Sunday, November 20, 2011

Seattle prep commits to KU basketball, but …


The way Seattle combo guard Anrio Adams sees it, he will be playing basketball at Kansas University next season.

“I made a verbal commitment to Kansas today,” Adams, a 6-foot-3, 185-pound senior out of Rainier Beach High, told the Journal-World on Saturday night. “I have to take my SAT first. If I pass the SAT and my classes, I should get in without a problem.”

KU coaches cannot comment on recruiting in accordance with NCAA rules. It is believed the Jayhawk coaches will not accept any Adams commitment until he has qualified academically.

The unranked player, whose godfather is Bull Stewart, dad of former KU guard Rodrick Stewart, said Saturday he chose KU over finalists Washington, Baylor, UCLA and Louisville. He also heard from Arizona, LSU and Georgetown.

“KU is a wonderful program that gets players to the next level. It’s a great program that fits my game,” Adams told the J-W. He also spoke to various other websites Saturday, reiterating that he plans to play at KU.

Adams, who has attended three high schools, went to Seattle’s Garfield High a year ago. He planned to transfer to St. Patrick High in New Jersey for his senior year, but changed his mind and now is at Rainier, the alma mater of former KU guard Stewart.

“I watched him play in the pro league last summer with guys like Nate Robinson. He averaged 17 a game. He did great,” said Rainier coach Mike Bethea, who confirmed that Adams committed to KU Saturday.

“He is almost a carbon copy of Dwyane Wade. Last year in high school, in one game he sat out a quarter and still got 45 (points). He can play either guard position,” Bethea added.

Many recruiting analysts believed Adams had reclassified into the recruiting Class of 2013, thus his status as an unranked player. It’s believed he will wind up in the top 100 in the Class of 2012. reports he’ll take the SAT on Dec. 3.

“I picked Kansas because I felt they fit my style of play and they love to play defense,” Adams told “The school is great and it’s a basketball state. I wanted the best situation to give me the opportunity to compete equally for a starting position. The coaches are great. The fan base is heavy and I am ready for next year.

“Although I didn’t play in the camps this summer, I was home studying the game. I trained and watched game footage of Michael Jordan all summer. This is my life! This is what I want to do!” he added to the website.

KU’s Class of 2012 consists of forward Perry Ellis (Wichita), Landen Lucas (Portland) and Zach Peters (Plano, Texas). KU will have one scholarship to award if junior Thomas Robinson, as expected, turns pro after the season. KU would have two to give if sophomre Justin Wesley returns to walk-on status. He is on scholarship this year after transferring from Lamar. The Jayhawks are awaiting word from Andrew White, a 6-6, 210-pound senior from Miller School in Chester, Va. He has a list of KU, West Virginia, Richmond, Texas, Louisville and Georgetown.

Here’s’s scouting report on Anrio Adams: “Adams has lengthy frame with long arms, and he’s very athletic. He uses his quickness, strength, and bounce to blow by opponents in transition as he makes his way to the rim. He can take contact while finishing and he plays at a relentless pace. He is geared for scoring and he can do it in a variety of ways. Whether it is nailing the 3-point shot or scoring off the dribble in traffic he can put points up in a hurry.

“As far as weaknesses ... Adams is an elite scorer, but far too often he hunts shots and forces the action when the play is not there. As a result he becomes a volume scorer and turnover prone. He has 3-point range on his shot, but it’s very streaky and he needs to get on balance more often. He loves to compete, but he allows his emotions to get the best of him too much.

“The bottom line is ... Adams is one of the better scoring guards in the country. He can score in bunches and he’s an intense competitor. However, his game needs to mature as he plays too fast far too often. In addition, he has allowed his emotions to get the best of him - thus causing him to lose focus at critical parts of the game.”


Scott MacWilliams 10 years, 6 months ago

Well, looks like a promising project for the staff, if he is indeed recruited and signed. The comments by the anonymous Mr. aren't entirely comforting, to say the least. Sounds a bit like the volatility of TT to me. But I've got faith the the staff will know how to get the most out of his skills.


yates33333 10 years, 6 months ago

I don't know if you've seen him play or watched clips of his play on the internet, but he does remind you of TT, and to my way of thinking that's good news. He will be on a team where he doesn't need to be the immediate leader or perhaps ever the leader. He has bounce, speed, quickness, a better shot than TT, and some rebounding presences. He can become a prime asset.

jaybate 10 years, 6 months ago


Better than recruiting gurus!

Coherent. Thx.

yates33333 10 years, 6 months ago

jb lives!! I was reading where some thought you had expired.

actorman 10 years, 6 months ago

I was wondering the same thing. You'd think they'd want to keep the same friends throughout high school and be comfortable in one place. It's amazing how many of them go to multiple schools.

canson 10 years, 6 months ago

Didn't former Kansas and then Gonzaga player Micah Downs go to four different high schools? Seem as I recall that so transferring is nothing new.

Tony Bandle 10 years, 6 months ago

Unfortunately, Ben Mac's high school here in St.Louis closed before he graduated so off to a prep school he went...we all know the rest of the story.

If Wellston would have stayed open, Ben would be playing today....tough break.

Joe Baker 10 years, 6 months ago

They go to the other schools for max exposure, competition and instruction from some of the most experienced coaches. A doctor doesn't just stay in one hospital doing the same old procedures. Rather, they get out nationally and internationally to learn from the best in their fields. They enhance their skills and promote their area of expertise. They help improve the quality of lives, medically.

It gives the recruit the opportunity to meet other players and test his skills against some of the best in the naiton, not just the state of Washington. I'd say it's a great idea on the part of the player but unfortunately, the stupid ncaa and clearing house don't see it that way. They penalize kids for trying to enhance their game at these other locations.

He wants to bring all his skills and experience to KU. He wants to be in a competitive conference and a team that will further expand his potential to the next level. I'd say he's a pretty smart kid that is trying to be the best in all areas of his life. If Stuart's family is involved, he's a terrific kid. He reminds me of Collins, TT and hate to say it, but it's a compliment, John Wall. He verbally committed to KU over UConn and zona, take that zona. I guess Calhoun didn't offer him the premium package to UConn, ha ha.

johnnyphoton 10 years, 6 months ago

Wouldn't every program like to have a mild-tempered, athletically gifted scoring machine who expresses his or her desire to play at the next level, all the while understanding that lock-down defense is the ticket to the dance? Oh, and yeah, this person is able to carry a 3.0 or above? I get the lack of enthusiasm, but there's only so many triple-A rated studs out there.

yates33333 10 years, 6 months ago

This comment made me think of Oscar Robertson. Know any recruit like Oscar?

Ben Simonett 10 years, 6 months ago

Zach Peters is still in the rankings albeit at #144.

I agree with you though, hes definitely a better talent then what his ranking would indicate, the recruiting sites just havent seen him play recently so when they see improvement in other players ranked below him he gets moved down the list.

Out of all the low ranked recruits Self has signed recently Peters is the one guy i give him a pass on, bringing in Peters is a strategic move to increase our position with Julius Randle.

Joe Baker 10 years, 6 months ago

Peters has been working out for the last few years with Marcus Aguire. He's going to bring some special skills to KU and the B12.

Joe Baker 10 years, 6 months ago

We also have a guard from Prestonwood in 2014 also interested in KU. Peters could be a junior, Randall a soph and this kid a freshman. We could have three of the starting varsity players at KU at the same time. This is exciting.

Michael Bratisax 10 years, 6 months ago

Zack Peters was out of the top 100 BEFORE he stopped playing AAU ball this May.

AAU without doubt helps kids move up OR down the rankings but I don't believe it holds near the weight that you seem to believe. wanting to play at the next level should play AAU ball for the experience not for rankings.

The same holds true for early commits. I can't count the number of times I've heard someone say that committing in their sophomore or junior year will drop you in the rankings because you're no longer being recruited or evaluated. If the above were true, no one would commit early and everyone would play AAU.

And I completely disagree that the rankings are only legitimate for the 'top 10 or so guys' or that '3-star, 4-star ratings don't really tell you whether or not a prospect is good or good enough, just how much exposure he's got to scouts.'

You can check the Top 25 for 2014 now and I'm willing to bet 75% or more will be four stars are better when their class become freshmen in college.

Michael Bratisax 10 years, 6 months ago

Okay, consistent. That is what you said but it doesn't change my rebuttal. It is clear where our different opinions start. I believe those kids are ranked according to talent and you (if I am wrong tell me) believe it is because of exposure to scouts, coaches, etc with both of us at least believing the top 10 or so are ranked close to where they should be. I'll concede that exposure, AAU and the all above does make a difference just not nearly as much as you believe.

trustyourSelf 10 years, 6 months ago

I'm thrilled we got another guard for next year (probably) even if he is a bit of a project.
He's watching Michael Jordan footage?? I guess that isn't that crazy since Jordan is Jordan, but that seems like such a strange thing to say.

Michael Bratisax 10 years, 6 months ago

Do you really think that's the true reason for not playing AAU ball? I guess we should take him at his word but studying MJ isn't going to improve your play near as much as playing against some of the best talent over the summer...unless (maybe?) it is the same footage used by opposing coaches imo.

More likely a girlfriend or just needed some down time. Between school, AAU, recruiting and everything else it can be grinding

LAJayhawk 10 years, 6 months ago

"Easily correctable by a good coach."

Exactly what I was thinking. Even if it's not corrected through practice, the bench is a sure fire way to reduce it...

In the end, he sounds aggressive, which is, honestly, unteachable. I would MUCH rather have a kid that is overly aggressive and whom needs to be reined in rather than a kid who is timid and you have to stick him with a cattle prod to get any offense out. Again, you can't teach desire.

Some may point to BRush as a "laid back" example. Even though BRush is an exception to rule, he did still have a desire to score, and even so, look at how much Self had to hound him his entire career to be aggressive. Reining in a competitive and confident kid is considerably more preferred than prodding an apprehensive one.

AZHawk72 10 years, 6 months ago

Adams sounds absolutely wild, an academic "maybe," and a "give me the ball, please, I can do it." And he wants to be here to learn how to be better at defense.

He is everything I wanted Henry and Selby to be. Good luck on your college entrance tests because we want you.

And maybe White, too! At this rate, I won't be able to rip our recruiting of late. This group could end up with a stunning uptick.

Way to go Coach and your assistants!

Now, back to surviving this year. Good luck on the islands.

Mike Barnhart 10 years, 6 months ago

Yipee! A dimwitted ball hog. Here's hoping his alarm clock fails and he misses his SAT exam.

lee3022 10 years, 6 months ago

Perhaps you would be more satisfied with going elsewhere and rooting against some other team. This site might not be a good match.

Kye Clark 10 years, 6 months ago

Posted this on another article when rumors of this kid signing started popping up:

Just kind of begs the question: did Self learn nothing from Braedon Anderson, Jamari Traylor, & Ben McLemore? First Landen Lucas and his 3 schools, now this kid. They may all be great kids and good basketball players, and I'm not judging them in that regard. But is this what KU basketball recruiting has come to? Signing a bunch of 3 star talent (BMac notwithstanding), hoping they are cleared to play, then hoping Self & Co. can coach them up, all the while trying to convince ourselves this is what we really want - a bunch of kids who are guaranteed to stick around 3-4 years and hoping they eventually blossom into solid pieces of the whole. You can call this an arrogant, spoiled attitude to have if you want, but it doesn't make it any less true: we are KU, we shouldn't have to be reaching like this.

Also, someone mentioned the possible effect this has on White. Well, none really. But say we do land White. What this does then is take us out of the running for Shabazz, as even if we take Justin Wesley's scholarship back we wouldn't have any more left to offer. Which I understand many insiders consider signing Shabazz a long shot, but to me its a referendum on the state of KU recruiting when you take yourself out of the running for the #1 ranked recruit in the land who has at least some interest in us before he even makes an official visit, all to offer a scholarship to someone who most certainly will have eligibility issues. Maybe Self has heard from White's camp that he's not coming here, in which case this isn't as curious, at least not on the scholarship situation. Regardless, this is the second kid this month that I've felt is a reach too early.

Ben Simonett 10 years, 6 months ago

i agree with every thing in this post.... NAILED IT!

Mark Lindrud 10 years, 6 months ago

When I said I wanted a guard I was thinking someone like Nino Jackson because we need a stud PG personally. The kid sounds athletic and aggressive, which is good, but can you say redshirt? I get the feeling we will miss out on Shabazz, but if we can get White and Jackson I would be very happy with this class. How many scholarships we have left?

Joe Baker 10 years, 6 months ago

I think this kid pretty much takes Jackson out of the picture. I don't see Self giving up White or Shabaaz for Jackson. I say we have a great chance for White and a fair chance at Shabaaz.

texashawk10 10 years, 6 months ago

Nino is not going to qualify academically and is likely headed to a prep school or JuCo because of his grades.

Andy Hess 10 years, 6 months ago

we don't stand a chance with Shabazz. despite what he says, anyone who knows anything about his recruitment knows that it's likely down to Kentucky and UCLA.

Joe Baker 10 years, 6 months ago

swish- We do have a strong chance at Shaabaz. If uk has an nba exit, uk would fit his style at this point. He would fill a huge void with Jones, Lamb, possibly Teague and mostly Gilchrist leaving for the nba. He is a Cal type OAD. UCLA would be his West coach option that is closest to Vegas.

I think at this point, Shabaaz is waiting for the nba to settle the age, OAD issue. If they change things, he jumps to the nba. If not, I think he sees what happens to uk. If uk doesn't lose the key players mentioned, I think KU would be his next option.

Bee Bee 10 years, 6 months ago

Amen, ICTHAWKFAN. Duke, Carolina and UK are blowing us out of the water in recruiting. Why do we have to, REACH for players that might be okay in a year or two? We should be getting 4 and 5 stars all day long. This isnt football!!!

Ben Simonett 10 years, 6 months ago

"Many recruiting analysts believed Adams had reclassified into the recruiting Class of 2013, thus his status as an unranked player. It’s believed he will wind up in the top 100 in the Class of 2012. "

If this truly were the case he would be ranked in the 2013 class, which he isn't!

Expected to wind up in the top 100? By who? his AAU coach and his mom?

So what we have here is ANOTHER low/unranked kid with blatant eligibility issues.

This is a testament to how far Self and staff have slipped in their recruiting. 4-5 years ago this kid wouldn't have even been looked at, let alone talked to.

@HEM, Im kinda curious to see if the homers come out in waves for the predictable "someone just committed" drunken aura even for a kid with obvious academic concerns, this should be a fun case study.

Ben Simonett 10 years, 6 months ago

I retract my questioning of his athletic ability, from what I've seen on youtube the kid has a quick first step and I can see him being a 50-70ish recruit.

I do think that first step is not quick enough to outweigh the academic issues however

lee3022 10 years, 6 months ago

Homers or alumni. Perhaps both see the coaching staff as far more competent than we are likely to see you without any credentials. If you had been around KU the past 8 years you would have seen the top coaching staff in the country in consistency and excellence combined. The only slippage is in the quality of postings here.

The article says the academics are a per-qualification to a signing with KU. This is a commitment based upon a good score on the SAT. That should alleviate any concerns by the NCAA. Give the staff some credit for knowing what they are doing. The sky is NOT falling, CL.

Ben Simonett 10 years, 6 months ago

I never claim to know more than the coaching staff and have never asked anyone to take my opinions as anything more than that..... opinion.

I simply try to not let my bias as a fan influence my opinion. this is something that is apparently a cardinal sin to some members of the fan base.

I have witnessed the coaching staff operating at that "best in the country level". but its definitely not firing on all cylinders right now.

jhawkinhogcountry 10 years, 6 months ago

Where are we at with Nino Jackson?? I know he was really high on us. Seems he would be a better fit.

Alex Berger 10 years, 6 months ago

Except he keeps rising in the ratings of every recruiting service.

Chris Shaw 10 years, 6 months ago

Nobody knows anything about Nino! He's trying to get his grades in order. Nobody has really heard from him since he played at the Jayhawk Invitational in the Spring. He skipped the summer circuit and there are rumors ( Rumors) that he may reclassify to 2013. Again, who really knows?

Kye Clark 10 years, 6 months ago

From the rumors I've heard, it is highly unlikely he is going to academically qualify.

Michael Bratisax 10 years, 6 months ago

He is definitely NOT overrated..this kid can play but I think his problems are academics. He would be a much better fit.

Chris Shaw 10 years, 6 months ago

I remember this from last summer! I remember Mascott talking about him on thsshiver and him really liking KU. Then....................didn't hear much more from the kid until the rumors 2 days ago.

This is my thought about KU recruiting and I follow it pretty closely...............I have no freaking idea what's next, what's about to come, who's next in line, or whom would be the best fit for KU's roster. No freaking idea!

With that said, I think fans are just as confused as I am at the moment. LOL! I think we are going to have complainers, negative nancies and I also think we are going to have praisers and positive penny's!

This is the only thing I know at the moment and this is simply my opinion. I am not a big fan of the OAD's, but if the OAD's can stay two years (Harrison Barnes, Terrence Jones, Sullinger) then I think it's a positive. You know, I think Calipari has a system and niche that works, but I think it's very difficult to mesh and blend experienced players and system that Bill Self is trying to run with OAD type players. I would really like to say that KU and Self do a good job in this department, but looking back at the X and Selby experiment............I'm not a big fan of those results.

I'm not ready to take the ICThawkfan and or BennyBob's stance, but I certainly understand it. For me, I think the fair thing to do is let this all play out and see what happens with this case study (As Bennybob would say). I'm really hoping guys like Peters and Adams can prove the rankings and scout services wrong because of their absence from the summer AAU circuit.

The good thing about this case study is that I think it does have ending and it could be positive or negative. I honestly think we will know without a doubt in 2-4 years whether or not 2011 and 2012 was a grabbing at angels type of philosophy or Self truly knew what he was doing.

At the moment I'm a little confused, but all I can do is support and hope it works out in the future.

Ben Simonett 10 years, 6 months ago


I reading this as an omen that disappointing news is coming from the Andrew White camp.

A commitment from a similar guard days after you were expecting to hear from White? coincidence?

Your thoughts?

Chris Shaw 10 years, 6 months ago

I have no freaking clue, Bennybob! This is the strangest year and a half in recruiting I've seen. And, I don't mean that in a negative way. Just weird.

just two years ago (Selby's Class) you had all these high profile recruits literally wait till the last possbile minute (Almost the start of the school year for their freshman year of college) to make their decision and now.................all these recruits have decided that deiciding "Early" is the way to go.

I definitely think last year (2011) all of the "Early" commits surprised Self and staff a little because they are always known for grabbing "Late" commits, but I think they are still a little rattled from that shift.

I have no idea about White! I thought the most realisitc and logical choice would be to have signed with G-Town or KU by last Wednesday, but that didn't happen. If he waits till Spring.............I'm not getting my hopes up. Also, I've heard this crazy rumor that he post dated his letter of intent so he can sign it in or week or two? I don't know Bennybob, it's become quite a feat just to get a guy not speaking of Perry Ellis just to get someone high profile to sign.

Again, not saying that the high profile guys are the way to go, but definitely a little frustrating. The only reason I feel this is because Tarc was the line for me in the sand.

Andy Hess 10 years, 6 months ago

"similar guard"? Do you even know what position Andrew White plays? He's a 6'7" small forward, and nothing like a 6'3" shooting guard.

Ben Simonett 10 years, 6 months ago

White will the play the 2 in college,

part of the reason he's ranked so high is because he is 6'7"

so yes adams and white are "similar" in the sense that they will both fill the same role at KU

Alex Berger 10 years, 6 months ago

He will not play a 2. He plays post right now and is projected at 3 or hybrid 4.

Alex Berger 10 years, 6 months ago

Nvm, got my players mixed up. Either way, In college ball a pg can play sg, and a sg can play sf. I don't think Andrew White will be too worried about possibly having to beat someone for playing time. That's at any good D-1 program.

REHawk 10 years, 6 months ago

bennybob, what is your prediction on our league finish this year and next?

Ben Simonett 10 years, 6 months ago

50/50 weather or not we beat out Baylor to win it this year.

Its to early to make a call on conference standings next season because you don't know what the rosters of all the teams will look like next year.

but just looking at the projected KU roster next year, its going to be a struggle. our two best players are going to be freshmen(Ellis, Mclemore). Although I havent ruled out EJs potential to put it all together and be the stud we all thought he could be.

Chris Shaw 10 years, 6 months ago

I will say this about rankings! There is a lull and a downperiod with rankings. I believe they updated rankings for most of the scouting services in Mid-September. I don't think they update those rankings again until the new year sometime (Jan or Feb or possibly early March).

I'm defending Adams or Peters, but I do know kids do get lost in schuffle. I remember Turner, McLemore, Andrew White, were very low ranked kids at one time and then Boom......................they were in the Top 50.

I won't lie, it will be interesting to follow this Adams kid and see where he ends up in the rankings when the new ones are releases. I wonder if "KU" will have an impact by these so called guru's in his next jump?

Chris Shaw 10 years, 6 months ago

Meant to say, "I'm not defending Adams or Peters"...........................

lee3022 10 years, 6 months ago

You mean the so called guru plagiarizes? Of course the experts are not smart enough to really understand why coaches sign Adams type players but considering the other offers he had it is pretty clear who is being stupid here.

We do not need to defend anyone coach signs. His record does a great job.

Chris Shaw 10 years, 6 months ago

One other thing ladies and gents. I would put Shabazz out of your minds! Not because KU won't get him, but the chances are slim. Look, I want to see Shabazz in the crimson and blue just like everybody else, but this kid is pretty unique and I'm not going to sweat over him.

He is so freaking good he's about as good as an "Automatic" as I've seen. With that said, if he chooses KU, I will be shocked and welcome him with open arms, but I'm seriously not going to waste any energy on this kid. He's got so many people in his ear.................his decision could change every 5 minutes. I'm not going to get sucked up in his recruitment.

Tony Bandle 10 years, 6 months ago

Another Kentucky one and's just a matter of negotiating the final price.

Michael Luby 10 years, 6 months ago

I dont really have an opinion on this guy. Know absolutely nothing about him. Anyone have a good link to a FREE ranking/scouting site ?
Im not totally sold on the fact that we need Adams in the first place. We will have Batman ( Tharpe) and the Flash ( Elijah ) Next season and we are getting Conner Frankamp (sp?) Plus Im sure there is someone else Im missing.
On Ellis, according to Coach Self he can play spots 2 - 5. We will be very packed at the forward spot next season for sure. We wont be hurting in our back court either. This year is a rebuilding year for certain. We may or may not win the Conf title or champ and we will most likely get a tough schedule in the big dance and make a 2nd or 3rd round exit. Its ok though, Im a fan til the end. Next season we will be preseason top 10 and we just might be able to notch another final four.

Kye Clark 10 years, 6 months ago

Just a minor point of clarification, but Frankamp is not coming in next year. He's only a junior, class of 2013.

Jack Wilson 10 years, 6 months ago

So far on this thread and from the article, we have multiple ominous bits of information. 1. Three high schools. 2. “I have to take my SAT first. If I pass the SAT and my classes, I should get in without a problem.” Emphasis on "should." 3. Not ranked. 4. "Hunts shots" 5."Turnover prone" 6. "Forces the action when the play is not there" 7. "He allows his emotions to get the best of him too much"; "he has allowed his emotions to get the best of him - thus causing him to lose focus at critical parts of the game.” 8. “Although I didn’t play in the camps this summer, I was home studying the game. I trained and watched game footage of Michael Jordan all summer." 8. A poster above said he reminded them of of TT.

Positives. 1. Hunts shots. 2. Likely will be ranked when reclassified to 2012 class. 3. "Adams is one of the better scoring guards in the country. He can score in bunches ..." 4. "he’s an intense competitor." 5. "He is almost a carbon copy of Dwyane Wade. Last year in high school, in one game he sat out a quarter and still got 45 (points). He can play either guard position,” 6. “I picked Kansas because I felt they fit my style of play and they love to play defense" 7. "I wanted the best situation to give me the opportunity to compete equally for a starting position."

Some thoughts: 1. This is the after-effect of Selby. Self was "honest" with Trevor Lacey and told him he wouldn't play much because of Selby. Lacey was put on the back burner. We then made a late run at Lacey in April but it was too late. Self made the mistake of assuming that Selby was returning. I am beginning to believe that Selby deceived Self, and led Self into believing he'd be back (pure speculation, but just trying to get to a reason why Self would think he'd return). It was apparent to everyone it seemed that Selby was a one and done. Nearly every #1 ranked player is. But Self said he was caught off guard by Selby's decision. And Lacey's comments last spring indicated clearly that Self thought Selby would return. 2. I am continually stunned how some folks .. AZHawk72 in this case .. can really actually be excited about this type of development. I say this type of development because we've seen the absolute euphoria from some over Anderson, Traylor, and even Lindsay. And most recently Lucas. Compare this guy to Lacey .. or Lacey types .. and you are excited? 3. I would suggest a better response is tempered skepticism. Meaning, we don't need to trash the possible signing, but there is absolutely no reason to think it is a positive ... yet. Any guys in this category ... Traylor, Lucas, et. al. ... purely wait and see.

Jack Wilson 10 years, 6 months ago

(cont) 4. But we can be concerned by the pattern. That's legit, I think. A reminder that a pattern is not disproven by the exception. So the signing of Ellis doesn't change anything over the past two years. We have Ellis, top 30 guy. McLemore, ranked around 50, Tharpe in the 80s ... and then the slew of guys that we rationalize should be ranked higher ... Anderson, Traylor, Lindsey, Young, Lucas, Peters, Adams. That is stud at MU. Or KSU. Not at KU. Change out Angelo Chol for Anderson, Tarc for Lucas, and Lacey for Adams, and we're not having this conversation. Or trade out a 40-75 ranked player for any of those three, right? A reasonable fall back plan. 5. And to discount rankings, again, is to simply defy reality. I hate to revisit this all the time. The arguments against the validity of rankings assumes that the rankings profess perfection. They don't. But they are an excellent assessment/guide of the type of college player you might get. See Kentucky last Tuesday for "Exhibit A." And see the last 10 years of final four teams. I saw KonkeyDong say that "Yes, obviously the very best players are going to be consistently rated very highly, but once you get out of the top 10 or so guys, assessments vary wildly, and the 3-star, 4-star ratings don't really tell you whether or not a prospect is good or good enough, just how much exposure he's got to scouts." I'm sorry .. I respect folks' opinions. But comments like this have no credibility -- brought on by either just an ignorance of how rankings are done and the work related to it, or the desire to rationalize our situation. One question .. do you think that the folks doing the rankings talk to college coaches such as Self, and get their opinions on kids, too? 6. To the bigger picture ... Is Self purposefullly taking this path to lower ranked recruits, or is this being forced upon him? That is the question I've seen posed in different ways on this message board. It seems clear that it is being forced upon him. Peters was an early commit, so that's a bit different. But it can't be disputed that Self is pursuing the top guys, and getting rejected. And yes, everyone gets rejected. But our fall back positions are much lower than other elite programs. We're going from Tarc .. top 15-20 guy, to a fringe top 150 (Lucas). That's the issue. We're going from Trevor Lacey to Anrio Adams (I know, different recruiting years .. but where is the the better combo guard in this class?). I've posted this link before. Espn insider, but you can get the point.

Michael Bratisax 10 years, 6 months ago

Really glad to have a more articulate discussion of the rankings than I posted earlier.

Believing that the rankings are only legit for those in the top 10 or that for the rest it is exposure to scouts and not for performance is to ignore the concrete evidence shown by the level of success these kids have during their college careers.

Obviosly, the rankings aren't infallible. Some will not meet expectations while others will exceed.

Does anybody really believe that the current Jayhawks could ever be better than the 2008 championship team?

Jackson and Kuan played like mid-level players should play their freshman year and by 2008 showed what a well coached player with their talent could grow to be. With the three 5 star players..same thing.

If you could make a team from this years an include all the recruits from 2012 and having the same limit of players, I still don't see a combo that could beat the 2008 team.

Michael Bratisax 10 years, 6 months ago

You're looking for absolutes and that can't be done.

No way would Mario have been a 5 star recruit without playing AAU ball. Alaska is not regularly recruited by many coaches.

But at the same time, if he had not played well no matter how much exposure he received, he would not have been a 5 star recruit.

Also, the rankings are a cannot guarantee any individual will live up or down to the rankings but looked at over a period of time, it shows a pretty high level of success.

AAU DOES get your name out there but TALENT dictates your ranking. Tell me why would a potential top 10 player not play AAU?

Anyways..this topic is getting old. I'm not trying to change your mind. Just stating why I disagree. Appreciate the civil discussion.

Jack Wilson 10 years, 6 months ago

(cont) 7. And other top programs have roadblocks, too. They have players that are really good, that recruits might be concerned about playing time. This is not unique to Kansas. We get zero post players in the class of 2011. None. Our recruiting is so bad that we don't even get a top 100 guy that can qualify. We get Anderson and Traylor, and neither qualify. So it's not the nuance of, "oh, we lost out on #15 guy, and get #60 guy". We got nothing. 8. I love Tharpe. Think he'll be great. But remember, we lost out on Josiah Turner (AZ), and then took Tharpe. Much better than losing out on Tarc, and getting Lucas, for sure. That's a reasonable back-up plan. 9. Coach Self is a great coach. But we have way too much tunnel vision if we think coach Self/Manning can just "coach 'em up." There are scores of other great coaches that take better talent and do better things. Self's one final four and one national title was in the year where he had his best talent .. a roster that was five and four stars eight deep. Eight deep. 10. And no, this is not "the sky is falling." I'm intrigued. But our incredibly thin roster is the result of the core of this topic. It's the reason we are watching Teahan try to guard a guy he can't hang with last Tuesday, and the reason why our season might ride on Justin Wesley. Again, ok at MU, or KSU .. not here. Love both those guys and their hard work and commitment. But that has nothing to do with this topic. It's not an attack on them. It's a recognition of reality. 11. Yes, there is an "entitlement" at KU for those that ask that question. We're spoiled. Guilty there. Top 5 programs should not be in this position. 12. Best quote, KUShaw .. "I think fans are just as confused as I am at the moment." Bingo.

kkoenig 10 years, 6 months ago

<> Self's recruiting approach seems indeed to be to go after one specific player rather than recruiting multiple players for one position/scholarship -- and that has cost him, especially when there isn't any late-in-the-year decommit magic (Lacey) <> Self's personality is heavy on stubbornness. His way or no way. His ostensible lack of involvement with recruits, sending assistants instead, may be another example of this. <> After the 2008 title I think Self expected recruiting to get easier (an assistant could now do the job of the head coach) and this sense of entitlement, if you will, could be underlying some of the difficulties of the past two years.

jaybate 10 years, 6 months ago


I have come to trust you judgement on these points, so I'm going to stipulate what you have said about how he focuses recruiting on one guy.

On the other hand, I don't see much evidence that he is on the road less. He has seemed to be on the road as much more more than before 2008.

What has changed the most since 2008 is the tendency of the 5stars to cluster at UK.

Look at Duke. They look just like KU the last few years. A couple of top guys and then glue.

Look at Florida. Same situation.

Even Roy's bumper crops have thinned a bit.

What has happened is that Cal has been able to skim off the lions share of the 5 stars, while at UK.

Since he has no rings, and since he lacks longevity, and since his motion plays have left so many issues in his wake, and since it was reputed that Camby was paid $40k at UMass, and since a Chicago paper stood by a story about a $100k cash payment that UK has not sued over, and since the Bledsoe issues at UK, etc., it is at least a prudent to consider the possibility that some around the UK program are paying premiums over what others around other programs are willing to give.

In turn, what we are witnessing is what happens when those around other programs fail to pay those premiums.

Every one but UK is sliding down market and there is a cascade effect.

If UNC and Duke no longer have their pick of the players, then they come down to the market segment that KU and Florida had staked out and so Self and Donoan have to go down market. UCLA appears to be in the same predicament.

The problem created by the down market shift for schools is a bigger problem than just stepping down one tier, too.

Recruiting players starts in early high school in most cases 5 star players. So: if what I am speculating on were happening, Self has seen the bulk of his pipeline of 5 star recruits obsoleted once the premium paying began to skim off the 5-stars.

What I am trying to say here is that not only has Self lost his sunk costs in 4 and 5-star recruiting, but he was also not recruiting 3 stars, except for a few fillers. So he has no long standing relationships with the lesser players and Duke, UNC, and so on have moved down market into his previous prime market of 4 star players.

Self (and Donovan) in turn are moving down market into 3 stars.

This is a classic market shift that occurs when an economic actor with more resources enters a market and segments it by skimming off the biggest margins in a market. The 5 stars offer the biggest margins. Their margins are so huge that Cal can get to the tournament every year, even to the Final Four, with virtually an AAU team with but marginal D1 experience.

Ron Franklin 10 years, 6 months ago

JB--just curious why you think Roy is missing out on recruits when he has arguably the deepest talent in the NCAA. He has top 5 recruiting classes 4-5 years and the only other year he was a 7th ranking class. I've noticed you have mentioned that a few times recently.

Ben Simonett 10 years, 6 months ago

To expand on that, Duke just signed the top player in the country last year and had a top 5 class.

Jay has seen the other bluebloods recruiting performance over the past 3 years, i posted there class rankings.

KU is the ONLY blueblood struggling the post-UK Renaissance

jaybate 10 years, 6 months ago

I am probably wrong about UNC. I just saw them against MSU on the carrier and they looked like Harrison Barnes and a bunch of others.

But Duke?

If Self suited up this year's Duke team in KU duds, everyone here would be screaming its a bunch of non athletics--a bunch of Tyrels and Bradys with Plumlee just another Hansbrough that will get punked by the athletics in the Final Four.

Florida? Not wrong about Florida. Billy is paying the piper for hiring Norm Roberts for sure.

But really, the point here is that UNC and Duke are moving down market just as I said.

UNC and Duke have no more chance for the OADs Cal is bringing in than KU. Zilch.

The UK OADs put Duke and UNC on their lists just like the do KU, but then they go to UK.

I still say the broad outlines of my hypothesis fit the facts.

Roy may be an outlier. UNC may be paying premiums, too. Roy did not enjoy that .500 season a couple years ago. Who knows, maybe he joined the dark side?

I forgot to add Calhoun to Cal and UK.

Calhoun has appeared to say who cares about NCAA infractions. I'm at the end of the line and can walk away if the stuff hits the fan.

So UK and UConn are forcing the other programs down market.

Roy and UNC seem like an anomaly that needs further analysis.


Too many non athletics not to say they have gone down market.

Ben Simonett 10 years, 6 months ago

LOL, i swear jaybate i dont always agree with you but sometimes, you hit something so dead on the head i get amazed:

the "brady haters" would have a field day with some of the rosters coach K assembles.

Eric Dawson 10 years, 6 months ago

ralster, you got it in one on both your points. If the NBA ever decides to adopt something like MLB's go straight to the pros or stay at least 3 if you go to school first, (1) the OAD issue disappears and (2) Squid falls on hard times, no matter how much "influence" is brought into play in UK recruiting. Squid only gets the OADs now because they know the existing crop is almost certainly gone by the time the newbies arrive, and they know they'll get a chance to show off their raw talent in the UK offense.

Just my opinion, but I'm pretty certain this year's UK delays were generated by the prospect of the NBA lockout. Wish that our early enterers had been smart enough to make the same decision. The writing was on the wall. They'd be getting playing time to further enhance their value instead of training on their own during the lockout, and KU would be in great shape for this season.

KEITHMILES05 10 years, 6 months ago

White and Adams can both come to KU. Neither is mutually exclusive of the other and in fact there is NO DOUBT White will decide first and the coaches want him badly.

As for Nino Jackson he has WAY too much off the court problems for KU or any program to be pursuing him. I saw him last spring and he looks like a tremendous player but whatever his problems are all schools have backed off. If he ever gets his stuff together then they will be back on him but until then he needs to concentrate on taking care of life issues.

Michael Bratisax 10 years, 6 months ago

I understand where you're coming from and he has had too many off-court problems but hopefully he has matured. I would really like to see this guy in a Jayhawk uniform. he is a true PG and with his talent, I think he would step in for TT and be an immediate impact player.

Kye Clark 10 years, 6 months ago

Shaw - I agree with the chances being slim to land Shabazz, and I'm like you to where I'm not sweating his decision (like I was with Tarc & Perry). But you never know, and my point was I would rather hold onto that slim chance than use a scholarship on Adams and remove yourself from consideration all together.

Regarding the rankings, I don't view them as the gospel, but believe they can be a useful guide. We'll see where Adams is when they update them. I also agree with someone's assessment these are based hugely on their play in the AAU circuit, and that has hurt guys like Adams & Peters.

And regarding recruiting in general, I understood our situation last year. I wasn't happy about it, and thought Self maybe should have had a little more foresight expecting the Twins & Selby to all turn pro, but with the lockout and seeing how many surefire lottery picks ended up staying in college, it wouldn't have shocked anybody if all 3 had returned, in which case no one would have reason to complain about it this year. But fans have been pointing to the 2012 class for years as being pivotal. We got Ellis, which was huge, but I have very tempered enthusiasm about Lucas & Adams. A year ago were these even names being tossed around? No. They're back-up plans. Which is what the "Self knows what he's doing/you aren't a Div 1 coach so I think I'll take Self's word over yours" crowd should acknowledge. If you don't want to believe the rankings, believe that these guys weren't Self's first choices. He was recruiting the same guys everyone else was, and when those players fell through (Tarc, probably Shabazz, etc.), these are the players he turned to, and to me they're a reach. I can understand taking the gamble on player eligibility with guys like BMac, who are talented enough that they're worth the risk. I can understand guys like Naadir Tharpe, who Self really likes that maybe aren't as highly rated as many players that the recruiting honks clamor for. What I don't understand is a combination of the two - lower ranked talent with eligibility issues. And this is what puzzles me, why aren't we able to attract the mid-level guys anymore? Where are the 4-star guys ranked 40-70 (who would be a lock to be cleared to play the following year)? To me, at a program like KU with available playing time to be had, those players should be your back-up plans, and I don't think a class of Ellis, Peters, Lucas, & Adams is as strong as it needed to be given how everyone knew this class would be crucial. Two years down the road, it may turn out that I was wrong. We'll see.

lee3022 10 years, 6 months ago

"Self knows what he's doing/you aren't a Div 1 coach so I think I'll take Self's word over yours" crowd - that would be me.

I agree that there are players coach wanted more skilled than some he signed. But the reality is that coach Self has made his bones on defense and that skill has slipped some in the past two years. I want us to return to a defense-first team and from his comments I believe coach wants that also. Now how do the rating services do on defensive players? From my perspective they mostly ignore that side of the ball. At least on 5 and 4 stars. The players that coach signs are being offered by at least one or two other high majors or even elite majors.

But so long as a program is winning the fans would be better serving to support rather than criticize the recruiting. Just because we cannot brag to our mates does not make these players less useful. When we lose double digit games for consecutive years I will become uneasy also. That has not happened lately.

Stephan123 10 years, 6 months ago

Anrio ("Rio") Adam's high school coach states that Adams has a skill level equivalent to other Rainier high grads such as Jamal Crawford, Terrance Williams, Roderick Stewart and Nate Robinson. Could be a nice addition to the team.

Rae Bricil 10 years, 6 months ago

A few things that have already been said above and a link as well. Interesting Rivals has him as the #8 SG and 63rd overall while Scout has him unranked. Def talent there. Time will tell.

Ben Simonett 10 years, 6 months ago

I dont want Callipari, or Pastner, or Sean Miller,

I just want the Bill Self we had the first 7 years he was here, not this recruiting clown we've had the last 2 years.

Michael Bratisax 10 years, 6 months ago

Roy won his first with most of Doherty's players but the best player on that team was Marvin Williams and he was recruited by Roy.

rxjayhawk 10 years, 6 months ago

Just think about it this way, all those Cinderella's that appear in the tournament like VCU, Northern Iowa all have players that are not as good as ours right? Even if we are scraping the bottom of the barrel. If our players are equally as good/better, then it's not completely impossible to make a run in march considering those teams can. We are fine. Self will have good years and bad years recruiting, but in the end, he still has a team on the floor that can make a run any year. So let's just sit back and enjoy! Rock Chalk!

PVJayhawk 10 years, 6 months ago

Learn what and how? If we don't identify the root cause of these chokes and early exits we can't learn anything and are condemned to repeat history.

You said it is not a system problem but rather a "problem within a specific loss". A problem within a specific loss that should have been a relatively easy win is probably a coaching problem and the coach is part of the system.

rxjayhawk 10 years, 6 months ago

I have heard that having a good football team helps in recruiting.

Joe Baker 10 years, 6 months ago

Yeah, look at Duke. Their football program has been a BCS threat since Coach K's arrival to the bball program. LOL

Alohahawk 10 years, 6 months ago

It took a long, drawn out half hour to read through all the well thought out posts above (which probably gave most Jayhawk fans heartburn and indigestion). Thanks for the hearty laugh I received from your short, satirical observation. Which adlibs perfectly to a football season filled with frustration. Lets hope it doesn't carry over into the basketball season.

AZHawk72 10 years, 6 months ago

If I seem "excited," it's because we need a guard for this class--even if it's a bit of a reach. Adams appears to be all about untapped potential, and I feel we have coaches capable of extracting it. And while Adams is a shooting guard with leanings toward the point, White is a small forward with learnings toward the shooting guard. Both would complement the other.

Hopefully, the three 4-5s already in the fold will fill our gaping frontcourt void. However, I shudder starting next year with just Tharpe and Johnson, praying for no fouls throughout every game. Sure Mac will help, but I assume we will see him as much at the 3 as the shooting guard.

Adams appears to be a character. He gets 45 points and sits out a quarter, which I hope was due to a rout situation. If it was the first quarter, then I would have some concerns. He could boost his image by adding some exposure on the AAU circuit, yet he studies M.J. He's certainly familiar with our program and the emphasis on defense, but his history seems to be "I'm in the frontcourt, so I must be 'open' and let 'er rip from 40-feet." Evidently, he didn't study the offensive tendencies of our program. Again, coaching and pine time should have an impact.

When a team recruits a little later, it runs the risk of a largely empty cupboard. All of these top 100, top 150 recruiting lists seem to grow empty much earlier than even five years ago. As you read this, some coach has just written another eighth grader extolling the virtues of his school. If you're a little behind the eight ball and are not sure who's going and who's staying for next year, you're forced to recruit more on "potential" than exhibited talent or, excluding Ellis, something like this year's effort.

kranny 10 years, 6 months ago

Self has the best asst. coaches in the world for developing players. There's bound to be some down years in recruiting. Look at Roy. Even with all of the McD's he's failed to make the tourney. In 2 years the Hawks will be looking at the final 4 again. Got to keep recruiting the guards though.

Joe Baker 10 years, 6 months ago

I really don't think the coaching staff much to do with this recruiting announcement. At this point, KU has not commented unitl the kid is academically eligible. It seems he is determined to play for KU for his relationship with the Stuarts and the godfather note. He seems like a great player.

I really don't think this has anything to do with any ideas or news from Andrew White's recruiting situation. I think this was a simple case of a kid wanting to play for a great bball program and KU is interested only if the situation plays out by the book.

I think we have White over Gtown, UT and WV. I really think Shabaaz is 50/50 at this point and there are too many factors against KU that have to work for us.

TXBBall55 10 years, 6 months ago

Someone please wake me up from this nightmare.

treed14ku 10 years, 6 months ago

Nightmare? You are such a tool. I'm not sure how possibly getting one of the best scoring guards in the country who had offers from Arizona, Pitt, UCLA, Texas, Gonzaga, Oregon, Washington, USC, etc. is a nightmare. What I consider a nightmare is having "fans" like you trying to act as a representative of the University of Kansas.

TXBBall55 10 years, 6 months ago

Shut up. At best it's another project player that may or may not qualify. At worst, he's another player that will soak up a schol. You kool aid drinkers that look at the recruiting classes these past couple of years and aren't concerned just show you aren't paying attention. For those of you that are in the "HCBS won't fail us" mindset need to be reminded that KU has never been close (in 20+ years) to this type of talent -- or lack there of. I understand they've chased the bigger names and come up short, but that doesn't mean that filling the class with project players isn't less than ideal.

treed14ku 10 years, 6 months ago

Project player? You do realize that as of just this summer Rivals had him rated as the 63rd player in the 2012 class? Only reason he isn't showing up there now is b/c people weren't sure which class he would be in. I've become convinced that you are just a KSU/Mizzou/UK,etc troll who floods KU boards. But if you really are a KU "fan", please leave our fanbase, we don't need fools like you.

dallasjayhawk10 10 years, 6 months ago

This comment was removed by the site staff for violation of the usage agreement.

treed14ku 10 years, 6 months ago

So this must be TXBBall55's second account name. I doubt he is a more avid fan than me considering I have been following KU my entire life and just graduated from KU after seeing 100ish home games over the last 5 years in person. Plus, quality fans don't bash on a coach who has been ridiculously successful based on losing a couple of recruits. The sky isn't falling.

dallasjayhawk10 10 years, 6 months ago

going to games and being an alum doesn't make you an "avid" fan. we've had success under self (we've always had success), but we're treaded into waters we've never been in. recruiting players who aren't ranked high, with eligibility issues, doesn't sound very promising to me.

how many final fours have we been to under self?

TXBBall55 10 years, 6 months ago

LOL...I might be your dad. We don't need another "Jayhawk Fan Resume" thread, but let's just say I'm respectfully "qualified" and move on...

TXBBall55 10 years, 6 months ago

Thanks Dallas. I'm in Dallas, too (btw). They really need to do something about alumni events in the area...

As far as Adams, I didn't directly attack the guy. He may be yet another "hidden gem". I'm more than fine with a couple of unranked (or very low ranked) project players on a roster. You need the stability of "role players" and you never know, they might surprise us. When you get six - seven, I'm concerned. Fact is, NOT ONE OF YOU can say all will be fine because this is new territory.

I do have faith that HCBS will exercise solid "scholarship management." I'm just praying for more promising signs of things to come. That doesn't make me -- or anyone else -- a tool.

Ron Franklin 10 years, 6 months ago

2 thoughts-

1) Butler has been in the National Championship the last two years.

Gordon Haywar-not ranked Shelvin Mack--not ranked Matt Howard--91st

2) When you don't succeed, you don't give up. You try, try again. ie...Anderson, Traylor, McLemore, Selby, X. Get what you can and let the details work themselves out later. Nobody is a mind reader.

Kye Clark 10 years, 6 months ago

Ralster - I agree that it is a pipe dream to think we could have a team full of all that talent the '08 team had year-in & year-out. However, speaking only for myself, I want to see us making strides to get back to that level every year. Sure you're going to have set-backs - players leaving early, injuries, players not living up to expectations - but there should be signs of progression, either through recruiting or player development, every year. I don't think we're seeing that right now. Take this year - is it a reloading year? Certainly not. Is it a rebuilding year? No. We're not a young team. Inexperienced yes, but not young. A team that will improve with chemistry playing together, but likely will not improve due to players picking up a greater understanding of the system. Most of the major contributors have been in the system long enough no great strides will be made there. Fans can handle a loss (even one as painful as losing to UK, for many the top program we'd love to kick in their teeth), fans can handle years like '08-'09 where there aren't NC expectations. They can even handle the tourney upsets. But this is different. To feel like we're witnessing our program "falling off", as Indiana, UCLA, Kentucky, UNC, & Duke have all done in the recent past. Is that what's happening? It'll take a few years to know, but like I said, when you're neither in rebuilding nor reloading mode, it kind of feels that way. Could be this is just a down year, a bridge year to next year's rebuilding process.

As for your comments about discussing the recruiting woes not helping and (tongue-in-cheek) calling for fans to do something about're a better poster than that. You're better than one of these who throws out the "if you know more than Bill Self why don't you go enlighten him as to how to fix things" lines. You're one of the small handful of posters that I read all of your posts. I know it can become tiresome, even annoying to read the rhetoric on here sometimes, but let me take the opposite position. Instead of the "handwringing" as you call it, would applauding the recent trends in recruiting help get players signed? Would turning a blind eye to these difficulties & frustrations do anything to improve our roster? By and large I think the discussions on this issue have been more than reasonable. Aside from the rare case, there has been no calling for us to go all Tubby Smith on Self. Mostly it's just been a collective scratching of our heads wondering what has changed, and wondering what needs to be done to get us back to where everyone wants us to be.

TXBBall55 10 years, 6 months ago

"Mostly it's just been a collective scratching of our heads wondering what has changed, and wondering what needs to be done to get us back to where everyone wants us to be."

+1 What has changed???

Ben Simonett 10 years, 6 months ago

"you're a better poster than that"


you stated yourself that you read all his posts so you must know by now that half the time all Ralstars posts amount to are profanity ladened tirades against anyone with an opinion different from his.

I know from personal experience.

Kye Clark 10 years, 6 months ago

TXBBall - I don't know what has changed. I don't profess to be an "insider" or have unique knowledge. I have theories; opinions.

First of all, I'm of the belief that recruiting has been trending downward ever since the NC, which is odd. Some people may raise an eyebrow at that statement, citing such players as Xavier, Selby, & the Twins as recruiting successes. However, I say take out the decommits. While the Twins (and to a lesser extent others such as Tyshawn) have had on-court success, I don't count those as recruiting wins, because like so many other recruiting battles we have lost, we were the runner-up to these players. We had two seasons where Self landed some decommits, and after that I saw a flurry of posters reinforcing their faith by claiming "Self always pulls a rabbit out of his hat late." However, this is not a recipe for success, as we saw with this past year's meager recruiting class. Take out the decommits (and Jeff Withey, a transfer who left Arizona for basically the same reason the decommits opted out of their original schools), and the past four years Self has brought in: '08 - Tyrone Appleton, Quintrell Thomas, Mario Little, Travis Releford, '09 - Thomas Robinson & Elijah Johnson, '10 - Josh Selby & Royce Woolridge, and '11 - Naadir Tharpe & the 3 partial qualifiers. Certainly '09 was solid on paper (although EJ has thus far not lived up to his potential/ranking), and '10 might have been a decent with just Selby had things worked out differently for him. But consider what it took to win our NC - 3 solid recruiting classes, bringing in nothing but 4 & 5 star talent. In the 4 years leading up to our NC Self brought in maybe 6 McDonald's All-Americans (Chalmers, Wright, Downs, Collins, Arthur, & I missing anybody?), in the 4 years since the NC he has brought in 2 - Selby & Xavier (one a decommit). While it might be asking too much to expect another run of recruiting success like Self had during those 3 or 4 years (the 4th year of that run we were loaded, and he still landed Aldrich), I believe it will take more than what we've been getting to expect another NC run.

In part, the point of examining where we've been and how we got here is to show what it is not. It's not conference re-alignment. If it was, we wouldn't see the trend beginning before the destabilization of the Big XII. We've been losing out on more than our share for awhile. It seems that whenever there is any other high-level program in on a kid, we lose out. Others have listed the players we've missed out on and honestly I can't think of them all. Obviously we can't get them all, but of the kids that we heavily recruit, that we commit substantial time & resources on, we used to get more than we're getting now.

Kye Clark 10 years, 6 months ago

I also don't believe it to be a case of other schools promising playing time or not telling kids they'll have to earn their minutes. It probably has happened with some kids, but players are choosing too many different programs over us for it to be that wide-spread to explain it. I do think Self gives these kids straight talk, but he's not the only one. I think it's a sour grapes excuse throwing that out there, and it's insulting to these 17-18 year old kids to just assume and/or speculate that they were afraid of hard work or that something shady went on leading to them signing elsewhere.

So what is it? There's not one thing, but it's most likely a combination of a few different things. First of all, available playing time has probably factored into it quite bit. It doesn't explain the drought this past class, but we've been a deep team the past couple of seasons. So deep in fact that we've red-shirted guys who probably never thought they'd spend a season watching from the bench. Playing time and possibly riding the bench most likely doesn't affect our ability (or inability) to sign the top 20 guys, but it probably has driven away some guys outside of the top 20. If you're looking at being the 4th big, you're probably not going to see the court much. Consider Cole Aldrich - McDonald's All-American and rivals ranked #30 player coming out of high school. Barely saw the court his first year. Jeff Withey - rivals ranked #36 player out of high school - hasn't seen much PT for a year and a half (after sitting out a year upon his transfer). Thomas Robinson - rivals ranked #31 out of high school. Didn't see the court much his first year, and came off the bench his sophomore campaign. The same applies to the perimeter players, although the examples are not as abundant and obvious. EJ - rivals ranked #24 and 5-star recruit out of high school. Not much PT his first year, role/bench player his sophomore year. Travis Releford - ranked #70 and a 4-star recruit out of high school. Little playing time his freshman year (when plenty was there to be had), had to red-shirt his sophomore year to avoid burning another year of eligibility on the bench, then still a bench player his 3rd year in the program. And Mario Little - a small forward often forced to play the post. JUCO player of the year. Red-shirted during a season he was healthy, part of a deep rotation his Senior campaign and was the 3rd player off the bench. Again, past depth and available playing time concerns probably didn't influence the OAD types, those in the top 20 of the recruiting rankings, but I would venture to guess that it has hampered Self's ability to recruit the next tier of players. Those just outside the elite level. And yes having more talented players in front of incoming recruits is a good thing. It means you have had talented, deep rosters. However, in this case it also means that it's increasingly difficult to keep the roster that deep & talented.

Kye Clark 10 years, 6 months ago

Associated with playing time issues is the Tyrel Reed/Brady Morningstar phenomenon. Whether you were in agreement with those two playing the minutes they did or not (and I'm not posting to re-hash that issue), I'm sure recruits saw more heralded players sitting behind those two as a drawback to signing with KU. I'm also pretty confident in assuming that other schools have used this against us in recruiting. "Go to KU, and risk sitting behind a couple of 3-star local kids". Perception is reality.

So available PT is part of it. But what about this year? To me this is where Self starts to assume part of the blame. If he did in fact believe that any or all of the trio of the Morris Twins & Selby would be returning, it was a misread on his part. The fact that he didn't have a contingency plan in place recruiting-wise for the Twins coming out tells me he thought they'd be back. And he's lucky that TRob decided to come back, or else the situation would be truly dire. Obviously he couldn't tell recruits, especially in the early period, that there would be an opening down in the post, but he should have been cultivating more options than Jamari Traylor (who I felt was actually just a "sweetener" to try and entice Deandre Daniels to come here) and Braedon Anderson.

Other contributors are probably John Calipari arriving at UK and the ripple effect him "being able to skim off the lions share of the 5 stars", as described by Jaybate. It doesn't explain Sean Miller's outstanding recruiting success, but it's probably a part of it. Also, the mounting collection of embarrassing tournament losses to inferior talent. Those losses carry far more weight than the 7 consecutive conference championships some people like to point at as some kind of magical recruiting currency.

Anyway, recruiting is far too complicated and nuanced for a simple fan like me to fully comprehend. But like I said, these are a few of my opinions on the matter. And to clarify my position on Adams, if it wasn't for his almost certain eligibility issues, I'd be pretty pleased with this development. He might be a little raw, but had he played AAU ball last summer he'd be about in the range of recruit that I think Self should be targeting when he misses out on the elite crop.

TXBBall55 10 years, 6 months ago

Thanks for your analysis. I'll certainly take a "wait and see" approach on Adams, but like many I'm more than a bit concerned about the program in general.

Jack Wilson 10 years, 6 months ago

Ah, now we're on to something .. KU had offered him before. Soft landing in Lawrence, eligible Dec. 20, 2012.

Ben Simonett 10 years, 6 months ago

I'd seriously give him a second look.

But is he willing to loose a year of eligibility to transfer to another D1 school?

jaybate 10 years, 6 months ago

~Anrio Adams = good get.

If a guy can score in bushels, Self can teach him defense.

Too much hand wringing.

~Poppa Stewart delivered Self a god son. Amazing considering his son had to sit a lot at KU.

~Its an impressive class taking shape.

~And it looks like EJ may be coming back for another season, despite early talk of a blow up year.

~And if TRob has as serious of a knee injury as I fear? TRob will be here next season, too.

~Next year could be a log jam.

~Frankly, Self is doing what he began doing after last season ended. He's signing the first guys that want to be Jayhawks. I like it. Anrio wanted to be a Jayhawk. Boom! He is. Perry wanted to be a Jayhawk. Boom he is! Landen wanted to be one. Boom! He is, too. Self is done being outbid for players by Calhoun, Roy, and Cal. Fine. Good.

~Self, Donovan, Consonants, and Howland appear to be at the core of a rebellion against certain AAU coaches and certain juco coaches. Each ones talent levels have fallen beneath UK and UConn and UNC.

~Sorry UNC, but we have seen Roy's talent level fall off and trigger a .500 season. Mysteriously he talked Harrison Barnes out of coming to KU. He has been landing D1 talent since as if he were using a net. In this day and age, the teams landing more than their share of talent are suspect. You are suspect, UNC.

~For the last few years, Self, Consonants, Donovan, and Howland can land a couple of good players each year, but then they have to go down market for the rest of the players. They are winning, but they are not attracting the great players. Why? The answer could be green.

~So, jaybate, if some of the teams were paying big premiums for their top talent, why wouldn't the other teams just turn them in?

Answer: All teams must pay some green to their players. So: when some pay premiums, the others cannot turn them in, or they too will be turned in, even though they pay much less? Entirely speculation. But...

"The eyes are not here There are no eyes here In this valley of dying stars In this hollow valley This broken jaw of our lost kingdoms

In this last of meeting places We grope together and avoid speech Gathered on this beach of the tumid river..."

--T.S. Eliot

lothario 10 years, 6 months ago

Hey clowns! Do you seriously want another 3 attended high school player as a recruit? Self got burned 3 times this year. Let's step it up and get better recruits.

As I once said before, Self has go to change up his assistant coaches for recruiting. The current ones aren't doing it for him. Danny stays.

selfishhawk 10 years, 6 months ago

AGREED!!! Maybe Dooley stays too. I think he's a pretty good coach.

Sandeep Kalburgie 10 years, 6 months ago

I really want to be positive about KUs recruiting class this year and the next year, BUT all the news drags me towards the negative side :(

Page Butler 10 years, 6 months ago

This just in!! I am committing to play basketball at KU next season. The coaches don't know it yet, but I am committed.

TXBBall55 10 years, 6 months ago

LOL...I'm sure they would be thrilled to know!

dallasjayhawk10 10 years, 6 months ago

what is the probability that he gets into ku and is declared eligible?

Steve Gantz 10 years, 6 months ago

Sorry if someone has said this already but... "He's a carbon copy of DWade". Wow, let's sign him right now, get him his answers for the SAT, find someone who looks like him to take the test for him. Get this kid now. He's gonna be great, I mean, he's a carbon copy of DWade! (no wonder these kids get so screwed up when you have a coach tell people he's like DWade)

Joe Baker 10 years, 6 months ago

wissox- I can understand your point. I get it because you were laying it on pretty thick. However, have you seen game vid of this kid? He's pretty good and Self is a great coach for a kid with so much ability. Self will give this kid a dose of reality and teach him to deny himself and follow the team. The key to a good player is to lose yourself in the team and become great together, not individuals.

I think it's telling the first thing Cal says about his team is, "they don't listen...they want to be heroes." There's the result of your OAD. The one "OAD" that I really wish KU could've snatched was Harrison Barnes. This kid has a great attitude and is crazy smart on and off the court. He is really a great example to all these OAD recruits.

Steve Gantz 10 years, 6 months ago

Thanks for your reply. I haven't seen video. I generally withhold excitement over a kid until they start producing for the Crimson and Blue, no matter how highly touted they are. Just reading the above didn't make me go wow, that's for sure!

Alohahawk 10 years, 6 months ago

As far as getting Adams his SAT answers and cheating on college entrance exams, I'd rather have Cal Lie Pari do that. He's the proven expert, but sooner or later, as he did at Memphis, he'll get caught again.

As for positive proof of ID, I've always wondered why the exam sites don't take fingerprints of those taking the tests, for future reference.

Joe Baker 10 years, 6 months ago

Nice. We have all the negative input on the board about certain recruits. You all want another round of Sebly pt 2? Yeah, let's go out beg, gravel and kiss up to get a big 5 star that burns Self. If we can get a 5 star recruit to turn uk and zona away, have the attitude of our last few commitments: EJ, Lucas, Peters and now Adams, great let's get them. I liked Selby and enjoyed his rank. He simply wanted to be "the man" to lead the team but he hadn't earned anything. He thought he was entitled to inherit a leadership role.

I've been asking the same question. What does uk and Cal offer players that KU can't offer? It seems really strange these kids can go to any program and go to the next level, yet they choose uk. We all know and have thrown out accusations against Cal. It's not hate, it's just that Self can't get what he gets and yet Cal can't get the title with all the talent we want Self to get on Oread. I enjoy watching Cal get so close and fail with all his dozens of 5 star recruits. I enjoy watching Self bring what many on this board claim to be sub-par 3-4 star recruits and get them to the Sweet 16, Elite 8 or the F4. Self does something that Cal has never done: Develop players. Cal doesn't create those recruits, they create him. Cal is selfish and it's all about his career and reputation. The year he fails to get these players, he will look like a big fool because he can't coach worth crap and develop players. Let's see Cal take a group of 3-4 star recruits and find what he can really do or how far he gets. I would say maybe the NIT, LOL.

Lighten up Jayhawk Nation and let Self do what he does best. He gets kids with so much up side, develops them into NBA talent by their soph or junior seasons. Let's see what he does with this group. There's lots of time between now and January. I see great things and Self doesn't seem too concerned about getting the next stud but kids that want to work and learn.

selfishhawk 10 years, 6 months ago

Yup, we should be happy to get anyone. It's not like we have any history, tradition, a great coaching staff or the facilites to justify anything more than your average player.

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