Monday, October 8, 2012

Sherron II? Collins-like guard Frank Mason picks KU

Petersburg guard Frank Mason (15) attempts a layup in this file photo from March 9 at the Siegel Center in Richmond, Va. Mason orally committed to Kansas University on Monday.

Petersburg guard Frank Mason (15) attempts a layup in this file photo from March 9 at the Siegel Center in Richmond, Va. Mason orally committed to Kansas University on Monday.



Petersburg guard Frank Mason (15) attempts a layup in this file photo from March 9 at the Siegel Center in Richmond, Va. Mason orally committed to Kansas University on Monday.

Virginia native Frank Mason, who cited Kansas University’s tradition in basketball as one reason for orally committing to the Jayhawks, hopes his college career mirrors one of his all-time KU favorites.

“I think I can do as well as Sherron did at KU. I do,” said Mason, a 5-foot-11, 180-pounder from Massanutten Military Academy in Woodstock, Va., who has been compared physically to former KU great Sherron Collins.

“I’m ready to come in and be point guard on a national championship team,” Mason added in a phone interview.

Mason, who announced for the Jayhawks on Monday over Virginia Tech, South Carolina, Providence, Seton Hall and Rutgers, averaged 25 points a game his senior year at Petersburg (Va.) High. He signed a letter-of-intent with Towson University last November, but failed to qualify academically, so he headed to military school for this school year to work on his academics.

His new coach mentioned the same familiar name when asked if Mason reminds him of any other player.

“He has that stocky strong build like Sherron Collins,” said Chad Myers, head coach at Massanutten who previously worked on the basketball staff at Radford University. “I don’t know if he shoots it as well from deep, but he might be a little bit quicker even. He’s fast with the ball and really a good defender. With his size and stature, that’s one of the guys who comes to mind.”

Collins was a top-20 national recruit, while Mason currently is ranked No. 131 in the Class of 2013 by

“I think he is very underrated. That’s my honest opinion,” Myers said. “He had a great summer (playing for future KU teammate Andrew White III’s Team Loaded AAU squad). I thought he was the best point guard on the floor pretty much every game he went out there. He’s very, very fast and can get pretty much anywhere he needs to get on the floor. He’s a lights-out shooter but can also get to the rim and make shots. He can put up points in bunches and put up points in different ways. He’s a true point guard, one of those guys that can set up and make everybody better on the floor. He actually makes all the right plays and right decisions.

“I think the ratings will change, but I think (because of rankings) the kid has a little chip on his shoulder. He’s not worried about the rankings, but he’s going to go out and prove to everybody he’s pretty good, which I like in him. He uses that to motivate himself a little bit.”

Mason, who was offered a scholarship by KU in July shortly after he exploded for 50 points in an AAU game, believes he can play with the best.

“I don’t care about rankings,” he said. “I work hard every day. I get in the gym whenever I can to work on my game. As point guard, I try to get my teammates involved. I attack the rim and knock down the jumper and feel I can guard the other team’s point guard.”

Mason, who visited KU last weekend, returned to Virginia to speak with his parents before gobbling up Bill Self’s scholarship offer.

“I chose KU because of its tradition, coach (Bill) Self’s winning percentage and the type of players they have there,” Mason said. “I want to align myself with players of that ability and character. They are all the type of people I want to be around.

“It’s a great program, from academics to basketball. I talked with the players a lot and knew it was the right place for me. It’s a great program. They’ve won a lot of Big 12 championships, made a lot of Final Four appearances and have multiple national championships. It’s a dream come true.”

He’s looking forward to teaming with White, a fellow Virginia native.

“We are very close. We play summer ball together,” Mason said. “Andrew is a great kid on and off the court. He can shoot, attack and finish.”

Mason’s military school coach says he likes what he’s seen in Mason the student as well as the player.

“Obviously we are a military school here. He’s great in the (daily) formations and those types of things, which obviously is a change for a lot of people,” Myers said. “He’s a great kid, been great to coach here, competing every day trying to get the best out of himself and his teammates.”

Recruiting services list Mason as 5-foot-11, while the Richmond Times-Dispatch has him at 6-1.

Mason tells the Richmond paper he will take the SAT exam on Nov. 3.

KU, which has two remaining scholarships to give, has received oral commitments from No. 22-ranked Brannen Greene, 6-7 from Tift County (Ga.) High, and No. 28 Conner Frankamp, 6-foot from Wichita North. KU earlier missed out on point guards Anthony Barber (North Carolina State), Chris Jones (Louisville) and Demetrius Jackson (Notre Dame). KU is recruiting point guard Roddy Peters, 6-4 from Suitland High in District Heights, Md., who will visit on Oct. 19. He’s ranked No. 39 in the country.

Shepherd picks TCU: No. 43-rated Karviar Shepherd, a 6-10 senior from Prime Prep Academy in Dallas, on Monday orally committed to TCU, reports. He chose the Horned Frogs over KU, Texas A&M;, Texas and Oklahoma. He had previously scheduled a visit for Friday’s Late Night in the Phog.


Mike Rotchurtz 9 years, 7 months ago

Just like Sherron? We can hope. Wouldn't mind still getting Peters, but happy to have Mason on board.

Michael Bratisax 9 years, 7 months ago

They are both 5'11 guards so yeah, he should do at least as well as Sherron did.

Michael Sillman 9 years, 7 months ago

This kid seems like a great addition. Right now we seem to have a lot of tweeners and shooting guards. Adding a true point guard with a great handle was critical as evidenced by Self's recruiting comments. I love that picture of Mason going to the hoop. It does remind me of Collins.

ahpersecoachingexperience 9 years, 7 months ago

Everytime I post on a GB article it gets deleted.

Just watch.

Doug Cramer 9 years, 7 months ago

We need another 6 ft 10 big from this class.

Steve Gantz 9 years, 7 months ago

Pathetic? A HS kid chooses a school that is near home to play basketball and that's pathetic?

Jack Wilson 9 years, 7 months ago

+1 .. kids make decisions for a lot of reasons. And being close to home is certainly as valid a reason as any.

texashawk10 9 years, 7 months ago

I don't know the financial situation of Shepherd's parents, but I do know that parents enjoy watching their kids play as often as possible and if a kid goes halfway across the country, his parents might make it to a handful of games throughout his entire career. Staying close to home at TCU, Shepherd's parents will be able to see him 15-20 times a year depending on how many home games TCU plays in a year and if that is something that was truly important to Shepherd, then more power to him.

Steve Gantz 9 years, 7 months ago

Well you call a kid, remember he's in High School, pathetic for choosing a school close to home. That's pathetic.

Michael Bratisax 9 years, 7 months ago

Unfortunately, 2 of the best in state players have left for UK and Duke.

daytonahawk2 9 years, 7 months ago

I'd rather Shepherd came to KU, but I'm happy TCU is picking up good recruits. We need them to be good for conference strength of schedule.

duanep5ku 9 years, 7 months ago

Welcome to Kansas Frank, I hope you can be as good as Sherron Collins and if you are great, but just be the best Frank you can be first. The biggest thing is being a solid ball hander with the ball and Rivals has you listed as an outstanding ball handle,so great. I hope your also a good free throw shooter as well. The biggest thing you need for seeing court time. try to study Kansas this year and Bill Self loves defense, so if you can defend you will get minutes.

Frank best of luck this year and once again welcome to Kansas.

texashawk10 9 years, 7 months ago

Sherron Collins came in and was a major factor immediately on a team loaded with fellow 5 star players. Frank Mason will be lucky to crack the rotation of a back court that will feature a bunch of 4 star kids. Frank Mason is an insurance policy just like Milton Doyle was and hopefully Self will land a top 30 2014 PG and Mason will transfer out. You can sugarcoat the situation with "Trust in Self" but at the end of the day, the reason KU got as far as they did last year was because the starting was one of the best starting 5 in the nation. Tyshawn and Releford were the only two players who weren't top 40 players coming out of high school. Withey was the 36th ranked player, T-Rob was 31st, and EJ was 24th. KU probably could've won the title last year if they had high quality players coming off the bench like they had in years past. A weak bench is going to be KU's biggest weakness again this year and that's the biggest problem with bringing in these lower ranked players is that they take longer to get to the point where they're ready to contribute in a significant way which makes the lack of quality depth a major concern and unless Bill Self lands a couple of top 50 recruits with the remaining two scholarships, KU's depth in 2013 and beyond is going to just as bad.

Robin Smith 9 years, 7 months ago

of course had Terrence Jones and Doron Lamb been in different uniforms it would have made a huge difference, especially Lamb.

(they'd been key recruiting targets for us)

VancouverHawk 9 years, 7 months ago

We were also Harrison Barnes second or third choice - that one hurt especially because he did stick around college for two years and was from the area.

BringBackMark 9 years, 7 months ago

Let's see, Josh Selby was top ten, and Xavier Henry was top ten..... I hope Bill is as tired of chasing those players only to lose them once they can spell KU. It is great seeing 4 year players in championship games. I LOVE that!

Jack Wilson 9 years, 7 months ago

But you are missing the players in the middle. The top 50 guys that will stay. There is a big difference between #31 and #131.

And you aren't paying attention to recruiting. Self is chasing the one and done possibilities, right? Parker and Randle to name two.

Further, it doesn't have to be 4 year players .. it can be 3 year players. Players that come, are not presumed NBA players, but have high talent, and develop into the type of player that leaves after their junior season because they really are that good because of what they've done in college (See TRob, Marcus, Markieff)

HawkKlaw 9 years, 7 months ago

Actually, there isn't as big of a difference between the #31 and the #131 as you would expect. said so themselves. I believe the exact quote was that there wasn't much of a difference between #50 and #150, but you get the gist.

I'm not saying it wouldn't be great to land the #31 ranked recruit. I'm just saying don't rule out Mason as a good player just because he's ranked at #131.

texashawk10 9 years, 7 months ago

T-Rob was the 31st ranked player in his class. I realize different positions, but Frank Mason does not have near the ceiling that T-Rob did. There is a huge difference between 31 and 131. The 31st ranked player is going to be a very highly ranked 4 star player ready to play immediately at a school like KU. The 131st ranked player is going to be a mid level 3 star player who won't play immediately at a school like KU.

Ryan Knuth 9 years, 7 months ago

I also remember KU not even making the final four with loads of talent on their team. Self took us all the way to the NC game with those 5 guys and a weak bench. The year before that... a team with high profile recruits such as the Morris', EJ, Tyshawn, Withey, T-Rob, Releford, & Selby we lost in the Elite 8... the year before with some of those guys not here, but talented players such as Xavier, Sherron and Aldrich we lost in the 2nd round.

I know we won the NC in 2008 with a bunch of high profile recruits, but we also didn't succeed that well in the tourney with high profile recruits either.

HawkKlaw 9 years, 7 months ago


Analyze the numbers all you want, but all that matters is that Bill Self is still the coach at Kansas and he will find a way to win with whoever chooses to play at KU.

jaybate 9 years, 7 months ago

HawkKlod, that is one of your most empty headed remarks yet. :-)

kureader 9 years, 7 months ago

HawkKlaw was simply expressing his confidence in Coach Self. That's not an "empty headed remark".

Did you skip your medication again?

texashawk10 9 years, 7 months ago

I know this may sound weird, but I would much rather have a team that has quality depth that can sustain an injury or two. There is a lot more that goes into how deep a team goes into the tournament than just the pure talent on a team.

kellerman411 9 years, 7 months ago

Even Trav and Tyshawn were highly recruited... Easily in the top 100

texashawk10 9 years, 7 months ago

Releford and Taylor were both in the 70's in the 2008 class.

jayhawker97 9 years, 7 months ago

he looks like a true PG, indeed. another project for KU's coaching team. that's why they're the best in what they do! welcome home, mr. Mason!

Karen Holmes 9 years, 7 months ago

Welcome Mr. Mason to a tradition rich basketball school. You will learn so much from Coach Self. Rock Chalk

mikehawk 9 years, 7 months ago

Bring that low rating and chip on your shoulder with you. Bill Self loves players who are leaders, who bring attitude on the court, and can guard people.

Mel Clare 9 years, 7 months ago

Well...........thought on this overnight. Most are right and I will agree that I would rather have these lower ranked kids who feel slighted in thier rankings and have something to prove than ANY one OAD!!!!!!!!!!!! 3 or 4 years at KU is alot better the way Self teaches and puts together his teams. Most teams will have one or maybe two 6'9 or bigger.............what do we have???? FIVE????? Is this right? Yes, we have a couple of smallish guys coming in, Frankamp, Tharpe(here) and this kid..............but EVERYONE else is over 6'3! Adams is smallest at 6'3 I think...............young, energetic, tall..........should be a fun season!

Benz Junque 9 years, 7 months ago

Sniper60, Naadir Tharpe is one of those lower rated PG recruits who feels slighted by his ranking and has something to prove. How's that working out for Kansas?

Hats off to the kid, I certainly welcome him to the program, but Self is likely not done recruiting PGs any time soon. Hopefully Mason will prove me wrong, but there aren't a lot of 5'11" recruits outside of the Top 100 winning national titles.

Mel Clare 9 years, 7 months ago

Tharepe was a FRESHMAN last year and had Taylor and EJ in front of him, This kid will now have EJ, Tharpe AND Adams probably in front of him! Depth was an issue last year................even though we are heavy on freshman and Traylor and McClemore have yet to play........we at least have depth with bigs and swings and points now................If you looked at the other article..Self has landed as many McD's as Williams in as many years.............just saying we dont get them all..............

AsadZ 9 years, 7 months ago

Collins was a McDonald American. How can people compare Mason to Collins. This does not make sense to me.

Every HS coack talks great about their kids. That's what they should do. I recall reading a post where Doyle shooting touch was being compared to Wade.

I agree 100% with texashawk. HCBS has said that he needs to recruit a PG to repalce EJ. He is not comfortable with Tharpe and unsure about development of Adams. This is an insurance recruit in case we strike out on all top PG targets.

Having said that I wish nothing but best of luck to Mason and hope that he has a great career at KU.

Ryan Knuth 9 years, 7 months ago

Maybe he meant Sherron Collins now... not 2006.

adamjhwkfan 9 years, 7 months ago

I take offense to the stocky quote! I'm 6'0 180 (so just a little taller than Mason).. and I am NOWHERE near stocky. So, not sure how stocky comes into play... Anyhow, welcome Mason, and here's to a hopefully great 4 years at the University of Kansas! RCJH!!

Robin Smith 9 years, 7 months ago

It was the coach talking and he doesn't know what he's talking about. He meant he is strong.

180 is 30 pounds less than Sherron

John Boyle 9 years, 7 months ago

He probably is stocky at 180 because he is probably only 5'9"

Steve Gantz 9 years, 7 months ago

Can you knock down the three and deliver 5 dimes a game?

Michael Johnson 9 years, 7 months ago

everyone puts too much stock in these ratings. 131st is still very good. just look at the ncaa tourney and all the great players. many aren't ranked at all. and i agree with adamj... he doesn't look stocky to me. I'd say collins had 25-30 lbs on mason.

Robert Brock 9 years, 7 months ago

Greene and Frankamp may turn out to be the only two players we get out of this class.

Robert Brock 9 years, 7 months ago

The only real difference-maker on the board now is Randle. And he is a tough get.

Allan Olson 9 years, 7 months ago

the difference maker is coach and his staff, and putting together the compatible pieces for a championship team

Ron Franklin 9 years, 7 months ago

Mason-if you really want us to consider you in the same class as Sherron, you must first do a few things: 1. Eat 35 big macs and put weight on that "scrawny" frame. 2. Inject your veins with ice. 3. Toughen up and be willing to jump into the paint with the beasts ( even when Ill-advised) 4. Cut your heart out and leave it in the center of Naismith court after 4 years of production.

John Boyle 9 years, 7 months ago

I actually hope he is better than Collins. I felt Collins was overrated his junior and senior years. He was a pretty average player his senior year. No consistency on his shot at all.

HawkKlaw 9 years, 7 months ago

You're talking about Sherron's senior year at KU? He was much better than average. In fact, he was the only player on the roster to actually show up to some of those games. He single-handedly won a lot of games his junior and senior years.

JHawk06 9 years, 7 months ago

I am happy about the pickup. Glad to have you aboard Frank! Has the right attitude, can defend and has great handles (even according to rivals)..

So whether you believe this is an 'insurance policy' or not he will already do more than some OAD's

BringtheRuckus 9 years, 7 months ago

I think its possible that HCBS will sell Selden on the possibility of playing significant minutes as a point forward. I know he's listed as a SF, but he's got great vision, he's big, and he can break people down of the dribble. I'd love to see him bringing the ball up the court next year; he's at the top of my wish list for the remaining recruits.

Tony Bandle 9 years, 7 months ago

drg.....I'm totally onboard with you on Wayne, In fact If I was forced to only pick one, I would have picked Selden over Shephard in a heartbeat.

Jack Wilson 9 years, 7 months ago

I dreaded looking at this website today. I knew what I'd see. I usually try not to be critical of articles here .. I guess I'm as critical of the article as I am the headline. And I doubt Bedore writes his headline. He might.

But this is a ridiculous headline and the premise of the article .. comparing Mason to Collins .. makes a mockery of common sense. To lead with a quote from this kid comparing himself to Collins is a disservice to all. It is asinine. It insults the reader and anyone who knows anything about basketball. It might not insult (respectfully) the mikehawks, the TXChalkers, and other giddy, anything is ok if it has KU on it, fans. But anyone who actually follows the game, it is a joke.

Just as some folks say, don't criticize the kid until you see him play at KU, it is even more valid to suggest to avoid the ridiculous comparisons until he actually does something against real competition.

Sherron Collins was a warrior. He was a tank. He led KU to a National Championship his sophomore season. He could handle the ball. He could drive. He could bomb the three. He shut down D-Rose in the 2nd half in San Antonio. He was a five star player. 21st ranked in the nation. He earned his stripes under fire during four years of college at KU.

This kid commits and the next day we're comparing him to Sherron Collins? "Sherron II." Ugh.

And this article has it all. The quotes from the high school coach about how great of player the kid is. The "he should be ranked higher" propoganda. The "chip on the shoulder" baloney. The obligatory "I don't care about rankings" stuff. All we need is a Dwayne Wade comparison .. but we're just a bit lower on the food chain .. we have the Collins comparison. Everything we usually get when we underachieve in recruiting.

If you want to learn about this kid, research it. Spend some time reading. Start with the ESPN scouting report, go to Rivals, go to the other sites, look at the total picture here. Use the youtube video as a supplement. Understand the rankings. Understand that he had committed to Towson (akin to Florida International). Understand that coach Self does know what he's doing, and why he was coach Self's appx, 6th or 7th PG choice. Understand that if Barber would have committed the only times you would have heard Frank Mason's name would have beene 1) when you accidentally looked back at May or June articles here and saw that he was on Self's radar, and 2) and when he hit a fall away shot for Rutgers in the 2014 Big East tourney to beat Seton Hall in the opening round.


Michael Gentemann 9 years, 7 months ago

HEM Sherron was all that you said, except, he did not shut down D. Rose in the second half. Rose put up 15 in the second half.

Michael Bratisax 9 years, 7 months ago

Hey..I got my Masters Degree At Florida International! Also, Carlos Arroyo and Raja Bell played ball at FIU.

But yes, the comparison is ridiculous other than they are both 5'11 and are both guards. That's it in toto!

And if I remember correctly, Tharpe was ranked somewhere in the 90s. So let's not compare him to Russell Rob or any other top 50 player who struggled in their first year.

Jack Wilson 9 years, 7 months ago


What you'll find is a kid who is not "fast", and is not a high level "athlete". You'll find a kid that has an unorthodox shot, shooting a set shot. You'll find a kid that has a number of question marks for a high D-I athlete .. you'll find .. you guessed it .. the #131 player. That's what #131 players are. More question marks. Not as polished. Not immediate impact.

As I (and others) suggested with Doyle, and Lindsay, and Traylor, and Anderson .. can we just accept this guy for what he is?

What is he? Quite simply, he is Self's 6th choice at best. He's insurance. He's a developmental player. He's a guy that if he develops, could be a rotation guy as early as his sophomore year but most likely no earlier than his junior year. He's a guy that is a OAF candidate, or a later transfer. He is a guy that coach Self, in the 2014 class, will recruit to improve upon. But we know there is a chance he'll be a 13.3%er .. see Robin Smith's analysis on 100 - 150 players that exceeded rankings. That could happen.

The Mason commit is what it is. It is not reason for excitement. If you're excited, you're looking for a reason to get excited. At Towson, yes. At Missouri, maybe. At KU, no. No excitement. That is NO in all caps.

Let's see who else we get in this class. And most of all, let's see how Mason develops before comparing the #131 player in 2013 to perhaps one of the greatest guards in KU history. That bar is a bit too high on day 2 of the Frank Mason era at KU


Steve Kubler 9 years, 7 months ago

I fear you are preaching to the deaf but I agree overall. He is what he is and all the gloss heaped on him does not change the fact. Has anyone seen his point guard ranking? I've missed that somewhere along the way and would like to know how he stacks up against his peers.

I do see him as a reasonable signing in that the team has a need for point guard depth down the road.. He appears to have more talent than Doyle but that is based off of a few youtube videos and AAU stats and not to be considered reliable. I do disagree on saying he's not fast but would question if he is fast enough.

Ask me in the middle of his sophomore season and I'll let you know what kind of D1 player he is. Anytime before that there is not going to be enough information to tell.

MartyrMangino 9 years, 7 months ago

A great, great post. Well done HEM. All too often the vicissitudes of recruiting drive people into the extreme groups of "Trust in Self" and "Self Can't Recruit".

John Boyle 9 years, 7 months ago

The sky is falling, the sky is falling.

Everyone else is an uneducated idiot and you are the smartest person in the world. Give me a break, the other posters have just as much a right to their opinion as you do yours and many of them are just as knowledgeable or more knowledgeable than you. Get off your high horse baby!

Jack Wilson 9 years, 7 months ago

No, no .. jaybate is the smartest guy in the room. I freely admit that.

I am always willing to hear your logic .. as a wise man once said, tell me "why" I'm wrong.

NebraskaJayhawk 9 years, 7 months ago

"He led KU to a National Championship his sophomore season."

That statement right there about Sherron is wrong. Sorry, but Sherron did not lead that team. He hit a great shot to tie the NC game and he was a great player, but he did not lead that team. RusRob and MC lead that team.

Jack Wilson 9 years, 7 months ago

How much did you see Russell on the court in the second half? Who shut down D-Rose? Sherron played almost twice the minutes as Russell in the title game. I'm not going to diminish Robinson's role, but Sherron carried us in the crucial minutes. Perhaps my phrasing should have been "helped lead .."

Mel Clare 9 years, 7 months ago

Geez..............I would not want to come here either if I ever seen this board as a recruit............spoiled whiners on here because we dont land who they think we should land. There are LOTS of other schools, other reasons recruits go to the schools they choose..some are not ethical(Kensucky) and some are, coach, school, location, history.....I am for KU.............BUT NC, Duke, Michigan, UNLV, Nova, UCONN................LOTS of schools have tradition and things to offer all these kids..............BUT OMG at least support the ones we do get!!!

Michael Bratisax 9 years, 7 months ago

On spot! I think Sherron's best moment was the play immediately preceding "The Shot" when he stole the inbounds pass, passed inside while setting up for the 3 and then knocking it down when the ball was passed back to him.

It will never have the acclimation of Chalmers great shot but I think it was technically more difficult and equally important.

Michael Bratisax 9 years, 7 months ago

Don't sell yourself short HEM. I've always enjoyed both of your posts albeit different in style. Style does not equal intelligence but you both have mastered in your chosen technique. Analytical v Intellective

HawkKlaw 9 years, 7 months ago

You hit the nail on the head with this analysis, HEM. Most of us with common sense know that Mason is just insurance in case we miss out on other higher-ranked PG's. He's not exactly a player to get too excited about and we certainly shouldn't be comparing him to one of the best PG's in the history of KU basketball just yet.

I don't rule him out as someday being a good player at KU (much like Tharpe), but we all need to temper our expectations a bit until we see the kid play.

jaybate 9 years, 7 months ago

But you don't have common sense. Why are you including yourself in that group? :-)

HawkKlaw 9 years, 7 months ago

I'm just glad that I've refuted enough of your idiotic notions with evidence and logical thought that you've finally just resorted to making fun of all of my posts, as opposed continually getting pummeled by superior intellect. I'll give you credit - you do make wise choices once in a while!

jaybate 9 years, 7 months ago

Earth to HawkKlodinator,

You don't refute.

You can't refute.

You don't even grasp.

You be going all Benji.


Sound and fury.

And nothing more.


kureader 9 years, 7 months ago

You're lecturing someone about common sense?

kureader 9 years, 7 months ago

Jaybate ... chill out, man. HawkKlaw just complimented HEM on a very good analysis and made a couple simple observations about Mason.

If anyone lacks common sense, here ... it's you.

Michael Bratisax 9 years, 7 months ago

Lacking 'common' sense may actually be a good thing.

KansasComet 9 years, 7 months ago

I enjoyed reading your comments on Sherron Collins. Thanks!

LubbockJhawk85 9 years, 7 months ago

Go check out some youtube video of Mason, he's 5'11 and can dunk. I have a special spot in my heart for Sherron, if for nothing else, he was able to get that pass off to Mario for the shot. Let's call it though, Sherron wasn't in dunking shape his last 3 years at KU and it didn't matter because he could play. Comparing Mason to Sherron is a stretch at this point, but not because of height and leaping ability.

LubbockJhawk85 9 years, 7 months ago

Easy one handed dunk @ 3:05, especially for a 5'11 guy and this is from his '10-'11 season. It's reasonable to think he's gotten stronger and more explosive in the last couple years.

LubbockJhawk85 9 years, 7 months ago

I didn't say it was comparable to Sherron's dunk, I just said I'd seen him dunk. Who really cares about a 5'11 PG dunking? Like I said, Sherron wasn't in dunking shape most of his time at KU and he was still really successful. I hope he has half the heart and onions Sherron did.

Robin Smith 9 years, 7 months ago

Trent Johnson is a good coach in his first year with a new program joining a major conference, which he left the SEC for. This may be the beginning of something for TCU and that's likely what he told Shepherd. Plus they will probably wear some really crazy Nike jerseys.

Robin Smith 9 years, 7 months ago

The only thing I was addressing was that this is a surprising move. The only surprising part is it seemed he liked KU pretty well, but in picking TCU, by it's own merits, I don't think it's that surprising. Given the factors I listed it makes plenty of sense when combined with home proximity, even if it's not the best choice for getting to the NBA. Plus I don't actually think it will knock his shot at the NBA that much.

Ron Prichard 9 years, 7 months ago

I have to say that I really like HEM's analysis above. He is absolutely correct. When I saw that we landed Mason I was both happy (we got a point guard that Self so badly wanted) and disappointed (will Peters' interest in KU fade?) at the same time. I hope Mason turns into an All-American while at KU, but right now there is no doubt about it, he is an insurance signing.

I also find it funny when people say they don't want the one and done's. They are basing all of that on two players and two players only. If KU had a OAD such as D. Rose or Anthony Davis or even Josh Selby on last year's team do you think it could have made a difference against Kentucky? Absolutely. I don't want an argument about chemistry here, I'm just talking talent right now. Nobody can forecast chemistry with any certainty. Talent can forcast talent with a great deal of certainty, especially when you are dealing with elite athletes.

I want a OAD. I want two of them. Do I want an entire team? Probably not, but Self will never recruit an entire team of OADs. He will, however, go after one or two a year. He will then go after as many of the 10-50 ranked players as he can get. After that, he'll go after 51-150 for insurance. That is what we have with Mason. An insurance player.

If you don't think Mason is an insurance player, ask yourself this question: If Self could still land Peters, would you want him? If you could only have one, would you take Peters over Mason? If either of those questions is yes, then you know rankings do matter and Mason is an insurance signing.

With all of that said, I am happy for Frank Mason and welcome him into the Jayhawk family. I hope he continues to improve and exceeds all our expectations. As unfair as the comparison is, I hope he turns into another Sherron Collins-esque player.

Now, let's go out and sign Peters and a 6'8" (or taller) beast that is considered a OAD or close to it. Then I will really be happy! And so will you. Even those of you professing to not want the OADs.

Ben Simonett 9 years, 7 months ago

Were down to Anya now as a realistic target? what is he the 7-8th guy on Self's priority list?

You have to admit that the staff is struggling to land one of there top 4-6 guys they target at a poisition that you yourself stated was the measuring stick of successful recruiting.

DCLawHawk 9 years, 7 months ago

Is that right? Interesting. If Shepherd didn't get an in-home visit, then it's not surprising that he picked a school other than KU. That also tells me that HCBS must have a pretty good sense that someone above Shepherd on his priority list will come KU's way.

BringBackMark 9 years, 7 months ago

That mentality really speaks to the "student athlete". I hope we never see another player here that doesn't stay at least 3 years. Perhaps you super fans did not attend KU or any University for that matter. That's ok, but there's more to being a fan than just seeing "super jock" run up and down the court for one year hoping the right NBA scout is in the crowd.

Recruiting is completely out of control. Calipari is in on every top ten player in the next three dirty stuff going on there I'm sure. Especially based on the fact that all of the school's he's left immediately went on probation.

Bill Self will do just fine whether he has top 10, 50, or 150. You build depth by having quality (perhaps not super star) players that gell into a team over a period of time.

Ron Prichard 9 years, 7 months ago

No offense, but this "super fan" earned two degrees from KU, is a season ticket holder, and pretty much bleeds crimson and blue. Just because my opinion is different than yours means I value the "student athlete" any less. Still, reality is reality. To compete in big time college athletics you have to get the best players you can get. If you think that is wrong, look at the 2008 Championship team. Multiple 5 stars, at least one that was originally intending to be a OAD and was only there for that season because he blew out his knee prepping for the draft (Rush).

So you can cry me a river on the recruiting is out of control issue. I actually agree with you but I'm a realist, so what are you going to do? Let everyone else recruit the best players? Not likely. You go after the best players you can get. Right or wrong, that's the way it is, and if you want KU to compete for national titles, you better get used to it.

flyingfinn 9 years, 7 months ago

Failed to qualify academically at Towsen State?????????????? WTF

DallasJay14 9 years, 7 months ago

I am sorry but Sherron was a MAA and a highly recruited guard. He was an impact player off the bench his freshman year. He was also stronger coming out than this kid. There is no comparison! This is another transfer waiting to happen.

AsadZ 9 years, 7 months ago

HEM, Once again you have hit the nail in the head. Very well said.

Kevin Huffman 9 years, 7 months ago

I feel like we now need a SG/SF or SF type and a post player OR two post players. I would be VERY surprised to see them get Peters now. I think the Harrisons signing w/ UK means Peters is going to MD. He may still visit but I think that'll just be a perk for him. I don't think there's any real thought that he would come here now.

OBVIOUS No. 1 best case outcome of remaining truly interested in KU players would be committments from both Selden & Randle. Unfortunately, one won't decide until the Spring. I still think that Randle has a UK lean but I think we're right there. Maybe if UK gets enough other guys from now 'til when he commits he might more seriously consider us. The only other players left out there that seemingly have real interest in us that would excite me would be J. Young (especially if McLemore was a OAD), A. Gordon, Embiid (just nervous that he won't do much his first season), Vonleh (though hadn't heard anything linking him to us specifically) & Ty. Roberson (found it odd that he went from coming to Late Night to now coming the weekend after). So no Shepherd now coming to Late Night. Only ones coming that we're trying to impress then are A.Gordon, Embiid, & that right?

If we're realistic and know that Randle's likely UK bound I could live with Selden & Embiid. I'm just afraid that while I see Embiid as being mosterific awesome by his Sophomore & ESPECIALLY Junior season, I just don't expect much in his first season....a'la Withey. We've made due w/o 7'ers too though like in the string of years with the Morris's BEFORE Withey became any kind of factor and after Aldrich left.

If ONE recruit has sounded like they REALLY have interest in us despite his proximity to another school - would have to be Embiid. UF seems like the logical fit, but he makes no mistake in his being quoted as being SERIOUSLY interested in KU. I think he might see himself as Jeff Withey 2.0. I'd certainly love that though I think that would mean more for 2014/15 or 15/16 than next season.

Robin Smith 9 years, 7 months ago

I'm very pleased that Gordon, Selden, and Embiid will be at Late Night.

I have a feeling that the experience may be enough to get Embiid on board right away. Read a great article from a week ago that asserted the author's belief that Embiid will possibly be the best center in the class. Sounds like he's just rocketing up the learning curve.

I hope they're all impressed and eager to commit and then we have a schollie shortage sorting issue, which would be a reversal from some of the chicken-littling (warranted, to be sure).

kufankam 9 years, 7 months ago

the OU game where sherron took over was one of the more impressive performances i have seen from an individual player in a LONG time. he was unconcious...

Ben Simonett 9 years, 7 months ago

what about the 4th quarter take over to sneak out a W(and keep the winning streak alive) against harvard?

Joe Ross 9 years, 7 months ago

I have to agree with the contingent who say comparisons with sherron Collins are premature and, in my opinion, will not only prove inaccurate...but ridiculous. Collins ranks fifth all time on the career scoring list at kansas, lest you forget. This kid hasn't played a single game against college level competition and will soon learn that Collins' drives amongst the trees are not easily duplicated at this level, especially for someone below six foot. People, please...I understand your enthusiasm and desire to believe the best. But let's not get carried away by deifying the kid, which is what comparisons with collins really amount to. Just make yourself content with the fact that coach self sees something in the kid he likes. Period.

Joe Ross 9 years, 7 months ago

Kid's got some brass in thinking he can repeat sherrons performance at kansas. He's gonna need that confidence!

milehighhawk 9 years, 7 months ago

It always takes a mix of young stars and 3-4 year guys. With all due respect to HEM's novel, trust in Self.

Welcome to KU, Frank.

Joe Ross 9 years, 7 months ago

I didn't read high elite's post before I commented myself, but I tell's hard to fault most of what he says. I am loathe to make predictions about a kid being done after one year or deciding what his place is going to be (a la jaybate who "knows all"), but I think Hem mostly hits the nail squarely on the head. It is far too soon to make comparisons to sherron and it's really kind of preposterous to do so at this point, which is the main thrust of what he's saying....

jaybate 9 years, 7 months ago


Wah, ah don't know spit 'bout nuttin' and ah thinks ah knows less dan dat.

Yet I don't feel at risk of waking up one day and learning much from your posts. ;-)

Keep your focus on your expertise: trying to get St. Bennies cronies insinuated into the program and keep positioning your comments so you will be able to recommend some losers if Self departs for any reason.

ShoeCo-Summer Game-Agency Complex.

Study it. Learn about it. Tell folks your relation to the Complex.

I got none. How 'bout you?

Rock Chalk!

jaybate 9 years, 7 months ago

ShoeCo-Summer Game-Agency-Disclaimerer

Joe Ross 9 years, 7 months ago

I bet it keeps you awake at night trying to figure out why your remarks don't bother me. Lol. Cause I got over that kind of thing in the third grade. Try again

Joe Ross 9 years, 7 months ago

you make me laugh. Your hilarity > your intellect

Jack Wilson 9 years, 7 months ago

milehighhawk: Since you cited my novel .. I have to ask the questions. The obvious questions. The questions that goes to the heart of the "trust in Self" crowd, that you may be equipped to answer. I am open to learn, to be corrected, and to be enlightened:

If we are to trust in Self, why shouldn't we trust his instints in pursuing Barber, Jackson, Jordan, Jones, and Peters (and others who weren't pure PGs) ahead of Mason? Isn't that the judgment we should trust?

Does simply being told "no" by your top 5 choices mean that it was Self's judgment that Mason was the best option to fill the PG scholarship spot? Or does it mean that Mason was simply best remaining option to fill the PG need, as identified by Self?

John Boyle 9 years, 7 months ago

Either way, you need to trust that he did what was right and what was needed given the circumstances.

Jack Wilson 9 years, 7 months ago

JayhawkJohn: The question is "what are we trusting"? If it's that he identified the "best available" and secured him given the landscape now, the risk of missing on others, etc. -- I'm good with that.

But that's not what the "trust in Self" crowd means. The implication (and many times direct statement) is clear -- how dare someone question the worth of a commit -- and that position is based solely on the fact that Self made him an unconditional offer that was accepted. That is viewing it in vacuum. It's not considering all the water under the bridge that got us there.

Should the "trust Self" logic be applied to Appleton, Woolridge, Lindsay, Traylor, Anderson, Doyle? Or is it reasonable to scrutinize those decision, and view it with a critical eye given what led up to those decisions? More so, is it ok to question the OAF mentality that appears .. appears .. to have been present with Lindsay and Doyle decisions, and possibly the Anderson/Traylor decisions? Bringing in guys with low success probabilities, understanding that a transfer is the parachute?

RockChalk26 9 years, 7 months ago

Here is my take on the phrase, "Trust in Self"

I for one, have never heard anyone say, "Trust in Self," after landing a top recruit like Selby or Henry. Usually the response is, "Way to go Bill," or "Never doubted Bill for a second."

So when I read, "Trust in Self," I take it as if we are suppose to trust in Self's ability to coach less talented kids up to the level it takes to win.

milehighhawk 9 years, 7 months ago

Okay, four questions were asked - first two ate the same. Yes, that's what we should trust. What other paradigm would you suggest?

Your last two questions were framed as though they ate mutually exclusive, and they aren't: I would answer in the affirmative.

So these are the answers...the obvious answers...

REHawk 9 years, 7 months ago

Gordon would be a fine Jayhawk commitment. My intuition tells me we have a much better chance with Selden and Embiid. Mayor Hoiberg surprised a lot of people with his "out of the box" design to bring the ball upcoart with his power forward last season. Bill Self might actually envision pitching a change-up of that nature with the likes of Selden, perhaps as an 18 minute game changer. I could see Rick Barnes' brow furrowing at such a tactic...and Scott Drew clutching at his necktie for oxygen.

jaybate 9 years, 7 months ago


Historically, Self usually literally steals anything new that works defensively. But on offense he tends to want to take the concept and massage it into something that is organic to his offense, and somehow a recall of something traditional.

He just never really loved ball screening, though he even installled a few of those plays, but apparently more to his liking, he dusted off pick and roll and the old weave, the latter of which was a ball scrape. :-)

Joe Ross 9 years, 7 months ago


Historically, you are Galactically stupid.

justinryman 9 years, 7 months ago

I really don't have a problem with him comparing himself to any former KU player, exception Wilt.

I look at it this way, no he won't be Sherron or anyone else that has played for Jayhawk U. But he is setting his goals lofty and high. Hey if he comes close to reaching them then that's awesome. He he only gets half way to Sherron then I'm still OK with that.

It's better go for the rafters than to say he wants to play the game like CJ Giles.

Comparisons are for the media-types. Come on there will never be another Jordan, Lebron or Kobe. Just like there will never be another Danny, Mario or Sherron. Just be the first you and things will go well.

Joe Ross 9 years, 7 months ago

Interesting. I disagree with your first statement, but agree with your last. Obviously he doesn't know it yet, but a comparison to sherron is NOT something he wants to be saddled with. Too. Much. Pressure.

Totally agree about the kid just bringing his own game.

jaybate 9 years, 7 months ago

Why in the world is disagreeing with one statement and agreeing with another "interesting"?

To whom other than you?

Some St. Bennies that need yobs? :-)


jloss = echo-alias

kureader 9 years, 7 months ago

Bag'n on Jross again ... because HIS posts aren't interesting to anyone other than himself?

And yours?

Tony Bandle 9 years, 7 months ago

I think the headline would have been a little less controversial if the "Sheron II" had been deleted. Collins-like could be widely interpreted as Mason possibly having similar potential.

But I have to agree with so strongly align Frank to Sherron is totally unfair to both young men.

Tony Bandle 9 years, 7 months ago

PS didn't take HEM long, did it!! :)

jaybate 9 years, 7 months ago

Okay, I'm usually a pussy cat around here, supportive, loving, compassionate, emotional, nuanced, suffused with awe at the legacy, and only bash the BWOBs (i.e., Bashers without Brains--jloss, HawkKlod, and JayShagsHimselfintheEarNoseandThroat), or the ShoeCo-Summer Game-Agency Complex, or the Media-Gaming Complex. Other than these subjects I am Gandhi G these days.

But this thread needs to be dragged to the trash icon and dropped with a track pad.

I am reading long, short and in between takes, no, make that back and forth, of whether, or not, Frank Mason is Sherron Collins 2.0.

Here is all anyone needed to post about Mason in this regard.

"NO. Next."


HawkKlaw 9 years, 7 months ago

Your made up nickname for my made up nickname is weak. Bring it or go home, 'bate!

jaybate 9 years, 7 months ago


You don't deserve a better nickname than that.


HawkKlaw 9 years, 7 months ago

This post is for those of you who think that Self is missing out on more recruits now than he used to. I never really follow recruiting too closely - I mainly just opt to start watching when the exhibition games start and stop watching when we win the National Championship (I'm also a wishful thinker). I'm just wondering out loud here, so forgive the ramblings, but:

What do you think has changed in the past few years to make it more difficult for Bill Self to get Top 20 recruits to KU? He's obviously doing a fine job of getting that "next tier" that HEM always talks about, landing guys like Frankamp and Greene. But why do you think that his older classes blow away his newer classes? (And don't give me 2010's recruiting class as an example - that is a one-time ordeal where Self had to react quickly to the somewhat-unexpected departure of the Morris twins (and Selby, to a lesser-extent), after which the NCAA ruled his recruits ineligible. That class is an exception for many reasons.)

If you think about it logically, Bill Self probably hasn't changed up his recruiting pitch too much over the years, given how successful he has been in the past at landing talent. If anything, Bill Self has even more recruiting ammo now than he ever has, with 8 Big 12 titles under his belt, 2 Final Fours, a National Championship, a team that contends for the National Championship ever year and above all - continually developing players into NBA talent.

I know jaybate's theory (shoe-company affiliation). I don't disagree with it, but I don't think it has as much weight as jaybate gives it credit for. I suppose I'm not very materialistic, but to me, choosing a school based on shoe-company affiliation is ridiculous. And if that many students are choosing UK because they're affiliated with Nike, why hasn't KU used that knowledge and switched over to Nike too? It seems like a fairly easy fix for a university with a bunch of money.

I don't doubt that Calipari "cheats" at recruiting, as a lot of you have pointed out, but if you think Bill Self and KU don't also bend the rules a little bit when recruiting, you're naive. KU has as much money to offer as any other school, doesn't it? It doesn't seem like UK or Memphis should have the advantage there.


jaybate 9 years, 7 months ago

I get it. You are a flat earthed, right?

Why waste your time trying to refute truth.

Of course Self's recruiting has sagged the last couple seasons.

The only point of debate is why?

You don't even deal with that.


HawkKlaw 9 years, 7 months ago

Actually, the "why?" of it was the entire post.

Nice try though, 'bate.


Ben Simonett 9 years, 7 months ago

I too wonder why the program sticks with Addidas. I would guess that, as with most things in life, its all comes down to $$$$$

texashawk10 9 years, 7 months ago

Here's an article from 2005 when KU announced their deal with Adidas and I can't say I blame Lew for signing that deal at the time because it pumped over $25 million into the athletic department. For those who don't want to read the article, here's the meat of it. The contract went into effect on July 1, 2005 and expires on June 30, 2013 which is the end of this academic year. The contract is worth $26.67 million over the 8 year life of it which breaks down to about $3.4 million per year to outfit all of KU's athletic teams. The previous Nike contract was for 10 years and was worth $6.5 million total or $650,000 per year to outfit the football team and men's and women's basketball so KU made 5x more money per year by switching to Adidas in 2005 so yes bennybob it did come down to money.

HawkKlaw 9 years, 7 months ago

I agree that it all comes down to the almighty dollar, but KU has a lot of those. Why not just buy out our contract with Adidas and go back to Nike, if there really is evidence that there is a clear trend of top-recruits going to the schools that sport their favorite duds?

HawkKlaw 9 years, 7 months ago


So what is it? What are your theories? I've heard jaybate's, but I'd really like to hear from the rest of you as to why you think we're missing out now more than ever. I kind of agree with Keegan (never thought I'd say that) and his "recruiting is covered more now than it ever has been, so the misses on recruits are amplified" theory.

Personally, I don't like to complain when I see KU landing guys like McLemore, Ellis, Frankamp and Greene. I mean, those are all very high-caliber players, no doubt about it. They'll all do great things at KU. Obviously, they have a lot to prove to follow in the footsteps of guys like Brandon Rush, Julian Wright, Darnell Jackson, Russell Robinson, etc, but the potential seems to be there.

So what do you think? I wanna know!

jaybate 9 years, 7 months ago

Of course you like to complain. You're the HawkKlodinator!

There, I gave wittle woo a new wittle nickname. :-)

Kyle "jaybate" Reese: Listen, and understand. That HawkKlodinator is out there. It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't know intelligence, or wisdom, or correctness. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are bored to death.


HawkKlaw 9 years, 7 months ago

Oh, you mean I actually back up the things I say with logical thought and evidence?

You should take notes. :-)

jaybate 9 years, 7 months ago

No, you penny brain, I mean you don't. :-)

HawkKlaw 9 years, 7 months ago

That doesn't make sense, when I do. Lol!

Ben Simonett 9 years, 7 months ago

Theory 1) Josh Selby. Sure he was rule inelligble early and hurt his foot, but to a recruit that only sees programs from a far all that translates to is "Bill Self took the #1 recruit in the country and tunred him into a second rounder". That doesnt go over well with the 30-40 kids in every class that believe their all OADs.

Theory 2) Ticket scandal. The University is in a very shaky place after the ticket scandal. Because of this the staff is going out of thier way not to damage the image any further. This in turn is preventing the staff from engaging in those semi-shady/borderline recruiting prectices that almost every program does.(FYI I don't want to argue that the staff is/isn't shady. I'll simply point to Mario's Dad and Xavier's brother)

To be honest I don't think anybody can truly know why the recruiting is slumping. those are my two best guesses and i'd like to stress GUESSES.

texashawk10 9 years, 7 months ago

I have a couple of other guesses as well that may play a role as well. Because of the success Self had recently in recruiting, KU didn't have the available PT to offer to the elite recruits that other schools did and we're seeing a carry over effect of that situaton.

My second guess is the lack of NBA success that Bill Self's players have had. Players want to go to a school that will make them NBA superstars and quite frankly, Mario Chalmers is the closest thing to a superstar that Bill Self has right now in the NBA.

HawkKlaw 9 years, 7 months ago

I agree with your first guess. Bill Self will not promise PT to any newcomers when players like Marcus and Markieff Morris are on the roster. He just won't do it. I know that's why he came up short in the 2011 class, for sure. But after this year, we will lose EJ, Travis, Withey and maybe BMac. He's found good replacements for Travis and BMac (Greene and Frankamp). We really need to get an excellent PG to replace EJ though (Naadir will be good. Just how good remains to be seen.), and it'd be nice to get another really good C to replace Withey (although I think we'd be fine with Ellis/Peters/Lucas/Traylor if it came down to that). I think he can promise PT to the right PG or C recruits right now, so I don't think that's necessarily hurting this year's class, but I agree that has hurt Bill Self in the past.

As for your second guess, I think the fact that Bill Self gets a lot of 2-4 year players into the NBA is enough ammo to get great recruits to come to KU. There's a laundry list of his players that have made it to the NBA and other professional leagues around the world. Come to think of it, that may be the biggest issue of them all: Bill Self hasn't had much success getting OAD's into the NBA (He's only had 2, and they both went pro after one year. But still, only having 2 ever grace your program probably hurt's KU's image), so the perception is probably that if you're a OAD, KU is not the right school for you. However, if you plan to play in the NCAA for 2-4 years, KU will put you in the position to get noticed by NBA scouts. Honestly, that's probably my best guess as to why recruiting may be slumping.

HawkKlaw 9 years, 7 months ago

I don't disagree with your first theory. The Selby failure (no matter who's fault it actually was) put KU in a bad light, recruiting-wise. That's ammo that other schools use against KU, I'm sure. That probably does play a big part of it.

I truly don't think the ticket scandal concerns recruits, though. Most recruits today probably don't even know/remember it. I know I've tried very hard to forget it (selective memory of a KU fan). Plus, as you mentioned, KU has taken steps to make sure it doesn't happen again. I think most people are satisfied with how KU handled that situation.

Personally, my guess is that conference re-alignment also plays a large part. The Big 12 will always seem like a foolish conference name when there are only 10 teams, and teams in conferences like the SEC can boast strength in the conference. That gives teams like UK a lot of ammo when recruiting.

I agree though, none of us can truly know why recruiting may be slumping. It could just be the luck of the draw, for all we know. Thanks for your response, benny.

notjustbread 9 years, 7 months ago

comparisons to Sherron...does he like jelly doughnuts and all you can eat buffets too? More importantly, can he put a team on his back and carry them to a Big 12 champion chip (ruffles or pringles)?

jaybate 9 years, 7 months ago

Those arguing that Self's recruiting has not fallen off a bit the last three years seems obtuse.

Self's fall off in recent years appears to be in the just below OAD rank from out of state.

And this appears to coincide with where the ShoeCo-Summer Game-Agency Complex has perhaps been moving into heaviest, after first appearing to monopolize (or at least oligopolies) control of the OADs.

Board rats keep forgetting, this is not new. Self has never landed an OAD (Rush, Xavier, Josh) that did not have to bail out of other situations first. The Complex has long appeared to have had the OADs locked and denied to the Indies, whom I increasingly think Self came up apart of. Self was part of the Okie Baller Mafia. He probably didn't need the Complex early on. He didn't go out of his way to conflict with it, but he probably never really sided up with it. At ORU and Tulsa, it didn't matter. At Illinois, he could get his recruiting needs met locally, so he didn't have to test the quota system. But at KU, it was recruit everywhere, or fail. And recruit everywhere in any amount is apparently a violation of the cartel quota system.

So: Self probably early on, even before the "right way" coaches tried to form a vanguard to take back recruiting (as always, if my hypothesis were right), became a loose canon and a guy for the cartel to watch out for, to underreport successes and overreport failures.

So: Self was a lone ranger for a while that chancellors trying to feel good about themselve could hire. I suspect the whole Okie Baller Mafia packaged itself to schools this way. Hire us and we'll put a respectable product on the floor and do it "the right way."

But the cartel kept growing. And it probably began to channel more and more material.

So, now the "lock and deny" thing has apparently spread.

I hypothesize that the ShoeCo-Summer Game-Agency Complex is like all cartels. It assigns quotas and those that go beyond the quotas are sanctioned.

It probably picks certain schools to stack so that they will win and cause others to realize these guys are in control.

Don't play ball and you get sanctioned.

Venezuela violated the OPEC quota. Its sanctioned. No one cared about Chavez' politics, just the barrels pumped and currency they were priced in.

Russia started dumping oil and gas and paid off its national debt completely. Its sanctioned because though its outside the OPEC cartel, it won't respect the quotas unofficially.

Self has said: KU you will recruit any player anywhere that shows an interest in playing for KU.

Them are fighting words for any cartel.

kureader 9 years, 7 months ago

I hate to contradict you, Jross ... but, maybe you're just not a deep thinker like Jaybate! Perhaps it will help if you just read Jaybate's post over and over again?

Then, maybe you'll understand that KU basketball is like Venezuela's violation of the OPEC quota or like Russia dumping oil and gas to pay off its national debt! Com'on Jross, open your mind to the possibilities! You need to play ball with Jaybate or you'll get "sanctioned"!

Joe Ross 9 years, 7 months ago

Jay dogger...did you pick up on the sarcasm?

RockChalkIowa2010 9 years, 7 months ago

I normally avoid joining the message board because it's primarily full of nonsense but I can't help it when people are making incredibly asinine and incorrect comments. I'm not here to defend Mason's game - I know NOTHING about his game except what a ratings site tells me and I can watch on a 3 minute highlight tape. I don't trust either. I just wanted to share a few first round picks from the last two years and where they were rated by rivals.

2012: Damian Lillard - un-ranked 2 star recruit - 6th overall Andrew Nicolson - un ranked 2 star recruit - 19th overall Jared Cunningham - 76th ranked - 24th overall Festus Ezeli - 145th ranked - 31st overall

2011: Derrick Williams - un-ranked 3 stars - 2nd overall Jimmer Fredette - un-ranked 3 stars - 10th overall Alec Burks - un-ranked 3 stars - 12th overall Reggie Jackson - 115th ranked 3 stars - 24th overall Marshon Brooks - un-rated 3 stars - 25th overall Noriss Cole - un-rated 0 stars - 28th overall Jimmy Butler - un-rated 0 stars - 30th overall

Will Mason be a first round pick? Probably not. Will he be the next Sherron? Doubtful (the headline of this article is RIDICULOUS by the way). Is he more likely to come in, sit two/three years, and potentially transfer before seeing any significant playing time? If I was betting I'd probably choose this one.

BUT - why are we ripping him apart? This is the biggest decision of his life. Here's a young man who had academic troubles, decided to attend a MILITARY school rather than prep school, and has a primary reason as choosing KU because of academics and the type of individuals and character of our team. Like I said, I don't know him, but it seems to me he was a kid who's made some bad decisions concerning his academics (as many KIDS do) and has made a conscious effort to better himself, his academics, and put himself in a position to succeed. That's awesome. I'm proud we have a team that displays that image to recruits and have recruits who want to be a part of it.

As for Self - he recruits to his system. Do the top 25 fit his system? Absolutely. Does he go after them and more often than not fail? Yes. But the reason is because he is always honest. The top players in the country don't want to hear that the past few top 40 recruits we've brought in have sat 2 years and have even been red-shirted. Top guards don't want to hear that our system is built around ball movement and feeding the post. The top post players don't want to hear that learning positioning and defense takes time and there are 2 guys ahead of you ranked in the top 50 in their classes with experience under their belt. So yes - it's hard. But this exact system has won us 8 consecutive conference championships, won us a NC in 2008 and put us as runners up last year, and makes for a team that I am proud to call my alma mater.

HawkKlaw 9 years, 7 months ago

See, this is what I was asking about above. You feel like the reason why Bill Self is missing out more on recruits is that he is honest, and the top players in the country want guaranteed playing time (as opposed to putting in the effort to go out and earn it by outplaying upper-classmen).

I agree wholeheartedly.

But that doesn't explain why he had so much success in the past with players like Brandon Rush, Mario Chalmers, Russell Robinson, Julian Wright, Darrell Arthur, and Sherron Collins (all 5 star recruits who probably had guaranteed PT offered to them by many schools).

I want to know why you think he was able to get those players early in his career at KU, but misses out on them more nowadays? Has anything changed? Or do you feel that's not the case?

Joel Thomas 9 years, 7 months ago

Rush: damaged goods. Chalmers: hired Ronnie. Russell: no clue, but his career was rocky. Julian: Chicago ties. Collins: Chicago ties. Arthur: had a dream. Chicago is a hotbed of talent, but Self has been at a distance for years now. 5-stars with hire-able family don't often come along, but I saw just build another dorm and have parents peddle tickets. Same with damaged goods - they are not a consistently reliable resource. Really we're competing with Cal and UK and his magic. Whether he's dirty or not, the rest of the college basketball world just keeps hoping more NBA coaches get fired or retire. We're also competing, to a lesser extent, with UNC and Duke. UNC has Jordan; Duke has a coach who won gold with NBA megastars. They have each other. Otherwise we're like many very, very good programs, except we're great because of tradition and a pedigree of great coaches for the last few decades. We are embarrassingly successful, but without the presumption of the aforementioned programs (unless you're an MU or KSU fan). This is fine, more than fine. I'm a little ashamed to say I'd be euphoric if we had UK's recruiting class, so the concern regarding recruiting is there.

However, regarding the debate, do we have a choice? To denigrate Self because Cal is hoarding all the top recruits is to cut off your nose to spite your face, or, merely, commiserating. He won't land Randle or Parker, but his record speaks for itself. And if recruiting is indeed his downfall, it's going to get worse before it gets better, because no AD will fire him anytime before it's already too late.

Finally, the season is in sight - so we might talk about what's really interesting - the games.

DCLawHawk 9 years, 7 months ago

RCI2010, I don't post on here nearly as frequently as I read the boards, but I wanted to say I appreciate your thoughtful, fact-based post. Your credible explanation exposes Jaybate's utterly ridiculous black helicopters routine for the conspiracy-mongering bilge that it is.

Occam's razor tells us that the simplest explanation is usually right. Hence, Self takes an honest approach on the recruiting trail. That honest approach turns off some kids (including most OAD candidates) who are used to having sunshine blown up their skirts and have no idea how to cope with the prospect of delayed gratification. If the problem is getting worse (apparently as measured solely by HCBS's recruiting success), then it may be because more and more high school players are getting overly impressed with themselves. QED. But you said it much more eloquently than that. Thank you.

Ben Simonett 9 years, 7 months ago

Self LIED to Perry Ellis, flat out promised the kid he'd be a 3. then got him on campus and put him in the post.

Self's a coach like any other coach, there is no evidence that kids don't choose his program because hes "too honest" with them. That's just the nice little story everyone wants to be true because it simultaneously makes our coach look better than all the rest while excusing his recruiting short comings.

Ajayhwk 9 years, 7 months ago

Great post! Too many posters are far too obsessed with rankings alone and comment on players without ever having seen them play. Trust our coaches who spend countless hours watching the players on and off the court, talk to the high school and AAU coaches and other reliable contacts. They also know the strength and weaknesses of our own players and therefore our real needs better than an average fan.

jaybate 9 years, 7 months ago

Self is apparently trying to be a cartel buster.

He appears to be being given an extendo to keep doing it.

Hence, someone wants the cartel broken.

Her name starts with a B.

I can't tell if there is anyone above her, but CBernie does not seem like the Mother Theresa type--the lone saint. I'm guessing she has serious allies backing her on this gambit with Self and the extendo.

I can't tell who else wants it broken enough to give their coach a ten-year.

But these things always betray themselves, if one just keeps watching.

But this cartel is going to be very painful to break.

Self alone can't do it, I don't believe. But it is like they are using Self to provoke the cartel to do something actionable. Coach K, Donovan and Roy seem to be pulling back a bit. Self seems to be running point for awhile.

But all cartels, expecially complicated ones like this Complex, evenually lose cohesion.

They have internal fault lines that can be destabilized.

Cartels always seem fundamentally stable, but they often are not.

But hard to say where this is heading beyond noting that Norm and Billy were probably not the last casualties.

Ron Prichard 9 years, 7 months ago

Jaybate, I always respect your right to come on here and say whatever you want, just like the rest of us. But I just have to say...


kureader 9 years, 7 months ago

That was very polite and tactful, raprichard.
You're way too mello today!

RockChalkIowa2010 9 years, 7 months ago


I have no doubt based on everything every recruit and player has ever said about Self that he has told Frank Mason the 100% truth when recruiting him. Self recruits to his system. Mason fits his system but knows he has players at KU ahead of him, he'll more than likely be sitting. If Self were to get a top 50 guard it'd be even more difficult to crack the starting lineup before your senior year. But, let's not forget Self offered in July, if a few recruits fall through and Mason is serious about coming to KU to become a better player and person than the sky's the limit. If he can't handle sitting or doesn't see himself ever being able to crack the starting lineup he can transfer and will receive all the help KU can give him to ensure he ends up on his feet.

This is a great pickup. This is an awesome day for Frank Mason. We had a scholarship to give and we gave it to a player who's hungry to succeed and knows what he's getting into. He'll represent KU well and, who knows, he may turn in to the next Damian Lillard or Derrick Williams. He also may transfer and never play more than mop up minutes. Either way, because of the system Self runs and his propensity to be honest with his recruits, stashing the offer for next year doesn't make sense. We don't get recruits, not because of a lack of scholarships, but because they have people like coach Cal letting them come in, act like NBA players, and leave after a year with no focus on academics or character development. So, instead, let's bring in a guy who has the physical tools Self wants and the willingness to work hard to make himself the best player he can be and hopefully hang his name in the rafters some day.

Welcome to Lawrence, Frank.

vd 9 years, 7 months ago

This comment was removed by the site staff for violation of the usage agreement.

jaybate 9 years, 7 months ago

PHOS! 😱 😷

(Note: Posting Hall of Shame.)

(Note: You forgot to post how the case resolved.)

jaybate 9 years, 7 months ago

Has it occurred to anyone that Self did not enjoy going through the stress of watching Tyshawn outgrow 10 TOs games?

Self is a human being.

He can be scarred by certain experiences.

My guess is he has night mares in which he helplessly watches Tyshawn toss it away 10 times.

He shreaking in his sheets.

Cin holds him close.

"Wake up, honey, wake up, its only a bad dream!" she says.

"Oh, Cin, baby, it was way worse than THAT! It was turnovers. It was lack of protection by Tyshawn," Bill says, still sweating and trembling.

"It will be alright, Bill, don't worry so much!"

"Give me my iPhone, QUICK!" he says.

He speed dials Frank Mason.

"Hell, yes, we'll take you, Frank, just protect, kid, just protect..."

DCLawHawk 9 years, 7 months ago

Seriously jaybate, take your meds. JayDocMD, can you prescribe something for this condition?

JayDocMD 9 years, 7 months ago

As far as I know there's nothing available for premature confabulation. I think it would be easier to prescribe something for the rest of us. Perhaps a combination of Xanax (to assist with the willing suspension of disbelief) and Adderall (to keep us awake until the end of the posts.)

kureader 9 years, 7 months ago

JayDoc, you just disspelled the notion that doctors don't have a sense of humor!

kureader 9 years, 7 months ago

JayDoc, you just disspelled the notion that physicians don't have a sense of humor!!!

Joe Ross 9 years, 7 months ago

This post is obviously the result of oxygen deprivation at birth,

Ben Simonett 9 years, 7 months ago

By reading most of the above comments it seems the tide is turning amongst the fan base. I was making many of the same above posts 2 years ago and was getting hammered for it by everyone. A small part of me is happy my view point is finanlly catching on with the masses, but most of me is saddened by the fact that the recruiting has had to get to this point in order for others to wake up to it.

Let say the staff does go out and lands Seldon and Roberson. that doesn't change the fact that for the 3rd straight year we've been in a situation with many shcolarships available and only a few top recruits left on the radar. If we're lucky enough to escape that situation this time it'll never change the fact that we were in that situation AGAIN! as fickle as this fan base is, if we do land Seldon and Roberson people are going to instantly proclaim the recruiting drought over. Just like the popular consensous now is that last years recruiting class never had high expectations and the plan was all along to establish a "foundation" class to build on, the conenseos will become that this year's class was never in jeopordy and the staff just nailed it on the trail from the beginning. how quickly people forget.

Now, let say we don't land our last 2 targets? This is what will happen: We will start to read about names that up until this point have never been mentioned before as recruiting targets. Those names will be ranked lower than any of the names we've read about up until this point. Our recruting class will finish somewhere in the 8-15 range and the "trust in Self" followers will begin to write things along the lines of "rankings don't matter" and "look what Self did at tulsa, last year, etc". This recruiting class will get chalked up as another "foundation" class and everyone will be convinced that NEXT year is the year the staff brings in the big class.

Joel Thomas 9 years, 7 months ago

The good thing is turnaround in college basketball is guaranteed to be high. We just need a break. It'll come.

Tony Bandle 9 years, 7 months ago

We need to come up with a flashier name for Mr.Morgan. Frank sounds like the crazy uncle who gets drunk at weddings and grabs a mike and blabbers for 45 minutes.

Some suggestions..."Captain", "F-Bomb", "Franklin", "Kid", " Your-Not-Sherron-But-That's-OK", "Frankie-Boy", "FM"[because you always play clear], or "Mighty Mite",

Tony Bandle 9 years, 7 months ago

Sorry..had to interject something to break this spiralling thread of despair, gloom and doom. Don't worry...the Mayans were correct...just enjoy the last three months of your lives. :)

Tony Bandle 9 years, 7 months ago

PSS WOW..I already have his name wrong!! Guess that about does it!!

Redlandsjhawk 9 years, 7 months ago

If he's really just "insurance" I think we should call him State Farm.

Joe Baker 9 years, 7 months ago

I really think we have a shot at Randle. He visited uk 9/15 and Florida 10/6. He's visited KU 1-3 times in the last few years. In fact, he came with Zach a few times. If he doesn't pick KU, I hope he picks Florida.

I watched vids of Selden and that guy is NBA built. Hudy will help him maintain. Selden reminds me of Frank Williams that Self coached at Illinois.

texashawk10 9 years, 7 months ago

This comment was removed by the site staff for violation of the usage agreement.

ku1otaku 9 years, 7 months ago

You guys need some serious help. We'll be fine.

Ted Hume 9 years, 7 months ago

...three 5'11" point guards to go with adams

Max Ledom 9 years, 7 months ago

Lol and another disappointment coming up. Kid, do yourself a favor and stop comparing yourself to KU greats! Because if the time comes and you aren't playing good, hell will rain down upon you by the Jayhawk fans people aren't fond of.

Run, Run and never look back Frank.

JayDocMD 9 years, 7 months ago

KU still offering Roddy Peters per Zagsblog:

"His mother, Jamena Peters, told Tuesday that her son is still planning on visiting UCLA and Kansas even though ...Kansas just landed another point guard. Jamena said her son would visit Kansas Oct. 19... Asked if Kansas had told him they still want Roddy after landing Mason, she said, 'Yes, they did.' "

I'm not understanding why we didn't conditional offer Frank Mason when Roddy Peters was still interested. I know the whole "bird in the hand" thing, but why would we want both? Surely we won't waste two schollies on our 4th and 5th choices for PG. No points for quantity over quality.

There's still big fish like Selden, Roberson, Randle, and Gordon swimming in the vicinity. Sure all but Selden seem unlikely, but seems like we're risking running out of scholarships if we were to win the Randle+Selden lottery.

I'd rather take a flyer on a big man project like Embiid than Mason, especially if we're still in the running for a better PG (Peters.)

JayDocMD 9 years, 7 months ago

Roddy Peters: 6'4" 4-Star Rivals, ranked 39

Frank Mason: 5'11" 3-Star Rivals, ranked 131

texashawk10 9 years, 7 months ago

Peters may be the 4th choice, but he's still a quality player that can contribute from day 1 at KU a bench player if McLemore hangs around for more than a year or possibly as the starting 2 guard if McLemore does go after this year and it will allow Self to recruit players for the 2014 class to recruit over Mason because as of right now, KU doesn't officially have an available scholarship for 2014. I don't know what Self's expectations for McLemore leaving after this year are, but I would believe he would love to recruit over Mason and Landen Lucas and hand out a couple of scholarships for the 2014 class and possibly a third one if McLemore is good enough to go pro after this year.

KUdiehard 9 years, 7 months ago

Kid looks awesome to me. How many guys have we had that can get their own shot? Well....not very many. Taylor last year...that's about it. Check the kid out!

Bulkmania 9 years, 7 months ago

Self wants a 3 PG system (Robinson, Chalmers, Collins) Next year he'll have Frankamp, Tharpe, and hoping either anrio or mason will stick. The other gets redshirted. Pretty simple stuff. No more questions.

Ian Emerson 9 years, 7 months ago

Bulkmania knows what's up. Bill self has seen time and time again that heart beats raw talent. Xavier and josh never worked out the way he wanted so why would he want that happening again. Sure he can recruit top talent, but he doesn't promise them starting spots like he used to so they never come. Calipari gets them all cause he reloads so often all of his recruits get starting spots and instant playing time.

texashawk10 9 years, 7 months ago

I said it last night on the first Mason article and I'll say it again. History says there is a better chance of Mason transferring than there is of him making it to senior night at KU. There have been 12 3 star players that have played or will play for Bill Self at KU or 13 if you want to throw Braedan Anderson into the mix which I'm choosing not to since he never officially enrolled at KU. We know the end result of 8 those players at KU. Only 2 of those 8 ever contributed significantly at KU. Only 3 of those 8 made it senior night at KU. 5 of those 8 transferred out to smaller schools. Tyrel Reed and Brady Morningstar were both significant contributors for 3 years at KU. Jeremy Case reached graduation at KU but was never a significant contributor as he never averaged more than 5.5 minutes in any season at KU. Quintrell Thomas, Tyrone Appleton, Royce Woolridge, Merv Lindsay, and Milton Doyle all transferred out of KU. Those guys all left KU because their future prospects for playing time were slim at KU and they wanted to go somewhere else that offered them the opportunity for more playing time which is something I don't begrudge any of them for. The jury is still out on 4 of the 3 star players as Jamari Traylor, Landen Lucas, Zach Peters, and Frank Mason have yet to play a regular season game at KU. A lot of what happens with these 4 players will largely depend on how recruiting plays out this year and next.

If Self lands the type of players we hope he does, then I would fully expect to see Landen Lucas and Frank Mason end up transferring. Jamari Traylor is not a likely candidate to transfer because he has already used his redshirt and would only have 2 years to play at a school because he can't redshirt during his sit out season so he would appear to be on track for a similar type career as Jeremy Case. Zach Peters appears to be the #4 big this year based on the Europe trip which means he can expect to see between 5-10 minutes this season. Landen Lucas is going to be somewhere between the #5 and #7 big this season which means he will only see garbage time minutes this year. When Frank Mason gets here, he will be the #3 option at best given the number of sub 6' Self will have. That won't change change until Mason's 3rd year on campus when Tharpe will be gone. We all know Self will continue to recruit to make this team as good as possible so let's say KU land Tyler Roberson as part of this class (or insert whichever big you prefer) and it becomes likely that Lucas will never be a starter at KU. Frank Mason has a similar path to playing time as Lucas except that he could possibly work his way into the starting lineup for his senior year, but again that is dependent upon who Self can land at PG in the 2014 class because that could end up making Mason a career bench player if Self lands a 3-4 year PG in next year's class that plays from day 1.

Ben Simonett 9 years, 7 months ago

ha! i just posted similar data 4 posts down.

Great minds and such!

Ben Kane 9 years, 7 months ago

don't know if it has already been around but great interview with coach Self.

TexasHawk44 9 years, 7 months ago

Yes, yes... Why trust Self? We should all Trust in HEM and Jaybate, the learned First Citizen and Senator of KU Land... Opinions are like a-holes we all have them. And there a plenty of them on this board.

Ben Simonett 9 years, 7 months ago

How about this stat for the recruiting slump doubters:

Bill Self's 3 star recruits by class:

'03 - Jeremy Case '04 - Brady Morningstar '07 - Tyrel Reed '08 - Quintrell Thomas '10 - Royce Woolridge

'11 - Braenden Anderson, Merv Lindsey, Jamari Traylor '12 - Landen Lucas, Zach Peters, Milton Doyle '13 - Mason(so far)

Bill Self has brought in more 3 star recruits in the last 3(more like ~2.5) recruiting classes then he did in his first 7 classes combined!

People like to point to White, Ellis, Greene, and Frankamp as proof that no slump exists. Yes, the staff is still getting players, but its also a fact that it is getting an a larger amount of lower ranked players than it use to. Every scholarship that goes to a lower ranked player is a scholarship that could have gone to a contributor.

Side note: take a look at those list of names, notice anything? Awful lot of kids that didn't make it to senior night(and not because of the NBA). Of the ones that did make it to senior night, they weren't contributors until their junior/senior years. What happens to the program if the recent wave of incoming 3 stars aren't productive until their juniors?

kellerman411 9 years, 7 months ago

I couldn't agree more. People talk about Bill finding the "right" guys. The problem with that theory is that, uh.. Bill is offering to all of these high ranked kids that you guys say "aren't right", they just aren't coming to KU.

Coaching can take a team over the top but even Bill has to have elite talent to win another Big 12 title. If I read one more person babbling about how he willed last year's team to the title game, I am going to explode. Last year's 5 starters had an average ranking of 95.6/100 coming out of highschool as ranked by ESPN. That is nearly a 5 star rating across the board. Not to mention they were all upperclass guys. There were no Mcdonalds AAs but they were all pretty close.

Next year, I think we're definately going to be alright at 1, 2 and 3 but we will be riding solo at 4 and in my opinion, we do not have an individual on the team right now who will be capable of playing the 5 at the type of level needed to win another Big 12 title. It hurts me to even say this but if Bill does not land an elite 5 in the next couple months, the Big 12 streak will end at 9.

Ben Simonett 9 years, 7 months ago

I'd take too much talent over not enough every time.

I don't think you can correlate being a 4-5 star recruit to being more likely of being kicked off the team. Kids are dumb no matter what their ranking.

We had 3 years after the title where recruiting was just fine and the talent was very deep. No transfers, no removals. Those early transfers and removals were more likely due to the coaching/program/culture change being implemented than too much depth.

texashawk10 9 years, 7 months ago

Who was the 7th? I know from the 2003 class that JR Giddens was kicked off the team and David Padgett and Omar Wilkes transferred. From 2004 CJ Giles was kicked off the team and Alex Galindo transferred and from 2005 Micah Downs transferred. That's only 6 players though and I don't see who the 7th is. Am I missing someone or did you accidentally type 7 instead of 6?

texashawk10 9 years, 7 months ago

Okay, just checking because I wasn't sure if I had missed someone or not.

soapisurfriend 9 years, 7 months ago

I guess we cannot deny the fact that Mason has played with/against high level talent and in big games. He led the state of VA in scoring with the likes of Andrew White and Cat Barber. For those interested, MMA has an exhibition game next Thursday against tradition powerhouse Oak Hill.

RockChalk26 9 years, 7 months ago

Is it just me or does it feel like we are forgetting about Anrio "Rio" Adams? I think dude will be a beast for us come his sophomore year. I wouldn't be surprised if Self gave him the keys to drive.

And of course, Selden at the 2 and Randle at the 4 :)

DCLawHawk 9 years, 7 months ago

Most of those mocking the "trust in Self" crowd above, aHEM, are totally missing the point. Having such trust doesn't mean thinking Self can do no wrong. Trusting in Self just means believing that: (1) HCBS will not offer a scholarship to someone whom he does not think worthy of a scholarship; (2) HCBS will not lie to players to get them to sign with KU; (3) HCBS will work as hard as he can every year (unlike Roy) and everywhere (unlike Roy) to bring the best possible recruiting class to KU.

I believe Frank Mason was recruited in line with these three principles, and I for one will welcome him with open arms. By the way, unfavorably comparing any kid who is about to start his last year of prep ball with the stats and accomplishments Sherron Collins put up after four years at KU is neither illuminating nor particularly clever.

texashawk10 9 years, 7 months ago

There's a big difference between what you just described and some of the people who "trust in Self" that everyone who signs at KU is going to step up and be an impact player from day 1.

Your first point is the one the "trust in Self" crowd tend to cling to the absolute hardest because most of them do not follow recruiting all that closely. I will concede to those people that recruiting rankings are not always the be all end all, but more times than not they do give a pretty good indicator of a player's career path at a place like KU and more than half of the players ranked in the neighborhood where Mason is have transferred from KU after one year and that is an indisputable fact. It is also an indisputable fact that Frank Mason was at best Bill Self's 8th choice based on the 7 other PG that were offered scholarships by Bill Self that are all ranked significantly higher than Mason. Wisconsin commit Bronson Koenig is the next lowest ranked PG that had an offer from KU and he is ranked 70th in this class which is 61 spots ahead of Mason.

Your second point is the most like reason why Self isn't landing some of these highly ranked players. Very rarely has Bill Self had an opening in his lineup that was tailor made for a freshman to come in and play immediately. That's not saying a freshman can't come in and play immediately because we've seen a handful of them do that over the past few years, but rather that Bill Self has lesser ranked upperclassmen who are more fundamentally sound that an incoming freshman would have to earn the job from.

For your third point, that's true to a degree but Self and his assistants all have their territories they know and have connections to that we've seen quite a few players from over the years. We've seen a handful of players from Oklahoma and OKC area, we've seen a few players from the Seattle area, we've seen quite a few players from the Chicagoland area, and we've seen quite a few players from the DC/Baltimore/Philly/NJ/NY corridor to go with the local kids. The majority of players who have come to KU under Self have been from these regions with a handful that are from elsewhere.

Jack Wilson 9 years, 7 months ago

DC: Really an excellent post -- your position on the "trust in Self" is different than the "trust in Self" crowd I'm referring to. Much like texashawk10 said.

I mock the trust in Self crowd (affectionately) because they immediately, without a real thought process, proclaim any signing to be terrific. They then deflect any criticism of any move by relying upon the "trust in Self", "you're not a D-I basketball coach", and "you couldn't do Self job", etc., stuff. "Self is God" stuff.

The flaw I see in your logic is point number 1. History shows that coach Self will fill open scholarships with potential OAFs, guys that we on this message board identify as transfer candidates, that end up transferring. You say "worthy" of a scholarship .. I get that. But "worthy" for what purpose? To play? To hang around 4 years and graduate? Or to fill a back up spot, a break the glass in case of emergency, a player that we'll recruit over, a player that isn't really going to stick.

The four guys that I have suggested as transfer candidate/guys that won't stick over the past year plus .. Lindsay, B. Anderson, Traylor/Peters/Lucas, and Doyle. I lump Traylor/Peters/Lucas together as I've said one of the three will go (as a note, I said one of Anderson/Traylor would go in the spring of 2011).

It was not rocket science .. and I mentioned that "I" said they were transfer candidates .. many others did too. That stuff was easy to identify.

And that's the heart of the "trust in Self" discussion. I do trust coach Self. Wouldn't trade him for any other coach. Period. But he isn't flawless. He makes errors in judgment. And .. hold your breath .. he's human.

And to your point #2 .. I would suggest the evidence supports you. But I am firmly convinced that Self misleads players by pumping up their ability to compete for playing time, and for a role on the team. Something he can easily say is true .. that if Doyle comes in and is the best player, he'll play .. but in Self's heart, he knows is a minimal possibility.

As an aside ,, texas pointed out Koenig .. which is why I have said Mason is the 6th or 7th choice .. Mason was our 7th if we include Koenig, but like with Jordan, I don't know deeply were in that game. Mason was easily Self's 6th or 7th choice.

GabrielMichael 9 years, 7 months ago

Don't fool yourself... Randle is going to UK. He said he'd like to play with the twins. A brother of one of his coaches told me last year he wouldn't go to KU.

ku1otaku 9 years, 7 months ago

"A brother of one of his coaches..."

Hahahaha...sorry, I just had to laugh when I read that.

Miguel Colón 9 years, 7 months ago

I think we need to full court Selden and Pray and I mean Pray we can get him or Gordon or Roberson. I think the kids coming to Late Night are coming for a good time but are going elswhere. Remember the KU/Mizzou game when all those recruits came and none signed? Or how about the legends game when Walker and Freeman and others came, who did we get out of that? There is something out there about Kansas or its perception that is killing us with these recruits.

texashawk10 9 years, 7 months ago

I could see Bill Self ending up with 2-3 scholarships for the 2014 class depending on McLemore. I know a lot of people aren't fans of this practice, but Bill Self will have no problem recruiting over lesser players on the team and forcing them to transfer elsewhere.

TexasHawk44 9 years, 7 months ago

How does the KU program survive without the wisdom of all of these basketball recruiting gurus. Let's do the math:

Bill Self - 1 national championship. Jaybate - 0; HEM - 0; BennyBob -0 Bill Self - Head coach of major college basketball program Jaybate - 12 year old short bus rider with a thesaurus and too much red bull with an inability to shut up. Ever. HEM - Former JV coach; current driver's ed instructor with a loathing for brevity Bennybob - jaybate's other brother, Daryl. Second verse, same as the first


Go root for the Tiggers, you gumps ...

ku1otaku 9 years, 7 months ago

Wanna know what is arrogant? Thinking KU is "too good" for player ranked #131 in the country. That is the definition of arrogance!

Jack Wilson 9 years, 7 months ago

TexasHawk44 -- Nice. But you forgot one .. "Bill Self -- Perfect." Please say it for me. "Bill Self -- Perfect."

Is he perfect, yes or no?

Ben Simonett 9 years, 7 months ago

in this analogy, am i Jaybate's older or younger brother?

I've always wanted an older brother!

TexasHawk44 9 years, 7 months ago

Arrogant opinions are rampant on here. Just tiring to hear the same whining song over and over but people have a right to be stupid, you are right. And stupidity is nearly always free.

Bob Zielinski 9 years, 7 months ago

Those who are slighting Frank's ability because he is listed at 5'11 and 180 might consider the fact that Pierre Jackson from Baylor is listed at 5'10 and 180. Now, he is probably heavier than that now but who wouldn't want a player like Jackson on KU's team?

TexasHawk44 9 years, 7 months ago

HEM - he is not perfect. Was your JV squad undefeated in '98? Is that what this is about? You want a stature at the Fieldhouse?

Better buy some sculpting clay, Mr. Elite.

It is a joke that people on here think that they are so smart and wired that they honestly believe that they could do a better job than professionals. Probably the same person who thinks that by reading Wikii they could do a better job performing open heart surgery on their brother-in-law than a certified surgeon.

Pefercet? Nobody is. But your arrogance and pompous grandstanding is bordering on perfect.

Cannot wait for your next sewage of "wisdom" for your blathering followers. Jaybate is an obvious and weak poser compared to Mr. Elite. May the masses wash your feet for you, oh enlightened one.

Ben Simonett 9 years, 7 months ago

Who's said we could do a better job? all anone has said is that the job currently being done by the professionals isn't as good as they use to do.

I'm sure I couldn't get a top 5 recruiting class if given 20 years to try. But Self has shown that he can, and it's been a long time since he did it last.

TexasHawk44 9 years, 7 months ago

Perfect, even. Self is not. I am not. And you certainly aren't either HEM.

KEITHMILES05 9 years, 7 months ago

Pretty obvious we need another big or two and there are very precious few left out there. Selden, Emblid, and Randle.

As for all these guards it is obvious to me Self isn't happy with what he currently has and is stock piling.

I like the pedigree of Mason as he sounds like a workhorse and isn't expecting anything from Self. These blue collar types have something to prove. Look at Tyshawn. Adams isn't a PG and other than Tharpe and Frankamp there are none for the future.

I don't worry much about the guards as Self has a way of developing them even if they aren't 4/5 star rated.

It is a HUGE deal to any kid who wants to be on the court to be able to play sooner rather than later, at least for the vast majority. This is probably the bigger reason these kids pick other schools along with proximity for family. Entitlement is a big issue these days instead of having to work for something. Plus, kids are schooled in the ways of every coach and unless you are a HIGHLY touted and rated 5 star Self very, very, very selden will start you as a freshman.

Saying that I am encouraged with what Mr. Mason says and hope he believes what he says. Keep your nose to the grind, learn, hustle, stay out of trouble and your time will come.

Kevin Huffman 9 years, 7 months ago

I think the perfect balance coming in for this recruiting class (I know some would say he had A. Barber & C.Jones rated higher) would've been, along with already having the committments of Frankamp & B.Greene, additional additons of a PG, a SG/SF type and a PF/C type. - I think the perfect fit for what we'd've wanted at PG and he sure seemed to talk us up a lot was De. Jackson. Having said that I can't remember us every landing a recruit out of IN before. In the Roy or Self eras. The perfect SG/SF type woudl seem to be Selden....not to mention the fact he could even play some PG in a pinch....we seem to remain in the running with him (for now). Randle could've worked at least at PF for that last spot (all signs seem to point to UK). The next best fit would be either K.Shepherd (who seemed set to be coming here) or more of a project in Embiid.

It would seem like so long as we still land Selden & Embiid OR Randle then I would still given them a grade of B+ / A- for this recruiting class....probably B+ if it's Embiid and A- / A if it's Randle.

So all in all even if we don't "wait around" for Randle, if we sign BOTH Selden & Embiid here sooner on - I'd DEFINITELY be happy. In the off chance that we can get Randle, Lucas would probably have to redshirt or something.

Embiid only and we're looking at more like C+ / B-. Embiid and no Selden but say we get J. Young (I see little chance of that...seems Mich. St. bound).....hmmm, probably still a solid B.

Jarred Latta 9 years, 7 months ago

Frank Mason better be something if he is coming out and saying "I think I can do as well as Sherron did at KU." First of all, Sherron was ranked top 10 of the 2006 class. Frank, you are ranked 131st of your class. Let's get real now

Tony Bandle 9 years, 7 months ago

Having just spent 20 minutes reading this string, I've got to say, right-wrong-indifferent, black-white-shades of grey, up-down-all around...the quality of the posts whether vitrolent, humorous, sarcastic, sincere, well-thoughtout, reactionary or just plain gross is of the highest quality!!!

The one commonality is a deep-seated devotion to Jayhawk Basketball and thus, probably to the horror of many of you, bottom line....we're all on the same side!!!! :)

Robin Smith 9 years, 7 months ago

HEM, jaybate, bennybob, and any other realists, recruiting afficionados, or general anti-"trust-in-Selfs"

I want to augment this whole discussion here a little bit; pull back from the hard focus to a wider shot; add a new layer of perspective to this. I want to question our relationship to the team, meaning, each of us as members of a fanbase relative to the human beings who are the team and staff.

Follow with me for a second. I'm not critiquing the veracity of what you say, because I'm with you and I agree with everything you have to say, though, jaybate, I think it would be wise if you took the high road and refrained from the name-calling and bickering :D

OK, so pre-2008 our fanbase was fanatical but humble having had to endure nearly 20 years of bashing and debasing from other fanbases who scoffed at history and Kansas. We witnessed other fanbases, like Kentucky, who were raving lunatics -- they chased off Tubby Smith for ONLY bringing them one title. We might call them an 'entitled fanbase'. I recently criticized some Kentucky fans saying, there is a reason we call children who get everything they want, "spoiled".

Well I recall that immediately following the 2008 title we began discussing (immediately; like days) on these boards the NEXT title. After waiting 20 years since the previous one, many said 2010 or 2011 or 2012 would be the year again. We were euphoric and experiencing catharsis and wishing never to return our state of being the humblest of the so-called bluebloods.

What I'm getting at here is that our expectations and our egos have become inflated. I agree that we should desire to see the team we root for succeed, but at what cost? And I'm meaning in a larger scope here, as in, moral philosophy and the well-being of our personal souls. I find the Kentucky fanbase to be rife with fans who appear to be genuinely odious, but I doubt that that is true about them in general, outside of this special context. In other words, the fanaticism of sports is corrupting them as people, lowering them to say horrible things, if only within that particular realm. Now I don't mean to single BBN out, but they are simply the most rabid fanbase, and of course, all populations have their bad representatives. I feel in the years since 2008 we have seen a proliferation of odious sentiments in our own fanbase.

Robin Smith 9 years, 7 months ago

All right, stick with me just a little bit longer. To the people I addressed initially, I am not calling you the bad representatives. I think you are very reasonable people, very smart, well-informed, and skilled at making your points. But what I'm wondering is whether it's healthy or smart or good to relate ourselves to the team and the people who comprise that team. The intense expectations and criticisms are almost certainly a result of viewing the team as being in service of ourselves. Rather than simply loving the team, enjoying the team, and wishing the team well; we want US to succeed, WE want another title, and that level of success WE tasted in 2008 is the only thing that will satisfy US. This kind of thinking leads to the pure objectification of people, the players, the coaches, the recruits. This kind of thinking leads to chasing a good man out of town (Tubby Smith) ruining another man's career through absurd pressure & expectations, backroom deals, and smear campaigns (Billy G, with the help of his own problems to be sure) and finally to hiring an outright dirty man who will do whatever it takes while letting you be ignorant of his (our collective) inethics (you know who I mean here).

I refer you to this excellent article, which articulates these concepts in another situation, but which illustrates them very well.

On the other Mason article there was a first-time poster from VA who only left two comments and most of them expressed hurt and indignation at what was being said about a REAL PERSON that none of us know. I suspect that if he was not Frank himself it was a friend or relative.

Let's re-evaluate the way we talk about these things, the way we relate to the team, before we hurt someone, alienate someone, fire someone (like we do in Football), and before we demand someone who will cheat to appease us. Let's temper ourselves in all regards. Let's try to rein our intelligence and knowledge with some heart and wisdom.

Robin Smith 9 years, 7 months ago

I want to be clear that I addressed you guys initially because I wish to engage you in this discussion rather than implicate you as the objects of my postings. I don't see any of you saying anything offensive or disrespectful (overly much), but I think some of the sharp critiques and elevated expectations, bespeak a lessening humility of the fanbase at large, and potentially lead down a bad path.

Ben Simonett 9 years, 7 months ago

Interesting read. a lot of things to consider. couple of things that popped into my head immediately

1) For the most part, our criticism are aimed at the recruiting staff, not the recruits themselves. Self makes millions, he's a big boy and can take the criticism. The kids are inoocent, heck who wouldn't take a scholarship offer from KU if they're only other offers are from Townson or FIU. its not their fault the recruiting staff was put in a place to have to offer them.

2) I don't think it's possible to judge an individuals personal "obsesion"(for lack of a better word) with a school/program or how much they identify their self worth by their affiliation with that school/program from reading a message board. This is a KU sports site. I happen to be an electrical engineer who dabbles in economics and likes to draw. what am i suppose to do on this site? talk about electromagnetic interference. Austrian v Keynesian economic philosophy, and shading techniques for graphite? no you come here to talk about KU basketball. being a frequent visitor/poster says nothing of the individual. personally.

3) I would say the overly obsessive individuals who refer to the program as "we" and "us" are the ones that blidly just cheer for the school and hope for the best every season. it takes a level of objectivity and removal from the situation to recognize that it is just a basketball program and Self is just another coach to criticize it/him as we do.

ku1otaku 9 years, 7 months ago

I realize everyone likes to mention the Towson scholarship offer. But he did have offers from Maryland, Virginia Tech, South Carolina, & Alabama as well.

RJ King 9 years, 7 months ago

Robin, I applaud you for using your real name. I don't, but I post as though a glitch in the world wide web might suddenly expose my name, address, phone number and photo. If all posters did the same, we'd have a lot less swag and likely more thoughtful discussion and respect.

Everyone scratches their heads over why recruits don't choose Kansas. Does it occur to people that these recruits and their parents probably scan these boards? If you had a basketball prodigy who would be living far away during the next 2-4 years, wouldn't you check out everything about that potential situation?

As a parent - or recruit - I might decide college would be tough enough without having to battle some of our more vicious, sarcastic, and insulting posters.

For the smart-aleck posters who bash an 18-year-old kid for his presumed lack of skills - have the courage to use your Real Name before you accuse someone else of being "too small.".

Ben Simonett 9 years, 7 months ago

If a recruit or their parent makes a decision on where to send there kid in anyway based on what a bunch of annonimous people on the internet are saying, they need to have their heads examined.

No 18 year old kid or their parent should give a d*** what anyone on this board's opinion is.

HawkKlaw 9 years, 7 months ago

I know this thread has kind of died down, but I have a theory on Bill Self and his "recruiting struggles": It's taken me a little while to piece it together, so forgive me for the long-windedness, but I don't think it's just Bill Self and KU who are struggling. Schools like Duke and UNC are also landing lower-caliber recruits now than they used to (with some exceptions, like KU getting Xavier Henry and Josh Selby). The cause is the NBA's one-and-done rule.

Hear me out: Before the OAD rule went into effect, players either jumped straight to the NBA or went to college for at least a couple of years. There weren't nearly as many OAD players back then. Yes, there were some, like Carmelo Anthony (he was a OAD before the rule went into effect), but not nearly as many as there are now. Most of the 'Melo-caliber players jumped straight to the NBA.

The OAD rule has flooded the college basketball market with better, short-term players, like ol' Unibrow last year. If there were no OAD rule, he would have easily went pro out of high school. Also, television covers more programs now than ever, which gives OAD players the option of choosing a school outside of one of the top programs in the country, while still getting noticed on a national scale. Lastly, with only one year of college required and the possible threat of academic ineligibility looming, many players choose not to attend the top programs who have high academic standards, like KU and Duke (we all remember the other side of that, like when Calipari helped Derrick Rose, and probably many others, skate through the SATs when he was at Memphis).

As for Bill Self and KU: Before the OAD rule went into effect, Self was landing his fair share of 5-star, Top 20 recruits (Rush, Chalmers, Arthur, etc...basically all the rotation guys from the '08 squad), as well as a few 4-star, Top 100 recruits (Sasha, Darnell Jackson). This is what everyone points to when they say that Bill Self used to get better recruits than he does now. Since then, the amount of 4-star, Top 100 recruits has increased (Frankamp, Greene, White, Adams), but the 5-star, Top 20 recruits just aren't choosing KU anymore.

My theory is that this is happening because most of the 5-star, Top 20 recruits nowadays want guaranteed PT, few academic hurdles to overcome, to be treated "special" by people at the university and to be quickly/easily catapulted into the NBA. At KU, Self can promise they will be rock stars on campus with the student body, but Bill Self won't promise PT if it isn't available and the academic standards at KU are fairly stringent. If a player cares very little about education (like the vast majority of those 5-star, Top 20 recruits) and is looking for guaranteed PT, KU just isn't the place for them. They're going to make millions of dollars in the NBA in less than a year - it's easy to see why an education just isn't that important to them at that point in time.


HawkKlaw 9 years, 7 months ago

What you say is true, but going to school at KU is no walk in the park. I know KU has been lowering their standards recently (probably to get more students, to in turn bring in more money). But it's tough there. I know it is because I went to college at a couple of different schools - KU was, by far, the toughest. I know that the student-athletes have it easier than anyone, but it's still not incredibly easy to graduate from a place like KU.

HawkKlaw 9 years, 7 months ago


So where do those 5-star, Top 20 recruits go nowadays, you ask? As everyone here guessed, they go to Kentucky, mostly. And when Calipari was at Memphis, they went there. If they don't go with Cal, they tend to go to schools with less-stringent academic standards.

So what does this mean for Self and KU? He does miss out on his fair share of 5-star, Top 20 recruits, but he still gets guys like Perry Ellis, a 5-star, Top 25 player who strongly values his education and who will probably be a Jayhawk for 3-4 years. That is exactly the type of player that a coach like Bill Self is looking for nowadays.

And he also gets guys like Connor Frankamp and Brennen Greene, who are both 4-star, Top 30 players who value their educations and who will be Jayhawks for 4 years.

On top of that, he still lands guys like Andrew White, Anrio Adams, Zach Peters and Naadir Tharpe, who are all 4-star, Top 100 players that will, you guessed it, be solid players at KU for 4 years.

This is not a "Trust in Self" post. I do trust him, don't get me wrong, but evidence also shows that he's doing the best he can with what his options are. He certainly hasn't gotten worse at recruiting. If anything, he's refined his approach. Sure, he gets turned down by a lot of the 5-star, Top 20 recruits. But he doesn't realistically expect to land most of those guys (one of those "it's always good to offer, but I doubt he'll accept" sort of things). He knows that they're just looking for a springboard to the NBA, which is not something he cares about. Bill Self cares about developing players and preparing them for whatever they do after they stop going to school at KU. That's not going to change any time soon, and I can totally appreciate that.

Would I like to see 5-star, Top 20 recruits at KU? No question, we all would. But think about it this way: The 5-star, Top 20 recruits nowadays (especially the Top 10) are players that, before the OAD rule, would have probably went pro out of high school. Nowadays, those next tier, 5- and 4-star, Top 30 recruits (Ellis, Frankamp, Greene) are the same types of players that used to be considered 5-star, Top 20 recruits. So when you put it in that context, Self is still landing very high-caliber recruits.


HawkKlaw 9 years, 7 months ago


I just think we all need to take a step back and realize that there are a lot of things going on behind the scenes in college basketball (to put it as mildly as possible). Bill Self is doing it his way. Calipari has his way. Calipari gets better, short-term teams, no question. But he has to rebuild every year and if he misses out on one or two of those top-recruits, his teams become beatable very quickly. And I'll take KU's 3-4 year players over any other schools' 3-4 year players, any day of the week. Kentucky doesn't have guys like Elijah Johnson, Travis Releford and Jeff Withey on their squad. Those types of players, who value hard work and education, go to schools like KU and Duke. This is not to say that every 5-star, Top 20 recruit doesn't work hard or value his education, but when you think about it logically, it's easy to see why the NBA paycheck is of more importance to them.

Is it better to have great 3-4 year players or to try the Coach Cal route and have the top recruits every year? We've seen it work out once in favor of Self and once in favor of Calipari (in the National Championship games, that is). The moral side of me feels better about winning it Self's way, but the KU fanatic in me wishes that Self would just throw his morals by the wayside and go after guys like ol' Unibrow last year. There are certainly pros and cons with either method (like possibly having to vacate a Final Four or National Championship...the best part of Self's method is that we don't worry about vacating seasons here in Lawrence).

Curtis Stutz 9 years, 7 months ago

Some stats for those with troubled souls. 1 in 8 top30 players that have committed in the class of 2013 chose KU. 12.5% of them. Actually it's 1/7.5 if you move Vonleh into the top30 and bump Ojeleye, so 13.33%.

2, number of top30 recruits from class of '05 committed to KU at this point in recruiting. UK, UF, KU only 3 schools with 2 top30 commits at this point.

55 minutes/game, number of minutes returning for '05 class to compete for playing time with. BTW Christian Moody returned more minutes than any other player for '05-'06.

113 minutes/game, number of minutes returning for this year's freshmen class to compete with for playing time. A group of freshmen with Rivals rankings of #24, #36, #51, #98, #137 and #141.

Are you getting how impressive it is to have this much talent coming in to compete with returning players like EJ, TRel, W, KYo, Wesley and Tharpe that played 57% of the minutes on a National Runner-Up team? Predicted returning minutes for next season 61-62. With BMac 90-91. Compared to the amazing class of '05 (Rush/Chalmers/Wright and Downs who didn't last long) it's still a tougher sell going into next year, considerably more difficult if BMac returns. If he bolts it's going to be easier for Self to pick somebody up in the spring. If he stays, does KU need another small next year?

With 2 top30 players already in the class and 15 top30 players yet to decide, I'd say people need to chill. Self may get commits from more players after Late Night, or it may take until May to get another commitment. Point is life is good and don't hold your breathe throwing a hissy fit just yet. It should be a very good class, but if it's not quite up to the standards of the '05 class it's not entirely surprising. Either way there's absolutely no reason to be upset (are you kidding me! upset?), about getting a commit from Frank Mason. Glad to have you Frank, keep working hard, then work harder, 'cause it only gets tougher from here.

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