Wednesday, September 26, 2012


Forget the strikeouts; Self’s still landing top recruits

Switzerland's Stefan Petkovic, right, and Kansas University's Perry Ellis, battle in Fribourg, Switzerland, Tuesday, Aug. 7, 2012.

Switzerland's Stefan Petkovic, right, and Kansas University's Perry Ellis, battle in Fribourg, Switzerland, Tuesday, Aug. 7, 2012.


Every time a headline informs that Kansas University missed out on a highly rated basketball recruit, many local voices wonder, “Why can’t Bill Self and his staff get anybody anymore?”

It’s human nature to remember losses longer than victories, but a close inspection of the numbers reveals KU’s scoring rate for elite recruits has remained the same for the past quarter-century. That encompasses the reigns of Roy Williams, who spent 15 years on the job, and Bill Self, entering his 10th season heading the region’s dominant basketball program.

No measure perfectly captures a coach’s success in landing top recruits, but getting players who earn one of the 24 annual invitations to participate in the McDonald’s All-American game ranks as the best.

In his 15 recruiting seasons at Kansas, Williams landed 15 McDonald’s All-Americans who played for the Jayhawks: Darin Hancock, Calvin Rayford, Jacque Vaughn, Raef LaFrentz, Paul Pierce, Ryan Robertson, Lester Earl, Kenny Gregory, Eric Chenowith, Jeff Boschee, Nick Collison, Aaron Miles, Wayne Simien, J.R. Giddens and David Padgett (Chris Davis, an honoree in 1992, signed with KU, but failed to qualify).

In nine completed recruiting seasons at Kansas, Self has landed nine McDonald’s All-Americans: Mario Chalmers, Micah Downs, Julian Wright, Darrell Arthur, Sherron Collins, Cole Aldrich, Xavier Henry, Josh Selby and Perry Ellis.

So for both coaches, the ratio works out to exactly one hamburger All-American per season. Why then when Kansas misses on a recruit do the distraught voices seem louder than in the past? Easy. Recruiting is covered more intensely now than ever. Way back when, except in extreme cases, landing a recruit had a much better chance of drawing a headline than missing out on one. Now, both hits and misses make big news.

KU made it all the way to the NCAA title game last April without a McDonald’s All-American on the roster, but tracking the totals does make for an interesting way to gauge how realistic some are in reacting to recruiting news.

“Frustrated,” captures how many might feel about the current KU recruiting season, but if Self stopped right now — which he won’t, of course — chances are high one of his two committed recruits will earn McDonald’s All-American honors. ranks Brannen Greene, a 6-foot-7 forward from Forsyth, at No. 22 in the Class of 2013, and has Conner Frankamp, a 6-foot guard from Wichita, ranked 27th.

Yet, many probably won’t consider this year a success unless Self lands one of the nation’s top two recruits. Julius Randle, a 6-9 forward from Plano, Texas, teamed in high school with KU freshman Zach Peters. Jabari Parker, a 6-8 forward from Chicago Public League powerhouse Simien High, also includes Kansas on his long list.


Robin Smith 10 years, 2 months ago

He's taken a vocal minority and portrayed them as legions of dissenting voices. Many of this minority don't really know what they're talking about either.Kansas currently has the 6th best recruiting class in the country. Keegan is writing an article basically TO the negative comment posters, which gives a misrepresentation of the KU fanbase to the masses. It's like if there was a football article and I went and posted repeatedly, in caps, that Crist should be benched and we should replace him with a dog and then Keegan wrote an article about how "Football minds suggest animal replacement; Weis not bowing to pressure."

dylans 10 years, 2 months ago

A very vocal minority. But also a major topic of discussion on these boards. Coincidentally Keegans articles are also seen here. hmm

Robin Smith 10 years, 2 months ago

"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold; Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world, ... The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity."

A major point of discussion because a few chicken littles sound the alarm repeatedly and annoyingly, while the vast majority of the discussion involves countering them -- much like this very article. Two sides of an argument given equal attention when they don't have equal backing - that's faux reasonability that somehow fools many people. Like what passes for discussions on faux news TV: here is so-and-so distinguished expert with xyz credentials come to discuss this peer-vetted, meticulous research. and here in opposition, in order to be balanced, we have a crackpot ideologue who looks respectable enough and who disagrees because he feels like it. These two perspectives are not equal and should not be equally dignified.

Find one reputable recruiting analyst who says Self is dropping the ball. If it were true there would be articles, blogs, tweets, something about it.

Robin Smith 10 years, 2 months ago

In fact, I've just done a search for articles and the only one that even appears to second the minorities cries is this article, which is in direct refutation of their opinion.

Every other article that I found regarding Self and recruiting speaks of how "he usually gets what he wants", that "he is an outstanding recruiter", and that we "already have a tremendous class" in addition to the great class we have this year.

Stephen Johnson 10 years, 2 months ago

agreed. some people would hate on keegs if he wrote the next great american novel

Robin Smith 10 years, 2 months ago

I'm having a hard time fathoming this paradox :D

hawk316 10 years, 2 months ago

jsatt, just "ok?" I think Keegan has correctly identified why some KU fans seem to think that Coach Self is losing his touch in recruiting. In addition, Keegan only barely hinted that KU has also landed a great many very talented players who were bypassed for the McDonald's game (as he referenced, one need only to recall certain members of last year's team that went to the national finals).

We need to remember that there are only so many spots available on a team roster, that there are many excellent programs in the country with many outstanding coaches/recruiters, and there are a multitude of considerations players confront that may determine where they ultimately choose to go to school.

Bill Self and his top notch staff do an amazing job in recruiting. It's time for some of the Jayhawk faithful to open their eyes to this fact and stop wringing their hands every time we lose out on a highly publicized recruit.

JamesKman13 10 years, 2 months ago

I think people realize he still gets good recruits and recruiting classes. I think the reason people think he's slipped some is because when he came to KU he brought in multiple McD's AAs. The 2005 and 2006 recruiting classes were amazing. Chalmers, Rush, Downs and Wright were amazing. 3 McD's AAs and Rush who couldn't be a McD's AA(I forget why). Then in '06 he brought in Collins and Arthur. 2 McD's AAs. He's still getting top notch recruits, but they're not coming in bunches anymore.

Ashwin Rao 10 years, 2 months ago

I agree... I knew that it was Keegs as soon as I saw the title & subject... "Some random thoughts coming my way", I said to myself... I did read through Keegs article though!

ArgyleJayhawks 10 years, 2 months ago

Enough people actually think Self is having troubling recruiting to write this story? I find that hard to believe.

Fototherapist 10 years, 2 months ago

You're absolutely right. People seem to forget that Self is probably the best coach in the country and has a habit of taking a rag tag bunch of guys and getting them to play like champions every year. Very few coaches can do that.

Robin Smith 10 years, 2 months ago

I'm in complete agreement.

Selden and Shepherd/Vonleh would be the perfect complements to our current wing and guard recruits. Though, I should say, I'm a fan of all of the guys we're recruiting, just, Selden looks beastly and those two bigs fill pivotal needs :D

Robin Smith 10 years, 2 months ago

'Scouts have also seen the type of effort Shepherd puts into the game and what a high-character guy he is.

"Karviar is the best leader and teammate of any high-level player I have seen in the last couple years," said's Alan Branch, who has followed Shepherd for a number of years. "He plays equally as hard on both ends of the floor. He blocks shots, takes charges, rebounds and is a verbal leader on defense."

Signing early is not out of the question for Shepherd, who said, "I could sign early; it will depend on how my visits go and how I feel after the visits." '

Sounds even more awesome. So he's beginning his campus visits this week with A&M and presumably finishing up with our Late Night. Hopefully the raucous AFH can seal the deal.

Jonathan Allison 10 years, 2 months ago

ah yes, I just remembered that you used to go by azalum and mulaza around here...

KJ Quartermaine 10 years, 2 months ago

lol, you're the genius dissing Self and his abilities to recruit top flight PGs on KU Sports website. So my guess is that you are surely a Mizzou fan

ahpersecoachingexperience 10 years, 2 months ago

Sorry. I get a little crazy when we lose at home to a bottom feeding cusa team and on the road to a Mac team who's stadium is so small it couldn't host a basketball tournament regional. I'll get my meds adjusted!

Robin Smith 10 years, 2 months ago

don't forget me! I also am in an indignant huff over that!

KGphoto 10 years, 2 months ago

The only answer to that question, IMO, is fit. As in, they'll have to fit into something else instead of something else fitting to them. It's a lot of work playing for Self. He'll break you down and build you back, and there are no two ways about it. I think it's a big reason Selby had a bad year. Other than injury, he was still not allowed to just be Selby. He had to do it Self's way.

It's exactly why I don't want to try OADs anymore. 2-3 year guys "fit" into the machine Self has tuned over the years.

jaybate 10 years, 2 months ago

Given: JayShagged wears stilletoes. :-)

You're just too easy, JayShagger.

nuleafjhawk 10 years, 2 months ago

Every time a headline informs that Kansas University missed out on a highly rated basketball recruit, many local voices wonder, “Why can’t Bill Self and his staff get anybody anymore?”

One of the things that baffles me more than anything else ( and LOTS of stuff baffles me! ) is the fact that people put so much faith in the ranking numbers.

You would think after a National Championship, a NC appearance last year, 8 straight - yes, EIGHT straight conference championships, that at least we ( Jayhawk Nation ) would start to get it.

The numbers mean SQUAT. Nothing. Zip. Zilch. Nada.

We've had #1's and #2's that barely contributed (some would say not at all) and we've had very low (or unranked) players tear up the league.

The ONLY number that matters to me is how many W's we get.

Bill Self don't know numbers - he knows talent.

Ron Franklin 10 years, 2 months ago

I understand where you are coming from, but our talented seniors just lost a National Title to a bunch of freshmen and sophomores with those 'useless' indicators of talent that happened to be in the top 10. Those numbers are not the be all, end all, but they do mean a lot. Not only is it nice to land one, but to have the constant marketing of Kids listing KU on their Nationally Publicized lists is a positive of the ranking systems also.

nuleafjhawk 10 years, 2 months ago

BlownJay, I also understand your point of view (isn't it great that we all get along so well? lol), but if I want to nitpick, we really only had two seniors that contributed much, Tyshawn and Conner, and as much as I like Conner, he just wasn't a great basketball player. A good, smart, solid contributor, but not someone that struck fear in other teams.

I agree that the high profile players are good publicity for most teams, but sometimes that works against you too. If you get a OAD that turns out to be what is considered a "flop", do the future recruits say " this guy was a 30/15 guy in High School, why can't he perform at Kansas (or wherever). Then when you take guys that are ONLY ranked in the top 50 or so and the Coach turns them into Lottery picks, they might think " Hmmmmmm - I believe I'll go check out Kansas - this Self guy seems to know what he's doing".

Derek Conway 10 years, 2 months ago

"we've had very low (or unranked) players tear up the league."

Not sure who you are referring to here.?.?

nuleafjhawk 10 years, 2 months ago

Admittedly, I get a little excited about KU basketball sometimes. "Tear up the league" may have been a tad exaggerated - BUT - consider the following players rankings: (in no particular order)

  • Travis Releford - 70
  • Thomas Robinson - 31
  • Jeff Withey - 36
  • Markieff Morris - 49
  • Cole Aldrich - 30
  • Marcus Morris - 29
  • Sasha Kaun - 34

I guess that's the point I was trying to make. When we actively recruite guys that have these kinds of rankings, everyone gets all riled up because we're not going after " elite " players. These guys are all pretty dang elite in my book. Because Self knows what he's doing.

Robin Smith 10 years, 2 months ago

Tyshawn Taylor was 77 too. On top of that we must consider of the overall strength of the class, which is hard to guage because one year's 30 might be as good as another year's 10.

The recruiting is consistently good.

RCJGKU_Seve 10 years, 2 months ago

First time log.....HCBS apparently knows what he is doing. I want nothing to do with OAD's. He's been successful with Top 50 players and recruits for chemistry....he does have a recruiting plan trust me! FYI, Connor from lil ole Wichita where Perry came thee second coming of Pistol Pete. He is a better passer than a shooter and ya'll will love his pure he can get his own shot or deliver a pass off his dribble. Would love a couple more inches on him but then again thats some of his can he do what he does being that small?!?!?! He has proven it internationally and will also do so in da Phog! He will deliver without having to shoot and he has range like the legendary Pete....he will be a fine Jayhawk....mark my word!

Jim Roth 10 years, 2 months ago

That would be more of a smear than a log, if memory serves.

dylans 10 years, 2 months ago

Or a black bubble if pointed in the air.

Jonathan Allison 10 years, 2 months ago

I didn't have to look it up, as my memory is fairly fresh, and my 5 days old son's first meconium definitely was more of a log.

DoctorTK 10 years, 2 months ago

LOL. Thanks a lot for refreshing my memory.

Stephen Johnson 10 years, 2 months ago

Connor Frankamp is looking like a better player than everyone thought he was when HCBS first signed him. He has continued to catch peoples attention and has risen in the rankings. I also believe that Brannen Greene is going to be a special player. What I don't understand is why we have trouble getting top ranked big men to come to KU. Despite HCBS success in getting big men to the next level, the highly ranked big men rarely give KU a second look.

Jory Collins 10 years, 2 months ago

I don't believe we do. Aldrich, Kaun, Robinson, Withey, Jackson, Morris Twins, Shady, and Ellis. That's 9 guys fairly recently who were all 4 or 5 star recruits. Don't forget that Peters was a five star ranked player as a sophomore when he committed to KU. He dropped because he quit playing on the AAU circuit. He was offered by KU, Baylor, OU, Texas and being recruited by Carolina and Kentucky. We just got him way early.

Tony Bandle 10 years, 2 months ago

I'll admit it...had to look up the meaning of meconium.....I'm sorry I did!!

nuleafjhawk 10 years, 2 months ago


Me too.

Sorry I had to look it up and sorry I did.

Chad DeShazo 10 years, 2 months ago

Dammit, I was not going to look it up until you guys did...

JayDocMD 10 years, 2 months ago

I'll wager this is the 1st and last ever meconium thread on

I'm not gonna lie - I'm pretty proud of myself.

Ron Franklin 10 years, 2 months ago

I about lost my nuts and bolts when Roy left for UNC.

Since then, Self has proven he can get it done with whatever talent he does or doesn't have on the bench. If we ever have a run of sub 25-win seasons, that is when I'll start to be concerned.

Until then--I continue to enjoy all of the recruiting insight (especially what is brought here by the bloggers)--but I refuse to get my panties all bunched up over missing out on a kid here and there.

cabmando 10 years, 2 months ago

Did everyone think Selby was THE TOP rated player in the country the year he arrived? We all did because of the hype of recruiting services. Hindsite says no, so does it really matter what number is attached to each player by a so called expert? I'll leave the evaluating to the head coach.

Jack Wilson 10 years, 2 months ago

Do you realize how you contradict yourself? You rely upon Coach Self's evaluation skills .. and he pursued the guy, fought other top schools, watched him play , worked hard to land him .. why? As yourself that.

See, coach Self .. yes, coach Self .. evaluated Selby as a top player. So did other top coaches. Not just Rivals.

By the way, hindsight tells you nothing. He started late, was injured, dealing with a top team that had reliable rotation guys. The kid was here one season. Three seasons, you might have had an all-american. Toss that hindsight thing out the window .. that is, unless you want to say that Self didn't know what he was doing.

JayDocMD 10 years, 2 months ago

I don't regret Self recruiting and signing Selby. My only regret with Selby is that he didn't stay a second year to show everyone how dominant a college player he would have been.

newmedia 10 years, 2 months ago

The Jayhawks will do just fine as usual. Very thankful for the work everyone from the coaches to the team managers do to put a great team on the floor each season. Prefer not to have a team of "one and done's" each year regardless of what the people in Kentucky think...

Rock Chalk

Bob Thompson 10 years, 2 months ago

Think about this. If you were wanting to get on a team, wouldn't you say that you wanted to play for the best team in the US (Kansas). Even if you didn't want to play at Kansas. That way, the lower level team would sign up up fast before Kansas got you. We may appear to be loosing some good players, but who's to say that they really wanted to come to KU in the first place.

Jayhawk444 10 years, 2 months ago

this is very true. a lot of guys have KU on their list, but they do not have any intention of coming here. Plus many players that list KU are not on KU's list, either - even though they might really want to com here. works both ways.

Ted Hume 10 years, 2 months ago

The only caveat I see with the list of nine McD's for Self is that 4 of them were on the title team- no surprise, of course, but it does have a way of = ultimate success in the game.

I do agree though, that recruiting hits and misses fluctuate without rhyme or reason like virtual particles in a vacuum

addlime 10 years, 2 months ago

+100 Exactly! To win it all you usually have to get a few of these guys together and KU has struggled with that. Furthermore, while I agree with the broad sentiment that coach Self knows what he's doing, it should be noted that he goes pretty hard after most of these top recruits. It's not like he is choosing not to recruit them.

If there is anything valid behind some people's frustrations with recruiting, it is that we all expected the ratio of mcd all Americans to go up after 2008 and it didn't. Again, many seem to be predicting that after last season, but there is no historical evidence to support that. I'm more concerned about the loss of DMan and the effect on recruiting bigs.

jaybate 10 years, 2 months ago

"2012 Finals: would KU have beaten UK, if:

a) Elijah had not needed knee surgery, hit 40-45% of his treys, taken 5 more trey attempts, and held his man to 5 fewer points;

b) Travis had been healthy, scored 5 more points and held Kidd-Gilchrist to 5 fewer?

Answer: yes. plus Elijah healthy would have stretched the D, which would have let TRob foul up UK's bigs one on one, so the game could then easily have turned into a route of UK.

I make this case now to show that Cal's and WWW's system only "worked" against a team without depth with two starters playing so injured as to be at 50-75% efficiency.

Self's experienced teams will beat Cal's inexperienced ones a majority of the time, even when the ShoeCo-Summer Game-Agency Complex loads Cal with 5-6 OADs.

Rock Chalk!

Tony Bandle 10 years, 2 months ago

JB....even simpler answer....TRob and Withey don't miss their Jambs, EJ pump fakes Unibrow, draws triple foul shot, nails all and Tyshawn steals ball as clock runs out.

That's truly how close we were to beating the "Team of the Century"!!!

addlime 10 years, 2 months ago

Jaybate, I think you underestimate the competitiveness of div 1 athletes. UK was in control start to finish. Surely they may have been able to step up their games were they in a dogfight. Of course, this is all speculation, but I find these sort of post game hypotheses useless, especially if one is trying to put some kind of odds on what could have happened.

jaybate 10 years, 2 months ago


A word to the wise. Never, ever, read my posts if you think post game hypotheses (note: the correct term is counter factual inferences) are a waste of time.

UK was only six deep. Gianni Calimari knew his only chance was to go for everything from the tip and build a big league on a team with two injured starters. Cal worked us over good early. How many energy booster drinks do you think they shot before that game?

Cal did exactly what Self did to beat UNC in the semi's in 2008. UK shot their wad. That was every thing they had. They actually got tired down the stretch. KU came back the same way UNC did.

If EJ and Travis had been healthy, and EJ had had a good night from trey, KU would have won. Period.

And if you look at some of the other posters above, you will find the other ways that KU could have beaten the supposedly superior team.

Slayr, a poster here that I respect a good deal, had me believing Cal pulled his punches. I've watched it again, and I've watched it knowing that EJ had a knee needing surgery and three months rest, and watched Travis dragging that one leg behind him against a great player in Kidd-Gilchrist, and I am now convinced Cal did not pull punches. To the contrary, he popped the cork on an extremely shallow and young team and hoped to get an early lead and the breaks with the officiating against a team with two injured starters and just about as thin. It was a good gamble. But he could easily have crapped out.

Andy Tweedy 10 years, 2 months ago

Wasn't BEN Davis a McD All-American? I mean if we're listing Chris Davis, who never played for KU, wouldn't we list a guy who actually did play for us? That completely invalidates the article, proving that Roy Williams was vastly superior in every way to Bill Self! Before I get any kind of hell for writing that, I'm just kidding about the last point...

BrodyR 10 years, 2 months ago

Actually I'm pretty sure Roy’s burger boys count should be 16. He was successful in landing 1991 Mc D's All-American Ben Jerome Davis (even though he transferred after a yr he was still recruited to our beloved Jayhawks by Roy).

Larry Bauerle Jr. 10 years, 2 months ago

The only reason anyone knows now about the "misses" is because news agencies now follow every move these kids make from the time they are 13 years old. There have always been players going to other schools, and now with more parity in basketball, there are more. Looking at recent results, I'd say Coach Self is doing just fine.

DCSven 10 years, 2 months ago

I appreciate the recruiting micro-nuance (the kid has an extra 4" vertical leap when he laces every other eyelet on his left shoe) from those who follow more closely than I, but seriously, two of the most highly touted, Selby and X-Henry, both bolted early and their careers would have benefited by staying and learning more from HCBS. If getting the higher rated players means we get their (or their family's) higher rated egos, I say give them the phone number to Calapari's car dealer and let Self be Self. He knows what works and more importantly how to work the talent he recruits. If some recruits can't see the value of working with HCBS has for their long-term potential that's about them, not KU. It's got to be a good fit both ways, and what we know is those who come win, graduate (if they choose), and succeed. Most importantly, their families become part of our family and that has never been more true than under the tremendous leadership HCBS has shown during many challenges over these past few years. No need for frustration here.

Bob Forer 10 years, 2 months ago

I don't think Lester Earl or Darin Hancock qualify as bona fide McDonald All-American "recruits." Earl transferred from LSU. Hancock was a juco transfer.

REHawk 10 years, 2 months ago

Quality recruits coming to 2012 Late Night. What has happened to the 7' recruit out of Florida, the foreign kid who is just learning the game? I was away from these boards for a few days. Did another school sign that lad?

jaybate 10 years, 2 months ago

Excellent question.

What kind of shoes does he wear currently? :-)

Bob Forer 10 years, 2 months ago

Starting with Larry Brown's tenure thirty years ago, KU has enjoyed being coached by some of the best, if not the best, college coaches in the business. Coach Brown didn't like to recruit, but both Williams and Self have proven themselves as top recruiters. With KU's storied tradition against the backdrop of Allen Fieldhouse--the best college arena in the nation--KU will continue to remain at the top of the college basketball heap for years to come.

What I find especially amazing is that during this 30 year period, other comparable schools such as Duke, Kentucky, and North Carolina, have suffered down seasons. Not KU. The worst year for loses was 11. Of course, that was 1988 when Danny lead us to the National Championship.

KU doesn't rebuild. They reload.

We be fine.

jaybate 10 years, 2 months ago

Something about your alias compells me to suck up to you. Is this some sort of reverse psychology?

jaybate 10 years, 2 months ago

Your are welcome. Its quite fun here during iBoot Camp week. Everyone is getting their backs up. Enjoy. :-)

Bob Forer 10 years, 2 months ago

I love boot camp. It means basketball season is upon us, which can never come too soon. There has only been one year where I didn't impatiently wait for the BB season to start, and that was the Orange Bowl season--was too busy watching in amazement the weekly exploits of Reesing and Company.

John Brown 10 years, 2 months ago

Agreed, a better measure of success may be the number of Big 12 Championships won or trips to the final four, or NCAA Championships won. We weren't supposed to be very good last yr but a trip to the championship game is a pretty good measure of team success.

jaybate 10 years, 2 months ago

jaybate News Service (ins):

Dateline: Invalid Assumption Institute at A Priori State College

Slug: Invalid, Sometimes Even A Priori Assumption Colloquium moderated by jaybate

jaybate: I want to thank the Invalid Sometimes Even A Priori Assumption Institute here at A Priori State College for asking me to moderate this colloquium. Panel members are aliases kDong and HawkKlaw. They have been invited to explain the effective use of invalid, sometimes even a priori assumptions in deductive reasoning in posts. Welcome, aliases.

kDong: You completely misunderstood every word I have ever written. I just want to make that clear at the start.

j: Thanks. That will no doubt help our audience.

HawkKlaw: And you have misunderstood everything I have ever posted here, too.

j: Well, now our audience should be fully clued in on this issue, so shall we proceed?

k: Not so fast. If you can avoid making stupid assertions and whining, I have no reason to mock you.

j: Well, I will try, but you know now you are, kDong. Whenever you disagree with someone, you say they misunderstand you, rather than accept their assertions, when they are accurate, or logically refute them when they are wrong. And...

k: But, completely misunderstand me again.

j: Be that as it may, kDong, isn't it also true that you impede discussion by pretending to be not only the judge of who decides which assertions are stupid, and without valid assumptions and sound logical I might add, most of the time, but also, self-tasked with administering the self-defined punishment of mockery. Isn't that true, kDong?

k: No, you completely misunderstand me and when you make these sorts of stupid assertions then I have to mock you for them.

j: I see. (moderator makes a few notes, shuffles papers and resumes) Then your approach to using invalid a priori assumptions in iDiscourse is to buffer and defend them with empty rhetorical devices like "you completely misunderstand me" and "If you can avoid making stupid assertions and whining, I have no reason to mock you"?

k: Exactly.

j: And so that preserves your own illusions that comfort you?

k: Yes.

j: Okay, now, I don't know about the audience, but I found that extremely informative and candid on your part.

H: You don't know anything, jaybate, and you are arrogant and say NEXT all the time. Well I can say NEXT too! NEXT!

jaybate 10 years, 2 months ago

Part 2

j: I would also like to add that as I age, I become increasingly guilty of suffering fools like you. For this I am extremely sorry to the audience and to the board members at, but as one ages, some of the gism goes out of ones work outs in the logonasium, and, well, one some times has to listen to the counsel of other wiser, better adjusted aliases on the board and zip it more often than in the old days.

H: I don't understand what you just said, but I don't like it one bit.

k: And you took too long to say it.

j: Hmmm. I'll try to get better.

k: No, you completely misunderstand what I said.

j: Okay, what did you just say?

k: I said you completely misunderstnad what I said.

j: Errm, uh, I meant before that.

k: You took too long to say it?

j: Yes. How should I have said instead?

k: You should have said, "I completely misunderstood what he said." And mean it.

j: Okay.


j: (moderator shuffles papers some more) Ah, here we go. This question is for either of you. What is the function of using undocumented assumptions, often apparently unlikely assumptions in argument?

k: You mean like you do, when you make these wild assumptions about things other than football revenues being drivers of realignment, and about "conspiracies" about recruiting?

j: No, that has to do with me. And I was asking about you. That is apparently a learned behavior of yours in argument. By this I mean you have probably learned, and been rewarded for, deflecting discussion from the Grand Canyon sized holes in your reasoning, and going on the offensive with assertions of other's stupidity and, uh, for mocking them.

k: You mean like you do?

j: There, you just did it again.

k: You completely misunderstand me.

H: Persons that sit closer to their computers are more accurate than those that sit farther from their computers. Everyone knows this. NEXT!

j: That would be an example of one of your ungrounded assumptions. Of a kind of a priori logic on your part.

H: You're so arrogant. NEXT!!!!

k: And you completely misunderstood what I said, too.

j: When?

jaybate 10 years, 2 months ago

Part 3

k: Everytime I say anything you take issue with.

j: (moderator shuffles papers) Ah here we are. You, kDong, were saying I make wild assumptions about realignment drivers and, if I recall, said a alias named bennybob was wrongly assuming conspiracies. Is that correct?

k: Its is factually accurate, but I...

j: ...completely misunderstood what you meant?

k: yes.

j: An assumption in a discourse is, unless otherwise qualified, something considered true by the assumer?

H: I don't understand what you're saying, but you have to be wrong. NEXT!

j: I try not to make assumptions that are not likely true. I try expressly to assert hypotheses, when I don't know what the truth is yet, but am searching for and formulating a possible explanation. This is quite distinct from an assumption. Do you understand this conceptual difference?

H: No. NEXT!

k: I do.

j: Then why do you argue from invalid assumptions, rather than from explicit hypotheses? Is it because that eliminates the need to think further about the facts, about how they fit with your assertions, or do not?

k: Yes.

j: Now, we are getting some where and I know the audience is very, very grateful to the panel members.

k: But what about bennybob reducing recruiting of Chris Walker to conspiracy?

j: I'm so glad you brought that up. Conspiracy refers to two or more persons cooperating secretly to commit a crime, correct?

k: I guess so.

j: Is the ShoeCo-Summer Game-Agency Complex a secret?

k: You completely misunderstand me.

j: But you didn't say anything.

k: You completely misunderstand what I don't say, too!


j: My point here is that if the Complex is not a secret, there is no reason to infer that its influence must be a conspiracy to commit a crime. Right?

k: You completely misunderstand.

j: Do I?

k: Do you what?

j: Misunderstand.

k: You just completely misunderstood how I used the word misunderstand.

j: I believe that this might be a good time for the Colloquium to take a break for coffee and doughnuts out in the lobby.

(Note: All fiction and no malice, regarding all three parts of this post. Its Boot Camp week.) :-)

KGphoto 10 years, 2 months ago

I may never stop laughing. Keep it up.

offline 10 years, 2 months ago

This comment was removed by the site staff for violation of the usage agreement.

Robin Smith 10 years, 2 months ago

True and I'm stoked about him doing so, but Self prefers multiple ball-handlers and ball-handler backups. KU essentially needs two pg-capable starting guards and two backups for subbing and insurance. So Tharpe, Adams, Frankamp and (hopefully) Selden would be perfect. It would allow for different guard combinations and many more options in offensive sets. Not to mention they can challenge each other for minutes and elevate each other's games.

jaybate 10 years, 2 months ago

"the jaybate interview with serial offline:"

jaybate: Welcome. Spell the word "a" for the board rats.

serialoffline: (silence)

jaybate: That concludes the interview with serial offline.

(Note: all fiction. No malice. Its iBoot Camp week.)

Robin Smith 10 years, 2 months ago

Jaybate, you should find someone to do my work for me so I can take the time to read all you've written :P

Robin Smith 10 years, 2 months ago

"Bill Self don't know numbers - he knows talent." nuleafjhawk


wildjayhawk 10 years, 2 months ago

Jaybate is a stupid idiot that can't write an intelligent article.

Robin Smith 10 years, 2 months ago

hmmm this reminds me of something... I sure wish I was a smart idiot and could figure out what it is...

KGphoto 10 years, 2 months ago

Haahaahaaaaa!! --insert wildjayhawk tantrum here-- complete with stomping, banging his head against the wall and unrelenting caterwaul.

And, Robin, Any stupid genius could understand it. Duh.

"stupid idiot" is PHOS. I thought when I left the 2nd grade I would never hear that again. Wrong!


HawkKlaw 10 years, 2 months ago

He certainly resorts to a lot of name-calling when you question his "shoe-company allegiance theory". Actually, I didn't even really question it. I just stated that's one of the MYRIAD of reasons why a player MIGHT choose to play somewhere other than KU. He didn't like that one bit. ;-)

jgkojak 10 years, 2 months ago

It seems to me many of the recruits we don't land go somewhere else because 1) They are guaranteed playing time - Bill Self makes you earn it 2) They are guaranteed a one and done free ride for a year - KU, unlike, say, Carolina, makes its players go to real classes 3) They think they're hot stuff and don't want anyone riding their ass to get better

I don't want players like the above.

KGphoto 10 years, 2 months ago

"Why then when Kansas misses on a recruit do the distraught voices seem louder than in the past? Easy. "

Because we have a louder voice now. More forums, more posters. Twitter alone would be reason enough. Used to be we read the paper, had our coffee and went to work to mumble our concerns around the water cooler. Now we voice it 24/7 in a world-wide echo chamber! We banter real-time with guys in Hawaii, Europe, Bankok (and now Cairo too). More voices equals more volume. And when it comes to recruiting basketball players at KU, ours goes to eleven.

Alohahawk 10 years, 2 months ago

I hear ya. Used to take months, or sometimes even years, to send a simple message by slow boat to China. Now it takes micro seconds. (Took Marco Polo's father and uncle 3 years to return to Venice, Italy, ending their initial visit to Cathay/China.) With me it takes a few minutes to type up my posts, while Jaybate types 5 posts in one minute (depending on what time of day it is, or if he has an itch he wants to let everyone hear him scratching. :>?

BC5 10 years, 2 months ago

I love our class for next year. We have two incredible players coming in and they would be the center piece of any program. We have a lot of young talent. And recruiting is far from over.

Joe Ross 10 years, 2 months ago

Forget the strikeouts???

Factor out Xavier Henry, Perry Ellis, and Connor Frankamp (because all of these are Kansas products or, in the case of Henry, a product of a Kansas alum), and what you are left with in recent years is decent recruiting at a school who has the tradition and legacy to do much better. Those kids were all easy plucks and we just lost a home-grown Kansas product not more than an hour's radius from Lawrence!

Don't get me wrong. I'm pro-Self all the way! But Im not gonna pretend solely for the sake of behaving sycophantishly that our recruiting can't be shored up. Keegs...need a rewrite.

ParisHawk 10 years, 2 months ago

You can't factor out Ellis and Frankamp because some other high ranked guys may have stayed away because we got them.

Joe Ross 10 years, 2 months ago

This is easy. The answer lies in the fact that Kansas recruiting is weak given our tradition. Nationwide we should be doing much better, and even locally we get most of the ones we should get but sometimes even that is not a given. You have insufficient information to judge my satisfaction overall with the program because I have not given it. However, to answer your question specifically, "NO". Winning records and even stellar performances are not enough to make me satisfied. Championships will do quite nicely. If we got in on some of these recruits, I am confident in Self's coaching enough to believe we would be competing for those national championships every year. Its time for you to upgrade your expectations from being winning to winning it all. It seems YOU and not I are selling yourself short.

HawkKlaw 10 years, 2 months ago

That's pretty lofty expectations, there. Calipari always has one of the best recruiting classes, yet even he has only won one Championship. Same as Coach Self.

And I don't know what KU team you've been watching, but KU does compete for the National Chapmionship every year. Just because we don't make the Final Four every year, it doesn't mean that we have a team that isn't capable. In the win or go home format of the tourney, it's not so easy to win it all. If there was a "playoff" of sorts (which I think wouldn't be nearly as exciting), teams like KU, UK, UNC and Duke would win it, almost guaranteed, every single year. But that doesn't happen because of the format of the tourney.

Think of it this way: The entire regular season is a "playoff" of sorts, to see which teams will be considered to play in the NCAA tourney. KU wins the Big 12 almost every year. That's got a lot to do with KU having the best players and team in the conference.

Joe Ross 10 years, 2 months ago need to apologize on your take. I can tolerate disagreement, and I have long respected your perspective. Am I unrealistic? My answer to that is another question. Would better recruiting help us? Here's what I know: it is NOT realistic to think we can improve--even under Self (whom I do not discredit). If you are not living up to your potential then you bite the bullet. You may not have as many areas to improve, granted. But NO coach at a top program will EVER utter the words, "I'm satisfied with where we are." I think the key to a building and sustaining a great program is to never be satisfied. As soon as you rest on your former glories youve lost. I say unapologetically, "I am NOT satisfied." Alternatively, my view is to continue to climb.

You say geography matters and I agree. But Kentucky offers nothing above Kansas in this regard. Its not east coast. It survives off of three things: 1. The reputation of its coach and how he can facilitate entrance into the NBA, 2. The tradition of the program, 3. and cheating (presumably) by Coach Cal. It, like Kansas, lacks geography. Yet KY gets em. You also compare against other top programs, UNC et al. But Duke consistently gets marquis names. Check my math, but I think UNC has done a lot better under Williams than Kansas has under Self in recruiting. My argument is not totally that we miss out on the big names (though that is part of it). But we fill out our rosters sometimes with guys that make me wonder where our recruiting is really going. I do not shy away from the fact that we should be in on more players. I appreciate your observation in your last post, about the system Self employs and its effect on recruiting. Completely masterful logic and, more to the point, it probably rings true in the real world. There have been two experiments of head-to-head matches with uber-talent vs. coached up teams, and Self and Cal have been a part of both of them in the National Championship games of 08 and 12. Kansas won once, and Kentucky won once. The Memphis-Kansas game was considerably closer, however, and I think had Memphis won that game much of the conversation would be now that Self's system, though among the best in the game, has an Achilles heel. And basically the difference comes down to talent, with talent weighing slightly heavier in the balance. Id like for you to consider a hypothetical for the sake of this argument. If future trials of this experiment play out, and Cals system triumphs over Self's, then what kinds of things would be necessary to overcome the advantage? If recruiting would not be among your first considerations, then it should be.

jaybate 10 years, 2 months ago

Well, heck, yes, jLoss1872, and maybe we can force a few Ex St Bennies onto the coaching staff and onto the walk-ons (in your hoops irrigated dreams), tooooooooooooo. :-)

C'mon, man-up, jLoss.

Talk about the shoes, Dorothy.

Talk about the agents.

Talk about the Summer Game handlers.

Talk about what Self is really up against here.

Lift the curtain on the flipping Wiz!

Don't dump shizz on Self's recruiting.

Remember, the scandals happened on CBernie's watch, not on Self's.

Pick on CBernie and Sheahon, if you want to talk about bungling first KU realignment, and then Big 12 realignment.

Don't blame Self for recruiting without a check book.

Don't blame Self for Scalpingate slowing down recruiting.

Don't blame Self for Realignmentgate I and II.

Don't blame Self for CBernie, Sheahon, and folks like you falling for the Irish Blarney (or maybe peddling it and getting stained green in the face), while trying to add them to the Big 12, rather than focusing on how to build a viable B12, and take Hoops to the next level.

Don't blame Self for CBernie running Lew Perkins for fitness equipment. I mean Priest pedophiles are still reputedly being protected and Lew gets the kiss off for exercise equipment? For a few low character types running a ticket scam he had no part in?

I reckon maybe you didn't go to KU, but you feed off the legacy, so why not sew something truthful back.

To every season turn, turn, turn...

Stand up for Self. He's winning 84% of the time...better than anyone in KU history. One ring. Twice in the Finals. A flock of draft choices. Two draft choices last season. All in only 9 years!!!

Tell everyone about how he is apparently up against the same forces that put a fork in Norm Roberts at St. Johns. Tell them how he has stood up for a ton of the "right way" guys and now the baddies maybe calling some favors in with those that can make his recruiting stumble. This possibility is not certain, but as time passes the possibility is getting harder and harder to ignore. If it can happen to Norm Roberst at St. John's, it can happen to Bill Self at KU.

No more of this I am pro Self but our recruiting needs shoring up, no more open hand and closed fist, no more disingenuousness, and no more ignoring that only a recruiter of Self's amazing skill could have produced this much talent amidst this many scandals he had nothing to do with.

No claiming not to be a sychophant of Self, while appearing to be a sychophant to others agendas.

You remind me more and more of these lines...

Caesar: The ides of March are come. Soothsayer: Aye, Caesar, but not gone.

Oh, no, they are not gone.

There will come again.

After the election.

Joe Ross 10 years, 2 months ago

Gay-bait. You are the same one who wanted Turner Gill to remain in place. The same one who had PERSONAL venom against Roy Williams. The same one who thought Doc Sadler wouldnt interview for jobs because he felt he needed to "...recharge his batteries". And the list goes. Excuse me for not taking you seriously.

ParisHawk 10 years, 2 months ago

I don't think Coach Self is satisfied with his recruiting.

Since the Championship year, he has wanted to "hit home runs in recruiting", to use his own phrase. The only "home runs", Xavier and Josh, did not work out quite as well as hoped.

Glass half full, glass half empty, ... We all want a full glass, especially Coach Self.

(By the way, could we stop with this "if only" business about last year's Final? With the same number of "ifs" the other way, we could have been blown out.)

Tony Bandle 10 years, 2 months ago

*When it comes to competing with Kentucky in recruiting, KANSAS would have to change it's name to KAN$A$ thanks!!!!

*Last time I checked, our recruiting class for 2013 was only #3...oh the horror!!!

*Damn, it looks like HCBS will average only 30 victories a year for ten years....damn that guy, can't recruit worth a S##T!!!

HawkKlaw 10 years, 2 months ago

Thanks for this article, Keegan. It needed to be written.

We get a guy like Perrry Ellis and the board rats here say Self is in a recruiting slump? I don't think so! That kid is going to be a monster at KU. I don't know where he's ranked, but I couldn't care less. He's going to be a beast.

And Frankamp + Greene next season? Seriously. How can the board rats here say Self's in a recruiting slump when he lands recruits that good? It doesn't make any sense to me.

I personally think it's a lot of opinionated, entitled KU fan boys thinking that if Self doesn't land "their guy," he's not doing his job. Here's the thing: Self wins far too often to be criticized for this subjective b.s. There are a myriad of reasons that kids choose to play at other schools. Nobody lands 100% of the recruits that they target. That's just how it goes.Getting to play for Coach Self is one of the big positives of coming to KU. I've been saying it for a while, but here it is again: When you have a coach like Bill Self, who has proven every which way that he can win big and win often, you don't worry about the guys who went to UK or UNC or decided to stay home and play for NC State. You just move on and continue to rock chalk.

And even if the recruiting slump theory were true, which it absolutely isn't, does it even matter if your coach has proven that he can take a team with no McDAAs all the way to the championship game?

So here's my bold prediction for those of you that missed it the first few dozen times: KU is going to win a lot of games this year. And next year. And the year after that. So on and so forth.

Keep your head up and rock chalk, my friends.

HawkKlaw 10 years, 2 months ago

I can always count on ralster to be the voice of reason.

mikehawk 10 years, 2 months ago

I wonder what the blogs at Butler University look and sound like around recruiting?

jaybate 10 years, 2 months ago


Now, keep bringing it.

We're a quarter of the way through iBootCamp.

You are proving you are beginning to get the concept.

Next, its not enough for you to start getting how to do it.

You have to make sure your posting mate, walk-on HawkKLaw, figures out how to string another week and a half's worth of coherence together for the first time in his career.

This is iBootCamp. Everyone gets it or no one does.

Today was empty headed assumptions and quasi religious, self deluding a prioris that are apriori to no one but you two.

Tomorrow we are going to start working on logical connections operating from assumptions.

In deduction, there are principles and logics, private kDong, principles and logics!

After deduction, we'll delve into induction briefly.

Then move on to game theory.

By gawd, Private kDong, we are going to straighten that pot of Maypo you call a brain in your skull into something ready for post October 15th posting.

But, I am warning you Private kDong, this man's posting corp is holding you personally responsible for Ex PFC HawkKlaw. God did not equip every maggot in this man's Cloud for posting, Private kDong. And yet the user agreement requires that any maggot that can pick up a keyboard and negotiate his way through the registration process necessarily has a right to embarrass himself here.

And do you know what that means, Private noDong? That means that your beloved Sergeant jaybate and this entire regiment of posting Marines is holding you by the short hairs and the small dangling orbs that guaranty you some small chance of reproductive eternity, and this regiment is saying, "Get that empty headed tomato slug of an Ex PFC HawkKlaw shaped up and posting like an iMarine, or none of this regiment is going to escape iBootCamp for the rest of eternity, Private kDong!

Yeeeeeee Hawwwwwww, its iBoot Camp week and god help me, I do love it so!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

HawkKlaw 10 years, 2 months ago

This is not the military. This is not combat. I'm a KU fan. This is a message board for KU fans. I don't know about you, but that's why I'm here.

Here's the thing: I've never had an issue with you jaybate. I actually agree with a lot of the stuff you say when I take the time to read it. And I always had a small amount of respect for the thought you put into your posts. But when you resorted to the elementary tactic of calling me a "pussy", as opposed to actually supporting your argument or refuting mine, I realized that you're just another opinionated KU fan boy that likes to hear the sound of his gums flapping. You have no real insight. You're just throwing out wild opinions and expecting people to agree because you're the jaybate. If they don't fall in line, you immediately resort to name-calling. Just look above. konkeyDong was respectful and did a nice job of refuting your idiotic notions. You got mad and called him "noDong." It's pathetic, really. You have no posting marines. You have no evidence to base your claims on. It's just you sitting at a computer trying to sound like you're awesome. Way to go.

Ben Simonett 10 years, 2 months ago

'j) benny reacted with shock that I wasn't rude to him" k) I commented that I only mock stupid assertions and whining

is that an indirect confession that my post that got a reply lacking an insult wasn't a stupid assertion with whining?

awwwww, i like you too Konkey! :)

AsadZ 10 years, 2 months ago

Konk, Its only Boot Camp but boy you are in mid season form

kellerman411 10 years, 2 months ago

KonkeyDong will be referred to as Dong. Why, because its easier to say and I think its funny.

Ben Simonett 10 years, 2 months ago

Read the title, saw the author and immediately expected complete BS....wasn't surprised.

Theres an old saying "stats don't lie but liars use stats"

Mcd AAs/year isn't nearly as telling of recruiting success as overall class rankings.

By Keegans metric, all Self would have to do is land a one man recruiting class every season from here on out. As long as that one kid was an MCD AA we would have to consider him "recruiting at his historical level"

pure garabge.

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