Kansas defeats California, 78-63

  • 10 p.m., Dec. 22, 2010
  • Berkeley, Calif.,

Thursday, December 23, 2010

Bruise cruise: Jayhawks win ‘chippy’ contest vs. Golden Bears

Kansas forward Thomas Robinson tries to break free from being restrained after tempers flared against Cal during the second half as Tyshawn Taylor (10) and Cal’s Harper Camp (22) hang out on the periphery.

Kansas forward Thomas Robinson tries to break free from being restrained after tempers flared against Cal during the second half as Tyshawn Taylor (10) and Cal’s Harper Camp (22) hang out on the periphery.


Highlights: KU vs. Cal

Kansas defeated Cal, 78-63 on Wednesday Dec. 22, 2010 at Haas Pavilion in Berkeley, Calif.

— Ho ho ho and mistletoe? Peace on earth, good will toward men?

Kansas University’s basketball players obviously were saving those sentiments for today through the weekend, not Wednesday night during an intense, heated — call it a Scrooge-like — 78-63 victory over California in Haas Pavilion.

To summarize ...

Marcus Morris was ejected from the game for elbowing Cal’s Harper Kamp in the face with 17:23 to play.

Brady Morningstar was tagged with a technical foul for popping the ball out of Brandon Smith’s hands during a second-half stoppage of play, and Thomas Robinson was flagged for a ‘T’ along with Cal’s Jorge Gutierrez for a heated second-half exchange.

Oh yes, Robinson committed an intentional foul on Gutierrez in the first half, one in which KU — thanks to 13 points from Josh Selby and Markieff Morris — led 38-30 at the break.

“I thought it was ridiculous,” KU coach Bill Self said of KU’s players acting up during their 11th victory in as many tries. “We obviously contributed greatly to it. Cal was chippy also. We didn’t handle it well.”

The Jayhawks had things under control when Marcus Morris left the game with KU up, 47-35. Cal would cut the gap to four points, 47-43, at 15:27, before the Jayhawks righted the ship and won going away.

Markieff Morris by game’s end had 21 points, while Tyrel Reed had 18 and Josh Selby 18.

But everybody wanted to talk about the chippy plays in the game.

Self said he was “really disappointed in Marcus,” who Self said “got what he deserved.”

Morris will not be suspended for the next game.

“The thing that bothers me is when guys put their own agenda ahead of the team. That’s very very selfish,” Self said. “It was about as bad a basketball play as I’ve seen,” he added of the play leading to Cal immediately getting back in the game.

“Marcus is going to get punished big-time,” Self said undoubtedly ready to put some players on the early-morning treadmill after returning from holiday break the night of the 26th. “He’s not the only one. Brady knocking the ball out of the guy’s hands. On the positive front, it’s probably the most fun game we have played all year. Our guys liked that. We competed hard after it got close. When it is chippy, you need to beat them on the scoreboard. We need to mature. We don’t have a mature team and we have known that from the beginning. They are competitive, though.”

He said the chippy behavior is “because of the twins. They’ve got to wake up. We have to mature in some ways. They are competitive.”

The thing that bothered Self most? “That we felt we had to get the last word in,” he said of Morningstar committing the final ‘T’ of the night poking the ball away.

Marcus Morris headed to the bus and didn’t speak with reporters after the game.

Thomas Robinson noted: “It’s a physical game. You get hit sometimes. I went after the ball. He went after the ball. That was it. I got hit. I don’t know if it was intentional or not.

“Coach said he was mad at some dumb plays. We have to be smarter on the court.”

Markieff Morris said of his brother’s ejection: “I didn’t see what happened. You never want to get in the position you have to leave the game.”

Selby didn’t start, but he did play 17 minutes the first half, exploding for 13 points off 5-of-6 shooting, including 3-for-3 from three-point distance. Markieff Morris also had 13 in 15 minutes as the Jayhawks took a 38-30 lead into halftime.

Just four Jayhawks scored in the entire half. Tyrel Reed hit a pair of threes in four tries, while Marcus Morris also had six points.

Cal led KU, 8-5, but then was hit hard by an 18-5 KU run. Markieff Morris scored nine points and Selby six.

KU’s biggest lead of the half was 11 points at 36-25.

• KU center Jeff Withey did not play because of coach's decision.


Chris Shaw 11 years, 5 months ago

KU survived, literally, in it's first true road game of the season. In a very physical and aggressive game KU showed some of it's immaturity by not keeping their composure during some heated exchanges.

Offense: This was basically a game of spurts for both teams. KU played very well post T-Rob intentional foul all the way through Marcus' flagarant foul where he was ejected.

I will be honest, I am not a fan of the Taylor, Reed, Morningstar, Releford, and or Kieff or Marcus or T-Rob lineup. However, on the flip side, I love the Taylor, Selby, Reed, and any combination of the 2 between Kieff, T-Rob and Marcus. I thought that combination played the best tonight.

The Hawks for the most part played pretty well throughout if you take away the mental lapse's from the "Flying Elbows". I felt Kieff and Marcus were out of sync for a brief stretch in the first half letting 3's fly. They were a combined 1-4 and 2 of them were completely ill advised shots when KU was trying to extend on their 8 and 10 point lead.

It was nice to see KU get their FT shooting touch back as they shot 15-18 for 83 percent. Between Reed and Selby they both shot 6-12 from Deep so I'll take that. Get rid of some of those 3's by the Twins and KU's 3 point shooting was very efficient tonight. I also loved the fact that KU was back to dishing and creating again for others as they had 15 assists on 28 made Field Goals. Now that is production.

Defense: I thought the individual perimeter defense was fantastic tonight. Everybody was swarming and trying to get out in the passing lanes and that created some nice easy transition buckets as KU had 10 steals.

We didn't see much "Double Teaming" by KU tonight in the post and I was kind of glad. I'm not a big fan of that defense, but then again Cali isn't that big in the post either. I did think that for some mild stretches during this game that the Cali posts "Outworked" KU's big's. Cali did have 13 offensive rebounds. I don't think The Twins and T-Rob were completely focused tonight evident by the fact of T-Rob's intentioanl foul and Marcus' ejections. That's just a mindset thing you can't let happen.

Player of the Game: Well, I'm giving a Co-MVP despite what anybody says. My Co-MVP goes to Josh Selby and Tyrel Reed. Reed had probably one of the best games of his career and it's no shocker that it comes at the disposal of Josh Selby in only his second game of his career. The pair of Selby and Reed work really together almost like a teeter totter.

Chris Shaw 11 years, 5 months ago

Reed was everywhere tonight. He knocked down 3's, He had some great drives to the basket, had a fantastic "And 1", was stifling on defense, and was everywhere on the boards. His statline was 6-11 for 18 points, 3-8 from 3 point range, 7 rebounds, 2 steals, 1 assist, and 1 turnover. Career game and I expect more games like this out Reed with Taylor and Selby Creating for him. Reed is the "Lee Humphrey" of this Kansas team and he's going to be a joy to watch for the remainder 2/3rds of this season.

Josh Selby: Don't worry, I haven't forgotten about the other C0-MVP. Can you say "WOW"? Even his misses are spectacular! The only thing not falling for Selby last night was his "Floater" but even those resulted in 2 offensive rebounds for 4 points for the big guys.

As was Reed, Selby was everywhere. That steal where he went behind the back and then crossed back over only to give a lob pass to Marcus was oh so sweet. Pretty amazing actually!

The thing about Selby is.......he is in control at all times and knows exactly what is he going to do even when he doesn't know what he's going to do 95 percent of the time. It really is a joy to watch. His ability to create for himself and others is simply remarkable. I think the thing that most impressed me tonight was the fact that during the last 7 minutes of the game he was controlling tempo, taking care of the basketball, and telling people where they needed be. He was in complete control, had confidence that is almost borderline abusive cockiness (This is a good thing) and the scary thing is, he is just a freshman. Wow just Wow!

Tyshawn Taylor: Stat wise Taylor had a rough night, but all in all in the grand scheme of things I don't think Taylor played all that badly. Yes, He shot 1-8 from the field, but he was getting a lot of contact in the body when he was driving to the rack. The great thing is, which is different from the old Tyshawn Taylor, is he didn't sulk and kept playing and battling through his own struggles. That is a sign of a true winner. Rough night, but there is more good than bad from his performance tonight so in the long run that is only beneficial for the Jayhawks.

Kief: Overall he had a great game stat wise with 21 and 10, but he took some bad shots at important parts of the game. Kief is a little soft on the block at times and needs to toughen up. He gets pushed off the block at times and when that happens he needs to kick the ball back out to the perimeter so he can re-establish his position. He "Settles" at times for shots. I did love the "What are you doing?" response by Self when he took that ill-advised 3 in the first half. Very solid performance for Kief. Just needs to toughen up a little more

Chris Shaw 11 years, 5 months ago

Tavis Releford: He looked a lot better in the second half and towards the end of the game than he did during the first half. Releford did have some problems on the defensive end tonight, more so than other games we've seen him play. He is playing out of position now, but that is giving him more minutes so it's hard to complain to much about his production. He just needs to "Slow Down" and it will come to him. That first lay-up of the game after his steal was downright ugly. Hammer that baby!

Elijah Johnson: I am really feeling for this kid. He looks confused, lost, lacks confidence, and ultimately just doesn't know what to do out there. I don't know what else to say. His confidence is totally shaken. As a player, once you lose your confidence, and you feel you're giving your best for your coach, it's very hard to climb out of that mindset. It is absolutely without a doubt a mind game with EJ. His constant "Thinking" out there on the court is completely destroying him. Physically he's fine, but his "Inner Strength" is being ripped right out of him. You can see it on the court. I feel for this young man, but it's also on him to change it. I sure hope he climbs out of it.

Jordan Juenemann: Yes, you get mentioned Mr. Juenemann. Your denial "D" on the inbounds pass from the opposite baseline was nice. Your hustle should never be questioned and you did everything that was asked of you in your 1 minute of play to help some of the other guys not pick up a cheap foul. Well done!

Well, You're probably thinking that I've forgotten to mention Morningstar, Marcus and T-Rob, but I've done that on purpose. I've saved those 3 for last because all 3 lacked "Mental Toughness". Sure, I understand you're not going to back down to anybody, but all 3 of you have to use your heads and not retaliate in those 3 situations. I would definitely say that Marcus and Morningstar let the emotions and the fire on the court affect their overall game and performance tonight. As for T-Rob, I think it kind of fuels him, but nonetheless he has to be smarter than that. Because of their "Lack of Mental Strength" they get nothing from me in terms of analysis.

Ashwin Rao 11 years, 5 months ago

Thanks for the detailed post. I missed the game (way past my bed time on a week day in the East coast!), so this analysis was something I was hungry for! I agree with all that you said (from my viewpoint from watching the previous games). This is our team.. this is what we get. Let us just cherish them the way they are! RHJH!

ParisHawk 11 years, 5 months ago

Excellent stuff, kushaw, especially Selby "in control". Just look in his eyes and you can see how concentrated he is. I loved his assist for our last bucket: school was reconvened for one last lesson.

I would cut TRob more slack than the other two: he was playing his game, just went to the edge a few times.

Chris Shaw 11 years, 5 months ago

I really didn't put T-Rob in the same category as Morningstar and Marcus, but nonetheless he was involved. I do agree that the second technical was bogus, but him throwing that elbow in the first altercation regardless is inexcuseable. The dunk was nasty! I like his emotion after the dunk just control his "flying elbows".

tis4tim 11 years, 5 months ago

Right on with Selby, kushaw. He is controlled chaos and he will only get better from here, which is downright scary. He'll have some bad games where his shot won't fall (or will he?????) but he's liable to do anything at any time and that's hell for game planning purposes. I am so very impressed with his command of the game and I am starting to see why he was so coveted out of high school. What a gamer!

On the flip side, I would disagree with you about Tyshawn. He seemed much more assertive yet selective until Selby was cleared. In the last two games he has regressed IMO. His passes are lazy and off-target and he almost seems to be meandering around the half-court without purpose. I also thought he was finally past that ball fake, dribble-drive, charging call he used to get two or three times per game, but it resurfaced last night. I agree the way he responds to adversity seems more mature, but Selby looks way more in command and comfortable in two games than either Taylor or EJ do after a couple years.

Nice recap.

Theutus 11 years, 5 months ago

To be fair, I don't see how we can judge EJ.

He comes into the game and is nervous (because he knows 1 mistake and he's coming out for the remainder)... As such, he makes said mistake and YANK.

That's not inspiring confidence. Your have to have faith in your guys if you want them to play confident... Self obviously has that faith in TT (and i don't really understand why). If EJ was given half the chance TT has gotten this season, i think he'd be just fine putting up better numbers than TT.

Ron Franklin 11 years, 5 months ago

At this point in time, especially over these next three games, I'd like to see EJ off the bench more than Brady.

EJ and WIthey really need these next three games for developmental purposes, or they'll be lost for the season...imho.

Chris Shaw 11 years, 5 months ago

They are already lost especially Withey. Withey will get "Spot Minutes" like Aldrich from 2008.

Chris Shaw 11 years, 5 months ago

To be fair EJ has had his minutes. He averaged 16.6 minutes a game prior to this game. He's looked "Shaky" in every game he's played this season and his confidence has been the same throughout.

EJ got picked big time up at top that lead to a transition lay up and Self left him. He didn't get yanked at all. EJ also had the opportunity in the first half coming off a screen and not only took an ill advised 3 (Right after the Twins two ill advised 3's) but he compounded it by pump faking, not going anywhere, and then basically double clutching for the clanked 3. That is not confidence!

Ron Franklin 11 years, 4 months ago

I agree with everything your saying. I just hope the next few games are blowouts so these guys can get some more minutes. That's all.

Chris Shaw 11 years, 5 months ago

tis4tim: How you been? First, we're having a Jayhawk party at my home for the K-State game. Just check the Charlotte Jayhawks page.

I agree with you about Taylor. I'm not denying that he had a bad game, but everybody has bad games and I was impressed with the way Taylor handled it. One thing is for certain is that the officials were consistent all night on KU's offensive possesssions. Selby and Taylor couldn't buy a foul going to the rack.

Not much you can do about Taylor getting to the rack and missing, but I did feel he was getting bumped quite a bit. It didn't get called and you have to play through it which I thought Taylor did exceptionally well. I don't thin it's all bad, he is trying to adjust to Selby as well. The PG position is often the most difficult to play. I think Taylor and Morningstar are asked todo more and shoulder more than anybody else on the team from their coach so cut the two of them a little bit of slack. I don't give them much, but it is something to consider of the overall dynamics of the team.

Kye Clark 11 years, 5 months ago

Good stuff as always Shaw. First, I'd say that I thought our perimeter defense was above average, but not terrific. They had a few open looks, well make that wide open looks, as guys struggled to get through screens a couple of times. But still decent. And while we didn't see the double teaming of the post as much, what we did see worked perfectly. Selby got a couple of his steals from this defense.

I think Markieff probably should be included in a three-headed co-MVP discussion. Down to 3 bigs to start the game and then losing Marcus for almost all of the second half, for him to tally the minutes he did, post a double double, and not foul out was huge.

Anyway, I'm sure I'll post my own extended analysis, but wanted to respond to just a couple of points.

Chris Shaw 11 years, 5 months ago

I really wanted to include Kief as Co-MVP, but his shot selection is atrocious at times and it comes in spurts and comes in lumps with his brother Marcus which compounds everything (I'm talking about that 4 minutes stretch in the first half when KU was up 10 trying to extend the lead and Kieff and Marcus are just jacking up perimeter shots.

Don't get me wrong, I'm being nitpicky with Kief, but then again you have to be nitpicky when KU has guys as talented as the Twins. Despite Kief's stat line, I thought he was getting "Outworked" at times by the smaller Cali "Big's". It's no biggie, I've given the Twins plenty of praise up to this juncture of the season, but they both need to "Man Up" which has been lacking the last couple of games IMO. Thanks as always ICT!

Kye Clark 11 years, 4 months ago

Fair points. Especially when Tyrel grabs 7 boards you'd like to think Kief could have gotten more than 10. Perhaps he was playing it cautiously because he knew he had to play major minutes and he saw how easy it would be to get into another scrum or pick up a cheap foul battling for position. Maybe, just a thought.

You're dead on about the shot selection. They can both hit the trey, and I think maybe they get caught up sometimes in the flow of the game once Tyrel starts nailing threes and then Selby comes in and does the same. We saw that in the Arizona game where KU couldn't miss early so they kept jacking them up, what Jay Bilas kept referring to as "fool's gold".

Chris Shaw 11 years, 4 months ago

Good point about Kief playing it "Cautiously". That's an angle that I was I need thinking about. That's one thing we didn't need "Quadruple Flying Elbows" from both twins. Great point!

Chris Shaw 11 years, 4 months ago

Correction above: I was not thinking about.

KUfball 11 years, 5 months ago

This post is longer and more detailed than the article! LOL Looks like the second coming of jaybate haha

Chris Shaw 11 years, 5 months ago

It's funny, you can always tell who the "Newbies" are on the threads. You'll learn!

murph 11 years, 4 months ago

Learn what, shaw? That you, like Jaybate, have illusions that you have great insight? Hilarious.

Chris Shaw 11 years, 4 months ago

You must not like talking basketball. I love talking basketball, especially Kansas basketball. What did you think of the game?

Kye Clark 11 years, 5 months ago

Will post more later I'm sure, but something I'll address right now: the fact that Jeff Withey didn't play at all on a night Marcus gets ejected with 17 minutes left in the contest speaks volumes. No mention of a violation of team rules, so the only obvious conclusions are either he is dogging it in practice or is just much further behind expectations and development necessary to help this team. Come on Jeff! We need a 4th big. You've been here long enough to see the work the Twins put in to get better after their freshman campaign, and you've seen TRob develop into a absolute force in this now his sophomore season. Put in the work required to make the necessary strides.

Steve Brown 11 years, 4 months ago

we can.will win 29 games sans footer, but that march game, perhaps a S16 with the twins in foul trouble and Zero winded will we need a good solid dozen minutes from Jeff, he has until then to figure it out and get his feet stable.

KEITHMILES05 11 years, 5 months ago

Withey needs to step it up and start contributing. The last couple games he was absolutely pitiful.

Have to wonder if Tyshawn is threatened by Selby and it's getting into his head. He's like that with his ego. He just needs to play ball and he'll get his and stop worrying that he won't get what is coming to him.

Ashwin Rao 11 years, 5 months ago

I have the same feeling. Hope he gets over it. It is just maturity.

twlinks 11 years, 5 months ago

You can't fix stupid! He didn't get it last year and although he showed earlier signs of improvement this year, his play the last couple or three games is diplorable again. He's out of control and is not capable of "thinking" on his feet...period...which is really sad because he does have talent, but talent without thinking gets you what you've been seeing.

C'mon Tyshawn...grow up and be a man the rest of the year!!!

Ann Oneill 11 years, 5 months ago

That game was played WAY too fast for Withey. He would have gotten pushed around left behind had he been on the court. Could have used Mario a ton in this match-up.

Steve Brown 11 years, 4 months ago

TT was playing decent until Selby arrived, then he reverted to gunslinger.

he is over reaching, trying to be batman and ending up the joker, settle down TT. you are good enough as you are, quit trying to be Mario or Kirk we will love your consistency.

Brad Avery 11 years, 5 months ago

I thought Norm Stewart was retired. He must have been working on the Cal sideline Wednesday night. Just like the old Missouri teams, those guys were punks and deserved every "unintentional" elbow that came their way. They were obviously trying to bait the Jayhawks into retaliating by pushing and shoving. KU must learn to control themselfves against better teams, even when the referees are awful and lose control of the game.

loudog 11 years, 5 months ago

It must be a Cal thing.... my wife is an Oregon grad, so I was watching the Oregon-Cal football game earlier this season, and the Cal football players were a bunch of punk-a$$-b**ches, too.

kesmithstl1 11 years, 5 months ago

I truly believe Coach Self was disappointed in Marcus. That being said, he loved that game. At some point during the season, you have to find out what you are made of. If that means playing dirty, then so be it. I have no problem with the chippiness of the game. Self won't say he likes that, but I guarantee, when he watches film with his coaches, he will like what he saw.

STLJHawk86 11 years, 4 months ago

I agree up to a point. Self loved this game because his team got more competitive when things got chippy and didn't back down or get intimidated. I do not believe that he secretly relishes dirty play - even if the other team starts it. When things get chippy he wants his team to respond by responding on the scoreboard. They did that last night and he loves it - but all of the other extracirricular activities were unnecessary.

Dirk Medema 11 years, 4 months ago

Self LOVES playing tough, and "chippy" is not tough. Chippy is weak.

The scoreboard response shows toughness.

Jason Hines 11 years, 4 months ago

Self could show some toughness by benching our Marcus and T-Rob. Prove to us the post game speech was more than just hot air....

kesmithstl1 11 years, 4 months ago

You're nuts! That is the dumbest thing I have read today!

Jason Hines 11 years, 4 months ago

Nuts? Tough would be living up to the team is more important than the individual? Sit the individual down and let the team play.

Tell me why this statement is dumb?

kesmithstl1 11 years, 4 months ago

Dumb might have been harsh, I apologize! I just feel Marcus has already been punished (I'm sure he has blisters on his hand from the treadmill). T-Rob did nothing wrong! Self has to say what he did after the game. He's not going to say "well they started it."

Robert Murphy 11 years, 5 months ago

It looked like the Bloods and the Krips playing on the basketball court. The only thing this game lacked was a drive by shooting. At least two of the Cal players should have been tossed especially the punk with the pig tail . This is not how the game should be played however I blame the home team for the problem. No one who values the game can think his is how it should be played.

kesmithstl1 11 years, 5 months ago

I agree, that is not how the game should be played, but if the other team wants a physical game, and they are doing everything in their power to get under your skin, you have to sooner or later defend your manhood!

tis4tim 11 years, 5 months ago

"The only thing this game lacked was a drive by shooting."

To the contrary, Selby drove right by his man several times and took shots. :)

stuck88 11 years, 5 months ago

Yeah that punk with the pig tail was a total doucher! I wish I could just go up behind him and cut that pony tail with some scissors.

truefan 11 years, 4 months ago

The game calmed down a bunch when pony-douche sat on the bench with 4 fouls and as soon as he came back in all the talking and shoving started up again. He should have been ejected for hitting one of our players on two different occassions, but apparently only Cal is allowed to throw cheap shots.

FSUJHAWK 11 years, 5 months ago

Our immaturity button will be pressed again this year by certain in conference and tournament teams. Luckily, HCBS will get these guys under control, if not, they will eat the pine-plain and simple!

Physical, tough and determined basketball is certainly needed at Kansas, however, Thug Basketball is something we do not want associated with Kansas Basketball.

Make us proud boys.


jrbill67 11 years, 5 months ago

This team needs leadership. Thank heavens for the maturity and play of veteran Markieff Morriss,Tyrel Reed & Josh Selby. Marcus & Tyshawn reverted back to their younger days of poor play and stupidity. If this team is going anywhere this year, Marcus has to be on the floor and Tyshawn has to start making good decisions. It might also help if Brady started playing well. He has no shot and is average on defense and short on brains & leadership.

Robert Brock 11 years, 5 months ago

So, you are saying that Self is dumb for playing Morningstar? Interesting take.

AirCapJay 11 years, 4 months ago

Why can't Morningstar play like Reed? Reed has really upped his game this year. Morningstar has regressed.

BCRavenJHawkfan 11 years, 5 months ago

Yes it was ugly and our guys should have behaved differently, but this is just what was needed. This is the exact type of game to expect from conference opponents such as OSU, MU, and NU. And should we see Michigan State in March.

Don't overlook why it happened. 1. Cal players were constantly undercutting down low. I'm surprised there were not any injuries from those cheap tactics. 2. Cal was talking trash beyond the norm. During time outs the television audio could pick up those in the crowd mouthing off as well, and there was some pretty nasty stuff said. 3. I think our guys are searching for attitude. Maybe the Little incident should have been a signal.

jayhawkintexas 11 years, 4 months ago

I agree that Cal players were getting by with a lot of stuff that should have been called. Guiterrez should have been tossed from the game. We could have responded better, especially Marcus, but I understand why our guys reacted the way they did. Am I the only one that saw the Cal player swing an elbow Brady's way before Brady flipped the ball out of his hand?

shawk13 11 years, 4 months ago

I definitely saw that elbow as well. Looked like it hit Brady in the chest.

Ron Franklin 11 years, 5 months ago

TRob & Marcus' intentional elbows were unacceptable. In both cases they intentionally swung their elbows trying to make contact with Cal players chin.

They embarrass their program when they play like thugs, and they should both be suspended a game for this ridiculous behavior. Good thing he wasn't needed, because Marcus really let his teammates down last night.

I know Bill will take care of it though.

shawk13 11 years, 5 months ago

The actions of Marcus were absolutely unacceptable, I agree. He was obviously frustrated by missing the dunk at the other end and when the guy pushed his way around him to the low post he lost his composure and tried to elbow him.

Robinson's situation, on the other hand, was borderline in my opinion. While it looked somewhat bad on the replay, Cal's No. 2 was riding him for a good 5 seconds after the bucket was scored and had his arm tied up. TRob simply shook him off with enough authority to establish he wouldn't allow being ridden like that.

I have been taking note of Robinson's chippiness all season and I think it is a result of his incredible motor and competitiveness more than bad attitude... at least I hope so.

Craig Lang 11 years, 5 months ago

I watched the "double technical" play over and over, and I still don't see what Robinson could have done any differently that would not have resulted in Cal both getting the ball and getting away with a technical (if not intentional) foul. All he was doing was holding the ball and Gutierrez was wailing on him. I think it was unfair for the refs to call a technical on Robinson, and Gutierrez should have been ejected at that point.

Bear86 11 years, 4 months ago

Completely agree. I was at the game and Guiterez was way out of line. He should have been tossed. After the double T any time Guiterez touched the ball he was booed relentlessly by the Jayhawk nation in Haas Pavillion. It was kind of funny to see a player on the home team get booed continuously in his own house. Rock Chalk!! F-Texas!!

Ron Franklin 11 years, 4 months ago

agreed...the double technical was a joke. Refs called double, because they didn't know what else to do.

jayhawktalk 11 years, 5 months ago


Robinson's actions and those of Marcus are not even in the same category. Cal obviously imported the shorter, uglier version of Bill Lambeer. A cheap, irritating, mouthy punk with a pony tail. Guitierrez should have been tossed from the game (same as Marcus)... Period. Cut Robinson some slack. The only thing I saw him do was "shoo fly" a nuisance, and it certainly wasn't "throwing an elbow". I loved how Guitierrez became more aggressive after the scrum, as more people arrived to "hold him back". Typical punk posturing, "You're lucky these guys are here to hold me back... or I would be forced to sue you for my medical bills!" TRob would have dropped him like a bad habit.

Venting about Cal a little, but have to say that some of the antics made me embarrassed to be a jayhawk fan. It got ridiculous.

I haven't gotten through all the posts, yet, but did anyone else catch what appeared to me to be Selby trying to calm TRob down several times? Assuming I interpreted that correctly, it was a very poised. I thought Selby "fit" last night more than USC game. No shock, but great to see the pieces fitting more tightly together.

TT played great on defense; I thought he stood up and accepted the challenge. Not as fluid on offense this game as some in the past, but I honestly don't get the bashing. I thought he played well. People are looking WAY too hard to find issue with his play since Selby's eligibility.

Loved the token extension of the defense, as even the token pressure forces the opposing teams to be mentally alert from baseline to baseline and keeps our guys focused. Hoping that happens more and more.

The photo for this article reminds me of a little dog yapping away while standing in the protective shadow of his big brother. Unfortunate situation aside, cracks me up.

Ron Franklin 11 years, 4 months ago

Whatever. Robinsons first intentional was cheap as hell. Swinging that elbow around above the shoulders used to be okay. It's not okay anymore, they've changed the rules. I can't believe he wasn't suspended for the next game, as I think he and Marcus both should be.

If it was the first time he's done this, I'd want to be more leniant, but I've seen Robinson throw 4 or 5 cheap elbows this year. This is Kansas. They are above this.

shawk13 11 years, 4 months ago

I absolutely agree with your last point about Kansas having class and for that reason I have very mixed feelings about the game I watched against Cal. I would prefer a mechanical systematic team that lets their playing do all the talking, but that just isn't reasonable.

The reason why professional basketball never holds a candle to college ball in my books is because of the incredible passion that is shared between both the players on the floor and the people in the stands. Emotions inadvertently get the better of people in these situations, and while the Cal game was filled with far too many actions fueled by personal grudges, I share Coach Self's apparent view that it was at least a display of the team's ability to be competitive and gutsy on the road and not just lie down and be upset.

Hopefully the team can just "grow up" a bit and develop the composure to hold back their knee-jerk retaliation to cheap shots and instead punish them by scoring the rock.

I also agree with what jayhawktalk briefly started to point out, that Selby was one of the most composed players on the floor. The guy was ice for the entire night and was simply out there playing basketball. After the USC game I felt like he was a bit too cocky, but have absolutely no complaints about the way he played against Cal.

Chris Shaw 11 years, 4 months ago

I think you're right Shaw! I like the name by the way!

Travis Shinkle 11 years, 5 months ago

First, Haas was at least 30-40% KU last night which irritated the locals to no end. Every time the large KU contingent started to make noise or boo Gutierrez the locals tried to counter it.

Second, BCRavenJHawkfan is right on the fact that the Cal players were talking as much smack as K-State would--obviously two completely different schools and situations--but I do think that is a reason (not "the" reason) why some KU players took exception to the talking (Personally, I think Cal talking smack is on the same level as UMKC talking smack).

Third, the game was officiated, on both ends, by three refs who probably will never officiate anything but a Pac-10 game--and we know what kind of reputation the Pac-10 has with officiating. Ticky tack fouls, blown calls, and imaginary fouls was a large part of the problem last night; the refs allowed things to get out of control early. If this was officiated by virtually ANY other major conference officials, they (the refs) would have pulled the two teams aside early on and given them a stern warning--not so last night.

And fourth, once again I agree with BCRaven..., this game, with it's physical nature, should somewhat remind and prepare the Jayhawks for conference play. But, like I said above, Haas had a large KU crowd last and comparatively speaking, the Cal fans are docile, sleeping children compared to the conference road game environments that KU will play in the next two months...

Jared Grillot 11 years, 5 months ago

I listened rather than watched, and though I couldn't see what was going on, Bob Davis could, and the sarcasm and his disdain for the refs just oozed out of my speakers. I find it hard to believe the folks who were saying that we needed to just toughen up and get it under control, when both Davis and Piper were obviously disgusted with the officiating. I lost count of how many times they both commented on no foul being called. We were gettign mauled ala Mizzou in the early 90s, padded with every tick-tack foul imaginable, and people are hassling our guys for not taking our mugging like a good sport. Sure, we lost our cool a couple times (Brady, what were you thinking?), but I don't knock them for getting upset. That being said, the best way to shut them up would have been to attack the glass and the rim, rather than the players. Put them in their place on the scoreboard (this should have been a MUCH bigger spread), and they go home crying.

Chris Shaw 11 years, 4 months ago

I am just curious why you singled out Morningstar in your post? I would think Marcus should get singled out more so than anybody else. Not complaining, just curious why Morningstar got the "What were yout thinking?"

Chris Shaw 11 years, 4 months ago

Oh, I missed your post katbasher. 30 to 40 percent KU fans is awesome. I loved the "Booing" I heard when Gutteriez touched the ball. By the way, your avatar makes me smile everytime I see it.

Travis Shinkle 11 years, 4 months ago

Just say "no" to any form of Kitty Kats whether they be in the Rotten Apple, KS or in Dumpia, MO...

didjabuti 11 years, 4 months ago

I stated this on a different thread and I can't explain why it bothers me, but two of the three refs were from the Big 12. It is common procedure that the visiting team brings officials from it's own conference.

Sean Rodger 11 years, 5 months ago

We shoot the three ball way to much - we don't establish an inside game near often enough. I was sick of them jacking the threes!

BCRavenJHawkfan 11 years, 5 months ago

I tend to agree, but when all the brawling started our next 12 baskets were all dunks or layups. In other words, Cal was trying to get us to fall in love with that 3 by making it ugly inside. I like that our answer was to set up camp inside.

R2D2 11 years, 5 months ago

Now that "chippy" is in our vocabulary, below is somewhat of a definition for us to go by this season I found in a google search....

aggressive and hypersensitive, irritatingly resentful. The word is based on either the 19th-century ‘chip in’, meaning to interfere, or the later notion of having ‘a chip on one’s shoulder’.

tis4tim 11 years, 5 months ago

Frustrating to watch from a mental toughness standpoint.

When other teams dangle the "Jay bait" we have a tendency to oblige and let the other team get into our heads. In a few moments of frustration, a 15 point lead was reduced to 4 and we lost Marcus. That could have been disastrous. On the other hand, I don't know how much trash talking and cheap shotting one is supposed to accept before taking a stand. Whether Cal's behavior was intentional or out of frustration at our defense, at some point enough is enough. You eventually have to stand up to bullies. Despite the fact he admonished the team about their lack of control with his words during the in-game interviews, you could almost detect a bit of enjoyment on Self's face and in his voice at the fact we stood up for ourselves and didn't back down.

That said, we need to have more composure because if the tape reveals a retaliatory streak in our guys, more teams are going to use our reactionary nature against us when it matters. The last thing I want to see come tourney time is a zone defense built on instigation.

This is why I applaud Reed's performance last night even beyond his excellent stat line. He stayed level-headed as you'd want any senior to do and continued to play his game in spite of the added tension. He lead by example and it was great to see.

HAWKTOPIA 11 years, 5 months ago

This is a manly game. Push back or be pushed around. I have no fault for TRob, as that player entwined himself on his arm from behind, and very aggressively. While Brady should have held his flick of the ball, that too was an aggressive player chesting him face to face. stand your ground, make him go around. ball flicks will lead to blindness.

It is clear to see that Selby has inside and outside shooting prowess. he was a bit off on his driving floaters, but they will drop soon enough. Tyshawn needs to pull up and score from 4' and not try off balance bankers as finishing shots. get there, get square and POP! (or dish) if his shots inside 6' had gone 50% this wouldhave been a 25 pt win.

I was so happy to see us stand up to Cal gutterball. if we had taken the high road it would have been perfect. Wise man say, "don't wrestle with pigs, you both get dirty and onlookers don't know the difference."

If you are a bit obsessed with overviews, then forget the back and forth, when we make free throws we are hard to beat! when we shoot FT poorly we are but mortals.

Nothing makes an east coast hawk happier than hearing "Roooock Chaaaaalk Jaaaay haaaaawk, Kaaaay Uuuuuuuuu from the fans carrying our torch out west.

chriz 11 years, 5 months ago

Disagree on the Tyshawn take. He can usually finish VERY well within 10-15 feet of the basket. Just had an off night last night. Love the rest of your take, though.

Chris Shaw 11 years, 4 months ago

I agree with Chriz! Not a good shooting night, but as I said above was getting bumped a lot on the way to the rack. Chalk it up to a bad night. It's pretty nice when you have a bad night and your team wins by 15.

HAWKTOPIA 11 years, 4 months ago

i love tyshawn, and his first step is awesome. i wish he would just, "pull up, square up, and hit an easy one. when he beats a player with his first step, which is every time, he needs to convert. his path to the hoop is predictable and defensible. when he draws 2-3 players it has to be game-on! Every team need a player no one man can stop. once you draw a second and third player conversion should go to 75%. A silly close banker that only draws iron is not the best that should come from that penetration. dish, pull up, fake, hit reed or selby for a 3. when tyshawn learns to turn his quick step into team opportunity we will be unstoppable. right now when he breaks it's all him, and nowhere near 50% which is only moderate for inside conversion. dont get me wrong i love him.

Brak 11 years, 5 months ago

This is an immature team, but what it is really lacking is a leader. I can remember some games in a the last couple years when the Jayhawks would be getting disrespected by the other team and Sherron would get everybody together and instead of being chippy back they would just run the score up on them. Thats what I would have rather seen last night, beat them by 40 in their own house, too me that is showing the other team whats up compared to throwing some elbows.

Chris Shaw 11 years, 5 months ago

I thought Reed filled that role perfectly last night and his stats did all of his talking. I'm not a fan of a Freshman being a leader, but "When you got it, you got it" and Selby "Has It" with simply his demeanor on the court.

AsadZ 11 years, 4 months ago

Who do you think was the leader of 08 NC team?

Kevin Crook 11 years, 5 months ago

Despite all of the dirty play and baloney, we played much better in the second half. We took way too many quick, outside shots in the first half. When we do that we are a very average team. We don't need to take an open look 5 or ten seconds into the shot clock. We need to make the other team defend a little, get at least one good ball reversal. Look for closer shots, draw fouls, pass more, dribble less. Also I thought it was alarming that Withey never saw the floor too. I think he makes some surprisingly good plays when he gets a chance. He's obviously not made HCBS comfortable with his defense. Couldn't be much worse than what we have shown at times without him though.

Chris Shaw 11 years, 5 months ago

Damn you're hard on that kid. At least nobody can complain about Morningstar. Oh wait, you just did. He got his "15 Minutes" that everybody has been craving for and yet you're still complaining. The Sleeves are back which I am sure you noticed. I bet the Sleeves drive you nuts. I may order some sleeves!

Chris Shaw 11 years, 4 months ago

I would like to hear your theory on why Morningstar and the team is better with him on the bench? Please use some facts, stats, or something other than "What a Drag to the rest of the players nonsense"!

I also think you missed the "Fact" that the announcers also talked about how much the rest of the team respects Morningstar's overall diversity to this team. They appreciate the many roles and his complete sacrifice for the team over his entire duration as a Jayhawk. You probably missed that though.

Why does Morningstar have to score? Why would you want him to score? And.......your last point that a team can't win without scoring from all players? Well, Duke won a Championship with a guy averaging 28 minutes a game, starting and averaging 4 points and 4 rebounds a game. To put it bluntly, your theory sucks!

Steve Kubler 11 years, 4 months ago

I am normally a Brady supporter but last night he was not good. He had some silly fouls, the stupid T, and his passing was not up to norm. His D which I feel is normally decent was lacking during parts of the game. I mentioned in another post that I do not know what is up with him but I do wonder if he, along with Taylor, is off his game due to trying to keep up with Selby. I know he appeared frustrated at times and seems to be rushing things rather being in the flow of the game.

I do not expect much scoring from Brady, scorers we have in multitude. What is needed is someone to get them the ball in the right place at the right time and hit a three or two to keep his defender honest.. KU will need him 15-20 minutes a game as the season moves on and I hope his play the rest of the year is better than last nights.

hawksfan08 11 years, 4 months ago

I've posted this before but I'll post it again

The team was 10 points better with Morningstar off the floor as opposed to on it.

Last time I posted this I was told that statistics can't measure morningstars effect though. I am happy with his minutes though and expect him to be able to contribute in those 15-20 minutes. Last night was a bad game for him which I don't expect him to repeat.

DCLawHawk 11 years, 4 months ago

I thought Morningstar played poorly in this game, and your stat bears this out. This was his worst game. But his stats over the season (thanks for that link!) show he deserves to be on the floor. You have to compare him to the other options. Brady's impact on scoring averages to +7 for the season. Not as good as Reed, but better than Releford or EJ.

Helen Gross 11 years, 5 months ago

Did anyone else her the RCJH chant at the end? AWESOME!

Funhawk 11 years, 5 months ago

HCBS wanted to be chippy and tussle on the floor, too!

Hail_To_Thee 11 years, 5 months ago

I would like to ask all those that believe our actions lastnight were out of line a simple question.

When does a man say enough is enough and take a stand?

Cal was physically beating us up all night. I dont mean just roughing us up a little bit. I mean excessive physical contact. That play when TRob got his intentional, look how it started. That damn ponytail dude was driving him completely our of bounds, so much that TRob looked like a damn half moon he was bent over backwards so far. There was no foul called on the Cal player.

I'm glad our players stood up for themselves tonight. If I were Coach Self, I would have been ejected because I would have been unable to control myself. The refs were so rediculously out of touch and you could tell from the first 2 minutes of the game that it was going to be that way. We had 4 fouls in the first 2 minutes. And they were some BS calls. The TRob, Ponytail scuffle proves how F'd up the refs were. I watched that scuffle over and over again after the game and I seen absolutely nothing that would make me think TRob deserved a technical. He went after a loose ball like he should have and he got control. He then covered the ball up and that F'n ponytail dude jumps on him and once again, starts shoving elbows into TRobs face. TRob kept his composure only until they pulled ponytail off of him. Only then did TRob appear that he wanted to rip that boys head off and sh!t down his neck. Again, I cant say that I blame him.

So, again I ask all of you. When is a player allowed to say damn it, GTF off me. If the refs will not make it happen, do we just take a beating all night? Should refs be disciplined for ironically "missing" all the stunts that Cal was making? I'm sure if questioned they would say "I didnt see that". Well refs, I hope you DVR'd the game and go back and watch all your mistakes. Learn from them and then learn to call a fair game.

ParisHawk 11 years, 5 months ago

You try to defend all 3 players by talking only about TRob. Morningstar's T was obvious and stupid. Marcus' foul was obvious, stupid and very much against the interests of the team.

Hail_To_Thee 11 years, 4 months ago

Again, in Bradys situation, the cal player lowered his head and purposely bumped Brady AFTER THE PLAY WAS DEAD. Again, another situation where the KU players had to defend themselves because the refs were not doing anything about it. In my opinion, thats another technical given to Cal if the refs would have had their heads out of their a$$es. The ref was standing right in front of them. Obviously, he seen Morningstars move, why did he not see the Cals player????? He called a T on Morningstar so everyone knows he was lookin.

chriz 11 years, 4 months ago

Yes! The refs completely screwed this game up. How can they look at a replay of TRob and the pony tail guy who is just angry because he's not Joaquim Noah, and not see what pony tail did to TRob?! The refs were terrible, the fans were terrible, ...I never want to see this game again. The only thing we can take out of it is that it has potentially brought this team closer together, and it has given them some experience with chippiness. We'll need that if we play Duke.

Hank Cross 11 years, 5 months ago

I was at the game and that was the toughest environment by far in the KU games I've seen in CA. At USC in 09 we took over the place. Most of the crowd at a UCLA game are ancient UCLA alumni so there's not much intensity. Last night the Cal fans seemed determined not to get invaded even though we did get the RCJH going at the end.

KU did act stupidly at times,but Cal(especially Gutierrez) was instigating much of it. A tough win in a tough place.

Chris Shaw 11 years, 5 months ago

How much does Haas seat? What was the ratio of KU fans?

Hank Cross 11 years, 4 months ago

The seats were listed at $35 and we paid 45. I'm guessing we were about 15%? It seemed we had more at the recent USC and UCLA games. In fact, in the article about the USC game, the LA times remarked about RCJH echoing through the halls as the crowd filed out.

We always have a big pressence for CA games. I remember the first Wooden Classic with KU, UK, UCLA and UMass. UK had the most fans, but we held our own with the noise at least with the UCLA fans.

As for the game, Gutierrez got what was coming to him from TRobb. That happened at my end of the court and even the Cal fans admitted that Gutierrez started that sequence.

KGphoto 11 years, 4 months ago

When you have a reputation as a tough team, the opposing coach is going to emphasize playing tougher against you. This was an overblown version by Mike Montgomery.

Originally I had worried that other teams would see they could get our players ejected by being a thorn, but I just don't see any other ref crews allowing this much nonsense.

Self chuckled all the way to the locker room. All the way home. And will be smiling right through Christmas, just reliving Marcus' elbow, Morningstar's flip, and the thought of what might have happened if TRob hadn't been held back. Because he knows what Mike probably said in the locker room before the game. But it didn't matter. Scoreboard.

An early Merry Christmas for him.

flyingfinn 11 years, 4 months ago

I really liked the mature play of Reed (a senior) and Selby (a freshman); kept the game under control when others were out of control. Don't know how mant rebounds Reed had, but seemed more than some of the bigs. TT took thre steps backwards, a point guardimply has to take care of the ball especially 3 years into the program and Marucs needs to grow and step up also as a leader.

flyingfinn 11 years, 4 months ago

I really liked the mature play of Reed (a senior) and Selby (a freshman); kept the game under control when others were out of control. Don't know how mant rebounds Reed had, but seemed more than some of the bigs. TT took thre steps backwards, a point guardimply has to take care of the ball especially 3 years into the program and Marucs needs to grow and step up also as a leader.

kstrebor 11 years, 4 months ago

Cal has ugly students and cheerleaders.

kufankam 11 years, 4 months ago

couple of thoughts:

  1. marcus needs to be smarter.
  2. brady needs to be smarter.
  3. robinson simply needs to channel his aggression elsewhere.
  4. commentators were HUGE homers... mostly in the sense that they simply knew very little about our team or anything east of the Rocky's. Do your homework boys!!
  5. the refs should have t'd jorge for continuing to push T-rob well after the ball went in. they T up thomas and basically tell jorge his antics were okay. this was his second altercation early in the game. the refs let this game become what it was. i rarely comment on officials as i have done it before. the first (minor) incident with jorge and selby was a great oppurtunity to nip that stuff in the butt. either with the sebly, johnson/jorge thing or the trob/jorge situation, the officials just needed to bring ALL TEN players together and look them each in the eye and let them know "This crap stops right now". It is called preventative officiated and is preached adamantly at the high school level (let alone, major D-1 level).

truefan 11 years, 4 months ago

The comentators were terrible. The kept saying that Markeiff Morris was not known as a good 3-point shooter...who the hell told them that?

kufankam 11 years, 4 months ago

yeah, and they also kept saying markeff was ejected, tyrel was from burlingham, and mistaked brady and tyrel and a couple of occasions. i really thought it was pathetic that on the t-rob "elbow" they failed to point out that guttierez was continuing to shove WELL after the ball went in. they praised him as a "competitor".... what a joke!

Travis Shinkle 11 years, 4 months ago

Watched a portion of the game this morning on DVR and one of the idiot commentators, early in the game, said that KU was from... "Lawrenceville"...Really?!?

As soon as I heard that the game wasn't on ESPN I knew it was going to be a typical PAC-10, back-of-the-truck operation. For as bad as some commentators are at times on ESPN (generally for being soooo pro-Big East), they at least get the cities/towns where the colleges reside correct.

Kye Clark 11 years, 4 months ago

I agree the commentators were horrible, but I find it funny how when I say I find Bob Knight to be horrible and how he doesn't even know whose on the court at times, or he mispronounces names, dozens of posters rush to defend him - saying that he just flies in for one game it's not like he's an expert on our team, or that he's old (not sure why that's a valid excuse...retire if you can't perform your job well due to old age). There's no talk of telling Bob Knight to do his homework. However these guys cover an entire conference and thus have to be experts on every team in the conference and have to be prepared for their opponents...and no talk of "it's not like they are experts on our team." Anyway, just a humorous comparison.

DevilHawk 11 years, 4 months ago

It's because despite his problems, Bob Knight is still significantly better than commentators on FSN and elsewhere on TV.

ahpersecoachingexperience 11 years, 4 months ago

I'm "tickled" that things got "chippy".

Anyone else notice Vegas has us at 2/1 to win the title. Best odds of any team.

KGphoto 11 years, 4 months ago

Hmm. No sarcasm about how that is completely overrating us?

ahpersecoachingexperience 11 years, 4 months ago

This is a basketball article. Where truth prevails.

Sarcasim only applies on the football side. You know, where we sign a two star recruit and you and 100 think we will be 2/1 favorites to win the national championship.

KGphoto 11 years, 4 months ago

How come you don't sound more disappointed about Arizona's odds at winning it all?

FreddyinLA 11 years, 4 months ago

This team will go further in the tournament if the ball is in Selby’s hands 80% of the time on offense.

It was refreshing to see this freshman take the ball to the rim where as our freshman last year never did.

Bear86 11 years, 4 months ago

The Jayhawk nation was well represented last night. The difference in the game was KU's depth and the offensive rebounds in the second 1/2. Tyrel Reed had his best game of the year! Selby needs to move to the point asap. TT is still strugling running the point. The Hawks still have a few more games to get their chemistry straightened out before conf play. MK played great. MC get's an D-/F. T-Rob & Releford played well and gave great minutes in MC's absence. Hat's off to all the West Coast Alum's that showed up last night. It's great going into your opponents house and hearing the RC Chant at the end of the game. Thanks TR for saluting the KU fans after the victory. You were the MVP. Rock Chalk!! F-Texas!!

Brian Skelly 11 years, 4 months ago

This team is a million miles away from being championship caliber. Not because they cant be, they can. But they arent yet. Tonight's game made statement loud and clear. I cant recall a more useless "#3" ranking for us in eons. If there's only 2 other teams better than us right now, then everyone else is brutal.

You cant be a great team if you cant get stops regularly. Sorry, you just cant. I dont mean when the other team just misses shots. I mean your defense forces the other team to take tough shots which decreases the odds of them going in greatly. We dont do that much at all. Some, yea. This team isnt going to win games against good teams by simply out gunning them though. All 4 Pac-10 games gave us a game and my guess is one of those makes the tournament.

Maturity is certainly part of the issue. But thats not something Bill Self can coach. Either these guys grow up, or they dont. That'll be a huge factor. This certainly isnt the first college hoops team (or KU team for that matter) thats had a maturity issue. Im not sold on these guys turning the corner on this either. I hope im wrong about that.

There is talent there, and athleticism and depth that makes us serious contenders. I think until we get serious about defending every possession and this team grows up appreciably more this team isnt going to go nearly as far as everyone seems to think it will.

I will ecstatic to be wrong however. As someone mentioned with Selby and the 'controlled chaos' its pretty amazing how much he can do offensively - 2 games in no less. Think how good he'll be when he actually figures it out. The talent is there. I just think we're short on the "D" and maturity part. Thats all.

jaybate 11 years, 4 months ago

You are right about many of the problems with this team, but...

Remember that rankings are just that: rankings of who is better and worse in a given year. This might well be the worst 3rd ranked KU team at this time, but relative to the rest of college basketball this season, KU is probably more deserving of its ranking than anyone but Ohio State. Teams just are not as bullet proof as they use to be, even 3-5 years ago, because they don't play together long enough. KU's 2008 ring team was an archaism, when you analyse it. Top programs just don't have a bunch of senior NBA draft choices on them in the contemporary game. Their NBA draft choices are all freshman and sophomores. This is just like last season. You could make a case that last seasons first ranked, number one seeded team was the worst first ranked, number one seeded team in KU history. But relative to the competition last season, KU was easily the most deserving team of its ranking of any in the top 5 last season.

The game keeps changing. If you don't keep recalibrating as it does, it begins to look all out of focus, full of undeserved rankings and so on.

I am waaaaay older than you are most likely. I have been fighting this age thing relative to the game for at least 20 years now. You've got to work hard to keep up with change. You've got to really take last year's lenses off and get this year's corrections put in the frames. You've got to do it each season. It is hard work, because every year that passes you learn so much and know so much more that you less and less surprises you. But concommitant with that the game is changing. It is a bird in flight and you have to keep moving your sight just ahead of it, or you miss it.

jaybate 11 years, 4 months ago

Florida was another archaism. There will be more KUs and Floridas, with those levels of experience, but they will get increasingly rare.

Hank Cross 11 years, 4 months ago

I don't get the part about the defense being the problem at all. Cal shot 38% and had their 3rd worst shooting night of the year, It must have been five minutes before they scored for the first time. This isn't football, baseball, hockey or soccer. The other team is going to score no matter what you do. The problem is that during that same first five or so minutes KU didn't score either. It's only been 2 games, but it looks like they're going to be looking to Selby to kick start the offense every game.

DevilHawk 11 years, 4 months ago

The #3 ranking may not be particularly motivating, but it fits the team soundly.

It's also important to remember that in March/April, where you are ranked doesn't matter. Ultimately, it is a question of how you match up with your opponent in each round.

The team still has a long way to go in order to play our best, but we do have an entire regular season and conference tournament to play.

Also, KenPom actually has us at #2 statistically (based on games through Dec. 22).

shawk13 11 years, 4 months ago

The commentators and refs have been harped on already but did anyone else catch how neutral the TV broadcast tried to portray the double technical situation?
When it first happened the commentators were talking about punches being thrown and showed a replay angle that clearly showed Gutierrez taking a swing at Robinson's face with his left hand. After that initial showing that angle was not shown again, and the commentators switched their banter to there being "no clear aggressor" and "not sure if any punches were even thrown." After the double-t was decided on, they started to show the lower-left hand replay again, but cut it short before Gutierrez threw the punch.

Not a lot I can do about it, but the way they played a replay that clearly showed a punch being thrown, then ignored and downplayed it, made my skin crawl.

Oh well, scoreboard I suppose.

jaybate 11 years, 4 months ago

"The Biggest Problem Facing the Current KU Team Outside of Doubting Fans"

When you are a new player, and when you are a new team playing a new nucleus, you get a break for awhile. It takes opposing coaches awhile to gather enough game film to:

a) recognize the weaknesses of individual players; and

b) recognize the weaknesses in the scheme being played by the new nucleus of players.

Until opposing coaches recognize both of the above they have to guess and gamble a bit on what exactly to take away, and how exactly to guard opposing players and schemes.

A coach like Self, a master of masking such things anyway, gives a young team a slightly longer cushion of protection from opposing coaches exposing those flaws.

But by December, sufficient data is usually available for coaches to begin to scheme to hamstring players by taking away one hand, or by giving a level of contact that disrupts a player's concentration, or to know to strip a big as he pivots with the ball too low, or position defenders on help defense to read the tells of a PG, or a wing man feeding the post, and then strip them senseless.

When defenses begin to scheme for these weaknesses is when you separate the young men from the basketball players on your team. Young players particularly often come unglued when the opposition begins to know their weaknesses better than they know them themselves. It is a harrowing moment to realize that what you have lived off of for, say, 8 years of competitive sports, has suddenly been taken away from you, because of flaw in your game you never thought was all that significant.

Learning to play with trusted parts of your game taken away is the great challenge of D1 basketball.

Just ask Marcus Morris.

Opposing defenses have keyed on Marcus, because Self has chosen to play through Marcus, and because opponents have a veritable MGM library of video available to data mine about his weaknesses.

But Marcus is a third year starter. How can he have so many weaknesses to be suddenly discovered and used against him?

Answer: Marcus has never been the go-to guy before.

jaybate 11 years, 4 months ago

Last season, opposing coaches were scheming on Cole and Sherron and X and saying if we get beat by Marcus, well, then we'll live with that. Self didn't ask Marcus to do much creating on offense last year. He just said, "You're going to be open alot because of the doubles on Cole, go to the rim, when its open." And Marcus did superbly well at that, so well that Self has made him first option this season.

But this means Marcus is in the unenviable position of suddenly having to fix a lot of flaws in his game in the heat of a season, not in some quiet Lawrence summer full of practice by day and sand bar parties at night, and water skiing in between.

This is the heat of battle.

New opponents keep coming faster and faster. The coaches study the last game, watch what has worked and what has not, and he sees steadily more of what worked. It is frustrating and at times harrowing to a player who is not used to being schemed against. And just about the time he fixes one flaw, they've found another one. And another. By mid January, the flaws begin to seem like the brooms in Fantasia carrying buckets of water--they just keep coming faster and faster. Or a red queen game. The faster you run to catch up with fixing your flaws the farther behind you fall.

Some guys crack and never recover their swaggers. All have doubts that they do not admit publicly to. The young men begin to be role players. Their minutes subside somewhat. It is not unmanly to crack. Anyone can crack. Not everyone is good enough to be a first, or second option player.

Marcus is feeling the heat right now. And it is going to get hotter between now and mid January, when guys start to turn the corner. Sometime around mid to late January, most of the flaws that can be exposed in the given scheme with the given teammates are exposed. From then on, if a go-to guys survives the harrassment and self doubt and stymying of professional coaches watching hours of tape just to screw one or two guys out of their comfort zones with annoying little wrinkles, a guy like Marcus seems to grow an extra pair. Sometime around mid February, these two pair get so big you can hear the slapping on the other bench.

The great advantage in March Madness of having an experienced team, such as KU's '08 ring team, is that all the seniors no longer have to worry about flaws being uncovered, if they are the core of the nucleus for a couple of years.

AsadZ 11 years, 4 months ago

Marcus seems to be very frustrated right now. Some of his recent facebook comments indicate the frustration as well. Hopefully he is tough enough to get out of it.

jaybate 11 years, 4 months ago

By 2008, BRush, RR, Mario Chalmers, Sasha, had had all their flaws exposed long ago. Self and they did not have to worry about being schemed against, since they had all long since learned how to cope with being schemed against. If they take away one thing, you go to the next thing. You don't lose your cool. You don't say, :"But that's my bread and butter, man, I can't play without my drop step and dunk." If they take your drop step and dunk, you pivot and shoot. You jump hook. You pass to teammates, and wait for the next game when you can do something, but you never panic. Playing with part of your game denied you is par for the course once the play gets serious in conference and post season.

It is a chess game out their not just in coaches heads, but in players heads. They have to see the game board. They have to be able to having things taken away and figure out what to do the moment...not wait for a huddle with Self.

The 2008 ring team is venerated not only because it won the ring, but because it was a completed, finished work of basketball art. Almost every player on the team had learned to play with parts of their game denied them.

They were champions that could get it done, however it had to be done, when it had to get done. Such teams are rare, rare, rare things.

Last year's team, though experienced, had a few too many players that could not find a way to win, when the bread and butter of the team was taken away. They were very close to being a championship team, but there were still flaws in that team being exposed even as it entered February and March. They were such a good team that they avoided losing almost all the time...until a UNI team exposed some flaws in their game and KU lost its shooting eye. The team had too many players that could not find a way to win, when everything was going against them.

This year's team is positively green in comparison to either of those teams. It is a new nucleus of old players fulfilling new roles, plus a bunch of incredibly green wood, at varying stages of psychological and physical maturity.

When Marcus Morris finally breaks through the hazing he is getting, it is going to get brutal on Selby and Kieff. And when they break through, TRob is going to be in a bucket of spit wondering what hit him. It is phenomenally tough to do keep winning as these guys are doing.

jaybate 11 years, 4 months ago

This team's biggest problem, outside the doubting fans that instinctively find the next flaw and hand wring about it, whether it is truly significant, or not, is the fact that it is very young; that it has lots of flaws to be exposed, and lots of things that can be taken away from it. But there came a time when John Wooden understood the ins and outs of how to win that he could win with green wood, as well as properly seasoned and cured wood. Maybe Self is reaching that point.

Just looking around at the competition this season, KU is in a similar position to what it was in last season. There isn't a potential super team, except maybe Ohio State. KU with Selby basically has a better blend of talent, experience, and numbers, and stars, than any other team in the country. No major team in the country is going to walk on the floor with fewer flaws and fewer points to exploit in a game than KU.

For these reasons, KU and Ohio State are almost certainly the teams to beat this season. Duke is getting by on last season's finish and cheap shotting. But without Kyrie, Duke hasn't got a prayer against KU, or Ohio State, today, or in March. And with Ohio State and KU practicing cheap shotting in games now a la Duke, as KU did against Cal, there is no chance Coach Consonants can steal another ring just by cheap shotting with a bunch of disciplined, but not exceptional talents.

Josh Selby is better than anyone on Duke.

Marcus probably will be better than anyone on Duke by March.

Ohio State is the team to watch. A friend warned me about them. I watched them. They are very dangerous. They are for real. Self could outcoach Matta, Selby and Marcus are as good or better than their best guys. But the rest of our players are going to have to get better to be able to beat an Ohio State.

They can.

But they are going to have to play through a lot of fear from flaws in their games being exposed and exploited between now and March.

jaybate 11 years, 4 months ago

Yeeee haw, any day I get you scrolling and not posting your bone headed takes I'm having a great day. Have you ever thought one thought about the game that my neighbors seven year old daughter could not rip to shreds and leave you looking like a laughing stock about? Nope. You are weak, weak, weak, and I am here to constantly expose you for it. You need Hudy badly. You lack muscle mass in your posts. You lack gism in your takes.You lack logic. Other than that, you're an absolutel mensch. Now keep scrolling so you don't embarass yourself today. :-)

jaybate 11 years, 4 months ago

And I love you madly. I have always been a sucker for the inept.

Coached any purses lately, ah?

Oh, my, you are more fun than a barrel of self flaggelationists.

ah purse coaching inexperience.

My kind of pretender.

Steve Gantz 11 years, 4 months ago

Wow, sounds like Murph and Jaybate are getting chippy too.

KU_FanSince75 11 years, 4 months ago

Reading Jaybates posts would be, well, like, the officials of last night's KU/Cal game going over to the monitors to review the replays-----LOL. Rock Chalk, Jaybate----I couldn't resist, man!

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