Saturday, October 6, 2012


Column: For first time since 1800s, KU football no longer has all-time winning record

Kansas head coach Charlie Weis watches from the sidelines during the fourth quarter on Saturday, Oct. 6, 2012 at Bill Snyder Family Stadium in Manhattan.

Kansas head coach Charlie Weis watches from the sidelines during the fourth quarter on Saturday, Oct. 6, 2012 at Bill Snyder Family Stadium in Manhattan.


Podcast episode

Press Conferences & Post-Game Interviews

KU coach Charlie Weis talks after 56-16 loss to Kansas State

Kansas coach Charlie Weis talks to reporters following the Jayhawks' 56-16 loss to Kansas State on Oct. 6, 2012.

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Box score

KSU 56, KU 16

Discussing the present state of Kansas University’s football team is too depressing, so before looking into the future for potential relief, a look into the distant past is in order.

On Halloween in 1891, before sixth-year senior tight end Mike Ragone started his college football career, Kansas defeated Missouri by a couple of touchdowns to even its all-time record at 2-2. The next week, Kansas won at Washburn and has had more wins than losses ever since.

Until now.

Kansas State’s latest domination of Kansas, 56-16, Saturday in Bill Snyder Family Stadium made KU’s all-time mark 573-573-58.

A loss Saturday in Memorial Stadium against Oklahoma State would give Kansas more losses than wins for the first time since its all-time record was 1-2 in the three-game 1890 season, with a loss at Baker, a victory at KC YMCA and a revenge victory against Baker.

Kansas went into a Nov. 22, 1952 game at Missouri with 80 more victories than losses, lost that one, 20-19, began a steady decline, but still managed to keep a winning record until now.

So Mark Mangino wasn’t entirely accurate when he uttered his famous quote, “Anyone can have a bad century.” It was more like a bad half-century that with the exception of much of Mark Mangino’s seven-year reign spilled into the 21st century.

After a second half in which K-State outscored Kansas, 35-2, it came as something of a relief when a reporter asked first-year coach Charlie Weis how the latest loss to the in-state rival could impact recruiting. It enabled him to talk about the future, which always seems to be easier to view with optimism than the present.

“Well, if I were a recruit I would want to come play for us,” Weis said. “Could get on the field pretty quick, don’t you think? I mean there are two angles when you look at recruiting now. One angle is how the teams are doing. The other angle is, you want to play? I mean, you watched the game, right? Come on, let’s go.”

Weis makes a good point. Other coaches have winning traditions to sell, but that doesn’t always have the allure of immediate playing time.

Any elite high school offensive lineman could see immediate playing time for himself after watching KU senior quarterback Dayne Crist follow his best half with a second half in which he was sacked more times (three) than he threw completions and completed as many passes (two) to defenders as teammates.

Ditto for every other position aside from running back and quarterback, where redshirt Jake Heaps is the starter in waiting.

“I mean, it really doesn’t have to be that difficult sometimes in recruiting,” Weis said. “These guys all want an opportunity to come in and play and they want to be difference makers. You watched out there today. There should be plenty of positions that I should have people standing in line. Maybe they’ll even be calling me. I might not even have to call them.”

Barring Weis stringing together a series of phenomenal recruiting classes, it could be a long while, if ever, until Kansas regains a winning all-time record, given the outrageously explosive state of the Big 12.

The favorite doesn’t win every game in college football, but if it wins the remaining seven on KU’s schedule, the Jayhawks will finish 1-11. No other conclusion could be reached when the game ended, and it started with so much promise.

In the first half alone, a defensive end caught a pass and a holder completed one. A punter ran for a first down and a receiver took several snaps at quarterback. Clever play-calling repeatedly sucked the defense in one direction to set up an opportunity on the opposite side of the field.

For one entertaining half of football, a hazy view of a better future for the KU football program headed by Weis snuck its way into the present. The second half turned it into a cruel tease, but a welcome tease nonetheless, as was Weis pointing out a silver lining on the recruiting front.


Jayhawk1116 9 years, 7 months ago

Just when I thought things couldn't get worse...

squawkhawk 9 years, 7 months ago

Just wait til Weis leaves in another year or two.

Robert Brock 9 years, 7 months ago

Inept. Scatterbrained. Hapless. Confused. Bizarro.

kureader 9 years, 7 months ago

Keegan, I swear ... a Mizzou or KState sportswriter couldn't do a better job of throwing even more cold water on KU football than you do. You're like clockwork.

actorman 9 years, 7 months ago

I'm curious, kureader: what exactly was he supposed to write, how the sun'll come out tomorrow???

amatxjayhawk 9 years, 7 months ago

I gotta believe Keegan has had the outline for this one in his drawer for a while. I see him grinning, wringing his hands like a greedy undertaker anticipating a high dollar funeral. I see his grin widen when the day finally came when he could fill in a few blanks and loose this sadistic crap on us. What a puke.

actorman 9 years, 7 months ago

See my comment above to kureader.

Man, you people are pathetic!!! Kill the messenger, eh?

I'm interested in the fact that KU now has an all-time .500 record, and it was an appropriate thing to write about. What exactly did he write that he shouldn't have?

Cora Smith 9 years, 7 months ago

I hope finding a kicker is a priority. Momentum changed when we missed the field goal. Bad Karma. Obviously at half time the team did not get a pep talk. That was a meek and mild three and out. A quarterback who is not afraid to fail and a couple of D backs that can stay with their man is what this team needs.

jhox 9 years, 7 months ago

One of the K State players commented about the satisfaction of watching your opponent quit. That's harsh, but exactly what happened yesterday. Our defense quit. Our offensive line quit. Our QB is as innacurate, so much so he may actually qualify for a $60,000,000 contract from the Chiefs.

Instead of game planning, our coaches would be better served spending all of their time recruiting because until we get bigger and faster linemen, on both sides of the ball, we can forget winning any Big 12 games.

I sure hope Bill Snyder retires soon, because I'm sick of him punking us in the second half every time we play them. If there has ever been a better coach at making halftime adjustments, I've never seen him.

april28 9 years, 7 months ago

I saw no quit in them at all. I saw a missed field-goal from just beyond extra-point range, 4 QB turnovers and a back-breaker on a kick return.

Effort wasn't the issue.

jhox 9 years, 7 months ago

Please, April 28, those second half holes KSU's line was creating were wide enough to drive a truck through.

ArgyleJayhawks 9 years, 7 months ago

Wow, Weis just rolled his whole team under the bus with those quotes. Great leadership!

ArgyleJayhawks 9 years, 7 months ago

Seriously, it is hilarious that Weis was on Twitter saying "if he doesn't defend his players who will" then he has quotes like this. Unbelievable.

Jack Wilson 9 years, 7 months ago

For those who bothered to watch, Weis had a terrific game plan. The first half demonstrated how prepared we were. The second half demonstrated the difference in talent. Snyder made adjustments at half, which you would expect, and talent overwhelmed. Much like the KSU/OU game last season.

If Weis will stay 3 seasons, you'll see the change.

squawkhawk 9 years, 7 months ago

KSU does NOT have better talent! They ARE better coached. KU has more than double the number of kids from Texas while KSU has twice as many Kansas kids. Dwayne Crist was a five star QB out of high school who played at Notre Dame while Colin Klein was a two star QB who went to KSU as a receiver. John Hubert was a two star RB that no one else wanted. Snyder finds diamonds in the rough and turns them into star who play together as a team. This my friends is coaching.

Bville Hawk 9 years, 7 months ago

I can't believe that some of you insist that KU has talent comparable to KSU's. It's just not true. Have you compared how many players KU has in the NFL to the number KSU has???

Generally speaking I think we are close to them talent-wise, but there is a big discrepancy in several key positions. Until we have some coaching continuity and these holes are plugged we are going to be at a disadvantage. It's going to take at least 3 years.

Lucas Town 9 years, 7 months ago

Any idea why this game means so much to KSU? They have 56 kids on their roster from Kansas. KU has 26.

jhox 9 years, 7 months ago

I agree that Weis can get the job done, but it is going to take an incredible amount of recruiting effort to turn this mess around. I also agree his first half play calling and game plan were masterful.

Our defense looked worn out the second half, and they had spent very little time on the field the first half, so that's tough to explain.

vd 9 years, 7 months ago

"You will get immediate playing time, unless your a QB. I already have my QB starter for the next 4 years. No need to compete for that job, since I'm the smartest person in FB when it comes to the quarterback. I taught Tom Brady all he knows." said Charlie.

Dirk Medema 9 years, 7 months ago

There are only 2 yrs of starting QB lined up, which is just about perfect for a young QB to come in and learn from a pro.

vd 9 years, 7 months ago

"I could tell Crist was twice the qb of Webb, so I told Webb to leave. Stats are meaningless to me. I knew Doherty could be our kicker, so I ran off one of the top kicking recruits in the nation. I know alot, just look at all my Super Bowl rings." said Charlie.

Dirk Medema 9 years, 7 months ago

ran off the kicker? Now you're just being purposefully ignorant.

Bville Hawk 9 years, 7 months ago

dagger108. vd is a devout ksu troll (has a purple cob up his arse to prove it).

Clarence Haynes 9 years, 7 months ago

I haven't done any empirical analysis, but it seems as if KU has a good season, roughly every five years. If that is the case, based on winning the Orange Bowl during the 08-09 season, we have a shot next year! Just saying!

Al Martin 9 years, 7 months ago

The Orange Bowl season was 07-08. Sorry to burst the bubble.

Clarence Haynes 9 years, 7 months ago

Stand corrected, but also that is why i said "roughly"!

holbigmac 9 years, 7 months ago

What do you think!?...Dr. Zenger doesn't get paid in September, October, and November!

Dirk Medema 9 years, 7 months ago

Have a read of the other articles (TY LJW for now including all the sports.) and you'll see that Dr Z's plan to make KU competitive across the board is working even if it isn't evident on the football field.

Brad Avery 9 years, 7 months ago

It may be four or five years before KU has a winning record for a single season. Forget about the all-time record, We won't catch up, at least not in the near future, especially after a 1-11 season in 2012. .

Dirk Medema 9 years, 7 months ago

"It was more like a bad half-century that with the exception of much of Mark Mangino’s seven-year reign spilled into the 21st century."

Wasn't it 8 yrs (2002 - 2009)? From what minimal research I've done, it also appears that there were 4 losing seasons to 3 winning seasons and one 6-6. That means that most/much/majority of the seasons contributed to the decline. Even the overall record (+2) did little to impede the flood, so can we someday stop the orange-zest love-fest. It was a great season, which is the norm for KU football the last half century - 1 or 2 good seasons but mostly below average, but Mangino's reign (of terror?) wasn't the solution.

Al Martin 9 years, 7 months ago

I wonder how many of you bashing Keegan for this article are relatively young. I’ve been following Jayhawk football since the Orange Bowl loss to Penn State in January of 1969, and this article pretty much mirrors my current attitude. Understand that I don’t use my fan longevity as any evidence of superiority; quite the opposite. It strikes me that continuing to follow this program as I have done is a form of insanity :-(.

Yesterday’s game felt like so much of my Jayhawk history. During the game, just out of curiosity, I tallied up the records for my Jayhawk years. We’ve lost 87 more games than we’ve won during this time. Of the 43 seasons, in only 10 have we won more than we lost, and 6 of those were 7 wins or fewer. The 2007 season was a gift of a lifetime, and I knew it at the time, but then I fell into the fan’s thought process that it was a harbinger of better days. I recognize now that the following seasons have not been a failure to capitalize on 2007’s momentum; they have been a return to normalcy.

History tells us that Charlie’s program will end in one of two ways: he’ll be fired (likely), or he will have mild success, which will so astound the college football world that he will be hired by somebody else (see Gottfried and Mason). My guess is that Charlie will leave town with his tail between his legs, but it won’t be because he’s a bad coach. The weight of Kansas football will just have been too much to overcome. It’s a telling fact that a coach we still eulogize went 50-48. I know that K-State is an example that it can be done, but it is far and away an exception. Programs that rise from levels this low to become perennial powers are very rare.

I’m sure I’ll get blasted here for being not being a “true fan”, but that’s hogwash. I have the sickness. I’ll follow the team, go to games when possible (I drop the ninety bucks and wear the colors every time the Jayhawks are in Austin, lord help me), and watch them when they’re on. I make the trek up to homecoming every year, but now that I think about it, it’s Lawrence and friends that brings me back, and certainly not an expectation of good football. For all we bitch about Memorial Stadium, it’s a very fine place to spend an autumn afternoon with friends, and I’ll do it whenever I can. I have simply lost the capacity to expect us to win.

Dump on Keegs if you want, but it’s a realistic outlook. We are Kansas football. And that’s not a good thing.

Robert Brown 9 years, 7 months ago

Excellent analysis. The first season I started following KU, was the 1968 season and vividly remember the Orange Bowl loss to Joe Paterno coached Penn State. I always thought we would be back. The next year, we were ranked in the preseason and finished 1-9. It has been mediocrity every sense, nothing sustained. Fambrough, Moore, and Fambrough again each had one decent season our of four, If you look at the records, Glen Mason has the best stretch of sustained success, he actually has winning conference records over a five year stretch; Mangino has one winning conference record.

KU would have sunk to below .500 quicker if weren't for the watered down non conference schedules that were prevalent the last 20 years. I remember watching Wisconsin, Kentucky, Oregon State, Texas A&M and UCLA come to Lawrence instead of a school from the Missouri Valley or the MAC which has inflated our record the last 20 years. Three of Mangino's bowl seasons occurred because of success against cupcake non conference opponents

Al Martin 9 years, 7 months ago

Now that I think about it, losing a bowl game because we had too many men on the field defending a PAT should have been all the warning I needed.

eastcoasthawk 9 years, 7 months ago

Well stated. I, too, have the sickness and will be witness to this year's team vs. Texas and WVU. It's painful again this year. However, I can see the difference between Gill and Weis preparing the team and it is massive. If only we had better play out of two key positions this year we would have a better record and those of us with the sickness wouldn't be so downtrodden.

JayHawk_from_SWKS 9 years, 7 months ago

Kansas State football is under .500. What's the point of this article exactly?

squawkhawk 9 years, 7 months ago

Yeah but they own us and at least they have been relevant for the past 20years. That I believe is the point.

actorman 9 years, 7 months ago

The point is that being at .500 for the first time since the 1890's says something about where the program is going. I think it was an article that needed to be written.

If you want all roses and sunshine, read a children's book; I'd rather know the truth.

Brad Watson 9 years, 7 months ago

Whats the point of bringing up such a stat.......come on man....only write stuff thats positive or move to another town....its bad enough...thanks for a local reporter to throw salt in the wound...go back to boston or rochester if you are going to write stuff like that....Keegan..we like you...but come on

actorman 9 years, 7 months ago

It's hard to imagine that anyone can truly be that stupid (unless you're being sarcastic, in which case I apologize).

Do you seriously want a local reporter to only write positive things when a team is terrible?!?!? Do you seriously want to know nothing about where the program stands?

Like it or not, KU sucks in football. Sugar-coating things and being a homer (to a ridiculous, nauseating degree) won't make that fact go away.

CHEEZIT 9 years, 7 months ago

No worries mate! K-State all-time 475-613. Snyder won't live that long!

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