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2008 NCAA Men's Basketball Tournament

Friday, March 28, 2008

Mayer

Mayer: KU coach Self due - but not overdue - to win it all

By Bill Mayer

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If Bill Self doesn't win a national title in his fifth year on the job here, as Larry Brown did in 1988, don't consider him an underachiever. Lots of college basketball's greatest coaches have had much longer waits, including three illustrious tutors with Kansas roots.

Granted, Self this year has easily the best chance in his life to rule the Final Four - not just get there, but win. If he can't cut a hunk of net in San Antonio, it might be a while before he again has the potential that exists in 2008. It all depends on which Kansas team shows up starting tonight in Detroit - the drifting, hesitant, uncertain crew we saw falter at Kansas State, Texas and Oklahoma State, or the outfit that played like a national champion whipping Texas in Kansas City, Mo.

Self, for all his skills and perceptions, has no more of a clue than one of us how his talented bunch will respond in the last four games, if there are such. This is an outfit that is tough to read, even though it has shown signs of Final Four Fever since the Texas thriller. If sparkplug Sherron Collins is not at or near his best, the others can flounder.

But Self in his 15th year as a head coach deserves better than just to reach the Final Four. He'll get it if his players care enough to send their very best. The Jayhawks can't afford one more bad half and better think about hitting 70 percent of their free throws or we'll be playing Ray Charles' "Cryin' Time."

Back to long waits by most coaches for national titles. Larry Brown was in his 16th year as a head man in '88. Roy Williams was skunked 15 times at Kansas, then won his second year at North Carolina with four stars the fired Matt Doherty left him.

Those three Kansas guys? Phog Allen was in his 35th season here when his 1952 team produced NCAA and Olympic titles. Adolph Rupp was a scrub under Phog and took over as Kentucky coach for 1930-31. He was 17 years in winning it all in 1948 and 1949, then lopped off two more crowns before retiring after 1971-72. However, Phog and Adolph had no NCAA Tourneys to work with until '39.

The other KU late-bloomer? Dean Smith was in his 21st year at North Carolina when Michael Jordan's jumper nailed his first crown in 1982. Bob Knight won No. 1 in his fifth season at Indiana, but trained six years at Army.

Others of note: Hank Iba, two earlier jobs, then 11 years at Oklahoma State, two titles; Mike Krzyzewski, five years at Army, 11 at Duke up to the '91 victory over Kansas; Lute Olson, 24 years as head coach at Long Beach, Iowa and Arizona to get his '97 title.

Bill Self's looking better all the time, huh?

Branch McCracken at 31 was the youngest championship coach in NCAA history in leading Indiana past KU in 1940, then he broke KU hearts again in 1953.

The only genuine instant winner was rookie Ed Jucker at Cincinnati in 1961 and 1962. Assistant Steve Fisher was elevated when Bill Frieder was fired by Michigan for taking the Arizona State job before the tourney. Fisher with a 6-0 won in '89; never with his Fab Five.

St. John Wooden, two years at Indiana State and 16 at UCLA before starting that 10-out-of-12 run in Kansas City in 1964.

KU vs. Villanova

Comments

soobawls (anonymous) says...

Not winning in his 5th year at KU isn't the reason to consider him an underachiever. Losing back to back 1st round games to jokes like Bucknell and Bradley and the fact that we have haven't played to seed once (being the literal definition of underachieving)under him are the reasons.

March 28, 2008 at 6:15 a.m. ( | suggest removal )

NH_JHawk (anonymous) says...

Self haters, forget about the B teams. Roy had his bad tourney losses too (read UTEP/URI). If you think this is underachievement then you're a fool.

2004: 24-9
2005: 23-7 (Big 12 Champions)
2006: 25-8 (Big 12 Champions)
2007: 33-5 (Big 12 Champions)
2008: 33-3 (Big 12 Champions) - Through March 23

March 28, 2008 at 6:48 a.m. ( | suggest removal )

soobawls (anonymous) says...

NH, you do know what the word underachieve means right? I just want to make sure because you seem to think that Self's teams have met expectations when it is simply not arguable that they have NOT. They have been expected to win the Big 12 (Which is sort of like being the tallest midget in the world). They have also been expected to make it MUCH further in the tournament which they have not. Self has lost to a lower seed every year. That, my friend, is the very definition of under achievement. Pointing out other things that someone was expected to do, and did, does not cancel out failures in other areas. So, no, I won't forget about Bucknell and Bradley.

March 28, 2008 at 7:09 a.m. ( | suggest removal )

NH_JHawk (anonymous) says...

Soobawls - you know what unrealistic means right? I just want to make sure because you seem to think that anything short of reaching the Final Four or NC game every single year is not meeting expectations. And that my friend would be the very definition of unrealistic.

March 28, 2008 at 7:31 a.m. ( | suggest removal )

KU (anonymous) says...

Somebody hide the razor blades, sleeping pills and bed sheets! We need to put soobawls on suicide watch.

Bill Self is good for KU in so many ways. I hope he stays a long time. I also hope he brings home a National Championship this year.

Rock Chalk.

March 28, 2008 at 7:36 a.m. ( | suggest removal )

soobawls (anonymous) says...

No, what I seem to think is that they should occasionally play to seed. Now, if they are a 1 seed, then yes, they are expected to make the FF. My expectations are that they at least once out of 5 years play to expectations which they have not.

March 28, 2008 at 7:53 a.m. ( | suggest removal )

LAJayhawk5 (anonymous) says...

Hey, Soobawls! Take the negativity elsewhere, clown. When you get there, don't forget to SUCK IT!!!!!!!!

March 28, 2008 at 8:01 a.m. ( | suggest removal )

patton6 (anonymous) says...

@ Soobawls "Self has lost to a lower seed every year. "

Self's first year they made it to the Elite 8 as a 4 seed, where they lost in OT to 3 seed Georgia Tech. Just saying...

March 28, 2008 at 8:16 a.m. ( | suggest removal )

NH_JHawk (anonymous) says...

Soobawls - Based on your own definition of expectations and playing to seed "occasionally", Self did in fact, play to seed in the '04 tourney. KU (4 seed) lost to Georgia Tech (3 seed) in the E8. So not sure why you're hating on Self.

see link for 04 bracket:
http://www.sportsline.com/collegebask...

Look, I'm just as bummed as everyone else is about not bringing home a title in 20 years based on the talent level and teams we've had at KU. But please give Self a break. He's not the underachiever you make him out to be.

March 28, 2008 at 8:20 a.m. ( | suggest removal )

NH_JHawk (anonymous) says...

patton6 - nice read. you beat me to the post!

March 28, 2008 at 8:21 a.m. ( | suggest removal )

KU (anonymous) says...

soobawls......If the #1 seeds are all "expected to make the Final 4", why bother playing the tournament? By your reasoning we should just announce the 4 teams for a tournament and leave the other 61 teams out of it.

The tournament is the greatest spectacle in sports because of the drama.....the cinderella stories (think Bill Murray in Caddyshack!).......the upsets.......

Plus I read somewhere recently that only 36 +/- of the 80 #1 seeds over the past 20 years have made the Final Four.

March 28, 2008 at 8:55 a.m. ( | suggest removal )

agraves (anonymous) says...

We gave RW 15 years and he produced absolutely nothing for us in the means of NC. Ya he got close but never could make it over the hump. And yet we all were ticked off when he left and now we are ticked off cuz Self hasnt produced a NC and hes only had 5 years. Some of you need to get off the bandwagon and enjoy this team.

BTW...those teams in the late nineties with LaFrentz, Vaughn, Pierce, Haase, Pollard, Pugh, Robertson, and the list goes on and on were much more talented than this team as compared to the rest of the nation. Those teams from 96-98 should have walked away with atleast 2 NC's but guess what...we have a loss to Rhode Island...a loss to Arizona...and the closest we got was in 96 when we guess what...lost in the Elite Eight to Syracuse.

Lets give Self a little more time to prove himself. I for one think the expectation is high and he is trying to meet the expectation. Just remember that RW only won a North Carolina because he was left a TALENTED bunch of guys in May, Felton, McCants, and Williams. Mr. Self was not that lucky.

March 28, 2008 at 8:58 a.m. ( | suggest removal )

nickhawk (anonymous) says...

Coach Self has NOTHING to prove. Those of you who have never coached a team need to try it some time. To win consistently over a 4 month period is amazing. Coach Self never missed a shot or a defensive assignment against any B teams. If players at this level in this environment need to be "motivated," then the flaws lie there, not on the bench. I, too, hope they win it all, but also have enjoyed the journey so far. Even if they win it all, I'm sure some of you will still criticize either the point spread, style of play or the tie choice of Coach Self.

March 28, 2008 at 9:15 a.m. ( | suggest removal )

ChicagoJHawk (anonymous) says...

If there's one thing about KU fans that annoys the hell out of me it's the fact that no matter what we do it's never good enough. We can win games by 30-40 points & some of you are still complaining about how terrible we played.

When Self came to KU, Roy left him with nothing! Hinrich & Collison graduated & there weren't any great recruits coming in. Those 2 first round losses frustrated the hell out of me too but give Self a break. Besides, those weren't his guys that he was coaching. Now that he's coaching all of his recruits (w/the exception of Case) we're doing a hell of a lot better.

I know Roy made it to a couple final fours within his first few years but we had just won a national championship in '88 & I'm sure a lot of our studs from then were still around, thus making it easier for Roy to have success that he did.

Look @ NH_JHawk's post, we've won 30+ games in a season twice in Self's 5 years. We've only had 30+ win seasons 8 times in KU history! that's pretty damn impressive if you asked me.

March 28, 2008 at 9:25 a.m. ( | suggest removal )

ChicagoJHawk (anonymous) says...

"Even if they win it all, I'm sure some of you will still criticize either the point spread, style of play or the tie choice of Coach Self." - that's exactly right nickhawk, people always find something to complain about.

March 28, 2008 at 9:26 a.m. ( | suggest removal )

justanotherfan (anonymous) says...

A brief comparison of the five best Roy Williams teams against Bill Self's five years here.

RW
1. 1996-1997 (34-2) Conference champs, Sweet 16 loss to Arizona. #1 overall seed, no final four. 3 first round picks, 4.5 pros overall (Pierce, Lafrentz, Vaughn, Pollard, Thomas as .5)

2. 1997-1998 (35-4) Conference regular season and tournament champions, second round loss to Rhode Island. #1 seed, no final four. Had two first round NBA picks, 2.5 pros overall (Pierce, Lafrentz, counting Billy Thomas as .5).

3. 2001-2002 (33-4) Conference regular season champs, Final Four loss to Maryland. #1 seed. 4 first round NBA picks, 4.75 pros overall (Hinrich, Collison, Gooden, Simien, count Langford as .5, Miles as .25).

4. 1989-1990 (30-5) Lost in second round. Not a #1 seed, but should have gotten past round 2. 1 NBA player (Randall).

5. 1995-1996 (29-5) Lost in Elite Eight to Syracuse. #1 seed, no final four. 3 first round picks, 4.5 future pros (see above).

Bill Self

1. 2007-2008 (currently 33-3) in Sweet 16, #1 seed, potentially as many as 7 future pros (Arthur, Rush, Jackson, Chalmers, Collins, Kaun, Aldrich). TBD

2. 2006-2007 (33-5) conference champs, #1 seed, lost in Elite Eight to UCLA. 1 current first round pick (Wright), potentially 6 other future pros (Kaun, Jackson, Rush, Chalmers, Collins, Arthur).

3. 2005-2006 (25-8) conference champs, #4 seed, lost in first round. 1 current first round pick (Wright), potentially 4 other future pros (Rush, Chalmers, Kaun, Jackson).

4. 2004-2005 (23-7) conference champs, #3 seed, lost in first round. 1 first round pick (Simien), .75 pros (Langford, Miles), potentially 2 other future pros (Kaun, Jackson)

5. 2003-2004 (24-9) #4 seed, lost in Elite Eight to Georgia Tech. 1 first round pick (Simien), .75 pros (Langford, Miles), potentially 1 future pro (Padgett).

Only once in Roy Williams 5 best seasons (all with at least 29 wins) did he make the Final Four. While he never lost in the first round, he had two second round exits, a Sweet Sixteen and an Elite Eight. One of the second round losses was as the #1 overall seed!

Self has had the two first round crashes, but other than that has done more or less what he was supposed to do (Elite 8 as a #4, Elite Eight as a #1, currently in the Sweet 16 as a #1). We have yet to see Bill Self completely squander a #1 seed, as we saw Roy do in 1992 (second), 1995 (Sweet 16 in Kansas City!!!, the biggest failure no one talks about), 1997 (second).

Also, note that Self's winning percentage has improved every year since he has been here.

March 28, 2008 at 9:49 a.m. ( | suggest removal )

cklarock (anonymous) says...

The NCAA tournament is the most enjoyable American sporting event by a long shot, but it is a horrible measuring stick to guage coaching.

Bill Self has the best winning percentage of any Kansas coach. Bill Self is the best coach Kansas has had, and in my opinion among the top two or three guys in the country. I'm looking forward to this year's championship in part because I think his critics could use some silencing.

Rock Chalk Jayhawk!

March 28, 2008 at 10:37 a.m. ( | suggest removal )

kranny (anonymous) says...

Bill Self is a man of character, cares about his players despite their backgrounds, and teaches them how to be honorable men while playing basketball and getting an education. I'm a coach also and all the qualities that Bill Self has, we as coaches, teachers and role models try to instill in our players. Coach Self has done this and more. Jayhawk Nation wants a national championship and we will have one with Coach Self when all the pieces come together. But more importantly, we have a team that plays together, has character, and works hard towards getting an education. This to me is what college athletics is all about. This is what Bill Self has been hired to do and he is doing it.
Go Hawks!!!!

March 28, 2008 at 10:54 a.m. ( | suggest removal )

63Jayhawk (anonymous) says...

kranny, OUTSTANDING comment! We are very fortunate to have Bill Self as our teams coach.

March 28, 2008 at 11:17 a.m. ( | suggest removal )

BCRavenJHawkfan (anonymous) says...

justanother,
Wow, the 2002-2003 team did not even make your list after getting to the door of the promised land of the championship game.

March 28, 2008 at 11:26 a.m. ( | suggest removal )

vmwskywalk (anonymous) says...

soobawls = idiot

But we already knew this.

March 28, 2008 at 11:48 a.m. ( | suggest removal )

txrockchalk (anonymous) says...

BCRaven - I think justanother was using winning percentage to determine the best five teams for Roy. We were 30-8 in the 2002-2003 season.

kranny - I agree with 63. Reading your post reminds me how fortunate we are to have Bill Self as our head coach. If not this year, soon we will have a National Championship with him. We should just enjoy the ride.

March 28, 2008 at noon ( | suggest removal )

soapboxstew (anonymous) says...

It's not just about NCAA Championships.
It's about these kids.
Their lives.
How they grow.
It's about the great games played (UT).
It's about the heart breaking loses (KSU).
It's about crazy home games (KSU).
And difficult road tests (OSU).
It's about battling through adversity.
And becoming better people and ball players.
It's the stories that arise.
And the season that unfolds.

I pay attention to Jayhawk basketball all year long. From the recruits to the current players to the coaches, I pay just as close attention in August as I do in March. I can say this with all the confidence in the world: Win or lose tonight, these guys have succeeded. They have NOT failed (No matter what). I am proud to be a part of yet another great year of Jayhawk basketball.

March 28, 2008 at 12:35 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

NavyHawk (anonymous) says...

Great post kranny!

This is one of the most enjoyable KU teams to watch, both on and off the court. These young men are great ambassadors for the University of Kansas. Bill Self (and his staff) have molded these student athletes into more than just basketball players. They play as a team, not individuals. They defend as a team, own up to their mistakes and work harder the next time down the court. Sometimes Coach has to get onto them, but usually they seem to police themselves. That my friends, is the mark of a well coached, well recruited, disciplined team.

Win or lose tonight, Sunday, or next week, this is one of the greatest TEAMS Kansas has ever put on the floor.

It's a Great Year to be a Jayhawk!!!

March 28, 2008 at 1:35 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

jhawkdan42 (anonymous) says...

sooballs- you are the type of person who would bitch about paying taxes after winning the lottery. Always looking at the negative; the glass is always half empty,right? We don't need "fans" like you. I'm as dissapointed as the next guy when we lose, but in a 1 and done tournement, 1 bad game or 1 hot shooting team and its over. Lets get behind the hawks and stop living in the past! RCJH

March 28, 2008 at 2:02 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

actorman (anonymous) says...

"Larry Brown was in his 16th year as a head man in '88."

I agree with Mayer's premise, and this is not at all to disparage Self (as I completely agree with his defenders), but I hate when people misuse statistics to justify their point. Larry Brown was NOT in his 16th year coaching COLLEGE. He was only in his seventh year as a college coach when KU won the title. It's ludicrous to use his years in the ABA and NBA when talking about how long he'd been coaching. (And for that matter, Mayer does the same type of thing with Adolph Rupp, Henry Iba and Phog Allen. He finally acknowledges that ythe tournament didn't actually start until 1939, but that basically negates all of his points about those three.)

"@ Soobawls 'Self has lost to a lower seed every year.'
Self's first year they made it to the Elite 8 as a 4 seed, where they lost in OT to 3 seed Georgia Tech. Just saying..."

BUSTED by the logic police. Does anyone else find it amusing that we haven't heard a peep from Soobawls since his point was shown to be completely invalid.

I am SO SICK of people using the first-round losses to rag on Self. Yes, those losses were horrible and we were all upset by them, but they're history. Get over it, already! Self's first year KU was within an inch of the Final Four and lost a heartbreaker in OT, and last year KU had to play against a great team in an extremely tough environment with their sparkplug at far less than 100%. This is the year. As long as everyone stays (relatively) healthy, there's no reason to believe KU can't go all the way this year. But as people point out, even if KU doesn't win it all it's been a tremendous year. I imagine that Soobawls is the type of person who would rather have someone like a Kelvin Sampson who cheats to win than have someone with character and integrity.

March 28, 2008 at 2:07 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

niemoth (anonymous) says...

It's crazy to be thinking of future years right now, but wanted to see if anyone knew whether Self was planning to play his buddy Gillispie any time soon. I bought UK season tickets 4 years ago in order to go to the Kansas game and have kept them in hopes of KU returning? Didn't know if anyone knew any insider stuff of doing the KU-UK series again? Thanks.

March 28, 2008 at 2:11 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

jhawkdan42 (anonymous) says...

I have a really good feeling about tonights game, It's Sundays game against a probable Wisconsin team that has me worried. Tonights score will be KU84-68! Go Hawks!

March 28, 2008 at 2:12 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

KU (anonymous) says...

So good to see Coach Self get the respect he deserves. Two and three years ago there were a lot of Self haters/Roy lovers on these boards.......it started to fade a little last year. The Bill Self Era is officially in full-blast mode. Now......about that Final Four!

March 28, 2008 at 2:19 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

justanotherfan (anonymous) says...

BCRaven,

I based my "best season" on wins and losses, not on how far they went. Otherwise, Roy's best 5 season would be 1991 (title game), 2003 (title game), 1993 (Final Four), 2002 (Final Four) and one of the Elite Eight teams. To me that isn't a fair comparison when weighing what teams "should" have done.

The point of my comparison was to show that Self's teams compare very favorably to Williams', and in some cases more so since Roy's two "best" teams collapsed, once when he had the BEST TEAM IN THE COUNTRY!

March 28, 2008 at 2:29 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

leikness (anonymous) says...

jhawksdan - I would bitch about taxes especially after winning the lottery.

March 28, 2008 at 2:38 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

soobawls (anonymous) says...

Hey, If GT was a higher seed than us then I stand corrected, but 1 out of 4 is still a poor performance. As far as somone "hating" Bill Self, I've never said that. I have had to personally fire people and I didn't hate them so why does wanting Self fired mean that I hate him? Someone's job performance has nothing to do with their likability unless that is part of the job description. Also, you wont find me pining away for Roy, criticizing Self simply has nothing to do with Roy at all. I think Bill is too nice to his players, he wants to be their pal not their coach and that is why, in my opinion, his teams are often not prepared to compete in the tournament. Don't like it? TS.

March 28, 2008 at 3:37 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

LAJayhawk5 (anonymous) says...

We don't like it, jackass. And we don't like you. Go *&#! yourself, hater.

March 28, 2008 at 3:45 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

KU (anonymous) says...

Self may appear to "like his players" too much and be "too nice to his players" during games, if you're judging by his relatively limited amount of ranting and raving. But I think that is just his "game persona".

Behind closed doors at practices? From what I've heard he can be one bad-a** Okie with some pretty salty language and an attitude.

He realizes that a coach molds his team's toughness during the hard work of practice, not by putting on a public display of displeasure during games.

March 28, 2008 at 4:26 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

txrockchalk (anonymous) says...

I was wondering where phog/APD has been, now I think I know.

March 28, 2008 at 4:28 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

actorman (anonymous) says...

So soobawls, you honestly believe Self should be fired????? Are you certifiably insane????? I mean it's one thing to criticize him and even to say he hasn't done as good a job as he should have, but you think he should be fired????? Are you serious?????

March 28, 2008 at 5:22 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

jhawkdan42 (anonymous) says...

sooballs- Who did you have to fire? The fry cook at McDonalds!

March 28, 2008 at 8:23 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

jhawkdan42 (anonymous) says...

tx- good point, I think your right. On to something that actually matters. Anybody getting to watch the Dav vs Wis game I live in Texas so you know what I'm watching. Is Davidson that good or is Wisc. having an off night?

March 28, 2008 at 8:28 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

vmwskywalk (anonymous) says...

soobawls - What does your managerial job at McDonalds have to do with KU basketball?

As of tonight we have been in the elite eight 3 out of the last 5 years under Self. I don't know of any school that would consider that an underachievment. I'm sorry, but one of the first round losses was with a team Self inherited. One that I feel there were a couple of key players' whose heart should be questioned. (Some will disagree.) The second, a team of freshmen and sophomores who had no experience past round one. High expectations...YES! Experience.....NO! I've watched Jayhawk basketball dating back to the Larry Brown years, and I don't remember a string of years (the two letdowns included) where we were considered national championship contenders. (Meaning we had the talent as well as other factors to win it all.) Read justanother's post above. We fell short in 95' and 96'. After that we had the years of Robertson, and Gregory and one other person who I won't name. There wasn't much talent on those teams until Collison, Gooden, and Heinrich came along. Those were a couple hard years for a KU fan. Then came the TWO years that ended any questions for RW. 01-02' and 02-03'. We went to the Final Four and the Championship game. The point I'm trying to make is, it's not easy for any team to have CONSTANT success in the NCAA. We expect it, and unfortunately, that's just not going to happen. Think about this, when you judge our season against everyone else in college basketball, you are going to be disappointed. We are the Mecca of College Basketball, IMHO! Why the hell can't you sit back and enjoy the game for what it is and appreciate what we have? I wouldn't trade anyone on this team ESPECIALLY our coach for anyone...PERIOD!

So, as I finish my crown and coke, I promise not to ever ramble on at this length again. I'll leave that to Jaybate and others.

March 29, 2008 at 12:15 a.m. ( | suggest removal )

kujayhawk (anonymous) says...

At a minimum, Self has been to 3 elite 8's in 5 years...and that is not underachieving. We didn't underachieve his first year and we didn't underachieve last year...we had to play a #2 seed that in it's back yard. And if anything, we overachieved in his third year by winning the Big XII with a bunch of freshman.

Self is a great coach. He'll get his in time..maybe in weeks.

Rock Chalk!

March 29, 2008 at 1:19 a.m. ( | suggest removal )