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Wednesday, May 25, 2011

Recruiting hot topic for KU coach Bill Self

Kansas head coach Bill Self introduces members of his staff during the KU men's basketball banquet Monday, April 11, 2011 at the Holiday Inn Lawrence.

Kansas head coach Bill Self introduces members of his staff during the KU men's basketball banquet Monday, April 11, 2011 at the Holiday Inn Lawrence.

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Kansas University basketball coach Bill Self, who for eight years has been an active member of the Lawrence community, meets his fair share of townspeople almost every day.

Many aren’t shy about asking him about a part of his job that doesn’t involve coaching.

That’d be recruiting.

“I’d say it’s a good topic of conversation. Recruiting is like a sport in itself,” Self said Tuesday. “Yesterday, probably three or four people at least asked me, ‘Hey what’s the latest?’ Or this or that. All that does is tell me people around here care.”

Fans currently want to know the status of No. 10-rated prospect DeAndre Daniels, who let last Wednesday’s final day of the signing period pass without choosing KU, Texas or Oregon.

Truth be known, nobody knows when the 6-8 forward from IMG Academies in Bradenton, Fla., will select a school.

“In a perfect world, you don’t want to have to sign kids late,” said Self, who did not discuss Daniels specifically Tuesday in accordance with NCAA rules.

“But let’s just call it like it is. We felt like we were going to get Ben McLemore (as far back as) last year.”

Rivals.com’s No. 34-rated player signed with KU in April after Ben finally convinced his mom, a Missouri fan, that KU was the place to be. KU fans may have sweated that one out, the coaches not so much.

“The steal of the group, Naadir (Tharpe, No. 92 rated player from Worcester, Mass.) jumped on board early (signing in November),” Self said of the point guard.

“With the (Morris) twins, although we thought we could possibly lose two, we thought the percentage play was we’d lose one. Their both leaving (for NBA) kind of left us scrambling a little bit. Fortunately we were able to sign a couple good kids late (forwards Braeden Anderson, Jamari Traylor) that we wouldn’t have recruited early because we wouldn’t have known of their availability.”

So KU’s class of 2011 currently stands at four and could grow to five.

“We hope to still get one more. If we are able to do so, I’d rank our class up there as a big success,” Self said. “It’s just taken a long time to do so.”

With KU losing much-publicized recruiting battles for the likes of Harrison Barnes, Josiah Turner, Michael Snaer, Terrence Jones, Daniel Orton, LeBryan Nash, Angelo Chol and Trevor Lacey the last two years, there’s been a perception KU has struggled in recruiting.

Self, who has directed KU to seven straight conference titles as well as the 2008 national title, does not necessarily agree.

After all, last year he signed the country’s No. 1 recruit in Josh Selby, he has a budding star in McLemore and still might land Daniels.

“We’ve gotten our fair share of guys, no question, but it’s fair to say we missed out on a couple guys early this year and a couple guys last year. So did Duke, Michigan State, Connecticut, Texas. That’s the way it is for everybody,” Self said.

“Everybody misses. We have not got some guys we thought we were in great shape with. The thing about it, other people work hard, too. That’s recruiting.

“The tendency is with recruiting, when you don’t get a guy, people say somebody cheated or ‘we didn’t want ’em anymore.’ That hasn’t been the case. These respective kids have picked different schools for different reasons. We certainly respect that. We’re not crazy about it, but we respect it. It’s just part of the business.”

And one other thing about recruiting ...

“If you set your goals pretty high, you probably will be told ‘no’ more than ‘yes,’” Self said, adding that he and his staff will continue to target the best high school players in the country.

He said he has a lot to sell at tradition-rich KU, a place he’s piled up 237 wins against 46 losses (.837) in eight campaigns.

“We love it here. Certainly we’ve doubled more than anywhere else we’ve been,” said Self, who coached three years at Illinois, three at Tulsa and four at Oral Roberts. “Where do you go from Kansas? It’s such a good job. To me this is as good as it gets in college basketball.”

If he gets sick of recruiting — and Self said Tuesday he still enjoys most parts of recruiting — there’s always the NBA.

“I don’t know,” Self said, asked if he thinks he’ll ever coach in the pros. “I wouldn’t think so, but I learned through past experiences never to say never. I’m not interested in that right now at all. I’m a college guy. I think my job at Kansas is better than some of the jobs in the NBA. I love it here. I can’t envision me being anywhere else right now. I am not interested in any other job. There’s not many places like this.”

Self — he said he really likes new athletic director Sheahon Zenger — ”I think he’s going to be great” — right now is focusing on adding another piece in recruiting then try for league title No. 8 in a row.

“I am real excited about the challenge of next year, trying to figure out a way to lose seven guys and not take a step backward at all. That’s my challenge right now that I’m going to enjoy.”

Comments

Larry Evans 4 years, 3 months ago

Bill Self has to re-evaluate Bill Self why he can't close the deal on recruits. What is he saying that is different than the other schools. He has lost out on highly rated midwest recruits to schools out east and now the Ellis kid is looking around and making comments about how he likes Duke. So If Self loses out on him..Then something is wrong what Self is telling these players that doesn't appeal with them.

theajayhawk 4 years, 3 months ago

We all (including you) should evaluate ourselves before commenting on someone's else job. We don't know what is going on in these cases, someone might be getting paid off, or there could be a million other reasons. And we certainly don't know better than HCBS in this regard.

jhox 4 years, 3 months ago

Recruiting doesn't take place in a vacuum. One reason we've been losing out on guys, is because we've had a lot of players stay 3 or 4 years. Not many kids are willing to come in and sit on the bench behind a 3 or 4 year player. If the kid is highly rated, they typically want to go somewhere where they can star immediately.

Also, the midwest is not for everyone. Most of us who choose to live here, love it here, but kids from the coasts or the South, may not like the idea of cold midwestern winters, or they may not want to leave the bright lights of the big cities they grow up in. The Midwest is not always going to be an easy sale.

Then you have to look at what other coaches are doing. Does anyone really believe Slick Cal isn't pulling something illegal in Lexington? Does this mean Self should be using similar tactics and risk getting into trouble with the NCAA?

Next year will be a defining year for KU recruiting. We're going to be losing a lot of guys, which should help Self sell our program to top players. We may or may not get Ellis. He may want to experience living in a different part of the country. That doesn't mean Self will have done something wrong. Regardless of whether we get Ellis or not, look for next year's class to be a banner one for KU. The playing time we'll have to offer will be an easy sale.

tdub 4 years, 3 months ago

Let's temper our expectations for next year, too. We're only losing Taylor and possibly Robinson. We've already got our big in Peters, so if we can lock up Ellis that will about do it for 2012.

Mel Clare 4 years, 3 months ago

Really? Look at the kids in Duke or Carolinas or Michigan States or UCLA's back yard that go somewhere else. I dont think anything is wrong with Self or his coaches on recruiting..............NO school gets them all. Besides.......KU seems to win ALOT with whom they do get! The NCAA is about being lucky enough to win 6 in a row..............Ohio State, Duke AND KU found that out...........enough said. He is telling these spoile d kids that they have to Earn PLAYING TIME............jeez, I gotta work hard? I gotta study? I gotta go to the weight room? THAT is why some of these guys dont want KU.............they have no WANT TO............they only want a free ride to the next level, most of them dont care if they ever graduate............with Self and KU it is THE most important thing........

dhortens 4 years, 3 months ago

I agree sniper, we want kids that want to be here and are not looking for starting spots handed to them. What's wrong with earning your spot??

Mike Bratisax 4 years, 3 months ago

I'd be surprised if any OADs went to class after deciding to go pro.

yates33333 4 years, 3 months ago

The way to judge Bill Self is by end of the year results and not by recruiting. He's a winner. His only shortcoming as I see it is getting his teams ready to play second tier clubs in the national tournament. But, to be honest I don't know that he does anything wrong in that respect. His record ought to and for me does speak for itself. Good job Coach Self. KU needs you.

jaybate 4 years, 3 months ago

Self also looks damned good in a light suit! :-)

Tony Bandle 4 years, 3 months ago

His toupee blends well with the lighter spectrum. My guess is he is colorized, he would be designated an "Autumn". You know, browns and greens with light tans, beiges and fabric pattern blends. :)

nuleafjhawk 4 years, 3 months ago

Hmmmmm. Oak, you seem to know waaaaaaay too much about this kind of thing.................

Funhawk 4 years, 3 months ago

One of William Shatner's toupees was being sold on ebay....just an idea.

Andy Tweedy 4 years, 3 months ago

Maybe you weren't like a lot of 18-year-old kids. I went to high school in Omaha, and while I ended up in Kansas, I couldn't wait to get out of the midwest. It's exciting to get out and see the rest of the country, and for these kids it's made easy with the lure of a full ride scholarship to a school that would normally cost tons of money if you don't live there. I don't blame these kids for one minute to at least explore their options that are not Kansas!

Jacobpaul81 4 years, 3 months ago

Do I really have to post the numbers again? Anyone disappointed in KU's recruiting needs shakabuku.

Since 2008:

McDonald's All Americans: Selby & Henry

Rivals Ratings::

1 - Josh Selby - 2010

8 - Xavier Henry - 2009

24 - Elijah Johnson - 2009

29 - Marcus Morris - 2008

31 - Thomas Robinson - 2009

34 - Ben McLemore - 2011

49 - Markieff Morris - 2008

70 - Travis Releford - 2008

77 - Tyshawn Taylor - 2008

92 - Naadir Thorpe - 2011

120 - Royce Woolridge - 2010

124 - Tyrone Appleton -2008

141 - Jamari Traylor - 2011

149 - Quintrell Thomas - 2008

Braeden Anderson - Unranked Mario Little - Unranked

Pre-2008:

Mcdonalds All Americans: Giddens, Padgett, Downs, Chalmers, Wright, Aldrich, Collins <- Note that only 2 of them played a signifigant role in our national title run.

12 - Mario Chalmers - 2005

13 - Brandon Rush - 2005

16 - Darell Arthur - 2006

21 - Sherron Collins - 2006

25 - Roderick Stewart - 2003

27 - Russell Robinson - 2004

30 - Cole Aldrich - 2007

34 - Sasha Kaun - 2004

54 - Darnell Jackson - 2004

109 - Tyrel Reed - 2007

Brady Morningstar - unranked Jeremy Case - unranked

Left before title:

7 - David Padgett - 2003

8 - Julian Wright - 2005

19 - JR Giddens - 2003

28 - Micah Downs - 2005

56 - Omar Wilkes - 2003

62 - CJ Giles -2004

65 - Alex Galindo - 2004

Nick Bahe - unranked

Ben Simonett 4 years, 3 months ago

thank you for posting numbers, heres what they tell you:

average ranking of rivals rated recruit before 2008: 34.1

average rankings of rivals rated recruited after 2008: 67.79

if thats not a decline in recruiting prowess, what is?

John Boyle 4 years, 3 months ago

Overrated by Rivals prior to 2008

25 Roderick Stewart

7 David Padgett

19 JR Giddens

28 Micah Downs

Jacobpaul81 4 years, 3 months ago

Also forgot Jeff Withey #36 - another over rated recruit.

Now, lets look at the top 5 from the last 3 seasons.

2008- NO NCAA Championships

1 - B.J. Mullens - Ohio State - One and Done

2 - Jrue Holiday - UCLA - One and Done

3 - DeMar DeRozan - USC - One and Done

4 - Brandon Jennings - No College

5 - Scotty Hopson - Tenn - 3 year player, entering draft

2009- NO NCAA Championships

1 - John Wall - UK - One and Done

2 - Demarcus Cousins - UK - One and Done

3 - Derrick Favors - Arizona - One and Done

4 - Avery Bradley - Texas -One and Done

5 - John Henson - UNC - Entering Jr. year - 20 min a game, 12 pts.

2010 - NO NCAA Championship

1 - Josh Selby - KS - One and Done

2 - Harrison Barnes - UNC - returning for sophmore year.

3 - Enes Kanter - UK - Ruled Ineligible

4 - Kyrie Irving - Duke - One and Done

5 - Jared Sullinger - Ohio State - Returning Naismith Player of the Year

So who gives a rats --- what a player's rating is if the team that is built can play together?

bgthemanofsteel 4 years, 3 months ago

your numbers are skewed due to the fact that there are 4 more recruits in the after 2008 category than the before 2008. to gain a more accurate picture, drop the bottom 4 from the after 2008 category. after 2008: 41.5 before 2008 34.1

not much of a drop off.

Sam Constance 4 years, 3 months ago

So you actually believe that Self won a national title and inexplicably stopped being able to recruit?

Does that really make a damn bit of sense to you?

Maybe the issue is that the ranking services are inherently unpredictable and fluctuate in terms of accuracy.

In the 2011 class alone, over half of the players' rankings vary by at least 20 spots between ESPN and Rivals. And a fourth of the list varies by 30 or more spots. It's not so surprising to me that those rankings might be wildly inconsistent from year to year as well.

I've mentioned this before, but a great deal of those rankings' individual numbers are determined early on, when the recruits play in these "all-star" games. Recruits are placed in front of and behind each other based on how they perform in these SINGLE GAMES where other recruits are also playing. Those preliminary rankings lay the groundwork from whence subsequent rankings will be determined (similar to how the preseason team rankings play a big role in where teams end up in the rankings).

I'm no statistician, but I do understand that using individual games as such a big part of the ranking process--all because it just happens to be a game where multiple top recruits are playing simultaneously--is fundamentally flawed.

On average, recruits in the top 50 are going to be better than the recruits in spots 51-100, but phenomena like I've listed above are what convince me that ranking numbers are more guesswork than science, and why I therefore put 1,000 times more stock in SEASON results than recruiting class ranking results when it comes to evaluating success.

Mike Bratisax 4 years, 3 months ago

Pretty hard to argue when the numbers are that far apart. I do think HCBS has gained some insight with experience to judge which type of player will succeed in his style of basketball that the rankings will not show. Does anybody think Self would still go after a Micah Downs? But that only accounts for a small part of the divergence.

baldwinjhawk 4 years, 3 months ago

UMMMM remember we won a ton of games this year with a couple of white boys from Kansas that not too many people wanted..just sayin

KU_Phogified 4 years, 3 months ago

Pibballin: you are among the uninitiated when it comes to the landscape of college basketball recruiting. Obviously, since your mind is made-up that Coach Self cannot close, you didn't comprehend his comments in the above article; how blind of you! Can't close. LOL at internet recruiting gurus like you, who don't know the first thing about recruiting, yet pop off on message boards about what an established, great college coach, can/cannot do as far as recruiting is concerned.
Do yourself a favor, actually read and comprehend (if you can) Self's comments in the article, do some geographic research pertaining to WHERE Lawrence is, and try to develop some kind of understanding of the dynamics of KU/NBA draft potential as it pertains to signing kids early.

Self can't close. Yeah, he's really doing a poor job, winning the league 7 straight times. Gimme a break.

hawkmeister 4 years, 3 months ago

This comment was removed by the site staff for violation of the usage agreement.

odc213 4 years, 3 months ago

pig ballin is a TROLL. His team or his alma mater (if he has one) has such a poor b-ball team that he gets his kicks putting down his rivals.

jayhawks25 4 years, 3 months ago

We'll be fine. Look at all the players Bill Self has gotten and really turned them into players.

kranny 4 years, 3 months ago

He has signed 8 McDs all-americans since 2005. Kentucky has signed 9 but all in the last 3 years by a coach who is under the gun again in regards to violations. NC has 18 but lost 3 to transfers, didn't make the tourney last year and is behind KU in all time wins. Bill is doing fine. I think the biggest disappointment is losing to VCU, Bradley, Bucknell, and Northern Iowa. The Hawks will get back there. He needs to nail down some NBA caliber guards who are clutch during crunch time. Can you say Marioooooooooo.

dylans 4 years, 3 months ago

So every girl you asked out went on to become your girlfriend? If so you played it way to safe and are most likely sitting at home alone. Recruits shoot down all but one school. It's just like the tournament there is only one winner. Quit crying about what could have been and root on the kids who did sign.

lee3022 4 years, 3 months ago

If you cannot respond to the arguments against your first post do you just skip down and start another attack?

You might see what you want to see. In March you can look back and see the results once again. The quest is not to convince the doubters and the haters. The quest is to win the league championship and then the national championship. The former have come in record numbers to KU. The latter have come far more than nearly all of the other schools.

actorman 4 years, 3 months ago

Pigballin, that is absolutely ridiculous!!! There has been nothing REMOTELY resembling a pattern of recruiting failures on Self's part. A pattern is not determined by a few examples; have you ever heard of the phrase "anecdotal evidence?" We're not talking about numbers on a sheet of paper here, we're talking about individuals, and individuals have a million different reasons for making the decisions they make. In fact Self's recruting record is just fine: just look at the number of McDonald's All-Americans he's gotten over the years. And even if he does happen to go through a stretch where he doesn't get as many highly ranked recruits as in the past, that still wouldn't necessarily mean it had anything to do with what he's saying to them. A person doesn't all of a sudden forget what to say to people when he's been successful for years.

actorman 4 years, 3 months ago

I didn't realize you'd posted another comment, pigballin. I was obviously responding to your first one.

As for your second comment, I think it's too early to tell how all the new players will fit in and what their strengths and weaknesses will be. When I say "new" players, I'm also including a lot of the returning players who haven't gotten enough minutes to show us what they can do. We also have no way of knowing how much players like Travis and EJ will improve in the offseason. Areas that you think will be weak may turn out to be just fine with the type of offseason improvements we've seen many times over the years.

jaybate 4 years, 3 months ago

PBall,

Stop gripping.

On the point, Self has TT, a seasoned senior PG that will hand cuff anyone he guards in the country, shoot 40% from trey, and put 12-15 pts on the board every game. TT is ready for a mega senior season.

At 2 guard, Self has EJ, a seasoned junior that is ready to blossum as a starter and has a 40% trey gun. Oh, and he will hold MUA on almost every guy he plays.

At 3, Self has Travis ready to kick ass and shoot 40% from trey, and Ben Mac, one of the countries top perimeter prospects and 45% trey gunner.

At 4, Self has Thomas Robinson, likely to be the best 4 in the country and a guy who can control the boards against anyone. He will hold MUA on almost everyone he plays against and be a first round draft choice after next season.

At 5, Self has a footer in Withey, who is likely to finally get it together as a scorer and shot blocker and finesse defender, while TRob dishes out the lumps.

And Self has Jamari, Braedon and Justin backing up the bigs.

And Self has a sleeper in Nadiir to backup TT and EJ, plus Conner and Christian Garrett in a pinch.

As Self said in the story, he needs one more guy to make this a super group.

He's in the hunt for Deandre.

And there are a couple other prospects that would could fill the bill.

KU is going to be very good next season.

The only question is: are they going to have the depth needed to get into the high 20s/low 30s, or are they going to be a body short and only get 23-26 wins.

The cupboard ain't bare.

yates33333 4 years, 3 months ago

As usual, great comment right on the money.

Dan Harris 4 years, 3 months ago

We should be really good with that starting 5 but foul trouble and or an injury or two would cripple us.

Andy Tweedy 4 years, 3 months ago

I hope you're right, but I'm not sure about all these 40% 3-point shooters. I'd be happy with one from this group...but I hope you're right! Otherwise, I agree, there is still a ton of potential in this group.

PhogAdvisory 4 years, 3 months ago

Love the attitude, jaybate!

Though here's how spoiled I am: You describe us as "going to be very good" next year, then follow it with "only" 23-26 wins, and my response is "That few?! Aw, sounds like we're gonna have an off season."

So. So. Spoiled.

It's great to be a Jayhawk.

P.S. Usually I can decode your acronyms well enough, but you lost me with "MUA." Explain, please?

Robin Smith 4 years, 3 months ago

great post Jaybate.

these young men are growing right before our eyes so whenever talent leaves the team there's always someone ready to grow up, step in and fill the spot, and it never fails that players who previously were backups and practice players end up being the starters we "won't be able to replace" the next year.

I'm very excited about the upcoming season. Tyshawn, TRob, Reley, and EJ are gonna be huge. I'm especially stoked to see a lot of both Releford and EJ.

TRob for AA.

Ben Simonett 4 years, 3 months ago

No way Taylor, Elijah, and Releford all shoot 40%+ from behind the arc next year.

Releford i can see, taylor and johnson have shown me nothing in the shooting department

Ashwin Rao 4 years, 3 months ago

We are doing quite well, thank you! I would rather have good players who improve all through their 4 years in college, and win us championship rather than OADs. The fun as a fan is by growing with the players and not by having a quick-fix every year!

nicka 4 years, 3 months ago

Yeah...lots of fun watching reed and morningstar choke in the spotlight for 4 years.

PhogAdvisory 4 years, 3 months ago

...You do realize we won the national championship Tyrel Reed's freshman year, right?

Chris Shaw 4 years, 3 months ago

Because Self is recruiting:

4 Mitch McGary

$6 Brandon Ashley

9 Kaleb Tarczewski

19 Perry Ellis

22 Shaquille Cleare

Cauley is being recruited by KU, but McGary, Tarc, and Ellis are the main targets for KU.

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/recruiting/rankings

Mike Bratisax 4 years, 3 months ago

Not arguing with your answer kushaw but why not go after both of the top 2 recruits in Kansas? I know you said KU is recruiting him but not nearly as much as our two main rivals. Kansas State has already offered him a scholarship and KSU coach Brad Underwood is actively recruiting him and trying to set up a visit. Missouri has also offered him a scholarship. As much as I wish differently, there is no chance we will land all 5 of the recruits you listed. I would guess that Mitch McGary would be either 1st or 2nd on Self's wish list and plays at the same position (pf/c) but I don't want to see Cauley twice a year in a jersey with a feline mascot. Willie Cauley is exactly the type of player HCBS has had the most success with. Obviously this is just my opinion but not getting a player of this caliber who is in-state and at a position we need filled would be a mistake.

jaybate 4 years, 3 months ago

"Rumor Mill"

~TRob Rumor: Some Lawrence film makers are reportedly penning a rebounding documentary about Thomas Robinson called "Splendor on the Glass." They expect TRob to set a season rebounding record, then depart for the NBA. As with the William Inge play/movie, it will begin with the Wordsworth verse...

"What though the radiance which was once so bright Be now for ever taken from my sight, Though nothing can bring back the hour Of splendour in the grass, of glory in the flower; We will grieve not, rather find Strength in what remains behind; In the primal sympathy Which having been must ever be; In the soothing thoughts that spring Out of human suffering; In the faith that looks through death, In years that bring the philosophic mind." --William Wordsworth

~Manhattan Rumor: After Wally Judge transferred, and Dalonte bolted to give Turg some assistance with Maryland recruiting, the rumor is Frank Martin has admitted he really is Bert from Sesame Street and that he has hired Ernie to recruit some XTReme Puppets.

~Maryland Rumor: Dick Vitale was overheard testing out hype-hooks for Mark Turgeon and Maryland recently. "Turg's Terps" is the top candidate.

~Consonants Rumor: Coach Consonants is reputedly thinking of retiring, because he can't think of any new ways to lower the game further.

~Deandre/Frank Haith Rumor: Deandre has decided to become the first player-coach in D1. The rumor is MU's Frank Haith has agreed to a buy-out in order to make way for Deandre. Finishing his MU career at 0-0, Haith has the highest winning percentage of any MU coach.

~Sheahon Rumor: Zenger has been secretly working out under Andrea Hudy's supervision and has added 35 pounds of muscle, thus making him the strongest AD in America.

~Kentucky Rumor: Due to literacy issues, the playbook has been reduced to international symbols.

(Note: all fiction. No malice.)

jaybate 4 years, 3 months ago

Okay, slayr, here is my key tip gleaned from my Italian recruiting trip.

Guglielmo coffee. Espresso grind. Comes from down south in Calabria. Pack an old fashioned Bialetti with it. It makes espresso as near as you can come to the commercial machines. I am told it can be ordered on-line somewhere here in America. I have not tried yet, since I acted as a coffee mule on the trip home. I stuffed my suitcases with the stuff. This can get you through those tough days, say, when a big time recruit decides against KU.

Andy Tweedy 4 years, 3 months ago

Zenger will do well to pack on the muscle for the next time him and Wichita State get in to a tussle!!!

jaybate 4 years, 3 months ago

ralster,

I stand corrected. The man is shameless and you have given him the ways. :-)

Mike Bratisax 4 years, 3 months ago

'Regarding "Turg's Terps", hopefully they have a good season. If they play poor, they will get another nickname (turg's tur--)?'

My wife started the Heimlich Maneuver before I could explain my sudden choking sounds were due to laughter with coke going up my nose (Coca-Cola!) and not her overdone chicken.

Robert Brock 4 years, 3 months ago

I think that the Hawks will face a lot of zone next season. Our perimeter shooters will decide what kind of season it will be.

Mike Bratisax 4 years, 3 months ago

I think we will play a lot of zone next season..at least more than in the past. TRob needs to be on the floor, not on the bench because of foul trouble.

REHawk 4 years, 3 months ago

As for perimeter shooters, let's not forget Teahan. I envision that guy hitting a game winning shot for the Jayhawks sometime in a key contest this season. We are bound to see the fearless side of his competitive nature emerge. Though a step slower than TT or EJ he is one of those players who will have glued his mind and motor neurons to the Bill Self style of play. He and Travis and Taylor will have spent a combined 13 years in the Jayhawk program.

Tom Gillaspie 4 years, 3 months ago

A step slower? More like a staircase slower. Seems a good guy, doubt if he will be seen on the court much.

Jack Wilson 4 years, 3 months ago

Ah, in just a few posts we have captured the essence of the message boards.

Self explaining his subpar recruiting class (to this point); a spank of Self regarding recruiting misses (pigballin); a "don't criticize Self" defense (theajayhawk/jhox); the "our recruiting is just fine" suggestion (actorman/ashwingrao); and a Jaybate post as to why we'll be fine, together with a humerous interlude. All we're missing is the "rating don't matter" -- of course, only when we get poorly rated players.

A few realities, like it or not: 1. Our recruiting class is a subpar class to this point. We were forced to take the best available with Anderson and Traylor, two guys we didn't even know in February. We wiffed this season on Nash, Chol, Turner, and Lacey. The excuses that we had guys that might or might not turn pro ignores the recruiting accomplishments of other schools in the same spot. Really, an analysis of this requires one to be able to objectively judge coach Self, and not take the "Self is God" or "we can't criticize Self" or "how do you know, you're not a D-1 coach" approach. Because many of you see a comment on recruiting as an attack on Self. It is just reality. He isn't perfect. And even if he does everything right, he still might not get the top guy. Results rule. And this class is a failure. And that is not an attack on Self. If Daniels joins, the pendulum swings. 2. We have a huge, huge deficiency in outside shooting. When we start talking about Teahan being our 3-ball threat, we're in trouble. There is a reason why he sits, and sits. This is scary at this point. Remember when we (many on this board) agreed that the 3 ball was an area of concern prior to last season, and we had Reed, Selby, Morningstar, Marcus? That "concern" is nowhere near what this is .. that was nitpicking as stud squad. This is a 4 alarm fire. We have no proven three point shooter. None. To quote Adrian to Rocky .. "You can't win" (without 3 point shooting). Our question marks are significant. Can TT take an Aaron Miles'-like leap? Can anyone else approach 40%? Couple that with the next point ....

hawksfan08 4 years, 3 months ago

While I'm happy to criticize Self, I think this years class is a series of unfortunate events. Of the 4 you name, Arizona was able to offer more PT to Turner with Taylor being an incumbent senior. Nash is the half brother of byron eaton which is how he ended up at okie state. Chol, at the time, was told that at least one morris twin would be back, thus more PT at Arizona. Lacey was guaranteed more playing time at Alabama, plus the whole tornado, stay close to home issue. I'm disappointed in the class but there were a lot of factors that caused this to happen.

And you say other schools have the might/might not turn pro excuse. I guarantee Calipari told every recruit that Jones and Lamb were gone. I'll guarantee that Ol Roy told every recruit at least henson and barnes were gone and maybe zeller. I'll guarantee Scott Drew told every recruit Perry Jones would be gone. And so on and so on. It was a strange year in recruting due to the lockout keeping kids in college.

Now next year, if he doesn't pull in at least 2 of 3 with muhammad, ellis and tarczewski, we'll have something to seriously talk about being wrong with our recruiting.

Chris Shaw 4 years, 3 months ago

What about Reece, Jackson, and McGary?

Ben Simonett 4 years, 3 months ago

100% correct,

but you need to c.y.a on these message boards so be sure to explain how saying this years recruiting class is poor does not imply you think self is a bad recruiter, otherwise the homers take it that way.

trust me, i've learned that the hard way

Sam Constance 4 years, 3 months ago

The inherent problem in your reasoning can be illustrated with the following phrase:

"Results rule. And this class is a failure."

Because the idea of the aggregated rankings of the members of a year's recruiting class being paraded around as "results" is beyond idiotic to me. College basketball is about winning games, not winning recruiting battles. Obviously the latter influences the former, but your (and other) posts give the impression that the recruiting class rankings are what's really important.

Recruiting is only ONE component of being successful in college basketball. I could understand the myopia regarding recruit rankings if Kansas was failing to put together successful teams, but the fact is that results DO rule. And Kansas' results are better than 98% of teams in college basketball.

In my vocabulary, "being realistic" involves keeping in mind that KU has lost some big-time contributors and will not likely be a title contender like it has been the past two years. It doesn't involve making post after post after post...

...after post...

...after post...

...after post, hemming and hawing about this year's recruiting failures and implying that anyone who disagrees with your doom and gloom analysis is just a homer wearing red and blue glasses. To me, that's not being realistic--it's being pompous about your negativity.

Bill Self is not beyond reproach. He doesn't play a deep enough bench for the kind of talent he has. His teams seem to play tight in big games--especially when heavily favored. Those are just a couple. This year's class isn't what some expect, but to lay that at his feet, after a career of recruiting success, is just foolish.

Personally, if Self is being honest with recruits about PT, whereas we all know that a guy like Calipari (for example) just tells them what they want to hear, I'm fine with losing a few of the top TOP recruits because of it. I've made my opinion on recruit rankings clear before--there is not enough difference in talent between recruits at this level to make all the hand-wringing about rankings worthwhile. As long as we are still getting guys in the top 100-150 or so, I couldn't care less where they fall on the scale if they are coming here because they WANT to be here and are ready to WORK for their playing time.

People who want to fret over the modern day recruiting "arms race" are just wasting their time and effort, imho.

Mike Bratisax 4 years, 3 months ago

When it comes to recruiting, I have to agree with HEM although Ralster makes an excellent point about the twins making it difficult to recruit big men. This would be a non discussion had they stayed. So..the 2012 recruiting class will be more important than most due to both needs and to some degree about Self landing his share of top recruits. Is it fair to put Self's recruiting skills on trial after all his previous success? I think so..In today's world, it is all about what can you due for me now, not what you did. Of course if this years class surprises all the doubters and the team out-preforms all expectations than all of this will be forgotten, until next year. Tough job.

Jack Wilson 4 years, 3 months ago

(cont) 3. Our big men are way, way thin. We have one proven big guy, TRob. A guy who, while a stud, has proven that he can snag two fouls as quick as anyone. Some are now talking about Withey as if he is someone we can count on. We cannot even credibly make that statement until he proves it. Just consider your own observations of his play. There was very little positive. We are banking on a big leap, which is extremely optimistic (and unlikely). Our next two players in the post are freshmen. Lightly regarded freshmen. Even if you are now a "ratings don't matter" guy, just look at the odds that we'll get solid productivity. Remember this season? We had to play Little at the four at times, right? And we had Marcus, Kieff, and TRob. And we saw Withey when there was an injury. Can you even imagine if TRob would get hurt? That is why hitting on the top big guys is so important.

Ever seen the commercial with the beer goggles? Put the beer goggles on and just about anything in a skirt looks good. We have our own version, and they are crimson and blue. That doesn't mean we can't be optimistic. But let's at least be try realistic .... and a bit objective.

Lance Hobson 4 years, 3 months ago

Bad 3-pt shooting has cost us many Final 4s over the years, including last year. We needed Reed and Morningstar to step up and ultimately they didn't have it in them. We need two or three players shooting over 40% on threes to get to the Final 4, you'll see that on every Final 4 team we've had.

Mike Bratisax 4 years, 3 months ago

I think the free throw line has done at least as much damage. 50% against Syracuse would have been enough to win the tittle.

Steve Kubler 4 years, 3 months ago

I agree with 2 & 3 and am worried about depth in the post even if we do get one more big body. I am not as worried about the starting 5, even if untested other than in Witheys case due to tendency for injury. The bench is a big question mark in my mind as none of them have shown yet what they can do. Will they mesh together as a team? will they take the next step? will Jaybate take the floor and verbally dominate the opponent?? (no malice intended) :)

I do believe the capability is there in the players we have but we don't know yet. As the saying goes, 'that's the reason they play the games".

As far as the first point goes this quote of Self's states my opinion. “If you set your goals pretty high, you probably will be told ‘no’ more than ‘yes,’”

I'm sure he could bat 100 if he lowered his expectations, anyone want that?

Chris Shaw 4 years, 3 months ago

I have to disagree with #3! At what point did you know for sure Marcus or Kieff or both were leaving for the NBA? The reality and the truth is that you didn't! Every decent Top 100 big Man had already committed by Feb of this year and it was still uncertain whether or not the Twins had played themselves into Top 20 picks.

You're absolutely right that KU is "Thin" up front for next season. However, what happens if Kieff comes back or even a bonus Marcus comes back for their senior seasons. The truth is that we aren't having this conversation. Even if Kieff comes back by himself, we aren't having this discussion about KU being "Thin" in the post.

I don't want to talk about next year, but I want to talk about that time period from last summer to Feb (2011) when The Twins were firmly on KU's roster with T-Rob and Withey backing them up. How are you going to sell "PT" to Chol, Pelle, etc etc? The truth and reality is that you can't.


In terms of Beal, Lacey, Nash..............and possibly Daniels, I agree with you HEM. If KU should strike out on Daniels then I would consider it a huge blow to recruiting at the 2/3 spot or how I call it........."The Rush Spot". Unlike the post situation at KU during the summer of 2010, it has been known for almost a year now that KU needed a shooting guard (Got one in Mclemore) and 3 man Small forward with the priority filling KU's "Rush Spot". It would have been nice to have gotten another shooting guard in Beal or Lacey, but it's always been known that KU needed a 3 man that could shoot, rebound, and had some nice size. Keeping fingers crossed on Daniels and if Daniels goes to Europe or some other school, or just skips the entire year altogether than I agree, it would be huge miss at that position for 2011.

HawkKlaw 4 years, 3 months ago

+1

The all-knowing HEM lmfao. KU basketball is doomed!

Drew Doerfler 4 years, 3 months ago

as much as i hate to say it because i LOATHE Calipari...he took a bunch of freshman farther in the tournament (thru a hard draw) than self took our seasoned group (with an unbelievably easy path)

Ben Simonett 4 years, 3 months ago

Because you can be KU fan and still be dissapointed with a poor recruiting class.

I'm not wanting Self to go out sign 4-5 one-and-done players every year. I am simply making a truthful statement: this years recruiting class for KU is drastically underpar.

it ends there, I'm not saying self can't recruit, or self is a bad coach, or self wont go out and land a top 5 recruiting class next year (like he usually does) I am simply pointing out that this year, he didn't.

why does pointing out inconvenient truths upset so many people?

nuleafjhawk 4 years, 3 months ago

bennybob - I couldn't agree more. Man, I feel like the black sheep of the family because I'm disappointed that we have a habit of losing to some very low ranked teams in the NCAA's. It's an inconvenient truth - but it's the truth. I wouldn't mind losing to some highly ranked, or at least higher seeded teams ( I wouldn't be HAPPY about it, but it wouldn't kill me ), but I just don't get people being content with losing to the 13, 14, 9, 11 seeds.

Sam Constance 4 years, 3 months ago

FWIW, you and bennybob are talking about being disappointed about two very different things.

Until someone can show me a direct correlation between recruit class rankings and NCAA tournament success, being upset about our recruits' rankings and being upset about losing to VCU in the tourney are separate issues.

Unless someone can tell me with a straight face that the difference between regular season success and tournament success lies in our recruits' rankings. I can't be the only one who thinks it's absurd to imply that a top 100 recruit can perform up until March, but that a top 20 recruit can keep performing all the way through March.

Losing to VCU, Bradley, Bucknell, UNI, is a coaching issue, not a recruiting issue.

nuleafjhawk 4 years, 3 months ago

marchphog - i agree 100%. Absolutely. The recruit rankings mean nothing to me. Never have. I'm totally on board with your statement about the bad losses being coaching issues.

Sam Constance 4 years, 3 months ago

True enough. And I can certainly see that point.

But the bottom line is that it's NOT a recruiting issue.

Sam Constance 4 years, 3 months ago

Very interesting take. I would love to see numbers on that kind of thing--the top TOP recruits ability to shine in the big moment, as opposed to shy away from the big moment.

Chalmers certainly had some gigantic cajones (it seems like everyone on that 2008 team did in their own right). Everyone remembers The Shot against Memphis, but he had at least 2-3 other end-of-game, big-time shots that propelled KC to victory.

I believe one was in another big moment--against Texas in the 2007(?) Big 12 Championship game.

Lance Hobson 4 years, 3 months ago

We didn't lose out on Orton, Self chose Robinson over him so he ended up at UK even though KU was his first choice.

nuleafjhawk 4 years, 3 months ago

Coach Self's recruiting ability is not the problem. We've had some great recruits while he's been here. Some of them just haven't always panned out like we wanted them to. I have to agree with some of the other comments that he's a great coach, but I just have to wonder what the heck happens at tournament time. I KNOW we're not going to win it all every year, but there's a problem when we consistently flounder against the teams that we SHOULD beat. You all know the four or five teams I'm talking about. That's my only complaint with Coach Self. I know he's not personally out there missing free throws and committing silly fouls, but when his teams are (I haven't looked it up, don't go crazy....) 1-6 or 1-7 in Elite Eight games, you have to place the blame somewhere and he is the head coach.

HawkKlaw 4 years, 3 months ago

KU basketball is doomed! I mean, seriously, our coach only wins 83.7% of the time. That's pretty lousy. Anyone can do that. Why doesn't he have a 100% winning percentage? Disappointing as all get out. C'mon Self!

nuleafjhawk 4 years, 3 months ago

A 75% winning percentage would be much more impressive if it meant beating quality teams when it counts.

HawkKlaw 4 years, 3 months ago

You're so right! Memphis and UNC were pretty low quality in the Final Four that one year. And Texas is never any good when we beat them in the conference tourney every year. Durant who? Augustine what? Just poor basketball all around. Like I said...Self is just plain lousy. Dominating the Big 12 for 8 years is the smallest of feats and nobody should even really care about it.

nuleafjhawk 4 years, 3 months ago

HawkKlaw - you hit the nail right on the head!! I'm so proud of you!! ......THAT ONE YEAR!! As far as winning the Big 12 goes, that is nice. Very nice. Maybe you would rather win the Big 12 than go to the Final Four. I would not. I'd rather come in, say 4th or 5th in the Big 12 and WIN the NC. But I guess I must be an dreamer. I should settle for just getting to the tournament like you! That must be a real treat for you when we get bounced out by ( here we go - we know em by heart ) BUCKNELL, BRADLEY, NORTHERN IOWA & VCU. Like HEM said, we need to be realistic - and realistically, most KU fans don't want to settle for a Big 12 Championship and then throw in the towel. I'm not real sure what we're debating here - I've said Self is a great coach. I love KU. I just don't like to be sent packing in mid-March by teams that we REALISTICALLY should be beating. I don't see why ANY Jayhawk fan WOULD want to.

HawkKlaw 4 years, 3 months ago

Yeah, Bill Self's one NC doesn't make him better than any other coaches. Well...I mean....I suppose he might be better than those who never won it. But there's really just a small percentage that never won it so that's not really anything to take note of. Better just take it for granted.

I think we were debating whether or not KU beats quality opponents when it matters, since, if you'll read above, your comment on that matter is what prompted my response. But I guess somewhere along the line I totally endorsed KU winning the Big 12 and losing in the tourney. Who knows.

nuleafjhawk 4 years, 3 months ago

Well, it kinda does sound that way. (endorsing winning the Big 12 and losing in the tourney) Seriously, let's forget that we aren't agreeing here for whatever reason. I mean, everyone is happy with what Self's accomplished during the regular season and the conference tournament while he's been here. It's an unbelievable record. I think we can agree on that. (I hope!) I personally am not happy with his tournament record. Maybe I'm the exception. Of course, I was ecstatic about 2008 and I realize that we are not going to win it all every year. I've been a die-hard KU fan for a long, long time and it KILLS me when they go 35-2 (or any other similar record) and then get spanked by a team like you know who. I understand that there are upsets in the tournament every year. But when you get "upset" consistently, all of a sudden it's not an upset any more. I don't want to see that happen to KU. I don't want to see us get a reputation as a team that other teams WANT to line up against in the tournament.

HawkKlaw 4 years, 3 months ago

Being happy that KU consistently dominates the Big 12 is different than being happy that KU consistently wins the Big 12 AND loses in the NCAA tournament.

It kills all of us when KU goes 35-2 and then loses to a "lesser" team in the NCAA tourney. We're passionate fans here. But let's put it into perspective: That's the nature of the tournament. There are going to be huge upsets every year (yes, they still are upsets even if it does happen more than once). It happens to everyone sooner or later in a "win or go home" format.

KU doesn't have a reputation of being a team that other teams want to line up against in the tourney. Nobody wants to play a team that's 35-2 in the tourney, no matter what happened the previous year(s).

Bottom line is this (IMO): KU is consistently one of the top men's bball programs in the country largely thanks to Bill Self. Every year, we are in the position to win it all. Not very many teams can say that. We shouldn't take it for granted. Sure, we may get beat in the tourney from time to time, but I have faith that Bill Self will win more championships here at KU. He's proven that if he has the right lineup, he can lead our Jayhawks to the promised land.

Look at this year's lineup: We couldn't hit a free throw to save our lives, didn't play great defense, and our guard play was shakey at best. Not exactly championship-worthy, despite the gaudy record.

Contrast that with 2008: We could hit free throws! We played spectacular defense! Any player could carry the team on any given night (not just Marcus)! Now that's a recipe for success!

Rest assured, Bill Self will win more championships at KU.

nuleafjhawk 4 years, 3 months ago

Well, OK ! Your last post sounds a lot like what's been going on inside my head. Despite how it might look in print, I agree with just about everything you say here.

The only thing I would raise an eyebrow at is the statement about having the right lineup. Hawk, if we didn't have the right lineup to win it all this year - we ain't never gonna have it. We had great big men, we had great shooters, we had good ball handlers, we had a great bench. All year long I practically drooled over the prospect of playing Ohio State in the tournament, because there was no doubt in my mind that we would have beaten them. But we looked absolutely terrible against Boston College (???) and got humiliated by VCU.

About our reputation - We've been beaten by lower seeds (some much lower) in 5 out of the last 7 tournaments. That's 71.4% for those who like percentages. That's a bad trend. Other teams aren't shaking in their Nike's anymore when they see KANSAS across our jerseys.

Here's what I know ( I think!). It sounds like we both love KU and we both want them to win. How we perceive success might vary a little bit, but that's OK. And I DEFINITELY agree that Coach Self will win more championships here.

HawkKlaw 4 years, 3 months ago

Common ground! lol

I would disagree that we had great shooters this season though. TT, Reed and Morningstar were good, and I have no problem with them getting playing time over Selby...but they're no Robinson, Chalmers and Rush (who were GREAT, IMO). We'll need more Robinson, Chalmers and Rush types to win another NC.

Its pretty tough to win it all when you can't make FT's. I agree with the rest of your points though (great bench, great big men, etc). But shooting was not necessarily this team's forte. We had high FG%'s because of our bigs; our guards needed to step it up for us to win the NC.

I would also reiterate that we played average defense (at best) this season as opposed to the excellent defense in 2008. Average defense doesn't win championships unless your offense scores like over 100 a game.

Its not that we couldn't have won it this year, because the team was capable of doing it. But all year long I had a sneaking suspicion that we wouldn't (mainly because of the poor FT%). In 2008, I had "that feeling." This year I didn't.

Maybe other teams don't regard KU as highly as they used to. Who knows. I know that when I see a team with KANSAS written across the jerseys, I feel sorry for whoever the opponent is. And that opponent better have come ready to play, or the game could be over by halftime.

In 2008 I heard a ton of people praising Bill Self for being the savior of KU basketball (Roy who?). You know what I didn't hear? KU fans complaining about losing to Bucknell or Bradley. When Bill Self wins another one the doubters will once again be silenced (until the next time KU loses to a "lesser" team in the tourney, which, as I said, is bound to happen to everyone sooner or later).

KU basketball is in a good place with Bill Self at the helm (really couldn't be in a better place). Just for the record: I want KU to do both; win the Big 12 every year and win the NC as much as possible. I think both are important and both mean a lot to me as a KU fanatic.

John Randall 4 years, 3 months ago

"""Yeah, Bill Self's one NC doesn't make him better than any other coaches. Well...I mean....I suppose he might be better than those who never won it. But there's really just a small percentage that never won it so that's not really anything to take note of. Better just take it for granted."""

HawkKlaw, either your sarcasm is too weak or your 'small percentage' betrays you as woefully ignorant! Of the many thousands of Div.I head coaches (over a thousand of them at schools in 'big conferences') since 1939 (1st NCAA tournament) exactly 13 have 2 or more NCs, and only Mike Kzryzewski 4 (Duke) '91 '92 '01 '10 Jim Calhoun 3 (UCONN) '99 '04 '11 Roy Williams 2 (North Carolina) '05 '09 Billy Donovan 2 (Florida) '06 '07 are still active.

McGuire, Sloan, Valvano, Thompson, Brown, Tarkanian, Richardson, Pitino, Olson, Smith, Izzo, Williams, Boeheim are some names you might recognize among the 33 coaches with a single (one, 1) NC, and Bill Self is one of the five still active.

Your kind of cheap comments are easy enough to make – backup is a little tougher.

HawkKlaw 4 years, 3 months ago

lmfao

Yes, that cheap comment you quoted me on was sarcasm. Pretty blatant sarcasm at that. What kind of moronic KU fan would actually think that we should take the National Championship for granted? C'mon now.

Jeeveshawk 4 years, 3 months ago

I don't think we need to recruit too badly anymore. It seems that Ty, T-Rob, EJ, Travis, and Withey are all ready to take big steps forward.

LaJHawk666 4 years, 3 months ago

I agree.

I think this recruiting class was about a C+. The upperclassman have to step up or next season could be a big step backward. I'm glad Self is at the helm, but he can't make 3-pointers.

I think there's only about a 25% chance that DDaniels comes to KU.

Tony Bandle 4 years, 3 months ago

We all have a choice...life's glass is never completely full or completely empty. There is always volume and void.

Today, when it comes to Kansas basketball for 2011-2012 Jaybate has chosen volume, HighEliteMajor has chosen void. Both choices can be justified, both choices are possible, both choices can be questioned.

Weather, war, economic woe has provided enough void in my life, thank you very much. I choose volume and a positive outlook for next year's season. I choose to feel good about something and it will be KU basketball.

Do the hurdles expressed by HEM exist...very possibly. Does the potential greatness expressed by Jaybate exist....very possibly.

I have to be realistic almost every minute of my life...but once in awhile, I am going to dream. I choose Kansas as a National Contender next year.

PhogAdvisory 4 years, 3 months ago

+1

I consistently love your posts, Oakville.

jaybate 4 years, 3 months ago

When I win the lottery, I am going to endow an institute at KU. It is going to be called "The jaybate Institute for Advanced Frivolity and Unrealism." I will stack the board with aliases from this site. We are going to hire OakvilleJHawk to architect the building. The one condition on his getting the commission is that he must design the building without being realistic. We owe it to this man. Being realistic has its place, but not every minute. We must save this man, so that he can save us with the great unfettered imagination he will imbue the institute with.

Rock Chalk!

NH_JHawk 4 years, 3 months ago

Excellent post and perspective, Oakville. I like your line of thinking and appreciate your contributions to this board.

Ben Simonett 4 years, 3 months ago

Self would make one hell of a politician:

"Fortunately we were able to sign a couple good kids late (forwards Braeden Anderson, Jamari Traylor) that we wouldn’t have recruited early because we wouldn’t have known of their availability.”

what the hell does that mean? if they were available in the spring they were available in the fall.

i guess its a nice way of saying "last resort"

Tom Gillaspie 4 years, 3 months ago

Change "their availability" to "our need". We should consider ourselves fortunate that these two were still around this late.

Chris Shaw 4 years, 3 months ago

How would you be acting if The Twins had come back for their Senior year? Hindsight is 20/20, huh?

lee3022 4 years, 3 months ago

"Their availability" refers to the scholarships vacated by Marcus and Markeff.

Fred Davis 4 years, 3 months ago

I'm quick to criticize Self as much as the next guy, but to call out the guy's recruiting ability? Please. Self is hands down one of the best recruiters in college basketball, and this idea that he's supposed to stockpile top-10 talent every year is absurd and unrealistic. Sure, there have been guys turn KU down, but not every kid that has turned KU down has been some dynamo, Snaer for instance, has been solid, but c'mon, if a kid wants to pick Florida State over Kansas, there's nothing Self and Crew can do about that. And to lose kids to Kentucky? Guess what, everybody loses kids to Kentucky. And when you get down to it - Self has gone after high-caliber kids the last few years - Henry and Selby - and how'd those work out? While it would be great to get the Daniels kid, it won't be the end of the world if they don't. Honestly, I think this class Self is bringing in, especially on such short notice, is going to turn out to be one of the best classes in Self's tenure. None of the kids look like one-and-dones, and they all seem very coachable and most importantly, want to be Jayhawks. There's something to be said for that, reminds me of the class that won a title. Finally, Self and staff perhaps have hurt themselves a little bit because for one, choking in the tournament is great fodder for other coaches to tell recruits about, and let's face it, it's not as though any of Self's KU players, save for Chalmers and Arthur to some extent, are exactly lighting it up in the NBA, and the kids Self goes after - they want to go to the NBA. Self and KU are going to be fine, but to say the guy is having problems recruiting is downright foolish.

Chris Shaw 4 years, 3 months ago

Here is my take on on this 2011 class:

1) KU, Self, and All of us felt really good about Josiah Turner coming to KU. The only problem is the "Timing" of his commitment. Nobody knew what Selby was going to do and with a backcourt of Taylor, EJ, and Selby.........I can understand why Turner chose Zona. If Turner would have waited in his recruitment, good chance that KU could be his choice. With that said, with MoMo Jones now transferring back to the East Coast it looks like Turner is going to be handed the Lexus of the Zona basketball program and so far it looks like he made the best choice.

I know Tharpe isn't as "Sexy" in the rankings as Turner, but I honestly believe that Turner/Tharpe will be a wash over the long run in terms of productivity at their college programs. Yes, Turner may only play 1 or 2 years at Zona, but I think Tharpe is going to be an extremely good point guard in college and at Kansas. May not be as flashy, but he knows how to run a team.

2) KU, Self, and all of us all really thought Bradley Beal was going to become a Jayhawk. I have to admit, that loss stings a little because Beal is the real deal. I know KU signed McLemore, but then again KU also thought it was going to get Beal and McLemore. With that said, losing out on Lacey as well makes the Beal decision sting a little more. I will admit that losing out on Beal first, Lacey second, and if KU loses out on Daniels that that will be a major blow. I think McLemore may be able to shoulder some of this load if Daniels goes elswhere, but it will be a huge blow in recruiting at this position from a 2011 perspective.

3) As far as the Big men, none of us knew what Marcus or Kieff were going to truly do and quite honestly they played well enough that they both deserved to leave for the NBA. The only problem with players like Marcus and Kieff is that if they do leave then that leaves you in a hole with recruiting. This I can live with because nobody knew for certain until really March that the Twins were going to leave. KU did the best with the situation that was presented IMO by picking up Anderson and Traylor. Every good post in the 2011 class committed by Feb and with the uncertainity of the Twins.......why would come in and play behind Marcus, Kieff, and possibly Withey? It is what it is.


I would say that the only big strikeout, should it happen, would be if KU lost out on all 3 in Beal, Lacey, and Daniels to provide scoring power at the 2 and 3 position. KU has already lost out on Beal and Lacey so hopefully KU can hit that home run that it desperately needs in Daniels.

Chris Shaw 4 years, 3 months ago

One other thing, I know a lot of posters don't get how KU is losing recruits to Zona, but quite honestly, Sean Miller is recruiting almost identical to what Self did in 2004 and 2005. Miller just took over a new program very similar to what Self did. This 2011 class was a homerun for Sean Miller because he had "PT" to offer in his second season as coach just like KU did in 2004, 2005, and 2006. Miller got his foundation class this year and I wouldn't be surprised to see him pull 2 major recruits in the 2012 class to completely build his team for a run just like Self did with Collins and Arthur in 2006.

milehighhawk 4 years, 3 months ago

Self is one of the 5 or 10 best recruiters today.

Jeeveshawk 4 years, 3 months ago

Hard to argue with that. I don't get why people are trying to say that he needs to get most of the top ten rivals or espnu100 recruits to be a decent recruiter.

KUnorth 4 years, 3 months ago

Bottomline with Coach Self is his proven track record of development. When someone needs to take a step forward, Coach Self develops that kid to be ready. I can think of when Sherron was a turnover disaster his freshman year, offensive charging, throwing the ball into traffic without a purpose point guard. By the time he took over at PG he was ready.

Same thing with Cole...when he took over the position after the mass exodus after the championship year, he was ready and became the most improved big guy in the nation.

Jackson and Arthur were forced to step up with Julian Wright departing early.

T-Rob, Tyshawn are on everybody's map to take a step forward, but we have seen a ton of playing time out of them. I'm watching for the Elijah, Withey, and Releford's to take the largest step forward.

Bill Self would do better going after the just the Naadir Tharpe's of the world and develop them for 3-4 years and keep them rolling through. I think the one and done players are fools gold for colleges and especially for Self's coaching style and history.

FLJHK 4 years, 3 months ago

I'm "choosing" to agree with Oakville's sentiments above.

With all the sadnesss and ugliness going on in the world, being able to vigorously talk Jayhawk hoops in May is just a beautiful thing.

Rock chalk!

Jeeveshawk 4 years, 3 months ago

My KU 2012 rotation 1-Taylor (Tharpe off bench) 2-Johnson (Tharpe could come off bench to be sg as well) 3-Releford (McLemore off Bench) 4-Robinson (Traylor and Anderson off bench) 5-Withey (Traylor and Anderson off bench)

Jeeveshawk 4 years, 3 months ago

My KU 2012 rotation 1-Taylor (Tharpe off bench) 2-Johnson (Tharpe could come off bench to be sg as well) 3-Releford (McLemore off Bench) 4-Robinson (Traylor and Anderson off bench) 5-Withey (Traylor and Anderson off bench)

Jack Wilson 4 years, 3 months ago

Phog1004: Before you go criticizing Kentucky too quickly, take note of their final four this past season. Final fours mean more to some, than others, I know. It's not our way, but it worked this past season. Now, sanctions may follow.

Othewise, the responses are a bit humorous. Cast a little objectivity on a parade of homers and the knives come out.

Missed points and a lot of excuses.

No one has said that we have to stockpike top 10 talent every season, as FreddyD suggests has been argued, nor have I said we even really have to get one top 10 guy at all. Strawman arguments. One top 60 big man would have been nice. One. And one Top 60 guard would have been nice. One. To add to McLemore. Not too high of expectations for a top 5 program, is it? And FreddyD's mention that Self did basically all he could in recruiting on "short notice." Really? What short notice? Coaches "over-recruit" all the time. Who didn't know Selby was a one and done? Marcus was on draft boards at 15 or so last summer. Self, like us, knew losing those two were clear possibilities. Markieff stepped up. But Self surely had better knowledge on his strides in practice than we did. I get that Kieff surprised this season, but Selby and Marcus leaving should not have been any surprise.

If one claims that Self was "surprised", why was he even recruiting Chol, Nash, Wiltger etc.? See, he wasn't surprised. He was on top of it. He was recruiting those spots. He just missed. So to say he missed because he was surprised is just wrong. But to say he missed because recruits may have seen a huge logjam .. Morrises, TRob .. that makes perfect sense (notwithstanding that other schools get top guys even with logjams).

But I get it .. we can't get everybody. We will lose out. Every school does. And I didn't even really blame Self .. I said that even if he does everything right, we might not get some top guys. And my top is really top 40-50. That is where the core of the best talent comes every year. Some guys flop in that range, some surprise outside of it. But that's the best group. Every season.

And Oakville's comment on void vs. volume is probably right. I'm really more of a glass is half full kind of guy.

But my end-game perspective is a Final Four. It is not competing with Missouri or Baylor for another Big 12 title (yawn). My view and comment on the state of our squad relates to our ability to compete for a Final Four. And, as we look at it on May 25, we are really thin in two major areas.

Look at Jeeveshawk's rotation above. We are relying entirely on freshmen off the bench? On only one that is a top 50 type guy? Sorry, he forgot Teahan and Wesley, two walk-ons. And that doesn't cause concern? I don't get that.

Jeeveshawk 4 years, 3 months ago

I disagree with your concern. We have pretty talented and old players to start (in the above rotation) and we have fairly talented Freshmen off the bench, you know Bill Self and he will make the best possible out of theese players, and he has made ends meet with lineups worse than this before.

Chris Shaw 4 years, 3 months ago

Again, you're not answering the question that I posed above and I'll pose it again. You say, why can't KU sign one top 60 big guy? One! You also say, why was Self recruiting Nash, Chol, and Wiltjer? Let me break it down for you HEM and then I'll pose my question again.

1) KU was never high on Wiltjer's list

2) Nash is a legitimate concern considering he plays the "3 spot".He was an Oklahoma State lean the entire time. I wanted him badly as i stated last summer I thought he was the best small forward in the class. Yes, better than Gilchrist. IMO though, the 3 spot is a different issue than the Big man issue. If KU misses on Daniels than yes it's a huge failure at the "Rush Spot" for the 2011 recruiting class for Self. I think your concern at the small forward spot is just and valid.

3) The Big Man Issue: Self was recruiting Chol, Pelle, Johnny O'Bryant, and Jakarr Sampson (Brewster Academy), which were all Top 75 Big Man Recruits. HEM, you are right that Marcus was on draft boards last summer and Kieff sky-rocketed in his play over the season. However, with these 4 recruits, which the class was already thin at the post, what are you going to tell them about "PT" at KU last summer? What is your pitch to these 4 recruits in the summer of 2010?

Do you sell all 4 of these recruits on the same thinking that Marcus leaves and Kieff stays? In that scenario you still have Kieff, T-Rob, and Withey battling for "PT". What happens if Marcus comes back?

The reason I ask these questions is because Jakarr Sampson committed to St. Johns in September of 2010. Was there any indication that Kieff or even Marcus was leaving at that time? Johnny O' Bryant committed to LSU in October of 2010. The same question about the Twins applies back in October. Norvel Pelle committed to St. Johns in November 2010. Again, for a third time, the same question applies. Chol committed to Zona in Feb. Chol may be the only legitmate recruit where KU "Lost" an opportunity to get a Top 75 Big man. It was still unknown about Kieff, but both Marcus and Kieff were playing at a level that were catching NBA scouts.

I don't know HEM, but "Timing" and "Circumstance" are major components of recruiting. Considering 2011 was extremely thin at the post position what plan or course of action did you have in mind for KU and Self?

You can say schools and coaches "Overrecuit" all the time, but do you really understand the ramifications and the accusations you are unintentionally making with a comment like that? Overrecruiting is an ugly side of college basketball that doesn't have much good or positive. Yes, it does happen, but IMO the way you make it seem............Self and KU should have over-recruited this season. Basically, exaggerate the truth to the recruits above (Especially the big men), not fully sure what was really going to happen. That's probably not the best path to go down.

Sam Constance 4 years, 3 months ago

"Cast a little objectivity on a parade of homers and the knives come out."


Calling your analysis, which approaches the whole situation from a very specific point of view, "objective" is laughable.

Ever considered that the "knives come out" because of your arrogance and the way in which you act like everyone who doesn't agree with your opinion is a "parade of homers"?

Get over yourself. At the end of the day you are no more informed than the rest of us. You're just some loser treating his opinion like it's established fact.

nuleafjhawk 4 years, 3 months ago

Cut it out! Cut it out! Cut it out! What the hell's the matter with you? Stupid! We're all very different people. We're not Watusi. We're not Spartans. We're Jayhawks, with a capital 'J', huh? You know what that means? Do ya? ......................... Who saw the NCAA Tournament this year? Who cried when we got beat by VCU?

Nobody cried when we got beat by VCU? I'm sure.

I cried my eyes out. So we're all dogfaces, we're all very, very different, but there is one thing that we all have in common: we were all smart enough to be Jayhawk fans. We're mutants. There's something wrong with us, something very, very wrong with us. Something seriously wrong with us - we're Jayhawks. But we're Kansas Jayhawks! We've been kicking ass for 113 years! We're 2038 and 799! Now we don't have to worry about whether or not we practiced. We don't have to worry about whether Coach Self wants to have us hung. All we have to do is to be the great Kansas Jayhawk fan that is inside each one of us. Now do what I do, and say what I say. And make me proud.

(minor liberties taken with quotes from "Stripes")

Mike Bratisax 4 years, 3 months ago

marchphog88..put the knife down! You might fall and cut yourself.

Fred Davis 4 years, 3 months ago

People need to get off of these 'ranking' arguments. Who cares that KU didn't get a Top-60 big man. Who cares if KU didn't get a Top-60 wing. So what. You've got a Canadian kid that was practically unheard of before this season. You've got a Jamari Taylor who didn't start playing ball until a few years ago. Tharp is a legit, Russell Robinson-esque PG that is precisely what Self's offense has missed since RussRob left and with McLemore, hey, he's a stud SG from all accounts, so what precisely is wrong with this class? And guess what, when Self says he didn't expect to be recruiting this late into the game, I call that short notice. Call it whatever you want, it's semantics. I don't think most people expected both Twins to leave, and as far as Selby goes, no that wasn't a surprise. To echo your point, my endgame is also Final Fours, and I was hammered after the VCU loss for calling out Self for consistently losing in the Elite Eight. But I give the guy a thumbs up for this class, and as I said before, this is a building block, 2-4 year group that will come away with a National Title. Bank on it.

Joel Hood 4 years, 3 months ago

Self has already stated that he needs to figure out the problem at the Elite 8 level. Why is that even being discussed in this forum? Anyone that can equate Self's recruiting success as "good for conference wins but not national titles" seriously needs to exit the echo chamber.

Some of you posters (posers?) out there think that Self is slipping because he doesn't always grab from the pool of top 25 talent. This is ridiculous. Recruiting is about always looking forward and keeping the right mix. Of course you want some Selbys and Xaviers in the mix, but just going after guys in the OAD pool is stupid. A great team has a mix of stars, experience, and role players. OADs are notorious for bad chemistry. Keep that in mind then next time you feel the need to rip on Self for not recruiting like Calipari.

Jeeveshawk 4 years, 3 months ago

I do have one big concern though. I don't think Tharpe can handle playing major minutes at PG, and I'm wondering who will take most of the time as floor general when tyshawns game is off, becuase im sure we can all agree he has a jeckell and hyde situation...

Martini_Boy 4 years, 3 months ago

So many post and so few have any credible knowledge of what they are talking about. How many times have you seen any ANY AAU kids play? 98% of the folks on this board don't even know where to go to see a game or could tell you the name of a team these kids play on. Yet they are on this board telling everyone how good or bad Bill Self is doing recruiting. I frankly don't care about your opinions. We pay that man a lot of money and it's his job to do the best he can with what he gets. After being beaten by teams that have 5 starters that never come close to a top 50 rating I'm sure he cares less and less just what the kid is rated and more and more on how he see's the kid fitting in and contributing here at KU. Richard Scott sure wasn't at the top of everyones list. Nor was a Steve Woodberry but who wouldn't take either of these guys for our team right now. I believe and after that I'll live with the results...

Chris Shaw 4 years, 3 months ago

Duke went to the Final 4 in 2001 winning it and losing in the semi's to eventual champion UConn in 2004.

Chris Shaw 4 years, 3 months ago

Considering their 2010 Championship was so unexpected by their fanbase you are indeed right, ralster. from 2005 to 2009 Duke missed out some big recruits ( Greg Monroe) and didn't have some recruits pan out like they thought.......Shavlik Randolph, Josh Mcroberts, Pocious (#40), Shaun Livingston, Demarcus Nelson, McClure.

jaybate 4 years, 3 months ago

"Recruiting is like a sport in itself." --Bill Self

"If recruiting were to be included in the next Olympiad, Self would contend for a gold medal." --jaybate

Steve Gantz 4 years, 3 months ago

Self is going to be fine, got caught in a pickle this year as the article points out. Everyone just take 2 rockchalks and the Jayhawks will be AOK. After all, we are Kansas, NCAA participants every year since 86 (except the year they wouldn't let us). Home of NCAA champions, All Americans and a tradition that goes right to the heart of the game. (I still hope we get Daniels)

jhawkr 4 years, 3 months ago

And then some of the OAD's or questionable early entries don't pan out in the NBA or better yet blow through all their $$.

That leaves them questioning the system and wondering, "Why ME"! ?

Stick around a few more years for your education and degree, and have something to fall back on and at the worst you only have a year or two left to finish up.

Steve Gantz 4 years, 3 months ago

We KU fans hate OAD's for another reason: Carmelo, the only OAD to really lead his team to a title!

Mike Bratisax 4 years, 3 months ago

NO!! Shooting 30 free throws and making 12 is why we lost. Sorry for the outburst.

nuleafjhawk 4 years, 3 months ago

No need to apologize 7782 - my blood boils every time I think about that game. In no way did Syracuse or Carmelo win that game - it was a big, fat, gift-wrapped trophy that we handed them. Surprised we didn't drop it in the process that day.

jaybate 4 years, 3 months ago

"Some XTReme Drills Reportedly Being Considered to Speed the Toughening of KU's Incoming Bigs"

~In rebounding drills, Manning and Dooley will fire on them with assault rifles.

~At the training table, battle-hardened TRob will deliver a forearm smash to each young big as he sits down to dinner.

~Coaching staff will fire pneumatic staple gun barrage at bigs, if they dunk like they want to star on Glee.

~The lanes on the practice court will be converted to piranha-infested pools and the young bigs will have to jump across them to get rebounds.

~After being fed raw meat for a week, the young bigs teeth will be cleaned with jack hammers.

~Once a week coaches will run over the young bigs with a Chevy Suburban.

~Young bigs will be ordered to bungee jump from the top of the Campanile with a bungee cord one foot too long.

~Every Wednesday in practice, the AFH scoreboard will be dropped on the young bigs.

Every Thursday, the young bigs will run practice laps in kerosene soaked jocks ignited with tiki torches.

(Note: All fiction. No malice.)

UncleMiltyN 4 years, 3 months ago

"..kerosene soaked jocks ignited with tiki torches." First, lmao... Second, I hope we get a recruit that is tall enough to necessitate said torch to reach his jock.

All the regulars made it out to comment on this article. Here's my prediction, we will be fine. Robinson is an unbelievably good player that will only get better with more PT. The true test for Self will be when we have more turnover with the coaching staff. When one of the current guys leave, Self has the connections to get top notch replacements.

lee3022 4 years, 3 months ago

It is amusing how many posts a couple of trolls can generate here.

The continuing success of KU basketball (and if you disagree with this stop reading now as there is no hope for you to understand) is attributed to two primary factors:

1, KU is simply a great institution. It offers students every facet to succeed in gaining an top quality education in nearly every field of their choosing, in an environment unlike any other. If offers to basketball players outstanding practice facilities and Allen Fieldhouse which is renowned across the nation as the finest atmosphere for college basketball ever. It overs an unrivaled history from coaches James Naismith to Phog Allen to Larry Brown to Bill Self and from players Clyde Lovellette to Wilt Chamberlain to Darnell Valentine to Paul Pierce to Mario Chalmers and many more.

  1. Head coach Bill Self and an amazingly gifted staff of coaches and trainers who recruit throughout the country (one of only a handful of coaches who can do so) competing for the top talent in the country year after year. A winning percentage at the top of the country attests to the ability to translate recruiting to success on the floor. Multiple consecutive championships in one of the most difficult conferences in the country further demonstrate this prowess as does the continuing success of its alumni.

Given these factors there is every reason for the Jayhawk fans to relax and rejoice. There are some positives in this year's recruiting class that might be unnoticed.

A, It is necessary for the program to maintain a stock of supporting players who mesh well, work on their games, play good defense, learn to shoot and score, build their bodies and form the core of the teams. Examples of this would include Kevin Pritchard, Tyrel Reed, Brady Morningstar, Darnell Jackson, Russell Robinson, and Sasha Kaun. None of these players were highly recruited or nationally ranked (as far as I can remember). All of them played on FInal Four teams and were National Champions. This year's recruits, except for Ben, seem to fit this description. Not all of them will stay but most of them are four year players who can reform the core of the team beyond next year.

B. It is also necessary to have a couple of primary players who can get their own shot, either from the perimeter or post, and dominate most opposing players. This is more difficult to achieve. For next year Thomas Robinson and Tyson Taylor meet this description and Ben and Deandre are additional arrows for the quiver.

C. Nearly every year at last one player shocks the media in coming out playing far better than in previous years. This is an attribute to the training and coaching staff and will likely be seen again this year.

Jack Wilson 4 years, 3 months ago

I'm sorry .. I have resisted replies today due to being busy with work, but dude, you really need to look the rankings of Darnell Jackson, Russell Robinson, and Sasha Kaun. I've posted this many times already .. a cut and paste. But here's our 2008 team (I can't let the disparaging of rankings slip that easily).

KU starting lineup in 2008: Robinson - 5 stars #27 Chalmers - 5 stars #12 Rush - 5 stars #13 Jackson - 4 stars #54 Arthur - 5 stars #16 Subs Kaun - 4 stars #34 Collins - 5 stars #21 Aldrich - 4 stars #30

All were highly recruited.

And so you understand Anderson and Traylor, we have only had one player in the last 5 seasons outside of the top 100 even contribute on a regular basis .. Morningstar.

But I'm sure, like many others, you'll give a thousand reasons why Anderson and Traylor, guys we were forced to take in a time of extreme need, will be top contributors.

Mike Bratisax 4 years, 3 months ago

And the fact that Jim Calhoun has won just as many titles as KU has in the history of the program doesn't bother you? Oh wait.. I think you stated on a different article that winning single game elimination titles are meaningless because anyone could win. Strange how it usually comes down to about 15 schools year after year.

KansasComet 4 years, 3 months ago

I am looking forward to next year. It will be nice to see what our returning players can do, when placed in a leadership position. It will also be nice to see what are newcomers can do when given the opportunity. Whatever has happened in the past is just that, and we can't change it. I am glad Bill Self is the Coach! He is not perfect, no one is. He could probably come to each of our jobs or homes and point out things that we could do better. Recruiting this year is fine. We have kids coming in that win games. That is what we need, winning players, with winning attitudes.

We lost VCU for the same reason we lost to UNI. We as a group were afraid of failure, and played tight. The team was tight and the coach was tight. In a lose one and you are done competition, it happens. It does not mean we are not a great team every year - we are! It just means the coach and the players not only have to defeat the opponent, they have to defeat themselves, by getting out of their own way sometimes.

Kansas will be fine, just like we are every year. Enjoy the wins, and get over the losses!

UncleMiltyN 4 years, 3 months ago

I would ask some of the people posting above to stop whining, but I actually love every minute of it. Talking about Jayhawk basketball in June is a luxury I never want to relenquish.

I will ask for them to clearly state what they expect from Self and his staff. I'm a little confused.

Maybe Self already answered my question with his "Recruiting is like a sport in itself" comment. Winning the B12, 30 games a year, and having a realistic chance to win the NC every year is only part of it. I take it we need to get the top 5 recruits every year as determined by averaging the lists from every major media outlet? Lord knows they always get it right.

KU fans are competitive and spoiled. I know I am.

Jack Wilson 4 years, 3 months ago

Just got back and read most of the discussion above .. Ralster, KUShaw, drgnslyr .. high quality stuff, as usual. And marchphog88, FreddyD, lee3022 .. and the others on topic, great points.

And don't mistake my strong opinions for arrogance .. I saw that above. I know I'm only right 95% of the time .... which trails Jaybate by 2.2%. (margin of error +/- 1.3%)

I do find it a bit interesting the difference of opinion on the topics of our recruiting efforts and our prospects for next season. One thing we know for certain, coach Self will get the most out of what he's got through conference play, at least. And watching the play and contributions of Anderson and Traylor will answer a lot on the value of rankings. It will for me.

Here's hoping rankings were wrong on those guys.

jaybate 4 years, 3 months ago

"I know I'm only right 95% of the time .... which trails Jaybate by 2.2%. (margin of error +/- 1.3%)"

LMAO!

PHOF!

Must be the tornadoes bringing out all the great takes today!

nuleafjhawk 4 years, 3 months ago

jaybate - good point about the tornados - i think a lot of us are mentally exhausted from all the "excitement". Regardless of our points of view, I hope everyone is safe and stays out of harms way. That way we can all be at our best when we're tearing each other apart! lol.

Sam Constance 4 years, 3 months ago

Nice. Very nice.

Appreciate your take, even if my responses come off as abrasive at times.

Jeeveshawk 4 years, 3 months ago

It is difficult to get the most out of your players if they are decimated so much like last year. Travis, Thomas, Josh, Elijah and TyTay have all gotton hurt at various times over the years and Bill Self pulled through because of an ocean-deep roster. But this year if that many players get hurt it will be hard to pull through with our 2012 roster.

Robert Robinson 4 years, 3 months ago

I love looking at so many peoples comments about how bad you think Self is at recruiting, and then looking at the season stats. Self should take that as a compliment. To bring in "bad" recruits and still win conference championships for the past 7 years really says something about his coaching. Yes, rankings do mean something, but not every thing.
By the way, serious question, has a one and done recruit won an NCAA championship yet?

Sam Constance 4 years, 3 months ago

4-year Gerry McNamara, who hit SIX 3-pointers from all sorts of ridiculous places on the floor, had a great deal to do with that win as well.

In fact, the highest margin of advantage in that game for Syracuse was 18 points, which happens to divide into six 3-pointers.

But I think Carmelo certainly deserved credit for getting them TO the title game. If I remember correctly, he'd had a torrid tournament, averaging 20 pts, 9.9 reb, 1.9 stl, and shooting almost 50% from three.

Mike Bratisax 4 years, 3 months ago

OK Last time..30 free throws, 12 made. That is why we lost. We had great dribble penetration but we were fouled and forced to make fts. We didn't. McNamara was hot but Warrick wasn't. 'melo also brought his A game.

jaybate 4 years, 3 months ago

While it is true that HEM's assiduity regarding basketball facts, especially recruiting facts, is admirable, impressive, reliable, and indicative of a commitment to truth and justice, I believe HEM also cites certain of these facts with particular emphasis in hopes of triggering ralster to post responses as frequently as possible. Why? Because HEM is all Jayhawk and knows we all enjoy seeing ralster's avatar as often as possible!

:-)

jaybate 4 years, 3 months ago

And where is memhawk today?

There haven't been any twisters in Graceland, have there?

We need him to round out the choir.

Up Cimba!

Martin Rosenblum 4 years, 3 months ago

Tornadoes to the left of us, tornadoes to the right of us!

The Big Guy sure seems pissed off lately. Flooding, tornadoes, Lakers, Celtics.

At least Bin Laden was a shot in the arm (head) as a move in the right direction.

We've always got the "re-scheduled" rapture to look forward to!

Gotta go, don't want to get all shook up if the twisters come too close.

Jeeveshawk 4 years, 3 months ago

Everyone seems to be saying self is bad recruiter becuase this one year he has gotton no top ten recruits. Yea, this bad recruiter can only get crapp-ass players like... Mario, Brandon, Aurthur, Darnell J., Sherron, Terrell, Brady, X. Henry, Selby, TRob, The Morris Twins, Elija,and Ben McLemore. Gosh self get your head out of your ass, any old coach can do that!

Make_Ur_Free_Throws 4 years, 3 months ago

"Can't recruit"

"Can't coach recruits"

"blah, blah, blah"

Do we really need another thread about this? So much said from the sidelines from people who have no idea what they are talking about.

The dogs bark, but the caravan moves on!

Rock Chalk!

jayhawks25 4 years, 3 months ago

Look at all the recruits Bill Self has gotten in the past years. I mean most of the players we have/had weren't the top 10 of recruits. Mario Chalmers hit the last second buzzer beater to lead Kansas into O.T. and eventually win that game and he's was't in the top 30 of recruit's. Bill Self has turned alot of guys into studs so I think we should worry about recruiting but, not as much as some of you guys on here.

Chris Shaw 4 years, 3 months ago

RSCI rankings had him #9 out of High School. Not sure what RSCI is...................it averages the recruiting sites (Scout, Rivals, etc etc) into one comprehensive ranking.

http://www.rscihoops.com/

Jayhawklegacy 4 years, 3 months ago

True... Ku fans are spoiled! I must say we did have a lot more mc'd's all americans 2-3 years ago. That worries me, but coach self as being a coach does not. I think he is a master mind of basketball knowledge! I have always said that he may not be the best motivator, but the best coach! He does not seem to have the same motivation for games as previous ku coaches. I like coach more then previous coaches for the reasons of personality, coach strategy and recruiting! What i don't like is we seem to lose to mediocre teams and blow out teams that are great! That is my only criticism of CS. I just wish our players would play juiced against every team we played, if not put in the next five players!!! Remember those days??

nuleafjhawk 4 years, 3 months ago

legacy - that's a really good point. It's human nature not to take the "mediocre" teams as seriously as you would say, a top ten ranked team. But we should. How many times this year ( and probably many other years ) did we find ourselves down 10 - 20 points to teams that never should have been in the game with us at all? We have all kinds of coaches to help with different aspects of the game. We have strength/conditioning coaches, dieticians, etc. Do we employ any kind of sports psychologist or something to help these guys with the mental aspect of the game? I'm serious - I'm asking because I don't know. But it sure seems that a great deal of our (and other teams') problems are "mind game" problems.

AZHawk72 4 years, 3 months ago

Wow, the weather must be as bad as I've read/seen on the overloaded informational highway today. Everyone seems to have that shut-in, I must be heard before the big one hits mentality. These can't be the Kansas Citians I was raised with many years ago. They were more like the Norman Rockwell painting after the flood hit KC--they just rolled their sleaves up, dug in, and worked to make things even better than they were before tragedy struck. This year's team may need to be of that stock and roll their jerseys up and get after it after the flood of exits. If anything is clear to me about this year's recruiting, it's that the coaches didn't seem to expect this many to depart this late. And as far as Daniels goes, it could be worse. "Dude, hurry up, do you want the #4 or the #5--hey, the waitress is reaching for a steak knife, DeAndre!"

I'm happy with what we have, all things considered, and consider the glass half full, as several of you have expressed, due to late decisions leading to even later recruitments. I like a team that's going to have to scratch its way to a lot of victories because come tournament time they won't be weighted down by expectations like so many recent groups have been.

This, too, will pass, just as the weather will. I worry about all you guys in the "alley" and hope you get through this in good shape. And out here in Mesa, Arizona, I just saw a cloud, which looked confused. I directed it southward, thinking you guys have already had enough.

loyal2thaphog 4 years, 3 months ago

I can't believe some of the opinions being stated by some of the posters on here, some of whom I generally tend to respect on many/most issues. Those who think this is an extremely weak class or the worst we have had in years need to get over the hype that is the espn/rivals rankings. It is so easy to read into/project what a class is going to do before these kids ever step foot on campus. Take last years recruiting class for example. Granted, we didn't have too many spots to fill but look at that class now. Selby, after the injury, was by all accounts a disappointment. And guess what, he's not going to be sticking around to prove it was a fluke. As for Royce Woolridge...Royce Woolridge who? He never played, and he too, is not going to be here next season. I for one am extremely excited and pleased about this years recruiting class for the following reasons.... 1. Due to the general consensus surrounding BenMac and Naadir, I don't think feel the need to explain my general sentiments, except that I am very excited to have a true point guard as accomplished as Naadir coming in is who isn't going to be excepted to run the show as a frosh. 2. Re: Anderson and Traylor.... are you guys aware that they didn't start playing basketball until sometime in H.S.? I think both were at least Sophomores. 3. Both are going to come in here and work. 4. Danny Manning. Two kids who have been playing organized basketball for only 2-3 years... All I see is potential and room to grow. 5.I personally think that Anderson is going to be solid at the 4 spot, maybe not this year, but with a year under Self/Manning, no doubt. 6. When I heard we signed Traylor, I was very excited. Beyond the obvious that we are thin in the post, I think Traylor has quite possibly the most upside of any player we signed. Obviously, BenMac doesn't have as much to gain b/c he is already a very good/gifted/exceptional player. But, beyond the fact that Traylor still might be filling out/growing, he looks like match-up problems across the board. To me, he looks like an oversize SF. Being a former football player, at the very least, should allow him to bang at a very competitive level. I don't know if he is really 6-7, but if I recall correctly, the twins both measured in somewhere around there at the combine.

loyal2thaphog 4 years, 3 months ago

My last point, which I think shouldn't be overlooked... what do you think Butler and VCU's recruiting classes looked like on paper over the last couple years? Seriously... I don't know about the rest of Butlers players, but a little research shows that Shelvin Mack was a rated as a three star prospect coming out of high school. Looking back on it, did he play like a guy rated as a three star prospect?

At the end of the day... these guys are going to come in, work hard, and compete. Given their brief history with the game and what playing under Self and Manning will do for them, they should be able to develop into very good players. The key word being develop. But, just as Rome wasn't built in a day, championship college basketball teams aren't either. Oh yeah... how attractive does our roster looked to the studs of this years recruiting class?

Jack Wilson 4 years, 3 months ago

Just a couple quick comments. And this goes to the points I have made.

I appreciate the optimism. But there is very little objective evidence to support all of this enthusiasm on Anderson and Traylor, except for the faith in the coaching. It is all wild speculation. Folks just say "I think he's solid" or "I'm excited about him." I have never disputed that there's a chance, over time, that these guys turn into solid players. Jackson was a well thought of recruit and it took him time. My point has been, please, temper enthusiasm for this season. Don't set the bar too high. Not only are these guys that aren't the creme of the crop, or near the creme, they are freshmen. But that just escapes many here. And that is a huge deal .. and why our having to settle for Anderson and Traylor are big deals .. we actually need them to play this season.

And the points by loyal2thaphog -- I love the VCU-Butler comparisons. I really do. Toss George Mason in there, too. Then, go back and look. How many other VCU-type schools (recruiting classes) didn't even make the tournament, or win an NCAA game, or get to the tournament? Really, nearly all. You are talking about the significant exceptions to the rule. Nevermind that none won titles. These are crazy exceptions. And that is the argument. That, well, "look at VCU, their recruiting classes weren't highly ranked, and they got to the final four. See you don't need highly ranked guys." Is that as absurd as it sounds?

And that is what you hang your hat on? For KU? For any top 5 program? I just can't get over how, objectively, one can be excited about these two guys. It seems that if you want to be excited, by gosh, you will be excited.

As many hang on coach Self's words ... coach Self said before the supposed signing day for Traylor/Lacey/Daniels that those potential signings may very well determine whether we can even compete in the Big 12. He said that with Anderson in the bag, and understanding Traylor is not a star, but would bring depth. So what does that mean? Think about that.

Daniels is huge. He changes the game. We could play him as a "light" 4, at the 3, good outside shooter. Let's cross our fingers that we get that extra ammo. We need it.

loyal2thaphog 4 years, 3 months ago

I respectfully disagree. The list is long and the teams plentiful that were able to achieve success playing guys you had never heard. I said it once, I'll say it again. Rome wasn't built in a day. I am not expecting this guys to come in here and light it up, but I do think they bring something to the table and can develop into good players.

Quick math shows that we lost 6 players at then end of this season that played significant minutes. Your unhappy about the players we've signed, but no one knew what the Twins were going to do. Temper your expectations and be happy that Self is a stand up recruiter who isn't going to promise kids with playing time if he doesn't know if it exist or not. With that in mind, how does signing a class comprised of big time recruits help the long term goals of our program if we lack a solid core when they get here in the first place. All that it is going to do is retard the development of someone who wants to be here for the long haul.

Don't get me wrong, I want to see Daniels in a jayhawk uniform next season and atleast one more season after... but you talk about him like you know him, have watched his career develop up until this point, and have consulted the tarot reader on Mass St. as to what kind of a season he is going to have. I remember hearing the same thing about Selby.... "He's a real game changer...." Well, 3/4 of the way through the season all I can remember hearing where comments/speculation about him trying wanting to protect his body so he wouldn't adversely affect his draft status. True or not, I always got the feeling Xavier gave no more than 85% of max effort during his illustrious college season (note the singularity of the word season). Is that really the kind of players you want? Me, I'll take the guy who comes in an bleeds crimson and blue for four years, but that's just me.
At the end of the day, be happy with who we have signed or get off the bus... We could have a front court comprised solely of T-rob, Withey, and J.Wesley- who most have never seen play and many have never heard of.

Mike Bratisax 4 years, 3 months ago

You might not have heard of TRob & Withey but I can assure you that they were well known to recruiters. TRob was #31 an Withey was #36. In no way is Daniels a OAD, he knows he needs a min. of 2 years and most likely 3.

jhawkr 4 years, 3 months ago

HCBS can't really comment much on recruiting. Do you think he is going to say, "We sucked this year. Our guys just don't stack up next year." ?

Of course he is going to say good things and hope he can pull a rabbit out of a hat. Like it or not, but we have to hope he can. Having a highly ranked class helps and looks good till they all take the court in the fall. As fans we create a lot of the drama and pay way too much attention to the recruiting agencies and what nots. It's hard not to get upset when we continue to lose recruits to other top schools (especially Calisleazy and Roy). Illegal things are done and terrible promises made to too many athletes at many colleges. At KU, we have to hope that isn't how things are done or the end result could be us all talking about what could have been. With the top athletes, it's rarely about winning and an education, and more about playing time and stats.

As for whether we do or don't get Daniels ............. Who cares anymore ? At this point he might be more qualified for the KU drama department then Allen Fieldhouse. We all assume he graduated high school and qualifies for admission. But is that why he is stalling or is it simply waiting for a better deal ?!

Jack Wilson 4 years, 3 months ago

Actually, here is what coach Self said .. sounds a bit like him saying we might not stack up .. his words:

“How we do could very well determine whether or not we have a chance to win the league next year or have a chance to just keep our head above water,” KU coach Bill Self said Sunday, speaking in generalities of today through Wednesday, the last three days of the signing period.

“If we are able to finish strong, we’ll be good. ... There’s not many guys left out there that can really play because everybody signed (early). We just happen to be recruiting three or four of them. We still have three kids we’ve got to sign, or two kids at least.”

Drew Doerfler 4 years, 3 months ago

what people are worried about, is that we had open spots and playing time available, and Self couldn't even land a top 30 recruit......

Drew Doerfler 4 years, 3 months ago

i'm talking more about the misses at guard....we need a scorer, and everyone knew that we were going to need a scorer, and we still missed out on a lot of guards

HawkKlaw 4 years, 3 months ago

Ahem...Ben McLemore is a natural scorer. Self didn't mis on him now did he? We're still pretty deep at the guard position anyway. BMac may not even start...If people on here are mad about us missing out on guards, that's pretty senseless considering that's not even a necessity for next season.

Our biggest concern is the post, but with an absolute stud like TRob being the focal point, all we need for the other big spot is a role player...and we now have 3 to 4 role players down low. Sure, it would've been nice to get higher ranked recruits for the post, but most high-ranked bigs were off the board by the time the Morrii declared for the draft. You can't fault Bill Self for being forced to to wait on the Morrii. High-ranking big men don't want to go to a school where they'll have to sit behind the twin towers, so Self had to wait until they declared to start hitting the recruiting trail full steam. Recruiting the best in the class would have been pretty pointless if Self didn't have playing time available.

Drew Doerfler 4 years, 3 months ago

Royce was in the rankings right around where quinton thomas and our new recruits are....right around 100 or over...and both Royce and Thomas transferred...I remember reading the optimism over these 2 players last couple of years also....but unfortunately, the odds are in favor of the players at these ranking, not contributing, or becoming role players as juniors/seniors.....optimism is nice, but it should be realistic...maybe Traylor becomes a stud, and i hope that he does.....but it is unlikely at this point......especially in the near future

dynamitehawk 4 years, 3 months ago

So, if Coach Self coaches for 24 more years and gets a little better he'll net 1000 wins at Kansas. I'll take it.

nuleafjhawk 4 years, 3 months ago

drgnslayr - to start with, I like Self! It may not ALWAYS sound that way, but I do. And I'm not disagreeing with you, but I think the percentages shown above may be more meaningful if the other coaches had roughly the same amount of games coached. Chances are that Coach Selfs numbers will drop some after another 400 - 500 games. I'm not going to lose sleep over it no matter what, but do you know how other coaches with @ 300 games played at a given school stack up against him?

nuleafjhawk 4 years, 3 months ago

drgn - I know you weren't aiming at me, but after re-reading my post, I can see where you might take it that way. Lol - I think we all get a little defensive here sometimes because we all want our points to be understood!! But actually, I was just really interested if there was anyone in CS's league, so to speak. I'm pretty sure I already know the answer to that, but I can't say for sure. As far as Ted Owens........ I always kinda liked him (yes, damn it, I AM that old!), but I believe that our "Ted Owens" type coaching days are over !

nuleafjhawk 4 years, 3 months ago

drgnslayr - no worries there! The faith is Strong! My ONLY downfall is that it just SLAYS me to get beat by the you-know-who's in the tourney.

Honestly - I still wouldn't like it if we got beat by Dukes, NC's, or even just higher seeded teams, but OMG I can't take getting beat by the 9, 11, 13, 14 seeds. I'm not blaming it on Self personally, I just can't figure it out!!

Lol - I KNOW it's not my fault - I've got my "lucky" T-shirt on, got my KU cup, sit on the right couch, cross my right foot over my left when we have the ball, left foot over the right when "they" have the ball....... I'm doing all I can do !! But I'll always love KU, no matter what. I've just been spoiled over the years and have very high expectations!

jaybate 4 years, 3 months ago

These numbers work for me, slayr.

But in the age of Fox News, I'm not sure facts are enough any more.

HEM relies on them a lot, too, but never builds much consensus either.

You really need to find a wedge issue, some kind of fear mongering, to drive your point home in the kind of emotionally irrational way Americans have become conditioned to be appealed to.

Read the latest Rolling Stone story on Roger Ailes of Fox. I think this will give you an idea about how to reframe your point. :-)

Maybe something like...

Anyone that opposes Bill Self is encouraging a terrorist strike on AFH.

Or...

Anyone that thinks Bill Self is a lousy recruiter is aiding and abetting the pardoning of convicted murders (note: the race of the murderers would of course depend on which demographic you are trying to appeal to).

It works for Roger, his agents, his clients, his boss Rupert Murdoch, and Fox's bottom line.

I don't see why it can't serve KU basketball just as well.

I'm kidding here, of course.

The legacy deserves the facts, even if they are sometimes not as conclusive, as yours seem to be here.

Mike Bratisax 4 years, 3 months ago

I was going to list NC's next to the coaches listed but I know you are aware of them. I can easily give up a few % points for a NC. What was Larry Browns percentage?

jaybate 4 years, 3 months ago

HEM,

As, Slayr has presented some informative facts, so have you. I am persuaded by you that without another add of a highly ranked prospect, this will in fact rank among the weakest classes, despite the numbers, he has recruited at KU.

But I also think it will be a good class to add quality players to next year and the next. By this I mean, I think some of these bigs will become solid muscle backups, which we have needed more of than we have had in the past.

Self has lost out on many top bigs the last few years for many reasons and has seemed to have chosen not to sign many lesser bigs, hoping instead to land a super big the next off season.

But I think coming up short handed last season, plus Butler's and VCU's successes with the lesser bigs, has persuaded him this year to sign the lesser bigs now and avoid ever getting short handed again. Top bigs are only going to be around for one season. They can't be cornerstones anymore than Josh Selby could be a cornerstone on the perimeter. You've got to have lots of the middling players and fit the superstars in where they turn up for a year.

Or you go all out Calipari and World Wide Wes.

Bottom line, there are so many injuries in college basketball, now that it is played like football on wood, that you have to stay fully stocked at all positions, even if some of them are just capable of applying muscle, and even if some of the kids get diguruntled with insufficient PT.

Early this past season, it seemed Self had too much depth to keep everyone happy. But by season's end, it became clear that KU would really have come unstuck with any fewer players. In fact, in the end, he didn't have enough bigs.

It would be great if he could land the superstar bigs all the time, but the teams that have been landing them haven't been doing significantly better than Self. Most haven't been matching his W&L Statements. And in the Madness, it doesn't really matter whether you go out in one, or get to the Finals, all that matters is if you win the ring when you get to the Finals.

jaybate 4 years, 3 months ago

When I look around the last 7-8 years, no one program has been dominating the winning of rings.

UCLA, chock full of top talent, went to the Final Four 3 straight times and came away empty.

Butler, without any top talent, went two straight times and came away empty.

UK/Memphis has had hordes of talent and come away empty every time.

Roy got two, but collapsed after his second.

Billy Donovan at Florida has gotten two and he did it with a combination of 2 star bigs and a lot of glue--a combo surprisingly like this past year's KU team, only with fewer injuries.

Everyone else one. Maybe Calhoun got two?

Regardless, it is no fun losing early.

But it is no fun losing late either.

It is no fun losing. Period.

Winning one occasionally, or frequently, is the only thing that really feels fun and makes the end of season losses tolerable at all.

And Self has won a ring, as many as anyone but Donovan and Roy, that last 8 seasons.

I gotta believe that had this past season's team been healthy for the Madness--Tyrel no foot problem, Selby no foot problem, and Withey healthy and strong enough to play at a respectable weight--that this past season's team would have won it all going away; that would have been two for Bill, too.

Cole's team probably would have won one, too, had he been at all healthy. That would have been three.

Health is something the gods control.

Wooden said his first ten teams could have won it a time or two, but for injuries and a few of his mistakes.

Self can say about the same thing at about the same stage of his career, though he can also say that he did win one.

So: I can take the unpredictable exits, especially with the sparkling W&L statements, because unlike so many others, Self won one ring in this stretch and is a decent bet to be entering into the prime of his coaching career, despite next year maybe being a tough season on the W&L statement.

Does this recruiting class being less than stellar so far mean curtains for KU this next season?

I am not sure. I am not sure even a great recruiting class can fill all the wholes this team will have due to losses to graduation and the NBA.

jaybate 4 years, 3 months ago

Calipari, landing a huge amount of the top talent each year, can't get a ring, so I'm not sure Self could get a ring with more 5 stars coming in.

But it sure would be better to try to patch the boat with more talent rather than less.

Mother jaybate didn't raise any fools that way.

Bottom line: I'm guessing Self is going to land one, maybe two more guys this season. If one of them is Deandre, it is a very strong class. And if he gets yet another four star, he is sitting pretty, given the good talent he has returning.

I am very bullish on Tyshawn, EJ and Travis by this stage of their careers.

I am very bullish on TRob, but he has the achilles heel of bad FT shooting, a heel that lets such players be highly successful, but also limits the number of rings they can win.

But even with all this bullishness, a lot of green wood is going to have to play and get seasoned the hard way, unless Withey proves a D1 player.

And developing green wood tends to lead to 24-27 win records even with good talent.

The difference in risk between relying on returning players and incoming freshmen, even if the returning players don't have so many stars, is huge. The incoming guy trigger a lot of early losses that the returning guys would miss, and at the end of the season, those incoming freshman, despite their trial by fire, are still physically only 18 year olds.

If we have to start a lot of freshman next year, no matter how many stars they have, it is going to be a 24-26 win season at best.

But if the freshman only have to support, then Self's flare for masking weaknesses can, as usual, take us farther than most suspect before the season starts.

But even then, this should be a 24-26 win team, at best, because of how many green guys are going to have to play significant minutes from the start and what a poor foul shooter TRob is. When your best big man can't hit fouls in XTReme Muscle Ball, he is going to be severely mugged all the time. That means this season is going to rest heavily on who is manning the other big spot. Bill and Danny have their work cut out for them. Withey is standing there due to become a player. The problem is: he was standing there due to become a player this season, and didn't. If Withey cannot become a credible 20 minute man, it could be a very, very tough season, maybe even 20, or fewer wins. I think they are sending Withey to Europe to see if he can.

jaybate 4 years, 3 months ago

If Withey can become credible, then Self has the makings of another "great team by March"--a team that could surprise us all as this past season's one did.

If Withey washes out, Self may finally get his Donovan and Roy come down season. The same kind of season Ratso Izzo got this past year.

Self is a human being afterall. I never claim he is super man. I claim he is a basketball genius at masking weaknesses and at playing a brand of ball that often confounds opponents and that often lets him win way more games than most other coaches could win with the same talent.

He is not better than Roy yet. And he is not better than Donovan yet, because they have won more rings the last eight seasons.

But he's damned good and getting better, not worse, even though the recruiting breaks may have gone temporarily against him.

As with this past season, the W&L statement of next year's team could vary considerably.

This past season's team exceeded Self's W&L expectations, but then failed to seize a moment and win a ring when the field of competition seemed to favor it by late in the season.

Next year's team has even more question marks than last season's team going in.

But it potentially has some very strong MUA type players in TT, EJ, Travis and TRob.

Alas, the five is a huge question mark and backups are vastly less experienced and there lies the core problems.

If Self wins 28 games with next year's team, it will be his greatest coaching job yet.

But if Withey becomes a player, he could do so.

None of the above alters the validity of your basic point however; that the recruits he has pulled in so are probably less talented coming in than some of his lesser classes in the past.

HawkKlaw 4 years, 3 months ago

Whoa...talk about a landslide victory!

Doubters?

nuleafjhawk 4 years, 3 months ago

drgnslayer - That's awesome! Well, I've always liked Self, but I may even like him better after seeing that. Thanks for putting that together.

HawkKlaw 4 years, 3 months ago

Bill Self landed the #1 recruit in the nation last year and the #8 recruit the previous year. Now all of the sudden he can't recruit? That's just a foolish notion.

Let's be realistic. The Morrii didn't declare until after the tournament loss. I think a lot of people are missing this point (though it only happened a couple months ago lol). If you'll recall, their decision was up in the air all season. Bill Self is great, but he can't read minds (especially if these minds haven't even decided what they are going to do). If the Morris twins knew for sure that they would go pro, they would have let Bill Self know. Bill Self and his staff, in turn, would have landed higher-rated recruits.

What happens next year when he lands a bunch of top 100 prospects? Some of you just like to complain about KU basketball for the sake of it. No matter what Self does, it will never be enough.

I'll pose this question (yet again): Who would you rather have coaching at KU? Coach Cal hasn't won any National Championships. Technically, 2011 was the first year he reached the Final Four. Good recruiting doesn't always equate to winning a National Championship for a program. A coach needs good players, a good strategy, good assistants, etc. Just because our recruiting class is weaker this year, it doesn't necessarily mean that KU can't win the Big 12 title (yet again) or the National title (yet again) next season. It just means we have a weaker recruiting class.

Don't take for granted that KU is already loaded with talent for next year. Maybe not as much talent as a school like KU is used to, but our core is solid: Tyshawn Taylor, Thomas Robinson, Elijah Johnson and Travis Releford. Add BMac and some role player-type big men to that and you've got a squad capable of doing great things. We may be a little weak at the 4 and 5 positions, but there won't be a better forward in the country than Thomas Robinson next season. Not to mention that Tyshawn will be one of the top 10 PGs in the country. That's saying a lot....and Bill Self recruited both of 'em, to my knowledge.

nuleafjhawk 4 years, 3 months ago

drgnslayr - thanks again for the info. As long as we're talking about great coaches, we would be remiss not to put ol' roy's name into the hat. His first 8 years (tournament success) at Kansas are as follows:

1996-1997 Sweet Sixteen #4 Arizona 85, #1 Kansas 82 Round 2 #8 Purdue 61, #1 Kansas 75 Round 1 #16 Jackson State 64, #1 Kansas 78

1995-1996 Elite Eight #4 Syracuse 60, #2 Kansas 57 Sweet Sixteen #3 Arizona 80, #2 Kansas 83 Round 2 #10 Santa Clara 51, #2 Kansas 76 Round 1 #15 South Carolina State 54, #2 Kansas 92

1994-1995 Sweet Sixteen #4 Virginia 67, #1 Kansas 58 Round 2 #8 Western Kentucky 70, #1 Kansas 75 Round 1 #16 Colgate 68, #1 Kansas 82

1993-1994 Sweet Sixteen #4 Kansas 78, #1 Purdue 83 Round 2 #5 Wake Forest 58, #4 Kansas 69 Round 1 #13 Chattanooga 73, #4 Kansas 102

1992-1993 Final Four #2 Kansas 68, #1 North Carolina 78 Elite Eight #2 Kansas 83, #1 Indiana 77 Sweet Sixteen #6 California 76, #2 Kansas 93 Round 2 #7 Brigham Young 76, #2 Kansas 90 Round 1 #15 Ball State 72, #2 Kansas 94

1991-1992 Round 2 #9 Texas-El Paso 66, #1 Kansas 60 Round 1 #16 Howard 67, #1 Kansas 100

1990-1991 Championship #3 Kansas 65, #2 Duke 72 Final Four #3 Kansas 79, #1 North Carolina 73 Elite Eight #3 Kansas 93, #1 Arkansas 81 Sweet Sixteen #3 Kansas 83, #2 Indiana 65 Round 2 #6 Pittsburgh 66, #3 Kansas 77 Round 1 #14 New Orleans 49, #3 Kansas 55

1989-1990 Round 2 #7 UCLA 71, #2 Kansas 70 Round 1 #15 Robert Morris 71, #2 Kansas 79

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