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Tuesday, April 3, 2007

Williams receives Hall pass

By Gary Bedore

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Baseball Hall of Famers who play for multiple teams must pick just one hat for their bronze plaque in Cooperstown, N.Y.

That said ... what would lifelong baseball fan Roy Williams do if the Naismith Memorial Hall of Fame had the same rule for its basketball enshrinees?

"I'd wear a 'Tar-hawk' hat. There'd be two different shades of blue," current North Carolina and former Kansas University coach Williams said Monday after being named a member of the Basketball Hall's Class of 2007.

He will be joined by Los Angeles Lakers coach Phil Jackson, the 1966 NCAA champions from Texas Western, former University of Mississippi and Houston Comets coach Van Chancellor, referee Mendy Rudolph and international coaches Fedro Ferrandiz and Mirko Novosel at induction ceremonies on Sept. 7 in Springfield, Mass.

"Some people at Kansas or North Carolina might get mad, but I feel very blessed to have worked at both places," Williams stated. "At Kansas it was 15 years of great players, assistant coaches and great friends."

"Some people are still upset at me. The ones really close to me understand everything," added Williams, who angered Jayhawk nation by leaving for his alma mater four seasons ago.

"If it does upset some people," he said of crediting both schools, "they are getting upset about the truth. I don't think you should get upset about the truth."

Williams, who has coached in five Final Fours, is a combined 524-131 in 19 seasons at KU and North Carolina, and has reached 18 straight NCAA tournaments. He won the national title his second season at UNC.

"I do feel at home at North Carolina," the Asheville, N.C., native said. "I've probably got thinner skin than most people, but when they make an announcement about North Carolina's score at Allen Fieldhouse and people cheer, I get that information quickly. That bothers me a great deal. It will bother me the rest of my life.

"I had a guy here on the street yesterday (in Atlanta), right outside the church, say, 'Roy, I'm a Kansas fan.' I said, 'I am too.' He said, 'Thanks for 15 great years.' I'm trying to focus more on those kinds of feelings."

Williams talked a lot about KU as well as UNC in interview sessions in both Atlanta and Chapel Hill, N.C., on Monday.

"The success that Bill (Self) is having, the great clubs he's had there, that is helping," Williams said. "They love to win there. The passion KU feels about basketball is maybe unmatched."

Former KU coach Roy Williams heads to 'Hall'

Today, the Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame inducted seven new members, including former KU head coach Roy Williams.

He thanked former KU athletic director Bob Frederick for hiring him - "Bob's wife, Margey said, 'You're not going to hire that guy from North Carolina are you?''' Williams cracked - as well as all his players and assistants.

"My first team - Kevin (Pritchard), Milt (Newton), Mark Randall, Jeff Gueldner, Scooter (Barry), all those guys ... about two weeks into practice we got hit with probation. Those kids would not be able to try to defend the national championship they won the year before," Williams said of the returning players from the '88 title team. "The talk we had with those kids about getting through the season and playing for ourselves and love of the game ... the way those kids reacted and gave me a chance was very important to me. I remember things like the 1997 Senior Day, what Jacque (Vaughn) and Jerod (Haase) said (in their senior speeches) was extremely important to me."

Williams, 56, said he's shocked he made the Hall on his first try.

"It's not sunk in yet," he said. "It is mind-boggling to me. I'm extremely flattered, flabbergasted too."

Former KU athletic director Frederick on Monday said he was "thrilled to death" upon learning of Williams' selection.

"Obviously it's a testimony to the great job he's done since 1988," Frederick said. "I figured with the record he had in the 1990s, once he got the national championship, it would mean he'd receive that honor soon. He's been a great friend and colleague and I feel good for him."

Former KU player and assistant coach Jerry Waugh, who also is a good friend of Williams, said: "Can you think of a more deserving candidate? Roy's success speaks for itself. He came to Kansas as a neophyte and in 15 years won 80 percent of his games. The quality of kids that came through his program remains very important to me."

Williams joins his mentor Dean Smith in the Hall.

"I attended in 1982 when coach Smith was inducted. He ended up getting in 15 more years after that," Williams said of the UNC coaching legend and former KU player. "I don't know if I'll go that long. I want to quit one year in advance of dying. I want to see if I can play 36 holes a day every day for a year. I'd like to have one full year off before I go to the other side of the divot."

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Comments

yates33333 (anonymous) says...

Be nice to know the names of the committee members who selected the inductees. Too bad Eddie Sutton doesn't have friends in high places.

April 3, 2007 at 7:02 a.m. ( | suggest removal )

kc_wildfire (anonymous) says...

Congratulations Roy! It couldn't happen to a nicer guy.

April 3, 2007 at 7:13 a.m. ( | suggest removal )

Chicago_JHawk (anonymous) says...

A deserved honor for Coach Williams. Congrats! Winning 80% of games for 19 years is incredible.

April 3, 2007 at 7:38 a.m. ( | suggest removal )

jross1972 (Joe Ross) says...

Congrats to Coach Williams. Yates...Sutton DOES have friends in high places, I can assure you of that.

April 3, 2007 at 7:44 a.m. ( | suggest removal )

sportdan30 (anonymous) says...

Congrats Roy. Thank you for 15 wonderful years at KU. Well deserved.

April 3, 2007 at 7:54 a.m. ( | suggest removal )

86finalfour (anonymous) says...

This is a much deserved honor for one of the most consistent winners in college history. And I agree with him that those who are upset with him and his leaving are upset about the truth.

April 3, 2007 at 8:14 a.m. ( | suggest removal )

nergie (anonymous) says...

Thanks coach, your success is well deserved

April 3, 2007 at 8:28 a.m. ( | suggest removal )

The_Original_Bob (anonymous) says...

Congrats Roy. Now drop the TarHawk nonsense.

Eddie is going to have a hard time getting in. He's a cheater.

April 3, 2007 at 8:29 a.m. ( | suggest removal )

FlaHawk (anonymous) says...

Roy you always proved to be a winner onthe court and almost all of the times off the court!

KU Is lucky to have had you and vice versa. You are a true example of someone that came up form no where and had a dreamand relentlessly followed it.

I know you were tempted in 2000 and finally sucuumed in 2003. Ihave lived inthe SE USA for 25 of my last 30 eyars and would love the opportunity to return to KU or KC for that matter. They just don't pay enough to make the transition any more.

You got to go home now enjoy your honor and let get behind Coach Self!

Go Hawks!

April 3, 2007 at 9:02 a.m. ( | suggest removal )

FlaHawk (anonymous) says...

I like Jay-Heel better than Tar-Hawk! You see a true heel is the ass end if you are a Wolfpack, Deacon, Dukie or other ACC school alumni/follower!

Only in politically correct Kansas would you say Tar-Hawk!

Go Hawks!

April 3, 2007 at 9:05 a.m. ( | suggest removal )

Jaminrawk (anonymous) says...

It's unfortunate we couldn't have won one of those Final Fours with Roy, but hey the guy was very important to the growth of our program. I mean for a first-time head coach to go to a program that lost it's head coach, best player and then was going on probation? Who would have though that he would take the program to an even higher level (minus the championships)? Congrats Roy, and thanks for remembering where your head coaching legacy started.

April 3, 2007 at 9:10 a.m. ( | suggest removal )

jarrodf (anonymous) says...

Way to go Coach! Congrats! We are so grateful for the 15 years you gave. I wish you all the best at UNC!

Rock Chalk!!

April 3, 2007 at 9:11 a.m. ( | suggest removal )

jhawker137 (anonymous) says...

He gets upset about us cheering when North Carolina is losing. WTF? Thank God you left for North Carolina, you dragged KU Basketball down for long enough. Finally we have a legit oppurtunity to really win the big one. Bill Self has an open seat for an assistant, maybe Matt Dougherty would like to bring his great recruiting talent that won North Carolina a Championship to Kansas. The possibilities would be endless, and it would be just enough of the middle finger to make Dean Smith & Roy Williams stay up late at night.
Congrat's on getting into the Hall of Fame.
Dickie V, must have kissed your ass on national TV just enough to get himself uninvited this year.
To the rest of the Jayhawk faithful, I know that you are going to say something about how great Benedict was when he was here, that is great. I don't care, he left with his tail between his legs, and lost us two national championships because Dean Smith could not keep his GD nose out of Kansas business during the Final Fours.
I would not pee in his mouth if his guts were on fire.
Man this feels really good to vent, just let it out, let it out!!!!!!!!!

April 3, 2007 at 9:17 a.m. ( | suggest removal )

notabandwagonfan (anonymous) says...

one thing is for sure.............sutton has had friends in low places for years......................LOL probably shouldnt have said that, but i couldn't resist. Now to this roy williams busniness..........Congratulations. However, i guess I dont understand why he gets so upset that Kansas fans get mad at him. Let me tell it like this.......I had this girlfriend that I cared a great deal for about 5 years ago. Now we no longer speak, and i hear she loves to talk smack about me behind my back. I dont care, because I have moved on. Roy should do the same, and so should the rest of us. It sure doesn't make it any easier when these people post these damn articles. Its like salt in the wound! A tar-hawk? Flahawk said it right.........It should be a Jay-heel. He got his FIRST head coaching job at Kansas, so then Jay should come before Tar. Plain and simple!

April 3, 2007 at 9:19 a.m. ( | suggest removal )

jhawker137 (anonymous) says...

Couranna1 did you go to UNC a full year to learn to spell such a big word like schmuck, or is that Freshman level smack talk?

April 3, 2007 at 9:32 a.m. ( | suggest removal )

typobox43 (anonymous) says...

Am I the only one who thinks it's too early in his career for him to be making it into the Hall? I do believe that he would deserve to be there at some point in the future, but he's "only" coached for 19 years. If he wants to, he could keep going for that long in the future. It just seems that there's a lot more to this story to be written, and maybe we should wait to see how things play out before enshrining him.

April 3, 2007 at 9:36 a.m. ( | suggest removal )

jhawker137 (anonymous) says...

So you are an educated ass, thanks for letting us know. Carry on killer of imagination & social conformist.
Hope you had better than a 3.8 grade-point average, because you sound like a well spoken person, ha ha ha!!!!

April 3, 2007 at 9:47 a.m. ( | suggest removal )

Jaminrawk (anonymous) says...

Let it go. No one is happy he left like he did (except Tar-Heel fans). If we always throw out insults and gripe about it, then we sound like a jealous ex-boyfriend who should get over it. We didn't lose to Syracuse because Roy's job situation was a distraction. If Roy being courted by UNC was that much of a distraction, we wouldn't have made it to the championship game. If questions about your coach coming back were an excuse for losing, Florida wouldn't have won last night. We lost because we couldn't buy a freethrow and Jerry McNamara went nuts from three.

Let's stop talking about Roy and get behind Self.

April 3, 2007 at 9:48 a.m. ( | suggest removal )

jhawker137 (anonymous) says...

Here Here Jaminrawk!!!

April 3, 2007 at 9:51 a.m. ( | suggest removal )

JayCeph (anonymous) says...

KU beats Florida beats UCLA beats KU beats Florida...

Rock - Paper - Scissors

April 3, 2007 at 10:01 a.m. ( | suggest removal )

jhawker137 (anonymous) says...

Yeah, I can read, web-site toughguy. You must be one of those control freaks that has to have eveyone agree completely with you, and anyone that disagrees is pushed away, shoved out into the cold of your heartless being. It is okay give your parents a call, tell them that you love them, they will tell you the same back, and we can all let the healing begin.
Until then take you medicine Nurse Ratchet, and leave the true educated to their conversation. Back to pulling your hair psycho!!!

April 3, 2007 at 10:04 a.m. ( | suggest removal )

lalawguy (anonymous) says...

I support Roy Williams, but I could never support North Carolina basketball. North Carolina just "happened" to fire Matt Dougherty right when Kansas was on the verge of winning a national championship. That provided just enough of a distraction to keep Coach Williams 4 points from winning his first national title. I don't blame Roy for leaving; I know a lot was going on with his family in NC when he received the offer. But I can't forgive North Carolina for taking that title from Kansas.

Regardless, I am happy that Roy Williams has found his place in the basketball hall of fame, and that he is giving credit to the school that took a chance on a first-time head coach. Thanks for the memories, Coach!

April 3, 2007 at 10:11 a.m. ( | suggest removal )

jhawker137 (anonymous) says...

See couranna1, there are several other people that feel the way I do, they just keep their feelings inside, and do not pour them completely onto the paper.
Who is the moron now?!!!

April 3, 2007 at 10:15 a.m. ( | suggest removal )

LAJayhawk5 (anonymous) says...

Jhawker137, go to the SUCK IT corner with the rest of the clowns. Roy did great things here (as will HCBS) and should be congratulated for his success. Acknowledging the past doesnt' diminish excitement for our future with Coach Self.

April 3, 2007 at 10:18 a.m. ( | suggest removal )

The_Original_Bob (anonymous) says...

Good for Roy and whatever, but I'll be damned if I'm ever cheering for UNC.

April 3, 2007 at 10:18 a.m. ( | suggest removal )

jhawker137 (anonymous) says...

LAJayhawk5,
You must not have read all my of my message, I congradulated him for making the hall of fame. But, "Acknowledging the past doesnt' diminish excitement for our future with Coach Self." What the hell does this have to do with anything. I support Bill Self more than the rest of you wagonhoppers, and don't try to hide that you have not bashed on Coach Self on here, I have read it time and time again. I have nothing to do at this moment, and am going to find past bashings that you have made, if you wish to continue this?

April 3, 2007 at 10:22 a.m. ( | suggest removal )

jhawker137 (anonymous) says...

couranna1, I think all the thinking that you are having to do with these conversations has finally got to you. Take a nap or something, clear your head, get all the voices talking at the same time to quite down, before you get on here and try to run with the Adults.

April 3, 2007 at 10:35 a.m. ( | suggest removal )

kerbyd (anonymous) says...

I think Roy did a good job here but why are the jersey's of his players already hanging in the fieldhouse? Shouldn't that be something that time should take care of?

April 3, 2007 at 10:40 a.m. ( | suggest removal )

jhawker137 (anonymous) says...

Lunch crowd starting to show up at McDonalds? I'll take fries with that!!!!!

April 3, 2007 at 10:54 a.m. ( | suggest removal )

robot (Robin Smith) says...

Roy did a great job in his fifteen years and won a lot of games at KU, so congrats to him. (15 years that are largely responsible for HOF induction)

But the end of his tenure was shameful. He stopped recruiting as if he knew he was going to leave. After bringing in the class of Miles, Simien, Langford, Lee he goes on to recruit Graves, Hawkins, Moody, Niang, Vinson, Bahe - it does not appear he was building for the future. Dougherty was on thin ice to begin with having to follow Smith and an intelligent guy like Roy would have known his chance would come again unless Dougherty pulled it together and won it all (which is unfairly harsh standards).

Now, I don't think the job opening distraction is why KU lost the championship. Like someone else said FT's and GMAC are why.

Roy's decision would go over better if it weren't so darn suspicious and if it didn't result from the demise of his own disciple and if he had recruited some players and not left sanctions and if he would stop blubbering about how sensitive he is.

It may seem as if I have a grudge but I don't, believe me. The case for holding a grudge isn't too flimsy though. And there would be many others holding a grudge if it weren't for the wonderful job the HCBS is doing.

April 3, 2007 at 11:20 a.m. ( | suggest removal )

97jhawk (anonymous) says...

Roy is a putz who has no nuts. If he did, he wouldn't have left like he did. Very shameful. I think if you did something like that in Japan you'd have to commit Seppuku. Sure, he gave us 15 great yrs, but it was pretty much wiped away in 15min when he double-backed on his word to stay and finish his so called career at KU.

People are most upset with the fashion in which he carried out his vacancy from KU. A lot has to be said about a man's character by his actions. Funny thing is, if he had won the NCAA Championship that year and then left would some fans be as angered as they are? Would that have been a more honorable exit down the yellow brick road? Who knows. All we know is that the guy went from "I don't give a sh*t about North Carolina" to your sonny boy is home Dean. Knowing how Roy is, you'd be a fool to think otherwise if you didn't think the UNC deal was a distraction.

It's like the new addage goes, "Why play with Roy when we can play with our Self?" Bill is here to stay and is proud to be here. I don't even think his alma mater of OSU could pull him away.

April 3, 2007 at 11:54 a.m. ( | suggest removal )

JayCeph (anonymous) says...

Don't be so sure...

April 3, 2007 at 11:58 a.m. ( | suggest removal )

Neom (anonymous) says...

Roy Wiliams does not deserve it, yet. He has proved nothing. He could not win a NC for 15 years at one of the top 5 programs, his only NC was with the players he did not recruit. Let him win a NC with his own players before people can say he is truely great.

April 3, 2007 at 12:41 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

jhawks (anonymous) says...

He does deserve it... but can we move on to another front page story. If we don't get rid of the Tar heal logo on the opening page I'm going to PUKE!!!!!

April 3, 2007 at 12:48 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

kuhawksr1 (anonymous) says...

You're welcome, Roy. Bob Frederick should get all the credit. He took a chance on a daggum nincompoot assistant from UNC and the KU 'system' enabled your sucess while you were here. You couldn't have had better help getting on your feet. Good training by Dean alone wouldn't have done it.

April 3, 2007 at 12:50 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

JayCeph (anonymous) says...

Here here, jhawks! Something else please! Move along... nothing to see here.

April 3, 2007 at 12:50 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

Jacobpaul81 (anonymous) says...

Roy gets in. Does he deserve it? Sure. Does Eddie Sutton deserve it? Just as much. Am I complaining? No. Am I happy Roy's gone. Yes. Do I cheer when North Carolina loses? Yes. Did I cheer when UNC was losing back when Roy was at Kansas? Yes. Has anything changed? No. In fact, there isn't a team in the ACC or SEC I'd cheer for. Why? Cause Im a kansas fan, and I cheer against our competition.

That being said, one comment above was completly incorrect. Someone made the statement that there is an open seat on the KU bench for an assistant coach. However, if they'd actually kept up, they'd realize there is not an empty seat on the Bench. Danny Manning signed on as an Assistant Coach.

April 3, 2007 at 1:16 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

KU (anonymous) says...

I'm with OriginalBob: Nice job Roy. It was fun. But I'll be damned before I root for UNC! Why would a KU fan root for another team in the Top 5 programs in history? Don't we want to surpass UNC on the list of "most wins in program history"?

To Robot: Roy didn't give up recruiting after Miles/Simeon/Langford/Lee. (Beside, what kind of class is THAT compared with Self's class of Wright, Rush, and Chalmers? Or Arthur and Bulldog Collins?)

Roy hated recruiting so much that he took every other year off from recruiting at a high level because it was beneath him to build a relationship with someone who might choose another school. He's doing the same thing a UNC. Roy NEVER had back-to-back great recruiting classes that I can think of. Certainly nothing to compare to Self's Freshmen and Sophomores.

April 3, 2007 at 2:37 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

KU (anonymous) says...

97jay: I sure hope KU is using your quote in their initial mailing to prospective recruits! That's a classic: "Why play with Roy when we can play with our Self?" I'm still laughing.........

April 3, 2007 at 2:44 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

hawkfan4life (anonymous) says...

ruck foy!!!

April 3, 2007 at 2:46 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

bmcmich1 (anonymous) says...

Wow, great point KU--a college coach, when recruiting, is essentially a salesman, and one thing about sales is that you can't get your feelings hurt or take it personally every time someone tells you "no" or goes with a competitor. I'm not saying that's exactly why Roy doesn't recruit as well as Bill, but it's a pretty darn valid theory that Roy got too emotionally involved with recruits and just couldn't take it if they rebuked him. It's not out of the question to think that every other year he just didn't feel up to the potential letdowns of recruits that spurned him, so he went with the sure shots who might not have been as talented. Not that that is necessarily a bad thing, but it could be an explanation for the off-and-on recruiting classes. Interesting...

April 3, 2007 at 2:52 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

caddie733 (anonymous) says...

No one is asking anyone to root for UNC, so why are people saying "I'll be damned before I root for UNC!" If you can't realize what kind of job Roy did here, then you're not a real KU fan.

Also, who can honestly blame the guy for leaving? (yeah, it was kind of messed up that he stayed and then left the second time it was offered, but he gave 2 valid reasons as to why he did that: 1) because he never thought the job would be offered again, 2) for Kirk and Nick) For all of those here who are huge KU fans and bashing Roy, think of this. Imagine if you were coaching somewhere and was offered the job at KU, not once but twice...if this was your hometown, your dream job, and you are as big a fan as you say you are...you would take the job, no matter what. The fact that Roy didn't leave the first time the job was offered said a lot and showed how much he did/does care for KU. But let's be real...he was always a Carolina guy. We should all praise him for the great job he did here...if you boo him or hate him, you are hating part of KU.

April 3, 2007 at 3:04 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

jross1972 (Joe Ross) says...

Caddie...good call.

April 3, 2007 at 3:05 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

BigTamale (anonymous) says...

Jacobpaul81...

Very well said.

Here are some of observations I have;

Roy was insturmental in KU's success post 1988
Bill will be instrumental in KU's success post 2003

We Rooted for Roy when he was a Jayhawk
We dont root for Roy at North Carolina
We Didn't root for Self at Tulsa, Illinois, or Oral Roberts
We Root for Self at Kansas

More Points:
We are not being asked to chose someone to love more or root for between Roy and Bill.

Just cause Roy is gone doesn't mean some people have to stop cheering for Roy.

I personally don't because Roy is not a jayhawk!
i personally cheer and root for Bill because he is a Jayhawk!!

Last Points:
I still cheer and root for former jayhawks... Kirk, Nic, Drew, Paul, etc... (their situation is different)

roy has been gone for 4 years...why must we always go down this road!!

April 3, 2007 at 3:09 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

BigTamale (anonymous) says...

Congrats to Roy, I am sure he deserves it.

April 3, 2007 at 3:11 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

hawkitup (anonymous) says...

I don't think Roy will ever win another National Championship. He simply can't finish the job with his "own" players.

April 3, 2007 at 3:27 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

JayCeph (anonymous) says...

I like shiny things.

April 3, 2007 at 3:33 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

bswen (anonymous) says...

Congrats, Roy, and thanks for 15 fun years. Your admission to the Hall is inarguably deserved, despite the idiot fans that are the true responsible parties for "dragging down KU basketball for long enough." As soon as I saw this article online I knew the idiots would be out in full force. They do it to Bill, too. Effin' idiots.

I wish you continued years of success... except against the Jayhawks, of course, in which case I hope we crush your team.

April 3, 2007 at 4:14 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

jross1972 (Joe Ross) says...

Roy bashers must look at the comments in ever growing support of Roy and realize their opinion will soon be in the minority at Kansas. Time heals all wounds, and there is destined to come a day where Roy is received with an ovation back at Kansas. It will happen.

Thanks Coach Williams!

April 3, 2007 at 4:25 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

Strikewso (anonymous) says...

It is true, Roy recruits great kids who do well in his system and provide many winning seasons. However teams like his get caught by the end of the season by the more athletic teams, hence many March disappointments. His only teams to make it to the Final 4 were the athletic ones that had clutch players making three pointers - like the one he inherited an UNC.

April 3, 2007 at 4:27 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

notabandwagonfan (anonymous) says...

hey BigTamale, if Bob Huggins was coach at Kansas, would you root for him? I would go to church every single day, and pray to god to get that dousche bag fired. I cannot stand bob thuggins, and I hate every ounce of that mans ideals and teachings. Go Roy, Go Self, Go Larry Brown, Go Ted Owens, Go James Naismith, Go Phog Allen............Screw Dean Smith, Screw Adolph Rupp, and Screw anyone who supports those a$$holes!

April 3, 2007 at 5:46 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

The_Original_Bob (anonymous) says...

I'll be damned before I root for UNC.

April 3, 2007 at 7:34 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

KU (anonymous) says...

Caddie......Read Original Bob's and my FULL posts before you pop off with your Roy lovefest, you idiot. We both said "nice job Roy", which means we DID acknowledge the great things he did at KU.

Why did we bring up "rooting for UNC"? Because it was pertinent. In Bedore's article Roy says it bugs him when he hears that people cheer at KU when they hear UNC is getting beat.

News Flash: Get over it Roy. We KU fans do not owe you and your UNC team any allegiance and Bob and I both expressed our opinion that we'll be damned before we root for UNC.

We are KU fans.

April 3, 2007 at 8:04 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

BigTamale (anonymous) says...

Bandwagon...

I don't think KU would be stupid enough to hire Thuggins. Just like they wouldn't hire Richard Simmons as Strength and Conditions trainer or Ted Kazinski as a Math Professor.

PS--You forgot W.O. Hamilton and Dick Harp in you "GO" rant.

April 3, 2007 at 8:50 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

notabandwagonfan (anonymous) says...

sorry tamale, im only 21 years old..........forgive me for not getting them all. LOL Also, I would hope Perkins would NEVER do such a thing, but I love the comparisons. But my point was, would you root for thuggins if he was at ku? If perkins was so dumb, I seriously would pack up all my belongings, move to chappel hill, north carolina myself, and then by season tickets to the tar heel games. Last but not least, I would have to burn all of my jayhawks items. That would leave me with about 10 belongings left. Oh my god, lets pray that never, ever happens.

April 3, 2007 at 9:19 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

BigTamale (anonymous) says...

Only 10 Belongings left? Thats funny.

I get the question...but why worry about it cause it would never happen.

A hire that like would never get beyond Alumni and the boosters who write the Big Checks to the AD.

So here's my Politician's answer: I will always cheer and be a fan of Jayhawk Basketball.

April 3, 2007 at 10:34 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

kickazzkurtz (anonymous) says...

I don't root for UNC because we are chasing them for titles and wins. I don't like how Roy left and how our own Dean Smith was backstabbing his former player Daughtery just to get Roy.

I could care less about UNC, but I only root against them because I want KU to have more championships, final fours and wins etc.

I don't like seeing Roy on the front of KUsports.com with a freakin UNC banner behind him that is for sure! If your gonna give Roy a story make it a small one at best. He isn't our coach any more.

April 3, 2007 at 11:12 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

countryjayhawk (anonymous) says...

I for one will stand and applaud at Allen Fieldhouse the day Roy comes back, and we all know that day will happen at some point. I am however a little disappointed in how some of us still curse him and call him a "snake" and a "backstabber". What does that say about us as fans?

I was just as upset about anyone, i would say that is the most choked up and upset i have ever been in anything relating to the Jayhawks (that includes the Arizona loss, Syracuse loss). I loved Roy, I didn't want him to leave. But as time went on I came to realize that Roy was following his dream, and i respect him for that, i may not have agreed with his decesion but i certainly understand it. I remember when he announced he was leaving he was in tears. He wanted to be in both places, he didnt want to disappoint anyone, but unfortuantely life doesnt work that way. If he didnt give a flip about us he would have left and not done anything (like when Ben Howland left Pitt). He was man enought to stick around and explain his decesion and we need to respect that. Up to this day he has not said one bad thing about Kansas even when he knows what people are saying here about him. Some of you forget all that he did for this university and for this state. Yeah ill admit it stings too see him win a NC at UNC, but he followed his dream and ill bet a lot of you on here would have done the exact same thing. I think the first time he stayed at this University in 2000 he did it mostly because of us the fans, and his players. Maybe he really did want to go but he didnt want to do that to us. The second time around he was probably thinking the same thing, except maybe someone told him "Roy, do what you want to do, you deserve to make what ever decesion you want to make". So I think all of you who curse him and act like he didnt do anything for KU need to really think about what your saying. Roy always said that the people who made fun of him getting emotional after games would make fun of him in the media, but nobody ever did it to his face, that is because they respected him too much. So you can disagree with his decesion all you want, but that does not give us the right to be dissrespectful. I however do not care about cheering for teams agaisnt UNC at Allen Fieldhouse, Roy should know, do we ever cheer for another "big team" that we are constantly competing with for top spot in the country.

April 3, 2007 at 11:59 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

actorman (anonymous) says...

You're welcome, Roy. Bob Frederick should get all the credit. He took a chance on a daggum nincompoot assistant from UNC and the KU 'system' enabled your sucess while you were here. You couldn't have had better help getting on your feet. Good training by Dean alone wouldn't have done it.

__________________________________________________________

In the long litany of idiotic Roy-bashing posts, this is one of the most moronic. The KU system????? What the hell are you talking about? You mean the system that had losing seasons in Ted Owens' last two years? Or is it the one that had KU on probation?

Roy took a team that had a great tradition and history but that had not consistently had a shot at the Final Four or been in the top 10 (other than in the last few years under Larry Brown), and he took it to a level it had never seen before. The only thing missing was a healthy Jerrod Haase, a few free throws (and a better officiating job) against Syracuse, and a few more shots falling in '91 against Duke, among many other heartbreakers. For you to say the KU system "enabled his success" puts you at a level of stupidity that most people can't even imagine.

April 4, 2007 at 12:32 a.m. ( | suggest removal )

yates33333 (anonymous) says...

Eddie is a cheater, and, yes, all the other members are as pure as the driven snow. Grow up.

April 4, 2007 at 6:59 a.m. ( | suggest removal )

JayCeph (anonymous) says...

For those of you that think anyone who posts a critical statement of Roy equates dismissing what he did while he was at KU or what he did for the school (and what the school did for him) are just plain missing the context of the remarks.

It is not a 'love me, love my dog' scenario where everything is black and white. I think many of the comments have been very clear as to what people took exception to and most of it centers on how Roy left and what he said. The other stuff (his history with the school and the team) are never in question.

You act like those who criticize Nixon forget what he did for global trade and the 'opening up' of China.

One does not co-opt the other. Good historical track-records. Bad exits. Plain and simple.

April 4, 2007 at 10:04 a.m. ( | suggest removal )

KU (anonymous) says...

Well put, JayCeph. And I'll be damned before I root for UNC. Not because I disrespect Roy, but because I'm a KU fan and I want to pass UNC on the list of "all-time wins in program history". Not because I hate Roy, but because I wish KU could win every game and it were possible for there to be two losers in every game between UNC and Dookie....or Kentucky.......or UCLA. Not because I fail to appreciate what happened during the Roy years, but because "I'm a Jay, Jay, Jay, Jay Jayhawk Up At Lawrence, On The Kaw!"

April 4, 2007 at 10:20 a.m. ( | suggest removal )

jross1972 (Joe Ross) says...

Jayceph. We'd just like to see a little parity is all. If people are gonna post critical statements of Roy, they should do it about other KU coaches as well. And personally, I think this puts people on a slippery slope of trampling on tradition.

But "...the Earth is changing. I feel it in the water. I feel it in the Earth. I smell it in the air."

Roy supporters are a growing chorus and regardless of the feelings and circumstances on either side about why and how he left, there will come a day where he is welcomed back here and rightly so! This is the answer to those who (ironically) criticize his supporters about bringing up the PAST (at KANSAS, no less)! The future will see Roy received at Allen to a standing ovation, and will be a just vindication when it is all said and done.

April 4, 2007 at 10:41 a.m. ( | suggest removal )

JayCeph (anonymous) says...

I'm not sure what needs to be vindicated but, like you, I assume he'll return in due time to a 'respectable' welcome.

Had he stayed, and continued to win and maintain the strong relationship he had built with Jay-Nation, I would be willing to bet that he would've had the floor/court named after him, cementing him in the legacy of KU BBall. (William's court @ Allen Fieldhouse... had a nice ring to it)

As it stands, he left and his legacy followed (thusly). When one becomes the face of program and then that face is turned, people will recoil.

It isn't time for him to return. The earth is still scorched and scars are too fresh (especially considering that he now has a NC at NC... ooooh, that burns). That day will come, but not for some time. He shouldn't be shocked by this though. Its human nature.

April 4, 2007 at 11:04 a.m. ( | suggest removal )

KU (anonymous) says...

jross......Your opinion of yourself as the Arbiter of Jayhawk Morality (always telling people how we OUGHT to feel and speak) and the Keeper of Jayhawk Tradition (as if Jayhawk Tradition would be snuffed out if it weren't for your self-righteous rants) really gets under my skin.

One of the reasons nobody comments negatively on "other KU coaches" (as you suggest that we MUST do if we make a comment that can be construed as tangentially disrespectful of Roy) is because Bedore didn't write an article about Larry.....or Ted.....or Phog. He wrote an article about Roy and, to add insult to injury, the Journal had the audacity to put a Carolina backdrop in the splash page of KU Sports. The subject of the day was Roy Williams, not Larry, Ted, or Phog.

Another reason Roy comes up more often is that Roy's tenure was so recent.

April 4, 2007 at 11:23 a.m. ( | suggest removal )

kickazzkurtz (anonymous) says...

The players at Carolina in 2000 when Roy turned down UNC the first time compared to 2003 were drastically different. I think the talent that Matt brought UNC was the tipping point for Roy. That and the fact that his golfing buddy was fired and he didn't like it.

Anybody who thinks otherwise is blinded by thier love for Roy. Dean didn't go back to KU, Wooden didn't go back to Purdue, Knight never went back to Ohio St. etc. Plenty of coaches don't go back to their Alma Matter. It will be interesting to see what Huggins does with West Virginia.

I think that maybe it is better to have a coach who doesn't stay to long and build a legacy. It just makes it to difficult for fans to move on and the next coach to do his thing. Winning a championship, 5 conference titles and 70% of his games basically got Tubby forced out at Kentucky. All set up by what Pitino had done. Self could easily find himself in the same situation in the next few years as well.

April 4, 2007 at 11:31 a.m. ( | suggest removal )

jross1972 (Joe Ross) says...

KU.

Weak arguments.

First of all, it's clear you haven't been here long. There have been countless articles that had nothing to do with Roy Williams that ended up addressing him in these posts. Conversation has a funny way of making those segues. Therefore to point out the inequity or disproportionality of posts that criticize him versus few that criticize others (who were MORE deserving as targets of criticism) is not incongruent with a reasonable handle on the situation.

Secondly, you accuse me of telling people how to ought to think and feel. In this regard I am not unlike a great many others who offer their opinion, including you. In one of your posts you offered this to a poster with a dissenting opinion:

"Eat your words. Why don't you move to North Carolina if you're such a big Roy Williams fan?"

In this argument you are (1) telling him what he SHOULD do and (2) you implicity spell out what he should be feeling. Have you ever heard of the pot calling the kettle black? There are other incidents as well, this is not isolated. Please check your hypocrisy at the door.

Third, you are just as biased in your stance against Roy as I am in support of him. I will not be dissuaded therefore by your pretense at objectivity.

Fourthly, you are probably reeling from the tussle we got into several weeks ago in which you got BURNED and looked quite foolish arguing with yourself about what you said and did not say in what must have been for you a very confusing time. I'll be happy to post it here if you need the reminder.

Fifthly, I really--and I do mean this: "REALLY"--do not care if you are or are not offended by what I say. It will not change how or what I offer here. If I make a moral assertion and you take a stance against it then you are making one as well.

Checkmate, friend.

April 4, 2007 at 1:53 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

JayCeph (anonymous) says...

You guys don't sound like friends... what's going on here? :)

April 4, 2007 at 2:26 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

caddie733 (anonymous) says...

KU...you are the true idiot here. I did read your posts, and the reason I mentioned the "rooting for UNC" angle as not being pertinent was this: Even though Roy said it bugs him that people here cheer when they see UNC is losing, he never mentioned that he wanted people to root for UNC. That's why I said nobody (not Roy or anyone else) is asking you to root for UNC, and that's why it made no sense to say "I'll be damned if I root for UNC!"

Obviously we are not going to root for UNC, you don't need to state the obvious when it was never even asked of you. The main point to my post was simple (it was not a Roy lovefest), I was merely stating that hating and bashing Roy does no KU fan any good because that means you are hating a part of KU itself. If parents (like Nick Collison's father) can completely support Roy's decision, then I think us "normal" fans with nothing really invested can as well, don't you?

April 4, 2007 at 2:27 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

Strikewso (anonymous) says...

Remember that whole to-do about Roy yelling at the ROTC cadets doing the honor guard at the KU games. As they were marching off the court he told them to "Hurry up!" What a jerk he can be, and his success certainly did go to his head.

April 4, 2007 at 4:10 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

KU (anonymous) says...

jross,

Nothing you said changes the fact that you believe you are the Conscience and Arbiter of Jayhawk Morality and The Keeper of Jayhawk Tradition.

Your self-righteous act is beginning to wear very thin.......almost as thin as Roy's self-proclaimed thin skin.

April 4, 2007 at 7:43 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

KU (anonymous) says...

Caddie.....No, no.........no. YOU are the idiot. Have you ever heard of the term "imply"? Roy's mention that it hurts his little feelings when KU fans cheer when UNC is getting beat (see choke against Georgetown) implied that he expects KU fans to root for UNC. An "implication" is when someone expresses a sentiment without actually saying it in so many words.

Therefore, the "rooting for UNC angle" WAS pertinent.

And I'll be damned before I every root for UNC.

April 4, 2007 at 7:48 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

KU (anonymous) says...

jross.......You must lead a pretty pathetic life if you LIVE vicariously through this board so fully that you actually remember anything I said three weeks ago verbatim (or had the time to research it). Why would I be "reeling" from a comment by some loser that gets his self-worth from a message board? I just laugh at your silly self-righteous act every time I get under your skin. Sometimes I think you might BE Roy Williams posing as a concerned KU fan.

April 4, 2007 at 7:59 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

jross1972 (Joe Ross) says...

Once again, KU. You make the argument too simple. Are you a seventh grader? The vast "research" required to view your posts is as simple as a click. Takes a lot of time, doesn't it? This is too easy.

April 4, 2007 at 9:23 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

super_jayhawk (anonymous) says...

I just knew that the minute Roy made it into the Hall that the Roy-haters would crawl out of the woodwork to fling more mud.
Geez, people, can't you just leave the man be? The Roy-haters all act like jilted lovers that still seethe with hate, four years later. Apparently a basketball coach is supposed to stay in one place for the rest of his life, and if he goes to another job, he's evil incarnate.

Did it ever occur to you that Self did the exact same thing to Illinois?

Something to keep in mind for those of you that seem to dwell on Roy's departure... he didn't leave alone, other of people helped. First on the list is Al "Crushed Like a Dove" Bohl, who provided a hostile environment for Roy and the other coaches before he deounced him in his driveway. The writing was already on the wall months after he arrived. http://espn.go.com/columns/wojnarowsk...

Second is our very own Chancellor, and Reggie Robinson, who messed up big-time by bringing in Bohl from Fresno State, especially in light of all the irregularities that were coming to light with how he ran the program there.
http://www.fresnobee.com/189/story/27...

Third on the list is Matt Doherty, who messed up big-time at UNC by pissing off his fans, staff and players (most of them threatened to transfer) and turning the basketball program into a hostile environment for everyone as he went nuts. Had he not screwed up the program and actually done a good job, Roy would have never even thought about leaving. http://northcarolina.scout.com/2/102882 .html
(No, you can't pin this one on Dean Smith, he already retired before then, and Doherty completely shot himself in both feet. )

So if you're going to get all pissed off about it, make sure to get
pissed off at the right people. If just ONE of those situations had not happened, he would have never left.

Either way, what's done is done, and it's been four years. Eventually Roy will be able to come back and visit the FIeldhouse someday, and eventually y'all will get over your burning hatred of the guy and let him be. Hopefully sooner rather than later.

April 4, 2007 at 10:22 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

super_jayhawk (anonymous) says...

To "KU". Your name-calling and immature posturing make you appear as quite the lamer. One of the reasons why many Jayhawk alumni like myself feel nauseated by reading sites like KUSports.com is because of vitriol like yours. This board is about basketball, not your Roy Williams voodoo doll collection. KUsports.com could have an article about the front lawn at the Fieldhouse getting replanted and you'd leap on it with your "388 reasons why I hate Roy" posts. If you like Self better anyway, you should be happy with the way things turned out, rather than sounding like a jilted ex-lover.

Oh, and BTW, your school called, and they want their name back.

April 4, 2007 at 10:34 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

super_jayhawk (anonymous) says...

Whatever feelings you have about Roy one way or another, there are a few things that are undeniable. Most wins (418-101) of any KU coach other than Phog Allen, including the highest winning percentage (80.5%). He took us to FOUR Final Fours (1991, 1993, 2002, 2003), more than any other KU Coach in the history of the program. Twelve conference titles. Roy gave us his best work for 15 years. Only two KU Coaches have stuck around longer : Phog himself, and "Maalox Teddy" Owens, who really outstayed his welcome after a couple of losing seasons.

Really, I'm not making any of that stuff up, you can look it up in the annals of KU Basketball, just as I did. We owe Roy our thanks for what he did while he was here, and I would hope that some of you could be mature and sportsmanlike enough to recognize that his contributions at Kansas alone were good enough to get him into the Basketball Hall of Fame. And I would hope that KU fans in general would be classy enough to wish him well.

Head coaches do not retire at the programs they start out in, not any more. That hasn't happened at KU in the last half a century. If you're bitter because Roy didn't stay at KU for the rest of his days, face it : coaches don't do that any more. Even staying fifteen years with the same team is a very long time. There are VERY few active NCAA Div-I coaches that stay in a place that long these days. BIll Self has never stuck around a place more than four years.
Do you guys think he'll stick around for 15, and will you hate him as much as you hate Roy when he decides to go somewhere else?

Now, with regards to flamingdragon's nit-pickery, first off, Roy brought back many former players to be honored on the Naismith Court, for some great ceremonies. Who can forget when Wilt himself came back for a halftime ceremony? The KU Basketball honored plenty of players during Williams' tenure at halftime ceremonies, I know.. I was there. Going after him because he didn't get around to the 70's is being pretty nit-picky.

I don't know much about the infamous "color guard" incident you guys keep bringing up, but you do know that if cheerleaders, ROTC or any other non-players are out on the court for too long, the home team gets assessed a technical foul as a delay of game. Before you jump to conclusions about this apparently overblown incident, had you considered that?

(continued next message)

April 5, 2007 at 2:54 a.m. ( | suggest removal )

super_jayhawk (anonymous) says...

(continued from previous post)

I didn't like the way that Roy left any more than you did, it was a very hard thing for me to through, and I was upset for awhile, but I never gave into the hate that flows so freely on the message boards of this website every day. KU fans have CLASS, people. Some of you really need to realize that and start showing some!

Sure, we can want to beat Roy in a tournament game, that's fine. But denying his accomplishments at KU and irrationally hating him because he went back home four years ago is childish, and immature.

Like I said in my previous post, between Al Bohl and Matt Doherty, he was really railroaded into the situation with nowhere to go. I would have liked it better if he had waited until the off-season like Larry did before taking off, and I'm well aware that the players were upset. I remember well Wayne Simien saying, "I gave my right arm for that man". I know it was hard on the players, and on the fans. It's never easy when a coach that means that much to your program moves on.

But while he didn't leave under the best way possible, this does not in the slightest change the records and facts I've mentioned in my previous message.

I find it utterly hilarious that the Roy-haters cling to Self and sing his praises, when he's never gotten past the Elite 8, not even once. And yet the same people hate Roy because he never won it all. HELLO, people! Can you say "Double standard?" This is like dating someone else just to try to make the person you broke up with jealous, but it's an irrational coping device. If Bill Self manages to bring us four Final Fours, 400+ wins, and a couple of NCAA title games, win or lose, then I'll say he's at least as good as Roy.

Until then, Bill's got 313 more wins to bring in.

Until then you folks need to get over your hate, jealousy, petulance and name-calling. It looks bad not just to us fellow Jayhawk fans and alumni, but to fans of other teams (and yes, especially our rivals) that read message forums like this one. KU and its fans have CLASS, people, let's start showing it. Congratulations to Roy in his Hall of Fame induction, and best of luck.

And best of luck too to Bill, and to our Jayhawks next year.

go jayhawks!

April 5, 2007 at 3:04 a.m. ( | suggest removal )

jross1972 (Joe Ross) says...

super_jayhawk:

super post!

While I take exception to the standards you set for Bill Self's being considered worthy of having praises sung to him, I have to say I agree with the major portion of your post. And even regarding Coach Self, it's clear you have no personal malice toward him as you offer sincere well wishes to him as he continues at the helm of the program. In this you accomplish what few others are able to: a true "forgiveness" of Roy (and I use the word though his actions were defensible) and a support for the current coach. You have found a center of emotional balance as far as I can tell.

I personally was hurt when Roy left too. I was just plain mad as hell to be very honest. But like you I allowed time to confer perspective on the situation. In effect, I got over it! There are many here who accuse Roy's supporters as being "moralists", but then go on to make moral judgements against him.

You write:

"Apparently a basketball coach is supposed to stay in one place for the rest of his life, and if he goes to another job, he's evil incarnate."

Truer words have not been spoken in these boards. The unobscured truth of the situation is that this position among them is so plainly and clearly visible. If Roy would have stayed, then he's the Genius Wizard. Now that he's gone he's Satan. The transgression of this point-of-view is how very few find any middle ground. While I will never say Roy was perfect, his accomplishments far exceeded any liabilities. People fault him for not winning it all here at Kansas--as if the man didn't try!

lies!

i admire how you support your position with factual statements about which there can be no conjecture. Others will continue to vomit bilious statements concerning Roy, but be consoled in the fact that school of thought is progressing toward your point-of-view.

April 5, 2007 at 1:03 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

JayCeph (anonymous) says...

Nobody expects a coach to stay in one place forever... with one exception. That being when the coach says they'll stay forever and that the program they support is bigger than any personal issue they might have with one or two individuals. That says that the coach wants to be part of something bigger than themself, wants to be a part of history (rather than a footnote in history).

When the coach goes back on their word and leaves the very program that they said was worth it, it places a very base and economic factor at the foot of said program. It says that the program that they are leaving for is more important, more dear, more worthy than the one that they are currently at.

This all shows the level of sincerity and integrity (certain) coaches have when they speak to their 'constituents.' Tell them what they want to hear 'till I get what I want to hear. Then, *poof*...

This is what hurt a lot of people and made the fans of KU mad at how, not only they were treated, but how they perceived their program was treated.

This says nothing about what he did while he was here... yadda yadda yadda. It says everything about what kind of guy he turned out to be.

Again, nobody faults him for following his heart. They just fault him for saying his heart belongs to KU and then he says, nope, never mind... my heart now belongs to NC.

The jilted lover parallel is a pretty cogent one. Isn't that what you tell your wife 'till you finally decide to leave her for another lover? You're still a lying, cheating dog and the spurned wife doesn't hurt any less just because you took out the trash, washed the dishes and did the laundry for 14 years without being asked.

April 5, 2007 at 1:30 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

Mangino_Maniac (anonymous) says...

What true coaches do...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070405/a...

April 5, 2007 at 1:33 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

jross1972 (Joe Ross) says...

Apples and oranges.

April 5, 2007 at 1:52 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

JayCeph (anonymous) says...

...are tasty in a fruit salad.

April 5, 2007 at 1:55 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

jross1972 (Joe Ross) says...

Jayceph, my comment was directed toward the article posted by Mangino. I agree: a fruit salad is not complete without these two ingredients! They do, however, confuse a discussion on coaching changes, with all due respect to Mangino's find.

April 5, 2007 at 3:11 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

JayCeph (anonymous) says...

No sweat. Just trying to maintain a level of brevity. :)

How do you see them (Florida's and KU's coaching changes) not being related issues? I thought Mangino made a pretty good find. Just curious...

April 5, 2007 at 3:38 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

JayCeph (anonymous) says...

um... I mean levity. (although, brevity works too... just in a different context)

April 5, 2007 at 4:02 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

jross1972 (Joe Ross) says...

Donovan's decision is not nearly as tough. Kentucky is not his alma mater. Kentucky is not his home. Kentucky is not the team he grew up watching. Although he spent just a brief stint under Pitino as an assistant coach at UK, Pitino is not beckoning him "back". There is no one at Kentucky he is emotionally or professionally indebted to.

Donovan is free and in the emotional clear to decide one way or the other without consequence to his conscience or affections. Roy was never so fortunate.

April 5, 2007 at 4:15 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

jross1972 (Joe Ross) says...

Just to be fair to the argument (and some might even use this against me, but so what...), Donovan also did not have as much pressure to stay at Florida, which makes it all the more admirable that he did.

Brewer, Horford, and Noah are gonna be gone. He's already won 2 championships. Now might have been the perfect time for him to jump ship and head up a program where he could have made an inconceivable sum of money, but he decided to stay anyway. So props to Donovan. Again, apples and oranges though.

I also think he might want to leave his mark somewhere. Donovan will never surpass what Rupp and Pitino have done at Kentucky. Florida is really an easy place to stake your claim in history because prior to the last couple of years they haven't done anything in basketball. I think his legacy factors some into the decision of staying, but I don't take anything away from him for deciding to return.

April 5, 2007 at 5:01 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

martyks (anonymous) says...

WE may have been angry when he left. Actually, I think we were all simply disappointed. How many of us would have left a place that would eventually put up a bronze statue of us? But he left for his alma mater... so we would have gotten over that. But the things he did and said when he left were tacky. The attempt to steal a player from us in the media. The derogatory statement of "a kid should not have to be stuck way out there." And the weekly calls to the players throughout the next year were all inexcusable. However, if Roy apologized and explained his misbehavior and asked KU fans to forgive him for wanting to kick start his new team and not simply leaving in a professional manner, I'd be more than willing to give him a pass. But I have never heard any statement about those things. He really believes we are angry only because he left? Wow! In other words, he simply doesn't and never will GET IT.

April 5, 2007 at 5:56 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

Mangino_Maniac (anonymous) says...

Donovan way out classes Williams in this instance regarding how he handled the situation.

So did Pitino. ;-)

April 5, 2007 at 7:43 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

super_jayhawk (anonymous) says...

Hi jross,

My requiem in the previous message for Bill's standards is at least somewhat tongue-in-cheek; I know he's a good coach, but I think the Roy-Haters heaps praise on him and annoints him the New Messiah just to cope with Roy having left, when Bill's still a relatively new KU coach and largely unproven in the postseason. That's not fair to Bill or Roy, really. Self does lots of things that I like to see, and some that I don't like to see, but he's a good coach, and 105-28 in four years is a good record. I would like to see a better postseason tournament performance worthy of a No. 1 seed, however, and there are things I think he needs to work on.

But my point was also to highlight Roy's accomplishments that he made while in Lawrence and show that more than makes the case for his entry into the Basketball Hall of Fame. Self is not there yet, and one day, I hope he will be. But for those that scream and yell that Roy wasn't a good coach and Self is so much better, the stats and the track record speak for themselves. Both are good coaches, and KU has done well by them. Believe it or not, it is actually possible to appreciate both their contributions without hating one or the other, and without ranting like an angry, spoiled and jealous child. KU Basketball is better than that, and the fans have more class than that. Some just need a reminder more than others.

I wasn't happy when Roy left, and it was very tough to deal with. But it wasn't easy when Larry left in 1988 either, especially after winning it all and then suddenly being put on probation for recruiting violations while the coach responsible runs off to pocket $3.5M in San Antonio. But Larry's departure gave Roy the opportunity to do all great things he did for the KU Basketball program, and people seem OK with Larry now. Roy's departure has given Bill the opportunity he's always dreamed of, and hopefully one day people will be OK with Roy. Children throw temper tantrums and scream when someone they care about has to leave their lives; Adults know to thank people for what they bring to the table, and let them move on.

BTW, thanks for being a voice of sanity in the maelstrom of swirling bile that these message boards tend to be.

I think if people took a little more historical perspective in and had a little more respect for the traditions and rich history that KU Basketball has to offer, message boards like this would be fine places to read and the Jayhawk nation would be a better place. I started going to the games back when Teddy Owens was the coach and everybody had sideburns, and I'm proud of the Jayhawks. And to those that need reminding, hate has NO place in Kansas Basketball.

April 5, 2007 at 7:48 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

super_jayhawk (anonymous) says...

On April 5, 2007 JayCeph wrote:

"Nobody expects a coach to stay in one place forever... with one exception. That being when the coach says they'll stay forever and that the program they support is bigger than any personal issue they might have with one or two individuals."

Lots of people seem to think that Roy Williams announced in July 2000 that he was staying forever, for the rest of his days.
Can you find me the quote? I pored over the transcript of the press conference at Memorial Stadium (and I remember it well) and couldn't find "forever" anywhere in the text. Go ahead, take a look:
http://www2.kusports.com/news/2000/ju...

Sure, we may have read into it that the whole UNC Saga was over and that we were completely safe, but we didn't know that Bohl was going to drive Roy away, and that Doherty was going to mess up so badly and force Roy's hand. But find me, if you can, the "forever" part of Roy's statement that matches your claim.

The simple fact is, that he said he was staying for the time being, in 2000, and gave us three great years after that, with Kirk, Nick, Wayne and everyone, and brought us two more Final Fours. We should thank him for giving us three more years and 89 more wins! (Especially for those of you that obsess about KU's place in the all-time basketball wins list)

Collegiate coaches only sign contracts for five years at most. Roy NEVER signed a "lifetime contract" of any kind, and never said he was staying for the rest of his days. Read the transcript, really!

I know it wasn't pretty when he left, got in his car and drove to Topeka and took off in his charter plane for NC.
I wasn't happy about it either, but it in no way changes the fact that he did KU proud, gave us fifteen great years, and deserves to be in the Basketball Hall of Fame just based on what he did in Lawrence.

And if you have a problem with him staying in 2000 and then changing his mind in 2003, Larry Brown also changed his mind too, remember? He was going to leave for UCLA right after winning it all, complete with UCLA's announcement that he was the new coach, and then turned around and said he was staying. And as soon as everyone calmed down, he left for San Antonio. Are you pissed off at Larry for changing his mind too? Or do we have the same double-standard here too where it's OK when it isn't Roy?

I used the ilted lover metaphor to illustrate that we KU fans can choose to be adults and still be okay with people that they may have broken up with, rather than being spiteful, bitter and hateful towards former coaches or players.

How does it make our Jayhawk nation look to others when fans choose to act like angrily jilted emo break-up victims? If you break up with your significant other, hopefully four years later you'll have worked through it to at least stop throwing rocks.

(continued next message)

April 5, 2007 at 9:29 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

super_jayhawk (anonymous) says...

(continued from previous post)

Coaching changes happen all the time. And again, like I've said before, coaches don't stay in one place till they retire any more. They leave for the NBA, or for other schools. You guys conveniently forget all the offers that Roy had from the NBA and schools all over the country and he turned them down. He even turned down his dream job, to stay with us a little longer. If we'd had a competent AD that wasn't an ass, and if Doherty had done a good job, things would have been completely different.

So stop bashing Roy, people. Let him live his life, and remember that he gave us fifteen good years. How many of you can say you served at KU, in any capacity, for that long? Especially those of you throwing rocks?

April 5, 2007 at 9:30 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

jross1972 (Joe Ross) says...

I'd have guessed you were a Jayhawk fan for a while. You certainly bring a more adult perspective in your comments concerning Roy. To me this isn't even a discussion anymore, because the arguments on the other side just completely lack anything to hold onto. It's almost like a kid who didn't get what he wanted, and now he's gonna hold his breath until he's blue in the face and passes out. That's the level that many Roy haters are down to.

Those of us who have seen and appreciated the Jayhawks over the years recognize that talent--both in the form of players and coaches--comes here, has a season, and then goes. Through it ALL, Kansas has maintained it's proper place among the great traditions in basketball. People say we who support Roy don't get it. On the contrary, what THEY don't get is that the tradition at Kansas is larger than any single person. If they had this appropriate perspective you'd certainly have discerned it in their arguments.

Regarding your statement:

"Both are good coaches, and KU has done well by them. Believe it or not, it is actually possible to appreciate both their contributions without hating one or the other, and without ranting like an angry, spoiled and jealous child."

This is the crux of the issue, isn't it? In time, more will come to understand it. There is evidence that they do already, because of the outpouring of support even in these posts when articles are written that credit Roy. He sure was a great coach at Kansas!

April 5, 2007 at 9:43 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

JayCeph (anonymous) says...

jross and super_jhawk, the discussion is over because you stopped listening. I'll admit that a lot of people on this board are shallow and base and would sooner bitch than screw but...

You aren't getting the main idea. It has nothing to do with what Roy did while he was coaching at KU. It has everything to do with why and how he left. Simple.

super_jhawk, I've gone over the transcripts too and he never said " he was staying for the time being." Find that for me in the record books. I know you were taking my words verbatim to make your point but your point was misplaced.

Roy did say that he was going to stay here (@ KU) till he either retired or was fired. That is what is in the transcripts. Ergo, it pretty much equates to saying that one is going to stay forever. Yes, I paraphrased. Yes, you did too. I think my distillation of his words were a little more on target than some himming and hawing about 'staying for the time being.'

Like I've said before, I couldn't care less about Roy and I love to cheer when NC loses. That's competitive sports. Other fans feel a little more deeply with regard to his leaving. I can't begrudge them that emotion any more than I can fault Roy for chasing his heart back to the land of the powder blue.

It might not hurt either one of you to understand that different perspective. I'm not suggesting you agree with it. Just don't minimize the level of passion and emotion that feed it. You have your 'glass half full' POV and that's great. Others aren't there yet and some may never be. It doesn't mean that they aren't as 'evolved' as you. It's just that they don't care to embrace a guy that they feel gave them a raw deal.

April 6, 2007 at 10 a.m. ( | suggest removal )

jross1972 (Joe Ross) says...

Jayceph...

No, we DO get it. It just seems unfathomable to some that we DO understand how and why he left. The fact of the matter is it's completely understandable.

The fact that he is being taken to task on changing his mind to me is ridiculous. People change their minds all the time. When he made the statement that he was staying, in essence, "forever" I don't doubt he meant it at the time he said it. After all, he turned UNC down. Then circumstances changed, and he changed his mind.

It's not that we don't get it, it's that we are capable of forgiving. This is the emotionally mature perspective. We were hurt too by his leaving, but as they say...

To err is human...

To forgive...

April 6, 2007 at 12:05 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

JayCeph (anonymous) says...

So, you are suggesting that Roy did something that would necessitate forgiveness? If so, that is why people are steamed.

Some get over things faster than others. Some dwell. I, for one, am over Roy. I really don't give a dad-gum about him. I'm not mad at him but I also don't revere him either. He treated his post like a job and so I will refer to him as a former employer. Nothing more (certainly nothing iconic in nature).

I like what Self is doing with the program... but if I find out that NC is losing, I am elated. They deserve their Karmac reward.

I certainly don't feel bad for Roy. He made his bed, so he can sleep in it. That means he miffed-off a lot of people in JayNation. Maybe he is the one that needs to get over it. Did he expect a hero's welcome? Nah. He knew what he was doing.

KU = National Champs '08 (20 year reunion of '88)!

April 6, 2007 at 12:26 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

jross1972 (Joe Ross) says...

No, I am not suggesting that Roy did anything for which he requires forgiveness.

Some people, however, think he committed a transgression. It is this perspective to which I speak. Even if you feel that he did something wrong, then unless you feel that mistakes are unforgivable you have no cause to hold it against him. Consider yourself, and the mistakes you have made (again, I don't consider Roy's actions a mistake, but you do). How would life be if you could never recover from those things which cast you in a negative light? How would it be if you could not escape a perpetual downtroddening of public opinion? The insult to this injury is that Roy's departure is understandable. And surely you can understand that. Why hold onto those things which you consider grievous wrongs?

To say how Roy treated things, youd really have to get inside his head. In every moral situation there are three considerations: the actions, the circumstances, and the intent. All you have benefit of is seeing Roy's actions. I feel strongly that you discredit his intentions, his will toward Kansas, and the true dilemma he faced.

You say you don't feel bad for Roy. Roy doesn't want you to feel bad for him. You say he made his bed. He's a Naismith Hall of Famer that has the respect and admiration of all of America (save a handful of fans who feel jilted), and he's a championship coach. I wanna sleep in that bed.

You say he miffed off people at Kansas. The tide is turning on how they feel about him now, and he will have his hero's welcome.

April 6, 2007 at 1:23 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

JayCeph (anonymous) says...

Someday, perhaps. If and when that happens, so be it. I just don't see it happening anytime soon.

It took Wilt more than 20+ years to come back. For Roy, that sounds about right. That's how long I think it will take for many to allow for the tarnish to rub off of his otherwise stellar accomplishments at KU.

April 6, 2007 at 1:37 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

jross1972 (Joe Ross) says...

I doubt it will take that long. We received the much maligned Norm Stewart to a standing ovation in AFH, with gifts in tow no less. People would never have thought that day would have been expedited so quickly--the architect of our arch enemy Mizzou? In AFH?

Surely you are not so biased against him that you would say his actions ever placed him in lower stead than Norm Stewart. certainly you don't! All that passion good ol' Roy breathed for Kansas for fifteen years. People who think that way really aren't fairminded anyway, and history will do us the favor of marginalizing their opinions, thank God.

Wilt had ought against Kansas for some things that happened while he was here and so he turned down a few opportunities to come home. I can guarantee you if the opportunity is presented to Coach Williams he would NOT decline the opportunity to come "home".

April 6, 2007 at 2:02 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

jross1972 (Joe Ross) says...

"I'm not shocked. Whenever an alma mater is involved things like this can happen...He had the opportunity to go home. Circumstances were unique. Obviously going home was a factor."

--Bill Self (on Bob Huggins, interestingly applicable to Roy's situation as well)

April 6, 2007 at 2:09 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

JayCeph (anonymous) says...

Yes, and a spooky omen should OkieSt ever tire of the younger Sutton, no?

April 6, 2007 at 3:20 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

jross1972 (Joe Ross) says...

On that much we agree. Self's name will come up when and if Sutton either decides to call it quits or craps out at Okie State. When and if that happens, I imagine the Elder Sutton will beckon Self "home", similar to Dean Smith's doing (interesting Sutton and Smith were both native Kansans). Then Self's and Williams' situations will truly be the same.

April 6, 2007 at 3:34 p.m. ( | suggest removal )