Monday, April 19, 2010

Selby a ‘home run’ for Self

Kansas recruit Josh Selby of Baltimore, Maryland, puts up a shot as he and other players shoot around Thursday, April 15, 2010 at The Sports Club/LA in New York during a practice in preparation for Saturday's Jordan Brand Classic at Madison Square Garden.

Kansas recruit Josh Selby of Baltimore, Maryland, puts up a shot as he and other players shoot around Thursday, April 15, 2010 at The Sports Club/LA in New York during a practice in preparation for Saturday's Jordan Brand Classic at Madison Square Garden.


Josh Selby commits to KU

Star recruit Josh Selby committed to play basketball at KU Saturday. The highly touted recruit will join a Jayhawks team eager to have his talents.

Reader poll

How many years do you believe Josh Selby will stay at Kansas?

  • 1 32% 988 votes
  • 2 53% 1648 votes
  • 3 9% 300 votes
  • 4 4% 140 votes

3076 total votes.

Bill Self, who is a big fan of the national pastime, recently used a baseball analogy to describe his goals in recruiting for the spring signing period.

“We need to hit a home run,” Kansas University basketball coach Self said after losing not only senior Sherron Collins, but junior Cole Aldrich and freshman Xavier Henry to the 2010 NBA Draft.

He felt as if he’d bashed a grand slam Sunday when the paperwork of No. 4-ranked Josh Selby arrived via the fax machine, making official Saturday’s announcement that the 6-foot-2 Baltimore Lake Clifton High standout would be a Jayhawk.

“This is a big day for our basketball program,” Self said Sunday. “We felt like losing the caliber players we lost off of last year’s team, that we really needed to hit a home run from a talent standpoint in the spring signing, and we’ve done that with Josh.

“He’s a point guard that can score. He’s a playmaker. He can be a great facilitator and also a great finisher himself. We’ve been really fortunate to have really good guards here, but certainly Josh is the most highly recruited guard that we have signed since we have been at Kansas.”

Selby averaged 32.0 points, 7.0 assists, 5.0 rebounds and 2.0 steals a game last season for Lake Clifton.

“We are so appreciative to Maeshon (Witherspoon), Josh’s mother, for how they handled the recruiting process and how they have raised Josh,” Self said. “We are excited to have the entire family come be a part of our family.

“Josh comes from Lake Clifton High School which has a solid reputation in producing great players,” Self added. “He has been extremely well coached by Herman Harried, who has been great for Josh in his development as a player and as a young man.”

Life now returns to normal for the Selbys. Witherspoon in a phone interview Sunday said the family is elated recruiting is over.

“I think the people who mattered most are happy. Josh is happy. Coach Self and the fans are happy,” Witherspoon said.

She indicated it’s possible she will relocate to Lawrence.

“Since he has made his commitment, I will start looking for a job in my profession. I will see how things pan out. I want him to get comfortable with Lawrence, but I’d have to see how the job market is first,” said Witherspoon, who is in retail management. “If the salary is comparable, I may consider moving out there. A lot of other parents do live out there and like it.”

Of course, it might just be one year in Lawrence. Selby is considered a likely “one and done” to the NBA player.

“We have not discussed the one-and-done situation,” Maeshon said. “A lot of people have. Josh has the best way of saying it: God will let him know when it’s time to leave. I think in his mind, he’s saying he could be there (longer than a year). In his heart he is probably thinking he is one-and-done.

“I think for any kid, the opportunity to play in the NBA has presented itself faster. You’ve got to see how you perform. (But) those are grown men, and it’s a different game. You have to see if you are ready for that.”’s No. 13-rated player, Terrence Jones (6-8, Portand, Ore.), said he is planning an official visit to KU. He has KU, Kentucky, Oklahoma, Oregon, UCLA, Arizona and Washington on his list. The Jayhawks, who signed 6-3 Royce Woolridge in November, have one scholarship left to give in recruiting.

Regrets: KU senior Sherron Collins, who had a Barnstorming Tour basketball game in Garden City on Saturday, said he felt “sad” that he missed Monday’s KU basketball banquet.

He was in Chicago signing with an agent that day.

“I was real disappointed,” Collins told the Garden City Telegram. “But I think my coaches and my teammates and everybody who was at the banquet understand how much preparation it takes to get ready for the NBA Draft. Around this time is an important time because you’ve got to get your workouts in and everything.

“The fans at Kansas have been great. The University of Kansas has done so much for me. I would have loved to have been there. I'm going to try to make the (senior) scholar banquet and try to get to any other thing I can. It’s just unfortunate that the draft and getting ready for it, you just have to be so many places, trying to be at three places at one time. I wish I could have been there. I was sad to miss it, but the guys know what I’m doing.”

Collins is working out in Las Vegas with personal trainer Joe Abunassar of Impact Basketball, who also is training Iowa State’s Craig Brackins, Oklahoma State’s James Anderson, UConn’s Stanley Robinson and Michigan’s Manny Harris.

“We’ve got like an All-American team out there. So there’s a lot of competition. It’s real good to be working with those guys,” Collins said. “It’s been rough. It’s a great city, but the workouts have been tough. But it's all good. It pushes you to the limit and gets you ready, something I need. So it’s great.”


bluefirebird 12 years, 1 month ago

I didn't think X should've left school after one season. I thought he was too streaky but more importantly much too passive. That being said I'm really excited to get Josh Selby. I think his style of play is a perfect fit for KU and Bill Self. I really doubt whenever Selby leaves there will be much debate as to if he is ready.

DevilHawk 12 years, 1 month ago

You could argue that everyone was passive on offense except for Marcus Morris.

There were several times during the year that we played better Collins on the bench. I think that was because everyone - especially X and Taylor - deferred to Collins to score when he was on the court.

Martin Rosenblum 12 years, 1 month ago

Let's not put any carts before any horses. As the commentators during the Jordan Brand game remarked, when they weren't singing Harrison Barnes and North Carolina's praises, It will be intersting to see how each player handles the instatnt reality of how their new college coach must take these new talented players into their folds. They are used to being the king at their levels in high school and at the AAU levels, ala Selby's stats in the article. A number 4 ranked player coming out of high school will be throwing up into a trash can beside a walk on in a few months at perseason conditioning workouts.

Nice to hear from Sherron, Those are the sort of things we wanted to hear from him. Glad he made the Barnstorming Tour. He and Josh Selby do need to spend some time together at some point. There needs to be a handoff of sorts from one Jayhawk leaving to one coming in. Maybe Sherron can have some influence on Selby to stay in school like he did.

Kye Clark 12 years, 1 month ago

I know there's has been some hard feelings expressed on the message boards directed at Sherron for missing some events (in particular the banquet), but it's small potatoes really. He gave us four amazing years here. Four regular season conference titles, three conference tournament championships, was the winningest player ever as a Jayhawk as well as receiving many other personal accolades, and was instrumental in bringing home our 3rd NCAA title. Not that I had any doubt, but it's good to see him express some sadness & disappointment over missing the team banquet. You can tell he's got crimson & blue pumping through his veins. I was fortunate enough to meet him and watch him play one more time (albeit in a relaxed exhibition/charity game setting) this past Friday night at the Barnstormers even in Wichita. I know the disappointing end to the season and his collegiate career have skewed things a bit right now for a lot of fans, but as time passes those memories will fade to the background and the great moments of his career will be what defines his time here: bursting onto the scene as a freshman and being at times the best player on a court filled with NBA talent, obviously the heroics of the '08 title game, his clutch performances and putting the team on his back willing us to victories the past 2 seasons, and his emotional senior night speech. So go do what you need to do Sherron to put yourself in the best possible position for the next level. Rock Chalk Jayhawk!

Kye Clark 12 years, 1 month ago

ugh...typos. should be "Barnstormers event in Wichita."

Sam Constance 12 years, 1 month ago

I agree with everything you said. Any follower of KU basketball who allows their memory of Collins to be tainted by that game against UNI deserves to have their fan status revoked.

I'm excited to see what Selby will do, but Collins will always have a special place in my heart for his contribution to the Kansas basketball program.

Tim Bingaman 12 years, 1 month ago

I love this team!!!!! Congrats and welcome Josh!

NH_JHawk 12 years, 1 month ago

It's been said/proven before that having success in college BB starts with good guard play. For us to sign one of the most highly recruited PGs since Self has been at KU is remarkable. I can't wait to see Selby show us what he's got. Landing Selby takes away a little bit (and I repeat little bit) of the pain from how our season ended. Can't wait 'til Late Night. Welcome to Lawrence, Josh!

Martin Rosenblum 12 years, 1 month ago

Addressing the baseball reference:

Signing Josh Selby was more like a grand slam than just a home run while the Xavier Henry signing was more like the Cardinals/Mets 20 inning game!

Kent Wells 12 years, 1 month ago

Unfortunately, El Birdos lost the game. Wait a second, so did KU...

bradynsdad 12 years, 1 month ago

icthawk316 i was also at the game my wife and i are big sherron fans. your right him helping us to all those victories kind of gives him a slight pass to prepare for his future. hopefully selby will use sherron as his role model.

Kye Clark 12 years, 1 month ago

were u the ones who walked away with that autographed, game-worn jersey? Wow! I don't know a lot about memorabilia, but $2,500!

hawksince51 12 years, 1 month ago

I agree--Sherron gave us 4 good years so if he wants to skip banquets and cut classes that should be his choice. His chances of making it in the NBA are not great so he needs to do what he has to do to increase the odds.

Ron Franklin 12 years, 1 month ago

I will trade an autographed basketball for the right combination/pair of tickets. The ball is autographed by all of last years players, less the Teahan & CJ.

Make an offer!!

AsadZ 12 years, 1 month ago

It is great to land Selby. How will Self manage minutes b/w Selby, TT, EJ, CJ, Reed will be interesting. Certainly a good problem to have and I am sure HCBS will figure out a way.

gojbirds 12 years, 1 month ago

Maybe Barnes and UNC were the focus of the ESPN analysts during the first half of the Jordan Brand Classic, but during the second half it was all Kentucky and Coach Cal. I wanted to see more of Selby, but I had to turn it because I couldn't stomach the felatio they were throwing at Calipari.

FarSideHawk 12 years, 1 month ago

To be fair, they did talk about Selby and KU a lot also during the first half. 2nd half, it was back to their usual selves.

David Meredith 12 years, 1 month ago

Nice to see Sherron finished his spring semester early

hawksince51 12 years, 1 month ago

I am an OAD skeptic, especially at the PG position because it is a very difficult position for a freshman. However, after watching Selby Sat. night I feel he could be a great player for us at the 2 early next season while he learns the system. I have followed KU basketball for years and have not seen a KU guard recruit with this much potential since JoJo White.

JayhawkRock 12 years, 1 month ago

Good article on Jones, Selby, and Ross...A KU team source says Kansas could get Ross and Jones even though they only have one scholarship to give...Sounds like Brady may be giving up his scholarship

Kye Clark 12 years, 1 month ago

Has Doron Lamb already been hanging out with DeMarcus Cousins? From the article:

Said Lamb: “I’m gonna try and recruit them but I think they’re gonna come to Kentucky, though.”

Well said professor.

KUFan90 12 years, 1 month ago

Oh no...not the "Brady will give up his scholarship" rumors again...

Hank Cross 12 years, 1 month ago

I don't care about Brady giving up his scholarship. It's his minutes (and Reed's) that need to be taken away.

Theutus 12 years, 1 month ago

I don't know how you can honestly say that, when Reed was one of our most consistent shooters (and defenders) throughout the season...

It really boggles my mind that Reed still gets no respect.

Sam Constance 12 years, 1 month ago

Agreed 100%. He showed this year that his game has more depth than just spot-up three pointers. Reed will get his minutes and I'm guessing he'll be pivotal if Kansas is to have success next year.

Hank Cross 12 years, 1 month ago

Reed averaged 5.1 ppg, 1.1 apg, and 1.5 rpg. What's to respect about that stat line? He only scored in double figures seven times and two of those games were C. Arkansas and Oakland. In the loss to OSU, he went 1-2. Keiton Page (an actual 3pt threat) on the other hand went 5-6 and scored 15 points.

jaybate 12 years, 1 month ago

"A number 4 ranked player coming out of high school will be throwing up into a trash can beside a walk on in a few months at perseason conditioning workouts. "--memhawk

Posting Hall of Fame First Ballot!

Martin Rosenblum 12 years, 1 month ago

So you do actually read comments. Now, I guess you'll expect us to read yours! Thanks for the props.

jaybate 12 years, 1 month ago

"I wish I could have been there. I was sad to miss it, but the guys know what I’m doing.”--Sherronatron

End of dis.

WDC_Jayhawk 12 years, 1 month ago

Unusually brief ... but typically on point. Well done there, Jay-Bizzate.

FreddyinLA 12 years, 1 month ago

Big ups to the merchants in Lawrence who have been providing employment to mothers of 5 star basketball talent. Keep up the good work.

Larry Smith 12 years, 1 month ago

Believe me, the jobs that some of these parents are getting are nothing special. The same types of jobs that they had before they moved here. Customer service, call center, retail jobs etc..No preferential treatment or salaries. Parents wanting to be closer to their kids, and doing what they need to in order to make it happen.

keith horinek 12 years, 1 month ago

Congratulations to HCBS! We all knew one of his strong points was in the recruiting area. I find it hard to believe Selby is his highest recruit ever. With all the success HCBS had at tulsa, Illinois etc. one would have thougt he's been recruiting high talent all along. Just goes to show, he can coach kids with average and above average talent and be successful. You don't always need the top kids to be good, 2008 is a good example.

Kye Clark 12 years, 1 month ago

Well he hasn't just been signing average & above average talent. X & Julian Wright were his previously highest ranked players prior to Selby signing, both ranked #8 in their respective classes by rivals. EJ was #24 last season. Arthur #16 & Collins #21 in 2006. Chalmers #12 & Rush #13 in 2005. RussRob #27 in 2004. All 5-star recruits, 5 of which were playing on the '08 Championship team.

hawksince51 12 years, 1 month ago

Yup; except for Pierce, Roy never signed top 25 rated players outside the state of Iowa. Self has done a much better job of tapping the East Coast talent.

jaybate 12 years, 1 month ago

Many are speccing on lineups and backups for next season. Until we know if Self will bring in another player, I would rather spec on the recipe of rolls required.

Here is the recipe to be a big winner and not up like some lousy-shooting pretender like Texas last season that merely had a lot of length, muscle and athleticism.

1 brawny big that can guard the post and hedge defend the pick and roll and ball screen sets out 20-25 from the basket.

1 brawny big that can pop from the top of the circle and drive to the rim.

1 One ball handler, penetrator, creator with a 38% trey.

1 A lock down combo, quick to get back on defense, capable of wing drives, and possessor of a 40% trey.

1 shooting forward able to guard guys from 6'7" down to 6'2" who can get to the rim and shoot 40% from trey.

Note 1: each player has to be big enough, strong enough, and tough enough to do what he does with minimal TOs (10 or less) and when no fouls are being called and thugs without talent are muscling and shoving and punching baseline to baseline for two ten minute stretches during each half. Finally, the group of players has to get enough strips to yield a Disruption Statistic (steals to TOs) of 1:1.5 and preferrably 1:1.

Note 2: Two 40% trinitarians have to be on the floor most of the time. As many as three forty percent trinitarians have to be on the floor for ten minutes each half. Four forty percent trinitarians have to be in the game for 5 minute stretches.

Note 3: From January on, each must be able to play grind it games about half the time.

Note 4: In February, must play XTreme Thug ball where refs appear to be highly favoring certain teams and not others in order to yield the best TV match-ups possible, even though the biasing often does not work (e.g., Butler beating Michigan State despite apparently heavy gifting to Michigan State to try to yield a Duke-MSU final).

jaybate 12 years, 1 month ago

Note 5: From conference season on, team of players must be able to average 68 to 71 percent made free throws, so that team can win close grind it games in February and XTreme Thug Ball games in March down the stretch of most games with FT shooting.

Note 6: Must be long and athletic so as to be able to play up tempo and create entertaining blowouts of cup cakes and mid majors to entertain fans until January, after which up tempo becomes only intermittently feasible, then in March becomes almost entirely unfeasible (because of heavy muscle and no whistle swallowing).

Note 7: Must embrace XTreme Thug Ball as the new norm and be beefed up and proactively dishing it out each game.

Note 8: In the era of XTreme Thug Ball, even the super stars have to accept that the trey and FT shooting are king and queen and that athleticism is for before March and thugging and trey shooting are for from January on.

Now, creative board rats, come up with a starting line-up and situational line-ups that satisfy these criteria and you will have a Final Four team. And if your shooting holds up and you get away with thugging in possession games, whenever four down and/or embrace hand checking, you will win a ring.

Bill Self is juggling the line-ups in his mind as we speak right now, as he continues to put a full court press on Terrence Jones and Terrence Ross to get some size and shooting at the 3 and as he cajoles Andrea Hudy to add 10-15 pounds a player to every perimeter player on the team, plus 20 pounds a player to each big, except Withey, who needs 30.

So far, none of the line-ups that I've seen mentioned fully satisfy the criteria, which spells 25 to 26 wins next season, with a remote chance of getting to the FF, and not the magic 30+ required to be a dominant team with a strong chance of a FF run.

bradynsdad 12 years, 1 month ago

icthawk no we didnt get it but i did recently inherit a pair of shoes signed by paul pierce and a few others from the team. the marker has kind of faded but from what i can tel it is about six members from the1997 team. their signatures are awful and i am tryin to find a roster with their numbers.

Marcia Parsons 12 years, 1 month ago

Check our the history of KU basketball:

They have rosters by years.

92Jhawk 12 years, 1 month ago

All the speculation regarding Selby over the last couple of weeks and the Collins "is a bad Jayhawk" talk has caused me to forget about Royce Woolridge! I totally forgot about his signing while day-dreaming about potential line-ups for next's going to be tough to get minutes at the 1-3 postions in should make for some great competition, have fun Coach Self, you have your work cut out for you. We may not win the National Championship next year...or the Big 12 for that matter but I'll wager a years salary that we'd win every 6'4 and under tournament organized under the sun!

Theutus 12 years, 1 month ago

I think most people aren't mentioning him in lineup projections simply because it makes more sense for him to redshirt. Honestly, he wouldn't see ANY time considering we have Selby, Taylor, Reed, Morningstar, EJ ahead of him.

The only reason i say Selby is ahead of him (as they will both be freshman) is because he was a big media ticket. Self will play Selby regardless of his play... Just like Xavier. At least that's my take on it.

Jack Wilson 12 years, 1 month ago

Theutus .. be sure to put EJ ahead of Taylor and Morninstar in your comments from now on. I just want to get used to that ....

Hank Cross 12 years, 1 month ago

Brady and Reed should be on the bench unless there is severe foul trouble. They've had two years to make an impact and they haven't got the job done.

JayhawkRock 12 years, 1 month ago

2012 PF Zach Peters set to announce his college choice on Wednesday...Widely believed he will choose KU over UK, UNC, UT, among others...

Jeff Coffman 12 years, 1 month ago

S"h"elby GT and Rolls Royce... Nice running machines.

Jonathan Allison 12 years, 1 month ago

another player who we have who we mustn't forget about is Thomas Robinson. I suspect he will be a master "Xtreme Thugballer" next year. By November last year he was nowhere near the same player he was when he arrived on campus last summer. Dude got huge

Brett Forreal 12 years, 1 month ago

Someone tell me how Selby scores more points than Barnes and Barnes ends up with the West MVP? Maybe Barnes had more rebounds but dang, Selby looked awesome. I guess it is all about UNC and Duke. ESPN east coast bias.

Kevin Huffman 12 years, 1 month ago

Reports of others still interested in us as we officially have a scholarship left to give, but it wouldn't surprise me at all if that's it.

Pecking order for '10/'11 team:

Selby/E.Johnson T.Taylor/Reed/C.J. Henry/Woolridge Little/Releford/Morningstar Marc.Morris/Tho. Robinson Mark.Morris/Withey

I think the one who's most going to surprise everyone in a good way will be Little. It wouldn't surprise me if he ends up being one of the top two or three scorers along with Marcus and Josh. We're still going to need Reed's threes and if he's "off" might look to C.J. in that regard then. In the instances in which we play a big team Withey and Robinson become EXTREMELY important and hopefully they'll have developed a lot like how the Morrises improved greatly from freshman to sophomore years.

Chris Shaw 12 years, 1 month ago

This is my own gut feeling, but I think the swagger, confidence and downright cocky showtime attitude will be the best thing that has happened to Elijah Johnson and Tyshawn Taylor. Selby loves the "Spotlight" and I think EJ and especially Taylor should be thanking Selby in advance with Ben Franklin's because Selby's presence on the court will make Taylor shine and ultimately turn Taylor into a first round draft pick and a star in his own right.

I think Selby is going to pick up everybody's game, but I think everyone around him will become a better player and IMO turn EJ and Taylor in NBA draft picks. Selby Showtime is contagious and everyone around him is going to be affected. I can't wait to see the immediate impact of this kid. Actually, it's already begun with him simply signing with KU.

4 guard lineup at the 1 and 2 spots: Selby, EJ, Taylor, and plug in Reed wherever and whenever you want. Self is the boss and he'll find a way.

5 player lineup at the 3 and 4 spots: Little, Releford, Marcus, Terrence Jones, and Morningstar (Strictly 3 for Morningstar).

Rotation of Towers at the 4 and 5 spots: Marcus, Kieff, Robinson, Jones, and Withey (I still think his minutes are going to be limited).

KU08 12 years, 1 month ago

It's posts like this that keep me on at least an hour or two per day. I love reading fans' perspectives on this site, which are often better than the main articles. (No offense, LJWorld staff, but there's only so much space and subjectivity in a newspaper.) Great post!

jaybate 12 years, 1 month ago

"...Selby's presence on the court will make Taylor shine and ultimately turn Taylor into a first round draft pick and a star in his own right."--kushaw

Oh, lads and lassies, sure'n it tis a fine day, when kushaw waxes eloquent and suffuses analysis with the enthusiasm of a Protestant come to his sense and converted to Catholicism, whilst just having finished a morning cup of Barry's Gold Irish Breakfast Tea. Tis only right that a lad put through toughening box should escape the characterizations about being a player circling dangerously close to a bloody English event horizon inside Buckinham Palace. Ah, Maud, it feels like a revolution of the heart is upon us, at last and the wee people that keep the Irish hearts gay have been sprinkling the sand of mirth upon kushaw in his slumbers.

Always remember, a spoon of tea for you, a spoon for me, and a spoon for the tea pot, too.

KU08 12 years, 1 month ago

I know, right? That was a darn good post by kushaw!

gardenjay 12 years, 1 month ago

OH groan. One and done. Just stay in Baltimore then, and do retail management there. WHy put a business AND the b-ball team through a roller coaster?

Weren't you talking 'get a degree' during recruitment? Remember Danny Manning; it was get a degree. I mean, he actually did!!!

People respect b-ballers who understand money is not everything. But what about the top of the heap, Michael Jordan? He left one year early to the NBA. But two years later he went back to UNC and GOT his degree.

Heros do more than earn money. Tiger Woods needs to BACK to Stanford and finish off his two years there. That is what people want to see. Crimony.

KU08 12 years, 1 month ago

I'm watching the Cleveland-Chicago NBA game right now, and I think Lebron needs to go to college and play ball at Kansas. He simply has no idea what he's missing. Making millions of dollars and being the toast of Cleveland (and soon New York) are even more overrated than they sound.

chriz 12 years, 1 month ago

gardenjay, tell me what's so important about staying in school? You only have a limited time in the NBA, till you're about 35, so why waste time in school when you're younger when you can just go straight to the millions and come back later when you don't have anything better to do? I don't blame anyone who wants to stay in school. If they like school, great. Roll the dice with your health and do what you want to do. But I DO have a problem with people like you who are SO critical of people who go straight to the league. Face it: You would do the same. That's why all the kids do it. Don't think you're better than them.

Ron Franklin 12 years, 1 month ago

Crimony is the ridiculous thought that states somebody needs a degree to be successful in life.

Get off your pedestal Gardenjay.

Being educated is a privelage, not a requirement to be successful.

Ron Franklin 12 years, 1 month ago

It's a huge expectation to think that Selby will come in and have that big of an impact. I don't recall Avery Bradley doing much at Texas last year & he was as hyped as Selby, right??

My line-up assuming Selby plays up to his hype:

Selby/EJ Tyshawn/Reed (reed deserves the start, but won't get it) Mario/Releford Marcus/Markieff T.Rob/Withey

No matter how you look at it, I think they're going to be very fast next year & I"m looking forward to a quicker tempo than played last year.

Chris Shaw 12 years, 1 month ago

Jaybate: You have me rolling! I don't know if I even understand it all, but whenever you genius something up and I don't understand it, it must be remarkable. Thank You for the including me in your post.

Kye Clark 12 years, 1 month ago

gardenjay: "Tiger Woods needs to BACK to Stanford and finish off his two years there. That is what people want to see. Crimony"

Right. That's what people want to see from Tiger Woods. I'm sure that's Elin's main complaint at this point.

Look, if you don't like kids leaving early, you might as well go be a fan of some mid-major team. If you're a fan of any school from a BCS conference, particularly an elite level program like Kansas that regularly brings in 5-star talent, kids are going to leave before getting their degree.

92Jhawk 12 years, 1 month ago

Ramdom thoughts...Zack Peters is a huge, let's get the most important player of that class, the kid I really want, Perry Ellis...

As for TT, I don't know what anyone has seen that gives the impression that he can excel at the 2...he's going to play the point next year with Selby playing the off guard (I think that we're going to start 3 G's next year).

Leaving school early, when being assured a high 1st round draft pick is a no brainer in my opinion. We go to school to become educated but the main reason is to ensure financial security. If I had a son who could go to the next level after one season in Lawrence, I'd almost FORCE him to go (if I could) can ALWAYS return to college when their career in athletics has come to an end...and the signing bonus alone would give the means to do just that...

KU08 12 years, 1 month ago

I agree on all points (although I just learned of Zack Peters' existence about an hour ago). KU will be more successful with TT at the 1 and Selby at the 2 than the other way around. Also, anyone who would risk millions getting injured or regressing by avoiding the NBA an extra year is either crazy or super confident (or both). I guess he could be like Joakim Noah and already have millions, but that was a once in a century type situation. By the way, I lump Cole in the super confident category.

Kye Clark 12 years, 1 month ago

I agree with your rhetorical question "I don't know what anyone has seen that gives the impression that he can excel at the 2...", but then you lose me. I actually would have cut that off after the word "excel". I don't know what anyone has seen that gives them the impression he would excel, period. As for Selby playing the 2, I doubt it. He wants to play the point, because that's the position he'll play in the NBA. If he wanted to play the 2, or was even open to it, he could have gone to UK and played the Eric Bledsoe role to Brandon Knight's John Wall. Granted now that he's signed his letter of intent CS can tell him to do whatever he wants, but why play a top 5 talent out of position? Selby's a special player, I know freshman make mistakes but I want the ball in his hands more often, not less. The most logical transition for this team is Selby at the point. The last 2 seasons we had an impact point guard in Sherron, and had turned the 2 guard into more of a "glue" position. Tyshawn showed last year he is not capable of becoming an impact player. Last season he said he didn't understand his role. I have no doubt CS sat him down and explained to him what that role was, and I have little doubt that he told him it was more of a "glue" role. However, there were far too many instances last year of TT trying to assert himself to something beyond his role, and everytime he tried he crapped the bed (with the exception of the home game against Colorado...not exactly the best barometer). He would fail miserably at the role he was aspiring to perform, and would abandon the role which he was assigned. Really he can't be trusted to play the impact role or glue role, but he'll hurt us far more trying to game plan around him being an impactful player.

KU08 12 years, 1 month ago

From Selby's interview on TheShiver, it sounds like he wouldn't have a problem playing the 2 guard in lieu of TT playing the 1. He didn't say that word for word, but he seems to have a lot of respect for TT's abilities. I understand a lot of people are dumbfounded on how anyone could respect TT's "abilities", but I must say I'm dumbfounded how so many people have given up on him after one season that trailed expectations. He was only 19 and had plenty of reasons to have a down-year. I expect TT to have a similar role to RussRob in 2008. Speaking of RussRob, he played point on the same team as Chalmers, the no. 1 PG recruit of his class, who played the 2 guard. So it's not exactly unheard of for a PG to play a SG, especially when it's better for the team.

kualuminohio 12 years, 1 month ago

To much Hype directed at these freshmen, good lord... Is it me or has way to much been made of Selby coming to KU, lets be real he hasn't played a lick of college ball. I am not convinced that throwing so much weight on these freshmen shoulders pays off for KU basketball come tournament time. Lets set up the guys we have for success, Selby can ride the bench and pay his dues as far as I am concerned, then let him ride off on his chariot to the NBA after one year.

Let hype the players we have who have some tenior who are qualified and good. I am sure Selby will be great dont get me wrong, but we have a great group of guys who have payed their dues... The Team as is is going to be awsome... Go Jayhawks...

Hank Cross 12 years, 1 month ago

Brady should be done, but I suspect he'll still get a lot of minutes. I agree with your take on Reed except I don't consider him a deadly 3pt shooter. He doesn't have near the shooting ability of Walters, Boschee, Haas, Pritchard...Turgeon was more of a scoring threat.

mandomax 12 years, 1 month ago

I asked the other day whether Selby was 6'2" or 6'3" because I had read it differently in different places. It seems even the LJW is confused on this topic, because in the article they wrote on the 17th ( they list him as 6'3" but in this one, it is 6'2."

dynamitehawk 12 years, 1 month ago

So, I've been thinking about Witherspoon and her quote, " I think in his mind, he’s saying he could be there (longer than a year). In his heart he is probably thinking he is one-and-done."

I've also been thinking about her other quote, "I’m good. He has the college offers. Now, I need a diploma.

“He’s done half of what I’ve asked him to do.”

She knows whats best for this young man. She played basketball - hell based on her picture she could probably take me nine out of ten times in a one-on-one game to ten.


I think that Hudey needs an assistant. I think that Witherspoon needs a job. I think that she actually might be pretty damned good at keeping young men in line mentally and physically. She's got 18 years experience...

Rock Chalk!

KU08 12 years, 1 month ago

My take on Selby's impact: Anyone who says he will have little impact on KU's team next year must be crazy, ignorant, or planning on breaking Selby's knee caps. I guess you could be all three. (Relax - it was a joke!) Think about it: he's probably going to deliver Terrence Jones, who then might also deliver Terrence Ross. How can someone who could possibly quadruple our 2010 recruiting class not have an impact? Also, nearly everyone on these boards lacks confidence in either TT or EJ. Selby will most definitely push those two to become better players. If not, he will at least take the starting role from whichever one under-performs. Additionally, as often as many KU fans would complain about him, Collins and his play-making ability will be missed. Selby, with his size and quickness, may actually more than make up for Collins' departure (although no one will make up for Collins' heart).

In all likelihood only one season, Selby will star at and impact greatly KU.

jaybate 12 years, 1 month ago

We all know it should be easy for Tyshawn, EJ and CJ to reduce Tyrel's and Brady's PT to mop up minutes.

But some of us wonder, if there maybe something wrong with them, because they haven't done it already.

Its so easy.

All Tyshawn, EJ and CJ have to do is make few TOs, feed the post, be facilitating glue on offense, not let the thugging keep them from doing what they do, play sound defense on- and off-ball, plus give good help on defense, oh, and one more thing...shoot 40-47% from trey. If they do these things then Brady and Tyrel are yell leaders.

Its simple. Anyone can do it. :-)

And here's the really, really nifty part. They don't need to wait for Self to give them PT in games to prove they can do these things. They can just do it in practice before the games even start.

Self is a big "you play as you practice" type coach.

So, in practice, if Tyshawn, EJ and CJ make few TOs, feed the post, be facilitating glue on offense, not let the simulated practice thugging keep them from doing what they do, play sound defense on- and off-ball, plus give good help on defense, and shoot 40-47% from trey; then they are gold and Brady and Tyrel really will be yell leaders even before the season starts.

Now, there would at that point be the small matter of doing it in real games, when non teammates are trying to beat the snot out of you to keep their jobs.

Details, details.

It is so easy.

Why the devil haven't Tyshawn, EJ and CJ done all this easy stuff already. We all know its easy and something that can be done in practice.

Games? We don't need no stinking games. We got practices.

jaybate 12 years, 1 month ago

If Tyshawn, EJ and CJ would just do this easy stuff in practice, then they could do the really hard stuff in games, you know, the stuff like being long and athletic. :-)

Once we get rid of the guys that faded at the end of last season and put Selby, Ty, EJ, and CJ in, we are gold.

Sherron faded and he needed to go.

Brady faded and he needs to go.

Tyrel faded, er, wait, he didn't fade. He did his back up job terrifically well. We should be so lucky as to have him play the same back up roll as well as he did.


Well, let's be rid of Tyshawn just to be safe, to because he definitely faded at the end. And he only shot 34% from trey all season. And averaged with his freshman season, Ty's only a 35% trey shooer, or thereabouts. Off with his head.

Let's start Selby, EJ and CJ. EJ is bound to shoot at least 30-35% even if we blind fold him after that 29% from trey in his first season. Selby GT ought to at least be good for Sherron's 37%, right? And CJ shot 52% last season. He can make up for Selby and EJ all by himself. Or do you expect for Josh Selby to shoot 40-47 % like, say, Brady and Tyrel and so let CJ ease back to a mere 40%?

But come to think of it, we don't need no stinking threes.

We are long and athletic and can get to the rim until conference season starts, you know, when the refs cut their whistle calls and the games start getting rougher.

And threes in the Madness? We don't need no stinking threes in the Madness.

Muscle? We don't need no stinking muscle in the Madness.

Experience? We don't need no stinking experience in the Madness.

Let's not even use backups.

Tyshawn? We don't need no stinking Tyshawn.

Let's just up tempo with Selby, EJ and CJ for 40 minutes.

Let's just go for it.

The defense might be a little porous, but so what?

Selby and EJ may not be able to shoot the D1 trey, but who cares? They could make them in high school. Isn't that what's important?

And they look darned good.


jaybate 12 years, 1 month ago


Regarding your great expectations for Selby in 2011, you sound quite like many folks talking about Xavier Henry soon after he signed to play the 2010 season.

Xavier had a good season.

But he wasn't the missing piece.

Xavier shot 41.5 percent from trey, about what Brady shot in 2009, 2010, and will shoot in 2011.

Xavier shot 41.5 percent from trey, not quite as good as Tyrel's 47%. :-)

Xavier, rather like John Wall, looked his best before January, before the blue meanies came out to start thugging during conference and then become serial killers in the Madness.

Xavier was at best a third scoring option, when the going got tough.

Xavier had an NBA body and "looked" good.

Josh Selby doesn't "look" as good to me.

No one talks about Josh Selby's NBA body.

I expect Josh Selby to step in and split time with either Tyshawn, or EJ, or CJ, and average 25-27 minutes and be about as TO prone as John Wall was.

I expect Josh Selby to sparkle until January, and then go through some extremely tough sledding and get the absolute crap knocked out of him all season by thuggers.

And I expect Josh Selby to go pro, just as soon as the lock out permits, just as Xavier jumped ASAP despite simply a serviceable season.

In short, I expect a serviceable season from Josh and will be happy to get that just as I was happy to get the same from Xavier.

You have to be a Chamberlain, a Jabbar, or a Walton to really carry a team as a freshman.

Josh is just going to be a serviceable PG next season, who could, were he to stay, probably become one of the best PGs KU ever had, just as Xavier could have become one of the best 3s KU ever had, had he stayed three more years.

But Xavier didn't, and neither will Josh, and Josh will likely be remembered exactly as Xavier and John Wall are already very good freshman who survived and had serviceable seasons, but who also saw their contribution sag in the Madness where neither were good enough to carry their respective teams to a deep run.

KU08 12 years, 1 month ago

There are a few key differences between Selby and Henry.

1) Selby is better than Henry (obviously my opinion/hope, but Henry was never the same after his injury in high school and rightly fell in the recruit rankings).

2) Selby is bringing with him T. Jones and then perhaps T. Ross. Either player is better than CJ. (I know I'm jumping the gun here, but I'm trying to be positive.)

3) Selby fits the team better than Henry did. KU critically needed another ball-handler for next season much more than KU needed another outside shooter last season. Even if Selby has an above average season, he will have plenty of impact when compared to what KU could have been without him. Not to mention, Selby knows what is expected of him. Henry was passive and usually more than willing to count on Collins to put the team on his back.

That's all I got. I do agree that we need someone with the ability to make the perimeter shot. If we're lucky, T. Ross will fill that role. If that happens, Selby's impact will have grown even more.

Kye Clark 12 years, 1 month ago

Jaybate - I wouldn't say Tyshawn faded at the end. To say he faded would imply that he excelled at some point and then his performances tailed off. Wait, he did excel...for two game...almost 3 months apart...against Tenn Tech & Colorado @ home. I see your point. Just to be safe, let's start him, assuming he doesn't bust his hand in another fight with the football team. : -)

I'm in agreement with what I think you're saying, and that's that neither EJ, CJ, nor Selby have shown anything at the D-1 level to unequivocally prove they are an upgrade over TT (although Selby hasn't had his chance yet). I'm almost positive that's what you were saying regarding Tyrel & Brady in regards to posters questioning why they get minutes over some of the more athletic players. However, as far as I'm concerned Tyshawn had his chance. He was given a golden opportunity, and he blew it. Think about how he came here, originally committed to Marquette, then Tom Crean leaves for Indiana and TT falls in our laps. Given the mass exodus of talent follow the '08 Championship team he was almost handed a starting spot by default. He comes in, has an impressive freshman campaign. Goes off and excels on the U-19 team. Things are looking bright for him. Then it falls apart, and all by his own doing. The fight with the football team, whining to the press about not knowing his role, musing on Facebook about the possibility of transferring. In addition to his off-court foolishness, his on-court play regressed as well. He was far more prone to defensive lapses his sophomore season, he constantly exhibits the poorest body language of anyone on the team, and all three of his shooting percentages declined. Why he deserves a pass is beyond me. He had his chance, and he blew it. He should have to start from square one, earning playing time and the coaching staff's trust the way incoming freshman do, not receiving the benefit of the doubt.

As to your comments "Xavier, rather like John Wall, looked his best before January" and "I expect Josh Selby to sparkle until January"...well couldn't the "fades" you say Sherron, Brady, & Tyshawn all experienced be charachterized in almost the exact same way? Well, maybe they didn't start until late January/early February. Regardless, it was pretty obvious by the tongue-in-cheek manner in which you excused these late season fades that you think they deserve a pass. Atleast Wall, X, and Selby were/will be freshman, yet you seem to find their struggles (or in Selby's case your anticipation of his struggles) less acceptable than those of players who have been here a few seasons and should know what to expect. Just seemed a bit curious

Kye Clark 12 years, 1 month ago

ralster - good posts. I agree with your assessment of Brady & Tyrel. We likely saw Brady at the apex of his abilities two seasons ago. Whether he can regain that form again next season, and whether that level of play is good enough to warrant significant minutes with this group of players remains to be seen. Tyrel has indeed improved every year, and being the only reliable 3 point shot makes him a valuable commodity. I think you're right regarding his skillset. At this point of his career it's unlikely he will develope the ability to get/create his own shot. That's OK. He's a good role player that successful teams need. I was most encouraged with the strides he made on the defensive end. The young guys would do well to take note of his hustle & energy

gardenjay 12 years, 1 month ago

So, the current system doesn't support Selby getting a degree. Why go to college?

It seems like some would think KU offers something - what is that, exactly? It's not an education based on these posts. In fact, one poster said he would force his son to quit college for the money if he could.

My point was that professionals like Mr. Woods are not going back to college. What is the point, when you have millions to wield (scary). It could be that for most people putting more time in school might help them to make better decisions.

The argument that it is - and therefore should be - all about money is really uncreative and exactly why Univ. of W VA and similar programs are under scrutiny, and why the NCAA is being examined as to how big B-ball universities could possibly justify a 0% graduation rate for Af. Am's and 33% for Caucs. Most do not go to the NBA; just what do you think your fandom is doing for most of these kids that give it their all for your entertainment?

Don't get me wrong - I bleed crimson and blue. Rock Chalk!

jaybate 12 years, 1 month ago

All funning aside,

We have a lot of wonderful basketball players on the perimeter.

Which of them play depends largely on how Self decides to use Marcus.

He's going to play through Marcus; that much seems certain.

The question is: where will Marcus play and how will he play through Marcus where ever he puts him?

Self has mentioned repeatedly that Marcus could play at the 3 and 4, but we have never really seen Self play through a 3-4 swingman before.

Frankly, the offensive sets that Self has run in the past would not be particularly conducive to using Marcus in this way. The high-low and pick and roll sets like two bigs, a PG, a combo, and SF. You can use a ton of combos in these schemes, too.

The safe bet is that he leaves Marcus at 4 and keeps playing the same sets.

The next safest bet is that he moves Marcus to the 3 and keeps playing the same sets.

But there is a long shot to consider.

Kieff's top of the circle trey proficiency, efficiency and now maturity, gives Self the rare opportunity to play a true high post offense, while using two bruising, but athletic forwards and two terrific guards, one a fine shooter and the other a terrific do everything PG.

The definitive version of this scheme was done by Wooden with Steve Patterson at the high post, and Curtis Rowe and Sidney Wicks as the two near power forwards on the "wings."

This was one of the greatest and most unexpected offenses Wooden ever crafted and he was the all time offensive master mind. No one else has ever even tried to duplicate.

Why the offense was so devastating was that Patterson at high post full time completely opened up the guts of defenses to let Wicks and Rowe either step out and attack from the wings, or work inside from both sides of the lane in what amounted to a true triple post offense (not the Tex Winter kind, but a high post and two low posts).

jaybate 12 years, 1 month ago

Wooden's guards ran in tandem in this offense and so the offense initiated from either side of the centerline of the court and unfolded with almost perfect symmetry down either side. It just devastated opponents. Any time opponents tried to shut of one side of the floor the other side went wild and vice versa. And any time anyone tried to sag the ball went straight to Patterson at 22-23 feet and he drained his J. Against zones, the guards and Patterson shot the lights out, while Wicks slid into the seams in the zones and took it to the rim or bank shot the ten foot j.

It was not the great greatest talent Wooden ever had. The Jabbar and Walton teams had more talent. But it was the greatest offensive scheme to make use of a good shooting center that I ever saw. Self played around a bit at this with the hi-lo this year with Kieff popping from the top of the circle. But to really play it, Self has to commit to two overpowering physical specimens at both forwards.

Marcus Morris and Thomas Robinson could be those two overpowering physical specimens. But Terrence Jones might be even better than Thomas Robinson though Jones does not possess Robinson's overpowering physique.

The beautiful part of the high post offense with two studs at the forwards is that it turns a team without a classic low post man from a weak rebounding team into an often overpowering rebounding team. When the opponent has a true 5, you send three true studs to the boards. When the opponent has a weak 5, or a 4 playing the 5, you send two and release. Three big studs allowed Wooden's team with Patterson to dominate the boards. And to play up tempo, you have to dominate the boards. And with the kind of speed and athleticism and/or shooting that Self will have available for tandem guards (two deep), not to run would be a terrible waste.

The other thing it would do in an era of XTreme Thug Ball is put KU in a position to be bigger and brawnier at 3 of 5 position that just about anyone in the country.

But Self going high post remains a long shot.

So: before deciding who among the crowd of talented perimeter guards and forwards will play most, one has to assume where Self will place Marcus and just how much leeway he wants to give Marcus.

Kye Clark 12 years, 1 month ago

gardenjay - your post is all over the place and I'm not really sure where to start. First of all, to your question "why go to college?", the answer is because it is more appealing than playing in Europe for a year. If Josh Selby could go straight to the NBA after high school, he probably would. People go to college to increase their earning potential. You may not think that is a creative answer, but it is fact, for both athletes and non-athletes. The difference between the two is that companies by and large require a degree before feeling that potential employees are ready to succeed at their company, where as sports teams have the advantage of seeing their future employees' skills & potential on display on national television. They do not require a piece of paper to tell them that the person has learned the skills necessary to put themselves in a position to succeed within their profession, but rather they can evaluate for themselves.

Universities use these athletes and the athletes use the universities. It's the way it is. I'm not really sure what you are wanting or what your solution is. If your problem is that you don't think college players should be able to leave early without their degree...that seems a bit far fetched. What about all of the non-athletes that leave college without their degree? Should they not be allowed to enter the work force before returning to finish their degree? I would say that forcing players to stay 4 years is unconstitutional, as you are decreasing their earning power by not allowing them to enter the work force at a time of their choosing. Or if your point is truly, as you state, that professional athletes are not going back to college, and that is why they are not making better decisions, well then I would first say that using Michael Jordan as an example is not the best contrast to Tiger Woods. Sure, MJ finished his degree and is a successful business person. He is also on record as saying he has wreckless gambling habits, and his divorce was largely speculated to be due to infidelity. I would argue that putting more time in school does not help people make better decisions, not in terms of right vs. wrong, which would seem to be what you are indicating by using the Tiger Woods example. Colleges are not there to teach morals. If anything, many a student would probably argue that time spent in college is used living largely outside the cusp of adulthood.

Kye Clark 12 years, 1 month ago

As for why WVU is under scrutiny, the only thing they are being linked to is a possible "guilt by association" charge during Rich Rodriguez's tenure there, as Michigan and Rodriguez are under investigation for rules violations related to too many hours spent on football activities. Basically, they were practicing too much. Either that, or more guilt by association regarding Huggins 0% graduation rate while he was at Cincinnati, which he hasn't been there for 5 years. Unless I've totally missed something (and if I have, feel free to point me in the direction of an article), I have seen nothing where the NCAA is being "examined", nor who is they they are being "examined" by.

This is the nature of college basketball. Like I said earlier, if you don't like kids leaving early, find a middle-of-the-road mid-major team to root for, or just don't follow it all. Sure, we'd all like to see these guys here for 4 years (well, most of the guys anyway! lol) , but mostly that's for selfish reasons, because we like watching them play basketball. If the reasons were not selfish, you'd be posting things on some department of education website about how to help all kids attain their degrees and how it would help them make better decisions.

gardenjay 12 years, 1 month ago

I think I will take the Danny Manning formula any day - no surprise that money and power corrupt (people take it without preparation - that's your position), however who is to say that MJ was probably better off than he would have been otherwise without completing college. He is definitely one-of-a kind; my point being that it is really hard to go back and get a degree. You have to admire MJ for that effort; I submit it is easier to find the Tiger Woods types who do not go back and complete their education.

While you may feel this way, you really do not need my help weakening your position, since if you google 'West Virginia Basketball Graduation Rates' you will find a fair amount of interest in the subject.

College and Professional athletes who feel used and think the system needs to change abound. We have had them at KU, and they can come mow your lawn too. Yes, I think being a fan of sports is kind of inhumane when you look at all the angles- they are given this 'opportunity' to play sports and the university uses them. The university needs to give them MORE. They need counseling to offset the constant selfish interests of college coaches driven to use their bodies for their purposes, leaving them to....mostly mow lawns? What do you think they do, after your fandom?

If you are in the stands condoning college kids getting concussions, and encouraging them to get more concussions as happens on a nice fall day in football, that is supposed to make these kids better in life? Almost all of them are NOT heading to the NFL and NBA.

In the past, these problems would be solved by a Union. What do you think of that one? A Union of Amature Athletics - maybe you can help me with what the AAU does and does not do for college atheletes.

Joel Hood 12 years, 1 month ago

Josh Selby was on Lawrence’s KLWN Rock Chalk Sports Talk radio show yesterday, speaking with David Lawrence and Bud Stallworth. They asked Josh what some of his goals were while at KU. His first and only answer was,

“I want to make the Dean’s list.”

This kid is a gem. He was exceptionally humble and his mom was also very humble and grateful for this opportunity. From strictly an attitude perspective, there is no comparing Lamb to Selby. Lamb was all about “me”. Selby was about education, tradition, and hard work. KU fans will really love this kid – he has Jacque-Vaughn-esque traits to his persona.

Scott Smetana 12 years, 1 month ago

Shortest post of the day: I'm confused, who plays the 3 next year? I'm not sold on Little (especially defense) yet.

Kye Clark 12 years, 1 month ago

Gardenjay - Your arguement just keeps unfolding into more and more...nothing. You've gone from Tiger Woods & Michael Jordan to people mowing lawns. Not surprising given that I completely debunked your Michael Jordan-Tiger Woods contrast/comparison, so you really didn't have anywhere to go other than something completely off the wall & unrelated to anything you had previously written.

I'm sure there are plenty of links regarding WVU's graduation rates. Being able to google something and find links is not the same as "scrutiny". Google "NCAA investigation West Virginia"...and the only thing that comes up is the aforementioned ties to Rich Rodriguez. Google "NCAA investigation graduation rates" and nothing comes up regarding West Virginia other than a newspaper article contrasting Huggins & Duke before their Final Four game, where it mentions Huggins graduation rates at Cincinnati and mentions an unrelated NCAA investigation. Googling something does not equal scrutiny! So unless you are equating "a fair amount of interest" with "scrutiny" (which given the way you've contorted things previously, it really wouldn't be suprising), then you really have no arguement, again.

At this point I'm having a hard time finding out what it is you wanted to see happen or what point you were trying to make. First you start out and say you'd rather not have Josh Selby here if he is going to be a OAD, for reasons I'm still unclear on, other than saying that people want to see Tiger Woods go back and finish his degree and that heroes do more than earn money. Huh? Then we go on this wild goose chase through your logic about money, West Virginia, the NCAA, & graduation rates. Nothing happening there either that resembles a coherent arguement or stance on an issue. Now you're saying that the players need counseling because college coaches use up their bodies and the only thing they are capable of doing is "mostly mow lawns." Oh, and that somehow our "fandom" is contributing to this epidemic of former college athlete lawn mowers.

Please have somebody give you a hand with trying to articulate what it is you want to say in your next post, because really, this is pretty weak stuff you've been submitting.

gardenjay 12 years, 1 month ago

Ha ha. Well, obviously you're not an athlete who has been hosed by the system. Maybe you will meet one someday and change your mind.

The workhorse athletes who get nothing in return for their support of KUAD, which must be the most powerful and best-funded dept. at KU, is a crying shame. Not a new topic, so don't treat it like one.

Not to be confused with the OAD's process and the resulting turnstile effect which is negative for business would agree with. However, if you can handle it, I guess it's OK for you. Personally, I like the NBA to be separated further from collegiate bal. At the same time, I truly appreciate the sacrifice super-athletes make in getting a degree, but it usually doesn't work out (like MJ), see Mr. Woods for further information.

Kye Clark 12 years, 1 month ago

gardenjay - First of all, this is your most telling post of all. To address your statement "not a new topic, so don't treat it like one", well perhaps your should be able to articulate yourself better, because this was your the essence of your first post:

Groan. Blah blah blah. Get a degree. Blah blah blah. Michael Jordan Tiger Woods. Blah blah blah. Crimony. Yeah, nothing in there about how unfair it is that "workhorse athletes get nothing in return". Okay, well let's take a look at your second post:

"My point was that professionals like Mr. Woods are not going back to college."

Okay. Well you were clear to tell us what your point was, and that was that professionals like Mr. Woods aren't going back to college. Woods. OK, since that was your point, I'd say that Tiger's built himself into a multi-million dollar brand and that's a long ways away from mowing lawns. So really we have yet to establish the link between your posts and "the workhorse athletes who get nothing in return/not a new topic" comment. Other than that it was: why go to college, blah blah blah, what does KU have to offer, blah blah blah, West Virginia, blah blah blah, graduation rates, blah blah blah, fandom. Yeah. Moving along. Third post maybe?

"my point being that it is really hard to go back and get a degree." "I submit it is easier to find the Tiger Woods types who do not go back and complete their education." "The university needs to give them MORE. They need counseling to offset the constant selfish interests of college coaches driven to use their bodies for their purposes, leaving them to....mostly mow lawns? What do you think they do, after your fandom?" "Almost all of them are NOT heading to the NFL and NBA"

Kye Clark 12 years, 1 month ago

And I'm using your key words here to tell me what is important, like "my point is" and "I submit", as well as when you put something in all caps, because your posts are just far too convoluted and lacking any coherency. Okay, your point about it being really hard to go back and get a degree...why? Why is it hard? I mean, it might be difficult in regards to the time constraints of professional athletes, but then again you've begun to make it clear that your primary concern is for the players NOT heading to the NFL & NBA, so it really shouldn't be any harder for former athletes than anyone else. And again, I poked fun at this in my last response, but why is it that former college athletes are doomed to "mostly mow lawns"? At any rate, this is the first instance where you truly express some bitterness over some college athletes getting the shaft. So yes, here it is actually a new issue. Then we move onto your last post, and I think we get to the root of what has actually bogged down your posts:

" Well, obviously you're not an athlete who has been hosed by the system. Maybe you will meet one someday and change your mind.

The workhorse athletes who get nothing in return for their support of KUAD, which must be the most powerful and best-funded dept. at KU, is a crying shame. Not a new topic, so don't treat it like one."

All right. My guess is that you're a former college athlete, D-1, D-2, Juco...whatever, who feels in some way slighted by the system. Just tell us your story, instead of trying to randomly insert it into a conversation that started with you not wanting Josh Selby to come here because it's speculated he might be a OAD.

Some other problems I had with your most recent attempt - they don't "get nothing in return." We're not talking about walk-ons here, but scholarship athletes. So that means free tuition, books, & housing. Maybe to a punk thousands of dollars worth of higher education might seem like "nothing", but some of us non-athletes wish we could have been so lucky. And this isn't slavery ya know. Everyone has free will. If they feel that they're being exploited and the sacrifice or cost that they are incurring on their bodies is not worth the scholarship they are being given...they are free to quit. Now I too would like the NBA to be further seperated from college basketball. I hate the OAD rule, but it's the NBA's rule, not the NCAA. As has been pointed out previously on this site, KU doesn't win the championship in '08 without Brandon Rush, who was thought to be a OAD when he committed (and possibly Darrell Arthur as well). Sometimes you never know how long these kids are going to stay. So before passing judgement on Josh Selby, give the kid a chance.

gardenjay 12 years, 1 month ago

So, you also feel there should be more separation between the NCAA and college basketball. That is something I was relieved to read. This diatribe about education and sports is popular press stuff though, and there are some really disturbing facts out there.

Focusing first on the education problem, consider the fact that the national ratio of guys to gals just entering college is reversed from the 60's, sometimes now referred to as a significant gender gap. It must be interesting working in college admissions these days.

Here is a quote from a USA Today article a few years ago:

"There are more men than women ages 18-24 in the USA — 15 million vs. 14.2 million, according to a Census Bureau estimate last year. But nationally, the male/female ratio on campus today is 43/57, a reversal from the late 1960s and well beyond the nearly even splits of the mid-1970s."

Blue collar jobs are kind of Chinese now, requiring a more skilled local labor force. Yet affirmative action is now talked about as being applied to GUYS when it comes to college enrollment in some cases just to give the poor souls more of a leg up, which is interesting since originally it was to correct gender bias of discrimination against women. Guys just aren't doing as well in school as the gals anymore.

So arguing against the academic-athlete role models - sports being something guys care a lot about - seems counterproductive to the age we live in.

What should guys really do? Jesse Owens once said "I had four gold medals, but you can't eat four gold medals." He wound up as a gas station attendent, and later was cited for tax evasion. I know you will say he would have been better compensated in this day and age, and not have to pay for college; but he makes a good metaphor for the lack of skills problems of college drop-out athletes who give KUAD so much of their life. Not that problems aren't worse at Univ. of W VA, clearly they are. Go KU.

gardenjay 12 years ago

Sarcasm? I think it was a 1988 KU Larry Brown product from the b-ball team, I seem to remember an article about a year later where one of them was mowing lawns for money in Lawrence - after his b-ball was over. Not that he wasn't happy, grant you.

Nothing wrong with mowing lawns.

But while it seems accepted that the Chinese own the blue collar careers now, in the future it would seem women will own professional careers in this country given the current trends. Any plans for the guys? Even now, in a 50/50 academic situation should colleges take the guy over the gal because guys are so lame? Um, yeeessss....otherwise the gender gap would be even worse, so how does that feel to you? Don't you feel like the weak gender yet?

Duke just had an NBA first rounder say forget it, I'm getting my degree. It makes the news, for sure. Should I just forget about KU, and become a Duke fan? Please, noooooooooooooooo

gardenjay 12 years ago


Your role-modeling sounds good. However, your experiences were in a male-dominated society (but even then, it didn't help to be male when it came to Vietnam; out of 50,000 war dead, eight were female apparently).

With current trends, your son is more likely to be the next gender to experience discrimination (women are better educated). Make sure you train him not to complain - that would be wimpy! (that was sarcasm).

But not to worry, one stable industry for male employment is the prison industrial complex, although actually being in prison is certainly another male tradition with our legal system (now over 3% of the males in the U.S.). With millions of U.S. men who are or have been in prison, it could be thought of as a sort of homeland Vietnam. A prison industry of that size NEEDS to be fed incarcerations on a daily basis - what a jungle. Good luck, son.

As to B-ball, it's easy to find athletes with unplanned post-college careers, including from national championship teams. KU B-ball requires enormous focus and offers enormous distraction, so it's no surprise really. Post-grad mowing lawns, T-shirt shop, and my favorite, can't get a job so go back to college again a degree. I would say the national championship team guys wouldn't trade that time for money, so for them personally it's probably all good.

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