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Saturday, April 23, 2011
By J-W Staff Reports
Tony Kimbro, a 6-foot-5 senior basketball guard from Louisville, Ky., told Rivals.com at Friday’s Derby Classic he plans to visit Kansas, Tennessee and Manhattan before the May 18 end of the spring signing period. He’s also visited Western Kentucky.
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When he gets in a fight with the football team/his girlfriend/a bouncer we will call him Kimbro Slice
OMG - That is hilarious ahperscoehisivelaughtertodayexperienced!
IMHO Keith Langford 2.0. absolute best case. A lefty wing player with very long arms and a very nice stroke from deep. Also seems to be able to get to the bucket when he wants, but maybe settles too much for the 3-ball at times? If he can make his free-throws and eventually learn how to play Bill Self style D. he might be able to play meaningful mins. as a Frosh.
Previous post about the movie blue chips is great!! Favorite parts in the movie is when my favorite player of all time Rex Walters is tearing up nets like he used to at the fieldhouse!!! Recruiting wise, I think Mclemore and hopefully Lacey will be huge. They look like athletic 3 year atleast players which is what we need. For size TRob will be a beast next year and if we get Daniels from what I seen looks crafty, but needs some weightroom time!!!
+1 for the Rex Walters mention.
Sorry was on a different artlicle lol!!!
Still get the +1
Just off first glance, the kid does not look to be a big 6 conference athlete at the wing position. Will not get wide open looks at that level and will need to finish with more authority. IF he did come here, i would definitely guess a redshirt season to be in his near future..
Why would you redshirt a player that you need now? Why bother even to recruit him? We not in a position to redshirt anyone. If he comes, he will not get the shirt. IMO
Do we really need another guard...especially if Lacey signs?
He does look strong and athletic, could be a mismatch problem with teams. I would say very raw at the least though.
I agree... raw, but with a big upward potential
So how many recruits do we have? Can someone list them for me? How many spots do we have to fill?
We started with 3.
Then lost 3 more with the Twins and Selby, 6 total.
Tharpe, BMac and Anderson -3.
We have 3 left and possibly +1 with Teahan if necessary.
We have 3-4 left.
Option 2 or DDless:
Optio 3 or DD/Laceyless
Worse case or slim option: We miss all the above and take the +1, TRob and TT's into 2012 class with 3. If EJ and Rel have a great season, they too could potentially go into next yr's draft. I really think EJ and Rel could have a better yr. We could lose Withey too. I know some will disagree and that's fine but if he has a MkM type yr, it's possible to lose 5 next yr. We could have 6 for 2012.
I won't even ask how long it took you to break that down or even how you did it lol, Thank you!
Self turns up this year's hole card no one foresaw. Not an ace for sure, but a potential face card by his third season.
The board rats that love 3-4 year players ought to like Tony Kimbro.
Assuming the feeds are at all indicative, Kimbro is a good, left-handed, 3-star prospect for glue 3 and could mature into an impact 3 with the right weight training, conditioning and maturation. He is already smooth, bouncey, shows quick hands, a willingness to get down and slide on defense, and possesses the two things that make a glue wing player dangerous on offense in Self Ball: a good outside shooting touch inside and out and a loooooooong first step to base line!
Why isn't he ranked higher?
He isn't strong yet.
He barely jumps on his J.
He is not yet able to slide quickly.
He is very one-handed on the dribble.
He shows no fire in the belly.
With a player like Kimbro, the questions are:
1) does he want it badly enough to get better at the next level, because he is the classic case of a player who will have to really spead up a lot to play at D1 speeds?
2) why hasn't he developed an obviously strong set of physical abilities already, like real jump shot, and some right hand, because he won't get set shots in D1?
3) And is he ahead or behind his age group on the physical maturation curve?
My guess is that two things stand between this guy being a bench warmer gone in two years and a potentially very solid 20-30 minute glue man his junior/senior seasons.
Work ethic and intensity.
If he discovers he likes hard work and if Self can find the key to unlocking his intensity, this guy is a diamond in the rough capable of becoming a fine player.
If not, he will be overwhelmed by competition, never develop the minimum skills and be marginalized in two years.
I think he's a good prospect with a big upside.
I suspect he is young, never had to play hard, and with Hudy strengthening him, will learn to slide quickly on D and elevate on his J. With those two abilities developed, and with 15 additional pounds on a physically matured body, the guy could be a player. He has the touch and the first step now.
We used to get the 3-4 yr players with players rated above #50..Marcus, Kief. Kuan, Giles (not a great reference) and Darnell Jackson for reference..not 3 star unranked players
Sounds like a backup plan for Lacey. Or that because Brandon Knight is going pro, we no longer have a shot at Lacey.
A backup plan is probably the case, but I doubt Lacey had decided anything yet or it would have been announced. Everything I've read says Lacey isn't a true point and Doron Lamb didn't leave Kentucky.
Here is his father's bio if any of you might remember him, his son appears to be quicker version.
16) Tony Kimbro (1985-1990)
The pride of Seneca High School in the 1980's, Kimbro was Kentucky's Mr. Basketball in 1985 and was widely considered one of the best five players in the country. It's safe to say that his Louisville career did not live up to the insane hype.
Though he did miss an entire season due to ineligibility, and only averaged double figures in his sophomore season, Kimbro did log just under 18 minutes a game on the '86 national championship team, and ranks fifth at U of L in career games played.
Unusual combination of schools to visit. Tennessee is a real questionable program at this juncture. Maybe he wants to visit KSU rather than Manhattan and was confused somehow. Not having any other of basketball's marquis programs on the list may suggest a variety of issues. From the positive side, it could point to his opinon of KU being his dream school. From a negative side, it could suggest his confidence level in instant playing time except at a lower rated program. Then again, he may lack a high level of self confidence in his game at the college level. Surely, he has the support that will help guide him through the process. At least he has the sense not to lust after Caltucky.
Cuonzo Martin, now at UTenn, seems to know his stuff.
Self definitely knows his stuff.
If these two guys want him, Kimbro can probably become a solid player.
Another YouTube moment!
The kid is athletic..
I'd rather not blow the scholarship on this kid when we have releford, Mclemore and potentially Daniels all with the ability to play the 3. Especially considering the strength of the 2012 class. However, I've gotta believe that Texas became the favorite for Daniels after losing Hamilton for good yesterday.
We're not getting Daniels. He's going to Duke.
I expect you to be on here eating crow if he goes ANYWHERE else besides Duke.
Do we really have a Duke Blue Devil troll onboard?
Coach K, is that you?
While I appreciate the optimism .. here's what we know:
1. This guy was not even a secondary target for Self prior to the end of the season. No recruiting services even had KU listed as interested, high, low, otherwise; and he was never in any group that KU was targeting.
2. Watch the clips. The guy has a slow first step, doesn't have a jump shot .. more like a set shot .. and is way too deliberate with the ball. Actually, look at what Jaybate observed about the guy.
3. He isn't in the rivals top 150. Probably doesn't deserve top 200.
4. He received offers from Marquette, Western Kentucky, Manhattan, and Nebraska.
5. Kentucky has no interest (I say that because if he was decent, at this stage, they might, right?). Currently, neither does any other reasonable landing spot.
6. He is considering Manhattan .. Tennessee .. and now KU. Really.
7. The best that can reasonably be said is that he may develop down the road into a player possibly as a junior. Lots of "mays" and "possiblys." The likely is that he comes for a couple years, redshirts a year, and leaves. Not for sure, just looking a history. Tell me one guy outsite the rivals 150 that amounted to squat here. Pass on this guy. Please. Go to Manhattan. A Manhattan project ... better than bombing here.
Can we call a spade a spade? Self told Trevor Lacey .. quite honestly .. a few months back that he expected Selby, and the twins, back for 2011-12. A possibility here is that Self is scrambling based on his incorrect assumptions.
Look at our belated recruitment of Traylor; now some interest in this guy (Kimbro)? And although Anderson had some interest late from others (for the same reason we had interest, see below .. he was clearly not a top choice. Self admitted that in his ringing endorsement of Anderson, saying "Braeden is a guy we identified late,” Self said. “When we felt like the (Morris) twins would probably be leaving, we looked for the best available big guy there was in the country. Although we are still recruiting a couple more, Braeden Anderson was on everybody’s list. He is a guy with a great skill set, great bounce and great body and is just a short time away from a chance to be a really good player for us.”
We are scrambling. This is not a good position to be in .. "best available big guy ..." Emphasis on "available"? And we're scambling for Traylor because we're dangerously thin in the post.
"A Manhattan project ... better than bombing here."
See, now THAT is a clever pun. Well played.
Scrambling is the right thing to do, when you have to scramble.
And of course Self has to scramble.
He may have to scramble even more, if Thomas Robinson gets bounced from the team as a result of his scrape with the law.
Self made no error that I can see related to the Twins.
Up until mid February, Kieff seemed hardly able to put consecutive solid performances together, much less look like an NBA first round draft choice.
And the NBA lockout looked like a lot bigger damper on players' incentive to jump than has in fact proved to be the case.
Self just thought he had Kieff for another year, and Marcus apparently had indicated to him that he would probably stick around another year, if Kieff did.
But Kieff got on a roll in February and suddenly, batta bing, batta boom, Kieff discovers he's a first rounder and Marcus is too and so they both are gone.
Such is life.
There is no way foresee this kind of thing more accurately than Self foresaw it..
This circumstance is actually kind of freakish. It stems from having twins who are anchors of your team and who surprisingly become first rounders the same season, when all along they have seemed about a year apart in phase of development.
I really don't see any reason to talk about Self blowing anything, or suggesting there is anything "bad" about Self scrambling to get the best available players he can at this late date.
What else is he supposed to do.
Cancel next season and wait for the following year when he has had a more normal recruiting cycle?
No one thought Brady was worth a ride and he became a very good player.
Few thought Tyrel was worth a ride and he became a very good player.
I said two years ago that bigs in the paint were going to become a problem if he didn't land a credible guy last season.
From that moment, there was probably going to be a gap this season and next.
And there was.
Self only had three viable bigs this season.
He'd have had a problem next season, even if only Marcus had jumped.
Now he has a much bigger one with Kieff going too.
But there really was nothing to do about it.
He's charismatic as a recruiter and depends on straight talk as part of his brand.
He has the best big man in the country.
He couldn't promise anyone any minutes.
The other big time recruits were so sure Marcus and Kieff were going to be back that they went elsewhere.
Why were they so sure?
It wasn't just Self's word.
They were looking at what we were looking at this season, too.
In December, no one realistically thought Kieff was going to be a first round draft choice. It was not even clear that he was going to be able to handle the job of starting big. TRob was out playing him much of the season.
But then he got hot and got the hang of the D1 game and played exceptionally well and deserved to go.
But it happened late.
And that's all there is to it IMHO.
Erratum: Self has the best big man coach in the country, not the best big man. :-)
Hmm, maybe if TRob gets back he will be the best big man in the country next season.
jaybate, my exact feelings when I read the posts about HCBS bad recruiting. HCBS could've lied and made all the promises of PT like some other coaches do, but these kids aren't blind and stupid. They saw what things looked like at KU and looked for better opportunities for PT. Personally I'd rather have a coach with good character than a sleazeball like Calipari who tells his kids to leave because they're in the way of his incoming class.
That's bs. Coach Self never assumes a player is staying, for one thing, and even when he thinks that is the case, he has said many times, "There's always a scholarship available." The philosophy is, if they will come, you will figure out a way they can. He's never sat back and hoped a player would stay. That's absurd stuff.
Reminder, guys, Darnell Jackson was a four star, #58 rated guy. We seem to get all sentimental on D-block, forgetting his ranking. And we get sentimental about Russell Robinson, who was a five star guy. Reed was 109. Those are our three "blue collar" guys, right? Morningstar .. ok, he wasn't ranked. But that ain't the best convincer, so to speak, in any argument, all due respect to Brady. Find me anyone else at KU that made a major contribution within the past 5 seasons that was as low as the guys we are "targeting" or in Anderson's case, signed?
I know there is this inclination among many here to simply cheer on whatever name is mentioned as if simply because Self is talking to him, the guy must be great. But let's have a reality check.
Another point here .. we don't have to recruit these low tier guys to avoid the one and dones. We are recruiting these guys because they are what's left .. as coach Self admitted with regard to Anderson.
Sure, folks can try to point to those isolated examples around the country of unexpected guys that make it big. But reality check .. those are the major exceptions to the rule. You don't win championships with Anderson, Traylor, Kimbro type guys. And I get it .. unranked guys could develop. But that's not a problem or issue we should have to deal with.
You win championships with guys like Collins, Chalmers, Rush, or guys like Lacey, Daniels, McLemore.
And as for glue, I'll take four star glue, or at least top 100 three star glue, thank you very much. We don't need unranked glue.
As we stand right now .. viewing this objectively .. this recruiting class is easily below average. Daniels or Lacey changes that equation, but not when it comes to the 4 and 5 spots. This class is and will be greatly deficient in the post. To use Self "grand slam" baseball analogy .. it's a reached base on error (Anderson). Sure, the official scorer may change it to a hit upon reflection, but only time will tell. We do know we missed on the double, the triples, and the home runs at those spots.
Wow. Your post comes across kinda arrogant. As if KU is "too good" and some how these guys are "beneath" our recruiting them. I want the Top 100 guys just like anybody else, but there really is no need to essentially trash these other kids just because ESPN or Rivals or Joe Dirt doesn't rank them in their Top 100.
This is Elitist's consistent tone... Trash talk the decisions made by Self, and If it ain't McDonald's All-American it's deficient.
He's clever sure, but not particularly good at separating himself from the emotional aspect of being a fan. He's also very good at projecting that onto others.
The key point to mention here, is that Ben McLemore, one of the three he mentions previously as "Players you win championships with" and yet somehow decides to remove him from the class when discussing Bill Self's "Grand Slam."
Yes, we are Kansas. We Should be top 5 in recruiting this year, but we brought in our "Best recruit ever" last year and he played like Squat, we had two players who said FOE all year until March came around and decided to turn pro. No I don't blame Selby or the Morri's for going pro, but it certainly IS a valid excuse for Self not picking up Legit talent in their spots expecting them to come back.
Sometimes you have to reach down and develop someone you had little hopes for being good to sure your true abilities. I know Izzo has mined gold when necessary a few times, I know K brought someone from unheralded to respected, but to this point we have seen only great successes from Bill Self in the world of recruiting.... He has never had to look past the 2-3 star label and see what's really inside the Kid. Not at Kansas, certainly.
But, he was successful at Oral Roberts. And at Tulsa. Chances are he wasn't bringing in Kids with Kimbro's Skill set there.
As usual, you have no facts, you have no argument. You ignore the history here at Kansas regarding the successful players on our roster. I've challenged you in the past to demostrate statements you attribute to me but you won't. I don't "trash talk." That may be for you. I give a critical opinion. I assumed that's what this board is for .. or to be a Bill Self ass-kisser like you. This board is for that, too. And I have never demanded McDonald's all-Americans. Ever. In fact, I think we should steer clear of the obvious one and dones. But facts aren't what you're about. We all know that.
McLemore is a championship level recruit, but sorry, that does not make a "grand slam." Even paired with Tharpe and Anderson. Add Lacey and Daniels, I will have a different opinion. Heck, add one more and the class gets exponentially better. But all agree we are missing the signature big man. Anderson may contribute, may surprise, but he may not.
And I don't blame Self totally for that .. top big guys saw the twins and TRob in front of them. Couldn't have been easy selling playing time.
Really, try to step back, take a deep breath, and come to the table with some unique thought. But perhaps you are giving all you've got. We all have limitations.
and here we go... I don't come here to trash talk... But you call me a Bill Self ass kisser...
Tell me you see the irony of that.
Just think it's mighty conveinant you leave a lot of things out when you are making your arrogant gloom and Doom assertions.
You were wrong about Tyshawn, You were wrong about Selby, and you are wrong about this too. You and I were BOTH wrong on Brady ( though it seems you and I were both also RIGHT about Brady... in how it has thus far effected Elijah ). the Problem is..... I Know when I'm wrong, and will admit it.
Critical opinion, Elitist. You talk arrogantly about something you know very little about, and there is no mea culpa when you screw up. You just make excuses and say I challenge you to find what I have lied about. All anyone has to do is read your posts.
Not sure how I was wrong on TT or Selby .. anyway, happy Easter.
Thought about the being wrong on TT .. after the first 9 games this season, go back and look, I noted a change in my opinion on TT based on his approach the game.
But then, after that, he reverted to the old TT .. the out of control, selfish TT.
My opinion on TT is that he will now be a senior, and possibly the number of good games will outweigh the bad for once. But don't expect it. He is what he is. I've always said he has NBA potential if he actually would first focus on delivering the ball and on assists vs. shooting. But I've also said that when you look at the big picture, we are hurting at the point guard position and if we had more consistent play from that spot, we would be better. That was certainly true in 2010-11. You focus on flashes of brilliance, not on the big picture. That's what you miss.
"we brought in our "Best recruit ever" last year and he played like Squat"
Jay..do you think HCBS had any culpability in Selby's play?
Irving basically missed the entire season yet is #1 in many mock drafts.
It's possible the non-playing helped Irving..but he was also given a longer leash in the 11 games he did play.
I wish I could have been a fly on the wall listening to some of their conversations.
Being on such a short leash could not have had a positive impact on Selby's game...it has not helped EJ either.
I'm hoping it was a learning experience for all.
Answer the shorter question first.
No doubt Bill's coaching has effected Elijah's game significantly. In that regard the short hook was both a double edged sword, Yeah it's changed his game, but it certainly does have him looking to Impact next season.
Selby vs. Irving.
There's A LOT to cover on this topic. For one, despite the rankings, everyone was much more sure that Irving was going to be the brightest star of the class. He was going to a place where no one could do what he would do. He was going to start at his natural position. He had a coach that was willing to demonstrably embarrass himself game in and out whining for inches and being given yards.
Perfect situation for him to be given the reigns. No Challenger to the throne, no real star to bump heads with, and a coach who would connive any chance to get you to succeed.
Selby on the other hand, had Tyshawn and Elijah as people to compete against, and Tyshawn was given the start from the get go. Rightfully so might I add, because he's accomplished more than Selby. Factor in Brady and Tyrel's pre-ordained minutes and then all the sudden you got last years talented great player battling this years talented player with one less year in Bill's system for essentially 20 minutes a game. Another difference Selby encounters is he was at best third scoring option behind the two man-hydra named the Morri. Another difference is Bill expects you to earn your spot, and will not often chastize the refs just to make a point.
I don't remember who's argument it originally was, but another poster suggested that Selby's only mistake was Choosing Kansas. I totally agree with this comment.
One had the reigns gifted to him because there was no one else. One had to earn the reigns because he was not better than the team as a whole.
I think It will make Selby potentially a better pro, but it certainly made Kyrie a better College player.
Does self bear some of the blame, certainly but i don't think Bill's going to change the way he approaches recruiting/coaching, and I don't think it's going to make Kansas any less or any more attractive to potential recruits. It might, and just might, make Selby a better pro for knowing that the players he will play against will challenge him world's beyond what he was challenged in College.
If it instills in Selby a work ethic that we never got a glimpse of in fairness to Josh, then he could not only go down as one of the greatest talents our university ever had, but as the glaring exception to Self's one and Done approach. That's a big If though.
To me it really just sounded true. It may be an unfortunate reality for alot of kids that they just aren't being looked at by the bigger programs. Be it's still reality. You cannot expect to compete with the big boys if you cannot recruit with the big boys. Simple equation to me. Yes I have seen the movie Hoosiers, and that kind of thing is most definetly the exception, not the rule. Now, while I don't believe we need 4 or even 1 of these one and done guys per year. I do think it's the right combo of top 50 talent mixed in with some top 150 glue guys, who will stay more than 1 year and preferrably 3 or 4, sprinkled with some Hudy, Manning, Self coaching/work ethic/intensity that will ultimately be successful here. History has shown that this true. ROCK CHALK
The "Hoosiers" team wasn't a winner until they picked up Jimmy Chitwood.
A literal Jimmy in the "Jimmy's and the Joe's," as they say......
So what you're really trying to say is this. "If we don't get Jimmy Chitwood back playin ball we don't have a prayer" :)
Can't recruit with the big boys but certainly can play with them. NC game two years in a row. Kind of kills your theory.
ku1otaku: It is a bit arrogant. But we are too good to take some players, aren't we? And it's not trashing anyone .. just not an elite program recruit. Lots of schools those guys would fit fine .. Colorado, Western Kentucky, Mississippi, right?
Here's the thing you forget, Elitist, and It's terrible that you should forget this in a short span of less than a month, and it certainly IS trashing someone.
When the going gets tough kids that have nothing to lose are going to fight harder.
Or did you not watch the VCU Game. Those kids played without abandon, because they knew there was no tomorrow. They knew there were no trophies for second place, and of all teams, WE SHOULD HAVE TAUGHT THEM THAT.
Thats what Darnell, Russel, Sasha and Rodrick brought to our Championship year. They were players who legitimately had no where else to go but to win a ring. Certainly Darnell got drafted, and has been in and out of the NBA, and Sasha plays in Russia, but as far as basketball goes. They are all for the most part done.
You mentioned there is a ceiling for all players, every player can only amount to the hard work and their talent Apex, and that be they 2-5 star recruits there is naturally some expectations to how they will perform.
There are, however, players that on occasion change their own ceilings..... end up at lesser colleges and then become something no one saw. Gordon Haywood grew late, and went from becoming moderately talented shooting guard, to an exceptionally gifted Small Forward
Tony Kimbro might be one of these players, if he grew 3-4 inches, who knows.... but there is some reason Martin and Self want him, and that lesson might be too obscure for you Elitists mind to grasp. The lesson of seeing only the stat sheets, and not the human behind them.
I believe it's already been said, but you are talking about the exception and not the rule. You can come to a reasonable conclusion about a player based on stats, history, etc. This does not equal trashing someone. It doesn't even imply that this player isn't capable of surpassing his reasonably predetermined ceiling. It simply implys that if you follow logic, you bet on the rule, not the exception. The exception is by definition rare.
It would be alot like projecting that Tyrel Reed(whom I respect and admire greatly as a human being and a Jayhawk) in his freshman season at KU was going to be an NBA player someday. All because of his work ethic and tenacity raising his ceiling. Which probably did actually happen in Reed's case. But there are unfortunately still limits to ones ceiling. It's a bitter truth that for some, no matter how much hard work and dedication they put into what they do, they still won't have the ceiling of someone who is more talented. This is why Josh Selby is going to the NBA and Reed is not.
Plus Im sorry, but I haven't read anywhere so far that Coach Self, or Coach Martin are actually targeting this kid. Right now it sounds more like he is targeting KU, or UT.
I own a construction company. I would love to build a multi-hundred million dollar skyscraper and line my pockets with dead presidents in the process, but this doesn't mean anyone is targeting me for the project.
Indeed, we should look objectively at everyone we bring and not just drink Kool-aid....
My question to you, then, Cragarhawk, Would you trust the eyes of a 20 year head coach who has a championship ring, or do you trust the eyes of a Board rat,specifcally one with a track record of seeing things in a negative light ?
As for nothing being said about having interest in him, he's coming to visit. Now, I don't want to be naive here, but it sure stands to reason this kid is coming to Kansas for a reason. You can read into it, he's coming to gauge interest in his abilities but I doubt Bill needs him to come to Lawrence for that. And I doubt Bill would say to a Kid... Yeah your not good enough to play with us. maybe he's good enough, Maybe he's not. I would say him taking a visit to our Campus means he's at least on our Radar.
I can take seeing the glass as half empty, but I cannot take...We're too good for him, when clearly Self sees something worthwhile there.
I trust the opinion of people who seem to be able rationalize and be realistic as well as my own eyes.
Coach Self has done some awesome things in his time as a coach, and here at KU as well. To deny that would be foolhearted. Now, to assume that because Self says so or does so, means its absolutely unquestionable and indiscussable is also foolhearted. If you can't see that not everything CS has done has turned to gold then I don't know how else to try to make you see that he is in fact just a man, and capable of mistakes as much as any other man.
If I do something wrong at my job, nobody pats me on the back and says, oh no you did a great job. Nobody says, oh no you're not capable of making a mistake, you're completely infallible. It's accountability. While CS is certainly not accountable to me, he certainly is to somebody. Just as I am, just as everyone should be.
I will be the first to say Great Job to anyone, when a job is well done. And I'll be the first to say, you messed up when someone messes up. Im just not going to treat CS or any member of team any differently than I would any other person. Or any different than I would expect myself to be treated in a similar situation.
Then you are assuming your eyes are trained to the level of a division 1 coach. Who's being foolhearted here ? Answer, Anyone who believes they know as much as the man Paid 3 Million a year to do this job.
No one's rubber stamping Bill Here, but no one is throing him out with the Bathwater because the Baby might stink today. Your trying to be rational here, but your rationalism is flawed. It's not Self Praise.... Frankly, From what I have seen and heard, Not a one of us has been hired to coach a D III school, let alone to Handle a Major college university.
Don't you think to give criticisms to in game coaching... you should at least have Objective stand point to know that's why they pay him and not me. That generally his long term view of the program as a whole is greater than knowledge of say a Bank teller or High School Principal.
We get to focused on what we would change, and we really don't know about 10 percent of what goes on...... maybe 20 percent for some alumni.... You know because they have connections, but you'd almost have to be an ex player to get that real dose.
Personally, I don't think I could run this ship any better than Bill.... So, Why not let him do his job and let the questions start when he doesn't win the conference every year, continually get us beyond the first weekend of the NCAA tourney, and generally have us in championship contention by the last weekend of the regular season.
I never said that I know more than CS. I would never suggest that. If you'll read my post over you will see that I praised CS for his accomplishments as a HC. I don't at all wish for him to not be here. Right now, there is no other coach I would rather have here. I am however, capable of taking what I see and developing that into a reasonable opinion. And it is my reasonable opinion that it is a mistake to go after Kimbro. And Im not even convinced yet that anybody here is going after Kimbro. Now, I may be wrong on my reasonable opinion, and if that happens I will be all too happy to say Great Job to CS for recruiting this kid.
The numbers are probably in the 90's as far as the percentage of chance this kid has of not making it at KU. Watch him play, look at the numbers, this is a reasonable conclusion. By not making it, I mean he will likely transfer within 2 years, and may even have one redshirt year in that 2 as well.
And if that happens will you be able to come on this board and say that CS made a mistake getting this kid? Will you have that capability?
The +1 was for Cragerhawk .. See, waywardjay just trusts Bill Self without question. It is a blind faith. I said "ass kisser" before. More like "brown noser." A deeper connection for waywardjay, perhaps. Simply because Self says so, it's good.
Never mind the evidence. Never mind the history. Never mind that we are scrambling. Never mind that Kimbro would not even be a consideration but for this late hour.
That being said, I do trust coach Self. But I also understand .. unlike the wayward boy, that this is kind of like being three days before prom with no date. The pickings ain't great, but you've gotta have a date.
Your Funny, Elitist.
You suggesting never mind the history, never mind the evidence.
Look Back over the history of Comments and you will see... I wanted Tom Crean or Mark Few in 2003. I lived in Illinois, I watched Illinois basketball, and I saw Bill Self as a great recruiter who played too damn much Zone. I hated Watching Illinois version of Bill because of what it means to me. To me, Zone is weak defense. You cannot adequately defend your opponent Man to man with traps, you certainly do not have the potential to be coach at Kansas.
I saw more upside with Crean and Few. Younger guys who had been coaching at the mid-majors who were beating Roy.consistently, who showed they could recruit as well as a lot of the Big time Schools. The suggestion that I had Blind faith with Bill, is laughable because I was one of Bill's worst critics in the begining.
It took me four strong years of improved defense and Surviving SIU ( believe me Bradley and Bucknell were making me scream foul but I resisted my urge to give in to those who think someone could do better, based off their untrained eyes... ) When we lost to UCLA, I knew that what we lost was a game on the Road to a team that should have been ranked higher than Us. I thought back to when I last felt that.......
I couldn't give an answer.
Then, we won the title.
Then we lost to a Michigan State team that beat us twice in the same year, both times by out muscling us.
This year, While VCU was someone we should beat, I didn't feel it was a let down. I felt bad sherron went out like that, but i didn't feel like there was no future.
Last year when Northern Iowa beat us, I knew we were better than them, But I didn't feel the let down. I felt bad for the twins, and TRob, but i didn't think there was no future.
See, Part of it is knowing that we are witnessing an amazing coaching job unfold before our very eyes. I step back and look at the broader strokes and realize Bill's won the last two years 30 games each season with Tyrel Reed and Brady Morningstar being major portions of his Offense. Do you realize how much of an accomplishment that is?
So, When you say "Blind Faith" your really talking to a guy who has seen Bill Coach for a decade now, more games than most of you have.... From very Objective eyes, Eyes that have ranged from never wanting him hired, to One's that see why he's the right guy for the job.
If that's Blind Faith, then I guess I'm an Kool-aid drinker. But I suggest you need to rethink my allegiances, or you need to rethink your wording Elitist.
I've caught you far too many times in an over reach to let me be the Idiot here.
Thanks .. I don't know .. watching him, he really looks like an unranked guy. If he he's a redshirt, why not hold the scholarship? But that's why I think we're scrambling here .. lost Selby, lost Woolridge who projected as depth guy. Now among the 1-3 guys we have TT, EJ, Ben, Releford, and Tharpe. Not much depth. Good points .. I think if Self's on a non-ranked guy, he probably does have the right attitude as you suggest.
Lacey and Daniels change everything.
What Self sees is a looooooooong first step to the baseline, that you can't teach, plus a natural shooting touch, that you can't teach, which might translate to a good jump shot, if he gets his strength up, which Hudy can get up. He also sees a relatively immature body that will be able to do a lot more things when it matures.
That's what he sees. This ain't even a little rocket science here, boys.
Some very honest and real points here. I tend to agree. Not sure why we thought the twins were coming back? Can't believe that spending the entire season with them that HCBS had no idea they were leaning towards the NBA? Now we are sadly in this position. I for one would rather hold the scholarships for next season if we can't land DD or TL. Why give away one to a player who will never play. We're KU for God sake not some mid-major we shouldn't beg a 2 star player to come. Heck the football team only signed a couple 2 stars. Self needs to really hit the recruiting trail hard for 2012. We need to land Perry Ellis and at least 1 other big time talent next year to go With ZP. Picking up names won't get us to a final four. Hell walk-ons are probably similar to these guys. We need legit players or nothing.
+1 .. I'd rather hold the scholarships, too. One risk is injury and being stuck, though. TRob tears an ACL and Anderson twist and ankle .. it is an unfortunate spot to be in.
You don't know why we thought the Twins were coming back? Did you look at any mock draft boards prior to the season? Or how about 'Kieff's 6.8 ppg and 5.3 rpg averages last year?
Sure as the season went on the possibility of Markieff leaving became more and more likely, but I've been trying to get people to understand the situation ever since the Twins declared and fans started screaming about the sky falling with us being so thin in the post next year. The early signing period started November 11 and ended November 17. KU played it's first game November 12. How could anyone have known at that time that Markieff was going to leave? Coming into the season I would estimate the chances of Marcus leaving to be about 50/50, maybe a little higher based simply on his own merits. The chances of Markieff leaving...maybe 10%. And the prevailing thinking was that if Markieff hadn't progressed enough to declare early that Marcus, whether he was a first round pick lock or not, would stick around to play one more year with his brother. When Self talked to Lacey and told him he expected the Twins to return it was months ago, not after "spending the entire season with them".
I agree with a vast majority of your post. I read the headline, then went to check his ranking on the recruiting services, and subsequently went "huh?" Do we need another body for the scout team? Does this signal anything regarding the recruitment of Lacey or Daniels? I honestly don't know, but the way it stands now this isn't filling a need. We have enough perimeter players. Even if we miss on Lacey and Daniels, we have enough. This is nothing more than taking on a project, and to me you only do that with great athletes who have yet to become decent basketball players. You don't take mediocre athletes to try and make them glue guys. So while you say we're scrambling, I honestly don't know why we'd be scrambling to get this guy. And this isn't meant as a slight to this kid. He may be a great kid, who turns out to be a solid basketball player somewhere. But simply putting a KU jersey on any kid doesn't mean that they are elite D-1 talented. Basketball players are not created equal.
Where I disagree somewhat with you is your general attitude towards Self's recruiting efforts. I know repeatedly you have referred to Self as having "whiffed" on many post players, but who were we really in on for those spots? Angelo Chol. OK, although his commitment to AZ came before we knew the Twins were leaving. I don't remember anyone else (some may say Otto Porter, but I've heard conflicting reports as to whether he is actually a post player or a wing). I've been saying this entire time that no one was expecting to lose both the Twins coming into the season. I would challenge anyone to point to a post where it was even suggested that both were leaving prior to the early signing period. It wasn't on anyone's radar. And the early signing period is where nearly all of the talent for the post spots came off the board. By the time it was even conceivable that Markieff might declare it was too late. What 4-star recruit was going to want to come here and sit a year? I know we have the best "big" coach in the country in Danny, but that's not enough. Kids want to go where they can play. It's pretty rare to have guys like Cole Aldrich or Zach Peters that want to come here no matter what the PT situation may look like.
You are correct. My reference to whiffing on the post players is qualified. Self had a difficult task with the top guys who demand playing time. The twins and TRob in front of them literally guaranteed little time. He did whiff on getting a top post player in this class, but saying he is completely to blame for that, or even a majority to blame, is not what I think. We just didn't get a top guy. Nice post.
"This is nothing more than taking on a project, and to me you only do that with great athletes who have yet to become decent basketball players."
Totally agree. What popped into my head with this line was Sasha Kaun. He had the size and the build and was obviously athletic, but was very raw having only played basketball for 2 years before coming to KU. You are definitely correct in that you build on a "project" only if that project is capable of giving results. I don't mean to dog on this kid, but from that video posted above, his first step looks like his foot is caught in a bear trap. Or that dream where you're being chased but can only seem to move in slow motion...... It's exceedingly slow, and you can't build on that. You have the quickness or you don't.
To your point about unranked talent and "that's not a problem or issue we should have to deal with", I would say that is generally true, but it's been a combination of unlikely circumstances that has led to this predicament - Markieff making giant strides to play himself into a position where he could leave early, a weak draft class all but guaranteeing him of being a 1st round pick, the rise of the mid-majors the last few years to the point where the BCS schools no longer have a monopoly on 4-star recruits, and as I've previously pointed out nearly all of the 4-star talent being off the board before the late signing period began. And we are all quick to forget, but this could have very well been the situation following the '08 season had the Twins not de-committed and fell into our laps. We would have had Cole, Quintrell Thomas, and been scrambling to find someone else to fill the spots in the post. With teams generally only having 3 post players seeing significant minutes, the situation where 2 leave in one year is not all that uncommon. And we see this a lot elsewhere, even with elite schools. Look at Kentucky this past year. They had little-used Josh Harrelson coming back, transfer Eloy Vargas who had been underwhelming as a Freshman at Florida (and who played very few minutes this past season) and had Terrance Jones fall into their lap. So being thin in the post is not a situation unique to Kansas, as even the Calipari recruiting machine couldn't prevent such a situation from transpiring.
And lastly I would disagree with your characterization of Traylor's recruitment as "belated" and "scrambling". Self had offered him a scholarship long ago. It had nothing to do with needing help in the post. While that may be a motive now, we were on him long ago for what seemed to be incentive for Deandre Daniels. Christian Garrett is also an example of this.
I'm not thrilled about this recruiting class, but it's solid. We have one immediate impact player, and a couple of decent bench players. We have enough talented players to satisfy Self's rotation requirements. Something that I'm curious about, because we could use another big, is why aren't we recruiting Joseph Uchebo? If there's a player worth scrambling for...it's him. Could be a classic Bill Self late sign following a de-commit.
Dead right on noting Uchebo .. but must be a reason. He is ranked in the 90s, and perhaps Self preferred Anderson and Traylor as targets. Probably stuff we don't know.
One last thought...you know it's a good post when you draw so many responses, especially from many of the boards' regular contributors. So overall...+1
Great point, and definitely agree.
Very interesting conversation, a thread within a thread if you will.
Here is my plan. Let's go get Daniels, Lacey, and Uchebo. Then it's a grandslam and the core of the ball is now orbiting the moon, and skin is lost in space. But seriously, Uchebo would probably be enough to call it atleast a homerun.
I saw at one time not long ago on Rivals I think, that we had not even offered Otto Porter, and we didn't offer Uchebo either as far as I know(In all fairness he was committed to NC state). I wonder if there were issues there that are beyond our pay grade, or if it is just a product of CS thinking he had the best frontline in the country returning.
Just thought of another "Blue Chips" quote with regard to my previous post about getting Daniels, Lacey, and Uchebo.
"You get those 3 guys, you are in the Final Four, NEXT YEAR!" :) Sorry, couldn't resist.
On a side note:
Recently HEM, provided me with an avatar suggestion. It was a very good one, but I respectfully declined and said I would keep looking. The truth of the matter is that I never planned to get an avatar, because I never planned to read or post on this site as much as I do. There are a good number of posters(board rats as Jaybate so affectionately refers to you/us) that, well, just plain make this site very addictive. Give yourselves a pat on the back guys and gals. The effort of your fandom is truly a thing of beauty.
Anyway, now to the point. Having had an experienced and respected poster such as HEM offer an avatar suggestion, whether meant this way or not, made me feel as if I have paid my dues and been around long enough to get my very own avatar. So Im respectfully requesting suggestions from anyone and everyone to help me find it. Thanks Jayhawks!!
I'm currently looking for a new avatar myself, but if you can find a picture of the redhead from the Texas game a couple of years ago I'd say you have a winner!
You're right about us not offering Porter. I don't know what the reasoning behind it was. A couple of my own theories are that (1) it is for the reason above, that he is not a post player but rather a wing, and Self had his eye on Daniels and did not want to offer Porter, either for fear that it would deter Daniels (and even possibly Lacey) or that he didn't think he was better than our current options (Releford, with McLemore spending some time there as well). My other theory (2) is that he is indeed a post player, but Self was afraid signing Porter would scare off Jamari Traylor and Self wants him, not necessarily because he thinks Traylor is better than Porter, but because he is using Traylor as bait to get Daniels in here (since they both attend IMG). In essence Self was hoping to keep Porter on the line as a back-up plan for Daniels and/or Traylor, but when he committed before the other two the plan was moot.
As for Uchebo, if I remember correctly he was just released from his LOI on April 15, so maybe something is in the works and we just don't know about it. Or he could have no interest in leaving the state of North Carolina or the east coast in general. Not a lot of information out there about him, but like I said before...he'd be a player worth targeting if he can be got.
Agree that it seems like shopping on Christmas Eve racing around getting the last gifts that everyone else has passed over and are the little worse for the wear and tear of being on the shelves since after Thanksgiving.
I don't blame Self for not figuring out who would be going and who would be staying. But there's no sense in harum scarum bringing in half-baked projects in the hopes something pans out. With the stampede out of UT, KU can contend for the B12 with the players they have now. The team could also get a mid-range seed and even make a run at the S16.
If it takes '11-12 to set the stage for 12-13, so be it.
Maybe try posting this a few more times to try and add credibility.
Yeah rivals, espnu, and whatever else they have to rate players is fun to look at!!! Honestly now a days it means more for the one and dones then anything though. If this kid has a great work ethic on and off the court he will get better. Who knows could be a great player by his third year, which you will not see with the one and dones. Im ready for some physical kids with chips on their shoulders that take the ball to the rack!!!! Im tired of this hanging around the 3pt line garbage. Give me a kid that is not afraid of some scratch and bruises over a number one overall seed that just shoots 3's anyday. Not mentioning any names, just saying!!!! With these kids mixed in with talent we have already will make for great practices, which will make for another great season!!
That was Tyrel Reed last year.
Sherron was the baddest, scrappiest guy there was who just happened to be Mr. Impact, too.
RR was doing it for two years.
Darnell did it for one full season.
Langford did it for a year.
Frankly, Self has had a run of scrappy players.
What he needs is a scrappy team in the age of XTReme Ball.
VCU wasn't a hugely talented team, but they were a scrappy team, every last one of them.
It got them a long way down the stretch.
It always does.
Fire in the belly.
Burn baby burn!
Sherron sucked his senior year when he was "the guy". He was great with a great cast around him but pretty average when not surrounded by future NBA players. Yes he scored alot but he shot a lot and didn't shoot well in most games. I know a lot of people love him and he helped us win the NC in 08 but he really didn't do much after that.
Evan Daniels, National Recruting Analyst for Scout. Com says Kimbro and handlers reached out to KU and KU did not really respond back to him. He says it is highly unlikely the kid will visit Lawrence. Sounds like a kid who is blowing alot of smoke with some top programs. There is no need to get excited about any possible visit.
Speaking of arrogance & too good...
The pressure cooker continues to heat up the hair gel to near flaming in Lexington. This story from Kentucky is, again, regarding the aide who left the UK program a few months ago & the unreported phone calls he made for the Kentucky & Memphis basketball program in a Nick Nolte "I didn't do it, this is my cell phone not the University's" kind of way. This story goes into more specific detail why (what kushaw was suggesting) UK reporting Batley's transgression as simply a "secondary rebounding violation" could explode on Calipari in the near future. In simpleton's terms, in a very Nick Nolte way, UK did not report what really happened with Calipari's employee/friend. They reported nothing of phone calls from this non contact aide. Nothing. If the NCAA gets involved this summer, the question ultimately could become... How many other players did Calipari's aide land for him at Memphis & UK. How many from this year's team. How many from last year's team? How many from 2008? And heres the biggest laugher question... Did Calipari know? If so why did he allow it to continue? Did he feel like without his non contact aide & his undocumented cell phone minutes he couldnt land Demarcus Cousins at Memphis? (& later Kentucky where the cell phone aide followed Calipari as Cousins apparently liked). Here's the story from Kentucky. If this isn't impermissable phone calls from a guy connected to shoe money & agents, then I don't know what is:
"The violations stem from an NCAA rule that only allows for the head coach and three named assistants to contact recruits by phone. Batley was not an assistant, and both Cousins and Rose admitted to having a working relationship with Batley - often talking to him on the phone prior to their enrollment at their respective schools."
Anybody have a relative that works in the NCAA compliance office?
I love it.
And the Chicago paper has reputedly not yet backed down from the story about the $200K payment.
Just thought I would get my reps in for the day. :-)
Can any of these recruits shoot free throws? We need that on the team as much as anything, regardless of their talent.
+1...plagued us the entire season this year.
What Self needs, and what every D1 coach needs, is a FT shooting coach as effective as Manning is with big men.
Mclemore would wipe the floor with this kid
Has Ben Mac actually signed?
Maybe Self's interest in this guy stems from some concern about Ben Mac signing.
He's signed a letter of intent. Question would be will he qualify.
Maybe someone else is jumping ship?
See my post to bennybob.
Visiting here in Huntsville, Al, They just announced that Trevor Lacey has narrowed his choice between Alabama and Kentucky. Will announce his decision in 2 weeks, May 6 weekend.
Looks like Calipari's ex-assistant coach with ties to shoe company money & swingin agents still has a cell phone.
What? I thought he was visiting KU next weekend.
Yeah, I don't see anything about this via the usual sites I peruse. Until I do, I'll consider it a rumor.
That is what I thought too, until the local Huntsville NBC station had him on for an interview. And the one Kentucky guy in the family doesn't believe he will go to Kentucky do to that group returning most everyone and the commitments they already have, not enough playing time.
Besides CS needs to concentrate on bigs, we have plenty of small people.
Here is what ESPN says about the kid:
Although this left-hander's game is a little unorthodox, Kimbro knows how to score. He is strong and explosive with good size on the perimeter. He can put it on the floor and get it to the rim or he can knock down the pull-up jumper. He has an attacking mentality and is relentless at putting pressure on his defender in both the half court or transition.
He can be a good defender, but had the tendency to gamble too often looking to make the big play. Average shooter from three point range and that is the next area of his game that he must develop in order to keep defenders honest and from sagging off. Also must develop more of a right hand to give him secondary offensive moves beside going to his left every time.
Tony is a physical athlete that caused miss-match problems because of his strength and quickness. He's a strong and very athletic wing with a college body. I love his intensity level and his all-around play; he should develop into a solid high major prospect in the 2011 class.
**Note - This was written by an ESPN evaluator not me. Therefore, wherever you see the word "I", it is not my opinion.
Not that I trust Espn for analysis, but certainly sounds like someone capable of playing at a high, Elite Major.
The thing that stands out to me is the attacking mentality. Selfs top recruits we have got the past couple of seasons didnt have this. I understand Xavier played a good part in the national championship, but never really attacked as well as i thought he would. Just don't want to see us live and die by the 3 line. Last guy we had was sherron even though a little wild at times. We have got the guards to do it we seen it from TT way late in this year, but we did see it. TT big 12 championship game was off the hook. If he plays with that mentality and our guards follow suite, it will open so much for our bigs that we will be ok with what we have got nxt year. Imagine what the twins could of done with that kind of opened up space all season. So for me next season our national title run will depend on the guards and lucky for us we got the best in college in my opinion.
Not to knitpick but,
Xavier played absolutely no part whatsoever in the national championship(was still in high school at the time), and you are correct, he didn't attack that much. Also, I know I can be somewhat pesimistic at times, but I think others will agree that the terms "national title run" and "next season" probably need not be in the same sentence at this point for KU, unfortunately. ROCK CHALK
Shouldn't that be our goal every season...
Wouldn't it be foolish for a 7 time defending conference champion to assume they are NOT a Contender. Granted the roster has holes, but what contender doesn't have holes ?
Of course it should always be our goal. All 4 should be our goal. I think others will agree that you can throw out #1 and #4 if we were to win the national title.
My point is simply that while I would love to think we have a legitimate shot at winning the national title next year, I just don't think that. Im not alone in this thinking. I have seen many many many posts that say sweet 16, and things of that nature. I must agree with that assessment. I call them as I see them, and I don't see a national title team shaping up at this point. It's great to be a fan, but a rational, and realistic fan will find much more respect amongst their peers in my honest opinion.
As for me,
I see as much chance this coming year as any year....
Takes the same amount of wins and takes the same amount of Luck.
Sometimes you are more seasoned for it, Sometimes it comes out of nowhere, but It takes three things to get there.
No one can realistically say how we will grow from Now until November.... I think it's reasonable to assume we will get an invite, that's not arrogance that's just past history staring us in the face. We don't historically not get invited.
The rest comes from November to March/ April, and I'm willing to wait until November to pass any judgments on what has been done or will be done.
I don't outright ignore goal 3 because No one saw it coming..... Do you think many fans at UCONN reasonably thought.... You know what.... Kemba Walker is going to go crazy and play in one of the worst National Championship Games in recent memory, and we are going to win it all !
No they didn't, because they Kemba Grew from the Summer to November, the team grew from Summer to November.... They didn't win their conference regular season, but they never lost a tournament elimination game.
Duke the previous year had no post game going into March.
North Carolina was the consensus pick and the first consensus pick to win the title since Uconn in 2003 ?
So While just about every team in the nation feels exactly the same as you given the year... There is no chance. I tend to defer that decision until it has to be made.
I basically agree. But I also said in my post that i don't see it at this point. There are alot of points between now and then that may change my view. I just don't see it at this point.
Someone giving Tyshawn his due. As far as Guards go I do think we are severely underrated.... and in a lot of ways under respected, even from our Fan base...
Elijah's a very solid Combo, capable of doing damage when let loose.
Travis is a defensive mad man, with an improved shooting stroke.
Naadir's said to be Pro Level proficient at our Offense before Boot camp.
Off the topic but watching Westbrook and Affallo go at it. Still have remorse losing to those guys, but I mean come on Westbrook Affallo and Kevin Love we were running around trying to figure out which NBA player to guard. Still mad about that lol
Right about Xavier my fault.... On the national title run we are in the running every year. We are Kansas!!! So what if we don't sign a bunch of one and dones they are bad for building a dominate program. Ask coach Self and his team if they don't think they have a chance for a title run each and every season!!!!
I do think our guards are stacked. Reason being is experience and ability. Taylor senior Releford junior Johnson junior Mclemore fresh. Tharpe fresh. young mixed with experience. Hard to keep talent in school.
"Who Is Recruiting the Big Men?"
There has been a lot of focus on Bill Self's failure to drag in any highly ranked bigs since the Twins.
I have made the argument that it has been tough for Self to land a big man because he has not had much PT to promise to guys during recruiting this past season, or the one before it. Much of this season Self thought the Twins were coming back next season, and most of the blue chip bigs signed early.
Also, as I have noted often here the last 2-3 years, we have perhaps entered into an era of check book recruiting. One can't really prove this sort of charge until something cracks. But the Chicago story about the $200K issue involving UK seems to be one smoking gun. And then there are the more subtle indicators of bigs who ought to want the best big man coach they can get, repeatedly skipping the opportuntity to work with Danny Manning. If there were no checkbook recruiting, based on the success of KU bigs in getting drafted, and based on the sharp season to season improvement of KU bigs during the period Manning has been coaching them, one would expect KU to practically have its pick of big men these days, if...there were no check book recruiting going on.
But many board rats seem to want to suggest (in rather vaguely defined terms) that Self is somehow failing at recruiting big men; that he has some how botched something.
Okay, I will go with that for awhile. I will play some take what they give us and see how it goes.
Self brought in Kaun, Giles, Julian, Shady, Darnell and Cole. That's quite a stream of big bodies. And he managed to keep Padgett at least one season before he grew discontented and transferred. The Twins might even be added to this list.
But since Danny Manning has started to be a full time assistant coach with recruiting obligations, KU's success recruiting bigs has sharply fallen off.
I am a huge Danny Manning fan and there can be no doubt that he can coach big men.
But can he recruit them?
Do you see where I am going to here?
No, I am not trying to diss Danny here.
I am saying correlation is not causation, or even statistically significant probability.
Despite the fact that the big man recruiting drought has coincided with Danny's arrival and tenure as a recruiter on the staff, it just is not plausible that Manning would actually be scaring big man recruits away. The guy has charisma. He is affable. He knows the game up one side and down the other. He has sexy connections. He has a ring. He has played in the L. He has already developed some raw talent into excellent big men. Common sense, high tech analysis, scholarly wisdom, and street smart cunning would all converge on Manning not being the problem.
Similarly, Self is not "the problem."
College basketball recruiting is substantially a numbers game. The numbers are playing time and time to get to the pros.
Time to get to the pros depends significantly on how quickly one gets to do his thing on the wood.
Playing Time aka PT depends significantly on competing talent on the roster.
5-star bigs know they can start and competed from Day 1, if there is no other blue chip big ahead of them.
4 and 3 star bigs know they can develop in 2-3 years, if there is at least some first back-up PT available.
And so on down the accordion of talent.
Coaching greatness, charisma, and skill, can only do so much.
If there ain't no PT, then there ain't no PT. Period.
And even if the coach lies a few times about there being some, when there isn't, well, it shortly comes out in the wash, when lied-to players show up and don't get the PT and jump.
Every coach who becomes successful and attracts a lot of talent is stuck with this predicament.
Sooner or later, the lack of PT to give to attract the top talent is going to lead to a fall off in recruiting.
It happened to Donovan. It happened to Howland. It happened to Dean, to Knight. It happened to Consonants. It happened to Roy. It happened to Calhoun.
The chief exceptions to this law of boom-bust cycles in recruiting have been Wooden, Tarkanian, and Calipari.
Wooden apparently had Sam Gilbert.
Tarkanian specialized in talented players that were too hot for most coaches to handle, and, well, he was hounded his entire career back in the days when the NCAA still actually tried to enforce recruiting rules.
And Cal reputedly has considerable help in the back ground and has crafted his program to be a one year AAU academy on steroids that serves mostly OADs.
So: reason tells us two things:
a) boom-bust cycles in recruiting are a structural part of the game;
b) there would seem to be some check book recruiting exacerbating the boom-bust cycle that is playing out;
c) Self has done better at deferring the bust phase longer than most;
d) it ain't Danny's fault;
e) it ain't the staff's fault; and
f) it ain't Bill's fault.
Structural, cyclic recruiting busts happen eventually. as surely as the owners of the Federal Reserve cyclically collapse the economy, to reconcentrate ownership under their and their allies control at ten cents on the dollar, before restarting the next business cycle.
A bust phase appears to be forming now.
The good news is we have a great coaching staff that is sure to get the most out of whatever we do have, eek out more wins than lesser coaches would with the same talent, and are proven recruiters that will jump start the next boom cycle ASAP.
But then again, KU was thought to be seriously depleted going into this past season, and after the '08 ring season, and picked to fall off sharply both times, and Self found a way to mask and patch and win 26 with Cole and Sherron, and then 35 with this year's bunch.
In some ways, next season looks to be a tough one unless Withey can come around.
Maybe he will.
But if he doesn't, and if the W&L statement takes a dive, well, these things do happen.
Even to the great Self.
+1. And there is rationalism.
Someone who sees what this staff is capable with bringing in the big guns. and Without.
To say in April we are doomed in November, is insanity.
Erratum: Oops! Reason tells us "six" things, not two. :-)
Man, judging by all of the long winded posts I am getting the feeling they should change the name from "discussion board" to "manifesto board".
We have an infinitive here: to manifesto!
We invented it in the world of basketball posting.
It is okay to go long here.
It is okay to go short here.
It is okay to go in between here.
It is okay to manifesto here.
It is okay to haiku here.
It is okay to get out of time and into space here a la Charles Olson aka Maximus.
It is okay to go interior monologue here.
It is okay to get down and into a little Robert "M!@#$%^!ing" Browning here.
It is okay to get into the way, or get out of the way, here.
It is okay to channel Lao Tse.
It is okay to post "On the Road" by Jack Kerouac here.
It is okay to post "On the Road with Charles Kuralt" here.
It is okay to be a Dharma Bum here.
It is okay to eat a Naked Lunch here.
It is okay to recite V here while reading Gravity's Rainbow here.
It is okay to go jest infinitely here with a tennis racket and some meds here a la David Foster Wallace.
It is okay to speak the truth here.
It is okay to lie here if that is the only way to speak the truth here.
It is okay to chant here.
It is okay sometimes to get a great notion here and to channel Ken Kesey with a sailor's song at a garage sale here.
It is okay eat a Naked Lunch here.
It is okay to scream My Antonia! here.
It is okay to grip on Dante's Inferno here.
It is okay to evacuate stats here.
It is okay to get into game theory here.
It is okay to mine the Urban Dictionary here.
And it is most certainly okay to manifesto here.
Nouns can be verbs here.
Verbs can be nouns here.
Space can break down in to time compliments of Herbert Spenser here.
Time and Western Man can recombine here in Gloucester, Massachusetts here by reconnecting most deeply with the Mayans hot for the now here.
This is basketball time breaking out into hoops space here.
This is the immaculate perimeter and the corrupted block here.
This is the opening tip and the closing buzzer.
This is the hoop site of record for Kansas basketball.
It is okay to get better at manifestoing here.
Come to manifesto here and the Kaw runs.
Aw geez, just when I was getting over the sausage/cheese/crackers you bring up naked again.
Why did you comment to jaybate? You should have known he would reply is six pages of "what ever it is" that he routinely shares.
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