Thursday, October 18, 2012

Jayhawks’ 2007 Elite Eight squad to enter KU Hall of Fame

The 2006-2007 Kansas University men’s basketball team hoists the Big 12 Tournament Championship trophy after an 88-84 victory over Texas on March 11, 2007.

The 2006-2007 Kansas University men’s basketball team hoists the Big 12 Tournament Championship trophy after an 88-84 victory over Texas on March 11, 2007.


The 2006-07 Kansas University men’s basketball team, which won Big 12 Conference regular season and postseason tournament titles and reached the Elite Eight of the NCAA Tournament, will be inducted into Kansas Athletics Hall of Fame at 11 a.m., a week from today, in the Booth Family Hall of Athletics.

All-Americans Holly Gault (soccer) and Egor Agafonov (track and field) will join the basketball team as inductees in a ceremony open to the public.

Also on tap is a brick dedication near the Phog Allen statue east of Allen Fieldhouse for former KU swimming and diving coach Dick Reamon. Reamon, who coached men’s swimming and diving from 1963-77, led KU to eight-straight Big Eight Conference men’s swim titles from 1968-75.

The 2006-07 Jayhawks were led in scoring by Brandon Rush (13.8 ppg), closely followed by Mario Chalmers (12.2) and Julian Wright (12.0). Others team members: Darrell Arthur, Brennan Bechard, Jeremy Case, Sherron Collins, C.J. Giles, Darnell Jackson, Sasha Kaun, Matt Kleinmann, Brady Morningstar, Russell Robinson, Rodrick Stewart and Brad Witherspoon. The team went 14-2 in the Big 12, 3-0 in the Big 12 tourney, then advanced to the Elite Eight where it fell to UCLA in San Jose, Calif.

Gault, a native of Spring Hill, was a two-time All-America defender from 2003-06. She led KU to a Big 12 soccer title in 2004. Agafonov, a native of Togliatti, Russia, who competed from 2006-08, was a two-time NCAA Indoor weight champion. He won three straight Big 12 titles in both the weight throw and hammer throw.

The Kansas Athletics Hall of Fame was established “to formally recognize outstanding individual and team achievements, and to preserve the heritage and tradition of the university’s intercollegiate athletics program.”

Roberson to visit: Tyler Roberson, a 6-foot-8, 210-pound senior forward from Roselle (N.J.) Catholic High School, will make an official recruiting visit to KU this weekend. Roberson, who is ranked No. 30 nationally by, has visited SMU and Syracuse with visits planed to Villanova (Oct. 26) and Kentucky (Nov. 2). He’s also made an unofficial visit to Rutgers. has identified Rutgers and Syracuse as Roberson’s current leaders.

“I think it’s just going to come down to what school is best for me, and what school has the best academics for me and how comfortable I feel,” Roberson told “I want to sign early. Hopefully I get that done, and I think that I will. I think that I’m coming close to a decision.”

NBA draft talk: ESPN’s Chad Ford lists KU red-shirt freshman Ben McLemore and senior Jeff Withey the third and fifth best NBA prospects in the Big 12. Baylor freshman Isaiah Austin is first, Texas sophomore Myck Kabongo second and Oklahoma State sophomore LeBryan Nash fourth. KU senior Elijah Johnson was listed in the “others to watch” category with OSU’s Marcus Smart and Baylor’s Deuce Bello and Pierre Jackson.

Withey was asked at Wednesday’s Big 12 Media Days to pinpoint the reason he elected to return to KU for his senior season.

“I thought I could go higher and I wanted to win a championship,” Withey said. “To be so close and lose (in final to Kentucky) is heartbreaking and gives you motivation to come back and try one more time. Elijah came back and Travis (Releford) came back and that definitely helped my decision to come back, having them by my side.

“I was with Elijah a lot (before draft declaration date) and talked to him a lot. At the end of the day, we want to win a championship and coach (Bill) Self is a pretty fun guy to play for.”

Seven-footer Withey said he will not be thinking about the NBA at all this season.

“It’s pretty easy not to focus on it,” Withey said. “The way I think is, I have a great year, I’ll be in the NBA. I’m focusing on this year now and winning games. If I do that, the benefits will show themselves.”


Joel Thomas 10 years, 1 month ago

I can see Withey dropping in NBA minds, but good for him coming back.

texashawk10 10 years, 1 month ago

Withey won't drop out of the lottery if he measures out at 7' at the combine in Chicago.

EverRisingHawk 10 years, 1 month ago

Nah, as the premier big man on a preseason #6 team, he'll get far more attention than he garnered last season. Granted, maybe part of his hypothetical 2012 first round berth had to do with the unsuspected nature of his success. However, he will now be KU's PRESENCE. What he does this year will be on everyone's radar. Last year he was a second thought, he was TRob's Robin. Despite standing in the presumptive POY's shadow, he shone through brightly and apologetically. This is Withey's year.

EverRisingHawk 10 years, 1 month ago

*Unapologetically. It was UNapologetic whenever Withey bringing down the right hand of God on any pour, unsuspecting soul who attempted a layup in hell's kitchen.

EverRisingHawk 10 years, 1 month ago

My God, dont post with distractions aplenty. Withey brought down the right hand of God on any poor, unsuspecting souls. You grammar nazis back off.

jaybate 10 years, 1 month ago

Self says he wants a big to replace 7-0 235 Withey, but is 6-8 and 210 Roberson big enough?

He projects this way:

Growth Factor for Signing: 6-9 215

Hudy Growth Factor--Sophomore: 6-9 225

Hudy Growth Factor--Junior: 6-9 235

3 years from now, Roberson will be what is needed next season.

Question: What about next season?

Ben Simonett 10 years, 1 month ago

Lots of OADs still available to bridge the gap.

thats been my preferred route from the beginning.

jaybate 10 years, 1 month ago

The problem I see with these OAD Bigs with few exceptions is that they rarely play like All Americans their first seasons. Anthony Davis was more the exception than the rule and even he blew up in the finals.

Terence Jones was much more typical. That guy was just about the most one could hope for in an OAD coming in, especially in comparison with those remaining to be signed this year. He was big, strong and could score. But he didn't really get it together till his sophomore season, even in Cal's kindergarten offense with the four pages of plays in big type with lots of stick figures and balloon explanations. :-)

I really want this OAD rule changed now for the sake of the bigs. I was indifferent for awhile, but it just perpetually irritates. It never resolves.

There is another way to solve the OAD problem for bigs than changing the OAD rule.

Call the game the way its supposed to be called.

If whistles were not swallowed, then no one would need Tyler Roberson to add 25 pounds to play butcher ball for a few seasons before turning pro.

Tyler, at 6-8 and 210 would be an ideal big for a game where XTReme Muscle were not the coin of the realm.

But that can never be allowed for some apparently obscure, likely quite complicated, and perhaps even inappropriate reasons.

Jack Wilson 10 years, 1 month ago

As benny points out, an OAD could bridge the gap. Gordon or Randle.Could.

But what does that do?

It puts us again in the position of waiting on the development of a player to be "ready" in future years. Kicking the can down the road. That's what OADs do to rosters.

I might be good with that if I had faith in the development of more of our post player contingent. But I think, ideally, we need a guy that can play as a freshman, and can develop into a NBA caliber player. We can and be able to have both.

If we sign Embiid, we can't expect him to impact next season. At least based on the info we have now.

With Roberson, we could expect him to be the 2nd or 3rd post player (and likely start). As I've mentioned in prior posts, as a second 4 man with Ellis (4 and 4a), with Peters in that mix. That seems reasonable. And that set up worked ok in 2008 with Jackson and Arthur.

And to the discussion yesterday, we just may have a team over the next few seasons, that has a different emphasis. We have the perimeter players to be lethal. We just will be playing a little different game.

I saw last night where Jermaine Lawrence is planning to visit KU. I had understood that he might not. That's good news.

If Roberson, Gordon, Randle or Lawrence fills that 5th spot, I doubt anyone will complain. I wouldn't. All would make this class an absolute blowout. But ideally, I want that 3 year guy that isn't using KU as a pit stop. Who needs KU to get to his goal.

If Embiid fills it, it would seem ... because of the anticipated time needed for development possibly making him a non-factor his freshman season .. that does create quaility and depth concerns in the post for next season. We better hope that two of our trio .. Peters/Lucas/Traylor .. end up being 13.3%ers by their sophomore seasons.

For the life of me, I cannot understand why a top post guy would not jump at the chance to come here given our current roster composition.

clevelandjayhawker 10 years, 1 month ago

i dont get it, maybe if you keep posting the same message over and over I will figure it out

jaybate 10 years, 1 month ago


I call them serial aliases, but sometimes its hard to say where the automation ends and the stupidity begins.


Robin Smith 10 years, 1 month ago

The stupidity is certainly continuing right here ^^^

REHawk 10 years, 1 month ago

Dimwit poster. Needs more help than this site can offer.

jaybate 10 years, 1 month ago

Coach still has a needle handy from his bench days. :-)

Robin Smith 10 years, 1 month ago

TheDisclaimerer is a sock profile of a user with multiple accounts.

This profile's only purpose is to add automated spam. I suggest this profile be taken down.

MartyrMangino 10 years, 1 month ago


You are exceedingly self-righteous. You can't be bothered with others' opinions? I gather you aren't a big fan of accountability.Spam=Things Robing disagrees with.

Robin Smith 10 years, 1 month ago

I get it, you're a posse.

You're gonna have to translate that from Oblique. You might also want to familiarize yourself with the definition of spam (hint: not spiced ham).

You question my stance of accountability when I'm the one person on this site who doesn't hide behind a screenname? I'm actually calling for accountability on the part of the bizarrely obsessed macrospammer.

Where's TheDisclaimerer's response? I mainly wanted to see if there was anyone there.

jaybate 10 years, 1 month ago

No, Robin is not exceedingly self righteous.

Robin Smith 10 years, 1 month ago

You're "prodding everyone in your desperate attempt to get some validation again"

Robin Smith 10 years, 1 month ago

dude, I've responded to jb before, sure, I've argued with him, I've reasoned with him, but you're the one who is obsessed. I didn't even read what he wrote today, lol.

seeing the same pointless spam message is just annoying. nobody wants to talk about Turner Gill here. take your football grudges and your projections and just stop harassing people.

MartyrMangino 10 years, 1 month ago

I guess you're pretty special to not have read Jaybate today, but still to comment in agreement with him. lolz.

MartyrMangino 10 years, 1 month ago

If you're going to risk your good name by lying, at least make it a little more difficult to discover.

jaybate 10 years, 1 month ago

Robin Smith does not appear to be lying.

jaybate 10 years, 1 month ago

Many board rats appear not to read jaybate.

jaybate 10 years, 1 month ago

Robin Smith has disagreed with me before.

Robin Smith 10 years, 1 month ago

"Hanging on Jaybate's every word has given you a knack for chimerical conspiracy theories"

this is just hilariously ironic

jaybate 10 years, 1 month ago

Robin Smith is not ever the champion of comment lacking in substance.

jaybate 10 years, 1 month ago

Nor am I ever the champion of comment lacking in substance.

MartyrMangino 10 years, 1 month ago

Jaybate, I am going to flag every one of your posts because I find it offensive that you stand for 9/11 conspiracy theories. A lot of better people than you died that day and it is a disgrace to their memory that you are so well liked by the higher-ups at this website that they allow you to spread those ideas.

jaybate 10 years, 1 month ago


Under the user agreement, I defend your right to suggest that any and all comments made by any alias be removed for any reason consistent with the spirit and intention of the user agreement.

jaybate 10 years, 1 month ago

I, jaybate, have never seen Robin Smith hang on jaybate's every word.

Robin Smith 10 years, 1 month ago

This is epic.

Sounds like we're steering towards the ontology of board posting and the states of mind of board posters.

Robin Smith 10 years, 1 month ago

I don't even know what "something compromising" could be.

Michael Luby 10 years, 1 month ago

I agree, We need a footer. We need Embiid.

jaybate 10 years, 1 month ago

Zach Peters may not be throwing outlet passes this year, or shooting the rock, or even rebounding much with that torn cuff, but at 6-9 240 he could guard a heavy post with one arm. Here is hoping it heals enough to keep him out of a rouge smoking jacket.

yates33333 10 years, 1 month ago

I agree somewhat. Having had a rotator cuff tear as a player I can tell you that it depends on the tear and the surgeon. The rotator cuff is a tendon that helps form a cup and hold the fluid that lubricates the ball joint of the shoulder. Peters is young and healthy which are very important in rehabilitation. A good quality tissue, technical excellence of the surgery, and commitment by the patient to rehab are likewise important. Nevertheless, he will probably not be on a basketball court for about three months, if then. I hope it goes faster but he should not mess with this. Full recovery is essential for an athlete and, I hate to say this, not always achieved. Anyway good luck Zach. If you are willing I think they should red shirt you.

yates33333 10 years, 1 month ago

P.S. mine was botched and in old age I know it.

Michael Luby 10 years, 1 month ago

Crap, when was it said he had a torn cuff? Thats no good. Ive got one and its been reinjured more than once, its taking me months to recover. Granted Im not 19 years old but still, if hes got a torn rotator cuff and he gets surgery, he probly wont be playing this year. Not 100% anyhow

Woody Cragg 10 years, 1 month ago

Some one get me up to speed on Zack? I had not seen copy that is in fact, a tear? Trust me, that's never an easy obstacle to overcome. Few do. Yates is right about the age & surgeon, but most prognoses are that a 70-80% recovery is not achieved in less than a year with a substantial tear. The shoulder performs almost a 360 degree motion range, and after anchoring in the bone with lags, is virtually impossible to recover. It becomes more than just a tendon recovery then. Re-occuring tears are also a high percentage of probability. Have always thought I had a pretty high pain threshold, but this one put alot of things in a different perspective for me. Up to that point I could physically keep up with guys half my age on the job, but no longer. Hell, it still feels shaky to reach sideways out of a car window at the toll booth or bank. They may be holding off on surgery because of the many reasons several of us have posted, but is never good or an easy recovery. My own personal physician has one & he won't have the surgery because of length of the recovery. That would surely mean redshirt for Zach. Damn, I hope he doesn't have a tear. I know these things happen, but he will have to re-learn just how to get out the wallet or tuck in a shirt among other unmentioned menial tasks as well.Good luck young man.

jaybate 10 years, 1 month ago


You've chastened me. Throw him a shirt, Bill.

jaybate 10 years, 1 month ago

Withey thinks Self is fun to play for?

Good to hear.

Hope Roberson, Gordon and Embiid hear this.

Chris Bruning 10 years, 1 month ago

Joel Embiid makes this thee perfect class, and i think we have a real shot of landing him soon!!!! ROCK CHALK JOEL !!!!

yates33333 10 years, 1 month ago

As good as I think Withey will be this year, I am not sure he was ready for the NBA last year. He was too light no matter how good he was at blocking shots in college. Since his position e isn't like a big guard or small forward. He can't come in for the rebound or block. He will have to stay under the hoop and grind for the blocks and I suspect also for most of his shots. I hope he develops an excellent skyhook or something like that, but they aren't easy to develop. I think he will probably become a college level scorer this year, but KU does have a lot of shooting talent. Ellis, Peters, as well as the shooting guards, E.J., and Young. Yes Young. He isn't an orthodox scorer, but he is a scorer when need be. It must be his defense that keeps him on the bench as much as he is. But he is a great player when points are needed. He has a nose for the ball. I really like to watch him play.

jhox 10 years, 1 month ago

Kabongo second? Seriously? I get the athleticism, but where are the basketball skills to go with it? The NBA is big on upside, I get that, but that kid's skills are way under developed. He's light years from being NBA ready. If someone uses a first round pick on him they're nuts, unless he shows very dramatic improvement this year.

KEITHMILES05 10 years, 1 month ago

So, let me get this straight..........the 2007 class was inducted but not 2008?

Robin Smith 10 years, 1 month ago

most HOFs have a 5 year grace period.

Plus, first things first, as they say.

clevelandjayhawker 10 years, 1 month ago

That 2007 class was fun to watch, Julian Wright may have been my favorite player to watch, not becasue he did everything perfect all the time, but because he was high flying, he was a 4 that liked to play point, he would make a pass that blew your mind (sometimes for good sometimes for worse), just a one of a kind player. Always thought he would find his role in the NBA, I still think he might, if he does or doesnt I wish him the best.

Rock Chalk

Bruce Dial 10 years, 1 month ago

PREACH! I agree wholeheartedly about Wright. You just described one of my favorite KU Players of all-time, Nick Bradford. Although Wright left early, he had at least the passing skills (for those of you who scoff, go back and look at the tape, Bradford could deliver a ball), yet Wright was taller and could jump out of the gym. Best wishes to them both.

Robin Smith 10 years, 1 month ago

I will always remember 2007 as the year we should have won it all. We beat Florida in Las Vegas and were the only team in their two year reign to beat that Gators squad in any tournament. We could have been the back-to-back team and on a certain level I think of them that way. Drat! that UCLA team.

HawkKlaw 10 years, 1 month ago

Should've, would've, could've, for sure.

I remember being very disappointed after the Elite Eight loss that year. It was one of those games where KU just didn't have an answer the stars on the opposite team - Afflalo, Collison and Westbrook.

But I agree - we beat the eventual National Champion on a neutral court that season. That was one year KU should have won it all. And I always felt bad for Julian Wright, who left KU after the season only to watch them become National Champions the following year (while he was working through a tough rookie year himself). I remember seeing him in the stands at the game and feeling kinda sorry for him.

Bruce Dial 10 years, 1 month ago

It would have been better to have been a 2-seed that year, with a semi-finals destination near home, than to be the 1-seed and have to play UCLA in their back-yard. That being said, if we would have hit 2/3 of the lay-ups we missed that game, it would have been a different story. Chalk it up to a learning experience that eventually concluded in something really special one year later.

Curtis Stutz 10 years, 1 month ago

We lost that game 'cause we shot like 5 for 50 inside the paint. Don't think their star power had much to do with it, for some crazy reason everyone tried to get all the way to the basket every offensive possession when UCLA just packed the paint with defenders. It was a sad loss to a team KU had significantly more talent than. It was also somewhat of a road game in Cali against UCLA, but just a terrible end to a great season when we just needed Chalmers or Rush to pull up short a few times. Would have been a tough game against UF, but then UF would have lost to Purdue that year had the refs not hooked up Horford all game long.

Tony Bandle 10 years, 1 month ago

I'm trying not to be too cynical, but it seems to me that the main requirement to get into the Kansas Athletics Hall of Fame is that you wore uniform with the word "KANSAS" stitched on it, you played basketball and you won a bunch of games. To me, in many cases, many of the team awardees would fit under the term "recognition", not "fame".

I hate Kentucky as much as any Jayhawk, but the one thing I have to admit I admire, the only banners they hang from the rafters are National Championships [albeit ill-gotten or otherwise].

However, I do like the fact that at Kansas, the NC banners are at least given a singular position of prominence.

Aw heck, I guess there's nothing wrong with showing proof of your legacy with banners for conference titles, Final Fours and Elite Eights. Still, the goal every year for Kansas should be never lose the last game.

86finalfour 10 years, 1 month ago

Actually, if you google "kentucky banners" you'll see that they include runner up and final four in their line of banners.

That being said, I see your point. I don't think KU should include the Helms award as a NC. And like Kentucky, Kansas has dominated their conference so much why even make room for it in the rafters, however, their streak and record Conf titles are noteworthy.

KGphoto 10 years, 1 month ago

Helms is legit to me. Saying the Helms Award isn't legit is like saying there was never a national champion in football until the BCS arrived. They were all MNCs. Mythical National Championships.

That's fine, but if you look at the gold standard for football, Notre Dame, they claim all 11 of their MNCs. What would Notre Dame even be without them? They don't even have conference titles to hang.

86finalfour 10 years, 1 month ago

OK, but why do the other big programs not list Helm's?

KGphoto 10 years, 1 month ago

The NCAA tournament began in 1939, and almost all Helms Champions were the same as the tourney champ for the next 50 or so years, so they hang the tourney banner instead, I guess.

North Carolina hangs the 1924 Helms banner. Stanford claims the 1937 and 1938 Helms championship. Purdue hangs theirs as well I believe. A lot of other Helms Champions prior to 1939 are not bball powers today. Who knows? Maybe teams like Montana St., Washington St., NYU, and all the Ivy League schools DO hang theirs.

Interesting that bball is so opposite from football on this. The regular season means almost nothing toward a shot at the title in bball, but it means everything in football.

Robin Smith 10 years, 1 month ago

For me it comes down to the fact that no other team can claim to be champions that year.There's only one school that can hang banners for '22 and '23 and we're doing it. Everyone else needs to learn how to count. That's 5 banners and they're never coming down.

What happens if 75 years from now some other organization has supplanted the NCAA? Then fans will deride each other saying, "Those titles don't count! Their tournament didn't decide real champs. They didn't even have best-of-3 series then, let alone the best-of-7 Title Week that we know is essential to determining a real champion"

Bruce Dial 10 years, 1 month ago

Couldn't have said it better myself. Not only that, but if we should/would exclude the Helms' titles, then every NCAA football championship won before the draft begins in a year or two should be omitted from history books.

Bruce Dial 10 years, 1 month ago

I meant 'playoff', not 'draft.' Sorry about that.

jaybate 10 years, 1 month ago

I'm with you on this, Oak.

Reindexing always indicates a slide in standards--never a good sign.

clevelandjayhawker 10 years, 1 month ago

I think a giant asterik (sp?) banner would be great next to all their NC's that are sketchy

86finalfour 10 years, 1 month ago

That 2007 team was sick. I really thought we were going to play Florida again in Final Four. All those missed bunnies, ugh. And Afflalo was unconscious late. Hard to believe KU only put up 55 points with all of that talent. Damn UCLA -- don't they Kansas has ever beaten them in the tourney.

jaybate 10 years, 1 month ago



ENCRYPTION: unencrypted, open source text file in "if you want it here it is come and get it but you better hurry cause it may not last"


These upcoming exhibition games vs. ESU and Washburn bore me to tears, so I'm jumping ahead to an SEMSU game that is way more interesting than it may see at first.

~Okie Baller Mafiosi Dickie Nutt (Okie State, '82) revived SEMSU to .500 and a fourth place finish in the 12 team Ohio Valley Conference by his 3rd season, after being S-Canned by Ark State.

~SEMSU is poised to win 20 games this year.

~SEMSU has 4 players between 235 and 250 and 3 of them are 6-8 to 6-9. The 4th player is 6-6 235 guard/forward.

~Compare this size and weight with KU's. SEMSU is actually heavier, and except for Withey, just as tall as KU. Maybe taller taller too, at some positions, given KU's tendency to add a KU Growth Factor to certain bigs.

~SEMSU has a nice blend of seniors, juniors, sophs, and frosh.

~KU has great experience for starters, but then everything is green wood after that.

~SEMSU is now probably as comfortable playing Okie Ball, as KU players, maybe even more so given the large number of new players on KU's roster.

~SEMSU also has a 6-4 200 juco transfer, AJ White, to watch out for.

~Though sharply undermatched in skill and talent with KU, SEMSU has the muscle to muddy up the game with KU and keep it muddied up, if the refs let them.

~Self needs to get his team roughed up before it meets Michigan State and Ratso Izzo 4 days later in Atlanta, GA, or KU players could get badly hurt by MSU.

~Expect Self to signal Nutt to have SEMSU rough up KU the same way Self used to appear to signal Doc Sadler to rough KU up early in conference to get them blooded for the real tough matches to come against top clubs.

~Question: will the refs cooperate? Can't say, but refs seem increasingly willing to let games get muddy, especially if both coaches don't complain.

~On paper it seems impossible for SEMSU to upset KU, but that is always how it seems on paper, when Self sends his team out flat to labor against a Mid Major in order to save its team's peak performance for a following game.

jaybate 10 years, 1 month ago

~The routine is that KU is flat. Its saving its peak performance for the major to follow. Self doesn't tell them to look past the mid major, quite the contrary he lectures them not to. But he doesn't amp up the emotions for the mid major the way he does for the big games. And he doesn't give them a bunch of wrinkles for the mid major. They are supposed to go out and find a way to win one on their own.

~This SEMSU game reveal how good Self thinks this KU is. If he lets them labor without giving them any wrinkles to win, it means he thinks they are pretty good. If he gives them wrinkles to beat a mid major, then we know he thinks the team is not really very strong, or very confident, yet and he doesn't want to risk an L before MSU.

~The recipe for disaster against a midmajor is now a matter of record:

--KU shoots 20% from trey and 50-60% FT;

--KU's bigs get more roughed up than they expect;

--Mid major shoves KU out of its vaunted athleticism into a horizontal game;

--KU cannot dominate the boards because of shoving;

--KU cannot grind it out on the blocks, because of being shoved off the blocks;

--Mid Major shoots well inside and out;

--Mid Major shoots 75-90% at FT line;

--Mid Major opens lead;

--KU labors back by grinding it out inside;

--Mid-major keeps hitting at the end;

--KU does not;


~Self would seem to have no choice but to ask Nutt to rough his team up big time to prepare them for MSU. Self dares not let any of the freshman, or a couple of the starters see MSU without some having some fillings loosened previously. But asking Nutt to do this, coupled with Self having to send KU out flat to save the peak performance for MSU (a must win for RPI rankings), risks setting the conditions of a mid major upset.

~Self's history is unequivocal on these sorts of choices. He will risk the upset to optimize his chances for two wins, instead of going for the sure one against the mid major.

Rock Chalk!

jaybate 10 years, 1 month ago


Richmond and VCU is an interesting example to explore my hypothesis with, but not exactly what I had in mind because Richmond and VCU were pretty close in quality.

First, I will outline the situation I was thinking about, then distinguish your situation, then explore it.

The situation I was considering was a much weaker opponent followed by a much stronger opponent. He sends them out flat against the weaker opponent and lets them "find a way to win it." Then he amps and puts in wrinkles for the stronger opponent.

Examples of this situation arise the first round of each Madness, whenever KU has a high seed, which has been frequently the case in Self's tenure.

This same situation can be reversed. He amps and puts in wrinkles for the stronger opponent, then sends them out flat for the lesser opponent and lets them find a way to win it.

An example of this occurred in the '08 Final Four when KU met UNC in the semis and UNC was much the better team than Memphis. Self amped them to the max and gave them a surprise defensive strategy to help them blow out to an early lead and then try to hang on as a great UNC team came roaring back the second half. KU's team really left it out on the floor against UNC. Self gambled that UNC was the team that it would take a super game to beat and that Memphis was the team his team could hang with and win a close one against with out its A-game. And that was how it worked out. Self got both games of the Finals by betting everything on the UNC game.

But I have no doubt that had they played Memphis in the semis, Self would have gambled that he could get by Memphis in a semi with something less than the team's best, so as to have saved the peak performance for UNC in a final.

Now to your scenario of Richmond and VCU.

The Richmond/VCU situation is one of two teams of similar quality, though VCU seemed to have the better talent and be the far better conditioned team.

What I say happened here is that Self looked at the two teams and said VCU was the lesser team, only by a little, and it ran a Princeton offense, and Self reasoned that his team had learned the secret to beating the Princeton, which was to chase endlessly on defense, double team outside ball screens on defense, and then relentlessly cram the ball inside on offense. In short, a peak performance was not needed. All that was needed was chasing defense that drove the Princeton's field goal percentage, plus inside scoring which drove up KU's FG percentage. So: Self sent them out with out any new wrinkles, and flat.

But what happened was that Richmond played an exceptional game and KU could never separate and so Self had to play his regulars way more than he expected to and this lead a dead-legged team going into the VCU game.

jaybate 10 years, 1 month ago

Self gave KU an amping and some wrinkles against VCU, but VCU had the big load in the middle that was as tireless as their wirey little point guard. And Shaka had his team high as kites after a relatively easy win the day before. And then Shaka added one brilliant wrinkle. He had his team spread it out from the beginning and run exceptionally long cuts from the beginning to the ending. And the combination of Shaka's wrinkle, plus his team's brilliant conditoning, plus KU's dead legs from having to struggle flat against a Princeton offense, killed KU's outside shooting accuracy first, and that forced to play through the bigs who just weren't big enough to muscle that 260 pounder Shaka had inside and finally our big cracked too. KU was upset.

Self's gambling doesn't always work. No system always works. Self gets upset early sometimes. Self gets upset late sometimes. But it works a lot of the time and the result of it working is to get two games, not just one.

And in a season of Saturdy/Monday conference games and three 2-game tournaments comprising the Madness, it is one solid way to approach things, especially when Self's philosophy is that 1/3 of the games you're great, 1/3 of the games you're averge, and 1/3 of the games you stink. He puts a premium on peak performances and trying to have those peak performances when they are needed. And since the can't be had just any time, then he trains his teams to labor through the bad nights and find ways to steal possessions and so steal wins.

At least this is how I see it. I realize a lot of board rats don't think you can set the thermostat on teams, but I played on teams where the coaches could and did, so I figure Self is about a thousand percent better than the coaches I played for and that he probably can. And his teams certainly play as if he does.

Scott Smetana 10 years, 1 month ago

Ostertag, Aldrich, or Withey. Who would you want on your NBA team? I'm thinking Aldrich, but Withey may take his spot after this year....what a sweet free throw stroke.

jaybate 10 years, 1 month ago

Interesting question. When Aldrich was at KU, I would have said Cole. But that was before I understood the KU Growth Factor thing. In the NBA, inside, if you are not some kind of athletic freak of nature, then there is no substitute at all for height. Weight and muscle can be gained. No matter how strong Cole gets, he's still going to be 6-9 going against footers weighing more every night.

Ostertag, though he looked like a doughboy, and often played like one, had the tonnage and the height to be an effective backup for years on end.

Withey seems a better basketball player than Ostertag, especially between the ears, but even crispy creams by the gross don't seem to keep the pounds on Jeff.

Without the tonnage, despite a better game and a better head, I'm not sure Jeff will outlast Ostertag.

Also, Jeff has to develop a good post move. I suspect he has. We haven't seen what it is yet. Last year there was some puffery about a sky hook. Man that would be sweet. But its a very tough shot to become proficient at.

Have to wait and see what Jeff does on the low block, if he's gained enough weight/strength down low to sustain position there yet.

Robin Smith 10 years, 1 month ago

Then what's your agenda in hounding me?

bad_dog 10 years, 1 month ago

If it's still out there, go take a look at wildjayhawk's posting history. Comment after comment filled with misspelled insults tossed at any/everyone. Idiot, stupid idiot, moron, etc., etc.

Seldom posted anything but insults unless it was touting KSUX.

wildjayhawk 10 years, 1 month ago

Jayfart, keep your ignorance to yourself.

Miguel Colón 10 years, 1 month ago

Can someone help me with the numbers? Say BMAC leaves for the NBA, and Embiid and Roberson or Gordon or Randle (I'm saying two of the three) want to sign with KU, how does the scholarship numbers run? Do we have enough, or does someone else have to leave?

soapisurfriend 10 years, 1 month ago

If your scenario plays out (2/3 commit and Mclemore leaves), that would be the scholarship limit and no other player would need to go. Here's the breakdown. There are four seniors (four open scholarships to go with the four recruits bagged now). When Doyle left, it opened a scholarship to which is now being used by Mr. Wesley. He would go back to walk-on status in 2013 and that would open a fifth. Further, if BMac leaves, a sixth would open for the six man class. That's actually how I'm expecting it to happen, but maybe with a transfer instead of Ben leaving.

Steve Gantz 10 years, 1 month ago

Tyler Roberson, could he be the second coming of TRob?

Chris Bruning 10 years, 1 month ago

by the looks of late night Jamari Traylor could very well be the next T-rob, still raw, but chiseled like a statue......he's not as tall as trob but i couldn't believe the shape that young man is in, he's obviously been working his ass off.....

Jack Wilson 10 years, 1 month ago

wissoxfan83 - Roberson is a skinnier dude. And seems more polished as a soon to be freshman. I'd like to find out, though.

Steve Gantz 10 years, 1 month ago

I was really just referring to the similarities in names!

Steve Gantz 10 years, 1 month ago

Does the KU hall of fame have a web page? Do all elite 8 fails make the hall of fame? What's the criteria for induction? Will the team that lost to VMI in the elite 8 also make it? Are there final four teams that didn't make it? So many questions, so few answers.

HawkKlaw 10 years, 1 month ago

Coincidentally, 2007 was also the last year that the font on our jerseys wasn't lame and boring.

RJ King 10 years, 1 month ago

National Championship > boring, lame font

HawkKlaw 10 years, 1 month ago

Boring, lame font = Nothing to do with winning a National Championship

It still bothers me that every time I see photos/videos from that epic year, I also have to see that weak excuse for a font.

"Boring." "Lame." Do those sound like words that accurately describe KU baskebtall?

Priest Fontaine 10 years, 1 month ago

It does seem the bar is being set pretty low for HOF qualifications. At a lot of schools, a team that wins their league and makes an Elite 8 appearance would certainly be commemorated years later by an induction to the school's HOF. At Kansas, it seems like kind of a normal season. Of course we celebrate winning the league, and going to the Elite 8 is a pretty decent accomplishment. But if the bar is set this low then the Kansas HOF is going to have to induct every Kansas team (under the Bill Self era). Maybe the minimum criteria should start at Final Four appearance? Or, a Elite 8 appearance, but undefeated all of regular season?

KGphoto 10 years, 1 month ago

Going to the Elite 8 is good, but I know winning the Big 12 Championship and Big 12 Tournament in the same season is a big factor. We beat Mizzou twice. We also went 33-5. At the time it was tied for the 4th most wins ever at Kansas. We were a #1 seed in the dance, and climbed from #9 to #2 in the final three weeks of the regular season, beating All-World Kevin Durant and Texas twice. Oh, and don't forget we beat Kentucky to get to the Sweet 16, making it a little extra sweet.

None of those things by themselves would do it, but all of them in one year is pretty notable. I think when you are piecing together a story for a HOF inductee, you look at more than the advancement in the dance. The display will surely represent some of these notables and more.

soapisurfriend 10 years, 1 month ago

Last night Frank Mason's MMA team took on traditional power Oak Hill in an exhibition game and Mason continued his great play against higher ranked guys. Mason's unofficial stat line looks like this: 22 points, 11 dimes, and 4 boards, as he outplayed four star guys Nate Britt (NC commit went head to head with Mason at the point) and Troy Williams.

soapisurfriend 10 years, 1 month ago

They actually didn't even ball, the just beat the hell out of each other. Really, really savage, actually.

Jack Wilson 10 years, 1 month ago

Soap: Do you have a link? The link below is all I could find; it's down a bit in the article.

Manhawk 10 years, 1 month ago

I've been reading these boards since last November. THANKS to everyone. It is always enjoyable.

Thought I would interject out of the box. I see starting lineups and recruiting. How about a starting five of posters???? Home from work today so good day to do it.

  1. Point Guard - HEM: The classic was Milton Doyle last summer. Go back and read it. I havent seem someone hit so hard for being right. Arrows from all directions but he hammered it. Good recruiting takes and I liked defense descriptions last season. Too bad MU is gone because his MU smack is way good. Probably the best overall contributor of basketball related information. Can score, pass and be a creater. Gets the conversation going.

  2. Shooting Guard - KonkeyDong: Always quality posts. Konkey seems to be all over recruiting, like Hem. We’ll see how it goes during the regular season. But he always knocks down the shot with good info, great insights. Solid everyday. Maybe a combo guard. But who is Luke Cothrun???

  3. Small Forward - Oakville: The guy who is known for his lists makes me want to read the posts each day. Best though during basketball season. He can play inside and out. Never seem him off target. The best scoring option, night in and night out. Only problem is he lives in Mizzery. But very good MU smack. So we can give him a pass for living there..

  4. Power Forward - BigManU: Tough one hear because he doesnt post as much. But during basketball season his posts are very good and to the point. Creative also. I like his opinions but just wish he posted more. Be more aggressive!!

  5. Center - Jaybate: Would have been the point guard but tends to go into the sewer with others who insult. Perfect for playing in the post (get that .. doing the dirty work inside?). Obviously the most long winded one here and at times dominates the board. So my guess is he'd dominate the boards?? But maybe the top poster. Seems to have a real broad base of knowledge that gets lost on many board rats as he would say. Me included I must admit. But I really like his posts. He is the enforcer inside, swatting away the bad stuff and jammin it home.

Sixth Man

  1. Ralster: Please post more often too!! His thoughts always seem to register with me. He could be a starter, really if BigManu falters here. Seems like he has good perspective. And is a good conversation starter.

There you go! Just my random thoughts on a cloudy day. Really enjoy everything here.

KGphoto 10 years, 1 month ago

Best New Recruit - Manhawk: Talk about a guy who should post more. That was awesome!

Tony Bandle 10 years, 1 month ago

Let me expand on KGPhoto....Manhawk, Glue Guy. manages to balance out a rotation of heavyweight posters with humor, class and no mention of Okie Ball or Morningstar!!

PS Thanks for the pass on the Missouri live in thing. My 90 year old dad is still kicking strong in St.Louis. I owe him, big time......he worked three jobs to make sure that none of his sons went to Misery!! [three went Kansas]

Tony Bandle 10 years, 1 month ago

PS There were five of us, other two did Iowa State and SIU Carbondale.

KGphoto 10 years, 1 month ago

Sweet! Honored to be the Glue Guy on this team. Put me in coach!

And Oak, your dad is a great, great man.

RJ King 10 years, 1 month ago

OK then, let's play! : Alohahawk hosts the game as a Maui "Non-Classic." BPSkelly and Hieronymous2012 negotiate the TV rights.

shredks and Boulderhawk skirmish kennethst and calijhawk over the weather report. 1timbob is in the stands watching, but professes not to care.

HawkKlaw, Dagger108, Jhawk92, rockchalk1990, and Robin Smith (the real Robin Smith) are in stripes. Drgnslayr, yates33333, raprichard, and REHawk provide commentary.

At the opening tip, Ahpersecoachingexperience is first to touch the ball, but immediately kicks it out of bounds. wildjayhawk replaces and takes on JayBate, but gets slapped with five technicals in the first quarter. IlBastardo enters and hits the boards hard.

Guarding HEM at Point is bennybob. Trash talk features HEM, "Yo, what's YOUR ranking??" and bob, "I don't like the way you assembled your team."

Konkey, in the zone as usual, fires up troll bombs over DRsmith, UKALLDay, hawkcat, hawksquawk, Manginohrh001z, and BBall2012. Globaljaybird, mikehawk, and Brak spell Konkey when he cools off.

Oakville goes up against his Nightmare. The Nightmare disappears on both end of the court. No one cares. Nuleafjhawk comes off the bench and this quirky matchup becomes entertaining. Oakville eventually becomes distracted by cheerleaders and gives ten reasons why he needs a time out.

BigManU provides striking contrast to screaming, incoherent KUDUDE. (the DUDE leaves BigMan to play help defense for CAPS LOCK.)

Jaybate takes the game's final 17 shots, sending it into triple overtime. Game ends when TexasHawk44 fires from long range.

wissoxfan83 will order the trophies

Brianna Zaleski 10 years, 1 month ago

This was awesome, Bayhawk. Had me in stitches. Talk about a guy who knows the posters!

Steve Gantz 10 years, 1 month ago

Now I played one year of very small college hoops and scored two points, so I deserve some playing time. But I will get the trophies so here goes:

Most Valuable Poster BrooksMD for getting me tickets to the NC game last year, my first live Jayhawk action since I graduated in '88.

Most Valuable Poser That MissouriCat guy last year who couldn't stop running his mouth.

Comeback poster of the year Nuleafhawk (I hope I got that right) for his great and witty comebacks.

Coach of the year Ralster, always seems to be offering advice on who should play and where.

AFHouse Scholar Award HEM for his intellectualisms.

Lawrence Optimist club to AlohaHawk for his optimism

Lawrence Pessimist club to manginorholz for his inspiring more negative replies than anyone else.

The I'm scared award to non other than Stupidmichael.

The where have they gone award to ICthehawks and 100.

The we're all jealous of where you live award to Alohahawk.

The I'm jealous of where you live award to any fan living in Wisconsin or Chicago

And finally, the KUSports was made for him, Al Gore invented the internet for him, Bill Gates invented Microsoft for him, the Egyptians invented paper for him writing award to Jaybate, any explanation needed?

6th men of the year to all of the rest of you who I forgot, developed temporary amnesia on and otherwise failed to find a trophy for even though kids are getting trophies just for being on the team award.

Ron Franklin 10 years, 1 month ago

all this up here--probably my all time favorite thread :) fun stuff dudes!

Curtis Stutz 10 years, 1 month ago

Just curious 'cause a lot of folks have continued to think BMac is much more likely to return after this season than go pro. Obviously Chad Ford disagrees (okay absolutely no shame in disagreeing with an ESPN persona) but I just think people that saw the Mason commit as a negative have to see there is a good chance Self still has 2 scholarships to work with. Certainly we'd love to see both of these filled by big men. kD has stated repeatedly he's big on Cothron, Randle would be a huge boost for next season, Embiid would be a good pickup, Roberson (I still can't see Ellis and Roberson starting side by side), bottom line picking up a guy like Cothron or Randle expected to contribute immediately and then a guy like Embiid that can develop for a couple years would basically take care of recruiting for a few years. Then you still have to consider that unless KU has an early entry next year there are no scholarships available for the class of 2014. In my mind if say Selden leaves after one year or Randle comes and leaves after one year, having just one scholarship available could help Self recruit another big time recruit from the class of 2014. A top recruit like Dakari Johnson would have to love being the only incoming freshman right? Basically, if KU is going to have any OAD's, next year is a good year to have them 'cause it will help redistribute those scholarships to 2014, so I'd love to get Randle or Gordon this year.

Tony Bandle 10 years, 1 month ago

The road to Allen runs both ways...don't be surprised by a transfer or two by 2014!!

86Jayhawk 10 years, 1 month ago

I agree. With all of the incoming talent and so many big names left on the board, I could see Rio and Lucas being possible transfers. I am hopeful Rio has the skill set to become a rotation guy in years to come, but I am not sold on Lucas.

Rob Bedford III 10 years, 1 month ago

If Lucas spent as much time in the gym working on his game as he spends on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter he would be POY.

Curtis Stutz 10 years, 1 month ago

No doubt Oak, and so far I have no reason to abandon my opinion that it's still a great positive in transfers' lives to have played/practiced at KU for a year or two (few months for Doyle) with the coaches/staff/players. Definitely don't want to suggest that if KU picks up 2 more after a BMac NBA trip there will be 0 schollies available for 2014, just not such a bad thing to have a couple OAD's right about now to keep some available. I'll say that KU has had several guys transfer out that I would have just assumed kept around like Galindo for instance. You have to pay a price to keep those guys in school, but almost every guy Self offers a scholarship to are going to be able to contribute after 2-3 years on the team.

jayhawks1009 10 years, 1 month ago

Calling it right now, 2 of our freshmen this year leave. Peters, Ellis, White, Rio stay. It matters who is third in the Lucas, Peters, and Traylor battle. From what I hear, Peters has been very good. And whoever wins between Lucas and Traylor will be transferring after this season. Assuming BMac leaves and Wesley going back on walk-on status, We will have more scholarships available. I believe we should take on a OAD center, (Randle, or Gordon though it seems unlikely we will get either) or developmental center like Embiid and start focusing on the 2014 class because it isn't as stacked as the 2013 class and has limited talent at the top. (there are only 21 left in the rivals 100 (an unprecedented number for October)) so we can get a good start there and potentially if Wiggins reclassifies steal the number one class from Calipari.

Jack Wilson 10 years, 1 month ago

jayhawks1009: I'm curious as to why you would think Adams is a lock to stay. To me .. numbers-wise .. he seems like the biggest transfer risk. I had assumed we'd go three perimeter guys, and 2 post guys in this class. With 4 perimeter guys, that creates a squeeze. Also, I mentioned this the other day as a wild card on transfer possibilities. What happens if Tharpe flops? Could he go? How does Adams stay if Tharpe, Frankamp, Selden, Greene, McLemore are ahead of him, and Mason is there too? Talk about no chance in heck of playing.

I think now it's Tharpe vs. Adams for a scholarship. Weird things can happen. Could Adams outplay Tharpe? Very doubtful, particularly since Tharpe is a better ballhandler. We'll see. But that's how it's shaping up.

konkey - although Traylor seems unlikely since he has used a redshirt season, he could of course go D-II; or go to Juco for a year and come back to D-I for two more seasons. Not out of the realm of possibility, particularly if Lucas and Peters are better (and if we land a top 50, three year big). Better than rotting on the bench. But what's fun is they all can prove themselves when it counts.

Curtis Stutz 10 years, 1 month ago

Any big man transferring out would have to be contingent on who else KU picks up in this class for the most part right? I mean if Randle, Lawrence, Roberson, Embiid signs it's one thing, if nobody of that caliber does it's no stretch to see them all stay. Anybody could get frustrated based on playing time/development in practice and decide to leave, but that seems unlikely for Traylor if he practiced as well as Self suggests against TRob last season. I mean it's not like Self to talk up a guy for no reason. The only way I see Peters leaving is if the injury is a real problem. Sounds like everybody handled boot camp pretty well which is a good sign. If you're Lucas you're maybe the biggest body around coming into next year which has to make you think you'll get some PT. So until a good big man is recruited, no reason for anyone to think about leaving. Depending on that big it could vary, OAD Randle might not scare a young guy 'cause he can redshirt or figure on PT in another year. If the 2014 class isn't as talented that's again another reason for these guys to think with a big head start they can earn PT their junior seasons.

Only way I see Tharpe transferring is 'Rio taking him on the depth chart this year. When you look at the guard situation it's pretty interesting that Mason chose KU with the hurdles ahead of him for PT. I have no reason to doubt him, or 'Rio for that matter, but you can't discount the competition between those 2. Some of it will come down to what the players had expected for themselves in college.

So in a perfect world Traylor, Peters, Lucas, White, Tharpe and 'Rio all look like viable starters by the end of the season, Randle picks KU and starts alongside Tharpe, Selden, Ellis and Peters; BMac went lottery after leading KU in scoring en route to the NC; 2nd team consists of Frankamp, 'Rio, White, Traylor and Lucas. Greene, Embiid, Wesley and Mason come along for the ride back to the FF with Greene getting some minutes.

Worst case nobody else signs, Lucas, Tharpe and 'Rio don't come around, Peters never recovers from shoulder injury, White's defense never picks up, KU doesn't make the FF but BMac still leaves, Self is forced to play Frankamp, Selden, Greene, Ellis and Traylor/Wesley. Still a fun squad with 4 top30 recruits in the starting lineup.

Alex Peekeaton 10 years, 1 month ago

Adding Wiggins to KU (which is .001% happening) still wouldn't over take Kentucky's class of Twins, Young, and Lee.

Priest Fontaine 10 years, 1 month ago

If anyone transfers it will be Rio. Too many stud guards coming in and White is already out playing him. I also think B-Mac stays another year. I think Lucas will stay. The injury to Peters helped to ensure that he gets enough of a taste of the spotlight to stick it out. Embiid plus either Randle or Gordon is what I'm praying for.

Justin Diederich 10 years, 1 month ago

I don't see any way Rio transfers! He loves KU and I am pretty sure Self loves his game. Thats why he is being so hard on him right now. I see Rio getting more playing time by the end of the year than Tharpe! Lucas is a project that will work hard and stick it out. Pretty sure Self will convince him like he did Relaford that it will pay off!

Curtis Stutz 10 years, 1 month ago

I'm sure Self is pushing him 'cause he knows he can be good, but also because he better get good quick if he wants to play on this team. A redshirt season wouldn't be out of the question next year depending on Self's vision for Selden on the team. Also not out of the realm of possibility that he outplays Tharpe by the end of the year as you said and Tharpe transfers out, but I think we're all rooting for Tharpe to step up and be a go to guy off the bench at point this season.

RJ King 10 years, 1 month ago

Only 21 left in the rivals 100 (an unprecedented number for October).

Is this becoming a trend? Or is it is just because 2013 is such a stacked class? If the pattern continues, it could affect any coach who has multiple potential and undecided NBA players on the roster. Coaches will be scrambling for the remaining talent. The further a team goes in the tournament, the longer it delays spring recruiting.Yes?

Curtis Stutz 10 years, 1 month ago

Guess I didn't get my comment to this posted, so here's a partial. Don't know if those rule changes about earlier official visits and contact from coaches had an effect on this class but it would appear that way. Also a lot of recruits staying close to home this year it would seem, makes you wonder if that made decisions easier/quicker.

Helen Gross 10 years, 1 month ago

There is a basketball game listed as American. What and who are they?

Steve Gantz 10 years, 1 month ago

It's a university, I think it's in the DC area.

Miguel Colón 10 years, 1 month ago

Everyone says Rio leaves, what if Rio outplays Tharpe and makes the rotation? Mason is not a lock to be in the rotation this year, and if he game is like D Wade, that could really help us at the point, being that he is a taller guard.

Bruce Dial 10 years, 1 month ago

I remember when the '88 team was inducted into the KU HOF. It included Steve Pritchard, Danny Manning, Archie Marshall, and Brady Morningstar, among others.

Bruce Dial 10 years, 1 month ago

Totally blew my own joke by typing "Steve" instead of "Kevin." What a waste.

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