Monday, April 20, 2015

Race on to land remaining preps

Kansas University basketball recruiting.

Kansas University basketball recruiting.


There’s a lot of talking going on in gyms and living rooms — as well as on the phone these days — between the few uncommitted blue-chip high school basketball prospects in the Class of 2015 and high-profile college coaches.

ESPN, as well as several recruiting services, reported Sunday that small forward standout Brandon Ingram will meet with Duke coach Mike Krzyzewski again Tuesday after speaking with him in person Friday.

Ingram, 6-foot-8 senior from Kinston (North Carolina) High, who is ranked No. 19 by, met with Kansas University coach Bill Self on Saturday and Kentucky coach John Calipari on Friday.

Ingram will meet with coaches from North Carolina State today and North Carolina on Wednesday. The other finalist, UCLA, reportedly will not be included in the final round of in-home visits.

Ingram’s father, Donald Ingram, told on Sunday night that Brandon’s college choice will be revealed a week from today.

Meanwhile, Cheick Diallo, a 6-9 senior from Our Savior New American in Centereach, New York, who met with KU’s Self on Friday and St. John’s Chris Mullin on Saturday, was to meet Sunday night with Kentucky’s Calipari, reported.

A source told that the KU and St. John’s sessions “went very well.” Diallo also has Iowa State and Pitt on his final list.

TV show Tuesday: ESPNU will air its annual signing-day special at 5 p.m. Central time, Tuesday. There’s been no word if any top players will commit or be interviewed on the show.

Ben Davis’ daughter excels at N.D.: Former KU forward Ben Davis’ daughter happens to be one of the best college basketball forwards in the country.

Notre Dame’s Taya Reimer, a 6-foot-3 sophomore from Fishers, Indiana, grabbed 11 rebounds and scored six points while playing 33 minutes in the Irish’s 63-53 NCAA championship-game loss to UConn. Reimer finished fourth on the team in scoring (10.2) and second in rebounding (6.1) while starting 35 of 37 games.

She and her dad are the first dad/daughter combo to play in the McDonald’s All-America game. Ben, who also played collegiately at Florida and Arizona after leaving KU following the 1991-92 season, was a 1991 McDonald’s All-American out of Oak Hill Academy, while Reimer was a 2013 McDonald’s selection.

“He has helped coach me along the way and he did it well. Some parents kind of push their kids too hard. He really stepped back and listened. He’s supportive,” Reimer told the Indianapolis Recorder. “Hopefully I have a good collegiate career and play professionally like he did. It just means a lot to me for him to be proud of me and to follow in his footsteps.”

Taya’s mom, Brenda Reimer, was a three-sport standout at Hesston High and graduated from KU.

“My mom was really athletic and so was my aunt. Even though I wasn’t always with my dad I obviously knew that he played basketball and he encouraged me a lot. It was just a really athletic family,” Reimer told

Ben Davis, 42, who graduated from final stop Arizona, was a second-round pick of the Phoenix Suns in 1996. He played with the Suns and New York Knicks from 1996-2000 as part of a 13-year pro career that included stops in Spain, Greece, Venezuela, Italy, Portugal, Uruguay and Mexico. He also played in the CBA and ABA.

Marcus on the move: Former Kansas State guard Marcus Foster announced Sunday he is transferring to Creighton University. “Time to get back to work! Officially a Creighton Blue Jay,” Foster wrote. He’ll have two seasons of eligibility remaining starting in 2016-17. ... Kansas State commit Eric Cobb, an unranked 6-9, 235-pound senior power forward from St. Frances High in Baltimore, has reopened his recruitment, says. ... Meanwhile, ESPN says KSU on Sunday landed a commitment from unranked Isaiah Maurice, a 6-8 senior power forward from Bull City Prep in Durham, North Carolina.


Jay Scott 7 years, 2 months ago

The Bruce Weber death march has begun.....

Aaron Paisley 7 years, 2 months ago

There's already a sizable contingency of KSU fan's calling for his head because they knew exactly what was going to happen to KSU's program.

Dale Rogers 7 years, 2 months ago

More like it has resumed.... it just takes a year or two hiatus when he changes schools and has someone else's recruits.

Dale Rogers 7 years, 2 months ago

If he went from KU to Hutchinson CC, was that probably because of grades? I see he did graduate from Arizona. I also remember him as a solid performer with a lot of potential.

Kenneth Johnson 7 years, 2 months ago

If he hadn't transferred, KU would have likely won the NCAA tourney in 1993. That's why he's low on my list of former players.

Robert Brock 7 years, 2 months ago

Three scholarships available and no takers! The program is slipping...

Suzi Marshall 7 years, 2 months ago

That is a bit of hyperbole that misses the point. Self goes after the top players with a few gets and several near misses. Recruiting the top players is a tough competitive business where second place counts the same as last.

Our teams the last couple of years reflect how key near misses will make the difference between great and good teams. Self will always put a good team on the floor but he plays for the great teams that will compete for National Championships.

Rodney Crain 7 years, 2 months ago

Do you think we are in second place right now, 3rd, 10th, 100th?

Rodney Crain 7 years, 2 months ago

Brett, when you call me a name like idiot when replying to me I do not appreciate it. Either reply to me without labeling me or ignore my comments. You do this a lot of this on here. Please make you point without labels. (I am not, nor ever have been a victim on here, but I will not allow you to continue unchecked any longer when you are disrepectful to me) You might not understand this is a defense mechanism since you subconsciously agree with me and are deflecting by calling me a name or labeling me. It is a form of Regression, the only way to prove your point is by reacting with belittling or condescending label to prove your superiority. I know stating this will likely cause you to lash out again, but I do understand why you are doing it.

I actually agreed with another poster, you are the person who cannot react to the content but only the person. Robert said basically the same thing as I did. Others agree with me, many do on here actually, but are too scared to comment because of folks like you , Benz, others who think this place is only area to applaud the team regardless of success or effort. That somehow you control the content and what is posted on here. I do not share that outlook. I just am posting a benign difference of opinion.

Brett most sports teams, successful ones, always are looking at bettering themselves, always. To critique yourself or your team is a normal element of sports since they first began. It happens every day, everywhere.

Please try to ignore my comments if all you can do is call me names or label me. I do not appreciate it.

Dale Rogers 7 years, 2 months ago

I also agree with Suzi. It would be short-sighted to just try to fill up the numbers quickly. Far better to hold out and try to get the best players to fill the needs we have. You don't get the best players you can by skipping those who have said they're not ready to commit just yet.

Michael Bratisax 7 years, 2 months ago

Self landed 4 (not counting Bragg) McDonald All-Americans the last two years and went nowhere in the NCAA. The 2013-14 team has 3 players already in the NBA and could end up w/5 overall depending on Selden and Ellis but was knocked out by Stanford.

Seems similar to what Barnes was doing w/the Longhorns. Next season could go either way. TRob, Withey, Markief and others really hit their stride in their 3rd season. I think next years MVP could easily be Selden. Greene will be in his 3rd season as will Mason. Graham and Svi will be in their 2nd year. It would be great to get a big for the 5 spot but we have multiple talent at every other spot.

Maybe next years team will be the one out running and scoring in transition.

Rodney Crain 7 years, 2 months ago

Interesting that an article on recruiting news, with a headline about it too, had more information about a former players daughter and another schools player transferring out of conference. Only two players are mentioned for us too. You have to think there are others, right?

Add to that you are the first post on recruiting and it seems a little surreal for an elite program.

Benz Junque 7 years, 2 months ago

Good grief, people. Wiggins didn't announce until the end of MAY. Are we really this spastic that we cannot wait until the recruiting season is actually over to pass judgement on how it went?

Rodney Crain 7 years, 2 months ago

Benz when you call me a name like Spastic when replying to me I do not appreciate it. Either reply to me without labeling me or ignore my comments. You do this alot of this on here. Please make you point without labels.

You might not understand this is a defense mechanism since you subconsciously agree with me and are deflecting by calling me a name or labeling me. It is a form of Regression, the only way to prove your point is by reacting with belittling or condesending. I know stating this will likely cause you to lash out again, but I do understand why you are doing it.

Thank you for agreeing with me, indirectly, but still agreeing.

Suzi Marshall 7 years, 2 months ago

Hot Rod is not a bad guy. He is as loyal to the Hawks as the rest of us posters. He just has an inverted, perverse, convoluted logic pattern that takes some getting used to. Loving one's self can be a good thing.

Benz Junque 7 years, 2 months ago

Grow up. The ACTIONS of people freaking out about the current state of recruiting are spastic. And your reaction to it just highlights how bad some have lost their minds about the current situation.

The only person lashing out here is you. I am asking people to STOP lashing out, settle down and let the rest of the recruiting period play out before bashing our coaches and the state of our program. Is your goal to literally be the only person left posting on this site?

Tom Jones 7 years, 2 months ago

I don't know if he comes on just to pick a fight. Maybe sometimes.

What happens, unfortunately, is that his opinion is usually borderline ridiculous and he gets called out for it and things unfortunately spin down the drain from that point.

Occasionally he has a valid opinion, though, and he seems like a nice guy with maybe just some maturity issues.

I do crack up when I read the faux psychoanalysis stuff, though.

Allison Steen 7 years, 2 months ago

Okay serious question: do you drown puppies for fun? Seriously what is your deal?

Matt Woolley 7 years, 2 months ago

To Robert, and Ben and all the other glass is empty guys:

If you think the program is slipping you are clearly either not intelligent or just completely insane. And I am sure you guys are going to say I am some horrible person for "name calling", so I will gladly tell you why.

  • We already signed a 5* big this year. He looked pretty good durning the McDon. AA game too. But, doubt you watched it and probably just read about it and how well Diallo played on this site.

  • Anyone who says our recruiting has slipped is just crazy. The last time we didn't have a lottery pick was 2008-2009. Oh and we still won the league. Crazy. And yes, the streak could end next year, except something tells me either we land one of these big recruits, Selden actually plays like a 5* guy, Svi goes off next year, or Perry has a career season. And I would say that one of those options happening is pretty realistic.

  • If your argument is tournament success. Simply put, Bill gave us our first NC in 20 years. Something Roy couldn't do here, and something Larry did with literally one of the best college basketball players EVER. So yea, I'm ok with the Conference championship streak. And having the longest consecutive NCAA tournament appearances streak. And the National Championship. And the 2 appearances.

  • If your argument is that we need a new coach, who would you want? Shaka? He's been knocked out in the last 2 tournaments in the round of 64. There are only 3 or 4 coaches that might be better than Bill at this moment. Coach K, Coach Cal, Pitino, and Izzo. THATS IT. Maybe Miller. maybe. Name one other coach that is better. You can't.

Read this sentence and tell me you wouldn't sound insane. "We just won the big 12 title outright in what was looked at as the toughest conference in the country and want to fire our coach."

John Strayer 7 years, 2 months ago

No...there are three available...Mickelson, Traylor, Ellis, Lucas, Greene, Seldon, Mason, Graham, Mykhailuk make nine returning scholly players. Bragg takes one leaving 3 more. Maybe two if you count that Manning received a scholly for part of the year last year, but that's not guaranteed for 2015-16 and could be available for a new player.

Regardless...KU miss on most of its primary targets...and will likely miss on prepared for a season with Ellis, Mickelson and Lucas and our bigs.

Matt Woolley 7 years, 2 months ago

You're right. My apologies. I for some reason thought you could only have 12 on scholarship.

Suzi Marshall 7 years, 2 months ago

How can you say Diallo is a likely miss when it is widely known that at the present moment Kansas squarely in the hunt. If Diallo leaves the NYC area (STJ), Kansas will be his destination.

John Strayer 7 years, 2 months ago

Key is if he leaves NYC area...seems to me I read something somewhere that he really wants to stay in that area.

Rodney Crain 7 years, 2 months ago

So settling for less than 4 (there are 2 left and we have not offered them) and all remaining 5 star recruits is not slipping?

Adam Tyler 7 years, 2 months ago

Was Michigan State slipping this year without all those 5 star recruits?

How about Wisconsin?

The reason you get called names is that you do not accept others views, but then get your panties in wad when someone else gives an opinion that opposes yours. You act as if you are the almighty in regards to basketball knowledge.

You have the thinnest skin of any poster. And it's comical.

Rodney Crain 7 years, 2 months ago

Matt you were doing so well right to calling anyone who disagrees with you insane.

Why after making a wonderful post like that did you feel that you had to do that?

Although my comments have never been about firing coach Self, I am concerned about our recruiting stratergy.

Matt Woolley 7 years, 2 months ago

What specifically about our recruiting strategy? The fact that we are going for the best recruits during a year in which we return the majority of a team that was a 2 seed in last years tournament? Like maybe trying to sign a guy that might push us from a really good team to an exceptional team?

And i'm pretty sure I backed up my name calling with facts. But hey, you do you Rodney and be a skeptic of Bill. He's adopting to the OAD and as much as it sucks for college basketball and the fans, he has to do it. Criticize all you want, but when the top 8-9 recruits were all going pro instead of coming to college, he could recruit 2 and 3 year guys that were the 30th player overall. Now, we can't do that in order to be the best year in and year out.

Ben Simonett 7 years, 2 months ago

When i read arguments like these it really makes me question the quality of the philosophy department at KU. Do me a favor and goolge these terms:

ad hominem, Straw man, red herring,

Then come back here and post a rebuttal to my arguments about the state of the program that doesn't contain so many logical fallacies

Adam Tyler 7 years, 2 months ago

Assuming all fans of the basketball team are former students of KU is a fallacy in itself.

Why would you question any academic department at the university? Seems irrelevant to me.

Ben Simonett 7 years, 2 months ago

fair enough. having no college education at all would explain a lot of the faulty logic i see on this forum

Aaron Paisley 7 years, 2 months ago

And the self righteous, holier than thou, I'm better than you attitude you display on here is why people are not very inclined to take your opinion very seriously. Try having a discussion without insulting people's intelligence and you might find people would actually be open to point of view. As long as you continue posting with your current attitude and continue insulting people's intelligence, nobody will take your point of view seriously.

Ben Simonett 7 years, 2 months ago

I didn't start it. the self righteous attitude is a response to personal attack leveraged against me by matt. he thought he refuted every concern about the program with his straw men so i gave him another argument and am waiting for his response.

If you'd like to have an adult dialogue with me i'm open to it

Adam Tyler 7 years, 2 months ago

So I am uneducated if I didn't go to KU? Do other colleges not offer an education?

You come across as an elitist douche. I really feel sorry for you, or anyone you deal with in life.

Ben Simonett 7 years, 2 months ago

again this is a typical straw man argument. my actual claim was "having no college education at all would explain a lot"

which you have no turned into "if someone doesnt go to KU they're uneducated".

You have manipulated my argument because its easier to refute your fake version of what I said rather then what I actually said.

you then throw an ad honinem in at the end. being an "elitest douche" does not change the validity of my argument

Adam Tyler 7 years, 2 months ago

So you are admitting you are an elitist douche?

Glad we can agree on something!

David Lara 7 years, 2 months ago

Solid post Matt.

Rodney, to help you understand the source of the frustration that others demonstrate in response to your comments, here's a brief synopsis of these circumstances interpreted by someone who doesn't post here very often:

  1. You vociferously espouse the view that Kansas Basketball fans should be seriously concerned about recruiting and the future of the program.

  2. You make comments to that effect in response to EVERY article that has to do with Kansas basketball.

  3. You choose to disregard any prior pattern in the area of recruiting or season success as if history can give no indication of the current or imminent state of the program.

  4. Your conclusions demonstrate an unsettling confidence that the reality on which you comment could only be exactly what it seems.

5.You choose to react to a situation that hasn't yet happened, as if the worst case scenario in every future possibility has already come to pass.

I get the sense that you are unaware of the these criteria, at least as they appear to me. I understand you would like to avoid "name calling" and I don't disagree, however, taking offense to the word "insane" would be much more expected of someone who doesn't have such an extreme point of view such as the above combination. It is a common parlance tossed around between 2 differing views that span such an enormous gap and is not usually considered all that inflammatory on a message board. I'm certain that if even one or two of the above tendencies were not a part of your regular posts, you would not be getting the frustration you are receiving.

Michael Uphaus 7 years, 2 months ago

Very exciting...keep up the hard work HCBS and staff, you will get it done!

Tevin Brown 7 years, 2 months ago

This recruiting class isn't all that tho ain't jahils no tyus no karl towns....just Ben and he went to lsu like lsu? Straight ass Ivan rabb went to cal and Zimmerman went to unlv so ain't like they stacking up at Duke and Kentucky if you look at it Kentucky has 7 plays gone Duke whole team is if you look at us who left? Kelly but if we get jaylen boom that's all we need we got Perry back yes Landen might not be the greatest but who gotta unstoppable center? Not be nice to get diallo but if we don't get him damn it jamari go hoop boi! Frank wayne svi perry landen with 8 games over seas practice before the season even starts were gonna get way better. ...we went the national championship with trob Taylor and Elijah I think we'll be fine

John Pritchett 7 years, 2 months ago

"This recruiting class isn't all that tho ain't jahils no tyus no karl towns"

In general, this is not a great recruiting class, at least not like recent years.

"....just Ben and he went to lsu like lsu? Straight ass Ivan rabb went to cal and Zimmerman went to unlv so ain't like they stacking up at Duke and Kentucky if you look at it Kentucky has 7 plays gone Duke whole team is gone..."

The good players that there are, they're spread out among several teams, rather than converging on Duke and Kentucky as they did last year. And those two teams lost a ton of talent to the NBA after the end of the season.

"now if you look at us who left? Kelly but if we get jaylen boom that's all we need we got Perry back yes Landen might not be the greatest but who gotta unstoppable center? Not be nice to get diallo but if we don't get him damn it jamari go hoop boi! Frank wayne svi perry landen with 8 games over seas practice before the season even starts were gonna get way better."

Unlike Duke and Kentucky, we're bringing back most of our players. We may not be bringing in a lot of top-level freshmen, but our returning players have a lot of upside. Few teams are strong at center, so we're not alone there. Jamari could have a break-out year, as could Frank Mason, Wayne Selden, Perry Ellis, Landon Lucas. And the opportunity to represent the US in the World University Games will be an advantage in developing these players.

"we went the national championship with trob Taylor and Elijah I think we'll be fine"

KU has had success without huge recruiting classes before. We'll be fine.

I agree with Tevin. Why are we suddenly putting all our hopes in first-year recruits? What makes Coach Self such a successful coach has been his ability to combine young, transient talent with journeyman veterans. What I've heard Coach say is if we can land one more guy in the middle, this could be one of the more talented teams he's had here. We'll be fine.

Ryan Zimmerman 7 years, 2 months ago

Long story short, and not to be a downer, but we will have 0% chance at winning a title or going 3 wins in the tournament with the existing roster. Bragg is a great get and hope he can help out, but to make any kind of impact we have got to get one of the remaining guys. Taylor/Mickelson/Lucas are not the answer nor are they starters. Diallo I believe will make or break this team. Maker IMO won't play much anyway with all the issues I bet that kid brings with him so I assume not get him. Other than Mason and Ellis, there is zero consistency or reliability on that team. We need more talent to pressure the existing guys into performing

Rob Bedford III 7 years, 2 months ago

Agreed! KU needs another quality big and some one to come in and put Selden on the bench.

Adam Tyler 7 years, 2 months ago

UCLA, Xavier, West Virginia on paper all had worse rosters than ours this season and made it to the 3rd game of the tourney.

Maybe it's about matchups and getting hot at the right time. Maybe not having your best player hurt, and another important piece sidelined due to the NCAA.

Tom Jones 7 years, 2 months ago

0% chance of winning three games with the existing roster? That's just silly, sorry.

A title is hard. The best team only wins it about 30% of the time to begin with.

I do agree we're not in the top five if we don't sign an impact big, but we'll still be top ten and thus a better than 0% chance at winning the title.

I love how some folks on here just assume that because the roster will have a lot of the same faces that no one will improve, much less improve significantly, over the summer, much less over the course of next season.

It's a faulty stance to take.

Benz Junque 7 years, 2 months ago

Compare our current roster to last year's Michigan State roster that went to the Final Four (and who we BEAT earlier in the year) and then stand by that 0% chance. There's always a chance.

Joe Joseph 7 years, 2 months ago

A wild prediction:

KU's next final four appearance will come the same year that the Big XII conference streak ends.

Benz Junque 7 years, 2 months ago

What is wrong with you people?!?!?!?! To quote Herm Edwards "YOU PLAY TO WIN THE GAME!"

You honestly think that LOSING the conference will put the team in a BETTER frame of mind in the tourney? Being the team that loses the streak will take the burden of pressure off of them?!? Oh, dear...

If I have to walk 40 blocks from Point A to Point B do I need to get hit by a few cars here and there in the first 34 blocks to make me pay closer attention when I cross the last six blocks? If Kansas is playing poorly enough to lose enough games to not finish first in the conference, what makes you think they will suddenly magically discover the secret formula to rattle off 4 straight tourney wins?

I swear I must be on candid camera right now. Am I the only one who hasn't lost his mind?!?!

Benz Junque 7 years, 2 months ago

Kansas has won their conference in 13 of their 14 Final Four seasons. Trying to say that winning the conference is preventing Kansas from going to the Final Four is probably not the way to go.

Aaron Paisley 7 years, 2 months ago

2015: Duke (Champs), Michigan State

2014: UConn (Champs), Kentucky, Wisconsin

2013: Michigan, Syracuse, Wichita St.

2012: Louisville

2011: UConn (Champs), Kentucky, VCU

In the last 5 years, 12 out of 20 (60%) Final Four teams and 3 out of 5 (60%) national champs did not win their regular season conference championship. The conference title streak is great and all, but a regular season conference title is not a prerequisite to reaching the Final Four or winning a national title.

Ryan Zimmerman 7 years, 2 months ago

I don't mean 3 wins for the season... I mean 3 wins in the March National championship tournament:)

Ryan Zimmerman 7 years, 2 months ago

And sorry, I'd add to my comment, but IDK how to edit existing posts. I'm sure some kids can improve, but the ceiling has been reached on several of these guys already. Ellis has peaked but that' fine because he's a great player and teammate. I'm not sure who else is left that has "potential" to get better. Greene has been do or die by the three, and when it's "die", it's all he has. Graham I won't write off and i can see him as a team leader in a year or two possibly. I love Selden on a personal level, but the inconsistency has been glaring. The rest of the bigs have had their shots, specifically Traylor, and they are good players. None IMO should be a starter on this team. They inherit it by default. I suppose Svi hasn't shown us all he can do and he is young, so be great to see him develop too. Whether we fill the roster with a top 10 kid or a top 500 kid, that roster should be full. This is Kansas basketball. I don't see how it's possible for a program like this to ever have any open scholarships available once the season starts.

Adam Tyler 7 years, 2 months ago

"I don't see how it's possible for a program like this to ever have any open scholarships available once the season starts."

That is the issue. The season hasn't started!

We were in this same spot one year ago today, and came out nicely with Graham and Svi.

If we have 3 open spots in October, be pissed! But not in April. Have some patience.

Tom Jones 7 years, 2 months ago

Thanks for clarifying.

I agree on Ellis. He may have come pretty close to his ceiling already, but if he can be the guy he was before he got hurt last season, that will be more than enough. He can improve on rebounding, too.

But damn, I see a ton of potential in some of the pups. Svi and Graham especially jump out as guys who could be forces in the rotation. Mason still has plenty of room to improve. And Greene... say what you will about him, but he was the most dangerous shooter in the country before he got his bell rung an aggravated a long time hip injury. True, he won't have much time after surgery before the season starts, but if the surgery goes well, he should actually be better than before. That hip problem was throwing him off big time, and not just shooting. It's been hindering his defense as well.

I really think Selden will be better, too. But nothing scientific to base that on. Having a full offseason to work instead of spending half of it rehabbing like last year will be big, methinks. He still has dreams of the NBA. It's now or never time for him next year.

Traylor. Mickelson and Lucas can still improve, but you're right, there should be someone better than either of them starting at the 5. Time will tell on that one. I still think KU will sign an impact big. If they do, they will be one of the top 5, maybe top 3 teams in college basketball. If they don't, they'll still be really, really good.

If they end up with a scholarship after signing, Bragg, and Diallo, I don't give a rat's arse. ;) Having an open scholarship isn't inherently a bad thing, IMHO, as long as you have quality depth, which KU does.

Benz Junque 7 years, 2 months ago

Ellis has not peaked. He can improve his range, his footwork, his passing, his knowledge of the playbook at both ends, his ball handling, his strength, etc... The list is endless. He isn't getting taller and he isn't adding 8 inches to his vertical and cutting a second off his 40 time but every other facet of his game can be improved. It's such a shame that such a knowledgeable fan base has throw in the towel on the capabilities of our best player.

Mason just finished his first season playing true point guard. He has a TON of improvement available to him.

Graham has TONS of improvement he could make. He oozed potential last season and I am really looking forward to his development.

Selden has tons of improvements he can make. We saw more flashes of it this year than the previous season and I expect that we will see even more of it next year.

Greene has TONS of improvement available, especially if he comes back healthy. Same with Svi.

Man, it's a shame to see so many Kansas fans so down on the state of the program right now due to two Round of 32 exits. Kinda sad how fickle things are these days.

Adam Tyler 7 years, 2 months ago

100% correct and necessary.

Thank you, Benz.

Aaron Paisley 7 years, 2 months ago

Who didn't see the comments deteriorating the way they yave? All that's missing is a certain someone making 50 comments about firing a coach in big bold letters.

Ben Simonett 7 years, 2 months ago

Matt here is my formal argument. feel free to post your rebuttal.

Premise 1) the '10-12 recruiting classes were not to the level that should be expected for a blue blood college basketball program

support: rivals class and individual player rankings were lower that KUs average and lower then the average for other blue blood programs. Additionally 7 out of the 12 prospects brought into the program in those classes left the program with out graduating or being drafted.

Premise 2) Because recruiting has a lagging impact on a program the impact of the poor classes described in premise 1 has been largest the last few seasons.

support: '13-'14 on court performance resulted in wins totals below Bill Self's career average at KU and tournament performances widely accepted as disappointments ny both fans and experts

Premise 3) Compared to its peer schools KU has had a below average '15 recruiting class up to this point

support: number of signed recruits and overall class rankings of KU is below UK, Duke, Arizona, Mich St. etc

Premise 4) Given the few number of remaining top prospects in the class compared to the total number of available scholarships that will be offered by competing programs the statistical probability of signing more than 1 remaining recruit is low

support: basic math

Premise 5) if 1 or fewer remaining recruits are signed for this class the resulting class would again be considered below historical averages for KU and similar programs

Premise 6) if the '15 class is below historical average that would mean that in 4 of the last 6 years KU has delivered below average recruiting results.

Premise 7) if the '15 class is below historical average, the lagging impact of that recruiting struggle will compound the impact of the previously mentioned struggles to produce even lower on court performances in the future.

Conclusion) There should be some concern about the future of the program.

If premises 5-7 are nullified in the near future this argument falls apart. but until that happens it is valid.

Adam Tyler 7 years, 2 months ago

Do you remember when we went to the NCAA Championship game a few years ago playing Conner Teahan, Justin Wesley, and Kevin Young? And that happened to coincide with all of those down recruiting years.

Maybe 5 star recruits don't mean EVERYTHING!

Ben Simonett 7 years, 2 months ago

Please see premise 2. recruiting has a lagging impact on a program. the poor recruiting hadn't fully manifested in on court play at that point.

analogy: a rocket still moves up for a short time after the engines turn off, but eventually gravity overtakes momentum

Adam Tyler 7 years, 2 months ago

Please don't tell anyone you are a KU fan. It's getting to be embarassing.

Rockets. Gravity. KU basketball.


Philosophy and Aerospace Engineering! We're dealing with a wiz kid!

Ben Simonett 7 years, 2 months ago

Again, how does this in anyway disprove the validity of my argument?

Insulting a messenger like this is a common psychological response from a mind that refuses to accept new information that is contradictory to its beliefs. Because you can't invalidate my claim you attack me, that is much ts easier then attacking the idea.

In reality me writing this post is futile as all its going to do is further enfuriate you as i continue to show you have no logical reason to not accept my argument. As a result your most likely response is to increase the personal insults. Please continue to attack me and prove my point.

David Lara 7 years, 2 months ago

Any premise that begins with "if" can be thrown out right off the bat. If a meteor lands on you in the next 5 minutes, you will no longer have to worry about the future of KU basketball.

Look at how much effort you have put into fashioning a black whole that can only eventually suck the program into the void, never to be heard from again. You are suffering from premature postulation, and the stress you are manufacturing for yourself will take its toll. Is there someone that can talk you off the ledge?

Ben Simonett 7 years, 2 months ago

if/then statements are a foundation of philosophy. please tell me where my logic is wrong. if all of those if-statements become true, the conclusion is valid isn't it?

didn't you take basic logic in high school?

this is also another great example of ad hominem. attacking me personally does not prove/disprove the argument i put forth

David Lara 7 years, 2 months ago

And they lend very well to an existential examination, but that is not where I would place a college basketball argument, in particular one that pushes so heavily for the most negative of all outcomes. That is not the goal of philosophy.

And no, I don't think the chain of your logic leads to your conclusion since it appears to me you have only considered a small set of the necessary circumstances. However, I consider it a waste of time to be the proverbial finger to poke such holes in a reality that is based on 'ifs'. When the 'ifs' become 'thens' feel free to present your case again and I imagine I or someone else can point out what remains to be factored into the equation.

Ben Simonett 7 years, 2 months ago

Saying something should not be examined through a logical reasoning is not a logical refute of the argument.

Similarly saying an argument has flaws while refusing to provide a credible rebuttal is also not a refute of the argument.

something being "a waste of time" does not make it untrue.

If you like to take the time to discuss the "holes" and "small set of circumstances" factored in to the argument i'd be happy to hear your rebuttal. If you continue to believe its not worth your time you can not simultaneously believe you have successfully refuted me

David Lara 7 years, 2 months ago

T/F Recruiting rankings inherently determine player development and contribution to team chemistry.

T/F Recruits rely heavily on "basic math" when deciding where to attend college.

T/F Kansas basketball has no more scholarships to offer potential recruits from the 2015 class.

T/F The quality of one year's recruiting class will directly determine the quality of the next.

T/F Incoming freshmen are the only options available for adding basketball players to a college team.

Fine print: Any question that you cannot answer with either True or False also cannot be used as a basis for a "premise", an "argument", or any other loose interpretation of "logical reasoning."

Matt Woolley 7 years, 2 months ago


Premise 1. Still put a player in the lottery every year. Still won the conference every year. Oh and still averaged 30.5 wins since then. So who says recruiting is down? You? The rankings? Josh Selby was #1 recruit and he didn't mean anything when he was here. So 0/1.

Premise 2. Again. 30.5 wins over the past 6 seasons. Recruiting, yea its fine. We were just a 2 seed in the tournament correct? It was a disapointment, so I'll give you some credit. .5/2

Premise 3. Partially correct. Except those other schools aren't returning 5 starters (At one point or another we started our projected starting lineup for next season). So we have way less minutes to offer than the other Blue bloods do this year. Duke, Kentucky and Arizona will more than likely have a little bit of a drop off this season. 1/3.

Premise 4. Correct. But basic math should also be applied to the 3rd premise. We just don't have the minutes to offer. And, it isn't like we ever play with a 12 man rotation. Maybe we pick up senior transfers to fill those spots, but no reason to fill those scholarships for the hell of it. 1.25/4

Premise 5. Again, Correct. But not. Same argument as before. We return a lot of starters. Recruits will see that and next year we will have more big recruits commit. 1.5/5

Premise 6. Again, below average according to who? You? Rivals? ESPN? Who cares about that. Ask Fred Hoiberg if KU recruiting is down. I will secede that this season we were not the most talented team I've ever seen in a Jayhawk uniform. But we we still won the league, and we still were a 2 seed. So were we really down? 1.5/6

Premise 7. What struggles? WHERE ARE THESE STRUGGLES?? Holy crap we haven't won a NC in 6 seasons. Fire Bill. Fire him. 1.5/7

Conclusion. The program is fine. We have an experienced team coming back and will be a top 10 team and favorites to win the Big 12 once again. If that doesn't happen, (which it hasn't for 11 straight seasons) then we can talk. Until the product on the court says something different, you sir are just wrong. And I mean that. You are wrong. It isn't an opinion. It's a fact. 30.5 wins in the time you are "complaining" about is a fact. 5 returning starters is fact. And 11 straight titles are facts. You sir, have the rankings of high school players as your argument. Things that are merely subjective statements by guys that may not have even played high school basketball. So quit being cynical and enjoy the amazing streak that Bill Self has made. We are currently chasing a historic mark and you are criticizing the man masterminding it.

Ben Simonett 7 years, 2 months ago

Again matt, your not critiquing what my actual premises say

putting a player in the lottery every year and winning the conference does not make the fact that the average recruiting rankings for those years were lower then others untrue

30.5 wins a season over the last 6 seasons does not make the fact that the average wins in '13-'14 were lower then the average wins as a whole untrue.

having 5 starters returning doesnt change the fact that KU has less recruits and a lower ranked class then those other programs. it may EXPLAIN IT and that idea would be wroth discussing but it doesnt change the actual facts

" We return a lot of starters. Recruits will see that and next year we will have more big recruits commit" - you have provided no evidence to make anyone rationally believe we will get more big recruits next season. I'm simply just suppose to believe that is true because you say so?

you really need to google what a red herring is

Ryan Zimmerman 7 years, 2 months ago

I understand. I'm just surprised we aren't more appealing to these top guys seeing that we have openings and a history. Yes we have a few with KU on their "list", but how many have you heard that are a "heavy lean"? I know it's all speculation until it happens and Wiggins shocked us all last year, but we need some bodies that can contribute - regardless of their ranking. I hope I am proven to be wrong and completely way off base and we fill those 3 remaining scholarships. With Thorne gone now, we're running out of options. Whether they're in the top 10 or not ranked at all as a prospect.

Joseph Bullock 7 years, 2 months ago

All of the arguing here, is quite entertaining! We are all supposed to be Jayhawk Fans, and i think we should be more Positive to each other. That is not to say that I don't take some shots, too, because I have, but sometimes people do say some crazy stuff, in here. However, I don't think that makes them insane (at least not totally insane-LOL). The problem I have, is we have so many 'Fair Weather Fans'! That is pathetic! I don't think I know everything, and neither does anyone else in here! We have 'Opinions'! But for people to think we need to fire Coach Self, I'm not sure if you really know a lot about Coaching, or basketball. Do I agree with everything he does? Absolutely not! We will be much better next season, even if we only get Bragg, with the experience of all the players we have coming back. But I also don't think, like many here, that we will not get another Blue Chipper! I see us getting at least one more, and possibly 2. Chill out people. Look in the mirror, before you get nasty with each other, and think about what you see! Have a Blessed day! And don't be so dang sensitive. Put your big boy/girl panties on! LOL

John Fitzgerald 7 years, 2 months ago

Will the real KU fans please stand up, please stand up.

Xandor Okaqui 7 years, 2 months ago

Anyone heard about the July event at Rock Chalk Park? Hopefully can bring some of the Diallos and Newmans into Lawrence and not off to Vegas. This sure will help. Heard the guy who started the Municipal Auditorium event with Free State is involved - only can help!

Tony Bandle 7 years, 2 months ago

Oddities from Oakville:

1] One advantage waiting till the end of the day is you get to read all the posts, make an ass of yourself and, since no one goes back, no one reads it!!

2] Regarding the comments no room for improvement and hit their ceiling..WRONG...everyone on this team can improve at least one thing and that is CONSISTENCY!!

3] It's a shame you can't combine Traylor's motor with Landon's size with Michelson's touch, call him Traylandson and have one heck of a decent player.

4] All you guys must be retired to have so much time to text.....they had the server at my office block!! :(.

5] Next year's starting five Ellis, Mason, Bragg, Svi and Graham with Selden first off the bench.

6] Thank God the NCAA picked KU for the University games. The USA would have been screwed if UK or Duke was chosen!!

Ben Simonett 7 years, 2 months ago

Oak. never assume your posts go unread. first thing i do when i come to these forums is a visual scan for that iconic jayhawk statue you use as an avatar :)

I would like to see that lineup but Selden coming off the bench as a junior has all the makings for a transfer, which we can not afford

Jonathan Allison 7 years, 2 months ago

".they had the server at my office block!! :(."

You obviously work in Missouri.

Joseph Bullock 7 years, 2 months ago

Tony, I hope u r joking about Selden coming off the bench, because if u r serious, you just insulted your own intelligence! I guess the recruiting is over, right! Also, Coach Self always sticks with 'his guys'! And I don't care what anyone thinks, but I promise that Selden will be a dramatically improved player, next season! K.U. will be fine, next season! Have patience, and, Trust me!

Larry Smith 7 years, 2 months ago

Since coach Self recruits and signs all of the players, who exactly are "his guys"?

Allison Steen 7 years, 2 months ago

His multi year players. Self is notorious for being loyal to his point guards.

Caden Ford 7 years, 2 months ago

Interesting stuff on Cheick!!! He just announced this on Twitter,

"It's been a long 3 years. Just wanted to thanks all the coaches who recruited me and stopped by my school appreciated.... all the fans who followed my journey.All my teammates, my coaches teachers who's make me a better thanks and Love y'all"

Along with those tweets, he had a picture of all the school's on his final list. BUT...he recently just followed Perry on Twitter..sometime either before/after posting these tweets. He also follows a number of other KU players and KU accounts.. Maybe this is a good sign? Don't want to get the hopes up too much, but I can't help it...I really think he may be leaning towards us Jayhawks.. His decision could be ANYTIME now..and tomorrow is the ESPNU College Basketball decision special. Hmmmm....

Here is the link to the tweet with the photo.


Suzi Marshall 7 years, 2 months ago

I heard alot of good vibes last night. All we can do is hope for the best for Diallo and the Hawks.

Tyler Capone 7 years, 2 months ago

if Cheick chooses Kentucky i'll probably cry...there is nobody else out there that we have a shot with besides MAYBE Jaylen Brown but I dont even think he knows what he wants to do at this point. Diallo has probbaly made a decision but keeps rethinking if it's the right one. Notice how the ISU rumors went away...Id say KU/UK are tied for him eight now, and then St. Johns. Also, Jerry Meyer of 247 sports said recently "I'm not hearing positive things about St. Johns chances to land Diallo" if that helps.

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