Saturday, November 12, 2011


Things just not working out for Turner Gill at KU

Kansas head coach Turner Gill pleads for an interference call against Baylor after a pass to KU receiver JaCorey Shepherd during KU's last drive of regulation Saturday, Nov. 12, 2011 at Kivisto Field.

Kansas head coach Turner Gill pleads for an interference call against Baylor after a pass to KU receiver JaCorey Shepherd during KU's last drive of regulation Saturday, Nov. 12, 2011 at Kivisto Field.


Podcast episode

Press Conferences & Post-Game Interviews

KU coach Turner Gill

Kansas coach Turner Gill talks after his team's 31-30 overtime loss to Baylor on Nov. 12, 2011.

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With one more successful play from his offense Saturday, Kansas University football coach Turner Gill could have ended a seven-game losing streak, made irrelevant blowing a 21-point fourth-quarter lead and drawn praise for having had the guts to fly in the face of conventional wisdom.

It didn’t work out for him, of course, and Baylor won Saturday’s game in Memorial Stadium, 31-30, in overtime.

Not much has worked out during Gill’s two years as the football coach.

Not the decision to leave the names off the jerseys. Not the word of the week.

Not the beginning, a 6-3 loss to FCS opponent North Dakota State in his debut.

Not the end, a losing streak of eight games and counting.

Not the blowouts — his teams have lost as many games by 42 points or more as they have won by any margin — and not the 5-17 record, 1-14 in Big 12 games.

Not even big leads — 20-0 against Texas Tech, 24-3 against Baylor — work out for Gill, who took Saturday’s setback particularly hard.

One bold play could have made this one different.

After Jordan Webb beautifully executed in understated fashion a fake handoff to James Sims and the linebacker bit leaving open tight end Tim Biere for a touchdown on the KU offense’s first overtime play, Gill had a decision to make. Kick the extra point, tie the score and give the ball back to Robert Griffin III, who had turned back into RG3 in the fourth quarter after three P.U. quarters.

Asked why he went for the two-point conversion, Gill answered, “Momentum.”

Good answer, had he gone for it right away. But he called a timeout to set up a play. Think about what basketball coaches do — except for the most stubborn of them — to stop the other team’s momentum. They call timeouts. Gill called one on his own team. And then Baylor coach Art Briles called one. So much time had passed since Biere’s touchdown the sweat dried on the momentum. Time to kick the ball through the uprights and see if emerging star safety Bradley McDougald could come up with another big play.

Momentum has no official measurement, but it does have a point of origin. The momentum swings to a team when the sum of adrenaline in all the athletes on one squad flows far faster than the sum in all the athletes on the other. Adrenaline sharpens focus, enhances strength, instills endurance. It’s fleeting. It had fled by the time Jordan Webb threw a fade to the double-covered Biere on a day Gill recruits Darrian Miller and Tony Pierson rushed for a combined 219 yards and a touchdown (Pierson) on 32 carries.

Miller accounted for 147 of those yards, but wasn’t celebrating after the one-point loss. He knows it was Senior Day and he knows about the speculation swirling around his coach’s job security.

“I really try to not pay so much attention to it because I feel like, on the priority list, it’s not a team priority right now because we still have to finish our season and finish strong,” Miller said of the latter factor. “I think coach Gill will be here for a long time because I think he does great things for this team, even off the field. That’s one reason why I was so emotional today, not just wanting to play hard for the seniors, but also wanting to play hard for coach Gill. Because he’s such a great person, he makes you want to play hard for him.”

The tendency, be it with presidents, Army generals, football coaches, is to get blinded by numbers and want to deify the winners and demonize the losers. It’s a mistake to do so. Gill illustrates that as well as anybody. Joe Paterno, we’re learning, is a mixed bag of another sort for not slaying the monster in his midst. Some day, the rioting Penn State students will come to the realization that a winning record doesn’t equate to a winning football program in all areas.

It’s also a mistake to think that when Sheahon Zenger does what his job requires and lets Gill know he’ll be fired with a $6 million parachute, that meeting will be harder on Gill than on Zenger, who truly believes there is more to coaching than winning and losing, but knows that winning has to be part of it. It’ll be tougher on Zenger, no question. Gill is not a man defined by his job performance. Wherever his next stop takes him, be it in coaching or another profession, he’ll go to bed every night knowing he just finished another day of treating people well, a trait that comes easily to him. Is that such a bad lot in life?


Joe Ross 10 years, 9 months ago

I feel badly for Gill. I really do. But my sympathy stops at the point that I realize he is a football coach. One that is being paid a lot of money. To coach FOOTBALL. It saddens me as we come to the end, but he MUST go.

kranny 10 years, 9 months ago

Sadly, I have to agree with you. I was willing to give him 3 years but I simply don't think the aptitude is there for D1. There have been questionable in-game coaching decisions that leaves a guy scratching his head. The rest of the coaching staff with the exception of possibly chuck long isn't very good either. We stayed in the same prevent defense on 3 different series in the 4th and forced the kids to take on matchups that they simply couldn't defend and gave Griffin all day to pick the secondary apart with no pass rush or even a blitz. Gill I'm sure is a good man but he was hired to win football games, not to be a father figure. I'm sure keeping him would be more costly in the long run than buying out his contract. Note to Zeahon, no five year contracts for anybody.

Mike Barnhart 10 years, 9 months ago

Look at it this way; turner Gill wants to do it the right way and have a positive influence on young men. No reason he can't do that at the FCS level or Division II or even at the high school level. It's just not going to happen in an elite BCS conference!

Maracas 10 years, 9 months ago

I find it difficult to feel badly for a man who will make $10,000,000 over five years doing next to nothing as a football coach. He was hired, while given a ridiculous and scandalous contract, to help turn a program around and to win football games. Unfortunately he had nothing in his resume to warrant such a contract or to give anyone reason to believe he could even coach at the D-1 level. KU could have gotten a rah rah motivational speaker for a whole lot less.

Gill failed. And he's going to be rewarded handsomely for failure. The ridiculous contract is on Perkins and Gray-Little, not Gill, though. Perkins offered it, and Gray-Little signed off on it. Both should be investigated.

honk_for_hawks 10 years, 9 months ago

pretty sure Chancellor's only job relating to athletics is determining whether a coach is going to give a crap about academics. Considering just about everybody, Gill supporters and haters alike, think that Gill is a very good man who cares about making the players better individuals, I'm going to go ahead and say she did her job. So if you want to blame someone, blame Perkins. I still think Gill should get another year (Top playmaker Patterson injured as well as multiple other starters/major contributors, defensive coach resigned before season due to prostate cancer leaving inexperienced co-coordinators who've never been in that position before, and what else.....OH YEAH! OUR TEAM IS UNBELIEVABLY YOUNG! Say what you want about his coaching decisions, I'll admit some play calls have been questionable, but tell me, how are Gill's recruits doing? Darrian Miller? Anthony Pierson? Jacoby Shepard? The guy can clearly recruit, yet no one wants to let his kids develop. Instead we want to fire him, give the job to a guy like Leech, then when GILL'S players are older and kick a in a year or two, you are all going to give credit to Leech. Mangino left Gill next to nothing, but you all think this is OU or Texas or Alabama where we're going to get a bunch of 5star recruits and turn it around immediately. Maybe I'm in the minority right now, but for christ's sakes, you can not possibly expect a guy to build a team from nothing that fast. All of our best players graduated before he got here in case you forgot. Meier, Briscoe, Reesing, Stuckey...Tell me, What did Gill have to work with? get real people, KU football is NOT KU basketball. we don't have kids dreaming to play here. it takes time, stop being a bunch of whiny b***es

Jay_Hawkeye 10 years, 9 months ago

The reality is if Leach came in all of Gill's recruits would not matter. They simply would not fit the air raid offense. But do you know why many of us would love to see Leach here? Because he is able to "coach up" and win with less talent - just like Snyder. This would get KU relevant so players would want to come here.

There is a reason why Leach's offense set records every year but few of his player are in the NFL. Its the arguement that was used against his team every year. It's Leach's system why TTU won, not the players. Look what Tuberville has done with the same (or higher) level players - much less. With a hiring like Leach, you would have every HS QB and WR in TX lining up to come to KS to play and get in the record books (well those that cant go to TX or OU). His track record to be able to turn around a team like ours has been shown as has his coaching ability.

Leach's only flaws? He is weird. He needs to be paid what he is worth. We would have to be ready for the ESPN and other media onslaught (paid for by Craig James and Spaeth Communications). Then get ready to win.

Saguaro_Jayhawk 10 years, 9 months ago

Seriously?! If true, East Coasters are not very tuned into ncaa football.

Oregon State, Indiana, Minnesota, Colorado, Ole Miss, Duke and Kentucky would all be underdogs in a neutral site game vs Kansas.

However, it is time for TG to leave as there appears to be little hope he will reverse the football program's current state.

Clarence Haynes 10 years, 9 months ago

+1 First of all, let me preface this by saying that I live on the East Coast. Secondly, outside of the espn game day crew and maybe a few others traveling to Allen Fieldhouse (who probably return straightb back to MCI), half of these clowns do not know Lawrence and the KU football program's legacy. Thus, I have some big time reservations about their opinions being the last word! I do think that part of the problem stems from KU Athletics PR effort to promote KU sports nationally. As Saguaro says, many of the programs mentioned in his comment are suffering more than KU and given the level of talent, with a new coach, and few talent tweaks here and there, KU can be respectable again.

Ben Kliewer 10 years, 9 months ago

You guys are kidding me, right? None of those teams have set all-time NCAA records for futility. This Kansas team has set at least two.

boknowssports 10 years, 9 months ago

no one deserves a raise from 450K to 2 million a year. something is fishy there!

ahpersecoachingexperience 10 years, 9 months ago

This comment was removed by the site staff for violation of the usage agreement.

buckleyhawk 10 years, 9 months ago

In the shadows cast down by Penn St, I think Keegan actually has it right this time -- there is something to be said about how TG treats pretty much everyone he comes in contact with, and what kind of man he seems to be.

Unfortunately in such a black and white field as athletics, it doesn't matter...wins and losses (and even point spreads) are what it ultimately comes down to (excepting disgusting situations as we have seen lately), really good guy in general, but maybe not qualified for D1 BCS HC (at least right now).

Seth Nesmith 10 years, 9 months ago

We suck period! If Turner Gill would've showed that much emotion during his first game here as he did today, they would've shown improvements and they would be better 22 games later. But too little too late. Sorry coach gill. It shouldn't take almost 2 full seasons to get a fire lit under the team's and your own arse!

Eric Dawson 10 years, 9 months ago

Unfortunately TG has become the living essence of Leo Durocher's famous quote. When looking at future books of quotations, Leo's (as the sayer) and Turner's (as the classic example) pictures will accompany "Nice guys finish last".

I truly wish TG will, but he is simply not a competent D1 football coach, and needs to be let go.

sebuffaloes01 10 years, 9 months ago

Turner Gill holds him self to a high moral and ethical standard for which he should be commended. However, lets not lose sight of the fact he was hired to do a job; win Football Games and Graduate Student Athletes. You would be hard pressed to find anyone that could keep a job if they only did a fraction of it.

Bob Forer 10 years, 9 months ago

We should all aspires to high moral and ethical standards. However, in light of the Penn State scandal, I am beginning to wonder if that even exist in major college football. After all, wasn't Joe Paterno's claim to fame that he won "the right way."

Perhaps the NCAA is like the Mafia. The "win at all costs" attitude makes it impossible for a nice guy to survive.

As Jayhawk football fans, perhaps it is time to concede that a little less morality and a little more winning is in order. Hate to sound cynical, but major college football is what it is.

pepper_bar 10 years, 9 months ago

No. Even if the note is legitimate, it seems catty to post private correspondence here.

Kyle Sybesma 10 years, 9 months ago

This is a waste. Nobody cares about your beef with Tom. Agree or disagree with what he writes it's not his priority to make you feel good. This post has completely back fired on you. You look like a fool.

Geekinout 10 years, 9 months ago

Truly the dumbest post I've ever seen on here!

ahpersecoachingexperience 10 years, 9 months ago

Photo caption: Turner Gill speaks in tongues on the sideline of ku's game against Baylor.

pepper_bar 10 years, 9 months ago

Turner Gill isn't going anywhere. KUAC can't afford to buy out his guarantee plus pay the assistants to go away, and the booster money isn't there. There won't be a home run hire to help with attendance next year, so a buyout is pointless.

TG stays for at least one more year, and he has a soft enough non-con next year that he'll probably buy himself more time.

pepper_bar 10 years, 9 months ago

You're aware KUAC has $58,000,000+ in debt right now, right? They can carry the debt, but every dollar they add to their credit card balance makes their interest rate on future borrowing go up. At some point, KUAC has to stop flushing money down the toilet.

Andrew Michael 10 years, 9 months ago

you are aware boosters have plenty of money to cover his exit

Hammertoe 10 years, 9 months ago

It's not just a buy out for Gill but the entire staff. Buyouts for Gill plus the staff would seem foolish considering the debt at KU.

Eric Williams 10 years, 9 months ago

Not to mention most of our stud young players were recruited by Reggie Mitchell. Gill leaves, Mitchell leaves and possibly several transfers to boot.

I say give Gill one more year. Year 2 was his first year with any of his own recruits. It's not fair to tell a guy to win with someone else's system/players.

We've shown fight in several games this year (TTU, ISU, Baylor) and in the past 2-3 something has clicked in our defense. If Gill and staff leaves that mean an entire new scheme which means we start from scratch again next year.

kujhawkfan 10 years, 9 months ago

He will be fired after the MU game. When you say there isn't any money to buy him out you have to keep in mind that Texas A&M and Missouri have to pay huge exit fees to leave the Big 12 Conference. As it stands right now, both schools are required to pay over $25 million each. That would mean $50 million divided by 10 schools, which means KU would receive $5 million. There will not be any money coming in unless he is fired.

pepper_bar 10 years, 9 months ago

There is 0 chance A&M and Missouri pay exit fees that big. And KUAC can't afford to just turn around and waste whatever exit fee money rolls in by firing one mediocre football coach and bringing in another one. Isn't Self owed a $4 million retention bonus sometime soon?

kujhawkfan 10 years, 9 months ago

A&M and MU are pleading to only pay half that much which would still be $2.5 million to KU and I don't expect the Big 12 to let them off that easy. KU will be wasting money if they don't get this thing fixed. Letting Gill stick around for another year will just put them further behind. Football is the big money maker in college athletics and everyone including Bill Self knows that. If you think the A.D. is going to just sit back and let Gill play around for another year, then you're crazy. Go back and listen to what comments where made after the Kansas State game. There was no comments about standing behind our football coach and him having the support of the athletic department. The only words were, "we will get this thing fixed" and "we will never make a complete evaluation until the season is over and the body of work is in."

pepper_bar 10 years, 9 months ago

KUAC will be wasting money either way. The devil you know, the devil you don't, and so on. Gill will get at least four years, probably all five.

cg1029 10 years, 9 months ago

It is actually divided by 8 Schools neither TCU or WVU will get any of the exit fee

Eric Mitchell 10 years, 9 months ago

           Turner Gill will get at least 1 more season. Although he has not shown results in the win-loss column this year, what did you expect coming into this season? HCTG has shown to be a great recruiter in his first two classes under the circumstances(this years class remains to be seen due to only 13 scholarships) with getting a solid core of speed guys on offense and getting many O-Lineman. If the players still somehow BELIEVE at season's end, then I think he deserves at least a half season next year. I like the youth of the team and you have to admit that MM didnt really leave the guy with much skill position talent. The past two weeks have been very rough with a real chance of winning and then losing. Its been somewhat encouraging. If the trend continues in these last two games against A&M and Mizwho he will return. IMHO it really takes 3 years to determine if a coach is right for the job and actually building the program positively the way he wants it. But if KU is still struggling with blowouts next  season he needs be fired. One thing that could buy him some extra time is to win one of these upcoming games and to take a paycut this offseason.
         One can dream of the days when Bob Davis and Nate Bukaty are calling games. Here it is from Bob "Darrian Miller with a handofff up the middle....he's in the secondary.. Midfield..  THIRTY, TWENTY, TEN, FIVE, TOUCHDOWN KANSAS. Miller now owns the single season rushing record here at KU" Nate chirps in" He really just showed what a great athlete he is right there and was helped by tremendous blocks by Pick on the outside and Marrongelli in the interior. Wow, he is special." (Notice I really am in love with Miller as a player and his potential)

Rock Chalk.

lv_jhwk 10 years, 9 months ago

Prior to the first snaps of the season, I think most reasonable fans knew that a two win season was a strong possibility. As such, the idea of losses to Iowa State and Baylor were to be expected. The promise of a young group of players would lead to anticipation of success down the road.

So here we are...two victories seems most likely, the opportunities for wins the last two weeks have been encouraging (actually surprising today), and a good number of newcomers have shown a fair amount of ability. Yet an overwhelming majority of the same reasonable fan base is wanting/looking forward to/expecting a coaching change. Just goes to show just how complete of a job Gill and Co did burning bridges with the blowout losses in the middle of the season.

Eric Williams 10 years, 9 months ago

I'm being optimistic here, but we could beat MU. They lost Josey for the season.

rockchalkjjjhawk 10 years, 9 months ago

So, here's how I look at it. Keegan really backed the hiring of Gill. Basically because as everyone knows by now, Keegan only spews forth what someone else has told him. And when he got wind that Gill was the man, he went gaga trying to show his importance in saying that Gill was the man. So now, Keegan all of a sudden is championing the removal of Gill, so that KU will lose even more money that will never be replaced. I wonder just how much Keegan contributes to the university of KU? I wonder just how much of Keegan's hard earned money will go to helping pay off Gill? No, if Keegan is now saying that Gill should go (who I was against hiring in the first place), I'm thinking that the correct approach is for Zenger to keep Gill and save the cash.

After all, as I've said before, it's not like KU is going to be OU in a year or two's time with a new coach anyway. Even if there are 20,000 empty seats for two more years, that dollar figure is still in the same ballpark as the amount that KU would have to pay out to Gill. So let's say Gill is fired and given 6million in hopes of the new coach filling the stadium. If Memorial is filled, KU negates the loss of the Gill buyout but goes in the hole because of the new coaching contract. And the way of the bowl system today is that the attending university doesn't make as much as folks think. So, the way I see it, Gill should fulfill his obligation and try and win more than 2 games the next two years. If he continues to suck, that's just the price to pay for letting someone like Lew run rough shot over everyone.

William James 10 years, 9 months ago

I wasnt aware that Keegan backed the hiring of Gill. Do you have a link to any Keegan articles backing the hire? I do remember after Perkins hired Gill, Keegan released an article explaining why Perkins hired Gill, and the past relationship between the two men, but I don't remember anything Keegan did to back the hire. Actually, I remember after Mangino was fired, Keegan released an article stating who the top 3 candidates should be, and if I remember right Gill was not one of the candidates Keegan mentioned. Correct me though if I'm wrong.

lv_jhwk 10 years, 9 months ago

All that said though, does anyone still wish that Tuberville had been hired instead of Gill??

blackhawkjayhawk 10 years, 9 months ago

That is something I never, ever understood. A guy can't succeed in one of the prime jobs in college football but somehow he'll be successful in rebuilding a weak one? Along the lines of Tuberville, people were also bringing out Phil Fulmer as a candidate.

If Zenger pulls the trigger, he better have a plan to get get a good coach. After the Penn State mess, you can forget any of the character-issue guys like Leach or Tressel this year. June Jones is a guy I believe that we could get - and a guy who would want a job at a BCS school.

Mark Lindrud 10 years, 9 months ago

My family is from Tucson and everyone hates Stoops as a head coach. He has anger control issues. I could tell you stories that would make you change your mind about him.

texashawk10 10 years, 9 months ago

What makes you think June Jones is a realistic get for KU? He already makes the same amount as Gill, will be in a BCS conference next year with one of the better teams in that conference so unless KU is going to fork over $3 million per year at the minimum to get Jones (not going to happen), June Jones will never coach for KU.

Jeff Coffman 10 years, 9 months ago

TT had an undefeated season at Auburn...what are you talking about?

Jeff Coffman 10 years, 9 months ago

TT had an undefeated season at Auburn...what are you talking about?

mjhawkchalk 10 years, 9 months ago

Texas Tech lost 66-6 yesterday. Nice try though.

142466 10 years, 9 months ago

Gill's status is tenuous.

Had he won today and then have been competitive in both remaining games, he would return. During most of today's game, I thought he was setting himself up to have a decent chance of doing that. That path is now gone.

If he wins 1 of the remaining games, he returns next year. Unlikely to happen.

If he is competitive in the remaining games, but fails to win. What happens? A close call. I'd say it's 55 to 45 that he returns. (the Paterno situation helps him, since he stands in stark contrast to Perv State).

If the remaining games are blowouts, he is gone.

As has happened so many times in the Border Showdown game, the outcome of that game may well decide the fate of KU's coach.

jgkojak 10 years, 9 months ago

What's funny is its just 3 games that could have gone either way-

We win the first game last year (6-3 loss against a D2 opponent) then the good wins against G Tech and Colorado really have some staying power, and it looks like we're a little better off than we should have been.

And then this year- we win last week and this week (again, close games), and we're set up to maybe get our 5th win at MU... progress.

Nick Cole 10 years, 9 months ago

That is a lot of "if's" that didn't happen.

actorman 10 years, 9 months ago

The problem is that to pull all of those out, you'd actually need a coach who knows what he's doing.

Michael Sillman 10 years, 9 months ago

Turner Gill was a winner today no matter what the scoreboard showed at the end. Any coach that can keep his team together and motivated after the beatdowns suffered during a truly brutal schedule plus the unending venom from knuckleheads like Keegan and many of the posters on this site is doing a hell of a job.

Then he showed real guts going for the win today with the two point conversion. According to the experts on this site, Gill is not a competitive guy. Well, he looked pretty competitive today.

The bad stats for the defense have been skewed by a series of big plays like the three in today's 4th quarter. Nearly all of the 50 plus yard gainers by the other teams this year were the result of mistakes by kids with very little college experience under their belts. Those mistakes piled up the yards and the points. Next year, they won't be making the same mistakes.

If Zenger takes the easy way out by firing Gill to satisfy the media and impatient fans, he'll set the KU football program back another 5 years. There's no doubt that Gill needs to get better at the X's and O's but he has definitely mastered the truly critical aspect of coaching: building players of character.

Keep Gill and let's see what he can do next year.

Bob Forer 10 years, 9 months ago

I agree with you that Gill has done a fine job of keeping this team together considering the adversity that always accompanies a mediocre, losing football team. Perhaps it is attributable to the "character" he stresses in his coaching philosophy.

Nonetheless, character only goes so far in winning football games. If the X's and O's aren't taken care of, you end up with a losing team with plenty of character.

Your statement that "Gill needs to get better at the X's and O's" is very revealing. For the vast majority of his life, Coach Gill has been involved in either playing or coaching football at high levels of competition. He is nearly fifty years old. If he hasn't learned the nuances of the X's and O's by now, he ain't gonna.

The time for a chance will soon be upon us.

burnmu 10 years, 9 months ago

Keep Gill and let's see what he can do next year... How's about I save you the wait. Another year with Gill leaves the Jayhawks 2-10, if we're lucky than 3-9 or maybe, just maybe 4-8... Could you imagine how exciting that third season would be if KU went 4-8! Can you get anything for 2 million a year these days?

Mark Lindrud 10 years, 9 months ago

I do expect Gill to be back next year even if I have my doubts on his success, but I just hope if he returns he gets a new DC

Ben Levy 10 years, 9 months ago

Wait, we lost to a top 25 team by 1, held our last 2 opponents to season lows in points (regulation), have had a significant number of good starts to games before being overcome by superior talent, and your answer is fire the coach?

Nick Cole 10 years, 9 months ago

You are forgetting about the six weeks before this...

Eric Williams 10 years, 9 months ago

It's called progress. I guess we shoulda fired Mangino in Year 4 because his first year was horrible, right?

texashawk10 10 years, 9 months ago

Should've fired him after year 5 when he was 25-35 overall and 11-29 in Big 12 games. I realize the Orange Bowl season doesn't happen if Mangino was fired when he should've been fired, but KU may have been in better shape for the long term if Perkins had done what needed to be done when it needed to be done.

Jo Ann Ortgies Stork 10 years, 9 months ago

I agree! They lost by 1 to the 2nd best offense. Far better than the blow-outs earlier in the season. I guess that fact got missed somewhere--what was the point spread?

Stephen Young 10 years, 9 months ago

Coach Gill inherited virtually no Div. I talent once his rightly discredited predecessor left, and he has been able to bring in only one class of his own recruits--many of whom have been redshirted in order to build the program up the right way. It is slow and full of heartbreak in the beginning. But it establishes a foundation for later, greater, consistent success. Anyone remember 2006? Loss after loss, all in the 4th quarter; the next year, we went to the Orange Bowl! It would be insane to fire this talented coach without giving him a fair chance to fail or succeed with his own players.

Nick Cole 10 years, 9 months ago

I 100% disagree with 100% of your post. You sir, clearly do not understand football.

mjhawkchalk 10 years, 9 months ago

Slyhawk had a good post. I don't think KU will be 12-1, but they could go bowling. Give Gill time.

all_in 10 years, 9 months ago

The average of upperclassmen (juniors & seniors) for Kansas, K-State, Oklahoma, Texas, OK State , and Texas Tech is 45.3 (Kansas 34) , average seniors 19.3 (Kansas 14) , average juniors 26 (Kansas 20).

If my opponents, at any level, have more seasoned players to field against me, any and every game will be tough.

Thanks "Slyhawk" for showing some understanding of what is necessary to build a winner, 2 years is just not enough time. A coach is due the opportunity for his first recruited class to hit the field, I know that much. Anything short of that is a waste of endowment dollars. Or as "kujhawkfan" thinks, exit money will pay the bill, NOT!!

The kicker to it all......... I'm listening in as a parent of a recruit, and I'm appalled at the lack of consideration to the aforementioned. If you don't have to interest in the program developing and are more concerned with "win now", a new coach next year still won't "win then". He will have to develop his class of players over a 3 to 4 year period. So why should my son choose KU if the fan base is this volatile? Or is it that only the frustrated speak the most?

These words of disgust you express travel many miles and worry those of us that consider sending our young ones your way.

Doug Merrill 10 years, 9 months ago

all_in I agree with your concern, but you have to remember this is the internet, the writers here are often engaging in collective road rage. I have actually been impressed with some of the very reasonable comments (he deserves more than two years, the team has lost exactly the games we expected them to and - given the talent in the Big 12 - by the margins we should have expected, Zenger better have a better plan than just firing Gill to appease vocal fans and the media). Bottom line, as a KU fan since 1963 and a parent of three D1 scholarship atheletes, I can assure you that KU is an incredibly safe environment and a great education. I can also assure you that the VAST majority of KU fans are not represented by the polemic road rage we have seen so much on here over this season.

Dale Sprague 10 years, 9 months ago

Have to give a hearty second to dougmd. All sports aside, KU is a quality institution demanding quality academics. Whatever your boy takes away from higher education stays with him far longer than his activity with a sport.

You, and he, can't go wrong in choosing KU for the life and lifelong experience he will take with him from The Hill.

Shane Garrett 10 years, 9 months ago

However, sometimes activity in a sport leads in itself to a higher education and affords greater oppertunities in life. Do not over look what sports can offer.

Ryan Shelton 10 years, 9 months ago

The Orange Bowl year really spoiled a bunch of "fans" who patrol this website. Most don't really know how a program is built and the "win now" mentality prevails. I pray that Gill is given the time to develop his players, and that recruits won't look at the comments of these "fans" who are on a witch hunt. Quite a few are still bitter at the first loss last year and never got over it.

There are plenty of fans out here who still support Gill and look forward to the direction of the program, especially in the light of these last couple of games. We knew the underclassmen would struggle and get better throughout the year, and we are seeing this play out now.

escaped_labrat 10 years, 9 months ago


KU Football in a nutshell through the last 4 coaches:

Bad guy: Glen Mason Nice guy: Terry Allen Bad guy: Mark Mangino Nice guy: Turner Gill Bad guy: ???

Bring on the bad guy!

escaped_labrat 10 years, 9 months ago


KU Football in a nutshell through the last 4 coaches:

Bad guy: Glen Mason Nice guy: Terry Allen Bad guy: Mark Mangino Nice guy: Turner Gill Bad guy: ???

Bring on the bad guy!

Martin Hanna 10 years, 9 months ago

Kansas started fifteen freshmen today. Six red shirt and nine true. I challenge any coach to win with that young of a team on the field! Gill was left with little.

Mike Barnhart 10 years, 9 months ago

Your challenge has been accepted by Mac Brown! And last year by Bill Snyder, just to name two coaches from our conference without even thinking about it.

Steve Corder 10 years, 9 months ago

Don't even think about comparing the talent level with UT, and KU has no QB like K-State.

ahpersecoachingexperience 10 years, 9 months ago

Iowa State's freshman qb comes to mind along with TT's world shocking bcs busting upset win at OU.

Ashwin Rao 10 years, 9 months ago

He could have filled up the gaps with JUCOs, if experience is what you are counting on. He did have a year to do that. On the other hand, close to the end of the season, the "freshmen" kids had "nearly" a year under their belt, and we did put up a fight in last two games against ISU & Baylor. (I flip-flopped because I don't like our situation, but I still want to give Gill a chance!)

Kevin Long 10 years, 9 months ago

I get really sick of people talking about what Gill was left with! It's his team now!!! You probably the same people that still blame Bush for the economy too. Once you take something over it's YOUR baby!

danmoore 10 years, 9 months ago

Seems like a valid argument to me. If he was losing with good players you would have a point.

danmoore 10 years, 9 months ago

Seems like a valid argument to me. If he was losing with good players you would have a point.

chipmunk1956 10 years, 9 months ago

"...that meeting will be harder on Gill than on Zenger, who truly believes there is more to coaching than winning and losing, but knows that winning has to be part of it. It’ll be tougher on Zenger, no question."

Was anyone else confused by this last paragraph? Uh, so what is it, Tom? Will it be harder on Gill, or Zengher? Just when I was ready to laud TK for a nice article, finally... his true colors surface in his last paragraph.

Hawk007 10 years, 9 months ago

I was just going to post the same thing. I read that 3 times just to make sure I wasn't missing something. Come on TK, just terrible.

jayhawkboogeyman 10 years, 9 months ago

"It is a mistake to think that..."

If you had read the entire sentence, it's perfectly clear what he's saying.

Bill Pitcher 10 years, 9 months ago

True, Mangino got us to a minor bowl in his second year, but the administration gave him a good three years to get it going. "Character First," was MM's catchphrase, I believe. I could stand another year given TG's integrity.

Jayhawkintexas1973 10 years, 9 months ago

They didn't give him a good three years. He showed improvement the first two, and a lot of improvement. Three games we lost this year that Mangino wouldn't have lost.

Texas Tech, Iowa State, and Baylor.

That would leave one game left to be Bowl Eligible, and the next two are winnable games with a good coach. There are only three games that I don't think Mangino would have a chance in the 4th quarter to win, meaning down by 2 tds or less, and that is Oklahoma State, Georgia Tech, and let me correct myself, there were only TWO that we wouldn't have at least been in the game in the 4th quarter under Mangino.

Ryan Shelton 10 years, 9 months ago

I wonder if you can give a strength of schedule comparison.

texashawk10 10 years, 9 months ago

I think you better go recheck Mangino's history in close games, it ain't pretty. Missouri in 2009, USF in 2008, Toledo, Nebraska, Baylor, Texas A&M, and Okie St. in 2006 are all games in which KU had second half leads and failed to close out and get the win. There's several other close games that KU lost in which KU never had a lead such as Colorado, KSU, and Nebraska in 2009, Nebraska in 2008, Missouri in 2007 and these are all in the last 4 seasons of Mangino's tenure. Mangino was absolutely terrible in close games and the last two weeks have looked exactly like Mangino games with KU failing to win with perfect opportunities to do so.

actorman 10 years, 9 months ago

You are absolutely right, texashawk. And it's not just that KU lost close games but HOW they lost close games. MM was good at a lot of things such as choosing a position for a player that fit his abilities, developing players generally, and installing a creative offensive game plan. What he was absolutely, consistently, horrible at was game management and end-of-game decisions -- in fact he was one of the worst coaches I've ever seen at the end of close games.

Roger Tobias 10 years, 9 months ago

Turner Gill is a nice guy. Nice guys finish last. Turner Gill needs to stop being nice, except in the office and at home. He needs another year just because we have only two years of his recruits (apparently KU doesn't go for the instant fix of JUCO players--e.g. Bill Snyder. Seems to be working for KSU) Losing A&M and MU just means two losses to avoid. Shouldn't forfeit any windfall from them leaving to buy out Gill. Turner Gill needs to get tough with his players and coaches. Candy bars for good performance? Really? How about letting them earn marks on their helmets, for instance beaks (instead of buckeyes). Already anticipating the "Peckerhead" response.

minnhawk84 10 years, 9 months ago

Nice guys finish last? Tony Dungy would disagree with you, and so do I.

namder 10 years, 9 months ago

The money needed to send Gill on his way is there. Leave it at that. Zenger has deep pocketed doners that realize the implications of keeping Gill one more year.

okiedave 10 years, 9 months ago

I recall everybody calling for Mangino's head his first couple of years because he had a sorry win record. Then he won an orange bowl. The Chancelor discovered he was not "nice" and he was fired. It's hard to be a successful football coach at KU.

Steve Corder 10 years, 9 months ago

After reading most of these comments, I say give the man another year. If players can develop so can a coach. Zenger's closer than any of us to the situation, and I'll live with the decision he way or another. But I am not after Gill's scalp with the same fervor as many of these comments.

I know of no other KU coach, with a similarly dismal record in the 1st 2 years (along with a brutal schedule), not to be given another year.

IF T.G. can turn around this program with the integrity he has displayed then we MAY have a fine program for many years. Stick with a man through the darkest hours and you'll develop a fierce loyalty that will last a life time.

Or just go ahead and admit defeat and fire the whole lot of 'em and start over again. Let the football program's "swinging door" continue!

minnhawk84 10 years, 9 months ago

Minnesota would have a tough time beating KU. Jerry Kill team is really struggling, but he did manage to beat Iowa last week. Kill has already been given a raise and an extension on his contract ..... in his first year! I guess the UofM has a little more faith in BUILDING a program than many KU fans posting here.

Turner Gill needs more time. He didn't drop those critical passes yesterday.

troutsee 10 years, 9 months ago

Okay. I apologiize. I am a flipflopper. But sometimes things happen that cause a person to reconsider his thoughts, especially when those thoughts are expressed in anger, like, for instance, some of mine. I was a Gill supporter when he was hired, not because I thought he was the best hire, but because he was hired and, therefore, was the coach of my beloved KU, and by god, right or wrong, I was going to support him. Then came the NDSU embarrassment and the many blowouts over two years and I turned against him. However, and here comes the flip-flop, I have personally seen the last two games and there has been team unity; there has been organization; we have been prepared; and we have played well enough to win both games. A non-call of an obvious pass interference penalty at the end of regulation of this game may very well have cost us the game. I agree wilh Gill going for two. However, a fade to the tight end, a pass that Webb has never executed well (remember the TAM game last year) was a poor choice for a game winner. However, barring embarrassing blow outs in the next two games, I see a coach and a defensive coordinator who are improving as the year passes; I see a team that is coming together and playing with passion, effort, and preparation; and finally I see a team that is still playing for their coach. Therefore, I have flipped. Firing Gill at this time would be premature. I might flip flop again should we be blown out over the next two games.

The way I see it, our coverage of deep balls has been poor all year and we need a more athletic QB. One very good DT would also help. But, if we keep it together as we have over the last two games, I think we are headed in the right direction.

FLJHK 10 years, 9 months ago

I'm close, but not quite ready to jump into this same boat with you. I've mirrored your exact same sentiments over these two years. The thing that impresses me most is how he has kept the locker room intact. That has to be very difficult to do given the adversity this team has faced. I'm very interested to see how they finish the season and if they were somehow able to beat Mizzou it would be a very positive event.

Orangedog87 10 years, 9 months ago

Okay, so our football program has turned into a training program so that a highly paid 50 year old can learn how to coach football......the skills that he is being highly paid to do. I think that is why so many people are unhappy with this. And seriously, since there is no one around to coach the head coach, how is that training program going to work out?

From a lot of comments over the season on this site, there have been so many errors that do not seem to be due to the players or the age of the players.

I guess KU needs to decide if they want to have a competitive football program or a football coach training program.

Chris Condren 10 years, 9 months ago

Gill's team has looked moronic many times this season. Offense at Texas and Iowa State, defense in too many games to mention and special teams have all hurt the team effort. Poor organization and poor discipline have added to the belief the staff does not know up from down. Being a nice person is a good thing but being a crummy head coach means you get fired. Football irrelevance by the fifth or sixth game of the season is unacceptable.

Also fans have in large part quit support the team. It is time for a change.

Ashwin Rao 10 years, 9 months ago

I love the comment made here (close to the end) which i read "You’ve got to get it done. No excuses.” Same goes at KU... no excuses... if you don't get it done in 2 years (or 6 yrs in Bonnie's case), you should be out!

TwistedFish31 10 years, 9 months ago

Unfortunately, not a chance. mizzouri is going to want to leave the Big XII with a signiture blowout of their most hated rival. After the game, Gill will talk about the progress his players and coaches made over the season. That season ending at 2-10, 0-9 in the Big XII. And he will talk about how encouraged he is about going into next season. And I have a terrible feeling, that he'll be back.

MinnesotaJay 10 years, 9 months ago

I've been a flip-flopper on this Turner Gill topic, even though I haven't posted about it before. Prior to the last two games, I believed there could be no justification for sticking with him. Now, I'm willing to see what happens in the next two games before concluding that's the case. And, that doesn't mean that we necessarily have to win those games for him to be retained for another year.

The Big 12 is brutally tough! In this conference, a program that's rebuilding for the long haul, especially the way Gill is doing it, by establishing a solid foundation first, is going to suffer some blowout defeats. Period. To have expected anything different would have been unrealistic. A ship that's reversing course is still going in 'the wrong direction' during the early and middle stages of its turn.

Of course, I won't be deciding anything. And, if we regress to blowout losses in the next two games, it's hard to imagine there'll be any support remaining for Gill.

bjejayhawk69 10 years, 9 months ago

Baylor came in flat just like OU did. Inspired senior day as well (Steven Johnson is a stud). Gill finally showed some fire on the sidelines. The problem is it took him 2 years to show that. He doesn't have to cuss and swear but football is played with emotion and intensity. He is not consistent with that.

Coaching football also requires game in and game out proper game preparation and in game and half time adjustments. Those aspects are also done inconsistently. We have talent (and cupboard was not bare when Mangino left) to play with a lot of teams in the Big 12 and KSU should be one of them. The problem is there is no consistent game planning and in game decision making. Throw in the lack of proper off season strength and conditioning and this what we are left with. The 4th quarter defense was atrocious. We went from being aggressive and even bumping them close to the line of scrimmage with their receivers to the softest zone defense ever seen in Div. 1. These aren't mistakes BCS level coaches making 2 million a year can make. And it is a pattern that won't change. Gill will get out coached most of the time. Baylor's coach is not a genius, he currently has a stud QB who didn't come to play for 3 quarters. This game was a game where a Synder or any other quality coach would have beaten Baylor by 30+. We got a ton of breaks in that game and didn't bury them.

Nice guy but for 2 mil a year - we will be stuck in 1-3 win seasons with some occasional close games. I love KU FB and think we can be more than that. No one expects Orange bowl years every year but being in a position to qualify for a bowl game and beat our now only league rival KSU is not too much to expect. I don't ever see that with Gill.

Bee Bee 10 years, 9 months ago

Is that a picture of TG showing EMOTION on the sideline?? First time for everything I guess. I ve had that LOOK ALL SEASON! Welcome to the club, coach!

Jayhawkintexas1973 10 years, 9 months ago

That ref is the same guy that called two plays 40 yards away from him in the same quarter, and then missed the one that he was supposed to be paying attention to. It was an obvious PI. The refs were terrible in this game, and down the stretch it seemed the one ref had money on Baylor in this game. He should not be allowed to step back onto any field until they investigate him.

rockchalkhawk95 10 years, 9 months ago

I feel very bad for Turner Gill. I think he's a very respectable person. However, this is an industry built on results. I'm not convinced we've seen enough positive results to justify him continuing on as head coach. At the same time, KU is in a tough spot. Do you let Coach Gill stay on for another 2-10 or 3-9 season at a cost of $2 million dollars? But, if you can him, will a prospective coach want this job after one coach got fired for being mean and the latest coach got fired after 2 years? I'm starting to wonder if the best thing for everyone involved is to hunker down and have faith Coach Gill can get this turned around in the next year or so. I don't know if he can, but what choice do we have? I have a hard time believing Mike Leach, Larry Fedora, Kevin Sumlin or June Jones would want this job under these circumstances.

danmoore 10 years, 9 months ago

No decent coach will take this job. It will be another unproven commodity with no head coaching and/or BCS experience.

Stephan123 10 years, 9 months ago

The contract for services should have been in three year increments with pay adjusted upward every year and starting in the $750,000 range. Coach Gill had a very good negotiator and Mr. Perkins had too much optimism. Perkins was generally a good A.D. but took a gamble that he should not have. Maybe he had lost his edge and became arrogant with his own infallibility. Water under the bridge. Hard decision now faced by Mr. Zenger. Without all the variables being known, I would guess that Gill will be walking the sidelines in Memorial Stadium next year.

texashawk10 10 years, 9 months ago

Gill's negotiator was Jim Harbaugh's agent if you believe the story that Perkins was ready to hire Harbaugh, but Harbaugh wanted to coach the Sun Bowl that year and Perkins said no and gave Gill the contract intended for Harbaugh.

142466 10 years, 9 months ago

Successful recruiting and strong coaching ability, especially by the coordinators, make for a respectable football program. But for KU there is a crucial third factor in the football equation, a factor that we probably have little control over. That factor is our schedule, and our schedule is held captive by the folks in Austin, Texas.

KU will very likely not return to football respectibility until the B12 returns to at least 12 members. Huge factor. Under the current league structure, we have to play all the B12 football powers every year. If we can return to 2 divisions, with OU and UT in the other division, our FB schedule instantly changes from one of the toughest BCS schedules in the country to one of the easiest.

I am a huge fan of Mangino, but I will admit that under the current league structure he probably would never have gotten us to the Orange Bowl. Darn, I'm sad that I had to say that. But it's true.

The current schedule not only delivers rough Saturday afternoons, it also hinders our ability to attract a good coach. What proven head coach would be willing to sign on to a boat with a hundred holes in the hull, about to set sail into one storm after another.

Should Gill be fired at season's end? Well, tell me how many FB members the conference will have next year. If the answer is less than 12, it could be wise to retain him for one more year, thereby conserving our resources for hiring a descent coach when the conference returns to 2 divisions.

I, myself, am not yet sold on the idea set forth in this post. I'm seriously considering it. For me, I think it depends on the scores of the final 2 games. The A.D. is likely pondering all this, too. He decides.

gorillas76 10 years, 9 months ago

I get so tired of hearing people discredit KU's 2007 Orange Bowl team because they didn't play UT and OU. KU had a very good team that season, and didn't get the proper credit they deserved. Maybe they wouldn't have beaten those two teams if they had played them, but, we'll never know. They choked the MU game. They should have won it. They were without a doubt the better team. They then beat a very good VT team in the Orange Bowl. And somewhat convincingly at that. Mangino put together a great team that season in my opinion that could have played with probably anybody.

Kristen Downing 10 years, 9 months ago

I've flipped too. At least the scores of the last two games don't make me feel sick when they fly by on ESPN. That's improvement. A step back in the next two games and I will flip again. Next year, he has his own hand picked quarterback that is supposedly a dual threat quaterback. If no five win season next year, he should be gone.

hi_c21 10 years, 9 months ago

I just don't get it. KU was not very good at all until we had a handful of good years under Mangino. That spoiled the heck out the fanbase. Thinking a few good years will translate to inevitable eternal greatness.

Now I see people spread nothing but hate and say "As fans, we deserve a better football team. We deserve better than this." As fans, we aren't entitled to ANYTHING. We don't deserve ANYTHING.

When Coach Gill was hired, he was given a five year deal because we had a sense that it was going to take some of that to do well. At the beginning of the season, people only expected two or three wins. Am I right? KU got those two wins, and made these last two close. It was embarrassing for a while, yes. But it's clear that there has been improvement. Being a student at KU and having talked to some of the players, I know that the players love Coach Gill. They say he is a great guy and he really is a good coach, the players just don't have the experience and those not recruited by him were not a good fit for his system.

And who is to say Mangino's recruits get along with Gill's recruits? I'm not saying they don't, but isn't it possible that Mangino's recruits don't mesh entirely with the culture Gill emulates and the players he recruits?

Honestly, to be at yesterday's game and to see all the people clapping after the failed conversion showed me something. The people and true fans have respect for Coach Gill and for the team as a whole for having the guts to go for it. They showed support for Gill and for the great effort that the team put forth yesterday.

This team is on its way up. The night is always darkest before the dawn, and if we don't give Coach Gill one more shot next year, it may only get darker. This group of guys have faith in Gill. It's time we did too.

As fans, we don't "deserve" anything. Either you support your team, or you don't. And if you don't, are you really a fan?

flyingfinn 10 years, 9 months ago

Are you freakin serious...I suppose Manginos recruits don't have the moral fiber of Gill's recruits That is the most inane comment that I have seen posted to date and certainly a dis-credit to the Seniors that have worked their asses off for the program. It is up to a good head coach and we DON"T have one to mesh team mates together no matter their backgrounds.

hi_c21 10 years, 9 months ago

It was just a thought. One which never meant to be taken too seriously. I never said anything about Gill's recruits lacking morals OR them not working hard. Everyone on that football field, including the coaches, works very VERY hard day in and day out. Not even the main point I was highlighting. But honestly somebody needs to relax...

Randy Bombardier 10 years, 9 months ago

When Gill stated that he was here to win championships I thought that was either blind faith or arrogance, yet he didn't have that pride-fulness about him. So, I chalked it up to a child-likeness about him that believes in simple platitudes. When he took it a step further to "dynasty" I was really amazed. I thought oh my, this guy is really delusional. It took me a while to get over the dismissal of MM and get supportive of the new regime. I still think he is delusional. But, I also think he needs more time. This current class of freshmen needs to be taken to their senior year by Gill and Co. I don't want some other guy coming in here and getting the illusion of being better when it is simply that the "Baby Hawks" are maturing.

This staff can recruit. I would like to see what four or five years of this staff can do. Just get a decent DC.

Scott Oswalt 10 years, 9 months ago

You can't be serious.... No really, are you being serious? 2 or 3 more years with Gill? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

mahkmood 10 years, 9 months ago

MM has a 5-7 year, fans are complaining that we need a coach that can "take us to the next level". Lew does his dirty work and gets rid of MM. Now - it seems to me - the fan base would be proud and patting Gill on the back for producing a 5-7 season (something that MM produced on a fan considered down year). What is wrong with so many KU football fans!? They seem schizophrenic to me - maybe just bad football IQ. Gill's problem is not what MM left behind. I don't want to hear any more lame excuses. I think we should re-hire Mark Mangino, and leave the true problems for KU football out of our memory, 1) Lew Perkins, 2) Turner Gill's lack of BCS coaching ability. Boo-hoo, cry, cry, cry, MM was a "meany" to players and rude to parking-ticket employees. He weighed too much. These "reasons" for why MM needed to go were overblown by Lew so he could get rid of MM at a discount rate. Bring back Mangino! Bring back Mangino! Bring back Mangino! Do it NOW!

hawksfanatic 10 years, 9 months ago

First, that photo. Turner Gill being restrained by a ref? Second, my prediction. He will not be fired. He has one more year to get it right. If not, he's out of here.

bjejayhawk69 10 years, 9 months ago

Gill has 2 more games to prove we are "improving". If we get blown out by A&M and Misery I just don't see the "improvement" The Baylor and ISU games show some hope but more often then not it has been a KSU game or Texas game or OSU game or GT game where we looked like we should have been playing Pitt state. We need some consistency not the occasional competitive stretch of play where some want to think we are getting better. None of us are paid by our employers to occasionally produce good work and most if not all are getting paid 2 mil a year. KU needs to be in both of the next 2 games for Gill to have a chance to retain his job. Blow outs and we are delusional that he has what it takes at this level.

rob4lb 10 years, 9 months ago

In general, I think you have to give a coach at least three or four years to establish his own system. I waffle on what we should do. If KU fires Gill, they have to hit a home run on the next hire and there is no one out there, I believe, who 1) would come here and 2) would be a guarantee to transform the program. Leach will demand a huge paycheck and may not want to come here and will not guarantee success.

There is a lot of revisionist history with Mangino. He took from the bottom to the middle, the Orange Bowl year notwithstanding. In no other year did he have a winning conference record. Today a 3-5 record sounds great, but the program was clearly heading in a downward direction when he left.

I suspect that there is NO 'home run' candidate out there and Zenger will pressure Gill to make some coaching changes and give him another year.

thekansasboy1987 10 years, 9 months ago

Will it cost more to get rid Gill and his staff or keep them and having empty seats next year?

Kevin Randell 10 years, 9 months ago

I don't know....I would say that over the past two years we have an average loss of 8000-10000 fans per game. Now....keep in mind this year we had a couple of "buy one ticket get another free" promotions. But...lets just do a rough estimate: 10K empty seats X $50 a ticket (this is just a rough estimate not including tier 1,2, &3 pricing and big games like KSU, OU game prices) X 6 home games = $3,000,000 in lost ticket revenue for just THIS football season.

Keep in mind this does not count lost concessions, and apparel revenue.

So, I can't say it would cost more or less....but those are numbers to look at.

rob4lb 10 years, 9 months ago

You play six games a year. Let's say you have 15,000 empty seats a game and say empty seat is $100- and that is a high number. That's $1.5M in lost revenue which is alot less than coming up with $8M to buy out the coaches. I imagine most people pay about $30/ticket and maybe $20 more in concessions. So that $1.5M number is highly inflated.

rob4lb 10 years, 9 months ago

Let me correct my math. The $1.5M is for one game. I still think that is inflated, but for six games, the revenue loss may be close to the cost of a buy-out. That is, if you get a coach that can turn around the program.

dmg97102 10 years, 9 months ago

A lot of times, when a coach isn't winning, he restructures his buyout to buy himself another year. I say we give Gill another year, but restructure his buyout significantly if he doesn't produce...Like to a few hundred thousand if he doesn't win. (Charlie Weis did the same thing at Notre Dame a few years ago, and got another year). So Gill and KU get a chance to save face next year, and we're not on the hook for $6 mil. If Gill doesn't go for it, then just let him go this year, which is what everyone wants anyway.

Andy Tweedy 10 years, 9 months ago

The stadium seemed so quiet yesterday, despite a really good effort for 3 quarters and a close call at the end (KU driving for the win as the clock wound down). It was pretty disappointing that the crowd wasn't louder, but I graduated from KU in 1990 and I can't say this is anything new. What I'd be really curious to know is how many of the posters on this board are really ever into the team enough to drop the cash and attend, or does this board consist of the same fan base that, save 2007, just doesn't give a crap about KU football. To say that we don't owe the team our support if they aren't winning is a copout, it's at least in some ways a two way street. Regardless of who is the coach, this program needs to be energized by the fans, and I really hope we can get out and support our boys next fall, regardless of who is coach! I saw a post on here a few weeks back complaining about roundball tickets going unused, but I haven't seen one complaint about all the football fans who don't show up week after week. I realize I'm kind of just rambling here, but right now I'm really disappointed in just about everything KU football, including the fans!!!

David Atchley 10 years, 9 months ago

This is not a "let's wait and see if things work-out" solution. It isn't a "how do we get out of this contract." Its that complacency that is at the root of the mediocrity of this program. In a time of rapid change on the college football landscape, increasing television revenues and declining booster and fan support at Kansas for football, a swift and deliberate change must happen. Is there a fear that changing coaches might adversely affect the amount of wins?

Now more than ever, a head coach that has deep recruiting roots in Texas is required.

Kansas has a rare opportunity, normally not afforded to anyone, to step-up and fill the void of the departure of Missouri and Texas A&M. Both schools have recruited very successfully out of Texas. Athletes being recruited to Kansas will still provide their family and friends the ability to see them on regionally televised games, and also be able to travel to many of the Jayhawks away games during the season. This won't be the case with moving to the SEC.

Chad Morris, in his first year as OC at Clemson, has taken them to a 9-1 record and has put Clemson football back on the map. He did the very same thing at Tulsa in an equally short time. Morris has also won "3" Texas High School Football State Championships, and was the "Coach of the Year 11 times, and took Lake Travis High School (alma mater of Todd Reesing) to being ranked 8th and 9th nationally by Rivals.

Morris is on the very short list of coaching candidates and the school that hires him first, will get a player's coach, and every available assistant coach knows what this guy will brng to a program. Morris "is" Texas High School and can immediately turnaround a very fractured Kansas football program.

Jeff Coffman 10 years, 9 months ago

I like your thoughts about this assistant coach as an option. I'd prefer one with DC experience, but nice proven record and by my post, you will see that I think you can measure success in the first couple of years.

David Atchley 10 years, 9 months ago

Thanks, this guy is the next Bob Stoops, or Mack Brown, as far as immediately coming in and changing the culture, as well as the gift to recruit and develop the players he attracts to the program. As an OC turned Head Coach, he will be a good value salary-wise as Kansas transitions through and exit package to Gill.

rob4lb 10 years, 9 months ago

Or he could be the next Turner Gill. You never know what you are going to get. Also, why would he come here? History indicates it will be touch to be successful at KU. If he is that sought after, sounds like he can afford to wait for the right situation. I do agree that we cannot afford to throw alot of money at a new coach.

David Atchley 10 years, 9 months ago

You already have two intangibles in Morris that all the time in the world isn't going to emerge with Gill...Morris is hard-wired into Texas recruiting and players for Morris will walk through fire for the guy.

He will also work the boosters who I am sure have developed a case of alligator arms with this hot mess being played on Saturdays.

rob4lb 10 years, 9 months ago

You are assuming he would want to come here. Coordinators at major programs make good money and have the luxury of waiting for the right situation.

I live in Texas and Will Muscamp was rumored to be considered for multiple jobs but waited until the Florida job opened up. It has been a disappointing season thus far.

rob4lb 10 years, 9 months ago

Let's be honest, the football team has never performed consistently. Some of the recent records are actually inflated because of weak non-conference opponents. When I was in schools in the mid- 1970s, we played non conference games with teams like Wisconsin, Kentucky, Washington State for several years, UCLA compared to who we play today.

Looking at conference record, since the mid-60s (Hadl, then Sayers era), there has been only ONE five year stretch where KU had a winning conference record and during that stretch, KU was one game over .500. We've had almost 50 years of frustration. It is almost less risky to give Gill one more year than to roll the dice on another coach.

Jeff Coffman 10 years, 9 months ago

In the history of coaching, which coaches are successful after 2 years, and which ones were not, but given 3-4 years to prove otherwise. List of Coaches successful after 2 years: Bob Stoops (NC, second year), Nick Saban (LSU/Bama) NC 1st year back in Bama, Les Miles (at OSU and LSU), Urban Meyer (Utah and Florida), Snyder (both times at KSU), Gundy (OSU), Paterno (might not be timely, but undefeated his first year), Leach, Mangino (might not like him, but he did get to a bowl game second season), Carroll (2nd year), Chip Kelly (Oregon), Current Coach (Clemson, 1st year after Bowden left).
Enough of the good ones, let's talk about the coaches that after two years didn't perform and were given additional time to pan out, be prepared the list is long: Weiss (ND), Rodrigues (Michigan), Bowden (Clemson), Neuhesal (UCLA), Crowton (BYU), M. Stoops (Arizona), Long (our very own at SD), Colorado Coach (just got canned last year), Jimbo fisher is in his second year...anyone want another year, Terry Allen, Blake (OU), Miami Coach just fired last year, Butch Davis (UNC),

Anyways, I could go on, but I know you can judge a lot after 2 years and the message is clear. Turner Gill is merely incompetent (by the way he can be dismissed for cause for impcompetency).
A few notes about TG: Some have said he is a top recruiter, unfortunately his two best recruits aren't even practicing. He can't get them on the field. He hasn't recruited one top defender. This year when he has 12 (only 12) scholarships available, he hasn't been able to fulfill them yet. In addition, already one has backed out and some have threatened. This is part of the coaching and he clearly has failed in this area as well. Coaching he has been outcoached in every close game this year. He hasn't made one adjustment during the game that has been successful, unless if you think deferring to the third quarter is the best coaching move he has done. He didn't hire a defensive coordinator when one wasa needed. He hasn't taken over play calling duties when it was clear that the playcaller isn't doing their job.
Anybody who thinks we will pay the full $6MM to have him exit doesn't understand lawyers. He'll get a big payout, but it won't be the full amount. And by the way the estimated fees for the two teams that left is approximately $60MM/8 remaining teams. That is $7.5MM/team, KU has the money and the carrying of their debt currently can be serviced for $2.5MM/Year. Most companies would kill for the balance sheet that KU has. That is assuming that none of the boosters step up. I think they will.

Long and short...Gill is gone and we all know it.

83jayhawk 10 years, 9 months ago


You are going to look like such a fool when Gill is given another year.

Just let Zenger do his job and cut this personal attack on Gill out. It is worthless your vendetta against Gill. It is like some bully picking on a little kid.

There is no way, no way at all, that Zenger is going to risk his career by firing Turner Gill and bringing in a no name coach and cutting a check for $8MM.

There is zero chance Gill is let go UNLESS Zenger has a big name ready to step in. And make no mistake there is no big name that is coming to KU.

Thus Gill get's year 3 with a valid chance to to improve. If KU does not improve Turner is gone after year 3 and KU only owes him $4MM and the contract with the staff has expired. Then and only then will Zenger step out to hire a no name coach.

Keegan is going to look like an absolute fool once again. By the way Keegan knows nothing about football. Pretty obvious, hug?

Jeff Coffman 10 years, 9 months ago

Why you replying to me and referencing Keegan?

If you think I am Keegan clearly you are wrong just like you are wrong about TG getting a third year!

There are plenty of names out there that have coached, by the way my list could have included Turner Gill at Buffalo, an 8-6 year as you best year isn't successful, in my opinion.

And I would actually argue Zenger won't risk his career by keeping Gill. If he fires Gill, he will gain instant credibility.

rob4lb 10 years, 9 months ago

Who is he going to hire who will realistically consider coming to KU? I don't see KU throwing alot of money at a new coach.

rob4lb 10 years, 9 months ago

I think you framed it perfectly. The low risk option for Zenger is to give Gill another year. Clearly this was a bad hire especially when taking into account Gill's contract. He did not make the hire and can choose to make a change next year after setting expectations for 2012.

rob4lb 10 years, 9 months ago

Actually Bill Snyder did not make a bowl until his fifth year. He had one winning season in his first four years and in Year 4, he was 5-6, 2-5 in conference. There was improvement, but not earth shattering.

Another coach, who I think we would take is Gary Pinkel. At MU, he had only one winning season in his first four years and was 5-6 3-5 in conference in Year 4. I think his survival was in question.

Most coaches get 3-4 years to establish a program.

Jeff Coffman 10 years, 9 months ago

Pinkel will be gone in 2 years and no I would not take him. He recruited a good QB and road it well. He didn't do as good as expected this year, and in the SEC the next two years, he is going to get crushed.

I guess I was wrong with one of them, but the second time around he did well (Snyder).

Robert Brown 10 years, 9 months ago

Anyone would have traded MU's success under Pinkel for KU's success during the same time period.

142466 10 years, 9 months ago

It will be much easier to attract an experienced, competent, coach to KU if he is entering a 12 member, 2 division, league. Ideally, we would be in the north division along with KSU, ISU, WVU, Cincy, and Loui. (OSU might go to the north and either Loui or Cincy to the south.) Under that setup, a competent coach could get us back to .500 records.

Having watched the Big7, Big8, and Big12 for so long, I don't like the idea of the league going so far east to get new members. But WVU is already in. So we might as well get Cincy and Loui, too.

I suspect that the K.U. A.D. has a pretty good idea of who the likely expansion candidates are and when they're likely coming in. Right now it looks like the league will have no more than 10 members for next year's season, 2012. If the A.D. knows or thinks that there will 2 divisions for the 2013 season, then the safe thing for him to do is to retain Gill for one more year and then bring in an up and coming coach at the same time that the new 2 division structure is implemented. The new hire will feel confident that he will be given at least 3 years, and with an easier schedule.

There is little chance that next year Gill will deliver a much better record than this year. Conference schedule is just too brutal. I'd say that 4 wins next year is the upper limit.

What if he delivers 5 wins next year? Hard to say. All this realignment uncertainty complicates everything, because KU's long-term FB outlook is so dependent on whether or not there are 2 divisions. Maybe, beginning next year we could put Gill on the Walter Austin (former long-time Dodgers manager) formula. One year at a time, indefinitely. That's not how it's done these days, though. That's too bad.

rob4lb 10 years, 9 months ago

I agree with you that the 10 team round robin conference schedule is a killer for a team trying to elevate its program. To me, the expectation next year should be at least five wins and perhaps bowl eligibility. The non-conference games are with Rice, South Dakota and at Northern Illinois. I think NIU is a senior laden team this year so going 3-0 out of conference is not unreasonable. That means you got to win three conference games. Tech is a mess; Iowa State could be winnable and some of the other teams lose alot of talent this year.

gardenjay 10 years, 9 months ago

Turner Gill is a KU hero. He operates under adversity from fans and foes, but maintains his humanity with his players, and it shows by almost beating #25 in the country. That's progress. Go find yer coach all y'all that would come to Lawrence under these conditions and do as well.

Jeff Coffman 10 years, 9 months ago

I must say that I associate heros with the people that defend this country with their lives, especially those serving in the armed forces and defending the freedoms that I greatly appreciate. I enjoy the police officers and firefighters that keep my neighborhoods safe. I especially associate heros with my father, who served in the army during the Vietnam Era.

Please don't dilute the true heros in this world with this kind of writing.


gardenjay 10 years, 9 months ago

You don't like Turner Gill, see below.

I won't debate what a true hero is, since my experiences are clearly different from yours. So that's cool, start writing what a true hero is and educate all of us, but make sure to exclude civilians that battle adversity.

Robert Brown 10 years, 9 months ago

That's depressing looking at Gill's contract versus other more successful coaches. We should make Lew Perkins pay part of a buy-out of Gill's contract.

kscityrobber 10 years, 9 months ago

I like how half these people complaining are the ones that wanted the big guy out. Look back at my past comments. I TOLD YA SO!!!!!!!! This is not kansas basketball. You dont trade in Mr. Williams for Mr. self. No good coach wants the job at KU. So once again be careful what you ask for. I want the big guy back....

David Atchley 10 years, 9 months ago

The core problem continues to be the lack of commitment and genuine interest in the Kansas football program. If you read the excuses and rationale for the hiring of Gill, and then to endure the apologists who believe this winless attempt deserves 3-4 years will perpetuate the mediocrity that is Kansas football. This brand of football isn't worthy of the Big East, Big 10 and certainly not ACC or SEC worthy.

This brand of football and the 35,000 "rabid" fans who last till half time, before leaving to run more important errands, is Missouri Valley, WAC, Mountain West caliber of play and performance. How many major colleges allow people to sit on a hill and watch the game for free, or still have their team playing on a multi-purpose field? Oh sure, its "tradition." to do so....Really?

No college committed to a formidable, respectable football program, would look at this hot mess and say "we should give this till the end of the contract for this coach, because this really is showing promise." Nobody should look at this and think "who would possibly come to Kansas and take this job, are you kidding me? There are only so many major college coaching jobs, and there are way more capable, competent, coaches than positions available.

You don't have to dig much deeper than to read the apologists and the strive for average to understand the work ahead to turn this program into a BCS, Big 12 worthy team.

Geekinout 10 years, 9 months ago

I agree! KU really needs a new modern stadium in a new location in the worst way. I've always thought across Iowa St. on the grounds where they built the Lied Center would have been the most ideal with tons of parking for tailgating. Or, somewhere next to the Turnpike?

KU is very lucky to have such a rich tradition in basketball and a legendary arena to play in, which it still baffles me that the athletic department still hasn't realize it doesn't correlate to the success and tradition of the football program.

They just keep dumping money into the old stadium with renovations that don't make sense to me. The Anderson Complex is awesome, too bad it's attached to an old dated stadium with a track around it? That was genius! At least we have overpriced goofy endzone seating that no one fills to capacity. The Hill looks more and more like a Job/Career Fair or a place for solicitors to conduct business more than anything.

KU Football just isn't one of the KUAD's top priorities. It reminds me of a "Mom & Pop" business that I believe they're certain people in charge, making a cushy living and don't want that to change.

gorillas76 10 years, 9 months ago

I agree with your suggestion of Morris as a possible replacement. He could be a good fit with his strong ties to Texas high schools. I have, also, realized how much Texas could open up for KSU and KU with Nebraska and Missouri going to other leagues. A&M will still be a strong recruiter in the state, as well they should be, and maybe even stronger, but, it opens it up for some schools with a closer proximity for family members. I have also thought that KU should go ahead and move to a lesser league. Instead of being a bottom feeder, with one good team about every ten years, in the Big 12, they could be top dog in a lesser conference. They are never going to be an annual challenger for a BCS bowl in the Big 12. It wouldn't make any difference for the BB program, because they would always have an opportunity for a NC, as they do now, and every other team, by getting invited to the big dance.

gorillas76 10 years, 9 months ago

I agree with your suggestion of Morris as a possible replacement. He could be a good fit with his strong ties to Texas high schools. I have, also, realized how much Texas could open up for KSU and KU with Nebraska and Missouri going to other leagues. A&M will still be a strong recruiter in the state, as well they should be, and maybe even stronger, but, it opens it up for some schools with a closer proximity for family members. I have also thought that KU should go ahead and move to a lesser league. Instead of being a bottom feeder, with one good team about every ten years, in the Big 12, they could be top dog in a lesser conference. They are never going to be an annual challenger for a BCS bowl in the Big 12. It wouldn't make any difference for the BB program, because they would always have an opportunity for a NC, as they do now, and every other team, by getting invited to the big dance.

gorillas76 10 years, 9 months ago

I agree with your suggestion of Morris as a possible replacement. He could be a good fit with his strong ties to Texas high schools. I have, also, realized how much Texas could open up for KSU and KU with Nebraska and Missouri going to other leagues. A&M will still be a strong recruiter in the state, as well they should be, and maybe even stronger, but, it opens it up for some schools with a closer proximity for family members. I have also thought that KU should go ahead and move to a lesser league. Instead of being a bottom feeder, with one good team about every ten years, in the Big 12, they could be top dog in a lesser conference. They are never going to be an annual challenger for a BCS bowl in the Big 12. It wouldn't make any difference for the BB program, because they would always have an opportunity for a NC, as they do now, and every other team, by getting invited to the big dance.

jaybate 10 years, 9 months ago

How much access do you get for kicking a coach, when he is down, for rebuilding a program, as he was hired to do?

What kind of "unholy" alliance between Sheahon Zenger and Tom Keegan could drive this sort of coverage?

How much access can you get for trashing a man who is doing the same kind of a job, at the same pace, that Bill Snyder did once upon a time in Manhattan?

What quid pro quo justifies torching a man's career, while saying he gets to walk away with $6M and exit, perhaps into another profession?

What message is being communicated to Turner Gill via the media; that he should take the money and run?

What is the unspoken risk, if he stays to fight for his job like a man?

How can two good Catholic men act this way to one good born again Christian man?

How can two good Caucasian American men act this way to one good African American man?

How can a journalist and an athletic director treat a KU coach this way?

What has Bernadette Gray-Little become; that she, am African American woman, would let this go on, or, god forbid, encourage it?

Why is it so important to run a hire of Lew Perkins?

What has money done to KU people in sports?

For the love of Catholic and born-again gods, for the progressive tradition of Kansas and KU, for the fellowship of the races and religions, and for the good of the players, stop this now before something occurs that cannot be undone!

Being beaten by one point and blowing a lead is not a hanging offense, even in the age of the Patriot Acts.

Ad astra per aspera.

We have nothing to fear in KU football, but fear itself.

Rock Chalk!

gardenjay 10 years, 9 months ago

Breath of fresh air. Thanks Jaybate. Hanging with #25 in the country? That's pretty good for this point in a building programme, especially to hear the players are not satisfied.

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