What Miami's firing of Randy Shannon could mean for Kansas


So the Miami Hurricanes go 7-5 during 2010 but fire head coach Randy Shannon and are now rumored to be considering former NFL coach Jon Gruden as Shannon’s replacement.

Big deal, right?

It could be. Hear me out.

Though the specifics of such moves might not have any direct ties to Kansas University, the fallout from all of it could. Here’s why. Remember KU assistant coach Robert Wimberly? Sure you do. He came to KU with Turner Gill, he’s in charge of the safeties and he’s from the Miami area. Because of Wimberly’s ties to South Florida, KU has been in on and gotten a couple of players from that area already. Could more be on the way?

It’s definitely possible. Any time a coach is fired, the question about what will happen to the guys who have committed to play for him always pops up. I’d expect it will again here and I’d expect that Miami’s commitments will be highly desired by programs across the country.

Coming to Kansas might not be the first thing on the minds of these players, but, given time, Wimberly and Gill could change that.

Here’s a look at Miami’s current list from the Class of 2011. The ‘Canes only have seven oral commitments so far, which could have been part of Shannon’s problem.

Having said that, KU might not have a need for all of them, but you can bet the coaches are at least taking a look, especially now that the season is over and all they have on their plates is recruiting.

• Teddy Bridgewater, QB, Miami, 6-3, 185, 4 stars
• Anthony Chickillo, DE, Tampa, 6-3, 226, 4 stars (Had an offer from KU)
• Jeremy Davis, DB, New Berlin, NY, 6-4, 189, 3 stars
• Phillip Dorsett, WR, Fort Lauderdale, 5-10, 170, 4 stars
• Marcus Jackson, OL, Vero Beach, Fla., 6-2, 315, 3 stars
• Albert Louis-Jean, DB, Brockton, Mass., 6-1, 172, 4 stars
• Nick Menocal, LB, Miami, 6-3, 235, 3 stars

Stay tuned.


Dickless Head 12 years ago

But our head coach sucks. Any talent they possess will be offset by their lack of in-game coaching...a.k.a. Ron Prince.

Hard to get excited about KU football as long as the above continues.

Dale Kroening 12 years ago

Mangina was real good his first year too huh ? Give the man a chance, Gill will get things turned around.

jayhawk1996 12 years ago

It's hard to convince those who were against Gill from the minute he was hired. Rome wasn't built in a day, and neither are college football programs.

kufanman88 12 years ago

Same was said about Terry Allen. We know how that worked out. At least Mangino recruited decently from the onset. Gill has yet to hit his stride, despite having highly emphasized his recruiting prowess. He is also a victim of his own hype. He was paid far too much for a first time BCS conference coach with little to no record of success. I will look you up next year when Gill is fired for his inability to motivate his team and his inability to recruit top notch players. Being a good guy only gets you so far, eventually you have to win.

Andy Hess 12 years ago

really? in his first year, Gill has already made Mangino look like a chump when it comes to recruiting. your bias is showing.

kckmedic 12 years ago

Notable names from Mangino's first (2002) recruiting class: Jon Cornish Travis Dambach Derek Fine Charles Gordon Kevin Kane Jerome Kemp Cory Kipp Jonathan Lamb David Ochoa Brandon Perkins Nick Reid Dominic Roux Mark Simmons Bob Whitaker Bill Whittemore

He was hired in December of 2001 so his first class was keeping Terry Allen's recruits. The 2002 class was his first. I deleted quite a few 3 star recruits that didn't really do much when they got here. Gill may recruit well but you're showing YOUR bias against Mangino to say that he didn't recruit as soon as he got here. Plus, we need to see how Gill's recruits pan out. You can recruit all 5 stars and if they all bust it was a bad class. Mangino was notorious for recruiting 2-3 stars and turning them into studs. The following are 2 star guys under Mangino who played or still play in the NFL:

Anthony Collins Dexton Fields Charlton Keith Aqib Talib James Holt

Larry Smith 12 years ago

Those players named above were all on the 2002 roster. Mangino was hired in December 2001, so it may be safe to say that Gameball had recruited some of those players. I don't know of any sites that go that far back that would tell when a recruit committed. It would be nearly impossible to know which ones were holdovers from Allen,and which ones Mangino brought in. So the assertion that all the kids on the above list were Mangino recruits is faulty.

William James 12 years ago

Looks like basketball boy just got punked. Show me the recruits that begin to compare to all the studs Mangino brought to Kansas. Mangino had much less to work with with in terms of program prestige as well as facilities.

milehighhawk 12 years ago

Your act is getting tired, dude. Give it a rest.

Christopher Johnson 12 years ago

This comment was removed by the site staff for violation of the usage agreement.

waywardJay 12 years ago

Wow.... that's balls calling someone an affirmative action hire..... I am surprised the editors allowed this one through..... You can go back to just being a tiger fan.

William James 12 years ago

Do you think Turner Gill was the most qualified man that Lew Perkins could of hired? If not, then why did Lew hire him? There was some reason. I don't know why, though I have my own theory. But the theory that his skin color didn't hurt him does seem sound in todays culture.

Sam Brockert 12 years ago

Idiots like you say that ANYTIME a black head coach is hired. It has nothing to do with it. It would take a black coach with an undefeated record in order for you to say that it was the right hire and not affirmative action...

orbiter 12 years ago

at least you aren't shy about being a racist.

esj2003 12 years ago

Congrats on knowing the facts, h&tfan. That is, minus the fact that Lew Perkins once met Turner Gill at a golf event and said "He's an impressive man," and had him on his radar for years.

Kevin Studer 12 years ago

People don't dislike Gill's regime because of the record; it is HOW they lost games: inability to get plays called in a timely fashion, lack of definsive positioning, inability to settle on a line-up, mental mistakes, poor technique in 3 phases of the game...these aren't indicative of growing pains. They are indicative of poor coaching. Period.

Jayhawk1116 12 years ago

Symptoms of a new "regime". All correctable over time...

DevilHawk 12 years ago

  • New coaches / new system/language
  • Players playing different positions because of injuries as well as their teammates getting themselves kicked off the team or to fill a gap for some other reason
  • Youth

Besides, it's not like we gave up nearly 30 or more points per game in 2008 and 2009. Oh wait: yes we did.

Coaching certainly is an element of it, but we can't be sure how much of the problem is coaching and how much of it is all of the other various elements.

DevilHawk 12 years ago

Given all the variables involved in his first year, you can't prove that to be true. In fact, it has been quite clear that Sims and Opurum are very talented and helped the team significantly while on the field this season.

People perform for people they respect. The coaching errors that did occur this year are correctable - recruiting is not. The errors will be shored up - and several of them would have been the correct call with a more talented team.

In the meantime, the next two seasons depend significantly on what happens between now and signing day and spring practice.

2Bnamedlater 12 years ago

If any of those come to KU this next year, that would be great, because once you get a pipeline opened up, good things come from it.

Lets just hope the recruiting prowless kicks in.

d_prowess 12 years ago

Look at this... football season is over but Tait is still bringing us the goods!! Nice...

Phoggin_Loud 12 years ago

Nice job, Tait!!

Why don't we just go "basketball" and hire Randy Shannon to some Recruiting role and bring all of his kids with him??

You know, Manning, Chalmers, et. al.

Sounds like a plan to me.

ahpersecoachingexperience 12 years ago

wow that is a strrrrrrrrrrrrrrrretch! My reading retention is not very good but are you suggesting players are going to drop their comments to Miami and coach g to play for 3-9 gill?!?!?!? Tait are you feeling alright?

Jayhawk1116 12 years ago

I'm not sure which will come first, the end of the world, or a positive post about KU football from you. I hope I'm around long enough to find out...

Dirk Medema 12 years ago

I do recall reading 1 where perse was fairly objective.

My guess is he was also one of the people predicting the defection of the existing recruits when the on-the-field results got most bleak. That was right before 1 of KU's best recruiting weeks - landing Miller & Heney. But really, who in their right mind would think of playing for a coach with a bad record in his first year establishing a new program?

waywardJay 12 years ago

BY that Logic, The chiefs should have fired Haley during their bye week..... Perse/azalum/ mulaza ( i'm sure there are other aliases..... ) did comment shocked that we hung 35 on Colorado, but immediately said it's colorado ...

William James 12 years ago

Its not 3-9 Gill, its 23-39 Gill. Get it right.

kureader 12 years ago

You're on your toes, Tait! Nice piece ... something to think about.

jayhawkjed 12 years ago

Sounds to me if Miami wants to keep their recruits they should hire Turner Gill. I am all for that!

Ben Kliewer 12 years ago

jayhawk1996 is right. Those people who've decided they hate Gill no matter what aren't going to be convinced by any rational argument to not hate him. They will always hate him, even if he were to build a successful program at KU. Let's say 3 years from now, Gill and KU are in the running for a BCS bowl. The haters will still continue to hate on Gill, finding this or that reason to complain about. Then there are those of us who are rational and realistic. I've gone from one side of the fence to the other and back again, based purely on the facts presented to me, not speculation of what might happen citing obscure statistics from the past. I went on a game by game basis this season, and at the end of the year, I have a better feeling about the program than I did after NDSU. Call me crazy, and you probably will...

ahpersecoachingexperience 12 years ago

You did see the osu and mu game? Right? And you walked away feeling good?

hawk316 12 years ago

Kleave, you're not crazy at all. I was even more encouraged about KU's future football success after listening to Hawk Talk yesterday. David Lawrence, who got a very close, firsthand look at our miserable season, was actually quite positive about the future.

In addition, a few weeks ago I caught a little bit of a sports talk show out of KC. The announcer (Wright?) was very adamant in saying that anyone who is calling for Gill to be fired during his first season is a "fool." Hmmm, interesting...

Levi Chronister 12 years ago

You do realize that David Lawrence (nothing against him personally) gets paid to be positive about the team's future, right?

David Robinett 12 years ago

Look outside! There are no leaves. That means there will NEVER be any leaves in Lawrence! We gotta get better grounds keepers in here.

Gill Haters are just brilliant, aren't they?

William James 12 years ago

Hahahaha! You have a better feeling than after Kansas, a Big 12 school, lost on their home field to North Dakota State. That is saying a lot.

SelbyInc 12 years ago

as a former college player im obviously frustrated with how the season was, having said that: new coaches need some time to adapt to players..vice versa... its like coming back from an ACL injury...the first year is usually pretty shaky but as the knee gets stronger (coaches to players relationship) the team will build confidence and go from there! but thank god its basketball season! Go hawks

Jason Bailey 12 years ago

The only reason someone would leave a program (and climate/city) like Miami would be due to the fact that they're staring a career at #2 or #3 on the depth chart in the face to go to a program where they have a good potential to be #1 on the depth chart (like KU).

Personally, I don't see gaining another #2 or #3 from a contending program as a big plus for KU. Might be a positive but I thought Gill was all about his prowess in recruiting. For that, let's look at how his former team fared this past season with the stellar recruiting that he put in place during his tenure: Buffalo 2010 season = 2 and 10, 1 and 7 in MAC. Wow, that doesn't add up to what we've been sold by Lew.

honk_for_hawks 12 years ago

you're absolutely right. gill left top notch recruits at what is considered by many to be the WORST football program in the country. the fact is, in gill's 4 years in buffalo he had more wins than the DECADE before he got there. You know how hard it is to get kids to play in buffalo? its hard enough getting players to play for the bills and they are getting paid millions and can at least live in nice houses. These kids live in crappy dorms in upstate new york where it is unbelievably cold for most of the year. The fact that he had 2 5-7 seasons and one 8-5 season at a school like that is impressive. But everyone above is right. There is no way to convince those of you who have had your minds made up since he was hired that things are going to be good. All I have to say is I am friends with a lot of players on the football team and the consensus among the players is that Gill is a lot better than mangino. And lets not forget all the injuries we had this year. off the top of my head I can't remember all of them but i believe we at least two starting linemen go down for the season as well as one or two that played most of the season in intense pain. My friend Isiah Barfield played the entire season with a shoulder injury that he just had surgery for on Monday. All three of our quarterbacks went down at some point and when you consider we had new players at no less than 10 positions that I can think of, I would say that Gill didn't really have a lot of help when it came to breaks. So while none of you will probably listen, I just ask that you at least realize just how little there was to work with this season when you're criticizing our coach. Mangino was in his 7th season when we went to the Orange Bowl. Take away that season and in his remaing 7 seasons, he finished higher than 4th in the north once (3rd in 2008-09). just saying....

William James 12 years ago

Its Division 1 football. I don't know how to break this to everyone that think Gills 23-39 record is a victim of bad circumstances, but injuries will always happen. The good coaches find a way through it. A big reason I think Mangino was fired was because he wasnt able to make good adjustments when Todd Reesing was injured in 2009. You are wrong, if Gill wants to convince people like me that I am wrong about him, there is one thing he needs to start doing. Winning. Thats it. Start winning football games and I will see that I am wrong. Do you think Mangino got a lot of breaks? How many quarterbacks did Mangino go through due to injuries? A lot. Injuries will always happen at this level.
Oh, and why in the world would I take away Manginos 7th season. It happened and Mangino deserves recognition for it. If Gill has a season like that, I promise I will come on here and admit I was completely wrong about Turner Gill.

honk_for_hawks 12 years ago

I'm not saying he doesn't deserve recognition for his 7th season. The point was that it is incredibly hard to get to that level at a school like KU and when you do get there, it is incredibly hard to stay at that level. The point was that everyone thinks we're this college football blueblood now that we won one orange bowl when in all reality, we are still KU, the team that for most of the BigXII's existence has been circled as a gimme win for the OUs and UTs and Nebraskas of the conference. We had one great season and everyone thinks we should be getting 5 star recruits and starting every season in the top 10. We're still KU and as much as it sucks, you need to look at any coach's success (mangino, gill, whoever) with that in mind.

John Beck 12 years ago

Chickillo would be a good "get" for KU at DE.

ebizzle 12 years ago

Wow! every school in the country offered this kid.

LAJayhawk 12 years ago

Did he really make NO visits to ANY school? Or has that section just defaulted to no because he verbally committed? If he really didn't make any visits, and he's from Florida, then we have zero chance at him. Clearly he wanted only to go to Miami if that's the case, and I don't think the change in coach is going to alter that.

Michael Maris 12 years ago

To all of the T. Gill Haters, go find your hole and don't come out until Groundhog Day. Then, you can be cheering for the KU Men's Basketball Team. By the way, Gene Chizik didn't do much at Iowa State, but look at what he has done now @ Auburn. Love him or hate him, I'm betting that Mr. T. Gill will do just fine. Land a top notch recruit (that K-State seemed to be recruiting as well), and you might just possibly be playing for a National Championship. Would you say that Gene Chizik is a great X's and O's coach? Sure looks good now (with his cast away coaching staff Gus Malzahn, etc......)

LAJayhawk 12 years ago

And a very strong possibility of having every one of those victories erased with a Cam Newton ineligible ruling.....

kudzutexas 12 years ago

It makes me wonder if the vocal haters are KU fans or Missouri fans trying to get on my nerves.

LAJayhawk 12 years ago

The haters annoy me too, but I think their hearts are in the right place. They want the program to succeed, and, right or wrong, they don't feel like it will with Gill. They worry that what they consider to be a bad hire will put the program back years, and it will be even more difficult to dig it back out again.

I don't agree with that, but I'm also not sold on Gill yet. I am, however, willing to wait and see what he can bring in and coach with.

That being said, the haters point has been made over and over and over and over and... Talk about beating a dead horse. We seriously get it already. You don't like him. Let's move on.

hailtoku 12 years ago

Unless you're talking about Randy Shannon becoming our head coach, I don't want to hear it.

If Gill were the head coach of Auburn this year they would be 7-4.

HawkInAL 12 years ago

If Gene Chizik didn't have Gus Malzahn, he'd be 7-4.

If KU was in the ACC, we'd have finished 6-6 this year.

If Bo Jackson wouldn't have played for the Raiders, the Royals would still be good.

If we would have hit the front end of our 1 and 1's, the 2003 national championship game would have been in the bag.

If "ifs" and "buts" were candy and nuts, it would be Christmas all year long.

See you at Bobby Dodd Stadium on September 17. Go Hawks!!!!

hailtoku 12 years ago

Your "ifs" are a little different than mine...

I'm pointing out that Gill could have all the 5 stars in the world he still can't coach (Calipari).

Essentially, we have a quarterbacks coaching as our head coach.

hailtoku 12 years ago

....flat out, there are too many D1 schools in the Florida area to drag a teenager out of South Beach and into Lawrence, Kansas.

Matt Tait 12 years ago


Just thought this was something that people should remember, given Wimberly's ties to the Miami area. Maybe KU doesn't pluck any of the current Miami commitments but maybe Shannon's canning helps KU with some other Florida guys who are not committed.

Ya never know.

mikehawk 12 years ago

It increasingly seems there is a strong possibility that the real issue related to the negative comments of some blog commentators regarding Turner Gill are based on latent racism. If so, those particular bloggers need it to either cease and desist, or go forward and say what you really want to say rather than hide behind outright rejections of him as a coach rather than provide him fair opportunity to recruit and build a successful program all KU fans can be proud. I bring this topic up with the risk of having the post removed because of the discomfort of talking about the continued presence of racism and racist attitudes in our country. Whether the comments are based on racism, or from someone who doesn't really know much about recruiting, coaching, building a program, and the time it takes to do so, in the end, it doesn't matter because both are based on ignorance.

honk_for_hawks 12 years ago

Sadly I know there is an element of race behind quite a few of Gill's haters. I know a few people that I go to school with who will flat out say they don't like him because he's black. Some others just liked Mangino's style. But regardless of which it is, these people haven't even given Gill a chance and that is a sad thing. Even if we end up firing him 4 or 5 years from now because he hasn't gotten the job done, at the end of the day this is college athletics and these are 18-22 year old KIDS. We don't need someone like Mangino spouting racist, offensive stuff down their throats and putting football before everything else. Gill is at the very least helping them grow as men with his running of the program. I would rather be the school associated with great human beings who play sports than great athletes who drive drunk, get in fights, and act irresponsibly. As long as he is making his players responsible individuals, he should at least be allowed a few seasons before he is called a failure.

Jack Wilson 12 years ago

Give me an example of racist stuff Mangino said or did .. curious.

waywardJay 12 years ago

he Reportedly ( read allegedly ) said to one of our players on our current team... Keep that stuff up and you will be back in St. Louis, does that sound like fun getting shot with your homies.....

honk_for_hawks 12 years ago

WaywardJay got one of the examples that i've heard and according to some people I know in the athletics department, that wasn't even the worst of it. Obviously I'm taking them at their word since they all take those confidentiality agreements so seriously and can't really tell me the juicy details. But from what I've seen from him throughout the years, I wouldn't exactly be surprised.

hailtoku 12 years ago

Yeah, it could be race.

Or, it could be that we lost to a Division II school 6-3, got beaten by KSU 59-7, Baylor 52-7 and finished the season with 3 wins.

But, race seems to the overriding cause I suppose (rolling my eyes).

honk_for_hawks 12 years ago

I never said race was the overriding cause. I just said that I personally know a lot of people who make derogatory comments about his race on a regular basis. I think a lot of people have valid reasons for being skeptical of Gill, but to think that there isn't an element of race among a section of Gill's detractors is downright nieve. The fact is, even 50+ years after the civil rights movement, there are a lot of people who don't trust "them" in positions of authority. Are a lot of these same people friends with black people? Yes. Absolutely. I think its the more subtle, subconscious racism that is at play here. I agree that the blowouts were embarrassing and so was the opener, but between the injuries and lack of experienced talent, Mangino couldn't have done any better. He MIGHT have gotten one more win (against NDSU) simply because of the fact that these were his players and they knew each other better, but he wouldn't have finished better than 4-8 himself. I agree with what an earlier poster said; that a lot of you negative posters have the best intentions and just want to see your school succeed, but there also a large amount of you who didn't like Gill from the beginning and have never given him a chance whatsoever. At this point I'm rambling so I'll stop, but just remember that we're all Jayhawks and want the same things in the end so if we didn't think Gill was going to improve and do good things for our program, we wouldn't be supporting him either.

hailtoku 12 years ago

Let's not pretend that those people are a large percentage of the Jayhawk fan base.

There are always a couple of morons out there. But that has nothing to do with the Gill hate overall.

Kevin Studer 12 years ago

People (at least, no one I know) don't have a problem with Gill's race. They have a problem with the embarrassing season we just had. We didn't just lose 9 games...we looked like a D2 school all season.

William James 12 years ago

So what if I told you that Bradley McDougal was out driving drunk and running over a street sign in my yard at 2 in the morning?

honk_for_hawks 12 years ago

I'd ask why you didn't try to stop him if you were close enough to the car to tell it was him at 2 in the morning.

Jayhawk1116 12 years ago

I don't think race has anything to do with it at all. How many people hate Danny Manning, Mario Chalmers, Wilt the Stilt, Charles Gordon, Aquib Talib, Daryl Stuckey, James McClinton, etc.??? Playing the race card is easy. Way too easy.

honk_for_hawks 12 years ago

The race factor isn't just that he is black. It's that he is in a position of authority. Today's society isn't blatantly racist the way it was 50 years ago, but there are still people who feel "more comfortable" with a white person running things. That's not to say you are racist or all of the negative posters are racist, but it is out there and whether you want to admit it or not, it does affect college football quite a bit. Obviously there are less college football coaching jobs than college basketball, but if I remember the most recent number (I could be off), there were only 5 or 6 african-american head coaches out of the 120 division I schools. The schools in the South legitimately worry every time they interview an AA candidate simply because of these feelings. When Gill had his 8-5 season, he was considered by many to be one of the top candidates for the position at Auburn, but reportedly, boosters shot it down because of not only his race, but because of the fact that he happened to have a white wife. As much as I wish this would completely go away so that people could be judged by their character as opposed to their color, as long as those feelings exist, the race card will be played because the race card is still very much valid, especially in college football.

hailtoku 12 years ago

I never understand why people are so concerned with keeping the number of black coaches up.

If the guys qualified he's qualified.

African Americans make up 13% of the U.S population. So 5% of the coaches in D1 football are black. What do you want? 13%...? Should 13% of every workplace be black?

waywardJay 12 years ago

HOw quick they dance to claim they are not racist.... It's funny MIke... I said the same thing at midseason..... It's intersting how quickly people patted mangino on the back for his 2-10 (0-8) first season... and How so many "kansas fans" want to run Turner out of town after a 3-9 (1-7 ) season....

People mention Mangino's recruiting classes, and recent success... I say Hogwash. We saw the results on the field. That was a 3-9 team if Mangino was coaching them also.

SO what other reason is there to be so Anti- gill.... Too Nice ? Too Disciplined ? Too reliant on his Coordinators? give me a break. Kudos for having the stones to call some of our fans out for their veiled racism. especially, when someone makes a remark about "an Affirmative action hire" in the same Comment thread.

Sam Constance 12 years ago

Well, when you casually dismiss the primary reason as invalid, then yes I would agree that the "other" reasons to dislike Gill are lacking.

However, I think it's absurd to determine that the 3-9 season we just had bears no reflection on the coach who led them to said season. I'm all for giving new coaches a grace period, but at the end of the day, they are still coaching the team. There's no rule that says a first-year coach has to be embarrassingly bad in his first year.

That's just rationalization...

hailtoku 12 years ago

wayward I've always thought you're posts were missing, for lack of a better word, intelligence.

2-10 was on par with our program when Mangino came. Gill came in after KU averaged more than 8 wins a season in 3 years.

What reasons are there to be anti-Gill? Do you really want me to list them (not going to be a dead horse with a stick).

What I think, right now, is that you throw the race card out to silence the critics because God forbid we be displeased with a coach who happens to be black.

Any coach who makes his debut with a 6-3 loss to North Dakota State University is going to get some "Who the hell is this guy?" lashing from the fans.

Sam Constance 12 years ago

What an asinine accusation to make. While I'm sure there are a few isolated individuals who use coaching criticism as a way to hide their contempt for seeing an African American in a position of power, the idea that Gill's critics are just "latent racists" is completely indefensible.

For starters, Gill's critics are justified. Outside of a couple games (or a few quarters within a couple games), the Jayhawks have consistently looked disorganized, unprepared and disinterested. Finishing 3-9 isn't such a big deal, as everyone expected KU to have a difficult year, but looking completely uncompetitive in doing so is a big deal. And it's certainly a good enough reason to at least wonder (in this early stage) if Gill isn't in over his head.

Now, I am personally skeptical of Gill's ability to turn this around, but I'm not demanding he be fired. I'm of the opinion that you at least need to give him a chance to do a full recruiting cycle before you can toss him, otherwise you're judging on an incomplete picture.

But make no mistake, I understand where the rationale that he needs to be fired is coming from. As LAJayhawk alludes, for a program that has never been terribly competitive (like KU), a bad hire can set us back more than a school with some longevity and cache. Just look at Nebraska--terrible hire in Callahan, but it didn't take long for the new hire to make them competitive again because it's Nebraska, a name that recruits for itself. So there is some degree of urgency to fix the mistake (if it is a mistake) before it really stops our progress.

And while I will give the Gill supporters the fact that we are still looking at an unfinished picture, it should be noted that of the parts we can see, most (not all) of it isn't positive. It's never good when your school is on the wrong end of several marks of infamy. Losing to a FCS school at home. Getting blasted by nearly every team in the conference and only looking competitive for small lengths of time. Does anyone need a reminder that KU allowed 90 unanswered points from the 2nd Quarter of the Baylor game to the 4th Quarter of the KSU game? NINETY! Couple those unpleasant details with the fact that Gill has never coached at a BCS school and only showed moderate success when at Buffalo, and there is plenty of valid reason to wonder if Gill can become the coach we need.

So to everyone who just dismisses criticism of Gill as "hating" or feels the need to blast critics by claiming they are just latent racists, please remember that blindly following and dousing out all forms of criticism is essentially no better than blindly criticizing. Both are unreasonable points of view.

hailtoku 12 years ago

Don't bother... I've made this argument to wayward before.

I agree with you. The criticism wasn't THAT we were losing but HOW we were losing. Any intelligent football fan could see poor coaching.

Jack Wilson 12 years ago

"KU might not have the need for all of them" .. really? I'll take all of them now.

mikehawk: Seriously. Racism. That is the crybaby call of all who fail, who happen to be black, or are apologists. See, some of us don't have a built in excuse for every failure. Some of us didn't get scholarship money because of our race. What is surprising to idiots like you is that Mr. Gill is actually being judged on the merits. That is surprising to liberals because, deep down, you can't believe that is possible. What you liberals latch onto is that there is a fringe that will hate Gill because he is black. Always will be. But there is a fringe that will hate me because I am white. Always will be. But again, it is idiots like you that perpetuate the victim mentality, create excuse by patronizing blacks, and enable what is clearly a widespread failure of blacks in general to succeed in our society. If you instead would adopt my view that each and every individual, black, white, whatever, has value, can succeed, and is not handicapped by his or her race, you might be surprised at how your outlook might change. If blacks were actually held to the same standard whites are held to, you might be surprised how their standard will rise. It makes you feel good about yourself to pity blacks, to nod your head approvingly at cries of racism. It's the easy way out. And it is pathetic. You unwittingly (or purposefully) perpetuate what you claim to despise. It is interesting that in every commercial or ad that portrays a crime, the criminal is always white. Wonder why that is?

Try this .. Coach Gill's performance this season was embarrassing. Not his race, not his anything else other than his performance. There were painful examples of not being prepared, being outcoached, and failing to adjust. The performance this year as head coach is what is being criticized. One can rationally extrapolate that with better talent, there will still be these failures. We have a coach that is out of his league and is learning on the job. That cannot be denied. Might he improve, sure. But as a KU fan, I don't want our team used for on the job training.

khummel60 12 years ago

I cringe every time I see someone mention racism as mikehawk did, not because I necessarily disagree with the assertion, but because I know an angry posting like yours is sure to follow.

Mikehawk did not say that every person who dislikes Gill is a racist, but that appears to be what you heard. He did not say that Gill deserves special treatment because of his race, but that's evidently what you heard. He said nothing about his political persuasion, but you immediately assumed he must be a "liberal". He said nothing about his race but you assumed he must be either black or an apologist for people of color.

In short, you instantly polarized the discussion and used it to launch into a rant about affirmative action. Do you not agree that racism still exists, even among Jayhawk fans? Don't you think it is at least possible that some of those people post on this very board? Fact is some posters on this board routinely make accusations (some thinly veiled, some not) that Gill was hired primarily because of his skin color. I think most people on this board find those accusations to be disturbing and incendiary.

I do not believe every person who dislikes Gill is a racist, but I do believe a small number of people (whether consciously or subconsciously) dislike Gill (at least in part) because of his race. Do you not agree?

Brak 12 years ago

I don't think HEM will be coming back from that one, very nice response.

Sam Constance 12 years ago

"Mikehawk did not say that every person who dislikes Gill is a racist, but that appears to be what you heard."

No, he didn't say that exactly. He said that "some" critics of Gill, being a black coach in a country in which racial tensions still exist, are probably using his coaching failures as an excuse for their racism.

However, the problem with making a statement like that is the implication involved. Saying that racial tension still exists in the U.S. is like saying the sky is blue. So when you use such an obvious--almost common knowledge--fact to support a point, people are going to wonder "what's the point?". What does this person mean that they aren't saying explicitly?

In this case, those of us who have been critical of Gill for completely justified, non-race reasons are going to have a hard time reading Mikehawk's comment about "some" Gill critics and not generalize it to be "Gill critics".

After all, no one cares about a point--one way or the other--about the fringe, latent racists. They are the fringe and deserve no attention. So when a comment is made about the nebulous "some of his critics", people are going to naturally wonder if the commenter thinks that they are one of those "some" or if the author is just using the word "some" so that all bases are covered and he is not caught generalizing an entire group. And the idea that we might be getting lumped in with latent racists for any reason is offensive.

khummel60 12 years ago

Very good explanation. Your absolutely right. I still think HEM went a little too far, but I understand your point entirely. I really wish this entire topic was never raised, and I regret that I ever participated in the discussion.

waywardJay 12 years ago


I would also like to suggest some of the most liberal people I know are also very racist. It's not a Liberal or Conservaative thing... it's you are or you aren't thing....

Dyrk Dugan 12 years ago

Gruden isn't going to Miami for one thing....and there's plenty of other fish in the sea, so to speak, for a Florida kid to go, besides Miami...and he doesn't have to come up to Lawrence KS either, because of a position coach.

i tell you what, i've about had it with all the Gill bashing. i mean, it's ridiculous. let him get his kids in here......seriously, we are NOT AN ELITE FOOTBALL PROGRAM!!!!!

why does everyone think we are? we're not.....but we're not the dregs of football society either. if you think we're a program that can BCS bowl it every few years, and regularly have 10 win season, you're nuts. i mean completely. we'll never get the kind of talent we need for that, year after year.

look at our most recent coach before Gill. MM got it going, but it took him four years, before he had a DECENT football team....and he had only ONE great one....i remember all the bashers on here during his tenure.......calling for him to be fired in year five after going 6-6..and all the rest. and look how quickly he lost it. we lost seven straight last year...he hadn't gone thru that since 2002. so it's VERY hard to sustain.

there should be no more bashing this coach. Let him recruit. let him build the program. i watched them play live several times this year...they had a lot of deficiencies in talent and speed out there....and i mean a lot. he must be given the opportunity to coach it his way....and have multiple years to do it. otherwise, you'll never be able to get a coach in here.

Theutus 12 years ago

To be fair, you can't really coach a football team when your AD is out to cut your throat, and the fans are all out for your job because you yelled at some players and made a few skin some knuckles....

I didn't really care all that much for Mangino, but holding him accountable for that last season isn't fair at all.

KCHawk81 12 years ago

Yes. What you want is the much more stable situation of being hired by an AD who is involved in a national scandal and then announces his "retirement" before the season begins, and the fans are all out for your job before the season begins because they "didn't like the hire," and then having a tough, injury-ridden year with a former coach's mediocre talent and the local media editorializing your personal conduct policies (which is not to say that I agree with all of them). THAT is the sort of season to hold someone accountable for.

waywardJay 12 years ago

That has to be one of the most ridiculous posts I have ever heard. You cannot expect a coach to coach through that... It's absolutely fair. It was HIS players. It was HIS offense. It was HIS defense. He didn't allow his Coordinators to do their thing ( Why Bill Young left ) and he refused to talk to the Media.

Look it. You can defend him. He had some postives as a coach, and some of his players would have been willing to follow him into Hell.... BUt not a majority, Not even 10 percent I would tell you.... That's not a good track record. The reason fans wanted his job was because he followed a 12-1 season up with a 5-7 season and a 6-6 season he gave away to Missouri, knowing he would be fired anyway. His AD wanted to fire him to get someone else's face in the paper when he was getting thrown under the bus. The Players ( most not all ) wanted him out because he was not the coach he was when he recruited people. He was quick to pull them and never gave them chances to succeed if they failed. Oh yeah< and he punched around a few of his players, but hey that worked so well for Bob Knight.

All of these things you can Blame on Mangino.... even being Lew's scapegoat, because there is NO WAY a Coach with those kids should have los 7 straight last year..... and yet they did.

Theutus 12 years ago

If you aren't going to take any of that into consideration, then how can you consider half of this crutch crap for Gill?

There is NO WAY a Coach with the talent level KU has should lose to KSU by that amount, or lose to a D2 school... But they did.

Funny how it's a two way street eh?

David Wanamaker 12 years ago

Any chance the repercussions could somehow include the firing of KU's strength and conditioning coach for football? Families of players have suggested that their sons had more rigorous training programs in high school.

esque 12 years ago

@HighEliteMajor Among many of the jacked up things Mangino has spouted off about, his rant to Raymond Brown about being sent back home to get shot with some of his homeboys was said to have been laced with several "n----rs" for good measure. This coming from someone on the staff who witnessed it.

While I don't want to speak for mikehawk or honk_for_hawks, I think they're referring to the consistent posters here who never fail to include the phrases, "PC hire," "affirmative action hire," "politically correct hire" and so on in their complaining rants about Coach Gill's presence here. The obvious, between the lines message is that they believe Gill was hired simply because he's African-American and that there's no way he could be qualified to lead this program.

Perhaps you don't often read the posts but the element is definitely present and quite vocal(so to speak) here.

kufanman88 12 years ago

How many four star recruits has Gill brought KU in his first two recruiting seasons?...uh none.

khummel60 12 years ago

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Brandon Bourbon is a four star who decommitted from Stanford to commit to KU and Keeston Terry is a four star who recommitted to KU, both after Gill became head coach. And Gill hasn't even been KU's head coach for a year yet, so I don't know how he could have two recruiting seasons under his belt.

kufanman88 12 years ago

Yes..he has two recruiting seasons under his belt. I guess if you take one out of the top three recruiting rankings you can call Bourbon and Terry 4 star recruits under Rivals, otherwise they are not consensus 4 stars under ESPN or Scout rankings.

khummel60 12 years ago

OK - since your emphatic that Gill has had two recruiting seasons I'll trust you know what your talking about. But can you explain how that's possible when he hasn't been at KU for a year?

And yes, if you want to split hairs about the player rankings, and pretend that Rivals isn't the most widely used ranking, then you can make the claim that Gill hasn't signed a single "consensus" four star player.

You win.

khummel60 12 years ago

Forgot to mention Darrian Miller, a four star who has orally committed to KU. That's three I think.

DevilHawk 12 years ago

You must be referring to last year and this year.

Last year was when he was hired and his focus was on keeping Mangino's recruiting class together and getting his own coaching staff together - arguably a higher focus on the coaching staff than on the recruiting class. You cannot legitimately consider that to be Gill's recruiting class. Guys who changed commitments to KU because of Gill's hire can be considered to have changed their commitment because of Gill, but that's not the same as an entire class.

This year's recruiting season is still going on - and is arguably just heating up for Gill now that he can focus entirely on recruiting and has plenty of tape to know where all of the problems are.

rob4lb 12 years ago

I always find the posts to be interesting. I saw alot of the games and it was clear to me that there was a huge disparity in talent between KU and most of the other Big 12 schools. We are slower, smaller and weaker and not nearly as deep. I don't know if Turner Gill is a good coach, but I doubt that any coach would have coached this team to bowl eligibility. We should have beaten NDSU but who else? Gill needs to be given an opportunity to see if he can bring in higher skilled players. That is what he is supposed to be good at. The coordinators have a proven track record.

Finally, it is revisionist history to say the Mangino elevated the program to a sustained Top 25-30 level. He did not. He had one good year. KU plays a cupcake non-conference schedule which is good for a guaranteed 3-4 wins. The other three bowls KU qualified for, the team had six wins twice and seven wins once. None of those teams had a winning conference record and under Mangino, KU never got a signature victory over any of the powers in the Big 12- ie. OU, UT or TT. With the exception of 2007, Mangino's teams never had a season where they were one of the Top 6 teams in the conference.

Jamaal25Chiefs 12 years ago

You know. . . as a Jayhawk fan. . and future student. . I am SICK of hearing everyone say Turner Gill SUCKS. . . Mangino SUCKED in his first year too. . . and should i point out we had too replace Reesing, Meier, Briscoe, AND Stuckey? . . You don't full those shoes in one year with a NEW slate of coaches. . . if i were being recruited i wouldn't wanna go to a school with ALL new coaches in its first year. . . A BULK of you fans are far too impatient to let Gill do what he wants too do. . . We have the coaching staff to build a program. . . Look at where they have all been for gods sake! . . . Chuck Long? 2 Heisman QB's? HELLO. . . thats alone more than Kansas' HISTORY! . . . Give Gill 2 or 3 more years and see where he leads us. . . If the players say he is the best coach they have EVER had. . that MEANS something. . . Especially on a losing team!

DevilHawk 12 years ago

You must not be following the comments very well. Many of us our tired of the "Fire Gill" / "Gill Sucks" crowd. That said, the points that you brought up have been mentioned time and time again - and more succinctly.

Also, there is a thing called the "enter key"/"return key."

Jamaal25Chiefs 12 years ago

Also i MUST point out. . . Remember the Chiefs last year? EVERYONE hated Todd Hailey. . . NOW LOOK! EVERYONE Loves the man. . . . Enough said.

waywardJay 12 years ago

People Immediately shift the blame for the chiefs onto the two new england Coordinators, and then ignore the fact that Halley and "the rascal" have been at each other publically since OTAS and than Crennel's scheme while sometimes effective has been gashed quite heavily by teams with inferior personel.... Buffalo, Jacksonville, Oakland, Denver.....

There has been aloto f positives out of the chiefs, but it's not a fair comparison... Unless in year 2 we have a breakout performance or two....

For those who DO want an interesting comparison..... Look at The Steelers game last year, where guys "started" getting it under Pendergasts( sp?) defense..... you found a few no names who made plays, like studebaker for one....

In truth, It's all of the above.... Cassel to Bowe, Charles and Jones, Better line play, amazing improvement by players such as Dorsey and Jackson, Derrick Johnson.... the rooks ( mcCluster, Moeaki, Berry, and Arenas... that draft is looking outstanding right now.... ) and of course the coaching.... the schedule..... and a little bit of Luck.... I mean, would denver have been 3-8 had they traded Peyton Hillis straight up for Brady Quinn ( it's really that cold and cutting in black and white ), Vincent Jackson sitting out this season because San Diego's owner refused to pay a top flight receiver, and Oakland having everything go right but still so wrong at the same time.....

Jamaal25Chiefs 12 years ago

No what i am comparing is. . . how Hailey got his coaching and schemes over in a years time. . . he got his players too respect him and the way he wants too run the show and Gill is going to do the same. . . i know he will. . . He isn't as aggressive as a coach should be no? But he took what was called "The Worst" college football team to coach in buffalo and took em to a bowl game. . . . thats a lot to brag about! . . . could you imagine asking a kid too come play for Buffalo? lol. . . . I am glad to have Turner Gill and i know he will lead us to great things too come. . . its all about being patient. . it may not be next season. . but in his 3rd or 4th season. . . Watch out. Because he knows how to get players for the program. . . and he will get the speed and personnel on the field that we need.

khummel60 12 years ago

Excellent post! It's always nice to see a rational assessment.

Lots of things about Gill's performance this year made me uneasy as well. Does anyone remember the beginning of the season and how we couldn't get a play off on time, or repeatedly had to call time out because we had the wrong players on the field or because someone couldn't get off the field in time, or how players were muffing their blocking assignments on punts, etc.? Those were incredibly embarrassing mistakes that you can only blame on the coaches. I also don't want to hear how much the players love Coach Gill because I too remember the Herm Edwards debacle, and what happens when you let the inmates run the asylum. I also agree with the folks that say Gill was learning on the job this year. Clearly he was, and we all payed the price for that - no one more than the players themselves. And, like everyone else, I expected us to be more competitive, yet we routinely got run over. And I also don't think Gill quite grasps yet how offensive it is to Jayhawk fans that we got taken to the wood shed by both KSU and MU.

All of that said, however, I still believe the jury is out on what kind of coach he will ultimately be, and how successful this program will ultimately become. Folks hate to read this, but Gill needs several years before anyone can fairly evaluate him or his staff. None of us really knows what kind of shape Mangino left this team in, or what kind of talent Gill truly had to work with. The discussions about how this coach or that coach should have been our coach are pointless. None of us was involved in that process, and so we really don't know all the reasons Gill was hired, or what Perkins vision really was.

I believe Gill has a long-term plan, and that this entire year was little more than extended training camp. Of course Gill wanted to win games, but more important was his evaluation of various players in various positions under various circumstances. Will Gill succeed? - No one knows. But if that's what it takes to turn this mediocre program into a perennial winner, then I'm prepared to suffer through it and be patient. What other choice do any of us have any way?

LAJayhawk 12 years ago

Both of the posts above are rational, measured, and well articulated.

Well done, The Dude & khummel.

Jack Wilson 12 years ago

Wayward Jay: When I asked what Mangino did that was racist, you said Mangino allegedly "said to one of our players on our current team... Keep that stuff up and you will be back in St. Louis, does that sound like fun getting shot with your homies....."

How is that racist?

Oh, I forgot, because blacks refer to their "friends" as "homies", whites shouldn't. So is referring to a black kid's friends the way he may refer to them is racist? That's right, many blacks routinely use the "N" word, and then whine (or get violent) when someone else of another race does.

Or is it that Mangino said "getting shot" .. how is that racist? Oh, that's right, blacks in the inner city spend an inordinate amount of time shooting and killing each other in senseless violence that we should just pretend doesn't happen. The reality is that speaking the truth, backed by crime statistics, is racist, right?

esque: Never .. ever .. heard that Mangino used the "N" word to a player. And I know two folks that were involved with the program, and one that was a former player that knew a number of people in the program. He was a Mangino backer. I believe what you have said is slanderous, and a complete fabrication.

If a coach points out to a kid that he may return to his not so pleasant home environment if he doesn't get with the program, it is only racist if it is directed at a black player.

I have no doubt that coach Gill is a better human being than Mangino, a nicer guy, a guy with whom you'd rather be friends with. But that isn't the question.

honk_for_hawks 12 years ago

in response to the post at esque, you would have been better off not pointing out that your source was a mangino backer since that just put a clear bias in his information. two, I have several friends who work for the football program either as trainers or media relations people and they have told me he dropped the N bomb on a regular basis. As for your assertion that its only racist because a white person said it is completely false. It's racist if it is used in a derogatory context, which it no doubt was the majority of the time. I seriously doubt Mangino was waddling into the weight room and saying "what up my N*s?". As for the "getting shot" comment, I'm not going to say for sure that it is necessarily racist (although you could make arguments that it was), but considering the fact that he said it because the player had friends that had DIED in shootings back home, it was more than a little insensitive and offensive. Lastly, I don't know why in the world I even respond to what is so clearly NOT an open minded person, but the mere fact that you are trying to rationalize such a blatantly offensive exchange is horrifying to me and I hope you realize that.

khummel60 12 years ago

Well said. I'm quite certain you are wasting your time with HEM, but I give you allot of credit for trying. This page is a perfect demonstration of why we can't have an honest dialogue about racism in this country. It instantly goes nuclear.

Jack Wilson 12 years ago

Honest dialogue? Do you really want honest? No one on the liberal side of the fence wants honest. Too worried about offending someone.

honk_for_hawks 12 years ago

Go watch your Bill O'Reilly and Joe Scarborough so they can tell you how to think and how to talk louder to prove your point is right. Did you know that if you yell loud enough, that automatically means whatever you said is right?

HawkInAL 12 years ago

Bottom line: Mangino lost the team. They wouldn't play for him. The last couple of years he recruited bigs horribly, as evidenced by our lines and lb's this year. And his play calling was suspect, culminating with the most idiotic series of play calls ever on the final 3-and-out versus Missouri.

Lew decided to hire the anti-Mangino. Done.

It's one year in. Quit crying.

See you at Bobby Dodd Stadium on 9/17/11. Go Hawks!!!

bigtex 12 years ago

Gill doesn't do any of the coaching at all, thats how some head coaches do it. What he does is manages his coaching staff, public relations, and helps recruiting. That being said he better take a good look at his OC, if Long stays on the staff KU football program is dead , thats the worst offensive play calling and QB management I have ever seen in a season. Wyatt did will at So. Miss let him be OC.

miltnewton 12 years ago

For those of you who say race is such a factor in the anti-Gill comments, curious why aren't those same "racists" going after his boss's know the one who oversees our recent, nationally embarrasing athletic department (among other things) and happens to be black?

LAJayhawk 12 years ago

I really have no desire to enter into the "racist" debate -- as I see it as an exercise in futility -- but I do want to mention that as a fairly regular reader of and the accompanying comment boards, that I have often read negative and tactless posts about the current chancellor often in the same breath as those slamming our current head football coach (generally something along the lines of "get rid of BGL while your at it"). And while I don't specifically remember any of them being overtly or subtly racist, I'm sure if you were to search you would certainly find a comment or two suggesting the hiring of Chancellor Gray-Little was an affirmative action response.

There have been very, very few positive comments directed at the chancellor on the comment boards of KUSports, and, honestly, I don't expect there should be as she does not directly intervene in most of the sports decisions. I really don't see much reason to comment on her at all with the exception of the AD hire. I remember no comments about our previous chancellor on this website.

Yet, Chancellor Gray-Little often has crass and sometimes negative statements made about her.

Again, this is not joining in on the debate, just my observation and response to your post.

miltnewton 12 years ago

LAJayhawk, you have proven my point exacty. Other than a couple idiots who probably are racist, nobody is going after our Chancellor for doing a poor with Lew and the athletic department because it is not warranted. A racist would use that window of opportunity to pile on using the ticket scandal incident as a masked excuse for their racism, don't you think? I agree, not interested in the "racist" thing because to me it is blantaly obvious KU embraces ethnicity and the like. I merely challenge those poor schlubs who brought it up in the first place. A LOT will dislike HCTG until he wins like they would any other coach. Race is a non-factor for 99.9% of readers on this site.

LAJayhawk 12 years ago

Due respect, miltnewton, I don't believe I've proven your point exactly, I just haven't completely countered your argument. I made the point that this particular chancellor has had much more said about her -- and almost always negative or uncivil -- than the previous chancellor.

Have you ever heard anyone make a disparaging remark about Chancellor Hemenway even though this ticket scandal occurred almost exclusively under his watch?

I'm not necessarily saying this is racist (and I have no personal comment on that one way or another), but I can see where someone might believe it to be.

honk_for_hawks 12 years ago

I agree that race is a non-factor for the vast majority of this site. At no point have I suggested otherwise. I'm just in an arguing mood today because I'm sick at home and have nothing better to do. At least the game is almost on so I can have that to look forward to.

Jack Wilson 12 years ago

honk_for_hawks: I pointed out the former player was a Mangino backer for just that purpose; the other two actually really disliked him; both said he was a great football coach.

Absolutely not trying to rationalize the comment. Again, with people like you, you miss the point. Swing and a miss. My point is that it is not racist. That's it. Not that the exchange is right or wrong. Further, above, you agree with waywardjay stating that the example is an example of racism, then you concede it is not necesarily racist, but there is an argument it is. You have absolutely proven my point. You can't have it both ways. But you name call. When something distasteful happens to a black person, such as this, it is not automatically racist or based on race, nor should that be assumed. But that's how you look at the world.

Then .. and I love this .. you insult Mangino on his weight .. the waddling comment .. (I guess the insult on the weight is ok by you. But even imply race .. ooh, that's bad. I am interested in what insults are ok, and what aren't by your standard. You appear to be a fataphobe).

Even better, you try to differentiate between what context the "N" word was used. I guess I could really give a rip if it is "racist" by definition. My sole point is that if a black person used the "N" word in a derogatory fashion, or any other, you and the rest of society brush it off, no big deal. But a white person say it in the same way, derogatory or otherwise, you would think he had committed murder.

The hypothetical comment you refer to .. "what up my N*s?" .. are you saying that is acceptable? Who talks like that? I'm curious as to your answer on who talks like that. And I am offended .. you said "what up" instead of "what's up" clearly implying blacks don't use proper English. That is racist.

And finally, what do you mean "open-minded"? What you mean, as with folks of your ilk, is that I don't think like you. I actually think for myself. I actually use logic. I actually base my opinion on fact, not on emotion or feelings.

bigjay83 12 years ago

Base your opinion on fact, not emotion. Interesting.

"Then .. and I love this .. you insult Mangino on his weight .. the waddling comment .. (I guess the insult on the weight is ok by you. But even imply race .. ooh, that's bad. I am interested in what insults are ok, and what aren't by your standard. You appear to be a fataphobe)."

--To my knowledge, no overweight person has ever been enslaved, lynched, systematically murdered, given reduced rights and seperated from other sections of society, or considered as only 3/5ths of a person by the Constitution of the United States simply because he or she was fat. In fact, a number of them have been elected President.

"My sole point is that if a black person used the "N" word in a derogatory fashion, or any other, you and the rest of society brush it off, no big deal. But a white person say it in the same way, derogatory or otherwise, you would think he had committed murder."

--That may be because, for almost the first 200 years of this country's existence that word uttered by a white man often involved a black man hanging from the end of a rope. Interesting that you chose the term "murder." The two have a direct correlation.

With all due respect, HighElite, I don't think that Gill haters are racist (probably a few, but certainly not all), but your arguments -- all of them -- reek of naivity and overflow with emotion. An example of a rational response to this topic is made by marchphog88 above. Yours, on the other hand, is quite emotional and often lacking logic. Not everyone who disagrees with you is liberal, nor does that even have any relevance. Not everyone who disagrees with you does not think for themselves and is illogical. Have a measured conversation, otherwise you simply look crazy.

My opinion. Dissect it as you may.

honk_for_hawks 12 years ago

Since I need to get to the fieldhouse for the game I'll make this quick,

"Further, above, you agree with waywardjay stating that the example is an example of racism, then you concede it is not necesarily racist, but there is an argument it is. You have absolutely proven my point. You can't have it both ways. But you name call. When something distasteful happens to a black person, such as this, it is not automatically racist or based on race, nor should that be assumed. But that's how you look at the world." -I agreed with him until you made one of your few valid points that it wasn't necessarily racist. Out of context it isn't racist, although you have no idea of the thought process in Mangino's head to lead him to say that. He may have said that with the thought in mind that all inner city black kids must get shot at. Now I assume the player in question was most likely from East St. Louis if they were indeed from a rough area of St. Louis, which would make your comment that statistics back it up valid. I didn't attempt to have it both ways, I simply argued that you could look at it both ways. I never actually said I was firmly in either camp.

honk_for_hawks 12 years ago

"Then .. and I love this .. you insult Mangino on his weight .. the waddling comment .. (I guess the insult on the weight is ok by you. But even imply race .. ooh, that's bad. I am interested in what insults are ok, and what aren't by your standard. You appear to be a fataphobe)." -actually I have no problem with insulting someone's weight when they have all the facilities and resources to live a healthier, more fit lifestyle. If he had some sort of disease that made him fat, that would be completely different, but as far as I know, he just loves to eat. Whether I am right in thinking this way is completely up for debate which you are right about, but I have personal reasons for disliking lazy obese people. #1: I used to be very overweight my freshman year of high school. Then I got off my butt, started running everyday and eating less. I dropped 55 lbs in about 4 months and I'm glad to say I am still at a healthy body weight according to the Body Mass Index. It annoys me when people who are overweight claim to be discriminated against when they can do something about it. Black people can't do anything about being black. Physically handicapped people can't do anything about being physically handicapped. The 350lbs guy who eats a box of twinkies on his lunch break every day and spends more time on the coach than lint CAN do something about it. #2: If you look at the healthcare system over the past few decades as obesity in this country has continued to spiral out of control, it is estimated by various financial statistics that obesity related healthcare costs reached almost 150 billion in 2008. This is double what the same statistic was in 1998 and based on their projections, this number would reach close to 350 billion by 2018. For reference, that is about 10% of healthcare spending, for health costs that are for the most part preventable. I'll admit I don't have time to research the numbers further, but based on the US News article I pulled these numbers from, that is what it is costing the US. As in that is the amount of money government insurance programs and other programs are spending. I can only imagine that when the out of pocket expenses for those individuals is factored in, the number would climb dramatically. So yeah, I don't think making a comment about someone's weight is the same as making a comment about someone's race.

honk_for_hawks 12 years ago

"Even better, you try to differentiate between what context the "N" word was used. I guess I could really give a rip if it is "racist" by definition. My sole point is that if a black person used the "N" word in a derogatory fashion, or any other, you and the rest of society brush it off, no big deal. But a white person say it in the same way, derogatory or otherwise, you would think he had committed murder." -I don't remember ever saying that it is okay for a black person to use it in a derogatory fashion. I personally think that it is a disrespectful word that unfortunately has made its way into black culture as a term of familiarity. In no way does being black change the rules of using it. Its just as bad if a black person uses it in a derogatory sense. Bill Cosby makes some good arguments as to why the term shouldn't be used by anybody. "The hypothetical comment you refer to .. "what up my N*s?" .. are you saying that is acceptable? Who talks like that? I'm curious as to your answer on who talks like that. And I am offended .. you said "what up" instead of "what's up" clearly implying blacks don't use proper English. That is racist." -Proper English is so hard to define in this day and age. Who is to say what is proper and what isn't? Is it arbitrary or does anybody follow those rules we learned in 3rd grade? I have read NY Times articles, medical journals, and various other publications that you would of course assume would follow all these rules and no one follows the rules of grammar that we all learned when we were in grade school. You aren't supposed to start a paragraph with a preposition, but everyone does it. You aren't supposed to start a sentence with a conjunction such as and or but, but everyone does. My point is that you read way too much into my comments in the hopes that you can make me look like a fool, but in all reality, I was simply speaking in a more casual way reminiscent of the way athletes may speak in the informal area of the weight room. Some of my smartest friends are African-Americans. With 4.0 GPAs and 1500+ scores on their SATs, I don't really think I would have any reason to think that African-Americans are less intellectually capable than anyone else. In fact, one of those friends just got his PhD in English from Cornell so I'm going to go ahead and say your comment that I was being racist is wrong.

honk_for_hawks 12 years ago

"And finally, what do you mean "open-minded"? What you mean, as with folks of your ilk, is that I don't think like you. I actually think for myself. I actually use logic. I actually base my opinion on fact, not on emotion or feelings." -And by open-minded, I meant that your arguments seemed to suggest an already made up point of view. At no point did I notice you making concessions to anybody else's arguments. At no point did you suggest that something you said was anything other that fact and any conflicting opinion was stupid and ill-conceived. As for basing opinions on facts as opposed to emotion or feelings. Almost all recorded facts and statistics were at one point based on a "feeling". When a study is performed, it is based on the belief or "feeling" that something is true and the study then sets out to prove or disprove that theory. When I have facts, I present them. When I don't, an opinion based on previous experiences and feelings generated from those previous experiences are what people have to go on. I have no problem having a logical, fact-based debate with someone and contrary to what you apparently believe, all my thoughts and opinions are my own. My grandpa, a Korean War veteran and the best human being I've ever known, always said that there is no problem agreeing with a particular political party, but don't let them think for you. Each and every issue deserves to be debated individually and if your opinion differs from your adoptive political party, then so be it. I can't remember who said it, but their are 300 million political parties in the US. No two people think exactly alike, and that is what makes this country so great.

DevilHawk 12 years ago

FYI: Nobody wants to read a block of text.

honk_for_hawks 12 years ago

It was split up much better when I originally typed it. Then the LJ-world told me my comment was too long so I had to break it down and I was too lazy to go back through and re-edit it.

jayhawk2144 12 years ago

would you people quit argueing over stuff. Mangino was a good coach, this is the same poop was said when mangino wented 2-10 during his first year of coach at KU after a year we went to 4 Bowls and coming out winning 3.. Coach Gill is a good coach hell he did better his first year than mangino and. So i would say that our Future looks bright.

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