Florida defeats Kansas, 67-61

  • 6 p.m., Dec. 10, 2013
  • Stephen C. O'Connell Center, Gainesvillle, FL

Tuesday, December 10, 2013

Gator Bait: KU basketball chomped, 67-61, by No. 19 Florida

Kansas guard Frank Mason is caught between Florida defenders Michael Frazier II, left, and Will Yeguete during the first half on Tuesday, Dec. 10, 2013 at O'Connell Center in Gainesville, Florida.

Kansas guard Frank Mason is caught between Florida defenders Michael Frazier II, left, and Will Yeguete during the first half on Tuesday, Dec. 10, 2013 at O'Connell Center in Gainesville, Florida.


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Press Conferences & Post-Game Interviews

Bill Self after loss at Florida

Bill Self after loss at Florida

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Florida 67, Kansas 61

Box score

— Going with four freshman starters for what is believed to be the first time in Kansas University basketball history looked like a fine game plan against Florida on Tuesday night in O’Connell Center.

“It wasn’t who we started that was the problem. We were up 10-3,” KU coach Bill Self exclaimed after the Jayhawks’ group of rookies Joel Embiid, Frank Mason, Wayne Selden and Andrew Wiggins plus sophomore Perry Ellis opened strong, then were victimized by a 21-0 run during a 67-61 loss to the Gators.

“I think we should have had an electrical shortage and canceled the game after that,” Self added of the early seven-point lead that quickly turned into a 24-10 deficit.

“We actually made a couple shots and played pretty well the first five minutes. We were awful after that,” Self stated. “When it started going bad (deficit stretching to 34-16 and 36-21 at half), we didn’t do anything to stop it. I don’t think it was lack of effort. I think anything that can go wrong went wrong.”

The (6-3) Jayhawks committed 16 turnovers the first half in trailing (7-2) Florida by 15 at the break.

“We set a record. I think that’s an NCAA record maybe,” Self said of the 16 turnovers in 20 minutes. KU finished with 24 miscues. “Three assists (to) 16 turnovers ... that’s bad. We thought we played poorly against TCU in the first half last year (in loss to Big 12’s last place team). That was worse tonight no question. The quality of competition was different.

“To get outscored 18-0 on points off turnovers? If we could have just got a 35-second call every time and they had to take the ball out of bounds we would have had a chance maybe to be in the game. That’s been our Achille's heel all year. We are not a real skilled team yet. We pass the ball miserably. We don’t pass the ball well at all.”

KU freshman point Frank Mason had five turnovers to no assists; junior point Naadir Tharpe five assists against three turnovers. Frosh combo guard Wayne Selden, who played one minute the final half, had four turnovers to one assist.

“He had a tough night,” Self said of Selden. “He, Perry (Ellis, four points, three turnovers, four rebounds) and obviously Frank. That was a pretty tough night for those guys. I think they can learn and respond and handle situations better moving forward.”

Of the lead guard play, Self said: “the thing is, if your offense sucks in football, usually you look at the quarterbacks. I’m not saying ... it doesn’t fall on the point guards totally. They can do better, but we all can do better. Certainly I don’t think our guard play has been consistent so far.”

Frosh wing Andrew Wiggins scored 18 of his career-high 26 points in the second half as KU made it a game. The Jayhawks were down 58-52 at 1:20 following a Wiggins three. After a KU steal, it was ruled Wiggins, who went up for a shot, threw the ball out of bounds, Florida taking possession and canning two free throws at 1:06 to go up by eight again.

Brannen Greene, who had five points in 14 minutes, batted the ball out of bounds with KU down 61-55 with :45.3 left.

“That was on me. I mishandled the ball. It went out of bounds, stupid mistake,” Greene said.

Again Florida hit a pair of free throws after that miscue to go up eight at :37.1 Two Jamari Traylor free throws sliced the gap to 65-61 at :10.9 seconds, but a pair of Kasey Hill free throws answered at :8.5.

“Even though we lost, it showed we’re not going to back down,” Wiggins said. “We’re playing until the end.”

The Jayhawks, who have dropped three of four games, will next meet New Mexico at 6 p.m., Saturday, in Sprint Center in Kansas City, Mo. Chances are Self will go with the four freshmen again.

“I am not down on my freshmen,” Self said. “We can play better. Our more experienced guys are sophomores. That’s not really experienced. They don’t have anybody they can fall back on. We’ve got to get everybody playing better. I can’t blame it all on youth. We could have come here and played great and got beat by six. Florida is good, talented. A lot of it may be youth. I think we can still play better.”


Preston Dwiggins 8 years ago

The Good: Wiggins The Bad: Florida's Zone D# The Ugly: Turnovers

This team is so salty that I need a drink. In other words...I'm not worried, but holding steady in my belief in our Jayhawks.

Suzi Marshall 8 years ago

I wish my belief in this year's team could be held steady. Our lack of guard play is a killer. I have confidence that Selden will come around as Perry did last year. I'm not so confident about our PG play. I don't think Tharpe is capable of playing defense and he certainly does not give blocking out on the boards any effort, where numerous times he just stood flat footed and let someone cut in front of him to put back an offensive board for 2, i.e. Frazer is one example. Mason 0 assist with 5 TOs! At one point a little over midway through the first have, FL had missed 16 shots but had 9 ORebs!

Four times Mason drove to the basket, every time he had guys open for a dunk but he chose to take the shot...and missed or was blocked. This team has the best talent of any Kansas teams since ... Chamberlain but are possibly the worst team since '83. They don't pass the ball or play with any idea of team work. I don't know how Self can pull this team together without a PG.

Eric TheCapn 8 years ago

Just a little side note... if you miss by as far as Florida did, you're gonna get a lot of offensive boards. This team majorly lacks cohesion. ...and maybe some synergy.

Jack Wilson 7 years, 12 months ago

Suzi: I'm sorry, I know you were frustrated by Mason last night, but don't just make stuff up.

You say "Four times Mason drove to the basket, every time he had guys open for a dunk but he chose to take the shot...and missed or was blocked."

That is just a flat out fabrication. You make appear that when Mason drove he just disregarded passing saying guys were "open for a dunk." Again, you just made this up.

I rewatched the game. Maybe you should too before making statements that are just untrue.

1st Half drives: 14:20 ball batted away as he tried to pass; 12;28, Mason misses but there is no one open; 5:25 lost the ball going 1 on 3 on the break, no one there to pass to.

2nd Half drives: 18:30 drives under basket passes out; 17:33 drives on break, scores, no one else there; 17:14 On break, fumbled ball without a shot, but we retained possession; 8:50 drive on break, got fouled and free throws; 5:20 drove into traffic, no one available for pass, got blocked.

For example, on the last drive Embiid and Traylor were near, but a Florida defender was between each of them and Mason. That is isn't "open for a dunk."

Again, I know it's frustrating to see zero assists, and sure, he had some ill advised drives (and a poor game overall) but making it appear that he guys to dish to "four times" is delusional.

Suzi Marshall 7 years, 12 months ago

HEM, I did the same thing you apparently did and went back and watched the game play by play. There certainly were guys open in most cases when he was about 7' from the basket. Those are tough passes to make but if you're under 6' and want to drive into the trees you better be able to make that pass. I'm not going to re-watch but it sounds like you have each drive properly marked. With all this talent, I wish we could have landed an elite PG to run the show.

Jack Wilson 7 years, 12 months ago

Sorry, Suzi, you are flat wrong. Guys open when he was 7' from the basket?

You're talking about guys being open for dunks on four drives. There weren't guys open for dunks on any drives.

There are times when point guards don't pass when guys are open ... saw that a number of times with Tyshawn Taylor. But on Mason's drives last night, that was just not the case.

Suzi Marshall 7 years, 12 months ago

I counted 4 times. Look I know what you are talking about and admit those openings were for a split second at various times in the drive....for a dunk. I didn't even mention the kick-out 3 options. A small guard must have that ability (vision and passing) if he's going to drive the lane. Stay tuned for Self's Tuesday presser. I'll bet a dime it is brought up.

Rich Hetherington 7 years, 12 months ago

I agree with you Suzi... To say I was unimpressed with Mason last night would be an understatement. He wasn't able to draw fouls, score or pass the ball with any accuracy. Teams are already adjusting to him, and I for one don't want him driving into the lane to be our biggest offensive catalyst as has been the case so far this year. It just doesn't lead to a very good +/- if he can't at least get to the free throw line on those, and even when he was, it was clear he wasn't a great finisher in the lane. I love Mason, but they need to gameplan so that he isn't having to carry the offense and drive to the hoop so often.

Mick Allen 7 years, 12 months ago

Once again you are right on point HEM. It was without a doubt Mason's worst game taking care of the ball. He was 3 for 6 shooting the ball so that contradicts her statement that 4 times he went into the lane and missed shots. When he gets into the lane the bigs must get to an open space when the help comes defensively to check Mason. This did not happen. It was his 3rd start and 9th game he has played. More concerning to me is the disappearance of Ellis. He represents some of our very little experience and he plays 24 minutes and scores 4 points and grabs 4 rebounds. Unfortunately his play resembles his play of the first half of last season. Also she spares Selden from criticism. As he has in the last few games he hits a quick 3 then disappears. If he is a lottery pick right now, so am I. Her other criticism of Nadiir not blocking out on the boards shows a lack of understanding of what a 5' 11" point guard's responsibilities are. As you are aware he has to be the first defender back against the offense if they try to push it up court on a turn over or a defensive rebound. Florida, a good team started 4 seniors. We start 4 freshmen. The jump from high school to a big time college game between 2 prominent programs is every bit as large a jump as it is from college to the NBA. Keep the faith. Lastly with regard to Mason, please think back to Tyshawn's freshman, sophomore and even junior years. In my humble opinion, Mason is light years ahead of Ty at the same point.

Suzi Marshall 7 years, 12 months ago

Babyphog, ok some of them did not turn out to be actual shots. A couple he tried a pass but could not make the play. Debating our play is kinda fun. Sometime we should all meet at 810 Zone after the game with computers in hand. We can make the argument with the tape.

With regards to Tharpe blocking out. I fully know what his job should be. Go back and look at the tip in Mason had. Tharpe just stood there flat footed a few feet from the basket and let Frasier come through for the tip. If a guy is going to stand around near the basket for a rebound, he should block the lane to the basket. There was atleast one similar play like that one. Phog would agree with that observation.

Rich Hetherington 7 years, 12 months ago

Well he was fouled which doesn't count towards shot%, and he also simply dropped a ball, which also doesn't count. He had at least 4 trips into the lane (and really it seemed like more) that finished with an unsuccessful outcome. Hopefully we'll see something a little different in the NM game this weekend.

Mike Adams 7 years, 12 months ago

The reason Ellis is not scoring is WE DONT GET HIM THE BALL, we don't have any point guards! Or shooters (well shooters that are punishing the zone, but they will come around). Mason wasn't even a point guard in high school (re-occurring theme = EJ), Tharpe was known as a shooter, not a passer or playmaker...he hasn't gotten much better at KU. If Ellis got the ball closer than 15 from the basket he would score all day. Mason is not close to Ty, he will never ever be able to play defense like Ty, and he will never be able to finish in high level talent scenarios like Ty, consistently! He was blocked last night, and in one situation was out of control and fell on his side, about a 5 foot drop, His is a nice player but not KU level talent, if we want to win big. Self needs to hire an assistant that can recruit point guards, since the Selby fiasco other coaches have been able to convince elite point guards that KU is a bad deal...Mason almost went to Towson,....

Suzi Marshall 7 years, 12 months ago

Babyphog, Tharpe ran the offense much better than Mason but played horrible defense throughout the game. One of the blockout Tharpe missed was in the second half at 3:13 Finney-Smith missed a left hander under the basket. Tharpe let Prather came down the middle for a tip. Vitale, referring to Tharpe, mentioned how nobody blocked out Prather. I couldn't bear watching anymore to find other examples. Tharpes defense was worse than I originally thought.

Suzi Marshall 7 years, 12 months ago

Only for you HEM, I went back over the tape of the game and looked at each of Mason’s drives. The below are the missed dunk opportunities. 1) 14:20 (1st half) Had Traylor for a lob dunk. He tried a bounce pass too late. Looks like he bounced it off or UF’s Finney-Smith’s foot. Nevertheless Mason was called for a push off foul on Wilbekin. Self took Mason out after that jewel of a play.

2) 12:26 (1st half) Mason drove the lane with Wiggins coming open underneath for a dunk. Young stepped up to cut Mason off. Black had his man screened off the play. Frazier 96’4” was the only possible help from the weak side. Mason took the shot, missed Traylor rebounded.

3) 19:50 (2st half) Mason drive with 3 UF players in the paint. Young came up to make the stop while Embiid got the inside position with his left leg ready to seal off young once he got the ball. A bounce pass before Frazier moved in was open. With a good pass, Embiid would have spun for a dunk from his baseline position. Mason did not make the pass and tried to shoot it over Young but got blocked then committed a foul.

4) 8:48 (2st half) Wilbekin went for a steal forcing Prather to defend Mason’s drive. At that point we had a 3 on one with Black open in front of the basket for a lob dunk. Ellis was coming in from the weak side wing, also open for a lob dunk or bounch pass with a clear path to the basket…for a dunk. Mason instead went for the shot and was fouled making 1 or 2.

Other fruitless drives: I. 19:03 (1st half) Drove, bad kick back pass to Wiggins. Bailed out with a foul called on Finney-Smith

II. 5:27 (1st half) Mason (“Out of control”) drove into the lane occupied with 2 UF defenders (Prather and Frazier) and Wilbekin coming in from the weak side with Wiggins behind him. Young was the nearest trailer with Embiid a half step behind. Mason kicked it away for a turnover. Mason tried to take it to the hole 1 on 3. No Hawks around the paint.

III. 5:19 (2st half) Drove lane with absolutely nothing with 4 UF players in the lane. Yeguete had Embiid blocked from coming across the lane. Mason took the shot and was blocked. Only a miracle pass to Traylor trailing could have saved the play. Kansas got possession but then Mason turned it over with a bad pass. Self took put Tharpe in for Mason.

Mike Adams 7 years, 12 months ago

Wow - talk about the posting police. People get emotionally invested in the game and come on here and post things that are fabrications, not a big's therapy for some, and also fun at times to go nutty. We aren't journalists and in 2 days who will care what's on this web page.....

Walter Bridges 7 years, 12 months ago

Well that's much better HEM..Mason driving to the basket with no one to pass the ball out to. 5 foot 11 driving into the heart of Florida zone with nowhere to go to is much better than not seeing open players.

Thanks for that clarification.

Mike Riches 8 years ago

As frustrating as it is to see our team lose again, I'm sure that one thing that Nova, Colorado and Florida have in common is, none of them want to see Kansas again in March. To play as bad as we did for 20 minutes of this game, to be on the losing end of a 21-0 run, to commit 16 turnovers in the first half, all of this against a top 20 program on their home court, and to be within a couple possessions at the end of the game, speaks volumes about how who this team is.

The bad will get better. One of the most inexperienced teams in the country playing the most difficult non-conference schedule...perhaps these types of losses were bound to happen. But teams can grow from losses, in some cases more than they grow from wins. I do believe they'll look back and be grateful to have had this tough on-the-job training in December against good, ranked teams, rather than play a super-easy fall schedule and not face any real adversity until conference play. I still believe 100% in what Bill Self has been saying since Spring...this team can be really good by the end of the season (which is when we all would love to see them peak!)

Rich Hetherington 7 years, 12 months ago

I completely agree Mike. They are becoming battle tested and still learning with each game. We've seen other Kansas teams struggle early and become more and more dominant into the conference season. They haven't typically had a stretch losing 3 of 4, but they haven't depended so heavily on freshman either. For them to finish so close after playing such a horrible game, really shows me that when they do start to figure things out, they will be as dominant as everyone thought they would be.

Benz Junque 8 years ago

I counted at least 13 missed shots within 5 feet of the basket in the last 8 minutes of the game. Factor that in with the turnovers and it's amazing we only lost by 6. That first half was the worst half of basketball I have seen since... last year's TCU game. At least this train wreck wasn't with 4 seniors in the starting lineup against a terrible team.

I keep trying to figure out where the bottom will be before these guys start to get a clue and have some confidence that they have actually practiced and know what to do. They made strides and competed in the 21nd half but still shot themselves in the foot too much.

And NOW can we stop calling for more minutes for Greene? Good god, that kid couldn't guard me. Brannen, you are in there because you allegedly can shoot threes. TWO attempts in 13 minutes is ridiculous.

Preston Dwiggins 8 years ago

Please don't remind me of that TCU game, it was almost out of my head :)

Two of the guys I thought was going to step in, give us solid minutes and leadership has done nothing of the sort. Tarik Black and Naadir Tharpe. Because these two couldn't hold down their jobs, we're stuck with inexperienced freshmen starting the two most important positions in my opinion. I know what you're thinking...It's Embiid though. I know and I love his game, but he's not quite ready.

I wish all of our guys played with Traylor's enthusiasm! If Greene had Traylor's "motor", the NBA would be taking note.

Benz Junque 7 years, 12 months ago

I think it is very important that I remind people of the TCU game. Last year, KU had a three game stretch of completely clueless head scratching basketball in the first week of February. They looked like they had never played basketball before and it was a team that started four seniors. They were still able to win the conference and be major contenders for the Final Four a month and a half later.

I am glad that KU is facing this now instead of in February. They have time to get it figured out. I hope that half of basketball was the bottom of the roller coaster.

Glen Miller 7 years, 12 months ago

They had the same problem then, that they have now..... no point guard. For a while that wasn't an issue. In the waining minutes of the Michigan game it reared it's ugly head. If we don't figure something out at the point, I don't know if we will advance past the second round in March. I love my Hawks, but it's pretty obvious to me that Self needs to get a point guard in here and missing out on TYus Jones was a heartbreaker. Going into next season we still don't have a point and that worries me. You can have all the talent in the world, but if you can't get the ball up the floor then that's a problem.

RJ King 7 years, 12 months ago

Going into next year Tharpe will be a senior and Mason a sophomore with lots of playing time under his belt. I know it's not like landing the #1, 2 or 3 PG in a class, but odds are each player's game will at least be an improvement over their current play.

Jack Wilson 7 years, 12 months ago

On Brannen Greene, he drills a three after getting a little time in the game early. Self put him back in (presumably because he did fine and made no major errors in his first stint); he then scores 5 points in his second opportunity in the game.

You complain that he didn't shoot. Ok The last game, he took his first three, open, good on the shot clock, and was immediately yanked. He played smart, and played in a manner that got him a second opportunity at playing time. Give the kid a little rope.

And the "kid couldn't guard me" is a ridiculous comment, and is a statement based on absolute ignorance. I'm sorry to be harsh there. But try rewatching the game. I did. He's obviously not a lockdown defender, but his defense was fine.

I've seen posters many times play the "he doesn't play good defense" card to support whatever position they decide to take. It's a red herring. If his defense is so atrocious, Self surely would have yanked him, right?

And Brannen Greene made a crucial steal at the 1:20 mark of the second half; the one where Wiggins got fouled (wasn't called) and the ball went to Florida. That was a huge play negated by a huge no call.

What you saw from Greene last night was steady, solid play. The only complaint was that he didn't shoot the 3 enough. Call it self preservation. But he did drill a three (missing another rushed one with 12 seconds left). More regular time and you'll see some good stuff from outside.

You may want to complain about him because you have taken the prior uninformed position that shooters should just be able to come in and drill 3s of the bench, regardless of prior playing time or game situation. And I know you disagree with the "let them get into game situations and get comfortable" approach.

But by saying he couldn't guard you, you are basically saying he's incompetent on the defensive end. That is simply untrue. It's easy to say, of course. His defense was certainly adequate if not pretty good last night.

Ryan Michael 7 years, 12 months ago

Thank you! I'm glad at least someone else saw that Greene played very well. In my opinion, he needs more minutes. He's got more reason to be rough around the edges than anyone else on the court (barely getting any minutes), and yet he was one of the most solid guys on the court yesterday. He will only get better with more PT.

Glen Miller 7 years, 12 months ago

He turns the ball over too much. He almost has more turnovers than minutes. He can shoot yeah, but when he's not shooting, he's throwing it out of bounds or making a stupid pass cross court over 3 defenders. Last night was the first game he played ok. He probably got more minutes because he was the best of the worst. Let's not act like he's the second coming.

Ryan Michael 7 years, 12 months ago

Who is acting like he's the second coming? And as far as cross court over 3 defenders... Did you not watch the rest of the team? That is this entire teams strategy for dealing with the zone. Stand still and try to lob rainbow passes over defenders to get the ball to the other guy who is standing still...

That was the whole first half of the game.

Mike Adams 7 years, 12 months ago

Plus, He isn't any worse than our point guards. Mason had 5 turnovers and ZERO assists. Why should Greene be held to a high standard than our point guards during this early season growing period. The kid needs to play or he's gone next year, he's a stud. If you saw AW3 on the bench yesterday he was pouting when AWiggins was attempting to bring us back, they would go to the bench and he was sitting there, only player not clapping, looked completely uninterested. I am surprised he hasn't transferred out yet, he will be a good player whereever he lands.

Most of these players will be fine in 30 days but we will still have inadequate point guard play, period. We may win the Big 12 and all which is an accomplishment, but in the tournament and against teams with athletic guards we are going to be easy to take out of our game. I will enjoy the ride though we have many great players and it's fun to watch them get better.

Self is trying to learn to coach defense under the new rules, with young players....his style of defense is a complete change from what's being called now and it's obvious he hasn't adjusted to coaching it yet. We struggle with very basic principals, it's amazing really when you watch.

I am curious who our leader is going to be, or will it be a group effort by default if nobody steps up? Our team does not talk at all, nobody gather a huddle - quite remarkable to see 5 players out there at any given time and they just look at each other, someone needs to get after it, seeing our players stand up while the ball is on the court, giving no effort to dive for it, or jogging back on defense only to watch the other team lay it in the basket is getting old. Someone needs to remind them they have KANSAS on their jersey if nothing else, unacceptable, You don't hear kids over the last 10 years or so talking about playing because hard EVERY play because they have KANSAS on their jersey and it represents so much history etc..and they have to live up to that...I love Self, but this is the one trait I miss from Roy's teams, and it seemed sincere not just post game interview speak.

Preston Dwiggins 7 years, 12 months ago

Are you sure it's Greene throwing it out of bounds, because I am seeing a lot of different blue jersey's carelessly doing so?!

Suzi Marshall 7 years, 12 months ago

HEM, Greene did try hard, that seemed clear to me. His turnover at the end of the game was the sure killer to a miracle rally. It had some of the casual ear marks to his turnover in the Duke game with a minute to go before half. Self yanked in for that one never to return to the game....then things spiraled down for him. I really like Greene and we do need him in the game but he's got to tighten up his game some more. (I know everyone does.).

Ryan you are correct about Tharpe but he's sub 6' and UF has some big guards. What got me was and his poor blocking out / standing around on some of those UF ORebs.

Rich Hetherington 7 years, 12 months ago

I totally agree! I didn't think he looked that bad on defense at all. He appeared to be hustling, had a steal, didn't take bad shots, and hit one early on. That's good enough for me from a freshman that's barely had any PT so far. I think he's going to be very good for this team (maybe not this year because of the talent ahead of him, but definitely for his career at Kansas). He's also very smart, so I have the feeling he'll do what it takes to steadily improve over that time.

Benz Junque 7 years, 12 months ago

No, he did not come back in and score 5. His early three subtracted from his five point total would lead me to believe that he came back in and scored TWO additional points (on free throws no less). He made ONE BASKET from the floor in his 13 minutes. If you want to call out other posters for being inaccurate you better be sure what you post is right...

I watched Scottie Wilbiken go right around Greene several times. I watched Greene lose his man on the perimeter several times. I watched Greene have a crucial turnover in the midst of the late run. I will give him props for coming up with a key loose ball offensive rebound and for generally hustling but he wasn't in there to be steady and solid. We don't need a Brady Morningstar on the team just passing the ball around the loop. He's in there to get open to shoot threes and he didn't. Let's not forget his 4 fouls and 2 turnovers in 13 minutes...

Self didn't yank Greene in the second half because his other options (White and Selden) were WORSE when they were in there. Greene's one three likely had Self hoping that he would at least be able to continue to produce offense. He didn't. So it goes.

We simply have a different idea of what good defense is. I watched a guy that did nothing to create a stop. Then again he wasn't alone in that last night. Not many on the team did, either. Florida took what they wanted from the KU defense. Half the time they didn't even have to face a KU defense as they ran out in transition from bad KU turnovers.

Jack Wilson 7 years, 12 months ago

Greene did not score in his first half stint in the game. He scored when he came back in, something he didn't get a chance to do the last few times.

I'm just saying to be a little patient here. And I appreciate the positive statements about Greene. Don't expect more of him than the other guys on the court. This is his first solid game action since Duke, where he played pretty good. You choose to complain about him. Puzzling.

We do have a difference of opinion on his defense. Again, not saying it's lockdown or anything like that, but it wasn't problematic and was certainly adequate.

Don't you think Self would have yanked him if his defense was as bad as you suggest?

Benz Junque 7 years, 12 months ago

He did. Greene was out there for just 2:14 in the first half which was right when Florida started blowing our doors off. It went from 13-10 UF to 18-10 UF in his two minutes on the floor.

Florida's possessions while he was on the floor:

1) Personal foul on Greene 2) Prather missed layup but putback dunk by Young 3) Wilbekin jumper 4) Shooting foul on Greene

That's awesome. Two of the four possessions he played on defense resulted in him fouling someone. I don't know who was guarding Wilbekin on his jumper but I have a feeling who it was.

And again, this is from a guy who is supposed to be a lights out shooter. ZERO shot attempts in the time he was out there.

Self sits him, then gives him another shot in the 2nd half from 15:46 left to 11:55 left. At least his turnover and foul counts matched his shot attempts for these minutes (all at ZERO). And if you're counting at home that is still a grand total of ZERO shot attempts for one of our elite "shooters". So why are you out there, again?

Then he played the last 7:58 of the game after what I would assume was after a stern reminder of what his role is on the team. Self sent him back out there and on KU's very next possession less than a minute later he FINALLY shot (and made) a three pointer. THANK YOU. Sadly, for the next seven minutes he managed to provide just one shot attempt (which resulted in two made free throws mercifully) plus a prayer three point attempt with 10 seconds left in which he appeared to have his foot on the line.

I do give him props for his three rebounds earned off of hustle and he certain played both hard and under control. But it is only a benefit to give your shooters minutes if they ACTUALLY SHOOT. We already have guys that can pass the ball around the perimeter.

Luca Rossi 7 years, 12 months ago

Agreed that Greene is one of our better defenders, brings good energy. However I didn't like that he stayed off his man when the ball handler picked up his dribble near the sideline and was struggling to find a teammate to pass to. Greene should have pressed up closer to his man and denied the pass, possibly forcing a turnover or at the minimum a Florida timeout. Instead he allowed his man to receive the pass without being contested.

Bob Hechlor 7 years, 12 months ago

I think that Greene was one of the few bright spots in last nights game. I thought his length was actually needed against that team and he handled the ball better than the guards. I hope he continues to be utilized more and to be able to perform consistently as he did last night.

Ryan Michael 7 years, 12 months ago

What game were you watching? Greene played fine defense... You know who couldn't play defense? Tharpe. Watch the tape, he tries to go behind every screen and is constantly giving up wide open 3's.

I thought Greene came in with some fire... He hit a key 3 right off the bat to get us rolling. Quite frankly I think he needs MORE minutes. He should be playing 10-15 minutes a game.

Walter Bridges 7 years, 12 months ago

Unfortunately, Greene has been cowed by Coach Self and knows that launching an ill advised three-point shot will put him back on the bench. Our best three point shooter didn't even make an appearance and Selden should be called Seldom. This team's chemistry is not very good and Self needs to find some way to get these guys playing together.

There were periods in the first half that I just couldn't watch. Ended up taping the game. And what's with Tarik Black? He's missing shots that I wouldn't have believed possible for a man of his size and weight. He has absolutely no touch. If he cannot dunk it then pass it out to someone else.

Benz Junque 7 years, 12 months ago

If Greene knows that taking an ill-advised shot will land him on the bench, maybe he should take GOOD shots instead of none? It doesn't make the coach overbearing if he frowns on bad shots. The offense provides ample looks at good shots for shooters. He just has to stop standing around waiting for it to happen and move around a bit to create a good look. This isn't high school where the opponent is so short and overmatched you can just shoot over the top of them.

Just a thought...

Brett Clark 8 years ago

Why does it seem like KU has never been able to play against the zone? Our guard play has got too get better. Wayne Selden playing 1 minute in the second half is unacceptable the kid is supposed to be a lottery pick. I love the way JoJo is playing his defense looks better every game. Only up from here boys

Benz Junque 7 years, 12 months ago

People gripe about not getting Greene minutes so they give him minutes and then people gripe about the guy who's minutes he gets not playing. BRILLIANT. You can't play the bench guys AND the starters, folks. There's only 5 at a time.

Ryan Michael 7 years, 12 months ago

Do you have a split personality disorder or something? Literally 1 post up, it's YOU that is claiming Greene shouldn't get minutes... Other people are happy with his play. This post is comical.

Benz Junque 7 years, 12 months ago

As you can see, I hate conversations about "why didn't (fill in the blank) play more?" It's a conversation with no basis in reality. There is no way to say what would have happened if a different player was in there so why bother?

I would be fine if he said "Wayne Selden having 4 turnovers in 14 minutes of play is unacceptable, the kid is supposed to be a lottery pick". That is a conversation that is based on reality.

Jack Wilson 7 years, 12 months ago

Benz: I don't recall Brett griping about Greene getting minutes, so I don't understand your response to him. Perhaps you could respond with something helpful and let Brett know your thoughts on why coach Self wasn't playing Selden in the second half.

Benz Junque 7 years, 12 months ago

No, he is griping about Selden not getting minutes. As you are aware, there were a zillion people last week griping about Greene not getting minutes. If Greene plays, SOMEONE HAS NOT NOT PLAY. That is what I am laughing about.

After every loss, there are always fans that come on here claiming that whatever person was sitting on the bench was the person that the coach should have played. If Self left Selden in there and he continued to suck as bad as he did in the first half, people would be griping that White or Greene should have played more. It's absurd.

Walter Bridges 7 years, 12 months ago

Benz has it right but if it had been any other freshman, he would have been sitting for nearly the entire game. There seems to be some sort of double standard being set.

And let's be honest.. What will happen to KU recruiting if this team goes belly up?

Benz Junque 7 years, 12 months ago

What happened to Kentucky recruiting after they went belly up last year? They proceeded to sign the highest ranking class of all time. Doesn't seem to have had an impact at all.

Walter Bridges 7 years, 12 months ago

Maybe the Kansas lottery... He should go with the quick pick.

Pam Goad 7 years, 12 months ago

One of the most significant remarks I heard the announcers make last night was that this team appears to have no leader. They remarked that no one took the initiative to pull the team together in a huddle after one of the players (Selden?) was fouled, and that this looked like a group of individuals - not a team. I'd have to agree. Sure doesn't look like Kansas basketball right now. If they improve to even close to their potential, it will be one of Bill Self's best coaching jobs ever. If they don't, then a few of those "lottery picks" may end up playing a second year and then they will be good. :-)

Benz Junque 7 years, 12 months ago

Lottery picks leave to be lottery picks whether they are ready or not. Selden is the only one who may see his stock drop that might stay. We haven't replaced him in recruiting yet, so he still has a spot. Embiid and Wiggins are gone no matter how the rest of the season plays out.

Glen Miller 7 years, 12 months ago

Wiggins will be gone, he's already said as much. Embiid could stay. To me it sounds and looks like the kid has solid family support and he is enjoying his college experience. Staying another season to hone his game and become even better is not out of the question. It's really his call. Does he want to go to the NBA and do most of his developement in practice the first year and get 8-10 minutes a game or does he want to stay at Kansas and play major minutes and be the focal point of the offense and refine his craft? I don't think his mind is made up on jumping to the NBA. Ellis and Embiid with Alexander and Traylor backing them up would be just sick in my opinion. I also think unless Selden just flips a switch, he will be back. He needs to work on his release point on his shot and his ball handling.

Suzi Marshall 7 years, 12 months ago

Glen, I agree with Benz about Embiid. Lord knows I'd love the kid to be back next year but he is a consensus top 5 pick. I expect that next year he'll continue learning his trade in the NBA D League ....with a multi-year, multi-million dollar contract. We really need to land Turner. Vaughn would be a nice addition..

Jeff Kilgore 7 years, 12 months ago

Actually, I believe that It's already understood that Embiid is gone if NBA scouts have him as high on the board in March as they do now. It's sad for us, but NBA scouts lose jobs when they pass on players like JoJo. It's dog-eat-dog that sees him gone.

Kent Richardson 7 years, 12 months ago

"Four times Mason drove to the basket, every time he had guys open for a dunk but he chose to take the shot...and missed or was blocked." Suzi you nailed it. Not very savvy of Frank.

Jack Wilson 7 years, 12 months ago

Except that Suzi just made up the stuff you quoted.

Suzi Marshall 7 years, 12 months ago

HEM...didn't make it up. I'll bet you a dime, Self says something about it this week during his presser. We should have some kind of re-watch party on here and I'd show you the opportunities he had. See my comments above.

Jack Wilson 7 years, 12 months ago

Suzi: Mason needs to find open guys as a point guard, no issue there.

But again, I'm sorry, I watched each of his drives. And there were none where if he'd dished, there would be open dunks for other guys as you claimed. It is a fiction. Name them. Give me the time stamps on the game.

Suzi Marshall 7 years, 12 months ago

HEM, ok now that you have thoroughly challenged my judgment, I'll re-watch the game, again tonight. Come back here later and I'll provide the exact time the play was there. I've been following your post for a couple of years and feel confident you'll say "those are split second openings." My rebuttal to that will be, "that is what the game is about, especially when a little guy is driving the lane." Vision is not only seeing the game in real time but the ability to "see/anticipate" how things will develop. To do that takes big time ability! I am a big fan of Masson! I really do believe he will get there in a couple of years but not this year when we have Wiggins and Embiid.

Jack Wilson 7 years, 12 months ago

Cool .. but I don't think I'll say that. Remember, my point here is not that he couldn't have or shouldn't have passed at some point. Clearly, a point guard needs to have some assists.

But you said that there were four instances were guys were open for dunks when Mason drove the ball. That means that they are right there, all Mason would have to do was deliver the ball. Really, I didn't see one on his drives where that was the case.

Suzi Marshall 7 years, 12 months ago

HEM...posted the 4 missed dunk opportunities above with the original discussion. Also listed 3 other ill advised drives but they were not missed scoring opportunities like the missed dunk ops.

Luca Rossi 7 years, 12 months ago

Game/Team Thoughts:

  1. Team lacks a leader: Like Pam mentioned above, you never see a players huddle on the court. Thought Tharpe would be the guy, where has he been? Who kidnapped him and replaced him with his low intensity, clueless evil twin with a ridiculous looking haircut?

  2. Team lacks defensive intensity: Missing a "Releford Guy." Forget a lockdown defender and new rules aside, the team still lacks any defensive intensity. They don't pressure the ball handler at all, basically just let him walk the ball up the court and do whatever he wants. Passes are barely contested. Think there was only one steal last night that I can remember and it came when they were in the press at the end of the game. I don't even remember a time where a defender went for a steal on a pass. I remember a specific play where a Florida guard picked up his dribble away from the hoop near the sideline, I expected our defenders to clamp down on their guy to force a 5 second call or turnover and they sat back and let him pass it out of trouble. We could be a lot better in this area.

  3. Team lacks a hustle guy: Last year we had Young who was always running full speed up and down the court. Our squad looks out of shape. They don't run the court as hard as I'm used to seeing a KU team run. I think Greene can potentially be this guy and could be his ticket onto the court for bigger minutes. If a few players pick up the hustle, it can be contagious too. Hope it catches on soon.

In the end, the sky is not falling, they still have a load of talent, and will surely get better. However, every other team in the country is going to get better too. KU needs to get better and a faster rate than the competition if they want to find themselves contending for a title at the end of the year. What concerns me is that they knew Florida would play zone, I'm sure they prepared for it, and they still looked bad. The improvement isn't being displayed yet and that's the concerning part.

Steve Kubler 7 years, 12 months ago

Agreed, a Releford type experienced player would make all the difference. As would a vocal highly energetic person like Young. I had hoped Black would be the man who took a leadership position on the floor. He spends so little time out there though even if he wanted to I'm not sure he could pull it off. Tharpe seemed to have the potential last year but so far this year I have not seen it. That may be the reason Mason is starting, to give him the chance of becoming a leader.

Not sure who else has a shot at it, Wiggins has the skill but as a known 1 and done I do not think can. Ellis is too withdrawn and quiet, I have not gotten a handle on Selden but so far don't see him making the attempt, and all the rest are too green or role players.

Some how Self has to get someone to step up and be in charge on the floor, otherwise it's going to be a long year.

Titus Canby 7 years, 12 months ago

How about Traylor as the "energy guy?" I haven't seen him much this year, but he always seems to hustle, and ever though he's sophomore, it's his third year in the program. Experience and hustle - it's what we need. Just not sure whose minutes he'd take. Some of Embiid's and some of Black's?

Walter Bridges 7 years, 12 months ago

He forgot his Red Bull so all you got was Bull S***

Kendall Shaw 7 years, 12 months ago

It's a fact of life that this years team will continue to face zone defenses. There is a right way and a wrong way to "attack a zone". Obviously it helps to make shots but from my perspective this is what I see: You don't stand around the perimeter and pass the ball without a purpose, especially lazy over the top passes. The defense resets every time and you're back to square one with the shot clock winding down. You do make sharp passes with ball reversal to get the zone to shift which will create seams in the zone. "fake a pass to make a pass". When the zone shifts passing and penetration becomes so much easier. In other words "DON'T HOLD THE BALL"! When the zone is shifting get the ball inside and kick it back out after the passer "relocates". When the shift in the zone occurs it is easier to penetrate the seam or angles to finish or to kick it out to a shooter. I fully believe once you "attack a zone" in this manner, a shooter will find it easier to get into a rhythm with their shot also. Thanks for hearing my frustration. This all sounds so basic. This team has so much talent, but until they figure out the rights and wrongs of breaking a zone their offense will struggle.

Mike Riches 7 years, 12 months ago

I think you're exactly right...last night our players looked shell-shocked playing against that zone, which I think is what lead to the timid play and seemingly endless turnovers. Keegan said it best in his article, it's one thing to play against a zone in practice, it's another to play against athletes that know how to run it very well. I hate to keep playing the youth card, but that's what this is, pure inexperience. When we become comfortable attacking the zone, teams will be forced to play man, and then watch out. This team may average 80-85 points a game in conference play.

Gerry Butler 7 years, 12 months ago

like has bee stated a couple of times, and with which I agree totally, there is NO leader on this team, and I certainly hope nobody tries to suggest that Andrew is the leader of this team, uh I don't think so, not at this point anyways, same problems we have been havin really really bad boxing out getting defensive rebounds, getting beat off the dribble drive, defense breaking down, defensive intensity missing, poor outside shooting, we will CONTINUE to see ZONES until we prove we can knock down outside shots more then say 1 out of every four or five times, that's not gonna cut it. again if you watch when we play against the zone as coach self says and said in one of the articles today when we playin the ball sticks to much not moving like past teams. ya Andrew looked good in the 2nd half, BU the game is 40 minutes not 20 joel is still looking better, but where has perry gone, wayne had a terrible night, but yet like was said for us to play that poorly in the 1st half and then end up being the final that it was, not to bad , they will get better, its called GROWIN PAINS now come on we knew they were gonna take some whoopins early, but hey better days ahead. GO HAWKS

Rodney Crain 7 years, 12 months ago

We played down to our experience level. It was tough to watch a Kansas team play that poorly in a spotlight game like that. Considering the start of the game the level of that collapse was surprising.

There are two ways this goes, we hit our ceiling and become a very good team at the end of the year, or the losses pile up to the point this team never gets over the hill it is creating.

Very impressed with Wiggins' response last night. Its one thing to have the talent to do it, but he showed big time fight there. The elite players hate to lose more than they like to win. That was an elite response last night.

Mike Riches 7 years, 12 months ago

I have been so impressed with Wiggins, especially lately. I don't agree with everything Dick Vitale says, but I do agree, THIS KID IS SPECIAL! I love his desire and effort to learn Self's system and play within it, as he could easily realize he's the best player on the floor, ignore the system and just play. I see him becoming more and more comfortable playing within Self's system each game. At least for me, it's not to the point where I expect great things to happen every time he touches the ball, but it's getting there. The more confident he becomes the scarier this team will be and I think last night had to give him a big boost.

Benz Junque 7 years, 12 months ago

As aggressive as Wiggins was to take over at the end of the game is what KU needs from him during larger stretches of every game. He has that ability; sometimes he stands still on offense and waits and watches.

Robert Brock 7 years, 12 months ago

Frank Mason has a lot of heart but he had a terrible game. Zero assists and five turnovers from your starting point guard is not what you want. He needs to learn the position and right quick - the season has a long ways to go, but it is not going to get any easier (except in Manhattan :)

Tony Bandle 7 years, 12 months ago



Posters going after each other's throats [politely, of course], long diatrabes reaching "mini Jaybate" lengths, point and counterpoint ["Jane you ignorant slut" ala SNL Glory Days - coming down a little hard on Suzi, huh guys??]. Today's postings are bringing tears of joy to my eyes remembering the good old days of freedom of speech!!!

2] This team is like watching a new born colt trying to walk..try and fall, try, wobble and fall, try, stand up, start, wobble and fall. Someday, that colt becomes a thoroughbred. EVERYBODY CHILL OUT!!!!

3] Amongst the ruins of last night were flashes of brilliance, like lightning bolts of potential on the horizon. Brannen Greene IS on this team, Andrew Wiggins IS realizing he can take over a game, Jo Jo IS knowing he can do better...on and on.

4] By March, this team will as dangerous as any team in enjoy the ride, bumps and all!!!

Ron Prichard 7 years, 12 months ago

Oakville, you stole all my thoughts and did it in 2000 less characters than I did. My hat is off to you, sir.

Lance Cheney 7 years, 12 months ago

Here's what I don't get (I just noticed this). Why is it when Bill runs his players down, saying they played like crap, etc, nobody says anything. But when Charlie Weis does it, he's an arrogant a-hole who can't accept responsibility for his own bad coaching. I know the answer, I just think it's a stupid double-standard that illustrates the fair-weatherness of KU fans.

Steve Kubler 7 years, 12 months ago

Running down his players? How about being honest?? "I don't think it was lack of effort, just everything went wrong that could' , "we were awful after that", "We are not a real skilled team yet. We pass the ball miserably. We don’t pass the ball well at all.”

Those comments are not running down players, they are stating facts. I have seldom seen Self say anything seriously negative about an individual player and when he has it was done in a factual manner. I do not pay any attention to football so don't have knowledge Weis's behavior. But for a coach Self does a pretty good job or managing his public comments.

Lance Cheney 7 years, 12 months ago

Okay, this is a good example. When Self does it, he's just "being honest." When Weis says, "we didn't do a good job of tackling, our receivers dropped balls," etc, he's blaming the players. Of course he's putting it on the players, they're the ones making the mistakes! Just like what Bill does. Yes, they're both being honest, and frankly, I love it. The players need to be held accountable for their mistakes.

Mike Adams 7 years, 12 months ago

Self has earned the right and benefit of the doubt, Weis has done NOTHING. Until he wins and actually makes some of his players better he will continue to get blasted for these type of comments, it's part of life. In looking at the effort/results of the football team many naturally assume he is giving less than 100% when he earns millions of dollars, I don't give 'part time effort' empl;oyees the benefit of the doubt. Nobody cares that he happened to be around when Tom Brady was in NE, or that he worked with Matt Cassell. He is getting paid to do a job at KU and has produced absolutely nothing. He can't even coach a QB/Offense anymore, he has mailed it in, will retire soon, has little character.

Len Shaffer 7 years, 12 months ago

Mike, that's utterly ridiculous.

You can say what you want about Weis's lack of results and how poorly KU has played, and his ability to coach offense and QBs deserves to be questioned. But you have NO basis on which to question his work ethic and desire. It doesn't even make sense: he knows this is his last opportunity to prove himself as a head coach; if he's really just mailing it in and not giving a full effort, you're saying that he cares nothing about his reputation and legacy. Do you really believe that???

Gerry Butler 7 years, 12 months ago

you are soooooo far off base its really weird, Charlie can take the time and teach, and teach, and teach, and teach, and practice and practice. BOTTOM LINE there buddy is he can't get out on the field and make the plays happen, the PLAYERS have to do that. really? do you realize how pathetic you sound? get real. coach weis can't do that tats the offensive lines job, he can't open the holes for he running backs, that's the offensive lines job. they have to produce, he can show, and teach, and practice ALL DAY bottom line its the players that has to get it done on the field, not coach weis, I bet your one of those chumps that wanted coach MARK out too huh, because he was tuff on the silver spooned babies too huh? oh that's my baby you can't say that to my baby. you can't do that to my baby, hey I got a idea lets switch coaches AGAIN ya that we we should do., real stability there doing that huh? lets just switch coaches every 2 or 3 yrs

Benz Junque 7 years, 12 months ago

Self says "We stink right now but we're goona get better" and then he goes out and makes them better.

Weis says "We stink" and he never does anything to make it better.

Self has shown that he can actually coach his kids to stop playing like crap. Weis hasn't shown any ability to do that.

Lance Cheney 7 years, 12 months ago

I'm not saying Weis is a better coach, I just don't like when people bag on Weis for telling it like it is, even if it means calling out his players.

Yolanda Gay 7 years, 12 months ago

I just don't see any signs of improvement in any player except maybe Wiggins and Embiid. We have no outside shooters. Did these recruits shoot the ball in high school. Learning to play defense I understand. But players had to shoot the ball in high school. Where is Selden? Why did we get Black? People say we will get better; proof for me is steady improvement each game. I don't see it.

Yes, we will see zone the rest of the year. We have NO zone busters.

We only have 4 games until we start conference play. The team I saw in the Bahamas, and against Colorado and Florida won't get it. Unless there is major improvement, this team will not beat the likes of Baylor, Okie St, and Iowa St for sure. We have 6 wins so far. Reaching the 'magic 20' will be a struggle this year.

Benz Junque 7 years, 12 months ago

Eh, KU went 8-19 (42%) from three last night and shot 43% overall compared to just 37% for Florida. Perhaps there was a problem with a few too many turnovers?!?

the vast majority of those turnovers happened before KU even got around to taking a shot. That doesn't mean that we suck at shooting, it means we suck at handling the ball, making good decisions on passing and helping out teammates who are in trouble. I'd bet half of those turnovers would have been eliminated if the person receiving the pass would have simply been moving towards the passer.

Len Shaffer 7 years, 12 months ago

Oh please. That's the same kind of crap that I saw on this site when KU started the 2001-2002 season 3-3. They had a poll, and 75% of respondents said that KU wouldn't even make it to the NIT!!! (In case you don't recall what happened that year, let me refresh your memory: a perfect 16-0 in the Big XII, and on to the Final Four.) (And yes, I realize that that was under Roy Williams, but the principle is still the same.)

Reaching 20 will be a struggle??? Do you really believe that??? Have you been watching the same Bill Self that I have over the years??? Do you think that he has suddenly forgotten how to coach? They may not get to 30 wins this year, but they will easily pass 20 and make the tournament again.

Walter Bridges 7 years, 12 months ago

All good points Yolanda but Ron Prichard says it best.. Patients (spelling?) and lots of it. At some point Greene will start hitting with consistency as well Connor Frankamp.

Statistically,AW3 is already doing well shooting wise. Shooting 39% (team-high) or 7/18. Ironically, seems as though Self doesn't want to play him for whatever reason. I see a possible transfer in the near future.

Ron Prichard 7 years, 12 months ago

My thoughts on the game in list format (ala Oakville, but not as clever):

  1. Self's pre-season comment that Tharpe needs to be this team's MVP is right on the money. This team needs someone to step in and calm them down when things get crazy or go bad. They need someone to restore order when they get out of sync. They need someone who has "been there, done that." That player has to be Tharpe. The only other possibility is Ellis, and I don't think he has the outgoing persona to be that guy. Also, Tharpe typically has the ball in his hands on every possession at least once. We really need for him to take some ownership of the team.

  2. Self is starting to pull Greene out of the dog house. It is exactly the same thing he has done with so many players in the past. Tear them down and then build them up. Did you notice how hard Greene played last night? He wasn't perfect, but he played with energy. Also, when he made mistakes, you could see Self's frustration, but he didn't pull him and he didn't yell at him. In the past he was yanked immediately for what may have been a minor offense. Last night Self called him over and taught him what to do, how to react, but left him in the game. Also, in his post game comments, he complimented Green's effort. I think you will see much more of Greene in coming weeks. I wonder if anyone else noticed this last night?

  3. Clearly, a message was being sent to Selden. Maybe he is Self's next project. He wasn't good when he was in the game, but I was absolutely amazed he only saw one minute in the second half. Self typically doesn't do that to his starters. A sub, yes. A starter, no.

  4. It seems like Ellis gets hammered down low and loses the ball on more "no calls" than any post player I have seen. I wonder if this is his fault for not being stronger or if the calls truly have gone against him (I am biased, you know).

  5. Self got more teaching points out of this game than any in the last two years. I could be wrong, but I think this is exactly the kind of game this team will need to be able to compete on the road in league play and in March. The best part about it is that we played HORRIBLY and had a chance to cut it to four when Greene stole the ball and Wiggins was hammered going to the basket. A horrible no call gave it to Florida, but KU was making it a game. Considering we had 24 turnovers, that is nothing short of amazing.


Robert Brock 7 years, 12 months ago

Tharpe's shortcomings stem from his problems on defense, not offense. How many times does he go under a screen and get snagged? If he could get better at attacking screens and learn to stay in front of his opponent, he would probably return as the starting point guard.

Kye Clark 7 years, 12 months ago

Without re-watching the game here's a few thoughts:

  • As I stated after the CU game, our biggest problem is that we can't attack the zone. It was suggested that if our outside shooting was better teams will abandon the zone and that would solve the problem. Last night we saw that wasn't the case. KU came out and hit two 3s en route to their 10-3 lead. That didn't deter Florida from sticking with it, and eventually embarrassing our squad into committing ridiculous amounts of turnovers. For the game we shot good from the outside, so that wasn't the problem. Our perimeter starters, all whose strengths lend more to slashing/driving than outside shooting, can't seem to figure it out. They isn't any consistent dribble penetration, no feeding the high post, nothing. So zone offense still our biggest weaknesses, as was the case following the CU game, and what's really disappointing is there was virtually no improvement from one game to the next.

  • Black. At this point, he deserves no minutes. He's already lost his starting spot, and I would argue that both Traylor & Lucas are better options at this point. Black should only be subbed in emergency injury/foul trouble scenarios. He was brought in to be the beef and keep Perry & Embiid from getting knocked around down low. Hasn't really panned out that way. Of course, you can't foul early & often in every game and have any expectations of filling that role.

  • Speaking of Traylor, one of the few bright spots IMO. Excellent job rebounding (9 in 17 minutes), and his driving post move was NICE! He almost always plays with energy, and he's a proficient shot blocker for his size.

Ron Prichard 7 years, 12 months ago

(part 2...jeez, I feel like Jaybate...)

  1. I hope, HOPE, Wiggins realizes he needs to be the man for the entire game now. It wasn't the fact that he hit a bunch of threes late that gives me hope. It's that he wanted the ball in a big way down the strech. He wanted to take every shot, and I think you saw his competitiveness come out for the first time since the Duke game. If he realizes we need him to be that guy the entire game, every game, watch out.

I think the reason I'm not as upset as I have been after other losses is that I see Self throwing this team to the wolves so he can get their attention and get them battle tested. Yes, he wants to win, but he's preparing them for something bigger than just one game. He's molding, and I think last night will be a great opportunity for him to work some of his typical magic. I may be mistaken, but I look for KU to come out and play well on Saturday.

Kye Clark 7 years, 12 months ago

(cont.) - Mason. Might it be time to re-think the experiment of him starting? I'm still a believer that he is better than Tharpe, but something just tells me that he is better suited to come off the bench as a spark plug right now as opposed to trying to lead the offense. At the very least, I don't think it can be argued that Mason has looked his best coming off the bench and often when he is on the court with Tharpe at the same time. During halftime the studio crew pointed to one play which they said embodied the first half. Loose ball on the court, Gator player diving for the ball, KU player standing there watching. That player was Mason. That lack of energy & hustle is unacceptable. Perhaps returning to his back-up role, reducing his minutes a bit, and taking the starting PG duties from him would restore some of his spark.

  • Ellis. Where is the guy that carried us for much of the Duke game? After that performance, we were all thinking "great, but now he's so good we'll probably lose him to the NBA after this year." I understand he's playing the post and doesn't have full control of when he touches the ball, but I kept waiting for him to right the ship during that horrendous 21-0 run last night and it never came. I was waiting for him to demand the ball, coming out to the perimeter if he had to. I kept waiting to see him catch it high and drive his way to the basket like we saw in the closing moments of the CU game.

  • Selden. What does he do well that justifies starting? He's got the look of a great player, and when things are going well he seems to fit in and contribute. But when things are in disarray he seems to offer nothing. He's not a good outside shooter and he isn't creating his own shot, so at this point I'm actually going to officially lobby for Greene to get the start and a large chunk of Selden's minutes. Either Greene or AW3, but after last night it at least appears that Self has deemed Greene the winner of the 3 player battle royale for minutes between those two and Frankamp.

  • Wiggins. Like Vitale was saying last night, he needs to be more of the alpha on this team. Great performance late, but he can't wait to flip that switch. It needs to be a mentality from the opening tip.

Still confident this team will get it figured out, but the zone issues need to be rectified immediately.

Rich Hetherington 7 years, 12 months ago

Better how? I hate to keep stirring the debate Mason vs Tharpe, but what has Mason done for everyone to think he's "better" than Tharpe. I think he has a slight edge defensively, which is important, but I don't think it gains enough to warrant calling him better than Tharpe. Tharpe is without question, a better scorer (both shooting the ball and when driving into the lane) and a much better passer (and it's not even close). Given that's what I want from a PG, I think Tharpe is still quite a ways ahead of Mason over-all. Bill Self on the other hand values defense, so I have no problem with him starting Mason for that reason, but even he probably doesn't think Mason is a better all around player than Tharpe.

Kye Clark 7 years, 12 months ago

You say "Tharpe is without question, a better scorer (both shooting the ball and when driving into the lane)..."

I disagree. First, I would argue the sample size is too small to gauge Mason's shooting ability, but I wouldn't automatically hand that torch to Tharpe. As for driving into the lane, I think Mason is leaps and bounds better than Tharpe at getting there. Sure Tharpe may be a slightly better finisher (and right now it is slight), but what good does that do if he can't figure out how to get in there but once per game? Mason has the ability to get into the lane almost at will. Sherron was the same way. Tyshawn was the same way. Tharpe is not. He is more like EJ, in that every once in awhile he'll pick his spot, but the defense has to give it to him.

So dribble drive penetration. That's how he's better, and that's one of the things I like from a point guard. Getting into the lane makes things happen. It creates scoring opportunities, both directly & indirectly. And honestly I think that's why Self likes him, for the same reasons he liked Sherron & Tyshawn, and that's probably why he's starting.

Rich Hetherington 7 years, 12 months ago

I'm really sorry, because frankly I hate bantering with fellow Jayhawks and Jayhawks fans, but you're just gonna have to let slide how I feel about Mason. Yes, I think Tharpe is a better finisher... he may not get to the rim as often as you'd like, but when he does, his shots fall. To say Mason has the ability to get into the lane at will and then compare him to Sherron and Tyshawn is crazy to me. I mean, yes Mason drives into the lane a lot, but I have yet to see him finish the way either of them did. He doesn't seem to finish unless it's an uncontested break away (and I'll give you that those have looked nice). Otherwise he just sort of throws it up, rareley coming close to it going in, and since he wasn't able to draw fouls this last game, it looked aweful. You'd never see such careless drives from Sherron, or even Tyshawn for that matter, and that is saying a LOT! Again, to each their own, but to me, we need to come up with a plan of attack that does not involve Mason driving into the lane unless it's to pass to a big that's already inside or to kick it back out to an open man on the perimeter. Seldon, Wiggins, Tharpe and even Traylor driving to shoot, sure, but use Mason as a great defender, and figure out some ways for him to pass the ball when he drives into the lane... I just really don't want him taking too many shots in there (or on the perimeter for that matter).

Ryan Zimmerman 7 years, 12 months ago

The first half was obviously abysmal, but when Greene poked away the inbounds pass to Wiggins for the steal under our basket with under 3 minutes to play, Wiggins got absolutely mugged by two Florida guys-- in the face! No foul. That would have given us the ball back down by 5 and a chance to make it a one possession game. Clawed our way back and for that to be a no-call was insane. Not saying that determined the game due to how off they were initially, but still, pivotal moment blown by the refs

Rich Hetherington 7 years, 12 months ago

That was ridiculous. 2nd game in a row there was a no-foul with Wiggins driving, followed by a tick-tacky foul the other way! Ugh!!!

Benz Junque 7 years, 12 months ago

So here is my theory that I am going to roll with to try to keep a positive attitude: this brutal non-conference schedule will help out Kansas in the long run because it has moved their reality slap in the face to this early in the year.

Last year's team had a number of easy games in the non-con in between their two tough games (Mich. St. and Ohio St.). They came out of non-con looking and feeling pretty invincible. They hit conference season and kept winning, but it was on a fluky bank shot three vs. Iowa State and then some really terrible offensive performances against Texas Tech, Baylor, Texas, KSU, OU and West Virginia. My gut feel is that they didn't take their issues very seriously because hey, they're still "finding ways to win". Ugh. then Okie State punched them in the face in AFH. they swore they were going to be "more focused" but they foolowed it up with two of the worst games in KU history in losing @ TCU and OU.

This was in mid-February, just five weeks before the end of the season. they were still able to recover and win the conference and be major contenders for a run at the Final Four.

I am HOPING that the run this team is having now is their punch in the face that they didn't get last year until early February. They haven't had the typical easy games early in the year to give themselves the false sense that any mistakes they are making are OK because they are still winning despite them. You can't make mistakes like this and beat good teams and that is all KU has left in their non-con. My hope is that by the end of non-con they will have their eyes wide open about what needs to be done and they will hit the ground running for Big 12 season.


Walter Bridges 7 years, 12 months ago

Not bad.. My solution has been to record the game first and then watch it later after hearing how well or how badly they played.

That was one of the worst first halfs that I've seen Kansas play since before Larry Brown. Rory owns the worst second-half after losing a 20 point lead and the game 91-74 at Allen Fieldhouse in 2003. I don't need sitting through another such debacle.

If we start playing well again, then I'll go back to watching live.

Yonatan Negash 7 years, 12 months ago

The biggest letdown this season thus far is the lack of leadership Naadir Tharpe has shown

I don't know about you but I had a lot of expectations from Tharpe this year May be I set myself up for having so much confidence in Tharpe.

In no way shape or form, should we expect freshmen to lead Kansas in scoring, rebounding, and expect them be the vocal leaders on the court (in my opinion harpe, Ellis and Black should be huddling up the team on as/if needed basis to settle them down some).

In my opionion, Naadir is/was the floor general and he needed to be that guy. The guy that brings the players together during panic moments and settles everyone down.

Will the freshmen figure it out themselves? Yes, I guess they'll have to and they will.

No way will I place any of the blame Kansas is having on any of the freshmen.

If you watch the 8 games Naadir has played, most of the time he's passed up a lot of shots.

Why is that important you ask? By taking the damn shot, he can take the pressure off of the freshmen.

I’m really not too worried about the team we have, we’ll be fine come tournament time. But the veterans we have can make this a lot easier than it has been.

Benz Junque 7 years, 12 months ago

It only takes pressure off the freshmen if he MAKES the shots. Otherwise it puts even more on them because they have a bigger hole to dig out of. Tharpe is not a great shooter. We have better guys to do that. He just needs to take better care of the ball and be more aggressive in getting his teammates moving to spots where they can get good shots.

Yonatan Negash 7 years, 12 months ago

Agreed. I'd much rather him take the shot than create a turnover. I realize taking a shot has a 50/50 chance going in, I'd rather take those chances.

Benz Junque 7 years, 12 months ago

I wish Tharpe was shooting 50/50. If he was we wouldn't be having this conversation. He needs to do a better job of passing into the post, where Self's players have typically shot a MUCH better rate than 50%.

Jack Jones 7 years, 12 months ago

Actually, Mike (and others) ~ You are spot on, except that it won't be two days, but more like 2 HOURS (if that long) before no one cares what is posted on this site. It seems that far too often it's primary purpose is to provide a place for the terminally whiners to vent their "expert analysis". My God, these are FRESHMAN with 9 games of high level D-1 basketball experience ~ plus Sophomores and a Junior, none of which have significant on-court game time. This team has unbelievable individual basketball talent ~ and with the proven best Coach in developing players ~ we will become a very, very good TEAM. Whether that will translate to another Big 12 Championship, or beyond, is predictably unknown. But, we will be as competitive as anyone else in the conference ~ you can bank that. Relax, all you boo birds (I know you can't ~ it's genetic) ~ there is absolutely nothing positive in bad-mouthing the team or individual players ~ (although you can also bank the fact that the players care even less about what is posted here)

Benz Junque 7 years, 12 months ago

No one is posting here thinking that the players actually see it. This is our place to vent and cheer and talk KU basketball. I thoroughly appreciate hearing different points of view, even ones I disagree with. It helps to see the game through other people's eyes sometimes.

Jeff Kilgore 7 years, 12 months ago

Will we be able to play under pressure and figure out zone defenses? One good thing about last night is that we weren't in terrible foul trouble. That's a really good sign. As far as leadership is concerned, it's point black obvious to me that 18 year olds aren't 22 and 23 year olds and talent doesn't overcome that in November and December. I'm hoping and believing that the best is yet to come, but there are no guarantees and that itself is what makes the whole thing worth watching.

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