are showing that he's not quite there yet physically (which he's a 7 foot freshman, I don't expect him to be). Teams with bigger bodies like Baylor and Texas have been his kryptonite this season. He's going to have that type of play thrown his way come tournament time and in those games, I think Black should start.

  4. Our defense is not going to get to that elite level we are used to this season, and that's ok. We need to realize that and sharpen up our offense because we can be elite there if we tighten up a few things. Our defense can be good, but our youth and lack of time in Self's system is limiting us there.

  5. Wiggins has GOT to finish better. Finger rolls and floaters and that crap annoys me so much. Throw it down son.... I guarantee if you flush one on them a time or two, they won't get in your away the next time. Being aggressive isn't just looking for your shot, it's finishing your shot and you've missed out on points this year because you cannot finish half the time.

  6. Selden makes at least one bone head play at the worst possible time too often. Throwing it to no one, or losing his man on defense because he goes under a screen, or shooting a 3 that is highly contested. He can be so good, yet so bad in the times that we can't afford it.

We still are an elite team and we still have a chance at a special season here. I just think that they get a pass because they are young. They are 3/4 of the way into the season now. They know what to expect and whats expected of them. I will no longer give them a pass and I'm sure Bill will not either. They are learning and that's fine, they should always be learning.... it's time to put up or shut up! Get tough, feed the beast and play with reckless abandon. We have got to play like we have nothing to lose. When we play with a free mind, we are unstoppable. This is just the way I see things right now. Rock Chalk and I'm out!!

Margaret Schadler 8 years, 7 months ago

The problem is NOT this team; for a team that is mostly freshmen, they are really good. Does anyone else remember that last year we lost all our starters? I think 4 or 5 the year before, Remember that two years ago, we did not do well recruiting: lost two guys who didn't qualify, had two who could only practice one semester but not play.
OK, I,'m spoiled. I thought that if Calipari could take 5 one and dones and win a championship, so could Self. The reality is that This team is doing really well all things considered: last year both Texas and Ohio state sunk with a boatload of freshmen; the team with the BEST recruiting class is rated 22nd; KU is 7th. Furthermore, this is considered a bumper year for recruits.
So I remind myself that it doesn't matter what 5 are on the floor, none played that much last year. Hudy hasn't had much time with that bunch of bean poles. We played against two bruisers in the middle and a senior dropping in 3s in a building as loud and hostle as ours is friendly. They played like freshmen: young and and out"manned".

Shane Johnston 8 years, 7 months ago

Fine, but It's not fair to blame the freshmen / lack of experience for the defense. The freshmen are SAVING our defense. Those issues start with Naadir and Perry.

Nick Rushton 8 years, 7 months ago

Top 3 Reasons we lost the game in order of importance: (1) BAD defense (correctable) (2) Missed free throws (correctable) (3) Octagon of Goons' home court advantage (won't be an issue in the tourney)

Shane Johnston 8 years, 7 months ago

It wasn't too long ago we would have seasons where we'd win with an average margin of victory of 20 points a game. This team needs to internalize some of the elitism that comes with Kansas basketball. There are five banners hanging in the rafters. Wilt Chamberlain played on this court. The rules of basketball are right inside the door. Every one of these players deserves to be a part of that tradition and share the court with each other. What they should be angry about is having to share the court with K-State and West Virginia and ANYBODY ELSE who laces up opposite them. Even the "good" teams like SDSU and Villanova. I'll give Duke and Florida a pass.

Steve Brown 8 years, 7 months ago

In '88 we lost bad game to KState in Allen, we looked DOA. Came back and had a nice run. Caught some breaks no doubt, hey Larry has SMU rolling. Nice!

Seems to me we lost to State in '08. Maybe a good omen.

Can we close out this league championship with so many guys banged up, guys have to play the game the right way! Like your hair is on fire and they have come to rape and pillage your homes. Intensity.

If we make it out of the first weekend, a question for sure, I pray we ram up against WICHITA STATE SHOCKERS in the elite eight. Talk about a money game!

Chris Shaw 8 years, 7 months ago

That's what people said in 2011 against VCU. How did that work out?

Rodney Crain 8 years, 7 months ago

If we do not shore up our defense, WSU will beat us by double digits going away. They have not really played anybody recently but they are playing a complete game and would give us fits the way we are playing right now.

Benz Junque 8 years, 7 months ago

Wichita State would beat Kansas right now. Kansas needs to avoid teams that play aggressive, physical defense. Their success in the tourney rests on two things; learning to play mroe aggressively and getting breaks to avoid those types of teams in the bracket.

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