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Friday, November 11, 2011

Gary Bedore’s KU basketball notebook: Bill Self speaks on recruiting

Kansas head men's basketball coach Bill Self addressed the media in his weekly press conference Thursday, Nov. 10, 2011 at Allen Fieldhouse. Self said the top three perimeter defenders he has coached at Kansas are Brandon Rush, Russell Robinson and Brady Morningstar.

Bill Self press conference, Nov. 10, 2011

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Kansas University basketball coach Bill Self likes what he’s seen in Perry Ellis the basketball player and Ellis the person.

“The kid is so competitive in the classroom. He wants to be valedictorian,” Self said of the 6-foot-8 Wichita Heights senior standout, who on Wednesday signed a letter of intent with KU. “Perry wants to go into business. I’m not sure if international business or general business, finance or accounting.”

Of course, as Rivals.com’s No. 24-rated player, there’s a chance Ellis will put off his business career a few years for a lucrative NBA career.

He’s the state of Kansas’ most accomplished recruit since Wayne Simien.

Self was asked if recruiting would be easier if the state churned out blue-chip prospects such as Ellis more often.

“Recruiting is hard everywhere,” Self said. “People think just because you coach at a place that has the appearance of having everything in place ... the people you go against in recruiting have the appearance of having everything in place, too. So much of it comes down to different things. A lot of times it’s geography. A lot of times it’s not. Every individual is different.

“Recruiting is hard everywhere,” he repeated. “It doesn’t matter if you are at Kentucky or Duke or Carolina or Kansas. You think it should be easy. When you are going into somebody else’s backyard to try to get ’em, it’s not always easy. There’s a lot of good players out there. I hope we are able to sign a couple more kids early. I believe we will ... that will really solidify this class.”

No. 144-rated Zach Peters, a 6-9 forward from Prestonwood Christian Academy in Plano, Texas, will sign with KU at a Monday night banquet. Meanwhile, Landen Lucas, a 6-foot-9, 240-pound center from Westview High School in Portland, Ore., begins a campus visit to KU today. He tells jayhawkslant.com he will sign with a school in the early signing period, which concludes Wednesday. The unranked player has visited Cal, Stanford, Washington and Tennessee. KU is also after No. 56 Andrew White, a 6-6 senior from Miller School in Chester, Va., who is also considering Louisville, West Virginia and North Carolina State, with Georgetown trying to set up a visit.

Labels: Self at his weekly news conference was asked if he has ever been labeled as a “recruiter” more than a “coach.”

“I think a lot of people have said that,” Self said. “We haven’t recruited near as many McDonald’s All-Americans. Since I’ve been here we’ve signed seven or eight (seven). We’ve done pretty well with the guys we’ve gotten, though.”

About Towson: Located in Towson, Md., with an enrollment of 21,111, Towson returns two letter-winners from last season’s 4-26 team. Senior forward Robert Nwankwo, who sat out the 2010-11 season, is back for his fifth year. Nwankwo averaged 9.9 points as a junior and was the Colonial Athletic Association leader in rebounds (9.2 rpg), field-goal percentage (.562) and blocked shots (3.2 bpg) in 2009-10. Sophomore forward Erique Gumbs averaged 3.6 points and 2.8 rebounds with four starts last year. ... KU leads the all-time series 1-0. KU beat the Tigers 87-61 on Nov. 19, 2006, in Allen Fieldhouse. The game was the opening round of the Las Vegas Invitational. ... KU is 2-1 all time against current membership of the CAA . ... This game is technically part of the EA Sports Maui Invitational. ... Towson beat Holy Family, 51-43, and lost to Virginia State, 50-43, in the exhibition season. “They haven’t scored great yet, but it’s exhibition games,” Self said.

Comments

kusportsdotcom 10 years, 6 months ago

As much as I enjoyed a guy like Xavier Henry, and as happy as I was to land the top recruit in Selby (bust or no bust), those guys did not have a lasting impact on KU. I would not be unhappy if we landed top 5 recruits every year, but those guys are virtually guaranteed one and done players. Let those guys go to Kentucky. I'd rather have the kinds of guys we get, who stay for a few years and really learn the game under a good coach.

Ben Kane 10 years, 6 months ago

agree. i said that during the last exhibition game and was ridiculed for it.

Ben Simonett 10 years, 6 months ago

Triple Ditto,

but the guys your talking about are kids in the 30-50 range on the recruiting sites, not the 100+ or unranked kids we've been signing lately

HawkKlaw 10 years, 6 months ago

Did you forget about Naadir?

Sure, it's just been two exhibition games, but the kid has shown signs that he could eventually be a big time player at KU, possibly even as early as next season.

Oh, and didn't Perry Ellis just sign? He's ranked pretty high or something, right?

ku_foaf 10 years, 6 months ago

Yes, sir. We will have a difficult remembering Josh Selby's name in 10 years. I have nothing against him, he just did not have an impact due to a short KU career. Same for Xavier. It's not like we remember "That was the team Xavier was on."

Who was the last "one and done" that had a really big impact? Carmelo, obviously. One of Roy's players from his 2005 championship team? See, I don't even remember his name!

dylans 10 years, 6 months ago

Beasley's impact is still being felt at the little apple. Rose and Wall weren't bad either, but there are flops every year also. The few OAD players who do stay for 2-3 years are worth the risk for a scholarship a year not the multiple roster spots UK offers up every year.

dgless21 10 years, 6 months ago

Marvin Williams...

Greg Oden. Durant. Rose. Wall.

johnnyhrdwd 10 years, 6 months ago

Would you rather have a blue chip player or a player with a chip on his shoulder?

Mike Barnhart 10 years, 6 months ago

Great question! I'll lean towards the "chip on his shoulder" guy. Guys ranked between 10 and 50 that love Kansas and want to get better. Better yet, find me some no-name gym rats like Jimmer Fredette, Stephen Curry and Nick Fazekas.

That said, our 2008 NC team featured four McDonalds All-Americans, five 5-star recruits and three 4-star recruits.

Andy Tweedy 10 years, 6 months ago

I agree, except that I think you have to go past position 10 to get to the non-blue chip guys. To me, blue chip would go all the way to about the top 30 players.

addlime 10 years, 6 months ago

We forget how many all-americans were on that team, and we forget that B-Rush only came back because of the ACL. So hard to win a championship these days!

kufankam 10 years, 6 months ago

i totally would want the kid with the chip on his shoulder over the kid who is a blue chipper but plays with no edge...

in a perfect world, they would have both :) a blue chipper WITH a chip on his shoulder (say mario chalmers). he was a stud that never received the pub that guys like lawson received. therefore, he played with something to prove at all times. very rare to find the combo, but when we can land one - it pays off.

kerbyd 10 years, 6 months ago

I think since Rio came from Alaska, that is why he was somewhat overlooked even though he was very highly rated.

kufankam 10 years, 6 months ago

i think that is a HUGE reason why... i am just glad he was so he could play with that edge...

nuleafjhawk 10 years, 6 months ago

It's 6 am and I've had one cup of coffee - so consider that.

In my limited capacity to remember things accurately (and I forget a lot of stuff that I don't care about) - Carmelo Anthony was about the only OaD that ever really took his team to a NC (thanks to our FT shooting disability) before hopping the NBA train..

Danny Manny could have been a One and Done if he had chosen that path, but it was a different era (thank goodness).

There are so many players out there that could further develop their basketball skills, mature physically, mentally and socially and actually enjoy the college experience - then go and make boatloads of money. I TOTALLY get why they go early, but to me they're cheating themselves. If they're really NBA material, another year or two in college will only enhance what they can do later.

ku_foaf 10 years, 6 months ago

I was trying to remember the same thing, and I could only come up with Carmelo also!

DrPepper 10 years, 6 months ago

Derrick Rose at Memphis was about 3.6 seconds from a NC. OAD in college then NBA rookie of the year. Followed by NBA All-Star in his 2nd year.

Alohahawk 10 years, 6 months ago

Yeah, too bad Rose never won a single game in college. Thanks to Cal Lie Pari and his hijinks.

LAJayhawk 10 years, 6 months ago

Rose was one free throw shot away from an NC.

But your point is still the same: it's very rare they have that kind of impact. And those that do are guys that are superstars in the League (i.e. Rose and Melo). If the rule had been in place, guys like Kobe and LBJ probably would have had the same impact.

It's a stupid rule. If you are good enough to go after 1 year, you are good enough out of high school. If you're not, you benefit from multiple years in college. That's why the baseball rule is the best.

John Brown 10 years, 6 months ago

It will be interesting to see what the NBA decides concerning the "one and done" kids. Is Selby making money, yet? He may be a talented player but in never showed up in his freshman year. He could have used this year to really showcase his talent. I prefer the kids who stay a few years. We won the NCAA Championship in Manning's Senior year, not his Freshman year.

chriz 10 years, 6 months ago

Why does everyone keep talking about one and dones? I think most of the fanbase would be happy with anyone in the top 20, but we can't even seem to get those! The guys Self has seriously pursued are NOT one and dones. They would stay in the program for a couple of years, and he's whiffed on all of them except Ellis.

So my point is, don't think that Bill hasn't also gone after the "program" players. He has, and he's missed out, and his excuse is that it's "hard". Not that I disagree...I would just like a little better explanation

NebraskaJayhawk 10 years, 6 months ago

Well, if Bill was honest, he'd probably say he didn't get them because he didn't hire you to do the recruiting for him.

chriz 10 years, 6 months ago

I love it when people bring the "why don't YOU do it" line. You're echoing what he's saying. "It's hard." Offer something more valuable next time you post. Is it not okay for us to wonder why recruiting has been difficult for us recently? What's wrong for asking for specifics? In fact, I think I remember hearing from Self once that it had to do with official trips, travel, and stuff like that. I'd like to hear him elaborate, though. Bill Self doesn't need you as his press secretary.

Andy Tweedy 10 years, 6 months ago

I think you, and many others, are being way too hard on the coaching staff for all these "misses!" Seriously, the starting lineup this year will probably be (just a guess), TR (4-star), JW (4-star), EJ (4-star), TT (3-star) and TrR (4-star). And on the bench he has the likes of Tharpe (4-star), and McLemore (5-star) (I know he can't play). That's some pretty heavy hitters if you consider the ratings by the publications. Last year, he lost the twins (both 4-stars) and Selby (5-star), and the year before that he lost Henry (5-star). So where are all these misses that the critics keep talking about? Sure, he's missed on some really good kids, but he's also brought in a TON of talent. You don't win 7 straight conference championships with a bunch of guys nobody wants.

chriz 10 years, 6 months ago

Dude, I'm just as excited about this year's team as you are. Trust me. Especially Naadir. I've been singing his praises since he committed to us. I love watching the dude play. So calm on the floor, beyond his years in understanding of the game.

I just think that it's interesting that he hasn't been as successful recently as he has been in years past. There are a lot of teams who are starting 3- and 4-star players. But we're Kansas. I would hope to have a few five-star players in there as well. That's what it took to win the title back in '08, and my guess is that's what it'll take to win another one.

We can win Big XII titles all day long. But the Big XII is weak. When was the last time a Big XII team besides KU was in the Final Four, much less win the title?

Andy Tweedy 10 years, 6 months ago

Naadir is a baller!!! Love those true point guards, guys like Vaughn and Miles!

David Brown 10 years, 6 months ago

Agreed. Lots of good players out there; lots of colleges to go to. What Coach Self is "selling" I'm guessing is roughly the same each year. It appeals to some, some it does not. I would also suggest that the Big 12 instability doesn't help and other coaches might use it against us.

LAJayhawk 10 years, 6 months ago

Chriz,

I respect and definitely understand what you are saying. The only point I would make is that Self is limited in the things he can say, and he will limit himself in what he says in order to not give too much away and hurt him in the future. There are strict rules that you cannot talk about kids during the recruiting process. Of course, once they sign he could talk about it, but why would he mention those he lost? It brings more attention to it which could hurt future recruiting, and it makes the guys you land feel less valued. There is no benefit in talking about the recruits you didn't get.

So, Self talks generally. Yes, he did basically only say that "it's hard." But if you reread that section, you'll see him say that each situation is different, and it absolutely is. I mean, Darrell Arthur changed his mind and chose KU because he had a freakin' dream about it! So in order to give you more information, he would have to talk specifically about a recruit, and what would he say: "That Kaleb Tarczewski kid choose Arizona because he thought the Towers were gross and he got laid while in Tuscan."

[Note: just illustrating a point, not suggesting I have any idea why Tarczewski chose the way he did]

Anyway, my point is, there really is no way for Self to explain it any further in a way that would help. I'm sure he is working on correcting whatever issues he is having at landing recruits. He is one of the best coaches in the country, and incredibly competitive. So I'm sure his disappointment is greater than all of ours (not that you were suggesting it wasn't).

REHawk 10 years, 6 months ago

Very disconcerting, losing a starter after one year. At the time of his departure, I sensed that Xavier really desired to stay another season. The guaranteed money and family push won out...which is understandable, but sad. That one and done rule has not been good for college hoops.

Don Perry 10 years, 6 months ago

It really bothers me to hear fans talk about the recruiting ability of HCBS. You want to know why THIS KU team is picked in the 11-15 range in almost all publications? Bill Self! The return of Robinson and Taylor aside, this team is viewed favorably because of the coaching ability of Self and this staff. I'll take a coach who can teach, motivate, and push his players (McDonald's All-Americans or not) to achieve things as a team over a Calipari who gets five superstars every year but always has that one fatal flaw that causes them to lose in big games.

Give me four-year players like Taylor (admittedly without the headaches) to whom I can become attached; give me homegrown gym rats like Morningstar and Reed; give me players who work to increase their abilities like the Morris twins; give me walkons who sit the bench, practice hard, provide the scout team, and step up when their time comes like (hopefully) Tehan and Wesley. Those are the kinds of players to build your program around.

Do I expect a 30-2 record and another regional final, probably not. But, do I believe with the ability of Coach Self, and his staff, it could be an "overachieving" season like that - yes.

I am just glad it starts tonight!!

Jack Wilson 10 years, 6 months ago

Do I ever expect 30-2? Never. Do I ever expect a regional final? Always. This is Kansas.

HawkKlaw 10 years, 6 months ago

Derp! Entitlement issues, much? Just because we're KU doesn't mean we don't have to scrap and fight for every win like any other school. Then again, I've been a blue collar guy all my life, so that's just my perspective. Never been much of an elitist.

UNC was in the NIT recently with a bunch of good recruits. I'll guarantee you that KU won't be bad enough to not make the NCAA tourney this year, thanks mainly to HCBS and his staff.

HawkKlaw 10 years, 6 months ago

+1

A rational human's perspective on Bill Self!

chriz 10 years, 6 months ago

Yeah, and I don't think anyone here is calling for Bill Self's head. But don't think for a moment that Self isn't just as disappointed - if not more - than we fans are. It's not like he secretly doesn't want the kids he's recruiting, and it's not like he hasn't gotten them before. Something's up, and I'm just curious to know what it is.

Take, for example, the '08 team. What were the rankings of those recruits?

8 Chalmers 11 Arthur 14 Sherron 21 Aldrich 23 Rush 31 Russ Rob 43 Sasha 68 D-Block

The 4 best guys on the team were sophomores and juniors, ranking 8th, 11th, 14th, and 23rd. That's what it takes, folks. Given, this was arguably the best team of the decade (per Mike DeCourcy), but we've been pretty far from that recently, and I think we're gonna have to get back up there to have a real shot at the Final Four again. That is, unless we have the good fortune of playing a no-name like VCU in the Elite Eight or something...

ParisHawk 10 years, 6 months ago

"to have a real shot at the Final Four again" - wierd phrase. Since '08 we have often been 1 seeds with unmatched pre-NCAA records, so we definitely had real shots. The disappointment is more that all those real shots missed the target.

Overall though, I have to agree with your post. After '08 Self started talking about "hitting home runs in recruiting" and his biggest hits have been Xavier and Selby. The best big men have not been flocking to Self/Danny/Hudy for some reason, our highest-ranking recruits have not worked out great and most of this year's recruits aren't even practicing. Yes, I'm sure Self is very disappointed. That said, he is not allowed to talk about it.

We're a long way from Julian Wright committing on the spur of the moment without even a campus visit.

chriz 10 years, 6 months ago

Yeah, the Final Four thing may be arguable. I don't know if we would've had a 1-seed if we weren't in the Big XII. Although K-State made a heck of a push to the Elite 8 and almost beat Duke (I think, right?), the eventual champ. But the Big XII has helped us with our seeding. It's overrated, in my opinion. But I see your argument.

Jack Wilson 10 years, 6 months ago

+1 .. a big debate here last spring on this topic when many folks were trying to rationalize the Traylor/Anderson signings.

The whole deal with rankings is that they aren't the gospel. But many argue against logic and dismiss them all together ... usually to justify missing on top guys. One of the main premises I hear/read is that we have to trust coach Self, his decisions, and his coaching ... ignoring the fact that Self was in fact pursuing the higher ranked guy over the lower ranked guy in the first place.

The rankings are simply an excellent guide regarding the quality of a player. But, for example, Self might prefer the 83rd player (Tharpe) over a #40 player at the same position. Rarely does the unranked or low three star guy compare to the five star, or high four star. The exception, not the rule.

chriz 10 years, 6 months ago

"The whole deal with rankings is that they aren't the gospel. But many argue against logic and dismiss them all together ... usually to justify missing on top guys." Exactly, my friend. See the post below.

Christopher Hauser 10 years, 6 months ago

I guess Butler going to the National Championship two years in a row kind of blows your argument out of the water, just saying. Ranking means nothing and remember if Brandon Rush had not injured his knee, he would have been playing in the NBA in 08'. Zach Peters was ranked in the top 70 I believe before he gave a verbal to The University of Kansas over a year ago and his stock dropped because of this. I am not worried at all, Roy Williams did not always have the best reruiting classes but he was able to make it work and so does Bill Self. We are too spoiled, I am sure that KSU, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, and most bigger named schools would be happy to have our recruiting classes

chriz 10 years, 6 months ago

Yeah, but Butler also had Brad Stevens. That was anomaly, an exception to the rule. And the Brandon Rush thing proves my point even more. We need these guys to not only be highly ranked, but also to stay a while. That's why I'm not talking about one and done guys. They're not as common as we may think.

Also, on a side note, wasn't Zach Peters ranked in the top 10 at one point? I remember it being front page espn.com stuff when he committed, but since then, his rankings have gone down the toilet.

Rankings aren't everything, obviously, but they do mean something. And yeah, we're spoiled, but we're also Kansas. We have higher expectations, as we should. Bill Self is awesome. Heck, Tharpe might be the best point guard out of the entire 2011 class! But Self can and should do better. And he knows it. And he WILL do better. Trust me. It's just weird what's going on right now and, despite what people want to think, it's significant.

Ben Simonett 10 years, 6 months ago

Butler and VCU are 3 spots out of 20 in the last 5 final fours.

17/20 spots were filled by teams with high ranked recruits.

which side of the recruiting pool do you really think has a better chance?

Christopher Hauser 10 years, 6 months ago

My point is a 3 to 4 year guy in his third and fourth year can be just as good if not better because of experience at the college level and development than a 1 to 2 year guy. I do not know what the percentage of top 20 guys is that stay only two years or less in college but I am assuming that it is pretty high.

Jack Wilson 10 years, 6 months ago

chrishauser20: Thank you. "Rankings mean nothing." Nevermind the last 20 years of NCAA basketball. You actually think that you've made a point by referencing Butler and their national championship (that's right they don't have one). Try this .. look at the last 20 final fours, all teams, and tell me what are the exceptions, and what is the overwhelming rule.

To give you a hint, some folks do get hit by lightning.

jaybate 10 years, 6 months ago

chriz,

I am with you here in wondering if something is up.

I am not yet with you here saying something is for certain up.

All the posters above that responded made valid criticisms IMHO.

What to do?

The simplistic approach is to say, "Gee, some have poked a hole or two in my post, so I guess they must be right and I must be wrong."

But, in fact, what they are doing is not refuting your basic assertion. They are pointing out flaws and these are your chances to reformulate your position in a more sound way.

The first step is to say based on your examples, something may be up.

Talking about the possibility of cheating, or of Coach Self having trouble landing players, because of possible cheating (or something else making it hard for him) is very difficult to do with out erring.

Why?

Because one is necessarily inquiring into a "possible" situation where the facts are going to be largely concealed in the beginning, even if one were on the right track.

This exposes one to other human beings' logical tendency to be skeptical where there are few facts available in the beginning.

Alas, in our society, there seems a very unscientific and illogical tendency among even those that claim to be rational, to insist on too much existing evidence in the early stages of any speculative inquiry into possible wrong doing.

jaybate 10 years, 6 months ago

I like that the police and courts have to have a lot of evidence to charge and convict someone of a crime, because they state has vastly more power and resources than the individual citizen, so it is appropriated to condition the wielding of that power on lots of evidence in order to reduce the risk of the state abusing its asymmetric advantage.

But in discussion of this sort, where ordinary citizens are looking from the outside in at something like recruiting, it hardly seems irresponsible or inappropriate to see things that seem odd, to note them, and then to ask if something is up?

The Kennedy Assassination and 9/11 are classic cases where ordinary citizens looked at the situation, thought the official conspiracy theories presented by government to be odd, rather lacking in detail in certain regards, and in view of what facts were known, worthy of further investigation.

As a result, today, there are mountains of evidence now available to add to the weight of balance of historical assessment on both subjects.

Few facts early.

Tons of facts later.

Ill fitting explanation early.

No conclusions but many alternative explanations that fit the data as well or better than the original official explanations.

Another thing to keep in mind when inquiring into this sort of thing is this: the most prudent and sensible sounding persons invariably demand a smoking gun explanation of things, and then often when presented with such, they say, in effect, well, that's not enough smoke.

jaybate 10 years, 6 months ago

For example, many persons still doubt the JFK was killed by a conspiracy, even though the Church Commission called a decade or more later, to consider the tidal wave of new evidence that ordinary citizens investigations and time had turned up, concluded that, yes, probably, JFK was assassinated by some kind of a conspiracy.

Likewise, after 9/11, everyone wanted a smoking gun. They wanted proof that government's official conspiracy theory was wrong. So: citizens investigating produced statistical models that indicated it was virtually impossible for WTC I and WTC II to fall in their own foot prints without a controlled demolition. They people said that's not enough proof. Statistics can be fudged. Never mind that there is no indication that the statistics were fudged, they just said that's not enough smoke. So the citizen investigators said, "Okay, it is impossible for WTC VII to fall in its own footprint without being hit by anything. So the WTC VII issue was essentially scoped out of the 9/11 Commission's inquiry. So the citizen investigators produced news photos and video footage revealing 45 degree sheer angles on the up vertical girders near ground level indicative of a controlled demolition. Not enough smoke, they said. So citizen investigators produced thermite residue that would only be there if it were being used for a controlled demolition. Sorry not enough smoke.

What we learn time and again in inquiries into wrong doing is this: if the powers that be resort to the "that's not enough smoke argument," then it does not matter if we produce yet another long lost 8 mm film by Abraham Zapruder film clearly showing Lee Harvey Oswald waving an American flag out one window of the Texas School Book Depository and a guy with a rifle in another window, and a guy with a rifle down on the Grassy Knoll, this hypothetical new footage would be said to have possibly been planted and phoney, and even if it were real, we could not be absolutely certain that Oswald did not quickly put the flag down and fire his crude Manlicher Carcano rifle at rapid speed and do the deed alone. We could not be absolutely certain that the men with the guns in other locations were not police and Secret Service men operating under cover to protect the president from lone gunmen assassins like Lee Harvey Oswald.

jaybate 10 years, 6 months ago

So for this reason, alone, one has to be very prudent about speaking of wrong doing.

Wrong doers by nature conceal what they do as much as possible.

And it is only when they are at their most powerful and most riddled with hubris that we hear even snippets of what they do from their own mouths.

Some persons like to look for truth, especially if they have drunk of it deeply a time or two.

But perhaps more persons like to win arguments. They like to find the flaws in others' reasoning in search of truth. They like to assert a contradicting fact, or logic, or two, and say, "what a good person am I?" They like to be right, more than they care about searching for the truth. These persons you must recognize and ignore.

But there is another category of person that is trying to be helpful to you in questing after truth. That person also points out your errors and does so in hopes of helping you to get better in your search for truth, to help you get closer to the truth you seek.

This category of person needs recognizing too, because this category really can help you get closer to the truth, but weeding out stumbles on your part.

There is nothing wrong with stumbling when searching for the truth. Stumbling is part of the search for truth. Even uncovering small truth is a climb up a very steep mountain full of loose rocks put their by those that wish to keep the truth concealed. Who would not stumble on such a climb? Only those that put the loose rocks there on the way down from concealing the truth.

jaybate 10 years, 6 months ago

Truth is often elusive, often non existent in the realm of certainty, mostly because those that would conceal it have placed it in the realm of probability intentionally, where doubt and deniability would henceforth hopefully be plausible.

But facts, Chriz, it turns out are hard to hide. They have a tendency of surfacing over time like rocks coming up to the surface in a corn field repeatedly being plowed for replanting. The rocks of fact just keep coming up to the surface.

It is this tendency of facts to surface that drives so much of the disinformation heaped on to so many things in our lives by propaganda and pay-ops experts.

The thinking by the evil doers (always good to play take what they give us) seems to go like this: we evil doers can't stop the rock facts from coming to the surface, but we can sew a whole bunch of other unrelated rock facts and fake rock facts to the point that no one can ever be absolutely certain of which rocks were real, and which were sewn.

In another metaphor, this sort of tactic is called poisoning the well of information.

And then the evil doers smugly insist on citizen investigators explaining all the rocks. :-)

And then they sew some more. :-)

But here is the thing: the more they sew the false rocks, the more we must resort to accounting for the tactic of sewing fake rocks and the more we must ask: who would sew the fake rocks that had nothing to hide?

Good luck on your quest and remember complexity and bungling and luck good and bad must be accounted for amidst the rock facts and rock fictions.

I for one look forward to reading more on the topic.

And one thing you can count, if citizens start wondering what you are wondering, a ton of facts will surface inexorably, even if the counter spinners were to begin doing their thing.

Rock Chalk!

chriz 10 years, 6 months ago

Jaybate, I love ya, but I can't say that I read the entire thing. I will say, though, that you may be on to something about the luck thing. And maybe one year of bad luck is contagious, especially these days when the LeBrons, Dwanyes, and Boshes want to all play together and conquer the world.

But luck is ALWAYS at play. Acknowledging that, my next question is, if it's not luck, what is it? Is it realignment? Is it laziness? Is it geography? I'll bet Self has a pretty good answer, but for whatever reason, we didn't hear it this time around. All we heard was, "It's hard." I wonder what it really is, if it isn't luck, that is.

jaybate 10 years, 6 months ago

chriz,

Read...

http://nymag.com/daily/sports/2010/03...

If it can happen to Norm, why can't it be happening to Bill?

ku_foaf 10 years, 6 months ago

Sometimes the players are more loose and play like they have nothing to lose! Those are often fun seasons, a slow start but big improvements later. Maybe things will really sync in early March ...

jaybate 10 years, 6 months ago

“I think a lot of people have said that,” Self said. “We haven’t recruited near as many McDonald’s All-Americans. Since I’ve been here we’ve signed seven or eight (seven). We’ve done pretty well with the guys we’ve gotten, though.”

84% W&L Statement.

Love Coach Self's understatement.

nuleafjhawk 10 years, 6 months ago

After that last guy left KU, I wasn't thrilled about hiring Bill Self. Shows what a basketball genius I am.

After 8 seasons full of a LOT of W's and one National Championship, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that he knows what he's doing. Even if he doesn't get every recruit he wants, ( do any of you that work full time get everything you want at your job? I don't ) he seems to do pretty well with what he has.

The fact that Sef is evidently a better Coach than a recruiter doesn't bother me a bit. Much better than the opposite scenario. (see Texas Longhorns)

jaybate 10 years, 6 months ago

nuleafjhawk,

You were hardly alone doubting Self was the right guy for the job. I did, too.

I had a parochial prejudice about Okie Ballers.

I knew the tree from Iba, to Don Haskins/Jack Hartman/Eddie Sutton to Bill Self was the most influential, and possibly soon to become the most important, line of development in basketball philosophy as of the point of Self's hiring.

But I believed that it was time for KU to shed Carolina Ball, and for KU to reconnect with Doc Allen's tree through some descendent of Ralph Miller's. I wanted KU to get back to a more direct lineage of Allen and KU Ball.

I felt that Harp's lack of success and quick departure broke the link of connection and I wanted to get it back.

Owens brought Bruce Drake's influence, despite working under Allen and Harp. I never liked it, though I surely admired and respected Coach Owens the person and coach. What can I say? I just didn't like the way they played the game even when they won and Owens won a lot and would have won a lot more with that team he left Larry Brown.

LB brought Dean ball filtered through NYC ball, and it was a great brand of ball, but Dean ball has always seemed keenly influenced by Dean's mentor at Air Force and so seemed to me to be an exceedingly weak link back to Allen's strain of KU ball.

Roy brought an even purer version of Dean Ball. In the beginning, it was as if Dean were coaching KU through an assistant. Who knows? Maybe Dean was. We know Roy wasnt allowed to recruit east of the Big Easy. Dean was a crafty, inventive spider with a huge web. :-) But over time, Roy's own genius began to surface in things like the Secondary Break and reliance more and more on maximizing trips and so on. But good as Roy's game was, it too was only vaguely connected to Allen's KU ball IMHO.

So when it came time to hire Roy's replacement, I was hoping foremost to find some guy that had worked for Ralph Miller and could wire his game back into KU crimson and blue. I still think Miller was an under recognized genius. Alas, none surfaced, nor have I found one since in my idle searching.

jaybate 10 years, 6 months ago

My second preference was to look into Kentucky's chain of coaches and see if there was one that might reconnect a lineage back through Rupp and thence to Allen. Rupp might have focused only on Allen's running game, but Rupp's game was clearly connected to Allen's. Pat Riley, were he willing to coach college ball, might have been a good one. But he was too old, and the more recent UK people seem to have had little or no connection to Rupp ball. Slick Rick played his own game that came out of his Providence days. Eddie coached at UK, and crashed their too, but he was Iba all the way.

So when everyone jumped on the Self bandwagon, I didn't, even though I understood he was a very good coach of Eddie Ball and that Eddie Ball was a swell brand of ball, but...

I just was not ready to see the ghost of Henry Iba haunting Allen Field House. Iba and Phog had been so diametrically opposed in so many ways.

But the Montagues and the Capulets should never have rained on Romeo and Juliet's love affair.

And so I looked at Self from the stand point of he's a new direction for The Legacy, especially after my nephew, who was then more savvy about today's game than I was, said, "Unc, Bill Self is a great, great coach. He's perfect for KU. He is exactly the right guy for the job. He will recruit tons of talent, talent like KU has never had, he can coach and he will win rings. You're acting like you're over the hill, Unc. You'll see."

It was at that point that I knew was old. :-)

jaybate 10 years, 6 months ago

Self's first season I kvetched a lot and wished we had hired a coach that played a running game instead of 70 point take what they give us. I didn't like that he couldn't get much out of Jeff Graves, whom I thought could have been a great one if the right coach had gotten ahold of him. I didn't like seeing Aaron walking the ball up the court. I didn't like hearing Self's excuses about how they had just lost three lottery picks and didn't have instant lottery picks to replace them. I hated seeing Kevin gluing and driving at the 3, instead of getting out on the break.

But over the course of that first season, I began to see all the incredibly smart moves Self was making with players...how he was putting guys in roles they could fit, if they only would, and how he was getting them to play hard, and how his defense really was beginning to be a force to be reckoned with. I wasn't sure about his ethics yet, but I decided I might have been wrong.

But I really did not convert over to full support of him until mid way through his second season. By then he was revealing he was a prodigy on the way to becoming a maestro at this game of 70 point take what they give us.

jaybate 10 years, 6 months ago

And Self increasingly revealed that he really understood the KU tradition...The Legacy. He was calculated in manipulating it for his own ends, and careful not to see he was a part of it, that he was just the coach, and careful to say he would always keep his options open about leaving for the pros. This made me uneasy at first, but increasingly it seemed a mature approach to things and Self seemed to want to do KU full justice, not just use it as a stepping stone.

By the end of the second season, I concluded KU had made a great hire of a coach capable of becoming one of the best of his generation.

But it was his third season that bowled me over and made me begin to think Self was not just a fine coach, but a genius of the game with the potential to be one of the all timers.

Henceforth, I was just endlessly schooled by the guy. Most coaches I can see through very shortly. They have a small bag of tricks. They never play all the keys on the piano.

But the more I watched Self, the more I began to learn not just about Self, but about 70 point take what they give us, about how sophisticated it really was, about how tough it is to beat when it is played well, and about his philosophy of getting better, which is contagious,and profound at the same time in the way that it requires one to take and hold a focus on the positive. This is more like a logical positivism than the conventional optimism. It is rooted in discovering what one doesn't know one doesn't know, and then focusing on getting better at something real and concrete, instead of some metaphysical notion of improvement. People have real roles in Self Ball. They get assigned early based on the distribution of skills among the players on hand. Everyone is supposed to take a role, find out what they don't know they don't know, and then work like hell on getting to know it, then get better and better at doing it as much as possible each day. This is a truly positivist view.

jaybate 10 years, 6 months ago

And then Self began to reveal how he could change and adapt and incorporate new elements into 70 point take what they give us almost at will. This was when I began to see the basketball coaching equivalent of a Picasso, of someone that could just find the colors whenever he needed them and could find the picture rather than look for it.

And then there were the insights into Boot Camp philosophy and how that dovetails with 70 point take what they give us.

And then there was the dead give away of his syntax that I should have recognized from the beginning, what I call his Eisenhower syntax, the syntax of a guy who cannot help but think of systems of things and cannot help but have his speech effected by how he views simulteneities.

And as he has matured and aged on the job, his language has left the residue of all genius by getting more and more distilled, while losing none of its simultaneity.

There's a lot happening up there under his hair, whether or not his hair is really his, or not.

Sooner, or later, Self will make a mistake, be found to have done something wrong, not just lose some games he should have won, but make a wrong choice about something and someone will really try to take him down a notch; this happens to all public figures that manifest genius over a length of time in the spotlight.

No human being can be perfect.

I hope people will remember that when/if a mistake by him surfaces, that people will be forgiving and not ridiculously let down. He is valuable to KU, because he has coached great basketball and shared his genius with The Legacy, and because he has tried to be a pretty good guy while doing it.

But no one is perfect.

And no one who swims in waters as reputedly corrupt as college basketball recruiting, and who wins 84% of the time doing so, apparently doing it the right way, cannot help but making some enemies.

And given that the media and gaming industry give some appearance of being symbiotic, and given that I posted a link just yesterday from New York magazine, wherein an AAU coach and a juco coach openly ridiculed Norm Roberts for doing things "the right way" at St. Johns, I don't see how Coach Self can avoid getting some mud flung at him by the bums of the game before he is through.

Rock Chalk, Coach Self, Rock Chalk!

HawkKlaw 10 years, 6 months ago

or see that stupid UK coach who has yet to make a Final Four.

Rae Bricil 10 years, 6 months ago

Similar to what Chriz and HEM are saying is that it is not about rankings of the players but rather why is Bill Self missing out on the players he is recruiting so hard? Why are his main targets not coming to KU anymore? This is not a derogatory comment on him just curious if any reasons have been identified? I mean some say conference realignment but it hasn't had an effect on Baylor or Texas. Understand last year with the uncertainty caused by the NBA but what is going on this year? Was Tacz the only big that we heavily recruited? And why not even try to go after the kid from Olathe Northwest--was Tacz looked at as a definite? Thoughts?

chriz 10 years, 6 months ago

You nailed it, btr555. This is what I've been trying to ask.

I've heard (I think from Bill Self) that it's difficult to get kids to come here from the coast because of the drive time. While ALL schools can get them on an official since the school can pay for it, it's more difficult to arrange a non-official because the kid has to pay for it. And they usually drive, and no kid wants to drive to KU. Why that would stop someone from playing at KU, I have no idea. But maybe it does.

So the next question would be whether it's ALWAYS been this hard, or have the recruiting rules changed since 2008? Also, let's keep in mind that even the highly-ranked guys that Self DID get, he was rarely their first choice. In many cases, their first choice didn't work out.

So yeah, it's not so much of an obsession with highly-ranked recruits, but with Self missing on his targets. Maybe even though we are a top-five program, we shouldn't expect top-five recruits for geographical reasons? And/or maybe the staff just isn't working as hard on the recruiting trail as they used to? If so, that's fine. If I were them, I would want to take it a little easier for a year or two. I just wonder what it is...ah, beating a dead horse...I know... :)

chriz 10 years, 6 months ago

By the way, I think Tarc WAS considered a lock. I've heard that Self told other kids that Tarc's people told the KU staff he was coming to KU. It's just weird.

63Jayhawk 10 years, 6 months ago

Like the rest of you, I believe Bill Self is a great coach. I also believe he is an honest coach. Honesty may not always win over young recruits. So much of today's society is about self (not Bill). These kids want to hear how great they are and how they will play and start in their first year. I think they seldom hear the latter from Coach Self. Also, consider that although KU is a great school with the best basketball tradition in the country, there are other, more attractive, places to live than Lawrence. I'm not really knocking Lawrence, but as one who prefers warmer weather, there are many other places that would be more attractive to me.

I usually like the character of the players to whom Bill Self awards scholarships. Perry Ellis is a prime example, smart, humble, and very talented. Bill Self spent four years recruiting him. Bill and his staff do a great job of developing talent...that may not have been recognized by others.

chriz 10 years, 6 months ago

Seasoned teams with great talent and good coaching win championships.

Ben Simonett 10 years, 6 months ago

Blue Blood Recruiting Class Rankings Last 3 Years (Rivals):

KU 23rd 29th N/R

UK 1st 1st 3rd

UNC 4th 6th 7th

Duke 10th 2nd N/R

Recruiting doesn't seem to have been that "Hard" at KU's peir schools the last 3 years, what a rediculous excuse.

jaybate 10 years, 6 months ago

bennybob,

Self has won 84% of his games, and 30+ games a season the last two, plus conference titles, plus 1 or 2 seeds in the NCAA tourney.

I am left with only these possible conclusions:

a) The folks at Rival don't know how to rank players accurately;

b) Rivals knows how to ranked players, but is intentionally biasing the rankings to make UK, UNC and Duke recruits look better than they are;

c ) Self is a vastly better coach than Cal, Roy and Coach Cheap Shots, because he fares as well, or better with sharply inferior talent; or

d) some combination of a, b and c above.

Am I missing anything? :-)

jaybate 10 years, 6 months ago

hiballhawk,

I love posting above you too.:-)

Alohahawk 10 years, 6 months ago

$$$$ Who knows? There may, or may not, be money involved. Rumors abound about one of the above mentioned programs. Maybe there are other programs or coaches that fit that mold as well.

Regarding KU missing out on Tarc. That is a very big question. He said he had a gut feeling, and that he fell in love with Arizona. Did he "fall in love" with a coed dropped in front of him during his visit. Maybe they promised him Mexican maid service. Maybe he hates cold weather (like me, except I stuck it out while I was at KU.) Didn't he and Tharpe play together on the same team for a couple of years? That would seem a natural plus. Didn't Tarc, among other recruits, attend the "Legends of the Phog" game? Surely that must have impressed him? Or maybe it overwhelmed him and he thought he could never live up to such glorification and idolatry. Who but he really knows why he ended up choosing Arizona over KU. With the effort Self and his staff gave to his recruitment, I don't fault them for losing Tarc. There just has to have been something else that gave him that special "gut feeling".

As for recruiting Cauley. There must have been something that turned Self off about Cauley. Maybe Cauley had never liked KU and informed Self that he would not consider being a Jayhawk. Afterall, he did have K State on his list. (Half my family loved K State, but I always hated them, and I grew up in Topeka. You couldn't have paid me to attend K State.) The same could be true about a number of highly ranked recruits. Don't read it as KU didn't recruit Cauley, but perhaps Cauley refused to be recruited by KU. Again, pure speculation, and who knows.

Finally: The internet is widespread, and is open to interpretation by anyone and everyone. If a recruit were to read what they consider to be defamatory remarks made about a recruit, (maybe even themselves), or a previous player, on a college board, it might just turn them negative toward a program. We all must be carefull what we say, or it can easily backfire. Thus, Jaybate's constant ending remark, "No malice intended."

Ben Simonett 10 years, 6 months ago

I completely disagree with your last point, if anyone takes anything posted on an internet message board seriously they really need to get mental help.

This is the internet, where people hide behind the conver of anonymity to hurl all kinds of insults and slanderous claims at individuals they have not met, and probably never will.

if what people post on message boards really impacted recruiting Kentucky would never sign another prospect again, have you ever trolled a UK basketball forum before? take the small sample of idiots we get on here from time to time and multiply it by a couple thousand.

Alohahawk 10 years, 6 months ago

To each their own. As your second paragraph so poetically illustrates, you appreciate your anonymity. But I disagree with the rest of your post:

I've never trolled on another college team's board, although I have read message boards on ESPN, ZagsBlog, and other boards that aren't college team affiliated. So, I can't relate to any other college boards. Personally, I wouldn't lower myself to reading a Kenstinky board. Trolls who post disparaging remarks about the Jayhawks on this board seem to visit for no other reason than to make themselves feel good. You know: "Hear me. I exist. I am." And perhaps, to attempt to stir up animosity. Maybe that's the high point in their lives, the feeling they are supporting their team by writing worthless tripe. It sounds like that's the category you feel all posters fall into. IMHO, the best way to make a troll feel less inferior than they already are is to ignore them completely, as if they don't exist.

As for your first statement, stating, in essence, that no one on this board believes anything anyone else says, ever, then you truly must believe that we all belong in the movie, "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest". Also, that we are all wasting our time and energy writing messages on this board.

BTW, if you truly mean what you state, then we can't believe anything you post, either. Ever.

This is a free country (mostly) and everyone should be allowed to disagree on a subject. But there are many ways to gain someone's attention, and you don't have to throw water in their face to do it. Which is the way you stated your case.

As for the reason I send messages to this board, it's because I'm a member of the Jayhawk Nation and try to project what I consider to be the truth about the subjects being discussed. I try to stay away from the words "always" and "never", because they are rare, unless discussing math or science, and do not relate to human nature. Hence, as I said in my original post "it might just turn them negative". I didn't say every recruit. Yes, a number of posters may agree with you. But not everyone. And I would be most surprised if there aren't a few recruits who believe what they read on these boards. Which, despite your diatribe, is what I still and always will believe, even if your belligerent attitude tries to convince me otherwise.

Ben Simonett 10 years, 6 months ago

I agree with you,

my post wasn't ment to equate all posters on this board to mud slingers. i was just pointing out that those posts can be found all over the internet, and that anything you read on the internet should be taken with a grain of salt. it definitely shouldn't be a factor when deciding on where your going to play basketball in college.

jaybate 10 years, 6 months ago

bennybob,

I find quite a lot of information and some truth on this board, enough that I keep coming back.

One has to analyze what is said fairly carefully, but the same goes double for listening to authorities speaking from talking points crafted by paid Public Relations persons, or media strategists.

The internet has made one thing clear. Before its existence, there was too much opinion molding going on and not enough dialogue to get at truth capable of holding consensus.

Also, I am not down on the anonymity of the internet.

Why?

I liken the anonymity of the internet to the anonymity of the voting booth.

Time and again, if we use voting machines that aren't designed to be hacked (and without paper trails), we find that voters alone, and with anonymity, inside a voting booth make surprisingly good decisions about complex issues that the experts struggle with not much better.

If I were asked for one Constitutional Amendment here is what I would ask for: The Constitution guaranties each citizens right to internet privacy and anonymity and excludes this right from corporations.

Students of the erosion of human beings rights by granting corporations the rights of human citizens, plus a whole raft of special corporate rights will understand immediately where I am heading with this one.

Ben Simonett 10 years, 6 months ago

My comment wasn't to say that anonymity of the internet is a bad thing. it was mearly an observation that many of the statements posted by individuals about other individuals on the internet would never be said in a face to face interaction.

side note: if you truly want internet privacy, stay off google and facebook.

Alohahawk 10 years, 6 months ago

I agree with your comments this go around. Especially about Google and Facebook.

In your original response, I took offense that you believe, or at least the way I interpreted what you wrote, that no one states the truth on a message board. Because I try to be true to my heart, and when I post something, I am being honest in my beliefs. Perhaps I'm being naive, but I like to believe that other posters are just as honest.

Ben Simonett 10 years, 6 months ago

The impact of recruitng has a delayed effect on the the program. the wins Self has had over the past 2 seasons are primary the result of his top 5 recruiting classes in '08 and '09.

This recent batch of recruiting woes should begin to impact on court performance next season. take this years team and replace TT and Trob with Mclemore and Ellis and i think you've got a borderline top 25 squad as opposed to what i beleive will finish as 7-9 ranked team this year.

btw the correct answer is C

Scott Smetana 10 years, 6 months ago

I love being a Jayhawk. An off year finishes up ranked 7 to 9!!

Scott Oswalt 10 years, 6 months ago

hihawk - you must be high.

Reed & Morningstar were good players. Players that were around 4+ years, that learned the system under Self. These guys were "glue guys" which every program needs. You're insane if you think we need all 5 star players like Kentucky. I doubt Calipari will win a championship at Kentucky, because they have too many one and dones (with MASSIVE egos) and the players can't learn the system and develop.

I will admit HCBS recruiting has taken a hit recently, but he will always sign good players. It just might not be players like Shabazz.

kerbyd 10 years, 6 months ago

Just because us old farts love KU (I am not even an alum) does not mean all these kids are falling all over themselves to come here. We think that because KU has great tradition, a great place to play, Wilt, Phog, the original rules of basketball, blah, blah, blah, that these kids will be begging to come here. As was mentioned above, Self cannot talk about why a recruit did not come here. That would get him in a whole heap of trouble even if it would placate some of you. I am excited about this season because I want to see what Self can do without the 5 star guys. Like JB pointed out, all we have to fear is fear itself. I'm gonna enjoy the ride however far it goes. Just wish I was close enough to see any of the games.

brooksmd 10 years, 6 months ago

"As was mentioned above, Self cannot talk about why a recruit did not come here. That would get him in a whole heap of trouble even if it would placate some of you."....Exactly. If you want to know why a recruit didn't come to KU, ask him. I am dumbfounded as to why Tarc didn't pick KU with all the obvious positives it presents for a big man. But the reason is inside his head and I doubt he will tell me. Personally, if I had the opportunity as a big man to go to KU, I'd pay my own way.

jgkojak 10 years, 6 months ago

His recruiting has gone down because he has a reputation for sitting good players for two years. Look at Elijah and Travis - now, Travis wasn't going anywhere but KU, but I'm sure Elijah had some thoughts last year about how he'd be starting anywhere, and I mean anywhere, else.

He made a comment about this year that Elijah is the kind of player who benefits from "playing through his mistakes" - well, duh. There are a LOT of guys like that - and when you are so loaded every year you make 'em sit, they don't develop and you end up with situations like we have seen time and again with Self teams: Bucknell, the core of the '08 class as freshmen on the bench, while Self plays a hurt Langford. N. Iowa, Self sits Little and Releford - ONE of those guys would have made a huge diff in that game. VCU, Selby hasn't been allowed to play through his mistakes, so when he's out there he's awful - but Self can't not play him because that will hurt his rep.

I am actually excited this year, because what you see is what you have with this team, and I think its probably EASIER to develop chemistry and coach guys where you know all the parts and there's not a lot of confusion.

I actually think, even if we have 3-4 more losses this year, this team will be deadly in March - precisely because there is no confusion or doubts about what their roles are.

jaybate 10 years, 6 months ago

I think aliases may be overlooking something rather more obvious. Could Coach Self be being subjected to something comparable to a recruiting black list for doing things the right way. Norm Roberts apparently was. See this link.

http://nymag.com/daily/sports/2010/03/aau_coaches_no_longer_pretendi.html

If there were a lot of AAU and juco coaches out there like the ones mentioned in the story linked above, would we expect them to treat Coach Self much differently than Norm Roberts?

What if there were a small group of coaches, say, including Billy Donovan and Bill Self, that said something like, "We've had enough of this crap from this sub group of AAU coaches and juco coaches, and we're not going to play their game. What if this small group had just won rings and had quite a bit of job security? What would the response of the sub group of AAU coaches and juco coaches look like? What would be the likely phenomena associated with it?

Would we see a coach like Norm Roberts get run at St. Johns's for doing things the right way?

Would we see Bill Self's and Bill Donovan's and Coach K's (and maybe some others) recruiting suffer some, despite still landing a few top kids that want to be with programs that do it the right way?

Would we see lesser coaches, coaches with no rings, coaches that some times leave schools with infractions in their wake, coaches like, say, John Calipari, cleaning up? Getting a seemingly inordinate share of OADs and so on?

I wonder?

I have no smoking gun. And I'm not picking on John Calipari. Maybe he is one of the guys doing it the right way. Maybe that is why he wasn't very deep last year.

Bu maybe there are others.

I just wonder

Todd Mobray 10 years, 6 months ago

Jaybate, this is not a veiled criticism, its a compliment. Why not start a blog? or do you have one already? I would subscribe.

jaybate 10 years, 6 months ago

Thank you. That is very kind. But I don't want to have to maintain a blog. This is my recreation. I believe in this sort of a forum of exchange with both professional and citizen journalism intermingled. America needs more community that intermingles professional and citizen content. I wish the pros had more time and willingness to get involved in the threads. I am a huge fan of The Newell Post, because that really breaks down the firewall between professionals and citizen and shows that the professionals need not fear the citizens and vice versa; that in fact Newell and board rats have an impact/glue relationship and can groove in a journalistic jam.

One or our problems as a society is that we let the oligarchs of the hard copy/noninteractive era separate the professionals too far from the citizens, so that the professionals became molders of public opinion rather than collaborative creators of public opinion. It was bad for journalists, too, because it divided them into a few journalists and lots of water carriers.

When the professionals and the citizens pull together they are hard to stop. If they pull together for the oligarchy on an issue, something gets done. If they pull together against the oligarchy on some issue, something gets stopped.

This is good for the oligarchy, too, though their arrogance and fear of losing power often prevents them from seeing this. Oligarchies need to be saved from themselves about as often as the rest of us need to be. And I would argue that oligarchies need for saving is even more extreme, because when they screw up all hell breaks lose for awhile, as has happened the last decade or so.

Putting up a firewall between professionals and citizens is how unenlightened oligarchies divide and conquer public opinion.

Enlightened oligarchies, like those that wrote the Declaration of Independence, and later the Constitution and Bill of Rights, that created many of the New Deal reforms, that created the Civil Rights Act, etc. understand that professional journalism and citizens go hand in hand as a check and balance on the power of oligarchy to do really, really stupid stuff.

The more we as a society return to intermingling in public discourse--both its professional journalistic side and its citizen journalistic side--the more effective our society will be at getting better.

This forum is a special opportunity to create informed opinion and consensus building--to show that it can happen happily and democratically and constructively. Each example like this that occurs encourages Americans to try this in other forums addressing other issue spectrums.

Rock Chalk!

Alohahawk 10 years, 6 months ago

+1 But not according to good ol' bennybob. Read his post about a dozen posts up. He doesn't seem to believe anything that anyone posts as being accurate and true.

Ben Simonett 10 years, 6 months ago

The playing time argument doesn't hold water this year, there was no possibility Tarc wasn't going to get significant minutes next year, probably a starter, at worst first guy off the bench and a solid 16-22 mins/game.

Self Uses a 5 guard rotation, next year we'll have:

Tharpe Mclemore EJ Releford

that means Marcus Smart/ Daniel House would have been in the rotation the second one of them stepped on campus.

Kye Clark 10 years, 6 months ago

Agreed about Tarc and the whole available playing time argument, especially considering he went to Arizona which has a boatload of talent in the post either already there or coming in next year.

Bion Ostrander 10 years, 6 months ago

I'm just happy b-ball season is here! Various people noting concerns with recruiting, etc. I don't second guess HCBS at all, I know him and Staff constantly work their tails off. Regarding the 2011 class (McLemore, Traylor, Tharpe, Lindsay), I give coach a pass. It was extremely difficult to recruit for that period because of unique circumstances: 1) HCBS has pointed out before, for some strange reason, many of the top recruits in this class tended to sign their commitments early for some reason; 2) to compound the first problem, Self didn't know who and how many to recruit because he didn't know who would be leaving early, Marcus was a given, but he didn't know what would happen with Markieff, Robinson. and Taylor - - all were on some NBA potential draft boards. If Self over-recruits and has to turn kids away, that stigma sticks with the program a long time and other coaches will use that against him. That said, I don't think the Xavier and Selby thing worked out well for KU, I would prefer to stay away from the one and done thing. Given the above, I am concerned we don't have a better 2012 recruiting class so far, and there is not much left now. I am concerned that again this year, we are starting to look at unrated players (players not ranked by Rivals, etc.) because nothing else is left. KU really missed out on some gems, but that is the risk if you go for the top recruits and miss. Even Self built up the expectations for this class for the past 6 months, so I was expecting a huge haul. The last I knew, Muhammad, #1 recruit not committed, but looks like KU has backed off because he has lost interest, he only took 2 visits so far, Kentucky and A&M (what!). There are only 3 other recruits in the top 30 not committed (#3 and #4 spots), and KU is not on any of their lists...but KY is (UG)! KU's recruiting must be impacted by something, but not sure. KU won't attract the #1 or #2 "shooting/scoring" guards very often because HCBS likes to score down low with the high/low pass (and BS does not play an NBA dribble drive offense like KY), and score secondarily from the #1 to #3 spots...and that is fine. Unfortunately, the other coaches use that against HCBS. Still, big picture, no complaints, HCBS is the best....

Ben Simonett 10 years, 6 months ago

paragraphs are a good thing.

some good points but hard to read.

brooksmd 10 years, 6 months ago

Calisleazy...."We hold our players to a higher standard." lol

ku_foaf 10 years, 6 months ago

EVERY good program and coach has recruiting "slumps" where the combination of signed players don't quite work out as the coach preferred. Roy most definitely had one in the very late 90s. Kentucky had that a few years ago, North Carolina, and Duke. All in the '00s. Fortunately for them, they didn't last. It won't for us, either.

No offense to the players that signed. Self is good a seeing potential others do not. We definitely have a good team.

Andy Tweedy 10 years, 6 months ago

While I am quite sure you are right about Self's "seeing potential" I would say it has more to do with "getting the best out of players!" In my book, HCBS is one bad dude!!! If you've never been in a room with the guy, his presence is just awesome! He comes across as every bit your buddy and your leader. I'm glad he's ours...

jgkojak 10 years, 6 months ago

I wouldn't trade Self for any other coach. Period.

But I do wish he would develop the players he has and stop shooting for the one and done.

nuleafjhawk 10 years, 6 months ago

One more thing - No matter how well or poorly our football team is doing in a given season - I always welcome back Basketball Season ( Cue the harps and angels singing ) like a long lost friend.

Man - I just LOVE KU Basketball ..................ROCK CHALK JAYHAWK, BABY!!

nuleafjhawk 10 years, 6 months ago

by the way LJW - I hate your stupid nazi "caps lock" rule

Alohahawk 10 years, 6 months ago

You're right. I sent that through all in caps except "w", which was in lower case. As you see, it all came out lower case.

Tonight is opening night! "Fasten your seatbelts. It could be a bumpy 'night'." (ie. "ride this season")

RCJHGKU!!! (ie. Should all be in caps.)

Kristen Downing 10 years, 6 months ago

I would love to ask a Kentucky fan what it is like to not get attached to any of their players, knowing they will be gone. I like watching the kids develop and even follow them to the NBA. I feel zippo for Josh and Xavier. Although Xavier at least seemed like it was a hard decision for him. Maybe Tarc. did not come to KU because Sean Miller reminded him there will probably already be a 7 footer on our team next year and that might take some of the attention from him. Just guessing. It can't be the way Arizona is playing. They did not look well coached in their first couple of games.

Alohahawk 10 years, 6 months ago

+1 Without a program guide, name recognition is definitely a problem at Kenstinky.

You've noticed, too, how poorly Arizona has performed so far this pre-season. Especially Josh Turner, who has been less than stellar. Losing him and gaining Tharpe would seem to be our good fortune.

Note: We may have lost out on Tarc, but if Withey gives us two good years, I'm hoping we can get Noel in the 2013 class. With Tarc in the fold, we probably wouldn't have stood a chance of getting Noel. He's supposed to be a blocking machine. One problem would be Noel could easily be a OAD. Or, if the NBA were to drop the one year limit, he sounds like he would go direct to the league.

Dennis Mahorney 10 years, 6 months ago

Townsend beat the "mighty fighting Holy Family" 51-43...lets not let our guard down.

David Brown 10 years, 6 months ago

Anyone think that the instability of our Big 12 conference has hurt our recruiting? I'm assuming other coaches are using that against us by telling recruits various stories about travel time; conference matchups; time zone issues; national exposure etc etc. Would a crumbling conference cause a recruit to think twice?

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