Saturday, September 28, 2013

Low-key Ellis learning to lead on young KU team

Kansas University sophomore Perry Ellis spins a basketball during a video shoot on KU men's basketball media day, Wednesday, Sept. 25, 2013, at Allen Fieldhouse.

Kansas University sophomore Perry Ellis spins a basketball during a video shoot on KU men's basketball media day, Wednesday, Sept. 25, 2013, at Allen Fieldhouse.


Perry Ellis will never get kicked out of a library, that’s for sure.

“He is a whole different kind of quiet,” Kansas University basketball coach Bill Self said of the Jayhawks’ 6-foot-8, 225-pound sophomore forward from Wichita. “You could be in a room with Perry and neither person speak for 24 hours.”

Sounding like a stand-up comic more than a hoops coach, Self continued: “Perry is much more comfortable with me. He will come in the office and we will have a 30-to-40 second conversation, which is much better than when he first got here.”

Seriously, folks ... Self does not consider Ellis’ low-key demeanor a sign of weakness.

“His personality is very quiet and (he gives) the appearance of being laid-back, but he is also a guy that was the (Kansas) state player of the year four times in a row and won four state championships, so the fire burns, there is no question,” Self said of Ellis.

“I think that sometimes he, as a young kid — no matter how much you try to stress it — they still want to please the older kids. We are so young this year that (now) he is one of the ‘older’ kids. So I don’t think he will have a problem with that at all.”

Ellis, who said he worked on “his shooting a lot,” in the offseason after averaging 5.8 points, 3.9 rebounds and 13.6 minutes a game his frosh season, also has been spending time on the intangibles.

“I definitely feel like I have become more of a leader, especially this year because a lot of guys are looking up to me,” Ellis said. “I’m just trying to show them to play hard. It was a quick transition for me becoming a sophomore and one of the older guys. I was a freshman last year and now we have a young team and so I’m one of the older guys now.

“I know that will help me on the court when I’m talking with the guys. It will help me learn more,” he added. “I’m trying to get out of my shell more and more, progressing at talking and that aspect. I talk when I have to.”

Ellis — he came on strong late last season when named to the Big 12 all-tournament team — figures to receive help in the leadership department from junior guard Naadir Tharpe.

Ellis and Tharpe were rotation players on last year’s senior-laden 31-6 team.

“We embrace the role, which is why we came to this school,” Tharpe said. “With all of the young guys, Perry was here last year and this is my third year, we know what is needed and what coach wants out of his players. We need to be able to help the guys out and that is what we are going to do.”

Tharpe said he expects a breakout year from Ellis, who had 23 points in the Big 12 tourney semifinals against Iowa State and 12 in the title game versus Kansas State.

“Last year he was trying to figure himself out what he needs to do, what we actually need from him. This year he clearly knows what needs be done,” Tharpe said. “He’s shown it the whole summer. He scores in so many ways, the post, midrange, stretching it out past the three-point line. The way he’s playing ... his whole mindset is different. I’m happy for him. Every day I’m telling him, ‘You look real good out there.’ It’s exactly what he’s doing, playing well every day.”

While also working on his communication skills.

“I’m learning to be more consistent on the court. I’m learning to be more consistent with talking,” Ellis said. “It just takes work.”


Scott Smetana 8 years, 9 months ago

This is getting ridiculous. I don't ever remember being so excited for the start of the season. Where do we all possibly begin in naming our Hawk to Rock???

Beate Williams 8 years, 9 months ago

I couldn't have said it better. The anticipation is beginning to get to me, can't wait for these guys to get on the court and show their stuff. I'm already thinking about the season and not wanting it to ever end, these articles are killing me. RCJH

ccarp 8 years, 9 months ago

I'm cool with a few weeks of co-hawks that rocked... As long as it is deserved. Struggling to determine the best player of a game should be a good thing. :-)

alittlecurious 8 years, 9 months ago

This is the attitude we need from our "older" guys! Perry, it's time to show the world what it means to be a Kansas blueblood!!

Dee Shaw 8 years, 9 months ago

Funny. Perry is a sophmore and one of our "older" guys.

Dirk Medema 8 years, 9 months ago

Perry gets off the hook a bit this year b/c Tarik is already assuming a significant chunk of the frontline leadership role.

Justin Steele 8 years, 9 months ago

Not a better person I could think of, if your going to force a (younger guy) sophomore to take a leadership role! A real do-as I-do and not a do-what I-say kind of guy! And like PPSmitty this is getting ridiculous! CANT WAIT! (in my Bart Scott voice)

Justin Steele 8 years, 9 months ago

Not a better person I could think of, if your going to force a (younger guy) sophomore to take a leadership role! A real do-as I-do and not a do-what I-say kind of guy! And like PPSmitty this is getting ridiculous! CANT WAIT! (in my Bart Scott voice)

KansasComet 8 years, 9 months ago

If this is what happens when we lose 5 starters off a 31-6 team, I'll take it! Will Coach Self trust his Freshmen and let the play through mistakes? That's my biggest question. Wiggins and Selden being the exceptions of course. Lots of talent on this team. Should be another great season. Each year we make the dance is a good season to me. I try not to get too high or too low with expectations. Anything can happen. The fact is we have won two National Championships in the past 25 years and I think we have been to seven Final Fours during that timeframe? It is not easy to win it all. I enjoy the ride each and every year and am thankful that we are always in the conversation.

texashawk10 8 years, 9 months ago

Wiggins and Selden will be allowed to play through mistakes because there are no better options than those two at their positions this year. Mason, Embiid, and any other freshmen that make the rotation will have a quick hook because there are known commodities like Tharpe and Traylor or Black that can sub for them.

wrwlumpy 8 years, 9 months ago

Time to watch the BIG 12 Tourney Iowa State game again.

wrwlumpy 8 years, 9 months ago

Besides being named to the all tourney team, for points and rebounds, I was impressed that Self had him in the first line during the full court presses that ISU and KSU ran at the finale of each game. That's when I realized how good of a ball handler and decision maker he is in the open court.

Ken Sedgwick 8 years, 9 months ago

Preseason most unselfish team. #1 Kansas University, #2 ??? #3 who cares?

Roy Scherff 8 years, 9 months ago

A whole different kind of quiet. I like that.

mikehawk 8 years, 9 months ago

When you get into conflict, whether in a foxhole, or in the street, Perry is the type of guy you want to look over and see on your side. You KNOW he has your back. He doesn't have to talk for the sake of talking, but when he does speak, you listen because he has something important to say. He will never be a "smack talk" type. It just isn't him. That is for other guys. Perry appears very cerebral and as his mind gets free, he is going to be a force to be reckoned with, night in, night out. With some, it is "still waters run deep." That's Perry Ellis.

ccarp 8 years, 9 months ago

Living in STL the last 10 years, I've always likened Perry's demeanor to that of Albert Pujols. Or as Teddy Rosevelt said, speak softly and carry and big stick.

REHawk 8 years, 9 months ago

This kid is absolutely TOPS, in my book. I have never been more excited about the progress and development of any other Jayhawk...though I might add, this complete squad affects my similar sense of anticipation and enthusiasm. Perry Ellis is a rock. I really hope he is able to remain in Lawrence for a 3rd and 4th season. Kudos to his parents and Wichita community for raising and sending us such a gem. In a time of razzle dazzle and quick exits, Perry appears to be the rocksolid quintessential student/athlete.

dylans 8 years, 9 months ago

Perry seems to be a 'tweener for the league, so his early adoption of a leadership roll will pay big dividends. Most likely Perry will lead this team for three straight years. Each of the last several years has had a new guy take over the leadership roll , some adopt this roll naturally (Tyshawn) others take more work. Continuity in the leadership department will certainly help Bill out in a big way.

Jack Wilson 8 years, 9 months ago

I may be in the minority here, but I don't think guys like Perry can really be the leader. He can be a leader by example. But guys that don't talk and communicate, and appear laid back, can't be the leader. It's trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. I am quite sure Self recognizes this. Ellis said, “I’m just trying to show them to play hard." That's all he needs to do.

Folks like Ellis can't provide leadership in crucial situations because they don't talk. It's as simple as that. We should not expect this guy to be one of the main leaders on this team just because he's now a sophomore on a team with a bunch of freshmen. You don't have to be a leader to be successful in this game, or any game. It's just not Ellis' personality.

onegonzo 8 years, 9 months ago

I think he said he's working on that.

bwag 8 years, 9 months ago

Tickets sold out for all home games?

chriz 8 years, 9 months ago

It's easy to forget that there are (at least) two types of leaders: The outspoken, and the outworkin'. Perry is clearly the latter. Tarik could be the outspoken guy, but I think the team will also look up to Perry as a guy who simply leads by example. Those are the guys who influence me, personally.

DanR 8 years, 9 months ago

I'm REALLY hoping Tarik proves otherwise at KU, but he wasn't much of a leader at Memphis.

whaleboyart 8 years, 9 months ago

"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt".

Abraham Lincoln

Bob Thompson 8 years, 9 months ago

I chose to disagree. Perry is exactly the leader I would want. When everyone knows what needs to be done, nothing needs to be said. Going out and giving 110% speaks a lot louder than words.

jaybate 8 years, 9 months ago

What I love about each new basketball season is the way the unforeseen intervenes and upsets completely what was expected.

Brannen Greene's diversion has already put him at a slight disadvantage that could determine Greene to be the redshirt instead of Andrew White III.

What will come next?

Some things happen every season.

Will it be an injury?

Or will it be an inappropriate behavior?

Will an expected star, like Elijah Johnson, struggle and underperform due to injury?

Will someone get their feelings hurt under Self's needle and leave?

Will one of the new players turned out not to be nearly as advanced as was expected?

Will there be a new scandal?

Will war come with Syria and cause the suspension of the season due to domestic insecurity?

Will there be a government shutdown that closes the University and forces closure of Allen Fieldhouse and the practice facility and suspends payment of scholarships?

Will there turn out to be a need for a new kind of offense, or defense, or both, because of these unexpected events?

Which player, or players, will be pressed into service, and trigger the doubtful to say, "if that player plays significant minutes, then this team has no chance of having a good season."

These things happen every year just as winter follows fall and spring follows winter.

All plans and strategies for a campaign exist intact only until the unexpected begins and all hell breaks loose.

People too often forget that it is not so much talent and skill that is the deciding factor of athletic accomplishment and winning titles and rings.

Those are just ante.

Who actually wins and loses is determined by who is best, when all hell breaks loose.

The recruiting gurus never even try to account for this attribute.

The statistical services, like KENPOM, have no attribute for this.

Yet each season, it is the team with sufficient skill and talent, and that adapts most effectively to the unexpected that wins.

Once one acquires sufficient talent and skill, coaches and players superb in adapting tactics to situations are the most important resource to possess in any competitive activity.

Patton's epigram never ages.

"Good tactics can save bad strategies, but good strategies cannot save bad tactics."

jaybate 8 years, 9 months ago

On a five man roster, it is not even close. Brannen gets the nod every time, unless Conner is a budding John Stockton. Size matters.

But for a rotation and the desire to be able to go big, or small, then Brannen gets into a numbers game with White, not with Conner.

The big question for Brannen and Conner and White is: who can guard their positions THIS SEASON?

It doesn't help a whit to go small, if Conner can't guard a small guard? Much better to go long even if Brannen and AW3 don't know a rebound from a TO.

But if Conner can guard a small D1 guard better than AW3, or Brannen, then it all comes down to shooting IMHO.

And if it comes down to shooting, according to Self, if Conner can get his shot off in D1, Conner is the best shooter of the 3 out of the blocks.

Trey Burke proved how critical a long range trey is in D1 now.

In the NCAAs, the refs will almost never call a foul on last second shot. So: a great trey artist has either to have such XTReme Range that he can shoot before they can foul him, or he has to be so fast they can't get to him to foul him--and have decent range. It is no longer enough to be tall and/or a leaper at the end of games. You've got to be able to drain it from 30-35 feet at crunch time. Burke may even have been out at 38!!

My hunch is that Brannen Greene is probably just as good, or better, of a trey shooter than Conner from the trey stripe to three feet farther out, but that Conner is more accurate, so far, 30-35 feet out.

Also, ralster, there is another thing to consider in comparing the two guys as shooters, something even Self hasn't mentioned publicly yet.

Self has commented that Conner, who is short, has to prove he can get his shot off against bigger players closing in on him in D1.

What Self has not said is that Brannen, who is tall even for a D1 shooting guard, has to prove the same thing.

What do I mean here?

Well, Conner, at 6-0, is used to having his shot contested all his life. His shooting touch is long adjusted to it. All Conner has to do is prove if he can still shoot it accurately with even taller guys contesting him. Its a significant uncertainty, but perhaps a lesser one than that facing a guy that has never had to shoot contested treys in his high school career, because of his height.

Brannen faces the same problem Andrew White III faced last season and could not surmount, at least in the time alotted him. Brannen, at 6-7, has almost never had his trey contested in his high school career. He has always shot with the comfort level of most college guards barely being able to get up into his face, much less actually facing guys that could get a hand even with his shooting hand, or a few inches above his shooting hand.

jaybate 8 years, 9 months ago

Basically, Brannen Greene and Andrew White III, because of both their heights, spent high school taking uncontested treys most of the time, with their foot on the trey stripe, even when a guy was guarding them. In D1, however, they will only get uncontested (i.e., wide open looks) at the stripe occassionally. And they will much more often have to go out at least to 25-27 feet to get them.

Conner is used to shooting over people his size and taller. He is used to shaking loose of people to get his shot off. He is used to coming off screens to get loose. He is used to running away from defenders to get his trey off. He is used to going even farther outside to get his trey. His highschool trey percentage has all of that built into it. Brannne's stunningly good .52 from trey probably does not. Its not a knock on him. He didn't have to, so why should he have? But now he is going to have to move and set up deeper and get used to the strain of a significant number of D1 player being able to get up and block his shot.

Brannen is not, just as Andrew was not. It remains to be seen, whether it will screw with Brannen's accuracy the way it did with Andrew's, or not. And I am not picking on Andrew here either. Conner Teahan was another guy that found long closers a lot tougher to shoot on than when he was 2-3 inches taller than his opponents in high school.

But one thing Trey Burke reaffirmed last season: it doesn't matter much how tall you are, if you can bury it from 35 you are pretty much LSD in kicks to even the best defense (i.e., you are taking the game to another realm they don't know how to guard).

Either way, Brannen or Conner, or Andrew or Connner, or Brannen or Andrew, games iare what reality is convert questions into answers about who can do what where and when.

Jonathan Allison 8 years, 9 months ago

Very good point on Conner being already accustomed to shooting deeper, coming off screens, fighting through double teams etc, just to get off his shot. He knows what it's like to only have a split second window to fire away, but in college will have to be even more discretionary.

However, I highly doubt that Bill Self will award playing time based on his ability to shoot from 30+ feet out, ESPECIALLY, if Brannen actually is better from 25' and in. The only exception to this might be in a last second, down by three, "chop play" scenario, in which case both Greene and Frankamp may be in the game as the #1 (ball screen) and #2 (flare screen) options from long range.

Michael Luby 8 years, 9 months ago

But thats the point Jaybate was making. Will Brannen's shot be able to adjust this year to more pressure? He certainly will have to make shots when he is in.

Michael Luby 8 years, 9 months ago

Yeah man, I swear to General Patton's .45 that Trey Burke was closer to half court when he hit that huge 3 point shot.

AverageCitizen 8 years, 9 months ago

Leaders "set the bar" and "show the way". Some kids learn better by watching and are shown the way by observing. Some kids are shown the way by listening. Perry is a leader by example. Those players that respond to imitating Perry's hard work, the time and effort he puts in are being lead too. We can and do have more than one leader on this team that fits each players learning style.

jaybate 8 years, 9 months ago


In all competitive activities, many kinds of personalities can lead until the critical objective, or overriding goal, hang in the balance. Once these moments occur, only those that can get it done are followed willingly. Talk and charisma grow increasingly cheap in the eyes of those caught in the crosshairs as the need to get out of those crosshairs grows critically urgent. Many appointed leaders serve no other function than to occupy the role until the critical moments come and the true leaders assert themselves. The question always to ask is: who will the team want saving it's bacon at crunch time? That is always the true leader. Most players on a team, regardless of who the coach appoints as captains, or who the coach points as the point guard, know who can get it done...who the real leaders are. The talkers who point and direct teammates around the court are often just traffic cops during the conventional parts of the game. Almost anyone that a coach appoints can be the traffic cop for those times. Everyone needs a traffic cop. Sometimes the traffic cop is the real leader. Sometimes he is the guy that can get it done. But just goes offen, he is not.

So far, this team has three potential candidates for who can "get it done." They are: Perry Ellis, Wayne Selden, and Andrew Wiggins. One of these three will prove the alpha male at getting it done. Wiggins talks the role. Selden talks the role. Perry is silent. But in the and, what matters most is what the teammates believe about the three players. Which guy can get it done? Which guy do you want to live and die with?

KansasComet 8 years, 9 months ago

Perry Ellis: Actions speak louder than words! Thanks. I agree with you.

texashawk10 8 years, 9 months ago

I don't necessarily agree with HEM's take about Perry not being a leader. Perry may never be the vocal leader this team needs or he very well could just be deferring to Tharpe and Black right now because KU doesn't need him to be a vocal leader this year. It also very well could end the Ellis never develops into a vocal leader because his personality just isn't suited to that role. I'm not going to be surprised either way because I can realistically see Perry in either role.

That said, I believe teams need both kinds of leaders to be successful. You need the hard worker that coaches can point to as an example of doing what it takes to be successful and isn't going to get rattled when things aren't going good. You also need the vocal leader who can rally the troops that will show some emotion for the team to feed off of and can keep the positive momentum going when things are going well.

Hawk8086 8 years, 9 months ago

I agree that Perry does not appear to be the one to be a vocal leader. He can lead by example. That is fine as long as we have other vocal leaders (Tharpe, Black). They certainly appear to have that potential, but they have to prove effective in that roll. It doesn't mean Perry can't be a vocal leader in the future....but it doesn't come naturally to him and he doesn't appear to be at that point now (we'll see how the year plays out).

REHawk 8 years, 9 months ago

Tho be it of the silent hardworking variety, a multiple state champion MVP has already demonstrated a huge leadership role to those with whom he has played...and those whom he has outplayed. Perry might yet morph into a more vocal leader; but, for certain, he is a McDonald's All-American winner in the eyes of those who are following in his wake. I view this current cadre of recruits as a steady hardworking group, more inclined than the average group of newcomers to grasp the longtime and recent traditions surrounding Jayhawk basketball and championship offerings of the current coaching/training personnel. Perry is an essential element of this year's starting squad. A player who struggled for several months his freshman campaign until the game slowed down for him, and his developing skills caught fire. I envision the likes of the Wiggins, Seldens, Frankamps, Embiids paying heed to Perry's style, both on and off the court. He is closer to the razor's edge of the honing process than are they, at this early juncture of the 2013-14 season. I am wagering that his influence will affect their growth in more and deeper fashion than any of us will witness or, perhaps, imagine. In quiet style he has already won solid respect and admiration from most of the posters on this site. If he should evolve into a more vocal leader, that skill will grow incrementally, probably not ever very obviously. He represents stability and tons of hope.

Jonathan Allison 8 years, 9 months ago

woh, REHawk, slow down with all the "razor's edge" stuff. You're starting to sound too much like 'Bate.

Steve Gantz 8 years, 9 months ago

I like to think of him as the Commodore, as in Commodore Oliver Hazard Perry, the hero of the battle of Lake Erie in the War of 1812. And listen to this relevant to KU quote of his: "Commanding officers are particularly enjoined to pay attention in preserving their stations in the Line, and in all cases to keep as near the LAWRENCE as possible. ...Engage your designated adversary, in close action".
Commodore, lead your team! Engage your designated adversary!

Jack Wilson 8 years, 9 months ago

Ok, to make sure everyone is clear on what I said, though I tried to emphasize it by using italics -- I said Ellis is not suited to be the leader .. THE leader.

It's quite clear that he can be a leader ... A leader. And his role would be as he said, leading by example. My post said, "He can be a leader by example." By being quiet and non-verbal, that's about all he can offer.

In crunch time, if a guy can't verbalize to his teammates, sits quietly on the bench, but you throw the ball to him and he scores, that is not being a leader. That's a go-to guy. That's much different than real leadership. And that's not the leader I'm talking about.

In basketball, I'm talking about the guy that motivates, that inspires, that directs, that is the extension of the coach on the floor. Laid back guys that can't (or won't) talk simply can't be that leader .. they can't be THE leader.

I completely disagree with the premise that simply because someone is the best player, he's a leader. Simply being the best player does not, alone, demonstrate leadership. Winning Kansas state championships, I'm quite sure, isn't the least bit impressive to the KU freshmen

Just curious, how does anyone know that the 5'9" point guard who scored 2 points a game wasn't the leader on Ellis' high school team, or whowever it might have been? There are many, many "best players" that are the antithesis of "leader." As an example, I'm quite sure that Demarcus Cousins was the best dude on most every team he played on. Heck, he probably is right now. Leader? No. Extreme example, of course. But a great majority of guys in the NBA were the best players on their teams, but are most of the those guys "leaders?" No.

I have no idea why we feel the need to somehow validate Ellis' role on the team by casting him as a leader.


milehighhawk 8 years, 9 months ago

So Ellis is a leader but not the leader?

I think we can all agree on that & all agree that Friday can't come soon enough!

REHawk 8 years, 9 months ago

I feel certain that you truly do have no idea. Some minds lend themselves to broader scope.

jaybate 8 years, 9 months ago

Part 1

This is a very interesting difference of opinion on the nature of leadership.

HEM = Verbal guy.

REHawk/Comet/dumbbate = Get her done guy.

milehighhawk = both

@ HEM: From my POV, it is not always the best player that is the leader, just as it is not always the traffic cop that is the leader. My experience of playing on teams in sports and in work is this: there are people that can get things done and these are the bulwarks of teams that the other team members look to when the going gets tough and when the decisive moment is at hand. They look to this person for assurance that the coach, or manager, is playing the situation correctly. whether or not, the get-her-done guy's number is called. You listen to the traffic cop, but you look into the eyes of the get-her-done guy. You get courage and confidence from the get-her-done guy. You trust that player. You are willing to live and die with his judgement, whether he shouts, "Yes, let's do it this way," or he simply looks around with supreme resolve. Danny Manning was the get-her-done guy of the '88 team and also the superstar. Manning was the guy who went along with running it down their throats, when Brown wanted them to play half court and so play to the strength of Manning the low post beast. It was probably Kevin who said let's take it to them, but when he said it, and did it, it was Mannings eyes the team looked into to for reassurance, for fire, for resolve, for, yes, we do or die this way. Manning is probably the only man on earth right now that could have set on the bench with Self, who is a supreme Get-It-Done leader, and been the guy that many on the team looked to. Self would never have recommended Manning for Tulsa had Manning not had this XTReme Get-her-done quality.

On the '08 team, Brandon Rush was the get-it-done leader of the team. Mario Chalmers was a great, great, GREAT clutch shooter--the kind of guy you want to take a last second shot. He is so great at it that he is defaulted to even on a team with Lebron. But on the '08 team, and on the Heat, when the going got tough, and/or when the coach called out Chalmer's number for a crunch shot, I will bet you dollars to donuts that the teammates searched the eyes of Brandon Rush and Lebron James for the conviction that this was the right call. These kinds of get-it-done leaders have some kind of difficult to explain personality. They have some strange ability to make human beings believe something is attainable with or without speaking. I have even been on teams where the get-her-done guy was a weak athletic link on a team.

jaybate 8 years, 9 months ago

Part 2

@ HEM Continued: Therefore, it could possibly be Naadir Tharpe that becomes the guy on this team, but so far, of the two, I know in that huddle, I would be looking at Perry, when Self uncorked one of his "we're going to run this option" for the win speeches. Naadir is going to be a very effective distributor, and he is going to be a good traffic cop, which as I said every team needs. But Ellis is the trellis. Ellis is what the team grows on. Ellis is who has to believe in what Self is selling when the going gets tough, or at crunch time, for the rest of the team to believe. No doubt, AWigs will do much more astounding things than Perry will. He is, at least by reputation, one of those athletes that comes along once in a decade. He might even have the magic quantity of a get-her-done guy, too. And if he has it, it will come down to which guy has more of it, not which guy is the best player, or the most verbal. Eyes are windows to the soul in leadership. To know for sure who will be "the leader," you would have to be on the team at practices right now. You would have to be in the huddles, when Self is ranting about this or that player, or this or that drill, and see the eyes of the teammates and who they glance to to say, "Is this shizz for real, or not? Is he just venting, or do we change for him?" Coaches can get players to walk through walls for them. But they can only get teams to believe if the leader believes.

@ REHawk/Comet/dumbate: we all need to respect HEM's take, because he usually gives it a good long think, and he usually makes sense, and in these sorts of discussions, definitions can vary and so it can take awhile to get on the same page regarding those definitions in order to then understand whether disagreement remains, or whether we are caught up in being on different different definitions.

@ milehighhawk: Long ago now, USC Professor Bart Kosko made clear in "Fuzzy Logic," that at times A and Not A can be true in fuzzy logic decision models. The universe he correctly recognized, has a bivalent aspect, at least from a human POV, to it, beyond the aspect of mysticism and rational empiricism. Some activities can be A under certain conditions and Not A under others. It once annoyed scholars mightily that Kosko casually kicked some of the foundations out from under rational empiricism simply to program fuzzy logic routines into thermostatic functions and car parking routines and then got a chuckle out of it, too. But he did it and we are all the better for it, just the same as we are all the better for the physicists that embraced the apparent contradictions of Quantum Theory and later even proved that abandoning the locality assumption at certain realms of inquiry made sense, because quantum entanglement was rather matter of fact, at the sub atomic realm. Therefore your point may be valid, whether you were jesting or not.

REHawk 8 years, 9 months ago

jb, I bow to your call for moderation in this discussion. HEM does occasionally stir my sudden urge to slap iron and fire from the hip. I am one of these old guys who never comfortably subjected myself to the clamorous din of the drill instructor. I respond much better to the lead by example guy, even in urgent crisis moments. I see Perry Ellis becoming THAT guy. Am very amped to watch his impact this season, esp. within the framework of Tharpe and the 3 starting newbies.

jaybate 8 years, 9 months ago

Perry with a trey this year + Selden with a trey = AWigs runs wild to iron.

Perry with a trey = long NBA career.

jaybate 8 years, 9 months ago

Perry with a trey + ball handling skills +rebounding skills = a Larry Bird before the back injury

Hops, long ball, handles and chops?

It made Red Auerbach say Bird could be the best basketball player ever.

And he was so great with Tiny that first season Auerbach looked vindicated.

Perry, train to drain from 30, like Bird did. Become a passing savant like Bird did. Learn to put it on the deck either handed. And learn to get dirty when you have to.

A 6-8 to 6-9 athlete that can drain from 30 and put it on the deck with either hand, and play the three can become the rarest of the rare. He can swing 3-4 and force them to guard him everywhere, and at that point, he cannot be stopped anywhere.

A 6-8 to 6-9 power forward that can drain from 30 and put it on the deck from the three/four with either hand is one of the four most dangerous players alive. The others are a super center, a 6-9 point guard and a 6-6 shooting guard that can shoot the trey, put it on the deck, and go 46 vertical.

A 6-8 to 6-9 player that can drain it from 30 doesn't need someone to stretch a defense for him. He stretches it all by himself.

You have the tools and the mind to go after this.

It is feasible, if you are willing to dream this big.

Don't worry if AWigs can out sky you.

Lots of people could out sky Bird.

At the three/four, at 6-8 to 6-9, there is no antidote for money from 30 and ambidexterity on the deck.

Michael Luby 8 years, 9 months ago

Perry with a trey and better handles would be amazing this year. Will Coach let it happen? His game plan in the past doesnt suggest he will. But, this year his game plan should be to consider every advantage from his players, spread the floor, rock the rim.

Jonathan Allison 8 years, 9 months ago

I'm going to take a stab at this...

active players

A 6-8 to 6-9 power forward that can drain from 30 and put it on the deck from the three/four -- Kevin Durant with either hand is one of the four most dangerous players alive. The others are a super center --Dwight Howard, a 6-9 point guard -- Lebron and a 6-6 shooting guard that can shoot the trey, put it on the deck, and go 46 vertical -- Kobe Bryant.


Bird, Wilt(or Shaq for a beefier, less refined type), Magic (since I already used Lebron), MJ

OK, so Perry Ellis may never be KD, because KD is a SG with PF height while Ellis is a PF with the option of a developing perimeter skill set. Embiid may lack DH's muscle, but that can be improved. Wiggins may lack Kobe's stroke, but we'll see how close he can get. So who is going to be Lebron/Magic? Actually Perry physically may be better gifted to imitate Lebron.

Ian Emerson 8 years, 9 months ago

You actually saw Larry Legend play in college!? That's an amazing thing to be able to say.

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