Tuesday, July 24, 2012

Rivalry revived: Will loss of MU be Showdown’s gain?

Kansas State football coach Bill Snyder addresses the press at Big 12 media days on Monday in Dallas.

Kansas State football coach Bill Snyder addresses the press at Big 12 media days on Monday in Dallas.



Associated Press

Kansas State football coach Bill Snyder addresses the press at Big 12 media days on Monday in Dallas.

— Opinions are mixed when talking to Kansas State folks about the ways in which the absence of Missouri from the Big 12 might change the Sunflower Showdown with Kansas University.

But the man whose word always seems to carry the most weight in Manhattan believes the rivalry will grow.

“I don’t think in terms of rivalries, personally,” K-State coach Bill Snyder said at Monday’s Big 12 media days. “And it’s not just another game. I’m wise enough to understand that. But, as it relates to the fan base, I think the answer is, yes. I think that probably enhances the rivalry a great deal, particularly for (KU). I think K-State people have always seen it that way.”

Although it began with a 16-0 KU victory in October of 1902 — 11 years after the Jayhawks’ first game against bitter Border War rival, Missouri — the showdown between Kansas and Kansas State has remained rather cordial throughout the years.

The reasons are plentiful and certainly vary but tend to come back to the fact that, with KU and Missouri, there was true hatred that dated back to the Civil War days. With KU and K-State, the relationship was always more like battling brothers than boiling enemies.

With the Tigers now competing in the SEC and the Jayhawks vowing to keep them off the schedule for the foreseeable future, the void must be filled. As Snyder mentioned, K-State fans for years have viewed KU as their biggest rival. Now the purple people down the road in Manhattan might begin to see a little extra attention.

“It’s definitely gonna grow bigger,” K-State junior and Olathe North grad Tre Walker said, “first of all because we’re in-state rivals. You talk to a KU player, they can’t stand us. You talk to a K-State player, we can’t stand them. The thing is, I love it. I love that atmosphere. I love the rivalry. I love what it means to the state of Kansas. This is gonna be big. This could very well become a Texas-Oklahoma rivalry, so that’s why we get excited about it.”

The Jayhawks own a 65-39-5 advantage in head-to-head meetings but have lost three straight games by a combined score of 135-38. That, too, is one of the reasons the rivalry has never really popped. In more recent years, the Sunflower Showdown has been marked by mismatched programs beating the tar out of each other instead of close games that seem to be fiery and intense no matter the records.

Though they stopped short of saying it, the Wildcats on Monday made it clear that they’d like to see the Sunflower Showdown become more of an annual highlight for both sides.

“I definitely think it already holds a little more weight than some of our other games,” said junior safety Ty Zimmerman, who was the starting quarterback for the Junction City squad that topped Free State High in the 2008 Class 6A state title game. “And, with Missouri gone, there will probably be a little change in the attitude and the atmosphere. A little more hostile. But as a player, you want that. Everybody gets up for that game.”

While some K-State officials said such a change might not be noticed for five or even 10 years, Walker, who grew up closer to KU’s campus than K-State’s, said he already had seen evidence of the tide turning.

“I think it will change overnight,” Walker said. “We already have various KU fans turning the corner, saying, ‘OK, Missouri’s gone, so now we’ve gotta turn our attention to K-State.’ I feel that. Most definitely.”

Added senior linebacker Arthur Brown, who hails from Wichita: “Since Missouri has left, the rivalry may expand just by itself.”

Does that mean it will get uglier?

“A lot of people like that,” Brown added. “It brings a lot of attention. I’m not sure how it’s all gonna play out, but it’s definitely a possibility.”


madamhawk 9 years, 9 months ago

"Does that mean it will get uglier?". The only thing getting uglier is the heffers visiting the 4H barns in Manhattan.

Sorry...that was mean. I shouldn't take my frustration for the Royals losing AGAIN out on the little brothers of the west. I'm following nuleaf's advice and not watching anymore!

shadrac11 9 years, 9 months ago

Clever, the heffer is your coach. Here's to hanging another 59 on you ladies.

Saguaro_Jayhawk 9 years, 9 months ago

I'm not sure which other conference team could be the primary rival of Kansas. Although KSU has recently focused on Iowa State especially for football, KSU seems to be the logical one for Kansas.

When I was a student, the KSU-Kansas rivalry was fun, mainly a time for the 2 fan bases to party before and after the games. But I never felt it had the sense of urgency like the moo games did. The Jayhawks went 4-0 vs the kittens then, so that likely dulled any edge to it.

ahpersecoachingexperience 9 years, 9 months ago

Is it true that the NCAA considered putting Turner Gill in charge of football operations at Penn State as a punishment?

Bville Hawk 9 years, 9 months ago

The "Slow Death by Incompetence" rule of punishment. I like it.

KGphoto 9 years, 9 months ago

The NCAA has no reason to punish Gill.

Sam Constance 9 years, 9 months ago

Punishment? He should only be so lucky to get a head coaching job at a reputable school like Penn State. Even in their current state, it would be the best job he will ever get.

And given his commitment to moral fiber, he would also be somewhat uniquely "qualified" to lead them out of this controversy. :-)

(okay, I have to stop--it feels like I'm generating bad juju for football season...)

OKHawkFan 9 years, 9 months ago

That's Hilarious!! I totally agree it's more egregious that KU only won 5 games in two season under Gill than the years of abuse that was going on to children at PSU. Still finding ways to bash Gill huh ahpers?? Well Played!!

Jack Brooks 9 years, 9 months ago

This article just shows how K-Staters are screaming for KU's undivided attention. We should claim TCU or WVU as our new top rival just to piss Kansas State fan off.

squawkhawk 9 years, 9 months ago

Just remember, to be a rival you have to win a few games. Do you honestly think that KU will beat TCU or WVU any more times than the few times we've beaten KSU in the past decade?

april28 9 years, 9 months ago

It isn't much of a rivalry when the Purple Plague destroys us for basically twenty years straight. We have no more excuses now that our real rival rejoined Dixie. We better start bringin' it.

kellerman411 9 years, 9 months ago

Kansas State, home of the 230 pound brunette and bar fights between drunk cowboys and soldiers.

sporty 9 years, 9 months ago

Don't talk about your girlfriend like that!

Michael Pannacciulli 9 years, 9 months ago

Summer doldrums...

Can't wait for kickoff of the new season

Robert Brown 9 years, 9 months ago

The juvenile comments amaze me. Of course, for this rivalry to intensify, KU needs to be more competitive. Anyone under the age of 30 has witnessed K-State domination in football. I agree with Matt's statement that the rivalry is like brothers competing. You always want to beat your brother, but more often than not, want your brother to well against other opponents. If K-State is playing Texas or OU or playing in a bowl, I cheer for them while I never cheered for MU. I would imagine if many people here would say that K-State is their second favorite conference team.

danette8084 9 years, 9 months ago


There are very few real rivalries in sports where there is genuine hatred between both fans. I want to win, and I don't give a hoot for the opponent. Yea, it's nice to beat K-State, but I want them to do well as they too represent the state in which I was born.

KGphoto 9 years, 9 months ago

I wonder if NC State was rooting for North Carolina last march in the Elite 8 matchup. Probably, but what a bitter pill that must have been. I'm sure part of them would be happy, and part angry no matter who went to the Final Four.

jhox 9 years, 9 months ago

The University of Missery is dead to me so, no question about it, my dislike will now be focused mostly on K State. It's time to step it up in football and wipe that smug look off of Snyder's face..

squawkhawk 9 years, 9 months ago

Well, unfortunately for KU fans Snyder has earned that smug look.

troutsee 9 years, 9 months ago

We should never play MU again unless we are forced to do so via a bowl committment.

KGphoto 9 years, 9 months ago

Would be kind of cool to turn that bowl down, with a finger up.

Robert Brock 9 years, 9 months ago

I guess the question is, "will Bill Snyder live long enough to see a K-State/KU rivalry?"

shadrac11 9 years, 9 months ago

This is true, because he absolutely owns you all right now.

Bradly Moore 9 years, 9 months ago

You people have to stop calling them "brothers". I live in western Kansas, and those sheep molesters hate KU more than anything. I can't see how anyone could EVER root for them. If they are playing Missoura, I am sorry, I root for the tiggers. The belt buckles are the worst fans I have ever seen. Pleas turn all of your hate toward the kitties.

tical523 9 years, 9 months ago

Totally agree, I grew up in Junction City (right next to Manhattan) and K-State fans absolutely hate KU. I have said for many years that most State fans would rather KU lose than KSU win any given day, I have seen it for years. I know I am biased but most KU fans poke fun at State but State fans poke hatred at KU and there are many reasons for it in their minds (out of state students, city slickers,snobs/ beautiful people). Our hatred was always towards Mizzou, kind of sucks to see it gone.

Sam Constance 9 years, 9 months ago

Where's the 'thumbs down' button?

I don't care how ignorant or how much of a little brother syndrome KSU fans have, I'd root for my fellow Kansans--even obnoxious, pay-attention-to-me ones like the Wildcats--over anyone from Missourah.

It's true that a lot of Western Kansans (de facto KSU fans) have a chip on their shoulder--about Western v. Eastern Kansas, about Wildcats vs. Jayhawks, and so on--but they are still Kansans.

Plus, if we find the pathetic "hatred" from Manhattan stupid (which it is), then shouldn't we be above it? Why return it in kind and make ourselves just like them?

sporty 9 years, 9 months ago

K-State is inferior to no one. If there is fanbase more obnoxious than mu, it is ku. Actually, the most obnoxious ku fans are the ones that did not even go to the school. I have quite a few friends that graduated from ku and they are all pretty level headed.

Sam Constance 9 years, 9 months ago

Thanks for proving my point, Mr. Created-A-Profile-To-Cry-About-How-Not-Inferior-KSU-Is-To-Anyone.

By the way, I saw some of your other comments when I looked at your profile, so I have to say...

It's a stretch to even call Kansas State a "university" given it's lack of a law school or medical school. How can you possibly say that KSU is a better overall university than Kansas with a straight face? Next I suppose you'll tell me all about how KSU has more Rhodes Scholars than KU...

It's okay though, we can settle this quite easily with the US News & World Report public university rankings:

Kansas #46 Kansas State #73

See how it's not even close? You are as close to being outside the top 100 as you are to KU.

actorman 9 years, 9 months ago

"K-State is inferior to no one."

Hence the many championship trophies on display.

Oh, I'm sorry, you were clearly referring to academia, right?

shadrac11 9 years, 9 months ago

Nice try limp wrister, back to your domestic relationship and your obvious envy of a clean program. I just hope the jhoax can field a competetive team this year, blanked two years in a row would solidify you as the worst D1 football program in country currently!!

actorman 9 years, 9 months ago

Gay-bashing is always a classy retort. I'm surprised you could take enough time away from being glued to Fox News to post here.

Jeremy Bolinger 9 years, 9 months ago

Never truly hated KSU, but I've always hated their fan base. With the exception of Missouri, I can't think of a dumber fan base. I can't bring it in me I hate Bill Snyder though. I've tried and tried.

tical523 9 years, 9 months ago

Yep, it is not the coaches or university but the fans are so annoying. They have an inferiority complex issue like a little brother who wants to prove that they belong, when really they have good athletics and university but lack self confidence like they always have to prove something.

sporty 9 years, 9 months ago

The same could be said about ku....

actorman 9 years, 9 months ago

Well said, but I would add one caveat:

I actually don't consider Misuse's fan base to be that dumb; I think of them more as evil (not to mention completely delusional).

notjustbread 9 years, 9 months ago

"This could very well become a Texas-Oklahoma rivalry, so that’s why we get excited about it.” was said by some Wildcat showing they have no clue about the national scale rivalries. The revenue from the OU TX game each year is more than K-state makes in a season of games.

Travis Shinkle 9 years, 9 months ago

I think our "most hated rival" (to borrow a term from the University of Iowa crowd) should be Iowa State. I mean, really, who likes cyclones?!? NO ONE, especially ones who has a quasi-cardinal as it's mascot!

Like others, I can't hate Bill Snyder (but that stupid mascot of theirs is another story) for what he has done which includes forcing KU to WANT to compete on the football field. Back in the "good ol' days" when both KU and K-State sucked at football, nobody cared. Now, because the Kitty Kats are going to bowl games and are ranked, KU is spending the money and wanting to be more than a basketball school.

Also, like many others have said: we should never play that dump school in Columbia, Missouri ever again. Period. By the way, isn't it great to see Colorado back on our basketball schedule?!?

shadrac11 9 years, 9 months ago

Stupid mascot, yours is a fictitous bird, nothing is dumber than that!!

actorman 9 years, 9 months ago

You're right, nothing is dumber than a fictitious bird with historical roots to the Civil War. Apparently you're too dumb to realize that the Jayhawk has tremendous significance in history.

But then what else can you expect from someone with as generic a mascot as KSUck has.

KUfanInFlorida 9 years, 9 months ago

I don't know I think Missouri was more of a rivalry than K-state. I wish they could schedule a border war game as a non conference schedule.

milwaukeeJAYHAWK 9 years, 9 months ago

I think the KU-KSU rivalry will grow, but it's hard to hate K-State the way we hated MU. The K-State fanbase is largely a class group. I grew up among many K-Staters in central KS, and they are a far cry from the MU fanbase, which has a wayyyy higher proportion of methed-out confederate flag waving morons.

Guess MU fits right in with the Confederacy. Good riddance.

Bring on K-State!

milwaukeeJAYHAWK 9 years, 9 months ago

Oh, and I agree with the above posters that K-State hates KU wayyyy more. They have little brother syndrome, which is understandable.

machinegun 9 years, 9 months ago

Keep this in mind. When we played Missouri, K-State fans cheered for Missouri with very few exceptions. When we played K-State, the Missouri fans cheered for K-State.

The last time we were competitive against K-State it was really fun partly because of Coach Mangino's former ties to K-State. Now that we have Coach Charlie Weis and his dynamic pro-style offense, we will rekindle the rivalry and push Coach Snyder right back into retirement.

Jeremy Bolinger 9 years, 9 months ago

No sh!t? I'm in then! To hell with Kansas State!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

shadrac11 9 years, 9 months ago

Keep dreaming, you have hired your second straight loser and will be back begging for donations for another buyout in 3 years.Here is to an epic beatdown in Manhappiness this year.

Marcia Parsons 9 years, 9 months ago

I have too many great friends who went to K-State to hate them. We jab at each other, but none of us ever goes over the line to cause hard feelings. I guess I always considered it a friendly competition. It didn't make me want to win any less, but I didn't foam at the mouth. With MU, not so much.

Hieronymous2012 9 years, 9 months ago

Regarding a rivalry with K-State, these intra-state rivalries are something between tiresome and pathetic. Even though having been raised within 15 miles of Manhattan, I myself can work up no interest and mostly wish the boring K-State fans would get some sort of life. It would be far better if the two schools were in different conferences, but alas that is not to be. The biggest concern I had with the recent conference re-alignment talks was the notion that K. U. and K-State were some how permanently linked together. Imagine, the two schools wandering off into oblivion hand in hand, bucolic Bobbsey Twins. How depressing.

Fototherapist 9 years, 9 months ago

K-state fans want the rivalry more than KU fans. Over the past few years, I've seen K-state fans become increasingly hateful, rude, and just plain stupid with their love for all things purple. It's the only thing they have to hang their hat on, and it just burns them up to know their basketball program has been and always will be inferior to KU's. I thought it was hilarious when they posted that Debate national championship banner on I-70. Classic.

sporty 9 years, 9 months ago

Actually, K-State fans just want a semi competitive team to play. ku hasn't had one for a while. Your bball program may be better, but that is it. ku enrollment is decreasing while K-State continues to increase. That debate National Championship that you mock, just goes to show that K-State is an all around better University. Not just a basketball school.

actorman 9 years, 9 months ago

So let me understand this, sporty: One debate national championship is the equivalent of KU's five (which places KU behind only Northwestern, Dartmouth and Harvard)? I suppose if you're using KSUck math that makes sense.

It must be exhausting constantly trying to compare your school to one that is so obviously superior in virtually every way.

I haven't checked the numbers, but assuming you're right about enrollment, that probably has more to do with affordability than anything else.

sporty 9 years, 9 months ago

Nice comeback. At least you are "smart" enough to realize that you have no answer to my comment. Good job, ralster!

jhox 9 years, 9 months ago

Another reason to hate K-State. They were the purple albatross around our neck that nearly cost us entry into another BCS conference when it looked like the Big 12 was going to fold. Our state leaders didn't want the schools broken up, and it nearly cost us dearly.

I've not been to a game at MU in quite a few years, but I've been to a couple of football games when we played in Manhatten recently, and I was treated like crap. Had one young drunk kid do his best to start a fight, because I was wearing a KU shirt. Luckily his girlfriend pulled him away. He would have been an easy drunk he could hardly stand up. Fortunately, we beat them that day. He wanted to take his drunken frustrations out on someone. He wasn't the only one who said inappropriate things to me as I left the stadium that day. I should point out that I was minding my own business, not saying a thing.

I've seen our fans act that way toward Missery fans before, so I know it goes on at our place as well, but I've always looked at KSU as the poor step sister and have reserved my real hatred for that Benedict Arnold school. But no more...

danmoore 9 years, 9 months ago

I’m buying it! Half the equation for a good rivalry is already in place. They despise us so all we need to do is reciprocate. I may not hate K-State at the moment but I can learn to loathe and detest them if you give me a chance.

danmoore 9 years, 9 months ago

P.S. Besides, they're better at basketball and football than MU so it raises the bar.

texashawk10 9 years, 9 months ago

There's this...

and this...

Unfortunately the other Ecokat video has been made private which sucks because now we can't make fun of it.

squawkhawk 9 years, 9 months ago

I've read all the comments above and just have to shake my head over how stupid many of our fans come across. Our fans talk about KSU like it is an inferior school when in reality it is not. They have strong academic programs and boast a lot of national scholarship recipients year-in and year-out. Their enrollment is growing and ours is declining...what is that all about? The recent acquisition of NBAF in Manhattan will help them elevate their research efforts and status in the academic community and continue to help them grow.

Regarding sports, how can any single KU fan talk about KSU as being our "little brother" when they have dominated us in just about every sport, other than BB, for the past 5 years? To me this simply sounds like sour grapes and arrogance. And we wonder why KSU fans seem to hate us more than them? Perhaps we should look inward before casting outward.

Phoghorn 9 years, 9 months ago

We all know that you are a KSU guy. Stop trying to astroturph as a KU fan.

sporty 9 years, 9 months ago

You are the smartest Ku fan there is. Everything you said is true. I don't hate KU. It is in our states best interest to have 2 thriving universities. Heck, missouri, which has a much bigger population that Kansas can only support 1 major D1 school. Each of our schools has something to offer. Most of the banter, I hope, is all in good , cross-state spirit!

sporty 9 years, 9 months ago

ku has not raised their standards yet. It takes the same grades, act score, etc to get into either university. Nice try, though. Same cost, same standards.

ku_foaf 9 years, 9 months ago

KU and K-State generally get the same amount of money from the state. I am pretty sure KU get more private donations, as it has the bigger Endowment....

In the late 80s/early 90s, I believe, KU had to increase out-of-state tuition to curb the influx of students from Illinois and Missouri. Lots of KU students came from Chicago and St. Louis suburbs. This was because the school couldn't handle the number of students, and purposely decreased them. If the Lawrence campus got much over 25,000 students, there was concern over capacity. I just read KU has over 26,000 students, but that includes the Edwards Campus. Total is over 29,000 with KC and Wichita campuses.

I just saw K-State was about 18,000 then, now 23,000.

You are obviously not a KU fan.

squawkhawk 9 years, 9 months ago

There is a quote from some movie that goes something like this, "You want the truth? You can't stand the truth." It is what it is, you can either accept it or you can continue to bury your head in the sand and act like nothing is wrong. There is plenty wrong at KU these days.

sporty 9 years, 9 months ago

Rock chalk has got to be the dumbest chant on earth....I guess it goes with your ugly cheerleaders and idiotic mascot. Your envy of K-State isn't very becoming. Hey, at least you are a fan of a school that usually has a good basketball team. Not much else, but that is a start!!

Phoghorn 9 years, 9 months ago

Methinks that Ms. Angelovich could make a great Snorg Tees model!

madamhawk 9 years, 9 months ago

Ralster is on a helluva roll!

"He rocks ruff and stuff with his afro puffs. RAGE - rock on wit yo bad self!"

ku_foaf 9 years, 9 months ago

Matt Tait,

I am going to disagree with you here. I do not believe the intense rivalry between KU and MU really stems from the Civil War.

I was a student in the early 80s. The Civil War aspect was not even mentioned. There was even a bar not far off campus called Quantrill's. This seemed to spring into common claim as the main reason for the rivalry in 2007. I think it has more to do KU and MU being big basketball rivals in the 60s, 70s and 80s. It more often than not came down to KU or MU as the Big 8 Champion.

As far as using the Civil War as the reason, most people are probably not that familiar with the history. It was extremely ugly and bloody in both states. Within each state's borders, neighbors killed neighbors. Redleg leader (later Senator) Jim Lane extracted some pretty harsh revenge after the Lawrence raid, and some of it was on civilians. He was in Lawrence during the 1863 raid and barely escaped. It was a civil war, just like Bosnia and Vietnam, and it was awful. People were killed just because of the perception they supported the other side. People in Western Missouri remember Jim Lane and Wild Bill Hickok the same way people in Kansas remember Quantrill and Bloody Bill Anderson.

People could be very surprised which side of that war their families supported. Many if not most Kansas settlers came from Missouri - after the Civil War. Western Missouri was settled by people from KY and VA primarily.

The Border War is very interesting and shocking, as so many things happened in the areas around Lawrence and Kansas City. I found out most of this through genealogy research. Don't mean to preach, but it is a pretty fascinating subject to me.

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