Tuesday, February 5, 2013

Statehouse Live: Bill would require KU to play Wichita State University in basketball


Reader poll

Should KU be forced to play Wichita State?

  • Yes 27% 143 votes
  • No 72% 381 votes

524 total votes.

— This week, the state of Kansas has three college men’s basketball teams ranked in the Top 25 in the USA Today Coaches Poll.

But one of those teams, Wichita State University, doesn’t play the other two, Kansas University and Kansas State University.

That would change under legislation introduced Tuesday by state Sen. Michael O’Donnell, R-Wichita.

Starting in the 2014-15 academic year, KU and K-State would each have to schedule a nonconference game with Wichita State.

“These are absolutely going to be sellout games,” O’Donnell said.

O’Donnell said the matchups would be a hit with basketball fans and promote the state. He said the games would also decrease travel time for the teams.

Similar legislation has been filed before and clanked off the rim.

But O’Donnell noted he has a powerful teammate running the floor. Senate President Susan Wagle, a Republican, is from Wichita.

O’Donnell originally proposed making state funding to KU contingent on playing Wichita State.

But he removed that provision before officially introducing the measure, saying he didn’t want his proposal to be confrontational.

He said that the measure was not a top priority of his but that he wanted legislators to at least discuss the idea. Other states have passed similar bills to create in-state rivalries.

KU and Wichita State have not played since 1993 when KU defeated the Shockers, 103-54.

Tim Caboni, KU’s vice chancellor for public affairs, said he appreciated O’Donnell’s “excitement and support of Jayhawk basketball, and his enthusiasm expressed through this bill.” But, he added, “It would be our great preference that Coach (Bill) Self along with the staff in Kansas Athletics craft the annual basketball schedule for KU.”

In a recent interview with ESPN, Self was asked why KU won’t play Wichita State.

Here was his answer: “Kansas hasn’t played Wichita State for years, way before I was the coach at Kansas. … Iowa plays Northern Iowa because the state Legislature says you have to. If someone were to come and say something that it’s law, then we would have to. But you schedule to benefit your own school, not to benefit others. You have to benefit your own school. I want to play games that benefit us, and, from a financial standpoint, it’s hard to play games away from Allen Fieldhouse since that’s our main source of budget every year.”

O’Donnell said that under his proposal, he would let the schools figure out where to play the games.


adamjhwkfan 9 years, 8 months ago

Another somethin' for nothin' idea that could only be cooked up in the political arena.

JayHok 9 years, 8 months ago

O'Connel has connections to Kentucky. This is his attempt to make all Kansas programs fight for the same recruits in a low populated state. His dream is for Fort Hays State, Washburn, Emporia State and many otherss to become D1 under this law... You can see where this would go in 10 years if these other schools became D1. No Kansas school could then recruit outside of Kansas, wouldn't he love that!

Gary Wirsig 9 years, 8 months ago

Don't really follow your logic. How would any of the events you mention stop KU from recruiting out of state players? I must be a little dense this morning...

johnnyhrdwd 9 years, 8 months ago

I'd bet somebody from the Vickers family could get it done. OU plays Tulsa at Tulsa because it's good for their state, even in football.

nuleafjhawk 9 years, 8 months ago

I'd drive a lot further than that to watch your avatar !

texashawk10 9 years, 8 months ago

I would love to see KU and WSU start playing again and if it takes state involvement, so be it because we all know it's not happening anytime soon if it's left up to school administrations. I'm glad this bill isn't a top priority though and it will probably die like last time.

Robbk1066 9 years, 8 months ago

You are as uninformed as the state rep. Why should the state get involved in scheduling a sports team? How in the world is this their business??? This is only in the interest of WSU, no one else. These type of activities show how messed up some politicians are. They have lost perspective on their job. Makes me sick that this is even brought forward.

clevelandjayhawker 9 years, 8 months ago

Im cool with this......if its for football also

gchawk 9 years, 8 months ago

Kind of figured he was, but you never know.

Jeff Coffman 9 years, 8 months ago

I'm assuming you didn't know that WSU football team was killed in a plane crash (previous to the Marshall plane crash).

TommieSmithElbow 9 years, 8 months ago

I think Cleveland's comment was TOTALLY tongue-in-cheek and had nothing to do with the fact that an earlier team was nearly wiped out by the plane crash. For the record, the plane crash didn't terminate the program. Football was discontinued over 15 years after the crash.

Eric J. Baker 9 years, 8 months ago

Incidentally, good ol' Lew Perkins was the Athletics Director at Wichita State that decided to end the football program. Needless to say, that's two Kansas universities that aren't too big on him.

Alan Braun 9 years, 8 months ago

We don't play them for the same reason we won't play Missouri anymore. There's nothing in it for us. Gives them more money; we sell out our place anyway. Would get them on TV more. Give them more credibility with the in-state recruits we may also be trying to get. Nothing to gain, lots to lose.

jhox 9 years, 8 months ago

There was a time when that was true, but other than slightly less money I don't see it as a bad thing. Solid competition isn't a bad thing. Having a quality opponent in Allen every other year isn't a bad thing. We beat them 9 out of 10 times...I could live with that. Our program will not be challenged by them in recruiting.

I don't like the idea of being forced to play them, but it wouldn't be the end of the world if it happened.

Hurinfan 9 years, 8 months ago

It won't pass. Bill Self isn't opposed to playing Wichita State it would just have to be in Allen Fieldhouse every time. He's just treating WSU like every other mid-major we play. I really don't know why WSU fans are so butthurt about this.

stinkybulldog 9 years, 8 months ago

Maybe they can replace Ft. Hays State on next years preseason schedule.

ahpersecoachingexperience 9 years, 8 months ago

Tell WSU they can usually find us in the Final Four if they would like to meet us!!!

nuleafjhawk 9 years, 8 months ago

i was at a game where they met us in New Orleans back in '80 or '81 - It was not a happy day. Darnell Valentine missed what seemed like 15 layups and they beat us. I guess it turned out ok though - my brother in law bailed us out on Bourbon Street when my big, drunken mouth was trying to get us killed.

Joseph Kuebel 9 years, 8 months ago

Lol. Rough day. Reminds me of getting shot after losing to UCLA (where my best friend was at school) and was talkin smack all day.

Al Martin 9 years, 8 months ago

I was in the band at that game! What a disappointment that was. Cliff Levingston and Antoine Carr were bad enough, but some little nobody at guard (Jones?, can't remember) went unconscious from outside and we lost by one. Two days later, against LSU, he went 0 for 11.

But I'm not still bitter :-)

FL_Jhawk 9 years, 8 months ago

Oh, I remember. I was a recent graduate, living in Wichita at the time. I was at a bar and the game was being shown on TV there. I was aghast at the performance of my man, Darnell. One of his worst performances ever. When Wichita won, a bartender there, knowing I went to KU, came running up to me, overjoyed, and shouted obscenities at me. Lame, but understandable.

Robert Brown 9 years, 8 months ago

My senior year and KU was on a roll in the tournament. They earlier blew out #3 Arizona State. I don't think I've taken a loss as hard as that one.

actorman 9 years, 8 months ago

That was my freshman year, and I still remember vividly how brutal that loss was.

And I can also vividly remember how with 2 seconds left KU had the guy who was going to throw the ball in running along the baseline with it. The defender was running right along with him, and KU set it up so that the defender plowed right into someone. And even though Ted Owens had told the refs during the timeout that he was going to do that, the refs still didn't call anything.

But I'm not still bitter (as JayhawkInAustin put it so perfectly).

Joe Joseph 9 years, 8 months ago

Are the Koch brothers WSU fans? If so, this is a done deal.

KatnissHawk 9 years, 8 months ago

Didn't they fund that beautiful arena on campus? Think so....

actorman 9 years, 8 months ago

I always kind of liked WSU -- until now. Thanks, Katniss, for giving me a reason to hate them.

AirCapJay 9 years, 8 months ago

Why would you hate them now? WSU is not pushing this. It is a new state senator pushing this. Besides, KU plays a lot of cup cakes early in the season.

Playing WSU would be a quality game. Until WSU went brain dead as of late (like KU did Saturday) WSU RPI was real good. I'm sure to appease Self, WSU could play KU in Wichita at the Intrust Bank arena which holds 15000 for basketball and somehow make up for the loss of 1300 seats.

Travis Shinkle 9 years, 8 months ago

I guess I am indifferent as long as the games are played in Lawrence versus home and home. I don't think playing the game will do any harm to KU's RPI (it will help Wichita State) but KU already plays a fairly tough non-con virtually every the legislature is looking to force them to play other one? Not good. Let Coach and the AD figure their own non-con schedule out...

By the way, Missouri still sucks.

hawkbono1313 9 years, 8 months ago

Easy victory for KU every year. Wichita State is one of the most overrated programs in college basketball.

nuleafjhawk 9 years, 8 months ago

So is Oklahoma State.


Ludwig Supraphonic 9 years, 8 months ago

Could Sen. O'Donnell really guarantee a sellout at AFH?

Jonathan Allison 9 years, 8 months ago

if the last 200 games in Allen Fieldhouse are any indication then the answer would be yes

Sam Constance 9 years, 8 months ago

Apparently self-censored posts expressing displeasure with the legislature for wasting their time on such a frivolous "cause" is worthy of deletion without even a "this comment removed for violation" notice.

Is it against the TOS to use "[expletive]" in a post?

kcgregory 9 years, 8 months ago

In the past (it may have been prior to Self's arrival) it has been proposed to play the games at Allen Fieldhouse or, at the very least, 2 for 1 -- 2 in Allen to one in Wichita. WSU stance has been to want a 1 for 1 exchange.

Now, if WSU wants to come play in Allen with no return games, I actually think that makes sense for KU. Why not schedule WSU as opposed to out of state like programs such as SLU, Richmond, and the like. WSU is usually one of the stronger mid-majors so it could help SOS and boost interest (if that's possible) across the state. We schedule Emporia and Hays as exhibitions based on their locality. I don't see why the same couldn't be true of WSU for a non-con game, all else being equal. I also think that arrangement could make sense for Wichita St if they would just get over themselves and make it happen.

It makes no sense for KU to ever to go to Wichita. It won't get done without it being legislated and despite this bill I think that's unlikely.

Jeff Coffman 9 years, 8 months ago

Agree...Bill drives Bill away from KU is what the title should say.

Kyle Sybesma 9 years, 8 months ago

Agreed. I say it all the time. Less government = more freedom.

Cody Riedy 9 years, 8 months ago

That's true except for you know the rights of women, minorities, workers, and pretty much everybody else; rights which had to be defined and then protected by the government. Then again maybe you thought the days of slavery and robber barons were good times.

Kyle Sybesma 9 years, 8 months ago

Or Native Americans who are the poorest group in the country and have the most government invlovement in their life.

Kyle Sybesma 9 years, 8 months ago

200 years ago!! How does that make them poor today? Get over the "My Mommy didn't hug me enough" mentality.

Cody Riedy 9 years, 8 months ago

In terms of learning, a good place to start might be with - "A Little Matter of Genocide", a book by Ward Churchill, which covers the history of European interaction with Native Americans from the first encounters up until fairly recently. The first fact you'd want to straighten out is your numbers - the U.S. finished it's systematic eradication and containment of Natives in the 1880s, only about 130 years ago. After hunting natives to their nadir population, we spent the 20th century treating reservations as third world countries with puppet governments.

Kyle Sybesma 9 years, 8 months ago

You're making my point. I said Native Americans are poor and it's because they have government in their lives. Let them be free and own their property and make decisions about how to profit from it.

Jeff Coffman 9 years, 8 months ago

I wrote this previously. A few weeks ago KU ranked in the top 5 (like usual) and KSU was ranked #11. KU on the road to a sellout crowd, several story lines (e.g. both coaches from Illinois, etc.) and it wasn't even on ESPN or a major network. I had to go to Jayhawk TV/local channel to watch it.

For recruiting, if there is a student that KU wants in the state of Kansas 99% of the time we get them. I'm sure when you talked to Randle this year or Wiggins (who we are recruiting)...yes but we get to go to Wichita and play WSU, they will sing and dance as the rest of the teams are playing games in Vegas or NY Madison Garden or Chicago.

This is one of the most horrendous ideas out there and why government shouldn't be involved.

PhearThePhog 9 years, 8 months ago

Wish our government would focus on things that will really make a difference for the residents/taxpayers of the state. Another example of them putting their nose in business that it really doesn't belong. If it's such a great idea it ought to be driven by the school AD's, coaches and fans/alumni ... not legislated!

Kyle Sybesma 9 years, 8 months ago

Well said. It's funny how government thinks they have so many good ideas when in reality anything they touch creates havoc.

Dyrk Dugan 9 years, 8 months ago

the state legislature has no say in compel by law, two schools to play each other in sports is prepsosterous.

what a precedent to set. i mean, are you kidding me? this is what the legislature will spend it's time on? not one second should be spent on this.

Bill Self has already said on record, that KU has to matter whom we schedule out of conference ....period. i think eventually, we will work something out. but it won't have anything to do with a threat from our legislature.

this is big govt. at its worst. Please....some right minded KS legislators....kill this bill.

Jonathan Allison 9 years, 8 months ago

you should propose a bill that calls for state legislators to shave their rears and walk on their hands.

Chris1955 9 years, 8 months ago

Now, That's a bill I could support on all levels of government!

Gary Wirsig 9 years, 8 months ago

Wow, I thought that one actually passed and was being enacted.

Jack Wilson 9 years, 8 months ago

Yikes, are you the defender of big government?

yates33333 9 years, 8 months ago

This comment was removed by the site staff for violation of the usage agreement.

nostradavid 9 years, 8 months ago

Most of them drag their knuckles when they walk anyway.

ManCrushOnCaptainKirk 9 years, 8 months ago

If you only have 3 D1 schools in the entire state, they should all play each other. No questions asked. It's good for the state. They are state institutions. Enough said.

JayHok 9 years, 8 months ago

Kansas should be the only state in America to do this for what reason? To make the other forty-nine states happy that Kansas D1 programs are shrinking their recruiting base even more in a low-population state by forcing games by big brother tactics? WSU should use an open spot on their schedule to travel to NY and get some publicity, expand their recruiting.

briantium 9 years, 8 months ago

The state of Iowa requires Iowa and/or Iowa State to play Northern Iowa. I hear the state of Kentucky does the same.

bad_dog 9 years, 8 months ago

2 down. 48 to go. I can feel the momentum...

actorman 9 years, 8 months ago

Why would the state of Kentucky require Iowa and/or Iowa State to play Northern Iowa?

Just wondering :)

ManCrushOnCaptainKirk 9 years, 8 months ago

They should do it because (1) Wichita has one of the biggest fan bases in the State of Kansas, (2) taxes from Kansans contribute to both universities, and (3) it would generally promote basketball at the state-wide level. Any true Kansan should see it no differently.

Edwin Hailey 9 years, 8 months ago

Doesn't the legislature have better things to do? Let the schools decide their own schedules, the Govt. has better things to do.

okiedave 9 years, 8 months ago

I would favor the bill. We recruit in the Wichita area. Didn't KU schedule a game in Fargo, North Dakota so Boschee could play in front of a home crowd? Ellis could play in front of his folks as could future Wichita area recruits.

PhearThePhog 9 years, 8 months ago

Great .. but we don't need Topeka setting it up. The state of Kansas and state of North Dakota didn't set it up for Boschee to play there. The schools and coaches did it. As for recruiting in Wichita that's hardly been our a historic hotbed for recruiting except for the Ellis & Frankamp recently. We should actually be playing more in Chicago or the NE for recruiting.

Pitthawk34 9 years, 8 months ago

Hey idiot, KU does not need to play WSU to recruit the Wichita area. Give me a freakin break.

aerohawk 9 years, 8 months ago

IIRC, one of Roy's pitches to recruits was that he would schedule a game close to where they were from during their time at KU.

Tony Bandle 9 years, 8 months ago

I will issue the ultimate insult...this sounds just like something a Missouri politician would propose.

Rivalries are born...not legislated. This could open the door to a slippery slope that could makle us walk the thin line along the precipice. [Four trite imagery references in one all-time high!!! }

Woody Cragg 9 years, 8 months ago

Knockin' down the "J" Oak! Almost a slip twixt the cup of the lip.

nostradavid 9 years, 8 months ago

Give me more Oak! I know you can do better than four.

Tony Bandle 9 years, 8 months ago

I've hit the wall, stubbed my toe while running in place in a puddle of's lights out, wiping the sweat from my brow trying for five. Some days, the bear gets you!! :)

actorman 9 years, 8 months ago

No doubt they came up with the idea on a dark and stormy night ...

nostradavid 9 years, 8 months ago

Thanks for the second effort, Oak. I knew you could push the envelope. A Missouri pol is an accurate metaphor. O'Donnell is a reflection of his district; the tea baggers are in control. They are pushing all of the moderate Republicans out of the party. He was not liked by anyone else on the City Commission before he won the Senate seat. The Eagle did an expose of his rent-free living arrangement in the parsonage of his Dad's church, his only connection to that district. The only good result is the church has to pay property tax on it now.

jgkojak 9 years, 8 months ago

I have always thought it was in KU's best interest to play WSU every year. It would actually make sense for us to play 1 game a year in Wichita like we play at Sprint Center. That's hard to do if we also don't sched WSU at some point.

bad_dog 9 years, 8 months ago

K state somehow managed to schedule WVU in Wichita without WSU's help, just last year.

briantium 9 years, 8 months ago

As I understand it, Iowa and/or Iowa State are required to play Northern Iowa in basketball and football every year (or some combination thereof; aka one year UNI plays ISU in football, then Iowa the next year, and maybe plays both every year in basketball), and it's stated elsewhere that the state of Kentucky mandates the same thing, so it's not like legislating the games would be totally unheard of.

I do think both K-State and KU should be playing Wichita State in basketball every year, regardless. I mean, neither school has a problem playing them in baseball, do they? lol

Anyway, while I'd like to see a straight home-and-home series, I think a compromise might be to play at the "neutral" InTrust Arena and Sprint Center where maybe the bigger schools can get half the ticket revenue to take the sting out of losing ticket sales. Though I don't think playing one game out of your non-con in Wichita every two years is such a big money loser.

AirCapJay 9 years, 8 months ago

I think a lot of the senator's proposed bill has to do with economics for the state and the city of Wichita. Why should we be giving money to the state of Missouri and Kansas City. Why not play in Wichita at Intrust Arena once in a while. Money stays in the state. Wichita fans get to see a game without traveling to Missouri. I thought it was pretty cool when K-State and WVU played in Wichita a couple years ago.

Ludwig Supraphonic 9 years, 8 months ago

How much of the Kansas schedule do you want the state legislature to manage?

gchawk 9 years, 8 months ago

I kind of liked playing my little brother in one-on-one when we were growing up, but after awhile he just became a pest.

REHawk 9 years, 8 months ago

Bill Self has only so many opportunities to showcase his program among fans and prospects from other areas of the country. November/December games constitute huge recruiting opportunities. I am really opposed to governmental intervention regarding such scheduling. That said, if the bill should gather full political steam, and appear to be at the threshold of a done deal, I would opt for amending the bill: something along the lines of Wichita State playing the two other major state universities once every 3rd or 4th season. And that game would be played at the venue which seats the largest crowd and can generate the most media revenue. If KU or K State should suffer a financial loss, then govt. funding makes up the difference.

DCLawHawk 9 years, 8 months ago

Good grief. Now we are going to subsidize sports with tax revenue? No thank you.

Jeff Coffman 9 years, 8 months ago

Way to increase my sales tax or maybe it is my property tax.

Kansas already has an income tax of 6.2%, come on, subsidizing sports with taxes has to be one of the worst ideas I've seen.

Scott MacWilliams 9 years, 8 months ago

Hate to burst your bubbles, but who do you think is paying for all those new sports stadiums around the country??? It's not the billionaire owners. Its the taxpayers. Sure it's got some corporate name, but that just means some corp. paid to have their name on it. They sure didn't foot the whole bill by a LONG shot. That's the local/state legislatures funneling $$$ from things like roads, bridges and schools to skyboxes for the 1%...

texashawk10 9 years, 8 months ago

WSU is one of the better mid-majors out there and KU has been bitten in March by mid majors more frequently than we'd like to see so playing a quality mid major each year, sometimes in a hostile environment isn't the worst thing for KU. I personally would love to see KU and WSU play every year alternating between Lawrence and Wichita. The games in Wichita could be played at Intrust to accommodate the larger crowds KU coming in would warrant. I am also aware that this won't happen because of the bad blood between the school administrations that gets brought up nearly every time WSU gets mentioned on this site so I know the odds of a KU-WSU rivalry starting back up on their own is slim to none at this point.

briantium 9 years, 8 months ago

I believe games at Intrust would be technically a neutral game so KU or KSU would get half the revenue playing WSU there. Same with Sprint Center.

texashawk10 9 years, 8 months ago

Not necessarily, when KU played USC out in LA last year, that game was originally supposed to take place at Intrust with USC being the home team and taking the gate revenue. WSU could move a game against KU to Intrust and still call it a home game like KU does with their annual Kansas City game.

briantium 9 years, 8 months ago

Ditto your remark about playing in a hostile environment toughening them up.

Jeff Coffman 9 years, 8 months ago

So KU can sell out every game in AFH and Sprint and get the revenues, so now it should play a road game in the middle of Kansas that will not get picked up by ESPN or a major network and give up gate fees every other year?

I'm sorry, but this does not benefit KU at all, and we should not play it.

texashawk10 9 years, 8 months ago

It's not like KU has never played a true game in non-conference before and is fully committed to never leaving the comforts of their home before January like Syracuse in the future. One game every two years would not bankrupt the athletic departmen and playing good teams away from home is a good way to get battle tested for the NCAA tournament. This is one of the few issues I have with the program today is that they don't play enough good teams away from AFH and I would like to see that change and playing a non-conference against a rival school is not a bad thing.

Steve Gantz 9 years, 8 months ago

Wisconsin does it, they play UWMilwaukee, UW Green Bay and Marquette every year. They'll travel to their gyms for these games as well. Not that that is totally relevant to this conversation.
If a bill like this hits the national sports media Kansas will be the butt of a lot of jokes.

nostradavid 9 years, 8 months ago

It's too bad Bill mentioned the legislation angle in his answer. O'Donnell and Wagle are too dim for original thoughts - you don't want to give them ideas. (You are right: the Koch brothers pull a lot of strings in Topeka.) Charles Koch Arena at WSU has about 2/3 of the seats that Allen Fieldhouse has, meaning less revenue to share. Having the game at the downtown Intrust Arena would let more KU fans see it, and increase the money. The small silver lining, if this does go through, is that KU alums in Wichita will have a good opportunity to see the Jayhawks. (Norman is close, too. There are always good empty seats to fill at Lloyd Noble during basketball season.)

I hope KU has enough pull to stop this thing. Northeast Kansas legislators have never been known to vote in Wichita's best interest on anything.

I would rather worry about playing the Shockers in the NCAA tournament. They are playing great this year.

briantium 9 years, 8 months ago

Fascinating to see the hostile/snobby reaction of the KU people to this. One game in Wichita every two years is hardly going to be a financial catastrophe for KU. And if the Wichita State fan base gets up for it the way the K-State fan base does, it would only be good for KU to play in another hostile environment early in the season. That's one thing Self's always talking about, is his players not being tough enough; this could only help. There's something about an instate rival that intensifies the game. You'd think KU would be like, "Fine, we'll play you and kick your a$$", instead of this pompous "we're too good to be on the same court as you" attitude. (And I take the same attitude that K-State should play WSU every year, as well.)

bad_dog 9 years, 8 months ago

Yeah, that "hostile envoronment" has done wonders for KSU when playing KU in Manhattan.

HawkTronic 9 years, 8 months ago

As long as we are legislating entertainment, I'd like to see a bill that would require Bruce Springsteen and Alicia Keys to perform at Liberty Hall every Thursday . Come on, O'Donnell!

W Keith Swinehart II 9 years, 8 months ago

Now gov't is scheduling games. Bad idea. I'd like to see them play, but on same terms as scheduling any team. Let the two schools negotiate. It's a fact that games out of Allen will lose revenue. But strategic arrangements are made with marquee teams every year. Toss the KU vs WSU game into that mix every 5-10 years it might be fun. Or put it into the unofficial exhibition status along with Washburn, Emporia St, Ft Hays, etc. As an annual state required game its a loser for KU. I say leave it like it is.

Cody Riedy 9 years, 8 months ago

For the anti-government folks - can you provide one example from American history when less government equalled more freedom and high quality of living? And remember, non-wealthy, non-male, non-white, non-landowning people do count as Americans. Also by less government, would you remove the government entirely from the economy? So, no patent laws, no trade agreements, no FDIC, no professional licensing programs, such as for doctors, teachers, lawyers, etc, no special legal business entities with separate rights, such as corporations, no labor laws, no bankruptcy laws, no anti-monopoly laws, etc...? Which public services would you cut: education, fire and police protection, social security, education, road maintenance? Would you cut the world's largest military, which currently are government spends more money on then something like the next 11 countries combined? I'd just really like to understand how exactly this wonderful free world without government would actually work.

Mel Clare 9 years, 8 months ago

I can protect myself.................thank you very much!

Jack Wilson 9 years, 8 months ago

You ask -- "For the anti-government folks - can you provide one example from American history when less government equalled more freedom and high quality of living?"

The answer -- Yes, see the end of the Revolutionary war. There's a great place to start.

Stupid references to race, wealth, and gender.

But to the point, you are taking a position of government vs. no government. I see a straw man. You are arguing to crickets. Who says "no government." Try actually arguing against an actual position.

And, of course, you miss the point .. the huge majority aren't anti-government, they are anti-BIG government. The kind that over-regulates, over-spends, over-taxes, over-steps -- all why wasting our money on a bureacratic nightmare of fat that has put us in the financial position our nation now finds itself.

Cody Riedy 9 years, 8 months ago

The end of the revolutionary war? You mean when basically only white land-owning males had any meaningful self-efficacy? Sure. And just as with those who call for reforming taxes by getting rid of loopholes, which ones? So again I ask which part of government would you get rid of? I'm all for getting rid of patent laws. That would virtually solve at least half the problem with growing healthcare expenses. Sure, I'd get rid of bankruptcy laws so that the government doesn't spend resources via the court system to chase down money on behalf of businesses who made free choices to extend credit. Sure, I'd get rid of laws regulating corporations to make it harder for them to dodge taxes, liabilities, and bankruptcy and so that individuals in those corporations could be held financially and criminally liable for their actions. Are those the kinds of things you'd get rid of?

DCLawHawk 9 years, 8 months ago

Wow. Where to begin? Getting rid of patent laws would just end innovation in health care, which would not reduce healthcare expenses in the long run. Bankruptcy laws are what allow debtors to discharge what they owe to lenders, not the other way around. That said, the court system is a public good available to all citizens to enforce contracts, including contracts to repay debt freely incurred. Individuals in corporations can already be held financially and criminally liable for their own actions—but that is actually a huge problem in some cases because the corporation doesn’t enjoy the same 4th and 5th Amendment rights that individuals enjoy. So, a prosecutor can take advantage of the reduced rights of a corporation to go after employees who might well be innocent. You have funny ideas when it comes to laws and liberty. Now did you have a basketball-related point that you wanted to make?

Cody Riedy 9 years, 8 months ago

1) Public funds are already often used to fund research; a great deal of research is done at universities with a mix of public and private funding and often to the benefit of corporation who acquire the patent rights to those research findings; patents (i.e. government intervention into the economy to sanction a monopoly) allow pharmaceutical corporations to grossly overprice medicines; the money saved by curbing patents, would not only drastically reduce medical costs, but provide plenty of money to continue to invest in public research. The super-profitable pharmaceutical and insurance industries (not to mention the hospital-complex industry) are responsible for the U.S. having the most expensive medical care in the world. 2) Yes, I know that bankruptcy potentially allows individuals to get out of debt, but it is still an example of the government interceding between private individuals operating in the economy - also, when a private individual goes bankrupt, he can be forced to liquidate his property. When a corporation goes bankrupt, the the private property of the CEO and management who ran the company into bankruptcy is protected. If I hurt someone, I am personally liable. If the corporation I run causes damage, the company is liable, but again, I am personally not liable. There's been a slew of cases recently in which the government has made settlements with corporations to pay fines, but where there has been no individual party held legally or financially liable. If someone claims that their talent is so rare and valuable and that it is their work that is responsible for the company's profits and therefore they deserve to make several many millions a year, it seems strange that they are not responsible for when their companies make mistakes - in short, different laws for corporations than for individuals. If I go into debt, the government can intercede on behalf of businesses to obtain payment - e.g. by garnishing wages. The government is interceding into the economy. These are just small examples of the government actively participating in the economy. Those who clamor for "small" government, really are saying they want a "intervene-only-on-behalf-of-corporate-profit-government".

ancient_hawk 9 years, 7 months ago

"I'm all for getting rid of patent laws. That would virtually solve at least half the problem with growing healthcare expenses."

Yes, I imagine we could have saved a ton of money by now by practicing 1950s medicine. Just think of all that "wasted" research money.

"Sure, I'd get rid of bankruptcy laws so that the government doesn't spend resources via the court system to chase down money on behalf of businesses who made free choices to extend credit."

You honestly don't even know what the purpose of bankruptcy is, do you?

Brianna Zaleski 9 years, 8 months ago

And, of course, you miss the point .. the huge majority aren't anti-government, they are anti-BIG government. The kind that over-regulates, over-spends, over-taxes, over-steps -- all why wasting our money on a bureacratic nightmare of fat that has put us in the financial position our nation now finds itself.

This is what is so well put

DCLawHawk 9 years, 8 months ago

I've never seen you on this message board before WindmillGIANT, but I'm happy to provide you with one example of less government equalling more freedom and a higher quality of living: stopping the wind production tax credit. There is no reason to subsidize wind energy. When we do it, we are raising costs for both the taxpayer and the ratepayer. Get the government out of the business of picking winners and losers and you both enhance freedom and create a higher standard of living. If you want windmills, pay for them yourself!

Cody Riedy 9 years, 8 months ago

After this, I'll try to resist continuing to respond; I don't want to perturb everyone else with political talk on a sports page. What I was trying to suggest in some of my above comments, is that the government is massively involved in numerous ways to grease the wheels of corporate profit. When people argue for the (mythical) "free" market, they are either disingenuous or willfully blind to the ways in which the government and economy are intimately intertwined. A short book written for a non-specialist that highlights some of the ways the government and legal system intercede on behalf of big business, for those interested in the debate about the size and role of government: "The Conservative Nanny State - How the Wealthy Use the Government to Stay Rich and Get Richer"; it's written by the well-respected economist Dean Baker.

Jeff Coffman 9 years, 8 months ago

A few examples: 1) Oxygenated Gasoline-It is supposed to reduce emissions, but the lower amount of MPG actually increases the amount of emissions over the same distance. 2) Social Security-Yes I would cut it...I could probably do a pretty good job of getting a better return on my 12.4% investment as compared to what I pay in. 3) All of these "Green Investments", Solar, wind, etc. I think most of the companies are bankrupt without the subsidies. Not to mention with newer drilling techniques, natural gas and crude productions will be self-sustaining in the US in 2 years where exports are expected to occur within 20 years. 4) Ethanol-Legislating a certain amount of blended ethanol into gasoline has increased food/corn costs by 10x, but it hasn't reduced the cost of gasoline at all. 5) It's interesting you bring up utility companies, when was the last time rates on your utility bill went down? There have been great innovations in power generations, but the rates continue to increase. With huge legislations against coal facilities, the rates will continue to increaes.
6) Farmers have been subsidized actually not to grow food, we have fewer acres farmed because of subsidies and legislation across the US. 7) Each increase in the minimum wage law, actually decreases the demand for jobs and also increases the amount of hours required for an individual who is salaried. 8) Obama's healthcare law is intended to get more coverage and more people paying into the system, but my taxes have increased and my premiums have increased since the passing of this health law. 9) My property taxes have increased every year, but education scores etc continue to go down; however, private schools have out performed public schools. One is subsidized one is not. 10) You even cite the FDIC, it's interesting, I've had deposits in Banks since I was a kid, but when banks made poor investments, it was tarp funds that saved them (my tax dollars) and not the FDIC.

I figure 10 is enough, but I could keep going if needed. I could also give some examples when you evaluate outside the US as well.

Jeff Coffman 9 years, 8 months ago

I'm not sure if my examples actually contradict your position. My examples focus on when government thinks it is the one that is creating or subsidizing innovation, when usually it funds things that aren't necessary.

Yours is an interesting delimma, I'm clearly not up to speed like you are on the issue; however, I do understand the idea that patents were usually created to protect ones investment; however, it clearly has been over abused. I've heard of even patents on investment strategies, which like you say is an outdated law.

I get protecting your innovations else it makes it difficult to invest/innovate...but like you say there clearly are things that shouldn't be able to patented. I know that Google and even before that the RIM patents, etc are always interesting and agree underplayed in the media.

Cody Riedy 9 years, 8 months ago

Thanks for responding with something substantive rather than with a bumper stinker about "bureaucracy". I began writing a response to these points, but decided, I would stick to my above post and step away from the fray for now and resist overrunning the comment board with an exchange of brief essays.

Cody Riedy 9 years, 8 months ago

World's largest military in terms of budget yes. To save time, I got this list from wikipedia, but you can find this information fairly easily elsewhere if you want a more reliable source. This is spending in billions:

1 United States 711.0
2 China 143.0
3 Russia 71.9
4 United Kingdom62.7
5 France 62.5
6 Japan 59.3
7 India 48.9
8 Saudi Arabia 48.5
9 Germany 46.7
10 Brazil 35.4
11 Italy 34.5
12 South Korea 30.8
13 Australia 26.7
14 Canada 24.7
15 Turkey 17.9

In regards to number of soldiers - I'm not a military expert, but the probability of a major with China is virtually zero and if there were, we wouldn't be fighting hand to hand combat in the trenches with "boots on the ground." At least I'd hope not, since we are spending nearly a trillion dollars on the military, I'd hope we'd rely on 21st century technology to wage such a war. Also, you suggest we "were" a superpower. We are the most militarily aggressive nation in the world, with bases and troops all over the globe.

Pbbut 9 years, 8 months ago

So this is what our state legislators are working on? I would think they would be pushing some evolution bill in Topeka, because evolution obviously has not reached the statehouse yet.

Mel Clare 9 years, 8 months ago

Why is this even being discussed as a law? Dont these so called 'law makers" have anything better to do? Like figure out what to do about the deficit, highways, school systems, drug gangs and illegals in our state? They are &^%$@# worrying about BASKETBALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Just shows you how assinine most of these elected officals are..........

Jack Wilson 9 years, 8 months ago

So, we would lose one home game of revenue every other season, assuming a home and home?

Are we scared? Chicken? Yellow?

Sounds like it.

WSU has talked this crap for years. Perhaps the best remedy is to kick their asses.

bad_dog 9 years, 8 months ago

You must relish being told what to do. I'm not against them playing intermittently, but I wouldn't want a law mandating KU must play anyone aside from conference foes every year. It's a complete waste of time to even consider this legislation; particularly at this time. There are much more important things to address, you know like all the jobs Brownie was supposed to be creating?

Pitthawk34 9 years, 8 months ago

Well said...down with the bow tied jackets.

Ben Kane 9 years, 8 months ago

every game forced upon is a game taken away where we could be playing in the backyard of one our players so their family can attend, or a game that Self wants to play to experience a specific team's style of play.

the point i'm trying to make here is that I support coach Self putting the schedule he wants together.

Machawk 9 years, 8 months ago

Most everything the tea party delegates come up with here in Brownbackistan is absurd, but to legislate basketball schedules takes the cake. Let the A.D.'s work on the schedule and let the legislature figure how to fund the shortfall our dictator is heading us towards. Just because Iowa and Kentucky mandate it doesn't mean it's a good idea.

JayHok 9 years, 8 months ago

Will the state of Kansas pay the schools the $300,000 they would lose every other year by not playing an out of state opponent? How about the extra tax dollars Kansas misses out on here. This game fills a slot but instead of WSU and KU playing two separate games on a said date worth $300,000 each per school, $600,000 total, the said date is now worth $300,00 once per year, $300,000 total. This doesn't begin to cover the forced loss of a chance to recruit a different part of the United States. This is a long term state program that would lose the state millions and open the door towards a future of mediocre D1 basketball recruits in the state of Kansas, a state that needs exposure more than any other state due to population density.

Jeff Coffman 9 years, 8 months ago

Do you mean the state of Kansas will raise our taxes by an additional $600,000 to make up for the lost revenue.

milehighhawk 9 years, 8 months ago

Nothing to gain by adding the game.

I can think of a number of stupid, arcane laws that have been passed by state legislatures and remain on the books. Just because Iowa decided to set up the game doesn't make it a good idea...I think it's absurd that politicians would trouble themselves with the athletic schedules of college kids -- but of course, he's simply playing to the home crowd.

JayHok 9 years, 8 months ago

An ancient law like this would have made sense if a state is trying to jump start a few state programs that couldn't sell out a game. That's about it.

Robert Murphy 9 years, 8 months ago

The Kansas basketball team has nothing whatsoever to do with the state of Kansas which is mostly inhabited by Neanderthals. They just play their games in Lawrence with all their best players coming from other states.The legislature needs to go back to their war on women and building obsolete power plants and shut up about who Kansas plays. I will have no respect for the state of Kansas until there is an abortion clinic providing constitutionally guaranteed medical services in every little backward village which is all of them. Johnson county is kinda like a tumor that grew on the side of Kansas City and looks good on the surface but is really all about keeping up with the Jones' in their mad rush for status.

kranny 9 years, 8 months ago

Somebody needs to have his diaper changed....

Max Kandinsky 9 years, 8 months ago

We can't fund our public schools adequately or other state necessities, but hey, lets spend our time and efforts worrying about one or two basketball games a year. After this maybe we can determine the exact pose the Meadowlark should have on gift mugs.

DCLawHawk 9 years, 8 months ago

If this is an NCAA recruiting violation then forget it, but I was wishing Coach Self had said that he would be happy to schedule Wichita State just as soon as Andrew Wiggins joins the Jayhawks so that he could play against his brother.

Pitthawk34 9 years, 8 months ago

Looks like O'Donnell does not want to move up the ranks trying to force KU and K state hands. He just lost 70 percent of the state vote.

Pitthawk34 9 years, 8 months ago

Since he is a elephant I am very tempted to change to a Donkey.

jay381 9 years, 8 months ago

The last thing in the world collegiate athletics needs is a bunch of pontificating politicians with self interest attempting to manage the schedule for anyone.

Hopefully this will be one thing the KSU alums can join with KU and politely tell the mindless, self serving politicians to mind their own d__ business. Both schools are both perfectly able to schedule their own games that are in their own best interest.

Pitthawk34 9 years, 8 months ago

BS...KU will set up a schedule that they want not by what they are mandated to schedule. Your wrong dead wrong. Keep the damn government away from our sports. We have to deal with enough BS every 4 years..

Jeff Coffman 9 years, 8 months ago

Isn't it bad enough that we have to play the purple-headed stepchild twice a year?

Pitthawk34 9 years, 8 months ago

This just in GAMEDAY signs are already being prepared. "No Food Stamps WSU" and "O'Donnell Public enemy #1" Gonna happen. Just what I've been told. Some signs I cant post which will surely not be seen on TV. Gonna be fun to watch.

Norm Jennings 9 years, 8 months ago

good thing Gov Brownie and his Koch-brother cronies bought themselves enough state congress-persons to face the critical issues facing our state.

Children's services...who cares?

Money for Education, who needs it? Better to pay Lawyers to fight with Courts!

Art...waste of time and $$

more importantly...lets get justice for Shockers Basketball!!

kay_you 9 years, 8 months ago

Hmm, I thought republicans were in favor of less government.

Kansas1241 9 years, 8 months ago

This is so stupid. That idiot politician needs to realize Wichita doesn't deserve to be on the national map in college basketball. When a team can't even beat Indiana State and Southern Illinois at home they don't deserve to get a match-up with Kansas.
Oh but the governor says the games would surely be a sellout...hey governor, the REAL basketball team has sold out 193 consecutive games against teams far worse than WSU. Glad the Shockers have lost three straight so everybody can quit giving them credit for being a decent team. RCJH.

Eric J. Baker 9 years, 8 months ago

The Southern Illinois loss was on the road. Oh, and I remember a certain KU team a few years ago losing to Oral Roberts at home then just a short time later losing to DePaul on the road.

You really sound like a pompous elitist, and you make alllllll other KU fans look bad saying things like this.

Kevin Millikan 9 years, 8 months ago

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Kevin Millikan 9 years, 8 months ago

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Brian Skelly 9 years, 8 months ago

There's no benefit to KU at all with this. Thats just the reality of this. Im not a Kansas resident. Im an alum from St. Louis. I do remember that walloping back in 93 when I was a student. If I recall correctly, it was WSU that walked away from playing KU... not the other way around.

I mention this because I went to grad school at Missouri State (at the time Southwest Missouri). People down there would get ate up about Mizzou not willing to play them -- the same way WSU people get about KU (or even KSU). I remember Mizzou ended up playing SMSU in one of those early pre-season NIT games... and lost to the Bears. I think that sealed the deal. No shot in @#$@ of that happening after that. All that said, I recall thinking about the parallels with KU/WSU stuff. Mizzou wanted to protect its brand.

St. Louis University tried for decades to get Mizzou to agree to a series. I think they only played twice though a few years back. Mizzou cant claim it was money -- the game in St. Louis was played in the Dome -- 35,000+ there. Of course the fact SLU beat them probably sealed the deal on that too... no go there. But from a branding stand point, I understood it.

I for one wouldnt care, but I totally understand KU's position on this. There is truly no benefit to them at all with this. KU doesnt need to recruit Wichita... it needs to go play in Philly, N.Y., Chicago, Atlanta, L.A. That to me is the biggest reason this idea is folly. Unless of course WSU is willing to play in Lawrence every year. Otherwise, this makes no sense other than stroking the egos of folks.

flyingfinn 9 years, 8 months ago

You would think with all of the problems in this country that politicians would have better things to do that this idiotic idea. Scheduling should not be legislative fodder.

Joseph Bullock 9 years, 8 months ago

Ignorant, Arrogant politicians! They are both from Wichita, and trying to craft a bill to help their home town university. imagine that! what they are doing should be illegal, as they are using their political power to do something that has absolutely nothing to do with helping the State of Kansas. They obviously want votes, and probably a bunch of hidden (and maybe illegal) perks, from wealthy people in Wichita. Oh, and dare I say they want future votes, from people in Wichita, who want Wichita State and Kansas to play (most there want that, especially now that WSU is doing so well). Also, for those of you who don't think us playing them could hurt us in recruiting, you obviously don't know much about recruiting, and even if they get only one kid, that they would not otherwise have gotten (let's say, a future Ellis or Francamp (did I spell his name right--probably not==lol ), it could really hurt us down the road. Our University officials say our Athletic Department and Coach self should make schedule, so obviously, they know that it would not even remotely benefit K.U. to play WSU, or we would already be playing them!!!

southwindjay 9 years, 8 months ago

Don't they have more important things they should be doing?

yates33333 9 years, 8 months ago

I didn't bother to read the comments, but off hand I would say that this makes Kansas look as trashy as Oklahoma. The big difference is that O.U. guided its destiny to where the football team is more important than academics and here a second rate Kansas legislator is doing it. Wonder if he graduated from Oklahoma? He's awful close to red dirt country.

Andy Godwin 9 years, 8 months ago

We have major financial issues in the state and this is what our legislators are spending time discussing. I think we need new legislators, not mandates who should play who in basketball.

Eric J. Baker 9 years, 8 months ago

As someone who has attended both KU and Wichita State, I have to say I was very confused at all of the negative feelings towards KU and KU fans around the WSU campus and at their games. None of the fans I knew in Lawrence were disrespectful in the least.

And then I read a bunch of the comments here, saying WSU isn't a real basketball team, and other incredibly arrogant, disrespectful, and pompous things, and I realize it's people like all of you.

How about you all get off your high horse and seriously consider this? The way many of you are talking makes ME not want to admit I'm a KU fan and partial alumnus. It's embarrassing to be associated with some of you.

yates33333 9 years, 8 months ago

Somehow I didn't read the comments as you did. I went back and bothered to read them. I see nothing wrong with KU playing WSU but I think the BB coach, the AD, and any other person in the athletic department should do the scheduling not the Kansas legislature. This clown, O'Donnell, as far as I can tell is a graduate of Friends University and an ambitious politician who serves both on the Wichita city council and in the state legislature. He is a 5th generation Wichitan (I guess this is what a person from Wichita is called) and a Baptist minister's son. Far as I can tell he has done nothing else other than jump on the Tea Party wagon. Unfortunately, he is a Republican and allegedly not a liberal.

Also sportscasters consider Kansas a major conference team, and that's putting it mildly, and Wichita a second major or non major, I forget the exact term. I think most Kansans want to see K-State and Wichita do well against other teams. I know I do. I think it is called state pride. On all other occasions I do not like K-State, but I do not dislike Wichita State.

MiseryFree 9 years, 8 months ago

This is the type of government meddling and interventionist mentality you typically expect from liberal democrats. These clowns need to step back.

AirCapJay 9 years, 8 months ago

If the state legislature with pressure from KU and K-State can put pressure to on the board of regents to not support WSU football, then I think it ok for them to put pressure to force a basketball game. KU does not want WSU to have a football team because that would be one more school they would have to recruit against in the state of Kansas. There is all sorts of funky politics going on regarding state board of regents schools.

GreatJake 9 years, 8 months ago

Agreed. Politicians stay out of sports....why ruin sports?

Amazing that so many think that the government knows whats best and should tell everyone what to do.

Come on these are they same people who forced banks to loan money to people who could not pay it back....yeah that sounds like a great idea.

Oh and dont worry about military spending, after OCare concretes itself...the US wont have any money to spend on a military..........just like all the socialized medicine countries currently that are listed above.

See this is exactly why the govt should stay out of sports...who wants to have to talk about it.

JayhawkRock78 9 years, 8 months ago

Bad idea, and most posts agree. 1. Govt, stick with real problems. 2. Fans from Wichita can drive to Lawrence if they want to see KU play. 3. We earn and get national exposure going on the road against top programs for non conference games. 4. Self and the AD should have the only say in our schedule outside of conference games.

AirCapJay 9 years, 8 months ago

Marshall has stated all along his desire to play KU. Marshall is building his program. The way KU is playing today, I'm not so certain that it would be a blowout. Until WSU's last three games (what are you guys doing?), they were ranked and had an RPI higher than any other Big 12 school. Until Self gets KU back on track, I think if played today would be a very competitive game.

HawkKlaw 9 years, 8 months ago

I would be okay with KU playing WSU, but not okay with state legislature mandating it every season. I do think it's a bit of a travesty that KU hasn't played WSU since 1993, especially since WSU is really good some years. Also, since we don't play an actual "rival" during the season anymore, adding an in-state "rivalry" to the schedule would definitely be more exciting for me as a fan, especially if it means we don't have to play FHSU and ESU every season.

LakeShawnee 9 years, 8 months ago

How embarrassing for Wichita State. If I were a legislator allied or recognized in any way with Wichita State, this bill would make me cringe. How embarrassing. I mean, to be able to say you get to play KU only because it took a law to make KU stoop to your level, how embarrassing.

“Hey, we get to play KU because we were able to change the rules to make them.” What a direct way of recognizing how inferior you are. Yikes.

What’s next? A bill that requires professors at KU to spend at least one day a year thinking about an idea that comes from a Wichita State professor? I can just hear the debate, “Hey, KU professors are really smart but we have some relatively smart professors too and we want KU to consider our ideas too! Hey! We want to sit at the table too! Hey!!” Wichita State: Hillside High indeed.

Before, at least Wichita State was respectable b/c they prided themselves on who they are. Now, it just smacks of K-State’s lobbying effort to require KU and K-State to be a package deal during conference realignment so KSU remains relevant.

JayHawkFanToo 9 years, 8 months ago

There no upside to KU playing WSU on a yearly basis. According to HC Self, KU makes over $600K every games it plays at AFH. Why in the world would it schedule an unprofitable away game every other year when it can have an better suited and more profitable game at home?

KU would be expected to win every time and a loss would reflect poorly and a win be of little or no benefit.

I prefer playing the smaller schools (for Hays, Pitt, Emporia, Washburn) for whose players playing in the Cathedral of BBall is the highlight of their careers and the biggest money maker of the year for the programs..

As far as those that claim that taxes pay for KU, obviously do not know that the sports programs are self-sufficient (particularly BBall) and that little or no taxes go to pay for these expenses.

Finally, all I can say is: Thank God we don't get all the government we pay for - Will Rogers.

tdscpa 9 years, 7 months ago

KU and KSU should be forced to play WSU! Hey, it's the socialist thing to do! Share the wealth! Punish the successful!

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