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Friday, January 26, 2007

Mayer: Self has same rep as Owens

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Bill Self could be hooked on the horns of the same dilemma that periodically surfaced during the 19 seasons for Ted Owens as Kansas basketball boss - great recruiter but journeyman coach, visa versa, or periodically a little of both?

Owens' critics contended that Teddy could get the talent but wasn't a hall-of-fame tutor. Lots of us thought that, for most part, the opposite was the case, particularly after adjutant general Sam Miranda got unceremoniously sacked following the '77 season and Ted had to coach even better the next six years.

Some heralded kid would be brought in and not achieve stardom but would do pretty well because Teddy worked on him. The player might be nowhere as good as his high school credentials but would respond to tutoring. More on that later.

It's an incessant buzz about how many top-flight players Self signs, like the current roster with all the high school All-Americans. When things turn sour, as they did in that 11-missed-layup debacle at Texas Tech, talk grows that Bill can get 'em but that he and his staff don't get the most from 'em.

After the victory at Baylor and with people licking their chops at the prospect of a romp past Colorado here Saturday, the thinking may be more balanced. Self and his dandies are again on the front-burner with the fluctuators. Everybody has a theory.

Sam Miranda was easily one of the finest coaching aides KU ever had. Super-serious, he wasn't always a lot of laughs, but the one-time Indiana star could teach basketball from all angles. He was the main reason Owens got an early reputation as a boffo recruiter. Miranda factored in landing and refining people such as Dave Robisch, Jo Jo White, Roger Bohnenstiehl and Tom and Bob Kivisto from Illinois.

Well, Wichita Heights High was a state titlist, and Darnell Valentine and Antoine Carr were the two big reasons. Coaching Heights was Lafayette Norwood, and somewhere along the line, Owens got the notion Norwood could deliver both Valentine and Carr in Lawrence in a convoluted package deal.

Lafayette was hired as a KU assistant for 1978, Valentine's freshman year here; suddenly Sam Miranda, who had done so much so well for the program, was out. Wasn't right, but it was so.

Carr, meanwhile, had another season at Wichita Heights, then chose not to follow Norwood to Lawrence, as KU had gambled. He entered Wichita State where at one time the roster also included Greg Dreiling (for one year), Cliff Levingston and Xavier McDaniel. Dreiling transferred, sat out a year and played three years here for Larry Brown. Valentine and the other four all had pro careers, at times outstanding ones.

Darnell was here 1978-81, same for Norwood, who maintains a Lawrence residence and later coached basketball and golf at the junior-college level. Miranda had a fine career in the travel business with Maupintour and is still here. He's one aide the Jayhawks NEVER should have let go.

After Sam left, KU under Owens had a 107-68 record and won a Big Eight title in 1978. After 13-14 and 13-16 records in '82 and '83, athletic director Monte Johnson ousted Ted and brought in Larry Brown, who hated recruiting.

I still think Owens was a better coach than recruiter. So what combination can we apply to Bill Self by the end of this season?

Comments

Dale Kroening 13 years ago

Its the same things they said about Roy,Boheim,Olson,and(Donovan before last season).Until Self wins it all it will unfortunately continue to be said.Its kinda funny I live in Springfield,Illinois and the Illini fans are screaming that Weber cant coach or recruit .Illinois team isnt great by any means but they have a winning record at 15-7.Geesh!Go Hawks!

jackhawk 13 years, 1 month ago

I am a Jayhawk fan and alum (have been all my life) and I am very happy with Bill Self as our coach. Too many times we hear from a handfull of disgruntled "fans" and we write that up as if it were an all out rebellion. Points to be made: one, we have wonderful players, but we don't have a monopoly on them; other teams have great players, also. Two, we are 17 and 3, for goodness sake. What is it, exactly, that we expect?

yates33333 13 years, 1 month ago

I think it is obvious. Thus far he is an outstanding recruiter. He needs to hire an assistant to develop players. He also seems to be a likable person. Jackhawk needs to ponder the three losses, to whom and why.

argentinehawk 13 years, 1 month ago

I also am very happy with Coach Self being our coach. I think he's a great recruiter and a good coach. I also think that one day he'll be a great coach, here at KU, when he wins a NC, and I really think it's coming in about the next 2 to 3 years!! But I also think that coach Self could use someone like Norm Roberts back here with his coaching staff. Wasn't he with Self at Tulsa and Ill. when they went to the Elite 8?

cklarock 13 years, 1 month ago

It doens't matter how many Happy Meal All Americans you have, you can't recruit experience, and we should all try to remember that our team is led by Sophomores sprinkled with Juniors, and is without any first-team seniors. Some baffling losses (and a few that make sense) are going to come along with that inexperience.

On the flip side of the coin, these guys are talented enough to also produce some moments and stretches of really fantastic basketball.

I think I'm having as much fun watching this team as I have in a long time. Nice job, Coach-- glad you're at Kansas and I wouldn't trade you for any coach in the nation right now.

DB Ashton 13 years, 1 month ago

My experience was that Ted was an astute, conscientious, forward-looking recruiter but that he did not relish it. It is, after all, a frustrating and often demeaning chore. I also believe he was significantly underrated as a teacher and as a tactician. I would agree that he, inevitably, became stale. His strengths as a person did not always translate to strengths as a big-league basketball coach, which is, in my view, to his credit. It's also fair to say that coaching from the bench under fire was not Ted's strength, in conspicuous contrast to Larry Brown, who was a master.

BigTrav 13 years, 1 month ago

Mayer is a, pardon the language, but a jacka$$. Let the man at least build his legacy before you begin to tear it down.

Personally, I think Self is one of the best recruiters in the nation. As far as his coaching goes and the ability to develop players, let the guy get a few years under his belt before you throw him to the wolves. Personally, I like the fact that he has guys like Danny Manning sitting on the sideline to help develop players.

I highly doubt in a game situation, coach Self is sitting there thinking, we should run a play to get J. Wright a look from beyond the arc.

I also think at some point you have to put some blame on the players as well for not playing within themselves. J. Wright should know that hitting three's is not one of his strength's. Arthur should know that a 10 foot hook shot fading away from the basket is not one of his strengths.

I just laugh when people are so quick to judge a person when their just starting out. Come back in 20 years from now and then judge the guy if you want. It's like going to a movie, watching the 1st 5 minutes of it and then telling everybody it sucked. Watch the whole damn thing and then give your thoughts and I don't mean till the end of the season. After his career at Kansas is over give us your thoughts, until then, shut the hell up Mayer.

GIHAWK 13 years, 1 month ago

I thought Ted's worse attributes was during game situations. I believe we lost to Kentucky with a 9 point lead with something like a minute to go. He would sit on the ball after a lead and it ended up biting him at the end.

I do remember Sam Miranda and he was the tough disciplinarian and Ted the nice guy. I guess I didn't know the full extent of him leaving at the time. Thanks for the article Mr. Mayer. Didn't know some of the inside stuff you mentioned back then...

Chuck Stones 13 years, 1 month ago

It appears to me, as a fan from the sideline, that coaching and recruiting are worlds apart since Ted Owens was the coach. If you are getting the top tier recruits, as Kansas does, the coach does not know from year to year who will be back on the team next year. Ted never had that problem, he could plan and structure his team based on players being around for 4 years. Now, you never know. I don't know how you recruit and plan your team that way. Jr and Sr leadership is very valuable. Think of our superstars the past few years and how our teams would have fared if they had been THE team their soph and fresh years.

So, if you are a great recruiter like Coach Self, you have to keep getting in the blue chippers every year which presents its own coaching issues. I've always wondered if it was easier to coach a team with a true, go guy with good complimentary players (like Danny and the Miracles) or to coach a team with 6 or 7 great players. It seem to me that a team like we have now might be harder to coach and get to play together when they are all great players and nobody really knows who to go to. One or 2 go-to guys seems to be the ideal situation to coach.

JayCeph 13 years, 1 month ago

Jackhawk, it is an inane declaration to negate one's 'fan-dome' based on whether or not they laud a coach or question that coach's choices. Get real. Allow for some comparative discourse.

BigTrav, that goes for you too. Come on, man. Mayer is just exploring the perception of Self (probably based on a lot of the postings on this board) and contrasting that to a well-know figure in KU history that appeared to suffer from the same maladies.

It is foolish to wait for the end of a career before one is allowed to be judged. That is how we all get raises at work, promotions and make career moves. If that weren't the case, then why was Self given a contract extension and a raise. Shouldn't we have waited 'till his career was over before we hung laurels around his neck?

tomike 13 years, 1 month ago

Quote:"I just laugh when people are so quick to judge a person when their just starting out. Come back in 20 years from now and then judge the guy if you want."

That is why I don't think they are people. They are wizards.

tomike 13 years, 1 month ago

Qutoe: "It is foolish to wait for the end of a career before one is allowed to be judged." Yeah, it is very wise to compare a person whose career has just started here with those who have finished.

kranny 13 years, 1 month ago

Winning a national championship is about hardwork, talent, perserverance, and a little bit of luck with the officiating. Bill Self is one of the best coaches in college basketball and we're lucky to have him. We're 17-3 with some tough loses that were due to inexperience. But any Jayhawk fan can see that the team has improved since this time last year. If these men stay for 4 years, a final four bid will be a given. But in this day and age of early exits to the NBA, there is a lot of pressure on a coach to get to the final four in the first two years of landing a one or two blue chips. Our coaches need to recruit student athlete that have character and our universities need to continue to reinforce the idea of "obtaining that degree" as being an important part of one's life and not just going after the big bucks. Once an athlete understands that, then he or she will stay for the 4 years and build the chemistry that is needed to have a team win a championship. Danny Manning knew that, and the Florida team understands that. I think if Drew Gooden would have understood that, we would have beaten Syracuse. I wish that the LJW and other publications would stop writing the stories that focus on an athlete's decision of whether to stay or go pro like the recent one with Darrell Aurther. The stories they should be writing are ones about what the athlete's plans are "after" they get their degree. That should be the reason why they go to college-not just to win championships for the fans.

JayhawkPhil 13 years, 1 month ago

I am not a Mayer fan but have to admit he makes a few good points in this article. Here is my take on Self so far. Through most of his career he has coached low level talent and made them over achieve. Now he has top level talent and is getting frustrated trying to get them to play up to their potential. I think a good coach is a good coach and once Self figures out a way to motivate and coach players with top level talent then we could be challenging for the Final Four every year like we should. I think he can do that. The only question is how long it will take. With all the current players on our roster who want to go pro early, maybe he can use that to motivate them the rest of this year. Evaluating Owens is a whole other story.

Jacobpaul81 13 years, 1 month ago

Some one made the comment that Bill needs to hire an assistant to train players? What? He has Tim, a high caliber college player, and he has Danny Manning, one fo the greatest college players and an NBA All Star sitting on his bench. What more do you want?

Ted Owens got the "Great recruiter, poor coach" moniker namely because Ted Owens was a firm believer in 4-corners, keep away basketball. Owen's best teams would get up 10-15 over a team, and then play 4-corner keep away, trying to run out the clock. The problem was, Owen's teams also had a habit of losing the lead, and losing the game while playing keep away.

Bill's teams don't play 4 corner keep away, or try to slow the game down and waste clock (it would be bad for business and bad for our record). Bills team, at least in it's current incarnation plays to fast, and is sometimes out of control. Bill can correct this problem, and is not the direct cause of it. That's the difference between Bill and Ted (bad pun), Bills problems can be fixed, Ted caused his problems.

JayCeph 13 years, 1 month ago

tomike, Self's career just started? Wow. I thought he came up through the ranks at KU and OKSt as an assistant and then moved into a head coaching spot at Oral Roberts, Tulsa, and then Illinois before he got the job at Kansas. I must be mistaken.

You're right, we should give this 'greenie' a lot more time to season his approach before comparing him to any other coach in the history of basketball... least of all Ted Owens.

Sometimes, I read people comparing Self to RWilliams but that would be uncalled for as well. Williams has been coaching for many more years than Self and the duality there would be inequitable: right? I wonder if there is any other coach out there that has only been coaching for the fraction of the time that Self has. Probably not.

There should be no comparative analysis of the current KU head coach to anyone else from any other time, what-so-ever. That would be... what did you say, unwise? Right.

BigTrav 13 years, 1 month ago

JayCeph, I understand what your saying, but comparing Owens to Self, at this point in Self's career, is irrelevant.

Owens had 19 seasons I believe, Self is in his 4th year at KU. I just think it's totally irrelevant to compare coaches that have such a significant difference in the amount of seasons they've spent coaching. If Self wins the National Championship even once over the next 15 years, then he's not only one of the best recruiters in the nation, then he's also going to be considered one of the best coaches in the nation, EVER and the similarity of him being like a Ted Owens is still irrelevant. That's just my point.

JayCeph 13 years, 1 month ago

IF he wins a national tourney, then you'd be right. I'm hoping your right... ;)

'Till then, let's take care of business this weekend against the Buffs. I hope we don't let that THAT team sneak up on us. Not at home, not a conference foe.

Keep on Chalkin'!

kufan80 13 years, 1 month ago

I have fond memories of Coach Miranda at Coach Owens basketball camps when I was a kid in the 1970's.

We learned the fundamentals of basketball from Coach Miranda. One of my basketball buddies decades later saw me when I was showing my son how to shoot. My buddy shouted out to me, " Hey, still got that good form!"

Thanks Coach Miranda!

timwatson 13 years, 1 month ago

Our problem is, we don't have any floor leadership. Self can't do it from the bench. We haven't had a floor leader in three years. Collins may be the guy later in the season. Maybe the new kid from Burlingame will have leadership potential, but we don't have a single leader on the team right now...unless it Collins and he's just too new or young to step up.

Royboy 13 years, 1 month ago

This story was written by Bill Mayer. Personally, I have no idea why the LJW keeps him on staff.......what a terrible article he wrote last week about Kaun's draft status increasing because he is white (what happened to Chenowith, then?). It is great to hear about all of this KU history, but the majority of the article has nothing to do at all with Self, and finally he comes to the very conclusion that is in the title. Why did I waste my time reading his article.

Nathan Mattison 13 years, 1 month ago

Coach Self is definately not a great coach, IMO not really a good coach (please name a game where he outcoached someone), hopefully, like our team he grows from some of our recent disappointments (tournament, inferior opponents) and proves me totally wrong.
I personally feel his talent compensates for his coaching shortcomings and so far he continues to do enough to appease the KU faithful, but his honeymoon is coming to an end and people want results and are really looking at how our team moves (or stands around) on offense, and some other decisions that can reasonably be questioned (zone defense, not pressing in certain situations).
I hope/expect the kind of domination we had in the 90's, which happened with arguably less talent and a tougher conference schedule. Maybe this isn't fair, but it comes with the job, being pretty good, or saying "a lot of teams would be happy with 16-3" is not the kind of program I think KU is, or should be appeased in being, save those accolades for our football team.
I agree he needs some new assistant coaches to replace Roberts, it appears the assistants havent been getting the job done since his departure (FYI Manning is not an assistant coach).
I think Self seems like a nice guy, and the kind of person that I would want as our coach but I need some substance and some proof he is in fact a great coach, which is the kind of coach a great basketball program must have.

Michael Leiker 13 years, 1 month ago

I have a quick question, not related. I just found out that Cornish was in the Shrine bowl last week. Was there an article on here about that to let us know he was going to be on? I really wish I could have seen that.

kranny 13 years, 1 month ago

Natehawk, if your only satisfaction is a national championship and that's the only standard for a coach being great you are giving a grave disservice to a lot of guys who have had great coaching accomplishments. Jim Boeheim had the same critics for years despite all the final fours and having a fairly good graduation rate and having kids of great character.

Jacobpaul81 13 years, 1 month ago

Manning is not technically an "assistant coach". This is true. But for all intensive purposes, he is. He does serve as a coach in practice, but is not allowed to recruit. If it weren't for the recruiting responsibuilities, he'd be an "assistant coach". Currently, he's chosen not to be one at this point because he doesn't want to spend his life on the recruiting trail and leave his young kids. However, you watch KU's big men under the basket, and tell me they haven't been working with Manning. I see his influence in all of them.

danimal33 13 years, 1 month ago

Natehawk: You speak of domination in the '90's. How many national championships did KU win in the 90's? NONE. KU won a lot of games, but they never won the big one. How is that any better than what they are accomplishing now? This team WILL reach its potential, and I believe that a lot of you will be eating your words when they do. How about a little SELF-respect.

Rock Chalk!

Craig Lang 13 years, 1 month ago

Name a game where Self outcoached someone:

KU OT win v. Florida last November KU win by 30 over OK St. earlier this month KU win v. Texas in Big 12 tourney finals KU OT win over Georgia Tech 2 seasons ago

I know there are plenty of others, but these are the big ones. Just as our players are inconsistent, so is our coach. But to say that Self never outcoached anyone is about as far from the truth as you can get.

Kirk 13 years, 1 month ago

I think a lot of fans have the unsettling feeling that there is something missing from this team. A team which, after all, has done a good job so far -- so why feel queezy?

Yet something will seem missing until we go deep into the NCAA tourney.

We need a stronger sense of identity -- and that will take time.

Tim Hills 13 years, 1 month ago

I remember going to Hearnes Center in Columbia for a game in the late 70's. The first thing we saw when we walked in was a sign the students hung up on the wall that said "Ted is our 6th Man". That kind of sums up his respect and career at KU.

Don Johnson 13 years, 1 month ago

The problem with comparing Self and Owens is not as much in how long a coaching career you compare as it is in the times in which they coached. Yes, Owens liked to slow it down, and it often didn't work well. It led all to frequently to losing big leads and big games. However, that was big time coaching strategy before the shot clock and the 3-pt shot. I seem to recall this guy from one of those Carolina schools who made quite a name for himself doing it. I think his name was Smith or Jones or something like that. He won a lot of games, but had trouble winning a national championship until he had a team with some guys named Jordan, Worthy, and Perkins. The problem was you needed a floor general like Phil Ford to run it and even then an off night could kill you. It takes as much luck as skill to win a national championship. As to Self, he has taken teams far into the tournament, so he is capable. He just hasn't done it yet at KU, but he needs to soon because too many KU fans won't take anything but perfection. The jury is still out on Self's KU legend, but KU won't wait forever. I am sure that fact is not lost on coach Self.

As to Mr. Mayer, his heart and head are into a game that doesn't exist anymore. He doesn't write often. When he does, like so many of his generation, it's about the glory days of '52 or '88 or whatever. Heck, Danny and the Miracles was nearly 20 years ago. If you don't believe it, watch a tape of the game and look at the shorts those guys wore. Mayer is there at the LJW for all the old KU faithful to help them remember when they were young and vital with power in their games. He serves a good purpose for a certain segment of the paper's readership. Let him be. Few students at KU, at least undergrads, were even alive when Owens coached at KU. Certainly none of our current players were. Lest you think I'm just an imputent young snot, I am KU class of '73, right from the Owens era. Self will either make or break his KU legend over the next 3-4 years. I, for one, want him to succeed. Too often on this site, there appear to be posters who are the anti-Mayers, recent graduates without perspective who will only settle for immeidate success. Both ends of the dialectic have their problems.

hoops101 13 years, 1 month ago

I think many of you are missing the point of this article. Regardless of what you all think, the general rep that Bill Self has developed in the media and by basketball fans outside of Kansas, is that he is a great recruiter, but not an x's and o's guy, and struggles to get all of his talent to progress. Now to many of us biased KU fans, we may disagree with this assesment. But make no mistake about it, this is how Bill Self is perceived. While in Chicago for the Depaul game there was a large article in the local paper about how BS has outrecruited Bruce Weber since he came to KU, however the article points out that Self never could have gotten that group of players to the Championship game and that Weber gets far more out of his players. This is the general consensus and something Mayer is simply pointing out. Give him a break, he is just making an observation and that should not offend you people.

Joe Ross 13 years, 1 month ago

The thing about Mayer's stories is that he gives historical perspective to Kansas' teams. A lot of people here are too absorbed in the here-and-now, the "what-have-you-done-for-me-lately" syndrome, and you forget that the current team does not exist in a vaccuum in time. The fact of the matter is Kansas is steeped in tradition going back decades and you can not separate basketball from its history. The two are inextricably intertwined, and Mayer (one) gets that and (two) he's been involved with KU hoops long enough to be a credible source on the matter.

Now I don't know what's worse, the fact Mayer is so flippantly insulted here or that we have fans who don't appreciate our current history being placed squarely within the context of KU hoops history on the whole. Other schools are envious of the rich tradition here. If only they could be so fortunate. Perhaps we have gotten spoiled to the point that we don't appreciate those things for which we should be grateful.

I imagine many of you who argue against Mayer's drawing ties to the past are also the same ones that boast about the Inventor having coached here, the ingenuity of the great Forrest Allen, the incomparable Clyde Lovellette, the basketball giant (in historical context and in stature) Wilt Chamberlain, and Kansas' place in the top 4 or 5 schools in the country. Ladies and gentleman, this is a contradiction. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

"You can not know where you are going unless you know where you're coming from." Many of you, and I don't exclude myself, are given the luxury of a history lesson in KU hoops when Mayer pens his lines. Kansas basketball 404. And what's his reward? Ungratefulness! Calls for his head? Like John McEnroe would say, "You CANT be SERIOUS!!!!"

I guess there is a great divide between those on one side who think that Kansas' history begins with Bill Self's hire and ends with the present versus those of us on the other who appreciate ALL of Kansas' tradition. I am glad to count myself among the latter.

CasperCorps 13 years, 1 month ago

Did people really take the time to read this article? Talk about giving someone a headache, its like the old testament, this person is related to that person who knew that person whose uncle is related to that person... Self is doing a fine job. Yes his freshman and Sophomores have a problem focusing in some games but what kid doesn't? Don't all kids have A.D.D. now days? If we're gonna blame something shouldn't we blame video games.... P.S. could someone please compare the previous coaches record to Self's current record at Kansas....

kufan80 13 years, 1 month ago

I would say Mayer gives a historical perspective.

If you go to the photo section of KUSports.com, you can see a picture of Mr. Mayer chatting with Phog Allen.

Joe Ross 13 years, 1 month ago

Casper Corps...

Naismith: 55-60 (.478) Allen: 590-219 (.729) Hamilton: 125-59 (.679) Harp: 121-82 (.596) Owens: 348-182 (.657) Brown: 177-61 (.744) Williams: 418-101 (.805) Self: 89-27 (.767)

Self's numbers above are current as of the Baylor game on Wednesday.

kufan80, agreed!

beebe1 13 years, 1 month ago

From a class of '48, I'd say there was improvement in your comments! Mayer has been very important to the school and LJW. He has spent the time and effort to learn what has gone on before, and can make some valid comparison. To me, the jist of his article was to rehire Miranda. Not possible, of course, even if he is around. The comparison that was important to me was teaching the fundametals. We may have some good guys on the staff, but there is always something better. I think Miranda didn't get a fair shake; couldn't hurt to recognize that. My suspicion was that Owens didn't measure up as a recruiter. And hiring a guy to bring in a couple of recruits was Bad! He was adequate, perhaps, as a coach. But I'll have to say that Self should get credit for a terrific season! Only Roy had as good a year as I can remember, and the loss column expanded some in the season, maybe up to 7. Not many have turned in those kinds of records. Many of the complainers are very short sighted. Things have gotten better, but it doesn't seem fair to me to be after Self for errors you don't know that he committed. His successor, Weber, has certainly not been able to keep up with Self's record in IL. I don't know if anyone that one could get their hands on to equal or improve Self's record. Thank goodness the vitriolic guys have started to lose their voice.

speedy 13 years, 1 month ago

ted owens needed to win a nat. champ. the only problem was coming along when bad pff. at el paso, ill. recruiting at ucla[car salesman] and hollywood mystique made wooden a figurehead. h... any one who had lew alcindor,bill walton, and rich. washington should have won all of the time.
ted owens just was unlucky in the scedule by never getting the championship game instead of semi-final w/ ucla. natl media also condememed t.o. wrongly!

CasperCorps 13 years, 1 month ago

Thanks J. Ross.. So was Roy's record that much better then Selfs, his first few years here at Kansas?

Joe Ross 13 years, 1 month ago

Casper...

Self has coached 116 games here at Kansas. You bring up a good point, and Im sure this stat that I'm about to post will be repeated here and elsewhere. I didn't know this until you asked the question and I researched it.

Self's first 116 games: 89-27 Williams' first 116 games: 90-26

75JHawk 13 years, 1 month ago

Self's rep began among Illini fans. Owens' rep included routinely not filling the fieldhouse. The most troubling story I ever heard was an allegation from two different African American players that while Owens would speak to all of his white players, he would speak to only one African American player and have him relay the message to others on the team. I have no idea whether it's true, but the fact that players would say so whatever the situation is quite troubling.

actorman 13 years, 1 month ago

If Self wins the National Championship even once over the next 15 years, then he's not only one of the best recruiters in the nation, then he's also going to be considered one of the best coaches in the nation, EVER


I'll have some of what you've been smoking? One championship in 19 years makes you one of the best coaches EVER????? I'm not saying Self isn't a good coach with the capability of being great, but one of the best EVER?

I had a personal experience with Ted Owens at one of his camps that was not pleasant and was quite uncalled for, so I've always thought his "nice guy" reputation was that much BS.

As for Miranda, if he was such a great assistant why did he never coach anywhere else? Did he really love Lawrence that much that he didn't care about staying in basketball?

BigTrav 13 years ago

actorman, I'm not saying I'd consider him one of the best coaches in the nation if he won a championship, I'm saying as a consensus that the nation would consider him one of the best because I feel that's how a good majority of the nation measures a coaches success.

Robin Smith 13 years ago

Self is a fine coach. This article also is fine.

jross i appreciate your research. that is one fine stat. lebowski, you are right on. Kaun and D-Jax are both "the man"

to those of you hyper-critical posters: you are welcome to be hyper-critical and dissenting, but there's no need to be jerks about it, i.e. calling for Mayer Keegan or Self to be fired. Your right to voice your opinion comes with some obligation to be fair and honest but do not confuse mean-spirited jerkiness with honesty. if you do so it just shows that you are honestly a bad person and then nobody will heed your actual criticism which may be correct.

elarso 13 years ago

How good was KU when Hinrich, Collison, & Gooden were sophmores? Not near as good as this team.

elarso 13 years ago

Ask Illinois fans if they would still like to have Bill Self? He's a good coach everywhere he's been, and he continues to be a good coach. I believe he's a lot like Roy Williams. If you look at his overall record at Kansas and what he's done it's pretty impressive. If you look at a few tough NCAA tournament losses not so good. Too many Kansas fans are impatient. College basketball is a game where any team can be eat any team if they get hot, and people will finally get off Bill Self when he catches a break in the next few years. I believe the growth that happened in last years team made it success, and that this team is growing and will be an amazing team at the end of the year. Bill Self's record show s that it will. It's the same garbage that Peyton Manning received before this year and that Roy Williams received before he left KU.

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