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Tuesday, April 7, 2009

Memphis not hiring recruit’s father

Carl Henry says he will not be joining Pastner’s staff

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Carl Henry will not be hired by the University of Memphis as director of basketball operations, the former Kansas University basketball guard said Tuesday.

Henry told the Journal-World that the Sporting News report that said he’d likely join new U of M coach Josh Pastner’s staff, so that his son, Xavier, would remain committed to Memphis, was not true.

“I can’t work at Memphis. I don’t want to work at Memphis. If I took that job I couldn’t do what I do — work with kids,” said Henry, who coaches the Athletes First AAU team in Oklahoma City. “I am not going to coach my kids (in college). I’d rather watch my kids play. I’ve told the (college) coaches before, ‘I don’t want to coach them. It’s your job now.’’’

Carl Henry reported that both Xavier, who signed with Memphis in November, and C.J. Henry, a Memphis freshman walk-on, have officially been released from their letters-of-intent. Both KU and Kentucky have been sent the paperwork, so coaches from those schools can speak with Xavier and C.J., now.

Carl said Xavier and C.J. would decide whether to stay with Memphis or commit to KU or Kentucky in the next couple weeks.

“Xavier is leaving tomorrow for Oregon (and Nike Hoop Summit). After that he goes to New York (for Jordan Classic, April 18),” Carl Henry said. “The only way they could do it is if C.J. and Xavier talk (soon) and decide something between themselves. Our family likes to sit down and discuss things. That’s the way we do things and Xavier will be gone two weeks.

“I’d like them to get this over with. The school year is about over and they need to know where they are going to college. Whether they stay together (at Memphis) or go somewhere together or split up, they have to decide.”

Carl reiterated what he said last week in that Xavier would like to attend KU for a year, then enter the 2010 NBA Draft.

Meanwhile, C.J. Henry told Memphis TV Station FOX 13 that he felt the hiring of Pastner (to replace John Calipari) was “a good hire. I think he’ll do well on the job.”

C.J. Henry said he was in no hurry to finalize his plans for next season. He said he will wait and see who Pastner will be hiring to complete his staff. Xavier also is in no hurry.

“I guess he (Xavier) will wait and see who the assistant coaches are,” C.J. said. “It’s about player development and getting guys to the next level and preparing them, not only on the court, but off the court. It’s going to take a couple weeks. As of right now, he’s still signed here and he’s coming here (Memphis).”

C.J. was amused by the reports his dad might join Pastner’s staff.

“He doesn’t want to sit in a suit and sit on the bench. He’d rather be in the stands cheering us on, doing what he wants to do,” C.J. said of Carl.

Lance update: Mike DeCourcy of the Sporting News told KC Radio 810 that one reason Brooklyn (N.Y.) Lincoln High standout Lance Stephenson has not yet committed to KU is KU needs to know if Stephenson’s BornReady.TV Website violates any NCAA rules. Stephenson has been subject of a running Web documentary of his life. The series has also been shown on TV as well as the Internet. Ads appear on the Website.

Vitale likes KU: ESPN’s Dick Vitale has picked Kansas as his preseason No. 1 team for next season.

“Believing Sherron Collins and Cole Aldrich will be back, Rock Chalk Jayhawk fans should be thrilled. Bill Self has a couple of recruits coming in plus transfer Jeff Withey will help. The Morris twins will get better and better,” Vitale wrote on ESPN.com.

He ranks Duke No. 2, followed by Syracuse, Purdue and Michigan State.

More awards: KU coach Bill Self on Tuesday was named ESPN.com’s college coach of the year. Sophomore center Cole Aldrich was tapped most improved player in the country. ... KU’s Aldrich was named first-team all-NCAA Tournament by Rivals.com. Others on the first team: North Carolina’s Ty Lawson and Wayne Ellington, Oklahoma’s Blake Griffin and Michigan State’s Goran Suton. KU’s Sherron Collins was tapped second team with Michigan State’s Kalin Lucas, Pitt’s Sam Young, UNC’s Tyler Hansbrough and Villanova’s Dante Cunningham.

Tenth rated: KU finished 10th in the final USA Today/ESPN Top 25 poll. North Carolina was tapped first, of course, followed by Michigan State, UConn, Villanova, Louisville, Pittsburgh, Oklahoma, Missouri, Memphis and KU.

Smith speaks: Former KU player and North Carolina coach Dean Smith, 78, was interviewed by SI.com’s Larry Keith after the Tar Heels’ national title victory over Michigan State.

“This is coach Williams’ night,” he said of his former assistant, Roy Williams. “I’m very happy for him. I sent him to Kansas and got him back here, and everything's gone smoothly.”

Comments

jayhawkboogeyman 10 years, 9 months ago

Sporting News was the only news story promoting this scam that Carl would go to Memphis. If it were true, ESPN and others would have picked up on it. I was just getting on to say that it was probably a scam, and as always, the boogeyman was right.

wolfy 10 years, 9 months ago

This seems to be directly contrary to what Rivals.com is reporting. Hmmmm.

David Hall 10 years, 9 months ago

THAT IS GOOD THAT HE IS NOT TAKEN THAT JOB

rockchalkmillhouse25 10 years, 9 months ago

Im so over this........just convince Lance to sign and get this crap over with.

mjhawk 10 years, 9 months ago

Gary, Thanks for investigating this. I was frustrated as heck with the lack of attention the Sporting News article got. Now it's back to hoping X will land in Lawrence.

JayCeph 10 years, 9 months ago

It feels like a Friday the 13th movie... more of the same.

Dale Kroening 10 years, 9 months ago

Thank you Carl for squashing this roomer. Both have been released from their LOI !!!!!! Did everyone read that? It doesnt mean they are coming to KU, but If they have officially been released from Memphis, I'd be surprised if thats where they end up after its all said and done.

rockchalkmillhouse25 10 years, 9 months ago

I though CJ was a walk on?? Why would he have to be released? Makes no sense.

d_prowess 10 years, 9 months ago

Is there a chance that KU is talking to both Lance and Xavier and asking them to be patient because Coach needs to deal with the NBA question for Cole and Sherron?
I wonder this because I still am not clear on where the scholarship would come for one more recruit. I hate to speak ill of Coach, but is there a chance he overestimated the possibility of one of those two going to the NBA and now is not as certain? And so now is asking the recruits to be patient to see what happens...

Toto_the_great 10 years, 9 months ago

Ever wonder why so many hoopsters have bad grades (not saying X does)... "is leaving tomorrow for Oregon (and Nike Hoop Summit). After that he goes to New York (for Jordan Classic, April 18)." Whith all the tourneys, is there time for class work? Am I the only one who's parents made me do school work before I could play sports? I know blue-chippers are on a different playing level, but seriously... STUDENT-athlete.

Also, who pays for these trips? Sponsors?

jayhawkinATL 10 years, 9 months ago

I'm tired of all this DRAMA too!!!

I just want to keep the current team chemistry intact (i.e., Cole, Sherron, the Morris twins, Brady, Tyrel, etc.). I think it's our best shot at winning the national championship next year.

TexasHawk44 10 years, 9 months ago

cap10d: "Roomer"? Really? You are not a grad, right?

TexasHawk44 10 years, 9 months ago

I meant High School grad. Middle School?

Lance Hobson 10 years, 9 months ago

I think it's wrong what we've done to Lance over this. He clearly wanted to go to KU and then had his signing announcement ruined because of this Memphis-UK fiasco. We have waited too long for Xavier, we are obviously his safety school and that's just not what KU needs to be for any recruit. If he wanted to play for us, he would have commited by now.

jayhawkinATL 10 years, 9 months ago

I agree, Strikewso.

If we must bring someone in, I think it should be someone who has no doubts regarding where he wants to be.

Joel Hood 10 years, 9 months ago

I knew this rumor of Carl Henry to Memphis had no legs. It was simply the exact opposite of what he said on the radio last Friday. I really believe that Cole & Sherron will be back and that someone else will transfer (perhaps wishful thinking.)

jayhawkinATL 10 years, 9 months ago

I'm about this much from being OVER the Henry clan right about now!!!

Dale Kroening 10 years, 9 months ago

TexasHawk44 (anonymous) says... cap10d: "Roomer"? Really? You are not a grad, right?

You got me. RUMOR Trying to type fast before the boss sees me or too many drinks at lunchtime. Not that I'm a great speller anyways. No, not a KU grad.

Dale Kroening 10 years, 9 months ago

Couldnt afford college, but I did graduate from Wyandotte High School, the same HS as Mr. Calvin Thompson though. :P

d_prowess 10 years, 9 months ago

For those that keep saying they think someone is going to transfer to open up a spot, I want to know what evidence you have to support that theory?
I don't mean to be a jerk, but it seems like that would have come out by now or we would have at least heard comments from someone in the program about the possibility. But so far there has been nothing and even some players have been quoted as saying they would not transfer.
Until something new comes out, I am really starting to think that Coach Self may have offered more than he has now that Cole and Sherron might actually stay and is purposely pushing the decision by X or Lance back.

RockChalk1982 10 years, 9 months ago

Does anyone have a Rivals.com account. I would like to know what they are reporting on this b/c reading the "teaser" is sounds like it is going the other way.

Kenny George 10 years, 9 months ago

This drama really has no happy ending that I can think of for C.J. Looks like he is stuck in Memphis unless he is willing to sit another year and he has said he will not do that. If he transfers to KU and he sits and X is one and done then he will still not have played with X. The only way they play together is at Memphis and X doesn't want to be there. C.J. just really needs to get on with life and get a degree before he turns 80 yrs. old! X---just commit to KU and get this over with!!! This is crazy that a KU family cannot get their S&#@ together and get X to KU when he has always wanted to be there according father Carl......

treidy 10 years, 9 months ago

Why would we want someone so badly who clearly doesn't want to be at KU? Carl apparently doesn't have enough love and appreciation for his alma mater to toy it around like this. BS lets move on and sign someone bigger and better. You have already proven it doesn't matter who you sign, we are gonna win!

Joel Hood 10 years, 9 months ago

d_prowess - No one thinks you're a jerk and no one has any "evidence" of a transfer. But, would it shock you if Quintrell transferred? I am not saying he should transfer, but look at his future at KU. The Morris twins, Cole, Withey, and now Robinson are on the the roster. Where will Q's minutes come from if Robinson is as good as claimed? Is Q willing to stick around until his senior year to start? I know D-Block did it last year, but he was exceptional. Just my observations and ponderings - all for fun...

keith horinek 10 years, 9 months ago

Is this a quiet period, or can coaches talk to these recruits? why is there so much speculation over where who is going where? If this is not a quiet period why doesn't coach just come out and say "we want you"?

Brett Forreal 10 years, 9 months ago

I agree. Lance is being done over on this one. Forget X and all this drama. Yeah the kid is good, but we need a 3rd scoring option and it is Lance. Heck, X might end up in Kentucky land with that slime of a coach. That guy makes my skin crawl and is a real tool. If I was Lance I would be ticked off and not go to KU sadly to say. Just sign Lance and be done with it.

KUSmurf 10 years, 9 months ago

I thought I remember Quintrell saying he was thinking about transferring about midway through the season, if anybody goes I think he would. (not saying I want him to leave, but his playing time is going to be about nothing this season more than likely)

Robert Brock 10 years, 9 months ago

I am so sick of this BS. I can't remember KU ever going through this much trouble to get a recruit. If/when Xavier confirms he is staying with Memphis, I can't wait to see how insane the KU message boards get. Should be really entertaing. Geez.

JayhawkPurist 10 years, 9 months ago

LJW writers,

Here's an article that would be timely and very enlightening to your readers:

Describe the intricate details of scholarship offers. If KU has makes an offer to two players (read: Stephenson and Henry), what's to keep one (read: Stephenson) from accepting before the other (read: Henry)? Is it the practical fact that a player won't accept if/when a coach says the time is not right? Can KU coaches talk to recruits now? If not, why hasn't Stephenson already committed so as to guarantee he doesn't get left out by Henry?

Joel Hood 10 years, 9 months ago

I’m not sure I understand why everyone is so mad at the Henry’s. If you listened to what Carl has said all along, he wanted his sons to choose where they wanted to go and his only input was that he did not want them to go to OU or Okie State. CJ looked at his post-baseball hoops options and made the (admittedly bad) choice of Calipari-Memphis. Xavier preferred to go to KU all along, but since CJ went to Memphis, he wanted his OAD year to be with his brother. Carl said that X sacrificed his first choice of KU for family. Now, if CJ can get an NCAA waiver, it looks like they both want to come to KU.

I understand how some of you feel like Lance Stevenson has been slighted, but I really feel like X would be a better fit for KU. Just go look at http://www.bornready.tv/ . Is this type of self-promotion what KU fans are accustomed to, or want?

I’m just saying that it seems like there is growing message board frustration with the Henry’s and I don’t feel that way after listing to what Carl actually said. JMHO.

Chicago_JHawk 10 years, 9 months ago

I'm not quite sure what everyone's problem is. Carl Henry is simply refuting a report in the Sporting News yesterday and explaining what the time frame will be for a decision. The people on this board and forums like it are complaining about what a soap opera this has become, but it's YOU who are making it a soap opera by running with every tiny rumor that pops up. The only people going about this the right way might be the Henrys themselves! Why is it a problem if they want to take time to weigh their options? Then they can make a decision they'll be happy with. If it's not here they want to be, then so be it. I didn't go to college where my parents did just because they went there...

Stephenson apparently made his own decision to wait and see, not KU. Why? Who knows...I agree that once the contact period begins, HCBS should contact Lance and make a push to get him here. Then maybe the "soap opera" solves itself. Clearly these are the only two guys we're after. I think we should take the first one that wants to sign on the dotted line.

It'll be the middle of June before we know about Cole and Sherron (I'm assuming they'll both test the waters - and they should) coming back or not, so that's not something we can wait for.

d_prowess 10 years, 9 months ago

Good comments Chicago_JHawk. I admit I love the attention all of this is getting because I think it is really interesting, but we do all need to take a breath now and then. Also, great comments about not knowing until June for Cole and Sherron. I had not really thought that their futures will probably be drawn out until then. Does anyone know what happens if we do sign a recruit but both come back? Can we even do that (e.g. NCAA rules against that?)

kufankam 10 years, 9 months ago

Some of you are crazy!!!

How is Carl Henry's loyalty to KU tied to his willingness/unwillingness to FORCE his son's to go to KU. They are his son's, not his slaves. As a father, I respect that he is letting his boys make their own decisions and supporting them in it.... that is called parenting.

You people need to take a break from message boards and go out where the sun shines. The real world is a great place to be!

Sally Presson 10 years, 9 months ago

If Lance really wants to come to KU--sign him asap!!! He's dang good as is X, but does X really want to come to KU. We need players who really want to be in Lawrence, not beg them and have them jack us around. Whenever the time comes we can talk to either of these outstanding players, offer them a position and see who takes it. Both will be an asset for KU, first come first serve!!!

Eric Williams 10 years, 9 months ago

Someone wrote about team chemistry being affected by this...that's ridiculous considering our current team doesn't have contact with the recruits.

Plus if anyone thinks we will benefit more by having Brady and Tyrel pick up minutes rather than X or Lance is ridiculous.

More rumors to stoke the fire: On www.jayhawkslant.com there is a story about Elijah Johnson having contact with Xavier Henry (you have to be a Rivals member though).

I would be interested to know if Elijah and Thomas are trying to persuade X to come to KU. These guys do know each other from AAU tournaments and such.

Dale Kroening 10 years, 9 months ago

Why feel sorry for Lance. He had an offer he could have accepted long before all this X and Calipari circus, and he chose to postpone, and delay it several times.

yates33333 10 years, 9 months ago

TexasHawk44 . Cap10d isn't the only one who posts here I hope didn't graduate from K.U.

GabrielMichael 10 years, 9 months ago

I'm sure that Coach Self is in control of this situation. For all we know he's asked the Henry's to slow-play this until the Sherron/Cole thing and the scholarship thing gets worked out. Don't worry JHawk brethren... the right guy is steering the ship!

TexasHawk44 10 years, 9 months ago

cap10d: try spellcheck. great invention.

just busting your chops...

TexasHawk44 10 years, 9 months ago

Self will do what is best for the kids and program. While I don't agree that Henry is slow-playing anything due to scholarships, I do agree with GabrielMichael that we have the right person at the helm of the ship.

Even if we don't land X or Lance (which I think is unlikely), we will still have a good team. We do still have the Coach of the Year running the team.

TexasHawk44 10 years, 9 months ago

kufankam: You are one of the most intelligent posters on here. I totally agree with your last post. I could not agree with your more.

TexasHawk44 10 years, 9 months ago

kufankam: You are one of the most intelligent posters on here. I totally agree with your last post. I could not agree with you more.

63Jayhawk 10 years, 9 months ago

I read this past year (on this site I believe) that Roy Williams said that recruiting had become the most frustrating part of coaching because, in this age of internet recruit rankings, the coach gets critiqued for the players he does not sign rather than the ones he does. He didn't mention the difficulty of recruiting when the coach does not know which of his current underclassmen will still be with him next year or the year after. It seems to me to be an absolute nightmare for the coach, and perhaps not too much fun for the recruits. I commend Coach Self for doing an outstanding job under these very difficult circumstances. He has done a great job and I am confident he will continue to do so. I'm already looking forward to next season. I know that Coach Self will put a good team on the floor. I just don't know for sure who all of the players will be.

Tony Bandle 10 years, 9 months ago

What is Spell Czech...a Slavic curse? :]

I posted this about two weeks ago and my gut feeling is nothing is going to change.

I think that Sherron and Condor both return who along with Little, Reed, Morningstar and Appleton giving Kansas solid Senior/Junior leadership.

The Sophomore group will include an experienced and bulked up crew of Taylor, Releford, Marcus, Markieff and Thomas. Their upside development will be key to next year.

Add the three highly touted new guys, Robinson [ who I predict will be a BEAST], Johnson and Withey and you got five star talent pressing the veterans.

THE KEY IS THE THREE....Who will develop into the third scorer, and maybe it doesn't have to come from the three spot. We shall see but this team will be deep in talent and hungry to improve. I hope Mr. Robinson's chip on the shoulder attitude is contagious!!!!!!

Dale Kroening 10 years, 9 months ago

Spellcheck whats that ? I dont have the time for all that. No offense taken texashawk44.

okjhok 10 years, 9 months ago

Don't any of you remember last fall when Carl Henry said that X's decision had absolutely nothing to do with where his brother was going to school? That he was his own man and was going to live his own life. And now he's saying that the biggest reason X ended up signing with Memphis was to be with his brother and keep the family together. I'm going to have a hard time trusting anything that comes out of Carl's mouth from here on out. Sorry guys, but I think this whole thing is as up in the air as it could possibly get.

Blake Post 10 years, 9 months ago

sounds like there is a lot of biting going on here. In other words, a lot of you bite.
Carl Henry was a great favorite at KU. His sons are welcome here if they want to come. Hope they don't read this junk though. I am happy to wait to see what they do. I have been waiting for the sons of KU greats and am intrigued by the idea that they might come to KU. I wish the sons of Dave Robisch had been able to come to KU, although I'm not sure they would have been as good as he.

Who cares if a few mouths on here are frustrated. just shut up. Recruiting is a war too. It is what it is. We have to do this and if you want to see the results at the end... just like last year's Ntl championship, I think you can deal with this.
If the sons of Henry decide to come here, it will be worth the wait. I'm certainly not going to dis them for whatever they do, or how much time they take. But dad Carl said he wants them to figure out where they are going, so I don't think it will be very long. And brockhill, you are sadly mistaken. Curtis Aiken took Pitt instead of KU. Baron Davis took UCLA instead of KU. I think we wanted Anthony Peeler, but MU got him. We held out for certain players and lost them and the ones who were waiting on us at the same time. This has happened before, and it happened not that long ago under Roy. If we get these guys I will be elated.
The Henry deal just happened by a fluke. They were going to Memphis but their coach bolted. Now we have an awesome opportunity. Remember, we picked up Brandon Rush late.
Hey Jayhawkerjoel, how is the hawk shoulder tatoo doing?

DoubleDD 10 years, 9 months ago

In recruiting wars you win some you lose some. Couple of points to consider. Ever think that the Henry brothers don't want to come to KU. That maybe all this media talk is just the Daddy. Hmm!! Not once have I read or heard the X say from his own mouth that he wants to come to KU. It is always somebody else speaking for him. He has said that KU is an option, his number two school if you will. I think the Henry parents want their boys to go to KU, however CJ who is a millionare might I add has more influnce over the X in his decision of picking a school. If CJ wasn't in the picture I have no doubt Henry would commit to KU like a good son and make Dad and Mom very happy.

The second point is KU will mostly like cut down the nets next year if Collins and Aldrich return for another year. I believe we have a better chance of that happening than signing of either the X or Born Ready. These 2 are one and done. Face the facts they have dollar signs in their eyes. This wouldn't even be an issue if it weren't for the one year in college before you can go pro rule. I know this is easier said than done but don't take for granted what you have. We're going to be rooting for a very solid team next year. Our young Jayhawks will be a year older (I perfer the term a year of being battle tested). I know its hard to make the connection with this team and last years championship team, but this team is really good. Plus we are adding Witney, Thomas, and Elijah, this team is loaded and solid at every spot. You know Collins and Aldrich are thinking championship next year. (I know I am)!!!!

A Bonus comment: As much as I would love to have a one done player like X or Born Ready, I'm not sure I would want the U of K to waist a scholiee on them. I know crazy talk but it just seems right to me to give that player that wants to not only play for KU but become a Jayhawk a free ride through college. Love reading stories about former KU players attending our games talking to the players things like that. This what I've always liked about KU. The players become actual Jayhawks (weird HuH??). Look at Bardon Rush compared to J Wright. Rush will always be a Jayhawk, J Wright on the other hand just some memories of guy who was talented.

Hey X Henry be a man make a decision for yourself and stop letting people talk for you, you're giving KU fans false hope. It seems now that Kentucky is an option for ya. Hmm. I say go to Kentucky and play my Man, but Cal and the your now buddies won't be rolling through the SEC like the CUSA

Alan Halvorsen 10 years, 9 months ago

I hope that none of the Henry's read these comments. People are questioning Carls loyalty to his alma mater, criticizing CJ for wanting to play with his brother, and making it known that Xavier isn't worth the wait. Who would want to play for a bunch of chump fans that say that kind of stuff.

I'm gonna laugh at all you dogging him when he signs with KU. Those of you talking crap on the Henry's will retract your comments OVERNIGHT.

kupark 10 years, 9 months ago

I'm tired of all this drama by Henry family. First, it was X is definitely not going to Memphis because Cal left. Now, X and CJ have to sit down and decide whether they want to go together to Memphis or somewhere else. Give us a break, Carl.

Tony Bandle 10 years, 9 months ago

LET ME REPEAT!!!

No one is leaving No one is transferring No one is coming in who is not already committted.

Next year's team will have a roster of guys who want to be at and are dedicated to KU.

No X, no CJ, no Lance, no anybody in as a OAD...and it will work out just fine!!

nwhawk 10 years, 9 months ago

Why do some of you think that we've done wrong by Lance? Do you understand that Lance's offer has been on the table for some time, and that Lance could have taken it at any point? We are not pushing Lance away. We are not making Lance wait until the Henry's figure out their situation. We are not doing anything to Lance. In fact, we're not in contact with Lance - it's a NO CONTACT period. Lance is in control of his own destiny.

As to the Henry's, many of you like to complain about the drama. Fact is, the only people creating drama are some of you, as well as some news organizations that don't seem to do their job very well.

Cole and Sherron will decide their future. Lance and the Henrys will make the best choices for themselves. All will fall into place. KU will march on . . .

mlubyRN 10 years, 9 months ago

Go to KU, Go to KU, Go to KU!!!!! I am willing it to happen!

Joel Hood 10 years, 9 months ago

hawkman1031 - afraid you have me confused with someone else - no worries though.
Carl Henry was asked today on Lawrence radio 1320 where X wants to go - he said KU. Then he was asked where CJ would like to go if he gets an NCAA waiver and Carl said he wasn't sure. He said that CJ is afraid that KU fans would resent him for taking the baseball-Memphis route after committing to KU initially. Brian Haney (radio host) assured him there would be nothing but love if CJ & X came to KU. Carl seemed reassured by that. I concur. If CJ & X come here (even for 1 year) it would be great.

Dale Kroening 10 years, 9 months ago

Not that I thought we had a chance at Wall, but looks like he got a call from Roy over the weekend. I guess I'd rather see him go to UNC before UK . Speaking of this story, if its true, is the non-contact period over though ?

http://basketballrecruiting.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=932823

B60 10 years, 9 months ago

I don't remember the exact month but didn't Arthur take forever before he had his dream that he belonged at KU? My recollection is that he was like pushing summer but I can't remember exactly when. Does somebody remember?

I also don't understand the people talking about Orton. He only committed to Kentucky after KU told him that they weren't offering him a scholarship. I specifically remember reading that in the J-W which was ironic because his brother wanted to come to KU and only picked OSU when Roy told him that he wasn't going to get a Jayhawk scholarship. Orton is not coming to KU because there are no minutes for a big guy.

My last point is that I still don't see any one and done players coming to KU because I don't see Self letting them not learn to play defense. Nearly all have holes in their games and they want to showcase their skills and not commit to learn what they don't know. Look at the guys that Coach Self gets. They work and stay and work. None really have that great of freshman seasons. Look at Rush, Arthur, Chalmers. Rush had the best freshman season of any of them but he stayed to fill in his game. I think that the Henry's know the more about basketball than most families but if they are truly committed to one and done I doubt that they pick KU. Stephenson looks like a potential recruiting scandal for anyone taking him.

jaybate 10 years, 9 months ago

"Dr. Strangerecruit: Or How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the OAD"

Directed by: Stanley Kubrick (uncredited, The Cohen and Wachowski Brothers)

Written by: Jay Bilas and Stanley Kubrick (uncredited Thomas Pynchon and J.D. Salinger)

Plot: Black satire set in college basketball of the future in which two seventeen year old blue chip basketball players so preoccupy two great basketball programs, that a poster at KUsports.com has a psychotic break and sneaks out to an ICBM installation in Eastern Kansas, uses free password cracking software from the internet on his laptop to crack a back door password to the launch software, and launches two Minute Man MIRVs toward the two recruits, who cannot make up their minds about which school to attend. Former Russian President Vladimir Putin misinterprets the launches as the errant beginnings of a massive nuclear strike on Russia by USA launches a massive counter strike. President Barack Obama playing baseball with the Chicago White Sox suddenly finds himself out of radio contact with the Pentagon and, thinking a rogue general at the Pentagon has attempted a coup, orders the FEMA COG shadow government operating the USA since 9/11 to coordinate a NORTHCOM strike on both the Pentagon and the Kremlin. Despite the imminent end of all human life on planet earth, the recruiting war for the OADs that can't make up their minds, as vast mushroom clouds begin towering over all the major continents of the earth.

Cast: Tom "Ratso" Izzo--Dustin Hoffman John Calipari--John Turturro Bill Self--George Clooney Roy Williams--George "Goober" Lindsey Vladimir Putin--Vladimir Putin Barack Obama--Barack Obama Athletic Director Jack D. Ripper--Sterling Hayden Dr. Strangerecruit/Myles Brand/Group Captain Lance Henry--Chris Rock The OAD--?

Commentary: This film, and not Eyes Wide Shut, was actually Kubrick's last film project completed under his own name.

Little Known Fact: Stanley Kubrick is really not dead. He is alive and living in Edgerton, Kansas, under the assumed name of Maurice Goldweather. Both the Cohen Brothers and the Wachowski Brothers are fictional identities that he continues to release films under.

FairgroveJayhawk 10 years, 9 months ago

Maybe roy boy forgot to tell Wall not to say anything about the call. That would be pretty amusing.

Nice input cap10d.

Here's a link to the NCAA recruiting schedule telling when recruits can and cannot be contacted.

http://www.ncaa.org/wps/ncaa?ContentID=25072

jchawkfan 10 years, 9 months ago

Just seen that Cousins is to follow Coach Cal to Kentucky. I wonder if this will play a roll with X????

kubasketball0809 10 years, 9 months ago

JEEZ WE WOULD WE PLEASE JUST SIGN LANCE ALREADY, X DOES NOT WANT TO GO TO KU IF HE DID HE WOULD HAVE SIGNED IN THE FIRST PLACE. I THINK THAT LANCE WILL BE A BETTER FIT FOR KU ANYWAYS. LANCE WANTS TO COME IN TO A SCHOOL AND BE THE STAR PLAYER AND HERE AT KU THERE IS NO I IN KU OR TEAM LANCE WILL BE AN ALL ROUND BETTER FIT. THAT'S FINAL

Eric Schneider 10 years, 9 months ago

This is going to take as long as it takes. I ultimately think X will be a Jayhawk, it's just going to take time. As for Cole and Sherron, they'll be back. The only way either of them leaves is if Cole decides he needs to take care of his family. And I would be really shocked if there isn't at least one booster with contacts in the MInneapolis area trying to help Cole's dad with a job.

I really don't want Lance. I see nothing but chemistry problems. Lance is only out for Lance.

Now the OAD issue. I rarely agree with Dick Vitale on anything. But I do on this issue. Institute a similar policy to college baseball. You can go straight to the NBA if you want. But if you decide to go to school you have to stay at least 2 years. I know baseball is three years. I just don't think that works as well in basketball.

kubasketball0809 10 years, 9 months ago

jayhawkfan96 i agree on your statement about agreeing with Dick Vitale on anything. You might think that lance is for himself and he might be, but he will be an immediate impact on the team. X would be to but from the looks of things he is looking to stay in Memphis with his brother, I say we take what we have in lance and get on with it. Before this whole situation about X, everyone wanted lance but now because there is talk about X wanting to come its like forget lance.....

RockChalk1982 10 years, 9 months ago

We will find out on Sheron and Cole long before the end of June. Deadlines are set so if they don't declare before April 26th they can't get into the draft, and they have to pull their names out before June 15th. I personally see them both staying. Sheron had a GREAT year but was t/o happy at time. Cole still needs to develop his scoring abilities, he is AMAZING at the other end of the floor though.

As for the Henry's I'm either way. I think they should look at Cole as an example though. Most improved player in the nation. That is a direct result of great coaching. Team coaching, Manning has done wonders for the big men at KU. Since X is a OAD he can still get great improvement from HCBS!!!

Michael Auchard 10 years, 9 months ago

Wow. What a /classy/ quote by Dean Smith. He really gives a rat's ass about his alma mater. What a POS.

JayJayPG 10 years, 9 months ago

I'm confused...

So did Memphis ever offer Carl Henry this position? Or did Memphis really offer Carl Henry this position (which he turned down)?

Joel Hood 10 years, 9 months ago

Memphis NEVER offered him the job - and he would not have taken it if they had. He also said he wouldn't take any job like this - even if at KU or Kentucky.

Blake Post 10 years, 9 months ago

must be a different joel. oh well... It's a good Jayhawk tattoo anyway.

KU has nothing but love for players who come and want to play

Larry Brown wondered if we would want him back with the 88 team for the 100 yr celebration since he left after that. KU has nothing but love for its champions. In fact, I think we would love for Danny Manning to have lots more children and for them to come to KU so we can love them too. Too bad Wilt never had any (I think).

not much love for those who have extra bad things happen at bars late at night or generally get kicked out... like Giles.

how bout we kick NU next year in football... I would never get tired of flogging the tyrants.

soapboxstew 10 years, 9 months ago

Is it ironic that people are writing long posts in protest of posting on this subject?

PEOPLE: The reason why us fans are freaking out over this recruiting saga- hanging on every update- is because we know what a 3rd scorer/rebounder would do for this team. We should realize that if Brady (who we all like) is our 3 next year, we will have the same result as this year (a Sweet 16 exit). If we have X or Lance at the 3, we ARE going to be #1 and the fav to win the whole effen thing. Dookie V picked us as the #1 team under the assumption that we would keep SC & Cole, and add Lance or X. V even mentioned that getting either of those players would give Kansas the #1 recruiting class in the nation.

You guys that are tired of this recruiting extravaganza use the same rhetoric: "We'll be fine..." Well, I don't want to be just fine, I want to be the best. If you want to be fine, root for Baylor. We're KANSAS. To achieve the greatness that is a Championship, we need great players to take us there. Rush, Chalmers (especially after his McD's AA game), and Julian Wright were all considered absolute LOCKS to be OAD (just as Lance and X are). I would have been smitten as a kitten if those guys only stayed a year, but they didn't... Just like Lance or X may not. The point is, you get the best you can get. If they don't work while they are here, you give them the boot (see CJ Giles, JR Giddens, and MDowns). You don't worry weather or not they are OAD, have a bad attitude, or whatever; you sign them now and worry about that stuff later. You let the red flags stop you, and the next thing you know, your playing against this great kid in his Jr. year, and he is taking your team to the woodshed.

Steve Brown 10 years, 9 months ago

I think Micah Downs should transfer he doesn't help us anymore and take Giddens with him, and that Padgett kid just is not productive anymore....where on the bench does he hide....things happen.

I trust HCBS.

TexasHawk44 10 years, 9 months ago

soapboxstew: What does the "weather" have to do with OAD and bad attitudes? Seriously, does anyone one on this board have an education above the 8th grade?

While I agree we need a stronger 3 and that Brady is not the answer, I do not think that KU has to have some kid to win it all. True enough we need a third scoring option and the lack of it did hurt us significantly.

Look, these boards are for people who love the program to connect with others who share the same passion. Other use it to spread rumors (or "roomers" as one poster put it) and still others to vent etc. We all have our reasons. Some of the posters are quite intelligent and well informed while others are juvenile and moronic. Most, I have found, cannot spell worth a darn.

Both the bright and the idiots on here (or should I use "hear" just so some of the spelling bee champs will recognize the word?) who say "forget X" and "Lance is trouble" and "we'll be just fine without them" will all hop on the X or Lance bandwagon as soon they show up in a KU uniform and make an impact for one year or two or whatever. If neither of them end up here, then in the end: we will be fine. I mean we just won a national title for God's sake. We have the Coach of the Year running our program. Year in and year out we are top 10 program that could win it all.

What in the hell do you people want?

NebraskaJayhawk 10 years, 9 months ago

Good post, TexasHawk. And I might add that it does matter what kind of character these kids have coming into the program. If you've got a shot at recruiting a kid that has character & potential, I would rather see that happen then to recruit some punk that will be one and done for reasons that does not include the NBA draft. Self knows what he's doing though and I doubt either one of these recruits are anything but the cream of the crop. I like our chances with or without them next year as long as the core of this team stays.

TexasHawk44 10 years, 9 months ago

lighthawk:

Uhm, "that Padgett kid" is not productive anymore because he is not with Louisville anymore. He got cut by the Miami Heat earlier this year. I mean are you for real? He was a very productive player for Louisville. Don't be ridiculous. He transfered. Whatever. It wasn't a good fit. He was a whiner. Whatever. Get over it.

Downs is in the mix to be drafted this year. He also was a whining daddy's boy. It was a bad fit. Stuff happens.

Giddens got drafted by the Celtics last year. He did some stupid stuff at KU. Stuff happens.

Are you talking in the present? Quoting a post from 5 years ago? On drugs? Trying to be funny? Or just being a moron? Or am I just missing some inside joke?

Eric Williams 10 years, 9 months ago

Uh...we don't all like Brady.

I'd personally be fine with him standing in the corner and shooting the occasional 3.

His defense is overrated, decision skills lacking, ball-handling is horrible, but hey he IS from Lawrence.

If Brady is our starting #3 next year, we will NOT win the title. Brady is best in a back-up role.

sydhawk 10 years, 9 months ago

TexasHawk:

Lighthawk's post was obviously a joke. Relax. And even if it wasn't funny, I'd rather read something like that than your posts castigating people for being less educated than you and/or for bad spelling.

Intelligence means little until it's paired with generosity of spirit.

Otherwise, I completely agree with you that our program is bigger than ANY high school kid and we should behave as such -- regardless of any hole we have at the three spot...

jaybate 10 years, 9 months ago

jaybate news service:

| Unreliable sources report Lance Stephenson has filed in the World Court to challenge the NCAA OAD rule on grounds it is a crime against basketball humanity to force someone Born Ready to play a year in D1. It is rumored that he will withdraw the suit if Cole Aldrich remains at KU another season, thus allowing him to sign with KU and win a national championship next season.

| Sources speaking on deep background indicate Xavier Henry has had a religious epiphany and decided to quit basketball and join the Cistercian Monastery recently added on to by Architect John Pawson. He is to be called, not surprisingly, Brother Xavier.

| Content analysis run late last night on Google and Nexus by a KU student group identifying itself as "Fear and Loathing in Division I Coaching" reputedly indicates Roy Williams continues to refuse to discuss, whether he is recruiting only half the country to protect KU, the same way that he recruited only half the country to protect UNC during Roy's 15 years at KU.

| Coach Bill Self continues wisely to do his job and operate beneath the radar amidst this recruiting brouhaha. Coach Self was reputedly sited in six different airports the last three days sporting a blue t-shirt with crimson lettering that read "Think about Next."

jasonsgill 10 years, 9 months ago

I didn't know so many of you all had law degrees, must be the case 'cause you're all so quick to judge (boooo!!! hisss!!!!!)

Anyway, some kids are head cases and some kids get bad reps b/c they have always been in a given environment being told certain things. I think that if Self is recruiting Lance, he has been straight with him, and that means that Lance is willing to be the equal of everyone on the team. No one would come here and believe that they would be the man.

That, to me, shows that Lance has character and a drive to get better. I could be wrong. But going through the basketball hype machine in NYC as a teenager is going to make any kid come out the worse for wear in the eyes of the general public. Don't be so quick to judge him until you see how he behaves in a different environment.

TexasHawk44 10 years, 9 months ago

Castigating people? Really? I guess asking people to use basic language skills when writing, is castigation in your book.

If you want to know what castigation is, please read all of the posters who are castigating 18 year old kids that are trying to figure what is the best thing for their future. Plenty of posters have "castigated" Xavier, Lance, CJ and Carl Henry on here. I cannot point out someone someone's mistakes, yet it is okay to bombard these young men because they don't do what people on here want done, when they want it done, in the order they want it done?

I am sorry if I come off as a jerk for asking people to use basic grammar skills.

However, that will be the last time I post anything referring to anyone's butchering our language.

My bad.

Todd Mobray 10 years, 9 months ago

Jaybate, I am glad you brought up the fact that Roy spent his time at KU with one hand tied behind his back recruiting-wise. I understand him leaving to go back and coach at his alma-matter, even after he promised he wouldn't. However, I am surprised more people don't bring up the fact that Roy did not recruit east of the Mississippi or battle UNC head to head for recruits during his time at KU.

It is one thing to be out in the open and change schools, but it seems much more deceitful to be in the bag for UNC as the KU head coach. Roy would never admit any kind of deal, he always felt he could not recruit against UNC or east coast schools in his heart. I am not sure if it is worse to have a secret deal with UNC or to truly believe that no one would ever choose KU over UNC in a recruiting battle.

Either way, the thing that kept Roy "getting over the hump" at KU was not lack of coaching ability, it was the fact that we ignored the best basketball half of the country for 15 years in recruiting. It cost us in our overall talent level, head to head with UNC ('91 team had mostly Brown recruits in key roles and beat them, '93 did not), and in exposure and interest east of the Mississippi for future recruiting.

I remember an article quoting a NYC coach when we were recruiting Russell Robinson saying KU felt had no foothold in east-coast recruiting. He said something like "Our kids love KU, we just have not seem them in here recruiting for the last 10 years."

I don't hold it against Roy for leaving. I have left a few good jobs for more money or a location closer to home, a combination of both would be a no brainer. These two titles in the last 5 years do show what a great coach he is and was. The only thing holding him back here was his loyalty to UNC, his lack of belief in KU, or most likely a combination of both.

kufankam 10 years, 9 months ago

does anyone else read CJ's remarks and find them to be a little contrary to what you hear coming out of Carl or Xavier's remarks?

example... last week, an article comes out (with CJ's quotes) saying that they are open to wherever and that Xavier is so open to anything he may go to Duke (joking). then, Carl comes out that very afternoon and says, Xavier has always wanted to go to KU and it is only a matter of whether or not CJ could come and play too. then yesterday, Carl states that they are officially released and now CJ is saying that X is still signed there?

i get a feel that big brother is feeling stranded on an island and doesn't want to watch his little brother go for greener pasture's. it looks like CJ is thinking this way: 1. he thinks his appeal is not looking too good and he will have to sit if he transfers? 2. he is probably pretty cumfy in his life situation in memphis (basketball frat house) 3. he doesn't want memphis to be mediocre next year and wants X to fix that

i could be way wrong, but the quote that, "as of now, he (X) is still signed here and still coming here" doesn't match up with any other news coming from Carl or Xavier? CJ seems to be speaking in hopes that his words will become reality?

Michael Bratisax 10 years, 9 months ago

'Im so over this........just convince Lance to sign and get this crap over with.' rockchalkmillhouse25 if I could think of a better way to say just that i would. 100% agree.

kufankam 10 years, 9 months ago

danny xo and jaybate...

i am not refuting your notion that roy did not recruit the east coast but i would be curious to hear if you think that roy's teams were lacking in talent? i am at work and cannot do full fledged research but it seems as though KU had it's fair share of talented players when roy was here... anyone that has the time, i would be interested to see a list of NBA players from carolina vs ku during roys time here. off the top of my head it seems as though carolina would have more, but i don't think it would be overwhelming. i guess what i'm saying is > i don't really care where roy got his players, i always remember his teams being loaded... that's all i cared about.

Tony Bandle 10 years, 9 months ago

2005 - North Carolina - Juniors and Seniors, OADs - None 2006 - Florida - Juniors and Seniors, OADs - None 2007 - Florida - Juniors and Seniors, OADs - None 2008 - Kansas - Juniors and Seniors OADs - None 2009 - North Carolina - Juniors and Seniors - OADs - None 2010 - Kansas - Potentially Eight Juniors and Seniors - OADs - ???????????

I may have missed one or two players but there is definitely a correlation between experience and championship based on the trend listed above. Please don't get me wrong, frankly, I'd love to have X, CJ and Lance but if no one does come in, KU will still be in great shape!!!

Rick Arnoldy 10 years, 9 months ago

I think the hold up is that X is waiting to see if CJ will be able to play right away if he transfers.

CJ doesn’t want to sit another year and X is planning to be gone after one. So if CJ has to stay at Memphis in order to play next year, then X goes to Memphis. If CJ is released to play next year, they both transfer to the same school and play together.

Lance is waiting to see where the Henrys go because he realizes the minutes are getting crowded at Kansas and OAD might not be possible.

kufankam 10 years, 9 months ago

oakvile-

one nugget i would add to your list is this. several of those jr's and seniors from those teams were touted as OAD. i.e. rush and arthur from ku last year. just because X, lance and whoever are touted as such, does not mean they WILL leave. they may, but you never know. i think it is hard to subscribe to the list you have created and say, "OAD-none" because when a lot of those guys were recruited, the WERE thought of as OAD.

that said, i definately agree with you that experience is a huge component of tourney success!

jaybate 10 years, 9 months ago

I'm ready for JNewell, our estimable online editor, to use his content screen to weed out all the words like moron that tend to be used inappropriately in epithets. Here is the Merriam-Webster Online definition of moron.

Main Entry: mo·ron Pronunciation: ˈmȯr-ˌän Function: noun Etymology: irregular from Greek mōros foolish, stupid Date: 1910 1: usually offensive : a mildly mentally retarded person 2: a very stupid person

Really, Mr. Newell, I have never read any posts here by persons that seemed mildly mentally retarded. And I have not even read posts here that would lead me to conclude that persons posting here are very stupid persons. I only see a wide range of opinion. It doesn't seem like posters should have to put up with being called morons just because someone disagrees with them.

Calling our fellow posters morons, as many do, just cannot be accurate. I suspect an actual moron might not know how to operate a computer, much less find this site, register, read the stories and responses that appear, and then key in answers.

Perhaps today's morons are so smart that they too can operate with computers, but I doubt it.

Usually I am a free speech monger, but I am ready to do without all this impuning of others with these ridiculously misused references to low intelligence.

I sense an undercurrent of IQism (sort of an IQ equivalent of racism) driving this sort of behavior. Persons who cannot win arguments on merits, resort to the prejudice of assuming the other person must be a moron to think differently than the epithet hurler. The resort to epithets most often seems to be triggered by differences in point of view, rather than by wrongness in point of view.

I am not pointing a finger at anyone in particular. I went through an early phase of posting here, when I would get down in the ad hom dirt with a few persons that wanted to ad hom. And, while they can sometimes be reached in this way, it is not really worth the effort, when a content filter can simply eliminate the words from the vocabulary of this site.

Is this censorship? Yes. Just as using the content screening software to prevent the vulgates is censorship. I enjoy not reading vulgates and I would enjoy not reading inaccurate referents to low intelligence.

If someone needs to be able to call persons morons to discuss sports, perhaps the person needs to start a sports website catering to all those with a similar need.

kufankam 10 years, 9 months ago

P.S. oakville, not trying to be too nitpicky but i think marvin williams on 05 carolina was OAD.

jaybate 10 years, 9 months ago

kufankam,

Let me master the obvious: Roy could not get enough talent at KU to win a ring recruiting half the country.

Why do you think he has quickly won two based on talent drawn from across the country?

Starting with the UNC squad he won his first ring with (which MD recruited from everywhere), every one of those UNC squads had more depth of talent than any of Roy's KU teams.

I don't think there can be any question about this issue. Recruiting is a numbers game.

rockemchalkemrobots 10 years, 9 months ago

Texas, you come off as a jerk because of HOW you ask others to use basic grammar skills, and because apparently you're from Texas. Please remember that you're on a message board, not grading AP papers. It hurts my head to read some of these posts, but there's a lot more of them than there are of us. The butchering of our language continues with irony as meat tenderizer.

kufankam 10 years, 9 months ago

jaybate,

i have just never heard anyone question roy's talent while at ku as a reason for not winning a championship? i may be mistaken, i just remember 15 years of, "he always loads a team full of talent, but just doesn't win the big one". i remember him being labeled as a great recruiter while at KU. i think you can go down the list and roys teams, from a talent standpiont weren't second to many. do you really think it i so obvious that a team like 97 or 01 were not champions because they lacked talented recruits? do you really believe that? i am not upset, just curious...

TexasHawk44 10 years, 9 months ago

Kufancam: You are right on about CJ's tone. There is definitely a different tone and texture to what CJ is saying versus what is be attributed to Carl. It certainly seems that way to me, anyway. Let's just hope that CJ doesn't persuade X to stay at Memphis a second time. But if he does..."Que Sera, Sera" as the ubiquitous 60's silver screen sweetheart once sang...

jaybate 10 years, 9 months ago

kufankam,

Again, there's no doubt in my mind that if Roy, who is a terrific recruiter, had recruited the entire country, he would have landed more talent at KU, just as he has landed more talent at UNC.

You seem to be confusing the idea that Roy was such a good recruiter and coach that he could work half the country and produce an 80% winning percentage with the idea that Roy could not have improved his winnings by recruiting from a larger pool of talent.

I don't know why you are confusing these two issues, but, again, that seems to be what you are doing.

As every coach says, the coach has to have the horses to win. The coach with the most and best horses has the best chance of winning. Roy never had hands down better talent than the other major programs during his years at KU. Never. He has already had 2-3 years at UNC, where his talent has just been deeper and better. Has he won a ring every year at UNC? Of course not. Just two out of six, or so. Having the best talent for extended periods of time does not guarranty you a ring every year, unless you are a genius like John Wooden. Dean Smith had the best talent for a period of time in the 1980s and he could not win every year, but he did win.

Again, this seems an open and shut case to me.

Tony Bandle 10 years, 9 months ago

kufancam

Point taken. I guess my intent was that the OAD label automatically is null and void if the individual stays. Interesting point, however, if I wasn't so lazy or such a rotten typist, to go through these rosters and see how many started out as OAD. I also believe that the environment experienced by the individual contributes to longevity....Heck, even Blake Griffin stayed for two years!!

Hey, all....nice article about KU as the #1 preseason pick on rivals.com. Check it out!!!

John Randall 10 years, 9 months ago

JayBate:

Thou shall not impugn! Thou shalt not impugn! Don't you never!

The new avatar is no joke ... disregard at your own peril.

kufankam 10 years, 9 months ago

jaybate,

i must not be communicating very well... what i am contending is that roy DID have the talent at ku-regardless of which part of the country it came from. sure he recruited california VERY heavily while here. i just don't see it nearly as open and shut case as you do. roy was often criticized for his having too much talent. while recruiting is a huge part to winning a title, i don't think that is an obvious sign that roy recruited less talented players at ku. in his 15 yrs at ku, i would contend roy had the horses in about 12 of those years. to me, just because he never won a title here is not the end all to gauge your argument. it just seams open and shut to me that roy recruited and had every bit the talent in lawrence as he has had in chapel hill. i would take the 97 team up against any one of his 6 from chapel hill - hands down. just my opinion...

TexasHawk44 10 years, 9 months ago

I think Roy had plenty of talent during his tenure at KU. To me, North Carolina is just a step up over KU when it comes to a program that you can recruit to. You cannot say that about many programs, but I think it is fair to say it about Carolina. I mean, the Michael Jordan effect alone is a major factor. I mean Roy doesn't really even have to recruit that much. He is Coke and McDonald's all wrapped into one. Carolina is Carolina. Roy is a very good coach who now has an absolute basketball factory at his disposal. KU is not far behind but they and UK, and even Duke are a slight notch under Carolina when it comes to recruiting. Again: Michael Jordan.

My opinion (which only means something to myself) is that Roy was a strong recruiter. However, with Roy it seemed to be feast or famine. We either got a LaFrentz or Kirk, Pierce or Gooden or we got a Bryant Nash, Jeff Carey, T.J. Pugh, Nick Bradford, etc. I am not saying those guys were bad players but they were not blue chip recruits.

That said, Roy had some real Rolls Royce teams and talent and just never got it done here. Could have happened and it almost happened but it didn't. I personally think that Self is much better than Roy at building a team and finding the right parts. Roy was a great recruiter at KU -- I just don't think he was as good at putting the right pieces together as Self is. I also think Self is a better bench coach than Roy. But that is just my opinion -- let the insult hurling begin! SMILE!

DoubleDD 10 years, 9 months ago

Did anybody really root for Roy and the Tar Heels. I just couldn't do it. I mean I would much rather have Self by all means. It's just that I never felt Roy was a KU guy with his connections and Love for the Tar Heels.

Some have said we need the X to win another championship that if we don't get him we have another sweet 16 finish. Dude I've been watching CB for sometime and more times than not, team play cuts down the net. Not to say a High profile player like the X or Born ready wouldn't put us over the top. Look solid teams from top to bottom that can put a very good player (not the best) at every spot on the court increases your shot at the title. Cuz lets face it when you get into tournament time anything can happen. So the real ??? is can we make it to the final 4 with the current team assuming everbody comes back, and with the incoming recruits. The answer would be yes, and bottom line you make it to the final 4 you have a chance to win the prize.

Just imagine Cole and the transfer from Arizona down in the post who would you double team????????????????? Trust me we are going to be just ffffffiiiiinnnneeee!!!

hawk_of_ages 10 years, 9 months ago

I had thought you were one of the more rational posters here, Jaybate, but these anti-Roy rants are just unbelievable.

Let's review: Roy won 80 percent of his games at KU, was in fact just about the winningest coach in NCAA history by percentage -- BEFORE he went to UNC. He won the conference time and again, went to four Final 4s and two title games, both of which went to the wire. Yet you're saying he did all that despite recruiting poorly? Wow, that must make him the most brilliant bench coach ever, right?

Of course, on another anti-Roy rant in another thread you took the position (also absurd) that Roy was only capable of winning with massively superior talent. But oops, now you're saying that he failed to recruit superior talent at Kansas -- even though, if I may repeat myself, he won 80 percent of his games and went to four Final 4s and two title games. So... which is it, Jaybate?

With proper recruiting practices, should he have won what, 90 percent of his games at KU? Maybe eight Final 4s in 15 years would have been more up to your standards? That '96-'97 team would probably have gone undefeated if only the roster hadn't been so lacking in East Coast talent.

I can't believe he wasted all that time recruiting inferior West Coast players like Adonis Jordan, Jacque Vaughn, Scot Pollard, Paul Pierce, Drew Gooden and Aaron Miles; or inferior Midwesterners like Raef Lafrentz, Ryan Robertson, Kirk Hinrich, Nick Collison and Wayne Simien. We all know that East Coast players are superior!

It was all a 15-year plot to make himself look like a good coach while keeping Kansas just short of an NCAA title and ingratiate himself with UNC -- because of course if he had dared recruit against them they would never have offered him a coaching job despite his record and his UNC pedigree; they're spiteful that way.

I mean, this has to be a joke, right?

Tribehawk 10 years, 9 months ago

It's ridiculous to argue that Roy didn't have talent at KU. I agree with the above poster about the '97 team. Talent-wise, that was one of the greatest teams in KU history. We didn't win the title that year because of luck and X-and-O's I can't say that I believe the talent level at UNC since Roy's been there has been much/any better than what Roy had while at KU. The true variable most responsible for explaining Roy's more recent Tournament success is experience, not talent. Even near the end of his tenure at KU, he was making deeper runs into the tourney. That's because of experience, not talent.

Jfanallways 10 years, 9 months ago

I think what hurt roys teams was the fact that most were; fast break high octane finess scoring machines, and when they ran into a bill self type team with; bruisers that locked down on defense and were willing to grind it out and be comfortable winning at any score from low 60's to the 90's, they just didnt match up well. Also i seem to recall, if roys teams got down they rarely were able to come back. When bill first arrived i thought his style was boring and slow,but the fact is his teams dont go away. I recall several games in the past 3-4 years where we were down double digits and came back including 2 20 pointers against texas. Now i like bills style of play i think it is the kind that will produce natl champs more consistently than roys style. as far as roy not getting it done here and doing it at nc it may just be odds more than anything, if you consistently make final fours and title games eventually you will win some.

JayhawkPurist 10 years, 9 months ago

"I sent him to Kansas and got him back here, and everything's gone smoothly.” -- Dean Smith

The more Dean Smith says, the more I'm beginning to believe that he indeed cut a deal with Coach Williams back in 1988: I'll get you the KU job by using my influence with AD Bob Fredericks, and in return you'll agree not to infringe on my recruiting ground, namely any area east of the Mississippi.

Think about it. Name one player of consequence that Coach Williams ever successfully recruited from a state east of the Mississippi. It's astonishing that in 15 years, at a premier program no less, that Coach Williams never got any top notch players from the East. In fact, it's so astonishing that it is hard for one to conclude that such an agreement didn't occur.

Yes, Coach Williams was a great ambassador for KU. Yes, he won games at an incredible clip. Yes, he helped put KU in a position for Coach Self to be as successful as he's been at KU (Self has acknowledged this on several occasions, most notably on the winner's platform following last year's national championship game). Yes, the bulk of his Hall of Fame career was spent at KU. But it appears that his abilities, as great as he put them to work at KU, were not allowed to bear the fullest of fruit at KU.

I bear no ill will toward Coach Williams for wanting to "go home", but it leads me to wonder, as it should many KU fans, what could have been?

Dale Kroening 10 years, 9 months ago

Maybe we find something out in the next couple days. According to rivals.com X has talked to HCBS and Cal in the last 24 hours. You have to be an insider to be able to read the rest.

by Shay Wildeboor

BREAKING NEWS... Yesterday Carl Henry broke the news to us that he would not take the job at Memphis and that his son, Xavier, was released from his scholarship. The news is moving quick and Henry just informed us that he has talked with two head coaches in the last 24 hours. Go inside for the latest.

Dillon Davis 10 years, 9 months ago

Actually we're probably not going to find out anything for a couple weeks. The story said Carl did talk to both Calipari and Self today and they just told carl that they really want their sons to come play for them and how they would fit in and all that. But X is leaving for Oregon tomorrow and then heading to NY on the 18th and Carl said the only way they could make a decision is that if X and CJ talked over the phone. but the family likes to sit down and talk about this kind of stuff so dont expect any commitment anytime soon.

jaybate 10 years, 9 months ago

hawk_of_ages,

Let me spell it out for you.

Roy red-lined recruiting east of the Mississippi. No one disputes that.

Next, it does not matter how much talent he brought in, or how much he won. He could have brought in more talent and won more, if he would have recruited the whole country.

Last, KU was never the most talented and deepest team in the country in Roy's 15 entire years.

End of discussion on this issue.

Steve Brown 10 years, 9 months ago

I thought we lost in 97 albeit with great talent as one of our guards had an undisclosed broken wrist...not revealed at the time, & Bibby was on fire...

I do feel our defense last year on the tar heels helped them get better this year. The stops they put on MS were impressive.

I am just a moron but tried to make point some players come and go... and the program is bigger than anyone player, coach or fan. Sometimes we lose players sooner than we expect but it doesn't sink our season... usually it helps us.

I trust HCBS... all this X & CJ stuff will work for the best either way...

jaybate 10 years, 9 months ago

kufankam,

Compare the bigs Roy was able to land at KU, while recruiting half the country, to the great bigs that passed through college basketball during these years. Eric Pauley, Raef LaFrentz, Greg Ostertag and Eric Chenowith and Nick Collison were his great centers. You don't seriously think these were the best bigs in the USA in any of the years that they were at KU, do you?

Go position by position. Roy never had the best talent in the country at 1, 2, 4 and 5 any year he was at KU. Paul Pierce might have been the best 3 his last year at KU, but even that is doubtful.

You've got to get some of the best players to win a ring. Roy had some of the best players in America both years he won his rings. Self had three of the best players in America last year and won a ring. They won't win every time, but you've got to have some of the best on your team to have much of a chance.

Roy would undoubtedly have had a better chance getting some of the best to come to KU, if he had recruited the whole country. How can any one doubt this?

kufankam 10 years, 9 months ago

jaybate,

in 1997 ku went 35-2... lost to missouri in 2ot by 2 pts... lost to Zona by 3 pts... that team lost two games and should have won them both... that team sent 5 guys to the nba... in 1997 that team was, without a doubt, the deepest and most talented team in the country. if you say arizona, you're an idiot...

end of discussion on this issue.

Dillon Davis 10 years, 9 months ago

agree with kufankam,

Paul Pierce Raef LaFrentz Jacque vaughn Scott Pollard Ryan Robertson Billy Thomas T.J. Pugh Jerod Haase? i think

That was a great deep team that yes shouldve won it all

FairgroveJayhawk 10 years, 9 months ago

here are some interesting stats from these guys' freshman seasons. I always though Darrell Arthur was a bit over rated but I do see I was entirely too hard on Marcus this freshman year. Arthur's stats came from statsheet.com , don't know how reliable they are.. I couldn't find a ku web site with players' stats archived. the 3 point percentage is what stands out to me, although i wanted to bury my head every time Marcus shot a 3 pointer. hopefully he can pick it up to 12 points a game next season

Darrell Arthur: MPG 19.0 PPG 9.8 FG% 53.8 3FG% 0.0 FT% 64.6 APG 0.4 RPG 4.7 BPG 1.5 SPG 0.9

Marcus Morris: MPG 18.5 PPG 7.4 FG% 49.5 3FG% 40.0 FT% 60.4 APG 1.1 RPG 4.7 BPG 0.4 SPG 1.0

ididcheckmyspelling but not my commas,caps,or runonsentences. i am such a moron.

BelieveInSelf 10 years, 9 months ago

It drives me nuts that people call Xavier "X" when his name sounds like Zawv-E-A.

jaybate 10 years, 9 months ago

kufankam,

Oh, for heavens sakes, of course Arizona's guards were vastly superior to our guards. If Lute had had anything but a bunch of sticks for bigs, Zona would have beaten the snot out of us. And I hate Lute with a passion. My god, Mike Bibby was twice the player of any guard we had. Bibby has had an excellent pro career as a starter, too. Oh, excuse me, I didn't mean to confuse you with the facts.

This is a classic case of someone who can't prove their own argument--that Roy tended to have the best talent over 15 years, or even over one year--and that Roy couldn't have recruited any more or better talent by expanding the recruiting pool by, oh, say, half to 2/3s depending how you slice the population east of the Mississippi--trying desperately to find one exception in 15 years to my assertion to the contrary and failing even do accomplish that.

And then to top it all off, you resort to this pathetic act of calling someone who disagrees with you, and proves you wrong, an idiot.

Maybe you get away with this sort of stuff at home. Maybe they indulge you and let you say they must be idiots when you are wrong and they are right, but here you are one adult with one opinion that in this case doesn't fit the facts.

I don't care if you are an idiot, or a Mensa cadet, or in the fat part of the Bell Curve. You are arguing without facts supporting you and that doesn't persuade me.

jaybate 10 years, 9 months ago

BelieveInSelf,

It drives me nuts when persons are driven nuts by persons calling Xavier "X."

If his name were pronounced Zay-vier, it would be okay to call him X, because his name begins with X.

If his name were pronounced Xzay-vee-ay, it would be okay to call him X, because his name begins with X.

If his name were pronounced Ay-vee-ay, it would be okay to call him X, because his name begins with X.

In fact, if his freaking name were pronounced Zanadou-ay-vee-ur, it would be okay to call him X, because his name begins with X.

Of course, my favorite name for Xavier is not "X".

It is "X-Variable."

Lone_salina_kufan 10 years, 9 months ago

Wow, some of you guys sit and pontificate and its getting really old, jaybate especially. Did it ever occur to anybody that BOTH UNC and KU are better off NOW? Roy NEEDED the extra boost of the prestigious UNC image to recruit better players to over come his lack on the bench. Dont forget, Matt Daugherty had a 20 loss season at UNC, and still recruited players that won a national championship. Self is a much better X and O's coach, who can overcome any perceived disadvantage KU has in recruiting. Just about every pundit in America has US as the number 1 team next year, so Self is fine. Two National Championships in 3 years, is about as impressive as it gets.

I think both coaches have benefited and elevated their respective programs in recruiting and image. I heard an interview with a scouting director with scout.com, and he said Roy and Self are the Number 1 and Number 2 recruiters in the nation. Roy was fantastic while he was here, but he left unfinished business. Self finished it. I think the next 15 years will reestablish the rivalries of the traditional powers (KU UNC UK) and we're gonna win our share, and so will they.

jaybate 10 years, 9 months ago

dmoneyball,

The '98 team was a fine one. And Pierce and La Frentz were consensus All Americans.

But here's the point. Mike Bibby and Miles Simon were consensus All Americans, too, and Zona won it all. Zona had as much talent as Roy--apparently more, in fact, because Zona won it all.

And Antawn Jamison of UNC that year was drafted higher than Pierce and LaFrentz, and Bibby and Simon, for that matter.

How many Number One draft choices did Roy recruit in his 15 years at KU. None.

Did Roy ever land a Tim Duncan at center? No. In fact, LaFrentz and Collison, if you call them centers, were the best he ever landed. The rest of his centers were something he had to work around for the most part. Pauley, Ostertag and Chenwith do not exactly strike fear into the hearts of opponents.

There were a ton of incredible basketball players in college basketball during Roy's 15 years. And while he recruited quite few guys who were eventually drafted into the L, he recruited relatively few that were Lottery Picks.

Zona, Duke, UCLA, and UNC all had more total draft picks than KU during the 1990s.

From 1949-2008 KU is not even in the Top 10 schools in Top 10, Top 5, or Top 1 draft picks. Now Roy only accounted for 15 of those years, but if Roy had been hauling in the best players during his 15 years, surely he would have pushed KU at least into the Top Ten schools on this list. He didn't.

Besides, even if I conceded that Roy had the best talent in 1998, which I don't, that leaves another 14 years when he clearly did not have the best talent.

If the guy had recruited the whole country, he would have had more good player and he would have gotten a bigger cut of the great ones.

hydrohawk 10 years, 9 months ago

Lone_Salina, Exactly! I thought the world was coming to an end when Roy left but in retrospect his departure was a blessing in disguise. KU fans should be lining up to thank Roy for going back to UNC because it led to us hiring the best coach in the country. Self is an early morning stone cold bad ass and after he wins another NC next year everyone in the country will agree.
… And X Henry is clearly going to be a Jayhawk, it shocks me that more of you have not come to this realization.

kufankam 10 years, 9 months ago

jaybate,

just because arizona was the hottest team in 97 in NO WAY means they were the most talented. sure they got the best of three number ones. give them credit for it. they were the champs that year. however, the fact the only mike bibby, mike dickerson (sort of) and jason terry went on to further careers in the nba as opposed to the 5 jayhawks that are rep'd in the league spoils your argument. it further proves what i have been telling you all along.... you just don't want to listen. roy had the talent here, they just couldn't deliver. there was more talent on ku's sideline. it is obvious. anyone that thinks a team that produced 2 nba players and went 25 and 9 is more talented than a team that went 35 and 2 (2 losses by a combined 5 pts) with 5 nba players is missing something. have you not noticed that not a single person agrees with you? and yet, you contend that there is NO WAY your argument could be flawed?!

that oh so talented arizona team lost to the following teams that year:

new mexico (one recognizable name on the roster) michigan usc washington ucla twice oregon cal & stanford

now maybe, just maybe, it wasn't that zona was the more talented team, but a team that got hot at the right time? yeah, that's it!

Brett Glover 10 years, 9 months ago

dbg jayhawk posted this earlier, you should all look at it. scroll past the stuff about oden and look at the stephenson. I don't know if all this is true, if so it's definitely changed my view on him. http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/9430598/For-now,-Przybilla-better-than-Oden

Brett Glover 10 years, 9 months ago

and vitale has us preseason number one already, i know it doesnt matter it's just pleasent to hear. http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=4050016

Eric Williams 10 years, 9 months ago

mizzousucks89,

I read that article from foxsports (the section on Lance). Wow!

I would rather have X right now, or nobody. Self should rescind that scholarship offer immediately. Let him go to St. John's or Maryland and struggle so mightily that the NBA tells him to stay in school. Then he'll think "Dang, I'm stuck at a crappy program for another year".

Chicago_JHawk 10 years, 9 months ago

Just read on Zagsblog that Sporting News' DeCourcy (we all know how unreliable he can apparently be, so take it with a grain of salt) reports that HCBS put Lance on hold to because of a concern about whether or not his website bornready.tv violates NCAA regs. Zags also quotes X as saying they'll attend KU "If my brother can get out of his thing (at Memphis)." I'm not sure what happens if he can't!

I think Stephenson is a great talent, but I was wary after watching the video on his site where he gets fouled on a playground and responds by firing the ball at the guys face!

hawk_of_ages 10 years, 9 months ago

Despite inheriting NCAA sanctions when he first arrived, Roy brought 14 McDonald's All-Americans to Kansas in 15 years.

In addition to that, some of his recruits who did NOT make the Mickey D's team include: Adonis Jordan, Scot Pollard, Kirk Hinrich, Drew Gooden and Keith Langford.

As a comparison, Bill Self has had 6 Mickey D's players in 6 years at KU. Larry Brown had 3 in 5 years.

End of discussion?

hawk_of_ages 10 years, 9 months ago

OK, sorry, I still can't let this go... I see that Jaybate had the gall to disparage not only Roy, but also some of the greatest players in Kansas history.

Yes, Jaybate, Raef LaFrentz and Nick Collison WERE considered the best big men in the country during their senior years. The facts speak for themselves. Collison was a consensus All-American and led his team one shot shy of the national championship.

And Lafrentz? He was only a consensus All-American for 2 years running, never lost a game at Allen Fieldhouse in four years, was the 3rd pick in the 1998 draft, and oh yeah, one other thing: remains 2nd all-time in Kansas history (to Danny Manning) in both points and rebounds. He WAS considered the best big man his senior year, and his junior year the only big man rated above him was ... Tim Duncan.

Which brings us to your other ludicrous argument: Why didn't Roy recruit Tim Duncan? I mean, never mind that NOBODY recruited Tim Duncan except Wake Forest, and he wasn't even considered the top big man in Wake's own recruiting class as a freshman. Even Dave Odom didn't realize what he was getting. But Roy should have had a crystal ball, huh?

But your wording was, why didn't Roy recruit "a" Tim Duncan? That's a more reasonable question, I guess. Why couldn't he have gotten one of those many other college centers in the '90s who were on Duncan's level? You know, like ... uh. ... Hmm. Well, I'm sure there was somebody.

sydhawk 10 years, 9 months ago

Wow, Jaybate. Usually you're the Master, but damn -- you're getting OWNED on this one...

jaybate 10 years, 9 months ago

hawk_of_ages,

You're really reaching here, fuzzing up the boundaries between issues, telescoping reality to try to get some kind of traction, while running like heck from the facts, and trying to cloud the water using the utterly phoney argument that I am disrespecting KU players. What a joke! Me disrespecting KU players? That will happen some time after the sun burns out. Raef and Nick would be the first guys to admit that they weren't the best big men of the 1990s. They were very good bigs. They weren't great. Neither could hold Danny Mannings jock strap on a basketball court...and even if you don't know it, they do. Roy never landed any Danny Mannings in his tenure.

Now, to get off the bigs for just a moment.

Again, Roy never had the best player in college basketball on his team any year. If he had had Carmelo Anthony, KU would have another ring. If he had landed some of the great ones, on any of his Final Four teams, he would have probably won the ring in each of those years. What is so difficult about this for you?

Now, I always like to give some credit, when I undress someone like you on the facts, even when you are being arrogant as heck without any apparent reason for arrogance. So here's your lob. At least you are not resorting to the limp wristed tactic of ad homming; that much I compliment you on.

Calling my argument "ludicrous" can't be supported by the facts, of course, and so it is an utterly unpersuasive, but at least it is not ad homming. Persons usually resort to "ludicrous," when they haven't got the facts on their side, even after conflating issues, yet, are trying to resist ad homming. Again, my compliments to you.

But you are stuck with an indefensible argument woven through conflation of issues and laced with the groundless accusation that I am disrespecting KU players.

Let's abandon the obviously refuted notion that Roy tended to get the best players and have the deepest talent of any program in the 90s.

jaybate 10 years, 9 months ago

Let's now veer back to the bigs and lop the head off that issue once and for all, as well.

Compare LaFrentz and Collison to the great centers of the 90s in D1 college basketball and tell me where they rank? Which one is the best center of the 1990s in college basketball? Which one ranks among the Top 2 centers of the 90s? The top 3 centers of the 1990s? Tell me. This I gotta hear. I can maybe imagine you reaching for one of them being in the Top 3 out of frustration, or because the best centers were jumping straight to the L. But go ahead. Lay it on me.

Next, since neither of them were true centers, which one was the best 4 position player of the 1990s? Which one was in the Top 2 players at the 4 position of the 90s? The Top 3? Again, this I gotta hear?

They weren't even legitimate post men. They were both good 4s. Period.

While KU wasn't winning even one ring during this period, Duke was a monster power. I hate Duke with a passion, but they were getting waaaaaaaay better talent year in and year out than Roy got in his best years.

Heck, Jim Boeheim squandered more great talent than Roy landed.

How many KU players during Roy's tenure were the Number 1 draft choice in the NBA? Zero.

Did Roy have the most players drafted Number 1, Number 2, or Number 3 in the NBA draft among D1 coaches during the 1990s? Well the answer is absolutely not regarding the number 1 pick, because he never had one. I don't have time to look it up, but I believe Roy would not lead even if you broaden the screen to Number 3. He might not even lead if you broaden the screen down to Number 5.

Were you watching college basketball in the 1990s?

A large part of the reason Roy came to be held in such high esteem is that he was winning at an 80% pace without having the best players year in and year out. He was incredible at getting lesser talents to stay longer periods and play to the absolute max of their envelopes, plus finding talent out in the bushes that no one else recognized, and bringing it into his early 9-10 men system of running on offense and trapping on defense, and kicking gluteous against teams that couldn't handle that style of play. Roy was forever oscillating between having a core class and having diddly squat. He was never able to consistently fill the cupboard with the kind of depth he sucks up at UNC now.

And even when Roy had LaFrentz and Pierce, which were consensus All Americans, he couldn't put enough talent on the floor at 1,2 and 4 to win it all with them.

It was the same every year. He could put a lot of talent on the floor, coach the heck out of it, get them to leave it all out on the floor, but he eventually always ran into opponents, even with his best teams that had as much talent, and more.

I am amazed you even think you have a leg to stand on in this discussion, much less express same with an inexplicable arrogance that you are necessarily right!

kkoenig 10 years, 9 months ago

interesting back and forth on RW's eastern recruiting. any data regarding the players he targeted during his period who went elsewhere? anyone from the eastern part of the US on that list?

Andrew Moore 10 years, 9 months ago

By saying that there wasn't enough talent around Pierce and LaFrentz to win it all, you are leaving out the fact that that team lost 2 games all year by a combined total of 5 pts. That doesn't sound like a team lacking in talent. That sounds like a team that ran into a hot team in the tournament.

If you think that if we'd had a guy like melo that we would've won that Syracuse game in '03, you're ridiculous. We lost that game by 3 pts and missed 18 free throws. That is a sad story that I don't like bringing up, but my point is that the talent was there. That is a game that we SHOULD have won, in the sense that under normal FT% (even Memphis' FT %) we would've won and the reason we didn't had nothing to do with the talent level. There are plenty of great college players - highly touted recruits - that came to Lawrence over Roy's tenure. Don't forget that this is Kansas, to us its the best basketball in the country, but to the coasts its the middle of nowhere. Geographically its an uphill battle with some of these kids who grow up in love with the ACC/PAC-10.

You base your argument against Roy's recruiting on how these guys perform in the NBA, not how they were in college while at KU. Jaques Vaughn, Aaron Miles, Hinrich, Collison, LaFrentz, etc, these guys have not had the NBA careers that they wanted. They have been somewhat letdown, but that doesn't change what they did in college. See: Tyler Hansbrough - I can't stand him and he'll probably flop in the NBA, but I can't take away the fact that he dominated the college game for 4 years.

Bottom line: Roy just couldn't close the deal here at Kansas, a lot of that, I think has to do with experience. He didn't really have it here at Kansas, but he's starting to put it together out at UNC.

btw: I was rooting hard for MSU, didn't do any good I know, but I do not like UNC at all. I don't hate Roy. Roy has nothing to do with why I dislike UNC.

kufankam 10 years, 9 months ago

nice try jaybate...

you just wasted your time and ours.

hawk_of_ages 10 years, 9 months ago

Calling me "arrogant" sounds suspiciously like an "ad hommie," as you would call it.

Please list for me the college big men who were superior to Raef Lafrentz and Nick Collison during the time they were at KU. Tim Duncan is one. Anybody else?

To suggest that Raef and Nick were anything less than "great" college big men is just revisionist history based on their NBA careers. I've already laid out their credentials above. The facts speak for themselves.

And just who were all these superior big men that Duke and UNC snagged during this period? Between them there was Rasheed Wallace, Brendan Haywood, Elton Brand, and Carlos Boozer. Can you even think of any others worth noting? The only one of those who won a title was Boozer -- yet even he was not considered superior to Gooden or Collison in college.

So let's review: Raef was the best big man in college basketball his senior year. Gooden was the best big man his junior year. Collison was the best big man in his senior year. Pierce was the best or 2nd-best G/SF his junior year -- tossup between him and Vince Carter. Hinrich was the 2nd-best guard his senior year behind Dwayne Wade.

Sounds to me like KU did pretty well.

Another point you have failed to address, despite the fact that several posters brought it up, is that it's simply easier to recruit from UNC than it is out here in the hinterlands. That's been true at least since Michael Jordan's days -- again, even hapless Matt Doherty had a recruiting bonanza at Chapel Hill. So Roy's success in recruiting at UNC is a red herring in evaluating his success at Kansas.

Another red herring, of course, is that no Roy team ever produced a No. 1 pick. Hmm. you know who else never produced a No. 1 pick during Roy's tenure at Kansas? North Carolina.

If you want to expand it out to picks 1-3: Kansas had one (Raef Lafrentz, #3, 1998 -- but of course, as you say, he wasn't a "great" player). And the Tar Heels? They had exactly ... one (Jerry Stackhouse, #3, 1995).

So who is the one "running like heck from the facts" here?

rockemchalkemrobots 10 years, 9 months ago

"I don't have time to look it up"... Have to laugh about this part of your post, jaybate. You do seem to be too busy writing to find the facts to back it up. Something you seem to deride in most of your post.

I'd say two of the most important output categories you're looking for in a college big man are points and rebounds. Here's the list of college players with 2000 points and 1000 rebounds:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NCAA_Division_I_men%27s_basketball_players_with_2000_points_and_1000_rebounds

Collison and LaFrentz are both on the list. For the record, KU has three players on this list and NC only has two (Hansbrough being the recent addition). Duncan is the only one from LaFrentz's era to join him there.

While you can argue that talented kids like Chrises Bosh and Wilcox would have certainly made that list but for their move to the NBA, I would counter that the stock of players of their ilk was unbelievable high because of their potential, rather than accomplishments. This also goes to the fact that the NBA draft is not a particularly good judge of college-level talent. The late 90's into the mid-00's was such a speculators market when it came to the NBA draft. You had such top picks as Olawakandi, Yao, and Kwame Brown. Teams were drafting high ceiling guys who were just as likely to have low floors. Can we put the NBA draft pick analysis in some perspective?

jayhawkboogeyman 10 years, 9 months ago

Is there really a jackass on here arguing that the players who made 1990-2000 the winningest decade for any team ever until Duke surpassed by a couple wins this decade were inferior talent just because we never won a title? I'm sure no one was saying Paul Pierce and Raef LaFrentz were inferior players when we were 35-1 in 1997 before the UofA game, or the Drew Gooden/Nick Collison/ Kirk Hinrich team that went unbeaten in the league, they were definitely worse than the players on that 20-loss UNC team. This is just stupid. What kind of Jayhawks fan comes on here and says that our players weren't good enough to win a title just because the coach never quite got it done. Roy Williams didn't sabotage anything; only a jackass would say something like that. At some point, winning in the tournament just comes down to pure luck, like Derrick Rose's free throw that clanged all around the rim and fell off, and saying the kids are inferior because a couple things didn't go their way is idiotic.

jayhawkboogeyman 10 years, 9 months ago

NBA draft picks mean nothing to the individual team's accomplishments. That might matter in recruiting, but ultimately what they do or don't do after KU has nothing to do with how good they were at KU. This article is about Xavier Henry, not Roy Williams, why don't we look forward to how we are going to kill it next year instead of living in the past crying to Backstreet Boys songs and watching highlights of the tournament games we lost.

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