Saturday, October 20, 2012


Opinion: It’s time for Charlie Weis to move on from Dayne Crist

Kansas head coach Charlie Weis gives lip service to a game official as he disputes a call during the second quarter on Saturday, Oct. 20, 2012 at Memorial Stadium in Norman, Okla.

Kansas head coach Charlie Weis gives lip service to a game official as he disputes a call during the second quarter on Saturday, Oct. 20, 2012 at Memorial Stadium in Norman, Okla.


Podcast episode

Press Conferences & Post-Game Interviews

KU coach Charlie Weis talks following 52-7 loss to Oklahoma

Kansas football coach Charlie Weis talks following KU's 52-7 loss to Oklahoma on Oct. 20, 2012.

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Box score

KU vs. Oklahoma

— It takes quite a while for a man who weighs 309 pounds to pick up a football and run 45 yards with it, which only served to prolong the pain of everyone on the opposite sideline watching the play that ended an unforgettable mini-series featuring Charlie Weis and Dayne Crist.

The two Notre Dame castoffs, brought to Lawrence to restore a football winner built by Mark Mangino and Todd Reesing and dismantled by Turner Gill, reached a low point Saturday when Oklahoma defensive tackle Casey Walker chugged almost half a football field with the latest Crist turnover, this one a fumble.

The circus music started playing when KU recovered a fumbled punt at the OU 11 late in the first quarter.

First mistake: Weis sent Crist into the game instead of Michael Cummings, who had been performing better. Ah, but it appeared Weis knew what he was doing when he called a masterful play on which Tre’ Parmalee at various stages of the play went into motion, swung around Crist for a fake reverse handoff and ran out into the left flat, where he was all alone, a touchdown waiting to happen. Crist had practiced that play. Cummings had not.

Edward Scissorhands could have led a pass to Parmalee that would have given him a walk-in touchdown. Not Crist. He threw it so far behind the receiver that Parmalee fell down catching it. No gain. Six points, maybe even seven, lost. Cummings nearly threw an interception on second down, and Weis went back to Crist for third down. Sack-fumble, Walker was off to the races, and Kansas couldn’t compete for the rest of the half.

The total breakdown that resulted in Oklahoma cruising to a 52-7 victory extended well beyond any one quarterback or for that matter unit — special teams were worse than the offense — but that doesn’t change the reality it’s time for Weis to move on from believing he can turn Crist the quarterback who looked so sharp for him in practice at Notre Dame and Kansas into the same guy in games. It’s not going to happen. Not for this team that has less talent than the opponent every week.

Give Crist the protection Landry Jones had and the receiving talent from which he chooses and it might be a different story, but that’s fantasy football talk.

Bump Crist to third on the depth chart, encourage him to teach the offense to others and give third-string quarterback Turner Baty a look if Cummings doesn’t show ample improvement.

Baty led New Canaan High (Conn.) to a state title as a senior and San Francisco City College to a national junior-college title as a freshman. Whenever he is asked about Baty, Weis says he doesn’t understand his offense well enough, if he says anything.

At one point, Baty was warming up on the sideline, but a closer look revealed he merely was playing catch with Crist, getting him ready to go back into the game. Asked after the game if he gave any thought to putting Baty in, Weis said, “No. No thought.”

Unlike Cummings, Baty didn’t get a head start on learning the offense by participating in spring football, but he’s had plenty of time to study it since.

Nobody knows Charlie Weis’ offense better than Charlie Weis, but that doesn’t mean if he had any eligibility left, that knowledge would make him the best choice to try to execute Charlie Weis’ offense. Crist is said to have a deep understanding of the offense, but that didn’t translate to performance.

Baty’s winning history ought to count for something. Weis must have liked something about him or he wouldn’t have offered him a scholarship, so if Cummings proves he’s not ready, why not see if Baty could give this team the best chance at avoiding a 1-11 record?

When a team allows a touchdown on a kickoff and a punt in the same game, misses a 30-yard field goal, repeatedly gets torched deep with passes to multiple receivers and trails 38-0 at the half, a coach has plenty of fix-it projects weighing on his mind.

“I’m not worried about the quarterback,” Weis said. “I mean, I’ve got a whole bunch of issues. Why don’t we talk about special teams? Why don’t we start there? It seems like every time they had a return, it was for a touchdown.”

True, but it always starts at quarterback, and if there is one position Weis knows best, that’s it. The position is broken, and Charlie needs to get to work fixing it with someone other than Crist. Jake Heaps will need an experienced backup next season.


ahpersecoachingexperience 9 years, 7 months ago

Anyone have a time machine? I need to go back and hire Tuberville.

741hawk 9 years, 7 months ago

Lew wouldn't even interview him.
Glad I went to the Orange Bowl because that is the ONLY thing good he did for KU.

KGphoto 9 years, 7 months ago

He did give Self an extension before Bill made a Final Four...

Brandon Pope 9 years, 7 months ago

Any AD with half a brain (which Lew just barely qualifies) would have hired and retained Bill Self in that situation. Lew is the worst thing to happen to KU in a long time.

KGphoto 9 years, 7 months ago

Google Lew Perkins. He has a looong list of worthy accomplishments. Just because you don't like Gill, and he borrowed a stupid exercise machine doesn't make him the worst thing to happen to KU in a long time.

Eliott Reeder 9 years, 7 months ago

Lew brought HUDY to KU B-Ball. Nuff said.

JakeBarnes 9 years, 7 months ago

I agree with you, but I really don't think there was a chance of hiring Tuberville. Texas Tech had much better prospects than KU was left with despite what the AD did or didn't do.

The article is absolutely on track. I quit watching the game after the Crist fumble following KU having the ball at the Oklahoma 11. I new the deluge was coming. Why a coach would go back to Crist beat the livin hell out of me. I really worry about Weiss judgment of players.

Maracas 9 years, 7 months ago

Tuberville is way too oily and smarmy. It's only a matter of time . . .

Mangino_Maniac 9 years, 7 months ago

Should've... Could've... never helpful to think about such things, but...

Three years ago we should've hired Tuberville. One year ago we should've hired Paul Chryst.

Spencer Goff 9 years, 7 months ago

Right now, both football teams I call "mine" are being destroyed by decision makers that are continually employed because they were involved with Tom Brady, as though they somehow created Brady and not the other way around. I think I vicariously hate Brady without any real reason to.

KGphoto 9 years, 7 months ago

I do agree that it was Brady who made Belichick, and that Belichick will probably retire, if he's smart, after Brady does. Don't know about Weis yet.

Cartemus 9 years, 7 months ago

I'm pretty sure he's talking about Pioli and Weis.

KGphoto 9 years, 7 months ago

Fine, but Weis also made Cassel into a pro-bowler. That separates him from Pioli.

VaJay 9 years, 7 months ago

Sorry Kroh, I have the perfect pair of favorite lousy football teams - Jayhawks & the Cleveland Browns. I haven't been able to take the Browns seriously since the 80's.

Jonathan Allison 9 years, 7 months ago

no need to regurgitate that Jason Whitlock garbage here. Sorry.

Martin Rosenblum 9 years, 7 months ago

Opinion: It's time for Charlie Weis to move on............

Is that what you were really thinking Tom?

omarob 9 years, 7 months ago

It IS time for Weis to move on. I do not understand how he was hired in the first place. I am from the south and there is very little respect for his coaching abilities here. I think Mangino should be hired to come back. He ran a good team, he paid attention to academics. Whatever the problem the athletic director had should have been brought to a better conclusion.

JakeBarnes 9 years, 7 months ago

Mangino wont come back. KU seems to have a good coaching staff that makes terrible player decisions. Hell, yes I wish Mangino were the coach. Who doesn't??

Lonnie Ross Dillon 9 years, 7 months ago

Did you forget that Mangino's last team lost its last 7 games? They gave up, quit. So did the coach. Mangino had a good couple of years recruiting that carried him through...after that nothing. 2007 was a great year but we didn't beat anyone of significance until the Orange Bowl.

SaltLakeHawk 9 years, 7 months ago

You've got to be kidding me. Are you really suggesting we fire a coach after 7 games?

Before even hinting at finding a new coach, KU fans NEED to give Weis 2 years, MINIMUM to fix the steaming pile of sh*t that he inherited. Until then, can we please knock off the "fire Weis" discussion? It's absurd. I've never been a fan of Weis, but to suggest firing ANY coach after half a season is ridiculous, and it's a recipe for sustained failure for a football program.

Micky Baker 9 years, 7 months ago

It is clear now though, Cummings isn't better than Crist. Can Cummings be? Not if he isn't really as quick as his fans seem to think he is.

Jeremy Hays 9 years, 7 months ago


I agree. I don't know about Turner but I do know and what I've said for awhile is I will let a guy with the pedigree like Charlie's tell me what he thinks and go with him. What I saw from Cummings, was the same thing I saw from Crist, except Cumming ran a few QB Dart plays (that weren't very successful). I think Parmalee and McCay and Turzilli will make whomever a very successful QB next year. If they can make a great OL, they will be experienced in the backfield (Sims - SR, Pierson and Cox - JR), have some weapons on the outside and be successful (HOPEFULLY)

As far as all of you guys calling for Charlie's Head, Your beloved Magino (I was a big fan of the big man as well) but he was 2-10, 6-5 and then 4-7 and last year (year 2) under some of your thoughts of tubby he was 5-7 and 2-7 in conference (with a comeback win against TG) I think many of you are flying off the deep end if you say anything other than let's see what happens.

Mat Davis 9 years, 7 months ago

It's tough for me to watch Crist struggle. He seems like a great guy, and the type that you root for to do well, because of how he carries himself. I really wish it had turned out better for him at KU. He's taken a large amount of criticism, some of it deserved, but his supporting cast has left a lot to be desired as well. I also believe that on the offensive side of the ball we have gotten out coached. There is nothing exciting or innovative about our offense. When Weis bragged at ND about having a decided schematic advantage because he was the coach, I or anyone else who watches college football has yet to see if from him.

Dirk Medema 9 years, 7 months ago

Definitely agree with the sentiment about Crist.

Not so much about CW.

Doug Cramer 9 years, 7 months ago

You hit the nail on the head Tom...which was something many of us knew after the Northern Illinois loss.

I'm tired of hearing people say that this team has improved under this coaching staff. That's just simply not true.

Look...I'm not a Gill supporter...but this team is no better than what Gill and Co put out there.

As far as special teams are concerned...what do you expect when we hire Clint Bowen as the coordinator ? He's got a long history of not developing his units...which we saw torturously under Mangino's administration.

jhox 9 years, 7 months ago

The defense is better. Despite giving up 50+ a couple of times this year, there is no question in my mind they're much better. If our offense could get going the defense wouldn't be half bad. They did quit against K State, I'll admit that, but otherwise they've played reasonably well. Two TDs yesterday were given up by special teams. Then the fumble recovery gave OU great field position. Take away those points and the defense's effort wasn't half bad. That OU offense is made up of a bunch of future pros. They hung 60+ on what was supposed to be a good Texas defense last week.

The QB position is killing us, as is our special teams (especially our kickers.) But I have very little doubt this is a better team than last year.

Steve Corder 9 years, 7 months ago

You are spot-on!

Knee jerk responses that the "sky is falling, the sky is falling" are emotionally driven.

Doug Cramer 9 years, 7 months ago

Knee jerk response. Dude go back and look at my posts...all the way back before the season started.

Brandon Pope 9 years, 7 months ago

I also agree. This teams problem is the offense. It is really that simple. Look at what KSU did to WVU last night and what OU did to Texas last week. These teams aren't being help to fewer point by other teams in the league. Sometimes a Big 12 offense is just cranking and the defense can only do so much. KU's has been more than serviceable this year.

You want to stop OU from dropping 50? Don't give them the freaking ball. That is something our offense has not been able to manage this year. The QB play has been so bad it is laughable. We actually have a run game that I would take over just about anyone in our league, but once a team figfures out we cant sustain a drive through the air, they adjust, and then you get the type of second half performances we have seen all year. It all falls apart when Crist or Cummings is required to really do the job they were recruited for which is to throw the ball downfield and move the chains.

Until we can do that reliably, Defenses will contain our run game and get the ball back. And our defense will do what they can, but you can't be expected to top OU or WVU or KSU that many times. We have to score points and we can't.

Bob Culwell 9 years, 7 months ago

I'm sorry, but it simply is true that the team has improved under this coaching staff.

The issue, as Mr. Keegan acknowledges, is that the guys in Kansas uniforms are not as good as the guys in the other uniforms.

I have read quite a few posters alleging that Kansas' talent is really no different than any team that we're playing. That's not so. Kansas is wildly outclassed from a talent perspective every time they take the field. Quite frankly, I admire the guys who are going out there every week and giving it their best knowing that the only way they have a chance to win is if the other team completely lays an egg.

Anybody looking at this team with an honest eye, though, would have to concede that they're doing better than they did a year ago. I hope they will look better a year from now than they do this year.

When your seniors are on their third coaching staff, you've had essentially four lost recruiting years. Guys were recruited by other coaches to do other things than they're being asked to do by this staff. People who were being recruited by former coaches who may have helped frequently decide not to come when there's a change. The first recruiting class for a staff is one that is thrown together at the last moment.

It will take years--YEARS--to get this fixed. The one sure fire way to turn that timeline into decades would be to start firing coaches again.

Doug Cramer 9 years, 7 months ago

91hawk - I 100% agree that our team just doesn't have the talent that most Big 12 teams have.

What I don't agree with is that they have improved under a different coaching staff. Sorry...don't see it.

I've maticulously watched this team every single week. The lack of pressure on the D-line is no different. The tackling in the back field is no different. They give up in the 2nd half...just like Gill's defenses did.

The ONLY bright spot on this the O-lines ability to run block...and our RBs skilled enough to generate yards behind the line. Thats its.

Brandon Pope 9 years, 7 months ago

You need to watch a little more meticulously.

Pretty much everything you said is incorrect in one way or another. But I will agree with the the play of our backs. They have looked better. The blocking may or may not be improved.

Everything else is a great step ahead of where it was last year. The pass rush has been better, look at the sack total. The secondary has been better, look at the interceptions. The linebackers have been just slightly better, look at yard per play and total offense. Look at the takeaways. Look at the red zone score percentage. Look at the average margin of defeat. Are you looking yet?

Doug Cramer 9 years, 7 months ago

OK lets see...we have 7 sacks...thats next to dead last in FBS rankings. Guess where we ranked with sacks last to last.

Record - At least Gill won two games last year. This year we're winning 1.

Special Teams - WAY WORSE this year. We sucked last year...but it doesn't get any worse this year.

Don't even get me started on the offense. Take a look at the points scored...Gill's offense CRUSHES Weis's.

I'm around delusional Mizzou fans all the freakin time. Don't become like them.

Bob Culwell 9 years, 7 months ago

Good evening, Table Hawk.

If it is agreed that the Jayhawks lack the talent level that their opponents posess, I don't really see how anybody can get upset about stats--like only having 7 sacks. Of course we only have seven sacks, our guys pressuring the QB aren't as good as the guys blocking them.

They aren't going to win very many battles.

That's the part I don't get about the angry fans in the fanbase. I wouldn't get pissed off at the kid who lives next door to me if he played one-on-one with Lebron James and only scored one time. I'd have no honest intellectual choice but to applaud the effort. Whether we like it or not, that's the basic level of matchup that's going on around here.

I see improvement in the areas of forcing turnovers. I see the guys on defense playing harder than they did a year ago. On offense, I see guys trying, but without almost no talent on the offensive side of the ball, I don't expect that they'll score many points at all.

The special teams are pathetic. Undoubtedly. That's because we have very little D1 talent on the roster. The coaches can't make bad football players into great ones in one off season. They can demand that every player do his best. From where I sit, that's what they've done, and that's what they've been given.

This summer, I was in a discussion with some Kansas fans about expectations for the year, I told them that I thought if this team was extremely lucky, they could win two games.

No more than that.

They're exactly where I thought they'd be. My hope is that Charlie Weiss and the other coaches can change it. But there is no way--none whatsoever--that they could do it in one season. The university had no real choice but to replace the last coaching staff. I wish it hadn't been so, but they had to do it. When they did it, I figured that it will take Coach Weiss at least five years to get this going. At least. Let me save everybody some heartache around here, the Jayhawks won't be going bowling next season, either. They have a chance of being a four-win team if they continue to improve.

I think fans have a tendency to wildly overestimate the talent level on their team and underestimating how good the other teams are. My wiring tends to be the reverse of that, so I'm rarely disappointed in how my teams do.

Doug Cramer 9 years, 7 months ago

91hawk - Agree with everything you said except for the improvement.

As far as predictions were concerned...I was ripped on these chat boards for suggesting we may only win 3 games this year. Turns out...even that was optimistic.

My other point is this...we're not better than last year...or the year before. We look worse. Thats why I posted those stats...because we have delusional fans that think we're getting better.

Final point...our recruiting class for 2013 is not looking good. I don't expect Weis to stick around for five years losing like this. If he can get talented recruits in to over compensate for the lack of the existing talent....then how the hell are we gonna compete ?

Doug Cramer 9 years, 7 months ago

OK lets see...we have 7 sacks...thats next to dead last in FBS rankings. Guess where we ranked with sacks last to last.

Record - At least Gill won two games last year. This year we're winning 1.

Special Teams - WAY WORSE this year. We sucked last year...but it doesn't get any worse this year.

Don't even get me started on the offense. Take a look at the points scored...Gill's offense CRUSHES Weis's.

I'm around delusional Mizzou fans all the freakin time. Don't become like them.

Micky Baker 9 years, 7 months ago

No, not really. Gill's offense doesn't crush Weis's offense.

Micky Baker 9 years, 7 months ago

You really believe this team is now better than under Gill? LOL. STUPIDITY among the fans reigns. If it continues like this among the fans, the fans don't deserve a winning team. Go to the games, STAY UNTIL THE END, and learn some more about football!

BayPark 9 years, 7 months ago

Spot on. Stoops called off the dogs. The score could have been worse. Our defense is every bit as bad as last year.

jayhawkinoregon 9 years, 7 months ago

I'm as frustrated as anyone about the lack of progress in rebuilding our football program. I do agree with Tom that Charlie has given Crist enough time to show whether he can produce for this team. It really is time to move on to the second and third string guys and see what they can do. With all the high expectations that Charlie was going to be a miracle worker and bring an immediate turn around in the W-L record, the reality has for most fans been a real let down. My counsel to those fans is to give Charlie a couple more years and don't panic. He needs to bring in better talent to turn the program around.

I moved from my native Kansas to Oregon in 1970. The football programs at Oregon and Oregon State at the time were not good. I remember attending the Kansas v. Oregon State game in Corvallis when Nolan Cromwell was the KU quarterback. KU easliy defeated the Beavers. Today the Beavers and Ducks are both top 10 teams. I'm not saying that it will take decades for KU to turn our program around. Oregon State had sub par seasons in 2010 and 2011, but Mike Riley has brought them back quickly. It can be done. I think we need to believe that Charlie can do it too.

When Jack Mitchell was coach at KU he produced some good teams and interesting play. Anyone else remember quick kicks on third down to gain what Mitchell viewed as all important field position? Remember turning half back John Hadl into quarterback? Remember Curtis McClinton, Bert Coan, etc.? Some real good football. Then times change and the student chant becomes: "Given 'em hell Jack Mitchell. Give 'em hell! Oh hell, give 'em Jack Mitchell." I sure hope we can give Charlie more support for a long enough time to show what he can really do. But, he needs to show us that he can make the hard decisions and move on from a favorite player when things just aren't working.

JakeBarnes 9 years, 7 months ago

I think Doyle Schick ought to be mentioned as well as some of the lineman in the sixties and seventies.

BringBackMark 9 years, 7 months ago

I'm sick and tired of hearing that nobody knows the offense. What is it a g&^(n secret? Dumb it down if these kids can't figure it out. Snyder runs a different offense every time he has a new quarterback. He adjusts to the kids talent level and makes them all look like All Americans. The difference is they EXECUTE! If you put Calvin Klein in this offense he would look like a Bozo too.!

I'm pretty much fed up with the athletic department's attention to football. I about died when I even heard they were talking to Weis. Then I thought maybe they were just wanting his input as to hidden coaching talent. Nope, they hired him. Near as I can calculate, over the past three years we're paying about $2 million per win just in the head coach's salary and buyout. At this rate, let's advertise for a coach and pay him $1 million per win, period. There'd probably be some very talented coaches look at that deal and it would cut our cost in half!

Brandon Pope 9 years, 7 months ago

Zenger on the hot seat? Thats pretty funny.

The guy has single-handedly started turning the athletics department around in terms of the non-rev sports, he has balanced the budget, he has ensure at least another decade of basketball dominance and he helped bring in the best coaching staff we have ever had a KU. A staff that has had barely half of ONE season and a severely truncated recruiting effort to make a difference.

Dr. Zenger is by no means on any hot seat.

okiedave 9 years, 7 months ago

My opinion: Weis got the K.U. job based on assertions, in part, he would bring with him a star seasoned quarterback from Notre Dame who was going to give KU a banner year. Weis needs Crist to perform to bolster his credibility with the AD that hired him. Crist came to KU with promises from Weis that he was going to give Crist as shot at the NFL. Unless Weis can admit to himself, Crist and everybody else it is not working, and Crist is going to have to use his college degree to earn a living, and move on to develop his future quarterbacks it is likely going to be another long year for Weis next year. I like Crist, he is a solid kid and will do well in life I wish he would succeed at KU, but I am afraid the pressure to perform for Weis may have cost him his ability to perform well (maybe some day there will be a little blue pill for that). I do not see any quit in the Jayhawks, I like that. Weis can turn this team around and KU needs to give him that opportunity. KU CAN BEAT TEXAS. And that's all I got to say about that.

Ken Schmidt 9 years, 7 months ago

That, sir, is a thoughtful and divining analysis; quite possibly, your post puts to words all that remains unsaid. We must ask ourselves why Crist continues to get a shot. Weis has said he would go with the players which perform the best. Weis made a promise to get this kid playing on Sunday long before KU and to bring him here, he restated that promise. Unfortunately, it didn't work out and Crist has not conformed to the skill levels and/or game here at KU.
This team is by far better more confusion on the lines; no more delay of game penalties; no more players out of position. We see now, players in the right places but unable to make the plays they are assigned. From Crist to every player on offense or defense, they give everything they have and are to be commended. It will continue to take time to get the players we need. That is all.
It is hard to ask the person at an oasis to wait for the pool to fill with water when they were never there to see it full. Everyone has said this year would be a year of rebuilding. What I see are players in the right places and performing better than last year which is more than I can say over the last three.

AirCapJay 9 years, 7 months ago

I agree. I think Weis got the job because no one else wanted it. Zenger had no one else to hire.

Weis is showing that he does not have a gauge for talent. I doubt he can recruit well enough to get Kansas out of the basement 5 years from now.

Brandon Pope 9 years, 7 months ago

Doubtful. Even if Zenger couldn't get one of the top 5 available coaches here, that doesn't mean NOBODY wanted it. There are a lot of coaches out there that would have taken the KU job. I am surprised Weis wanted it to be perfectly honest.

I think Crist is a bad example of Weis' talent radar. The kid is talented. he has all of the tools to be a great college quarterback. The size, the arm, and IQ, the knowledge of the playbook. The kid is just not a gamer. That's unfortunate for him, and for us, because he really could have been great. Better than Cummings at least.

Why don't we wait to judge Weis' ability to find and recruit talent until he and his staff actually have a full recruiting year to get some guys. See how they come in and change the team. See how they compete. And maybe wait and see about Heaps. I doubt we strike out on two former 5-star QBs in back to back seasons.

Better yet, why don't we wait and see the talent level after 2, 3 or 4 recruiting years. When this staff can get some guys in here that they get 2-3 years to work on and recruit. You know, like every other program in america does. Thats what happens when you buckle up and weather the storm for a few years instead of turning on your coaches and running them out of town every other year.

Brandon Pope 9 years, 7 months ago

  • Disclaimer: Turner Gill is the worst thing to ever happen to KU athletics and HAD to be fired. Just covering my bases here.

Bob Schutz 9 years, 7 months ago

Agree. Give coach W a few years. Crist is a bust. Not everything you try works out. Need to fix the special team ASAP. A better offensive effort would help the defense.

Micky Baker 9 years, 7 months ago

Nobody thought Crist was going to give KU a banner year. It doesn't ever work for people to be this blatantly dishonest. That is why the media itself has lost its credibility. You only hear things you want to hear. That is an ethical issue.

ChiJayhawk 9 years, 7 months ago

You know Coach M is ready to get back into coaching. Now on to other things.

Charlie has to know he is real close to losing the fans if he puts Crist out there again. I was rooting for the guy to help bridge the gap and it really wouldn't have taken much to do that. If he was just completing the little passes this team would have looked so much better than it has and we might have won a few more games. In addition it would have help the defense and special teams play has they wouldn't have always played from a hole.

I still have faith Coach CW can do this but he needs to show that he isn't going to be one of those coaches that is going to keep forcing the fans to watch the same mistakes over and over again hoping prove us wrong. Coach I'm not ready to throw the towel in on you yet but you got to show me something show me your flexibility to admit a mistake and move on for the good of the team.

Ken Schmidt 9 years, 7 months ago

Agree. With a running game that can run on anyone...we are able to do it against KSU and OU with only small difficulties, the play-action opens up. That said, a focus on short, high percentage passes might be warranted. I am not an offensive coordinator, nor am I qualified to assess HCCW's decisions. I merely wonder if a focus on building Cumming's ability to checkdown those short passes and complete them successfully would be beneficial; keep the ball moving.
The NYG had a small RB by the name of Joe Morris in the mid-late 80's that helped them win a SB. He was 5'7" and what they called a scatback...small in stature and would squeeze into the smallest of spaces. Phill Simms was quite adept in using him as a pressure valve during hard rushes. At 5'7", Morris wasn't gonna pick up a blitz. He could get out into the flats quickly and had great hand for picking up a dump pass--much like Darrin Sproles. I would love to see HCCW return to those Parcels days and utilize a similar formation.

ArgyleJayhawks 9 years, 7 months ago

Oh hey, another LJW column, another Turner Gill shot. This is getting so old.

phoggydrive 9 years, 7 months ago

You are kidding yourself if you don't think Turner Gill is a major part of the implosion of the football program. It started with Mangino pulling in horrible recruiting class after the Orange Bowl. Then extended with Gill who changed the culture away from the strict Mangino tenure to a relaxed one in which there was no accountability. It's impossible to make any determination on the Weis tenure yet. He's had a whole 7 games. Two of which got out of hand. One easily identified change has been the shift in culture back to strict one with accountability. You can see the response in the players as they are trying harder than in the past two years. Time will tell how things go in the future, but it's plain to see that we are still feeling the effects of Gill and will continue to for a while.

Robert Brock 9 years, 7 months ago

Plus, the Jayhawks have few Big XII-level players at any position. No team speed. It's obvious. Gotta get some Jimmys & Joes...somehow.

phoggydrive 9 years, 7 months ago

The '09 class that you reference was an absolute bust! Two productive starters in Operum & McDougald.

ArgyleJayhawks 9 years, 7 months ago

All of those things may be true, but why the need to write something about Gill in EVERY column or story. My point is that they have already established their thoughts on Turner and his staff and players, no need to keep beating people over the head with it.

justinryman 9 years, 7 months ago

Does ole Charlie get two years to prove himself at KU or or will he get longer? Will he even want to stay?

This team hasn't won a conference game going on 4 years now. Mangino lost his team and they tanked. Gill just didn't get it done. Was his coaching or were the players not playing for him too?

CW hasn't proven a thing as a college coach even at ND. Sure he can recruit, but Gill is the one that brought in the stable of RBs, non of these QBs seem to beable to get it done.

That's somewhat on the Oline. There is talent to catch the ball. Drew Brees has proven you don't need top flight WRs to be a great QB, you just need guys who can run the right route andcatch it. The QB just has to put it there where they can catch it without looking like an acrobat.

I have seen more improvement in the D this year than the past 6 or 7. They attack and cause turnovers.

The offense is just well I can't put it into words that won't get this whole post deleted.

Kevin Crook 9 years, 7 months ago

There are lots of BCS schools with really bad football teams, but we are the worst. Three coaches in four years is a big part of it. Mangino had NOTHING coming back, and Gill set us back another few yaeas. Face it, we may never have a good team again. The rest of the season is a death march. We also have the worst qb play in the country.

phoggydrive 9 years, 7 months ago

Famous last words spoken in '89 & '01. 6 years later for both of those time frames we have two top ten finishes and more than a handful of winning seasons. It can be done.

jayhawkinATL 9 years, 7 months ago're just now coming to this conclusion??? Comical!!!

jayhawkinATL 9 years, 7 months ago

It didn't take Brian Kelly this long to send Crist packing!!!

Darrell Alexander 9 years, 7 months ago

At this point no way we should play Baty. Let him learn the offense for another year and compete for the job next year. No reason to waste him on this year. He'll have 3 years left for what is hopefully our huge rebuilding years. I hope CW is saving him for the future, if he plays him late this year then I will know that Charlie has no chance of succeeding here.

Cartemus 9 years, 7 months ago

Thank you, trajanj. There is no sense in wasting a year of Baty's eligibility at this point. This season is lost. Sometimes it's better to let a trash fire burn.

Darrell Alexander 9 years, 7 months ago

We've all heard that the best qb has to sit out this year. Just maybe the second best is learning the offense and saving a year. When they prepared for K-State they made Baty the the scout team qb because of his mobility. To me that was a really good sign. This team needs tons of help but the most important position is the qb and that is a position where we have to rank pretty close to last in the country. Hopefully we have two qb's next year that are a lot better than what we have seen so far.

Doug Cramer 9 years, 7 months ago

KU nation is finally coming to their senses about Weis's ability to turn this program around.

Take a look at his 2013 recruiting class.

I could be wrong...but this is what I think will happen.

He'll have another disappointing season next year. He'll realize that he's not getting the recruits needed to compete in the Big 12...and he'll take the easy route out...and leave the program for the NFL. The writing is on the wall.

Brandon Pope 9 years, 7 months ago

Are you looking at the freshman recruits? I expect you are. Why don't you go an look at KSU's recruiting class ranking over the last few years. We almost always outrank them, yet they have trounced us three years running. Why? They don't waste their time trying to wow with talented rookie classes. They get the guys they need from wherever they can.

The players this staff have to go and get are Ju-Co guys and other transfers. have to get guys with experience who can play now, and whatever talented freshman we can convince to spend their four years here.

You don't pull in monster freshman recruiting classes without a history of winning which we don't have. 17 and 18 year old kids dont buy into "being part of the re-building process" thing most of the time, but 20 and 21 year old guys who want to play for a BCS school will. And guess what? None of those guys factor into the ranking on rivals.

Brandon Pope 9 years, 7 months ago

Even this year so far our freshman recruiting class is better than KSU's. Makes little difference.

Doug Cramer 9 years, 7 months ago

1_Jaydoc_1 - there is no doubt K-States recruiting classes havn't been any better than ours. Snider is able to do things that no other coach can. Sorry to say dude...but Weis will not be able to pull the type of magic with low end recruits that Snider does. Not happening. Weis will have to have 4 and 5 star athletes to be able to compete...and so far this 2013 recruiting class is not shaping up to well.

Brandon Pope 9 years, 7 months ago

I guess time will tell on that one. I don't think Weis is the kind of coach Snyder is, but I also don't think he has to be to win with players he can get. Add to that the fact that Kansas has and should continue to out recruit KSU for talented freshman (because who really wants to go a live in Manhattan, KS for 4 years), and we may see a .500 team in only 2-3 more full recruiting seasons.

Robert Brown 9 years, 7 months ago

It is certainly arguable whether the team is better. I'm not sure that the OU game should be used as a barometer. The KSU score is comparable to KSU v WV last night so maybe some of this can be blamed on schedule. I'm very disappointed in the progress of the offense given Weis's background. It was risky selecting Weis. Zenger and Weis are stuck with each other which is OK. A coach should be given 3-4 years to build a program.

Arthur Hess 9 years, 7 months ago

We should have moved on from Crist a long time ago. Zenger is not on the hot seat, that is plain silly. I would not burn Baty's red shirt on this season. Go with Cummings and Mathews the rest of the year.

hawkmaster 9 years, 7 months ago

If this damn pro style offense is so difficult to learn, that it takes a 5th senior (who apparently knows it, but still can't execute it) to run it, then get rid of the pro-style offense and run something that Cummings or Baty can run. And besides, what is so difficult about handling the ball to Sims every time with this offense??

Don't you try and fit the system to the personnel, and not vice versa?

CW wants sooooo bad for Crist to emerge so he can tell fans "I told you so", CW is stubborn and I think part of his sticking with Crist is because he is trying to send a message to the fan base that they won't dictate the personnel he uses or his coaching.

This is just bad football. I believe KU has improved, but we just don't have the horses.

And I'm still not convinced that KU can be successful with CW as both head coach and offensive coordinator. I see other teams huddle their offenses up when the defense is on the field, and KU does not do this. It can't, CW has to patrol the sidelines as head coach. Ron Powlus can talk to the QBs as the QB coach, but there is no assistant off. coordinator.

This is just a very dysfunctional team, and whereas the TG experiment was horrible, the Charlie Weis experiment also has its own flaws.

Robert Brown 9 years, 7 months ago

The rest of the year will be interesting. There are a lot of bad defenses in the Big 12 and we haven't played most of these teams yet with the exception of OSU. If we are not able to put up some strong offensive stats against Baylor, WV, UT, etc then Weis should be roundly criticized.

lama 9 years, 7 months ago

Keegs' coach-in-waiting Clint Bowen not exactly getting it done on special teams. Sort of like when he was defensive coordinator.

Stephen Johnson 9 years, 7 months ago

I think Mangino did a good job, but a lot of people have forgot that he stuck with Meier at QB way longer than he should have and finally grudgingly gave Reesing the reins in the Colorado game. Sound familiar????

MoralVictory 9 years, 7 months ago

On the bright side.....we've already faced the cream of the crop, both of them on their home turf. If you take a bad football team to away games at two top-10 programs, you're going to get whacked.

Look what the Purple Plague did to West Virginia - at West Virginia. Look at what OU did to Texas in a semi-neutral site.

As we've seen against TCU, OSU and UNI, when we play teams below the elite level, then we can compete. We've been through the worst...though the schedule is by no means easy, it's relatively easier moving forward.

I anticipate that this team will bounce back and play improved football the rest of the way.

Fred Whitehead Jr. 9 years, 7 months ago

It is really very simple. The problem is not with the coach or the quarterback, both which are cast-offs from a number of other programs.

The problem is systemic at KU. The best coach you have had in recent times was Mark Mangino. He was the offense coach at Oklahoma when they won the national championship back in 2000.

But at KU, he ran into the pantywaist culture that is ingrained in the football program. The whiners, milksops, crybabies and others who thought that Mangino was "too rough" on the team are the real problem in getting a football program off the ground.

Hey folks, football is a rough, tough game. The players need to also be up to the training of the teams they face. Your pissing and moaning about mean old Mangino has permeated the program and the clueless university officials hire wannabes like Weis and his former player from "Father Jesus U".

Nothing will change in the KU football program until university officials cease listening to the whiny weak sisters who do not like their little boys beingtreated like men and marines.

Doug Cramer 9 years, 7 months ago


Don't forget about what Perkins did !!!

Brandon Pope 9 years, 7 months ago

I agree to an extent. That was the problem when Mangino was on the way out but I think all of the players Gill brought in who couldn't handle REAL football have gone. The guys we have here and now have worked harder than expected all year long. They never give up and they come out each week thinking they can win and incredibly disappointed when they lose.

Weis and Campo and the rest of this staff don't take any crap from anybody, so those kinds of whiners wont last long if any remain. They also wont recruit guys that cant work, so it shouldn't be a problem going forward.

I think people have forgotten already what two full seasons of poor recruiting, no discipline, inferior training and a vacation from football intelligence can do to a program. Turner Gill had KU Football in a tailspin and even if you change captains, you cant slow that thing down all at once. Hopefully, the OU game was the low point.

Chris2028 9 years, 7 months ago

First off, Blake Jablonski is 3rd string QB, not Baty. Blake Jablonski was a stud in high school and why they are not giving him a chance is beyond me. Secondly, Blake Jablonski beat out Cummings last year in the depth chart. Cummings was 4th string after Jablonski beat him out with Jabo being 3rd string. With the change in coaches, Cummings jumps ahead of Jabo for no other apparent reason than he is a scholarship player while Jabo is not. Jabo's arm is damn accurate, give the guy a chance to turn this team around. KU is hurt rather than helped by ever playing Crist again.

Phil Leister 9 years, 7 months ago

Hey look everyone, Blake Jablonski posts on KUSports.

JakeBarnes 9 years, 7 months ago

Yeoman 2. Except for your nasty tone you make an excellent point about the pantywaist attitude of those running KU athletics at the time Mangino was fired. BUT we need to forget Mangino. He isn't coming back. The money people need to put the heat on the KU administration to get real in football. Also, why pick on Notre Dame, it isn't attacking KU?

Doug Cramer 9 years, 7 months ago

Hey Barnes - it's not a nasty tone. It's reality.

Maracas 9 years, 7 months ago

I'm pretty much done until Crist is benched or runs out of eligibility. It's a sad thing to say, but I'm tired of watching the train wreck.

Fred Whitehead Jr. 9 years, 7 months ago

Thnks for the support, Table Rock, in this forum it is not unusual to be called a troll or worse.

Jake, I have a right to "pick" on Notre Dame. It was November 16, 1957 wnen Notre Dame came to Norman and beat Bud Wilkinson's Sooners ending their 47 game winning streak, a record that still stands today.

OU plays Notre Dame this week, and you can certainly believe there will still be may fans there that remember that black day in Sooner football history.

Also, one must rememher that while OU has always been a national power in college football, I doubt that there are many today that remember such coaching flops at OU as Gomer Jones, Howard Schnellenbarger, or Gary Gibbs. These things happen, but football has always been a relition in Norman, so the ship usually gets bailed out and back on an even keel.

Micky Baker 9 years, 7 months ago

If fans want Weis fired now, go ahead and do that. What coach would ever come here again? The fans don't get it. What happened at Kansas everyone blamed on a guy that did nothing wrong, you know, because of "association", even though most of those involved with the ticket scandal have been tried and found guilty. Time to grow up KU fans! GROW UP QUICK!

mikehawk 9 years, 7 months ago

Who on these blogs really knows if The Old Ball Coach really can coach AND recruit. The AD supposedly does, or is supposed to. Like it or not, we have to stick with the current regime and see if we can eventually have our "one good team every decade." The only thing worse than three coaches in four years is four in five. It really wasn't that many years ago the talk was Kansas State was so bad in football that maybe they should drop out of the Big 8. If not for our basketball team they might be saying the same right now about us and our membership in the Big 12(10). My Oklahoma friends were sympathetic at church this morning and I reminded them we won the Orange Bowl four short years ago. Of course, that seems like a lifetime ago, or almost half way to the one good team every decade which seems to be our history. I responded to them in a way any respecting KU fan does by saying basketball is just around the corner to salve our aching egos. I'm not texting my good KSU fan friend down here in Tulsa I know very well. I haven't even teased her this year about KSU plans to have Snyder serve as head coach from the grave after death. The're good. Apparently, darn good, and we just have to do what we do most years which is wait until basketball and next year for our football team. Charlie Weiss needs to go out and recruit. In reality, we need him to be a better recruiter than a coach. We don't have enough Big 12 type players and I don't care how good a coach you are you can't win with the level of talent we currently have. Rice and Tulsa, members of Conference USA played a close game yesterday, with Tulsa prevailing in the last minute. That is about where our talent level is but we don't play in their least not yet. Our current dog won't hunt in the Big 12. How many days to the first KU basketball game? It won't get here fast enough.

BayPark 9 years, 7 months ago

I think we have a few good players who could start for a majority of the Big-12. Perhaps four or five. But our talent level is rock-bottom, we have no depth, and I don't think any coach on the planet could coax more than a couple wins from this group of players.

Chayse Patrick 9 years, 7 months ago

and the sad thing is Depth is the thing all the coaches raved about all summer and into fall drills. what the hell happened? are the coaches that inept about evaluating and judging talent? If so KU is in for a long long road ahead of them and continual losing!!!!!

KUMC84 9 years, 7 months ago

I'm tired of the excuses that we don't have any talent on the roster. We have a senior dominated O-line that I've seen control a game and we have 3 to 4 running backs that are as good as any group in the Big 12. However, we've got a head coach too stubborn to use the talent and have his offensive coordinator adjust to that talent. Defensively, we don't look a lot different than a lot of the Big 12 teams. K-State's defense has a number of walk-ons that are starting and doing the job, but Weiss doesn't want to consider walk-ons because they aren't "his players". A lot of them are Kansas kids but Weiss doesn't seem to be recruiting the Kansas high school kids this year. Cozart came with Grunhard and Darling realy can't be considered a Kansas kid since this is his first year here. For us to be successful, I agree it has to come down to recruiting, which judging from the experienced talent he relied so heavily on this year, I'm not optimistic for the future. He needs to earn his pay and develop who he has into players that can play in this league rather than plannnig on having NFL type talent walk in the door.

KUMC84 9 years, 7 months ago

You made my point - head coach and offensive coordinator are the same, so don't say I don't even know that. As far as Crist making the plays in practice, it's a lot different when the coach doesn't want any pressure applied to the receivers in practice. Makes it pretty easy for the QB to look good.I wasn't thnking we'd be competing for the conference championship, but we're playing at the same level as last year. I don't agree that the youngster getting some real bullets now is a sign of good coaching. I think it's a necessity because the other QB isn't able to get the job done.

JakeBarnes 9 years, 7 months ago

Ralster. You will probably never see this, but you're so much brighter when you post positive analyses such as this one. You need to kick ass and take names less. P.S. you also know a lot.

BTW, the defense isn't all that bad. It compares favorably with the lower end of the Big 12.

Phil Leister 9 years, 7 months ago

The rumblings about firing Weis have to stop. If we fire him after 1,2, or even 3 years, NO coach will come here. He's gotta be allowed to finish out his contract. We can't keep buying coaches out. No coach would want to attempt to resurrect a football program from the depths if the programs last 3 coaches have all been bought out. Rebuilding this program will take time, and lots of it. Look at Snyder's first years at KSU. Look at Gundy's first years at OSU. I'm not saying Weis is in either of their realms, but he deserves the time. It's our only option.

Chayse Patrick 9 years, 7 months ago

We cannot fire Wies!!!! But he has to realize by now that crist IS NOT our QB not now not in 3 games not EVER!!!!! What wies should of done was played Cummings early in the season against teams like rice and NIU and not throw him to the big dogs like he did with OSU and OU. The kid didn't stand a chance and then playing musical QB's like he did against OU was the stupidest thing he ever did. I hope Zenger is proud of his great hire. OMFG LMFAO. Yep we're "turning the corner"!!!!! Thank the Lord everyday for basketball. Hey the 1st game is a week from tomorrow. YIIIIIIIIIIIPPPPPPPEEEEEEEE

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