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Tuesday, February 24, 2009

Top of the heap

Kansas survives Griffin-less OU

Kansas players Tyshawn Taylor, Sherron Collins and Marcus Morris come together for a collective high five after a bucket in the first half at the Lloyd Noble Center in Norman, Okla.

Kansas players Tyshawn Taylor, Sherron Collins and Marcus Morris come together for a collective high five after a bucket in the first half at the Lloyd Noble Center in Norman, Okla.

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Jayhawks hang on, take down Sooners

KU defeated Oklahoma, who was ranked third in the nation, 87-78 on Monday night in Norman, Okla.

Audio clips

2009 KU-OU Feb. 23

— Kansas University center Cole Aldrich walked off the Noble Center court with Oklahoma big man Blake Griffin, Aldrich’s long right arm draped around the shoulders of college basketball’s leading player-of-the-year candidate.

“Just get well. Get better. Take your time getting better,” Aldrich told Griffin, who watched helplessly from the bench as his good buddy grabbed a career-high 20 rebounds in the Jayhawks’ 87-78 ESPN Big Monday victory over the Sooners.

“I love Blake,” Aldrich added of the preseason All-American who missed Monday’s showdown because of the concussion he sustained in Saturday’s loss at Texas.

“We text three or four times a week, saying, ‘Hey, what’s the scouting report on this team’s big guy or that team’s big guy?’ He’s a great player. He’s all class. I just want him to get well.”

And what did Griffin — who cheered wildly as OU built a 14-point lead (22-8), grew sullen as the Jayhawks forged a 20-point lead of their own (58-38) and again was out of his chair as the Sooners’ crept within three points late — tell Aldrich in return?

“Just win the league,” Aldrich said. “And keep getting better every day.”

The Jayhawks, who lost all five starters off last year’s NCAA champion and Big 12 championship team, improved to 23-5 overall and an amazing 12-1 in the league in grabbing a one-game lead over a team that KU coach Bill Self referred to Monday as “Blake-less OU (25-3, 11-2).”

Freshman Tyshawn Taylor was huge with a career-high 26 points.

He shared game-high scoring honors with junior guard Sherron Collins, who kept the ship afloat late by hitting three consecutive threes in crunch time — two after OU sliced the gap from 20 points to three.

Collins’ three at 5:07 upped a 66-62 lead to seven points.

His three at 3:12 increased a 71-68 margin to six points.

His three at 2:31 upped a 74-71 advantage again to six points.

Following the third three, Taylor hit one of two free throws and a bucket off a Tyrel Reed steal to give KU a commanding 80-71 lead at 1:10.

Here’s what made Collins’ threes even more impressive: They were improvised.

Collins waved off Self’s planned plays “three or four times” in taking command of the ballgame.

“I called a set. He goes, ‘No, No,’’’ Self said in shaking his head side to side. “He wanted to be the guy to finish the play whether shooting it or driving it. He backed up what he said he could do. Those were big-time plays.

“I had no choice,” Self added of letting Collins do as he wished with KU’s lead dwindling. “He’s the one with the ball in his hands.”

Collins, who was a standout pitcher in high school, laughed when asked if his actions reminded him of shaking off his catcher on the diamond.

“No. I had a good fastball. Most calls were fastballs. I didn’t have to shake my catcher off too much,” said Collins, who hit six of 14 shots, including five of eight threes with nine of 12 free throws.

“I felt like I couldn’t miss. The basket was as big as the ocean,” Collins added of the reason he wanted to be the one shooting late.

Standout OU guard Willie Warren scored 23 points off 8-of-16 shooting (3-of-6 threes) and vied with Collins for star-of-the-game honors down the stretch.

“Willie Warren had a great game. That young fella is really good,” Collins said.

As is veteran Collins.

“Sherron, the great leader he is, said, ‘We will not let this slip through our fingers. We will not get blown out on the road,’’’ Aldrich said of Collins’ words with KU down, 22-8, with 9:47 left in the first half. Taylor soon after erupted for 14 points in a 28-7 run that closed the half and gave the Jayhawks a 36-29 lead at the break.

“The coaches kept our heads in the game and the huddle positive,” Collins said, deflecting the credit.

A 22-9 run upped KU’s 36-29 lead to 58-38 with 10:38 to play.

It took OU just four minutes to slice 14 points off the lead and make it a game down the stretch. The closest OU crept was three points before Collins took over.

“We knew they had a run in them. OU is a great team even without Blake,” Aldrich said.

Self acknowledged the fact that “we caught an unbelievable break tonight with Blake being out. He impacts the game in such a way it certainly would have changed a lot of things. We wish he would have played, but this was a great win.

“I thought they’d be good early, rally around him not playing. I think that’s what happened. We wanted him to play. He’s a great kid, and you don’t get too many opportunities to play against the player of the year and No. 1 draft pick in the NBA. Hopefully we’ll get a chance to play again in the Big 12 tournament because it’d probably mean each of us won a game or two.”

Aldrich seconds the notion.

“Oh yeah. I wanted to play against him,” Aldrich said. “We’ve known each other so long, been great friends since the McDonald’s game. I wish him the best. I really really just want him to get well.”

Chances are Aldrich will be one of the first to know when Griffin is ready to return to action — via text.

KU will meet Missouri in a rare Sunday game. Tipoff is 1 p.m., in Allen Fieldhouse.

Comments

RockChalkJayBlog 13 years, 9 months ago

KU went on a 50-16 run. That's just mind blowing.

actorman 13 years, 9 months ago

That would be a great run against anyone, much less OU -- even without Griffin. This team is really coming together.

jayhawker_97 13 years, 9 months ago

impressive performance by KU, and Blake-less OU.. be glad the first real test has been accomplished by young Hawks! Collins can only play better and better game after game. it's astonishing to see his performance like that. he's got so much confidence - as a leader. by now, should coach Self let Collins make the call for a play? i don't mind that - he has proven himself lately! and oh, one more Big12 crown is not too much to ask, isnt' it? believe!

go Hawks!

John Mueller 13 years, 9 months ago

You just cannot say enough about Sherron Collins. Huge defensive effort on WW which clamped him down after his big start. Huge offensive effort in the 2nd half.

Most in the media forget that we don't win against Memphis last year without his steal/3 combo. All you hear about now is Mario's big shot, but he never takes that shot if Sherron doesn't make that combo play when things looked grim.

Just an unbelievable athlete and performer. I still can't believe the range on those threes at the end.

What a huge win for this team. And a terrific job of coaching by Bill Self!

How does this bunch go 12-1 in the league? Unbelievable!

And, I almost forgot to gush about TT! What a huge performance for him!!

Robert Brock 13 years, 9 months ago

An additional factor was Austin Johnson only played 23 minutes due to back problems (he was getting hot-pad treatments on the bench). In spite of that, I am impressed that rookie Tyshan Taylor could go into a hostile place like Noble and perform at that level. We needed him and he came through. Gutsy.

NH_JHawk 13 years, 9 months ago

What a great game last night! Despite this team's youth (ESPN mentioned 10th youngest in NCAA) and all the tough criticism they've taken all year long they are exceeding expectations by far. I dont think anyone would have ever thought we'd beat OU (even w/o BG) in Norman this year and be 12-1 in conference. The conference title is ours to lose now. Now back to the Phog to settle the border war!

Jonathan Allison 13 years, 9 months ago

Mizzou at home, Tech on the road, and Texas at home...

All we have to do is defend our home court and we win at least a share of our 5th straight Big 12 Championship! I can't believe it!

jayhawkinATL 13 years, 9 months ago

Just take care of business and the regular-season title is ours...AGAIN!!!

keith horinek 13 years, 9 months ago

Holy Cow! I'm at a loss for words! outstanding game guys! Kudos all around. HCBS for coach of the year in the big 12 and a strong running nationally!

lance1jhawk 13 years, 9 months ago

Great game last night. Stellar performance by T.T., Cole, and Sherron.

Can't wait for sunday to pound MiZZery into the ground.

kansaswingnut 13 years, 9 months ago

How do you lose that much talent then come back 12-1 in the conference? HCBS is the best coach in college BB. No question about it. Collins was unbelievable! One of my favorite Hawks of all time. Misery next. I'll be in the house Sunday. I can't wait. ROCK CHALK!!!!!!!!!!

David Howell 13 years, 9 months ago

5 days to get focused on kicking Misery's butt ! That is the key to winning or tying for the Big 12 championship. Tech shouldn't be a problem, but Texas is really dangerous. They have big time talent and will come into AFH aimng to take us out. We are the hunted and the hated. But that happens when you win or contend for the Big 12 championship year in and year out !

Off game for Brady and Tyrel. But that is ok, since Taylor stepped up and Cole and Sherron played their normal games. Sherron was really feeling it last night. He is becoming the complete player. If only he would quit trying to dribble thru double and triple teams.

Rick Arnoldy 13 years, 9 months ago

Collins is getting a lot of the press today and deservedly so. However, where would we be without Aldrich's 20 rebounds. I don't know how the team determines awards but I think we have co-MVPs this year.

jchawkfan 13 years, 9 months ago

It is amazing the job Bill Self has done with this team this year. At the beginning of the year there was talk about this maybe being the year that KU might not make the NCAA tourny. And here we are, sitting atop the Big 12 standings with 3 games left to play. 10th youngest team in NCAA; lost darn near every statistical player off last years team. I just don't see how he can't be the front runner for national coach of the year.

Nice win last night fella's keep it up lets skin us some cat on Sunday.

AtlantaHawk 13 years, 9 months ago

Great game with or without Blake. Time to give the Tigers a little payback! Lose 80% of our scoring from last year's championship team and have a chance to win the Big XII...Self deserves every penny he's paid!

jayhawkansas 13 years, 9 months ago

great performance by cole, tyshawn, and fearless sherron...but doesnt it scare anyone else to hear that sherron is "waving off" coach self's plays 3-4 times? I may be wrong, but last night reminded me too much of a sherron collins "personal battle." It is true that he probably saved the game last night, but this same thing has cost us games in the past (syracuse--flynn) To be dangerous in march, I think Sherron has got to start trusting teammates (and especially Bill Self) more...otherwise, sherrons first off night=our exit in the tourney

zissou 13 years, 9 months ago

Txhawk, every time I watch the final 4 minutes of the national championship game, I'm floored by Sherron's efforts. We don't win that game without Mario's shot, obviously, but Mario never gets a chance to take the shot without everything Sherron managed to do when it mattered.

Great win, and totally unpredicted. Wouldn't it be something to see us take care of business the rest of the way and wind up with that 1 seed Oklahoma was supposedly locked into? Kansas and Memphis in the discussion for 1s. Unbelievable.

Larry Smith 13 years, 9 months ago

Great game and great win!

A few observations about the Loyd Noble experience:

  1. Canned, piped in music the whole game really is terrible.
  2. The crowd had no idea what/when to cheer. They only ever got loud when the video/scoreboard told them to.
  3. 2 min to go, OU down 7 and the crowd was quickly filing out of the arena. What gives?
  4. The whole thing was more of an NBA/ Mid major feel.

Definitely a football school.

bob_woods 13 years, 9 months ago

Great game, good win. Would have liked to see how we go to war against a healthy sooner squad, but i'll take a W any day of the week!

Rock Chalk

FightingJayhawks 13 years, 9 months ago

Check out what Jeff Goodman wrote about the game.

Foxsports.com

Fred Davis 13 years, 9 months ago

That was the best I've felt after watching a KU game since beating Memphis... For all the people that dogged Sherron at the beginning of the season - how about that guy last night? I don't see how he's not a POY candidate after what he did... Guys like Sherron are what separate Bill Self teams from Roy Williams' teams... There was no way Sherron was going to let KU lose that game last night and to think he was pulling up from 25 feet and just draining 'em, that was incredible...

I live in Columbia so I've had to deal with all these Mizzou fans and they're excited about being eighth and going to the tourney for the first time in forever - but they'll come back down to earth this Sunday and I'm gonna say what I've been telling people down here - KU has all the ingredients to make a deep tourney run... They're great at the two key positions - PG and C; a deep bench; Bill Self and Championship Experience... Don't look now people - but a repeat is becoming more and more realistic every game...

Rock Chalk

FairgroveJayhawk 13 years, 9 months ago

The team keeps getting stronger. Collins showed a great all-around game, he showed more of a defensive stand this game. If he could become as equal a defender as a scorer, the man would be a high lottery pick.

Great game Tyshawn Taylor! Great focus and belief in yourself.

Many Jayhawks contributed to this victory which makes it even sweeter.

Man! I can't wait until Sunday.

jdhawk97 13 years, 9 months ago

Great win against a tough (although incomplete) team on road. This team has certainly exceeded expectations.

However, my optimism is tempered by the amazement that comes from repeatedly watching 20-point leads evaporate between TV timeouts.

JayhawkPurist 13 years, 9 months ago

A bit early, I admit, but even if Collins never earns consensus All-American honors this year or next (if he stays), I move that his body of work has earned him a spot in Allen Fieldhouse's hallowed rafters. First Hinrich (on Sunday), then Chalmers (Final Four MVP), then Collins. Any seconds?

KGphoto 13 years, 9 months ago

Taylor and Collins should get honorary bomber jackets for their performances.

It took some time in the first half to realize they weren't swatting away teams of gnats. I suggested that all the hyper-active defense that KU has been facing would make them more potent once they got away from it, but jesus, they looked 2008ish.

jayhawkansas: I don't think Self would just let Sherron just wave him off if he didn't think it might work. Collins is now one of the more experienced players in the country, and he obviously has ice in his veins. Self knows this.

I love the shot of Self bitching out Taylor. I had just posted something about conceding because we couldn't play tough road games. And that I wish Taylor would quit getting burned and become the super hero we know he is. Then I turn around and Self is tearing his ass up. Taylor and Collins start hitting NBA threes and voila.

Self is a helluva coach man.

JayhawkLova7 13 years, 9 months ago

I agree with you JayhawkPurist, Collins belongs up there one way or another. The National Championship is just one of his great games. Others have also said it but I will say it again. There would have been no 'shot' in the National Championship without Collins and Mario of course. But Collins stole the ball, hit a three, and then made the pass as he was falling down to win. No steel, no three by Sherron, no three we would have been down by more than what we were and no great pass, no shot, and not tie. Which ultimately consists of no National Championship. He showed great leadership on both ends of the court. Thats one thing I always love about Sherron, no matter what you can tell he plays his hardest until the whistle blows. He is a tough, physical player and who doesn't love that? Collins keep on playing your heart out and you will be rewarded on both ends!

Rock Chalk Jayhawk!!

nocaljayhawk 13 years, 9 months ago

RE: Jayhawk 86's post: on TV, it was obvious that the OU crowd booed every single call against their team, no matter how apparent the foul was. This despite OU going into the double-bonus MIDWAY through the second half.

distracted 13 years, 9 months ago

I don't think the Jayhawks lackluster start and the subsequent run by OU was fueled by the Sooners rallying around their fallen leader as much as it was caused by the young Hawks being confused and distracted by the jacket that Griffin was wearing. Nice to see Affliction breaking out into sports coats...

Brian Powell 13 years, 9 months ago

That shootout at the end was sick. I was burying my face every time OU nailed a 3, and literally jumping out of my chair on every 3 by Collins.

He better be glad he did hit those after shaking off Coach's plays! If I remember right, he took them early in the shot clock with not much time on the game clock...

Clutch.

Can't wait for the Mizzou game!

Paul Meyer 13 years, 9 months ago

Collins might be one of the best all around athletes KU has ever had on its basketball squad. He can shoot, pitch, and play corner back. His ability to take a game over with his confidence and drive to win is unmatched. Sometimes he reminds me of watching MJ taking the Bulls on a run to win championship after championship.

GridironHawk 13 years, 9 months ago

FreddyD... I second the post. Where did all the Sherron haters go? They all disappeared or have changed their tone. That was one of the clutchest (yes I know I made that word up) performances I have seen. He was just amazing. And the way he has lead this team all year is by far as impressive as his scoring stats. The guy understands KU won't go far without the team so he waits until it is needed to take over the game. I think he could be averaging 30+ a game if he really wanted to. Easily the best PG in the Big 12 and probably the nation.

JayViking 13 years, 9 months ago

Sherron is fantastic, clutch basketball player. Great dribble skills, good (though inconsistent) shot, great dribble penetration, great finishing. That's all great, and I love watching him play when he's on.

That being said, our team goes through long mental lapses. How many times this year have we gone 5+ minutes without Cole touching the basketball? How many games has Sherron had more TOs than A's? That is not characteristic of a team led by a "PG" who, by reading these posts, one would think is the best PG in the universe.

I don't intend to bash Sherron, but I think we're getting a little over the top here.

Steve Gantz 13 years, 9 months ago

I don't have time to do this, but it sure would be funny to compare the comments here with the running game commentary last night. If you read through those you have such inane comments as, "oh more proof we can't win on the road", or "another big Monday blowout". How many of those people then posted comments here like "great win by a great team" etc. This team has showed nothing but toughness since the beginning of the Big 12 season.

And for the people putting down OU's fans for not knowing when to cheer. Your snobbery is annoying. "Just proves OU is a football school". Well yes they are and a very good one at that. They have more football NC's than KU has hoops NC's. I'm sure their football fans make similar comments about KU football fans.

Why can't you (not everyone here) people enjoy a nice win without insulting the other team and their fans? Who cares KU fan in Mizzou if some fools nearly burned down their frat? Do you think that KU students never do anything stupid? I could list a few stupid acts of KU students from my 3 years at KU that resulted in fatalities. Just write about our team, criticize them if you must, I have too, but don't reveal your childishness by another tired barb against our rivals fans.

Chris Shaw 13 years, 9 months ago

jayhawk86: "4. The whole thing was more of an NBA/ Mid major feel."

Isn't that an oxymoron? I can understan the NBA part, but have you been to a Mid-Major game? The fans love their teams. It's a great experience! I agree with you about the NBA comparison.

Rodney Stice 13 years, 9 months ago

I got Sherrons autograph during late night his freshman year. I did not even dream that he be such a hero to Jayhawk fans during his college career.

Theutus 13 years, 9 months ago

I'm a "Collins Hater" in the sense I think he's a dumbass. And I still am.

He doesn't play KU basketball. His shot selection was AWFUL. You don't pull up from 10 feet outside the arch without so much as a pass, just because your in one of your "i can do that too" prick measuring contests. He made the shots, sure, and I still hated them. Not a SINGLE pass from him, what happened to Kansas basketball where we have a minimum of 3-4 passes per possession. Ball movement. And I don't want to hear any of this "Collins is the only one who can score so he has to" crap. Collins was absolutely worthless in the first half (which happens, no biggy) and others stepped up and brought us back into the game.

Did Collins have a great second half? Sure. Will he be consistent? Nope. He's an awful mental player, and it's his achilles heal.

How many times can you seriously force a contested shot without so much of a look at your teamates for a pass, and get away with it. It's just poor basketball in my book. I can't believe Self lets him get away with it. I don't want to be "Memphis" where we have 1 guy who thinks he needs to do everything 1 on 1 like that crap.

Thats my rant, I wasn't going to say anything and let Collins have his day in the sun, but since so many of you wanted to bark off about "Collins haters" I figured i'd chime in on it.

Theutus 13 years, 9 months ago

And for the record, I don't actually "hate" Collins. I just think his mental game is sub-par. (and no i'm not talking about his ability to cheer).

My point is that his shot selection is generally awful. He consistently has 3 or 4 completely out of control plays which result in turnovers each half... (even if they are shots, they are so far-fetched you might as well rack it up as a to).

His ability to feed the post is virtually non-existent. We should be getting Aldrich atleast 1 touch every possession.

Half the time he comes down the court, he doesn't make a SINGLE PASS. Hell, he doesn't even look at his teamates, he puts his head down, dribbles around for 15 seconds, and then tries to take it 1 on 1. That's not KU basketball.

If he corrected these issues, he'd be the greatest point guard in the country. With them, he's a liability.

arcticjhawk 13 years, 9 months ago

Great game regardless of all the negativity attached to the fact that Blake had to sit out! The last 5 minutes or so were absolutely unbelievable as Collins and Davis essentially took turns dropping bombs on each others team. I truly pitty the next team that OU plays with a healthy Blake Griffin. Judging by the facial expressions as he sat on the bench, he's going to explode on somebody. All around great effort on KU's part! 12-1 in Big 12 play!! Rock Chalk from the cold cold arctic!!

Chris Shaw 13 years, 9 months ago

"Not a SINGLE pass from him, what happened to Kansas basketball where we have a minimum of 3-4 passes per possession. Ball movement. And I don't want to hear any of this "Collins is the only one who can score so he has to" crap. Collins was absolutely worthless in the first half (which happens, no biggy) and others stepped up and brought us back into the game"

I heard there is a coaching position open at "Hickory" in Indiana. I heard you have to make 5 passes before you can shoot.

jchief40 13 years, 9 months ago

Those refs should be fined for called such a ticky-tack game. This isn't little league. Let these college players play more physical. I would like to see more NBA style refs. They at least need to be consistent. But to make matters worse they let OU get away with so much more. I've never seen such lopsided game calling. The refs did everything in their power to help OU win.

jchief40 13 years, 9 months ago

At the end of the game we couldn't even defend without drawing a foul. Lots of LATE calls to i.e. after the ball hit the rim - TOOT! Ridiculous. Those refs just pissed me off. I've watched games for years.. never have I been so pissed at the refs.

Theutus 13 years, 9 months ago

I completely agree about the officiating... We had guys getting mugged with no calls, and then they would call a ghost foul on one of our bigs, well after the shot... That was aggravating.

KUShaw, you're as qualified to claim Collins is great, as I am to say he's got problems.

Michael Auchard 13 years, 9 months ago

If this game were a movie it would been called: "Sherron Collins: Bulldog Unchained."

Kinda sounds like an Ayn Rand book, actually.

Scott Oswalt 13 years, 9 months ago

KUShaw, stop dogging on Sherron. He's the reason we won that game down the stretch. Who cares if we don't pass the ball 5 times. His 1st half was a little sloppy, but still productive. He got Taylor the open shot quite a bit. Sherron realizes he can score at any point of the game and wants to get his teammates involved early. Collins will determine how far this team goes in the tourney.

100 13 years, 9 months ago

  1. Great game KU.

  2. Obviously, half of practice this week will be dedicated to breaking the full court press. It's too bad because this is always a move of desperation by an opposing team -- that's why MU goes with this strategy from the opening tip. If a team knows how to beat it, the other team is pretty much whipped. Check footage from a KU game played in December of 1989. That's the way to beat a press. I think we scored almost 140 pts that game against Kentucky.

No more picking up the ball in a trap!!!!! (this a is grade school mistake). And take advantage of the numbers!!!!!

I have confidence we'll greatly improve in this department in the next 6 days.

  1. Get well soon Blake Griffin.

Blake, your comments showed me you're as much Jayhawk as any of us ("just win the league").

Rock Chalk

100 13 years, 9 months ago

Note to Self: Full Court Press is Fools Gold.

Make them look like fools.

Take the Gold.

Beat MU

angusmcpherr 13 years, 9 months ago

150-95 was the score of the beat-down of Kentucky. We had 80 at halftime.

Michael Auchard 13 years, 9 months ago

Hey, if anyone has access to ESPNU @ 1:30 CST and wants to (re)watch/record last night's game, it's being replayed in standard definition (bleh)... unless someone has better TV than I do.

Still, I can't wait to see Sherron hit shots from just outside the OU logo:)

kranny 13 years, 9 months ago

Theutus, The Hawks wouldn't have 10 wins without Collins.

blatantdisregard 13 years, 9 months ago

@wissoxfan83 - who died and appointed you den mother? I'm not sure whether you noticed or not but this is a board for KU fans. We're passionate about our team and part of that is pissing on the other team's parade.

kranny 13 years, 9 months ago

The Hawks also wouldn't be the defending National Champs without Collins. Enough said.

100 13 years, 9 months ago

Any thoughts on how to beat MU's full court press?

Any thoughts on how to get ALL (all) 16,300 fans off their arses during the MU game?

Scott Smetana 13 years, 9 months ago

Jayhawk86, thanks for the comment from within OU's arena. I couldn't believe how the crowd CRIED after EVERY WHISTLE. I can expect this from KSU or Mizzery, but I thought OU fans had more brains than that.

I think we found out last night that we desperately need the twins to compete at a top 15 level. They need more offensive boards, though. Also, Danny has his work cut out as they both need some polish on their post moves. I saw a lot of iron last night. They improve by the game though which is AWESOME!!! They still got the raw end of a few calls last night, but I LOVE to see them blow it off faster.

GridironHawk 13 years, 9 months ago

Theutus--- you don't even know that you contradicted your own ignorance. You said "Collins was absolutely worthless in the first half "... Why? Cause he only had 4 points and 2 or 3 assists. You tell him he shoots too much and needs to pass more but then call him worthless for doing just that? Did he not take over for Morningstar and Taylor and shut down Willie? I seem to recall he did. And thats what made his 22 even more impressive in the second half. Not only did he score 22 on very good shooting, he also was able to "shutdown" (as much as Willie can be shutdown) one of the best freshman/guards in the game. I know you will keep hating on Sherron because with his performance last night and your comments today that is obvious. However, I imagine Sherron is a guy that eats that up. He is probably the most loved and hated player because of his style (usually loved and hated by the same people just depending on his last game). By the way he holds a 1.52 A/T ratio which is very respectable especially on a team this young...

100 13 years, 9 months ago

You guys are wasting your breath. Whoever started this ridiculous debate is not a KU fan. He's an antler. how easy is it to pose on a website like this? Dont give him the time of day.

Forget the Sherron debate, we know who he is.

Now to more important matters -- how do we beat MU's press?

Theutus 13 years, 9 months ago

I'll never support the play style that Collins has apparently adopted. The "i'll do it myself without even thinking of involving my teamates because they aren't capable" attitude.

That's just my opinion, and if you disagree that's fine and dandy.

What I find funny, is that half of you were crucifying the twins for poor play... Yet no matter what Collins does in your minds he can do no wrong.

His shot selection is poor (firing up a 3 from 10 feet behind the arch without a pass late in the game is POOR, regardless of whether he hits it). He makes a lot of unnecessary turnovers because he plays out of control. He doesn't feed the post.. hardly at all actually.

These are things I think if he would just focus on, he'd be the best PG in the nation...

jaybate 13 years, 9 months ago

Theutus,

First, I respect anyone sticking to their guns with an explicit argument and posting contrary to the majority.

Second, Collins hitting a bunch of big treys in a hyped game can gloss over a lot of problems, so I can appreciate some of your doubts about Collins.

But, third, the problem your argument has at this point of the season is: KU is 12-1 and 23-5 in a rebuilding year, while depending on Collins heavily. Even if they were to lose 3 of their next four (beat TTech, lose to MU and UT and lose first round in the conference tourney), and they certainly could slump that far, for this team still has holes, this season would still be a very successful rebuilding year driven largely by Collins play. He may not play it the way you like it played, but it is no longer viable to argue that he is a liability. Hence, since reality is decidedly in conflict with your theory about Collins being a liability to the team and since one can't change the reality of what this team has accomplished under Collins' floor generalship, I recommend you amend your theory as follows: Collins is an exceptionally good PG who is still young and has flaws in his game, but who is so good that he can carry a team a long way despite his flaws, which are diminishing as the season wears on.

The beautiful part about theories is that they are able to be amended when more facts become available.

Not amending in the face of new facts implies ideology rather than theory.

100 13 years, 9 months ago

Again, this argument is not worth debating.

Are any of you shooters? I'm not talking about "pure" shooters like Tyrel and Brady. I'm talking about "go to the gym every day of your life" and win EVERY single game of twenty-one you ever play.

If you don't understand how a shooter like that feels once the adrenaline gets pumping, then there is no need to comment.

When Sherron says, the goal seemed as big as an ocean, he is not joking. Those are literally "simple" shots for a high jumping (rhythm) shooter like him in THAT zone. Is he always there? No. Often? Yes.

When he knows it's going in, it's going in. It's that simple. It's called "the zone".

How do I know? Because I wasn't a pure shooter either. I was a "the rim is as big as an ocean" shooter.

When it was, I shot it (why not, its an automatic 2 or 3 points). When I didn't feel it (the "zone" was not there) we ran the play.

To simplify this argument: trust Sherron. He knows what he feels. He knows what he sees. To him, those threes were automatic (ask his teammates if he does it all the time in practice).

RCJayhawk

PAHAWK1 13 years, 9 months ago

Last time I checked, it is a team sport. No one player is or can be bigger than the team. Games are not won or lost by one player. Yesterday, in the second half, Superman Collins carried the team but credit also should be given to other players including Taylor. Without Taylor's heroics (just like Marcus's against KSU) in the first half we would have been blown out of the Noble arena. Cole was sensational throughout the game. There were valuable contributions from the Twins, Brady, Tyler, etc.

Dale Kroening 13 years, 9 months ago

Very well said Jaybate, 100,and Pahawk. I agree 110%.

Beak 13 years, 9 months ago

Did anyone notice ESPN's inablity to pronounce Quintrell's name properly. They kept saying Quantril. Probably not a wise mistake to make.

Chris Shaw 13 years, 9 months ago

soswalt: What the hell are you talking about? I wasn't the one dogging Sherron Collins. I was being sarcastic at the other guy and through he should apply for the vacant "Hickory" job so he can enforce the "5 Pass Rule". .

100 13 years, 9 months ago

Speaking of Quantrel, how can we handle MU's full court press successfully this time around?

jaybate 13 years, 9 months ago

100,

Handling a pressing team requires two things:

a) patience on offense to get the ball past half court, then a pass into the post (preferrably the low post) to collapse the defense before kicking it out to run a set play; and

b) counter pressing intermittently to take away how disadvantaged your team feels against a pressing team.

Regarding "a", presses force some turn overs, but the greater problem they cause is setting the offense in motion too far from the basket. Getting the ball down court is only half the battle. Forcing it inside immediately and then kicking out to run a play starting a normal distance from the hoop ices it.

Regarding "b", no team should ever be left feeling they cannot meet force with counter force. If Army A has an airforce, it is wrong to make Army B fight without an airforce. Army B must be allowed to wield the same weapons, at least occassionally, to take away the psychological advantage Army A holds. Same in basketball. Force MU to bring it up against pressure, because it forces them to think about something other than pressing.

And if KU cannot counter press, then it has to insert another kind of defensive edge that gives KU players the feeling having their own counter weapon. KU could play passing lane defense as they did against UNC. Or KU could throw a lot of switching defenses at them. Self has to give his team some kind of a counter weapon regardless.

Relying on breaking the press with a lot of adept passing and long passes for easy baskets is necessary, but it is not enough. The pressing team's spirit is never broken by easy baskets, because they are trained to expect some occassional breakdowns. What breaks a pressing team's spirit are teams that repeatedly get the ball down the court, make the pressing team play a lot of half court defense in addition to the labor of full court pressing, and then score; that hurts and drains their batteries.

And then if counter pressing is used intermittently just to keep the pressing team out of a comfortable, predictable rhythm, its game, set and match.

ajs10 13 years, 9 months ago

Theutus, do you hate Coach Self too? He is obviously happy with the way that Collins plays.

4jhawks4ku 13 years, 9 months ago

Theutus is a Misserree fan, you can tell. They love to bring out any fault in our players and then try to talk us into agreeing with them. I can smell out a misseree fan and he is definitely one. Go back across the border with your antler compadres . Maybe they'll listen to you..

LAJayhawk 13 years, 9 months ago

jaybate,

re: Collins

Great post.

And here are some facts to help Theutus amend his theory:

Sherron Collins: 39.2% from 3 point range

Tony Crocker: 37.8% Willie Warren: 38.7% Austin Johnson: 35.1% Cade Davis: 35.9% --All while Playing with the #1 draft pick and [probable] POY getting double and triple teamed inside

Across the Big 12, AJ Abrams: 39.6% LaceDarius Dunn: 38.9% Jacob Pullen: 33.9% Denis Clemente: 39.0% --Of course I could go on and on.

Sherron Collins A/T margin the last 3 games: 3.5 to 1. Very good, and yet that number could and should be a lot higher than that as Collins easily could have more than 13 assists the last 3 games if open shots weren't blown.

Sherron has 91 turnovers this year which is right even with the other 4 guys above him in assists per game. The difference is Collins also averages 18.3 points a game (and growing). The other 4 are 14, 14, 9, and 16 respectively.

And that's just offensively....

LAJayhawk 13 years, 9 months ago

As to breaking missou's press:

In my experience, and the success KU had in breaking it in Columbia, is aggressiveness. We pushed the ball up the floor and had easy layups that first half. It was that second half when we became tentative that we fell apart and had trouble with the pressure.

LAJayhawk 13 years, 9 months ago

Oh, and I forgot to 2nd jaybate's main stat:

KU 23 wins. 12 and 1 in conference. One more win and we tie our conference record from last year. jaybate was dead on: no way you can call Sherron a liability.

100 13 years, 9 months ago

Jaybate,

Nice exposition on press breaking theology. We'll call it Jaybate 101, intro to PressBreak.

As a player & coach over the years, it has seemed very apparent to me that a pressing team is always desperate. Yes, they might be able to slice you up for a quick outburst of points. That breaks the will of the other team.

However, it always is fools Gold. The only reason it works is because the other team isn't sufficiently trained to beat it. It takes hard work to learn how -- but it is simple. You do need athletes, smarts & ballhandlers to do it, but once you successsfully break another team's press 10 times in a row, they're drained.

Oftentimes (and it is so true with Missouri), they don't have much else to go to. A half court game to a group like this is like pulling teeeth. You, as coach, have taught them impatience by teaching them to press for 40 minutes, so what do you expect if someone wears your press down?

Impatient, tired basketball.

The solution really is simple. Quick passes & dribbling to spots before distributing. Take the sidelines if you have to -- that's where so many reaches and fouls occur.

I firmly believe in general this KU team needs a quick study on spacing and "going".

There's no waiting. You beat it and go.

But we have to get it past half court.

Break them. Break Missouri's spirit.

jaybate 13 years, 9 months ago

100,

Man, Coach, just reading your post makes me want to lace'em up! You've still got it!

jaybate 13 years, 9 months ago

LAJayhawk,

Interesting point on aggressiveness of attack being a tool in countering full court pressure.

If one can attack aggressively without coughing up a lot of fur basketballs (TOs), then I think you have an arrow to add to the quiver. It is much harder to press a team that is on the fly than it is to press a team that is deliberately moving it up the floor to avoid TOs. The question is: can you attack and not turn it over?

I'll have to deliberate on this awhile.

One thing for sure: the facts of the MU game fit your argument, if we both recall correctly.

BucknellJayhawk3 13 years, 9 months ago

I'm going to be flying out to catch Kansas in the first round of the NCAA tournament. Anyone know what the chances are of them being in Boise (West) or Kansas City (Midwest) versus the other two super regionals? What seed do they need to play in KC? I'm not sure I trust lunardi at this point. It seems like they are pretty set on going west because all the good teams on the east will end up in the east and south super regional, and they may not be a high enough seed to make the midwest if the analysts try to separate OU and KU to different regions.

100 13 years, 9 months ago

Jaybate & LA Jayhawk,

Nice Comments.

I'm not sure if youtube or a KU DVD exists on this game, but sometime look at all 40 minutes of that 1989 match vs Kentucky.

Every question you have will be answered. Surely there are bootlegs out there floating around.

The ONLY way to break the back of a pressing team is to slice them up. Whether you score quick points off it or not is your choice -- that's never the point. KU's strength is we can do both (score quick & take 35 ticks to score).

So we have that going for us -- my question continues to be, can we get it passed half court.

The ball has got to go to Sherron (on what is called a full turn sprint).

It has to. Sheron's passing vision isn't the best in the world right now during pressure, but five days of running this drill emphasizing spacing and listing a list of goals (a goal is not to simply get it passed half court), and we will look much better against MU.

This IS the story of the MU game. Is five days enough practice to become halfway decent at achieving press breaking goals.

It's obviously Self's decision (I highly doubt he's drilled a young team with this yet), but his press breaking goals (per possession) should be:

  1. No stupid passes. That's not to say "no turnovers". Those happen. It's just no loopy desperate passes.
  2. If you have speed, get the mother up the court. Slice that press.
  3. Keep your spacing -- triangle is a good way to think of it. The person with the ball should always have two people spread 20 feet away at opposite 60 degree angles.
  4. Use your sprinters. Keep moving!
  5. If you're sprinting, look for it!
  6. If you are tall, you better not be on the sideline. Always middle (unless you're drawing D away from Sherron). Catch, pivot, pass, sprint.
  7. MOST IMPORTANTLy (and this our biggest weakness this year). If we are trapped, use it to your advantage!!!!! (you have TWO guys closing in on you, don't crumple up and cause a tie-up!). Draw a foul, call a TO, or better yet, FIRE it at their legs! (you get 10 MORE seconds to get it passed half court if this happens!!!)

Lastly, again, Coach Self, PLEASE watch that tape of the Kentucky 1989 match...

THAT is how to beat a press!!!

RCJayhawk

actorman 13 years, 9 months ago

BJ, that's a strange handle. Are you really in Buck... (I can't spell out the whole word) and a Jayhawk fan, or are you a Misuse fan trying to stir us up?

As for your question, with the "pod system" (started a few years ago) it doesn't matter what regional KU ends up in. As long as they're one of the top four seeds in a regional, it is highly likely that they'll play in K.C. You can have more than one regional represented in one location for the first two rounds, then the teams go to their respective regionals for the Sweet 16.

100 13 years, 9 months ago

One more thing about press breaking: a few years back, we salivated when someone tried to trap us (think of Jacque in the mid 90's).

Things weren't that different. Yes, the full turn sprint was used by Coach Williams via Jacque, but another great thing was present too: picks.

We would use our big men so well back then to free the little guys. Even against a zone press. Set a pick from 25 feet away from basket, let Jacque sprint for the pass, catch, twist, turn, high step, wag the tongue, slobber on bryant Reeves shoelaces and go, looking for Pollard (who has rolled off the initial pick and might be getting another pick set for him this time, 15 feet from the Jayhawk goal which sets up Pollard against a 6'2" guy under the basket).

Picks. Picks. Picks. Set up your dribblers & use them!

Lastly, we used to be so good at forcing the pressing defenders to hang on our backs (it creates great passing angles and more explosion on catch if one chooses to fly).

It's really as simple as a box out move. Except your boxing for a pass.

It seems illogical, a guard bringing his backside to a Defender, boxing out for position. But if you do it, I can guarantee the 2nd defender who plans to trap wont be anywhere near you on the pass (otherwise Pollard is left wide open). Sure he'll race over after you catch it, but by that time you have possession and you're gone.

In summation:

THIS KU team CAN GET IT PASSED HALF COURT!!!!!!!

(if we don't MU will kill us next Sunday).

kvskubball 13 years, 9 months ago

100,

Your absolutely correct. Preparation and then RECOGNITION, then being aggressive are the tools to beat the press. If you look at Tyrel when OU first trapped last night, he hesitated which allowed the double team to clamp down on him. If he reacted instinctively and dribbled up court(to his right in the play) splitting them immediately he would then have the advantage. Great move by Capel to put in the press immediately upon Collins going out. The timing was superb, caught KU napping and without our best ballhandler. That was a homerun move. Desperation, sure, but still the right move at the right time is the way to have a chance to survive desperate times!

Collins lovers and haters, surely everyone realizes that reality usually lies somewhere between the extremes. Collins has made bone-head plays, and before the last 3 games had averaged 3.5 turnovers per game and his decision-making has definitely been questionable at times, on the other hand he definitely is a difference maker and one of the most confident (Cocky if you want to go that far, I see no problem with that) AND competent (most of the time) shooters we have had at KU in the over 40 years that I have been a fan.

For those of you who say that KU would not have won many games (someone said 10) without Collins, I strongly disagree. To say that belittles the coaching effort and ability of Self and the ability and effort of the other players, who are good players in their own right. Would we have been as good??? Definitely NOT. But I give Coach credit too, he and the other players on our team would have found a way to win all but about 3 or 4 of those we did win, IMO. I think it would have been much more of a struggle, especially at the very beginning of the year, but our schedule was set up to give us several easy games to allow the youngsters to get their bearings. Same with the Big XII schedule. We got a real break that it was back-loaded and not front-loaded like Texas A&M's.

I dislike it when people are extremists or alarmists. It demonstrates a fragile ego IMO. I think it should be ok to question the answers and theories of others. If Galileo had kept his mouth shut and not challenged the current authority, instead of stating what he knew to be reality, how many more centuries would it have taken for us to understand our world better and have a more accurate idea of our existence in the cosmos, rather than blindly accepting the dogmatic truthes that weren't based on reality, but upon what the powers-that-be wanted everyone to think???

kvskubball 13 years, 9 months ago

to wrap up...

It should be OK to understand that "I" am not always the center of the universe and as Einstein understood, we must question what we believe to be sure that our perception of reality approaches the reality that IS, rather than what we may think or see....as any worthwhile illusionist understands...and gets people to fall for all the time.

Could we try to be a little more agreeable when we disagree? Name calling is so kindergarten-ish, except when it relates to our preternatural arch-enemies in that dad-gum-blasted state that Norman loves and we so disagreeably and appropriately dislike? Something like...keep the hate and vitriol for the enemies, or something like that??!!

jaybate 13 years, 9 months ago

This is the living myth of KU basket coming alive on the screen.

Yesssssss!

People talking basketball.

How you actually play basketball.

The beauty of how to "do" it.

Coach, here would be a beautiful DVD set: a collection of games, each one defining how to do some aspect of the game in which it was done the right way and to great effect.

Make a set drawing exclusively on KU games through the years.

Rock chalk!

kvskubball 13 years, 9 months ago

Gosh, I just noticed that even I make mistakes. I started out my post with "Your" instead of the correct "You're". Oh, no now I'm going to get crucified for my grammatical error, gasp! Guess I'll just have to find some way to live with it....

blindrabbit 13 years, 9 months ago

Jayhawk86 A couple of comments regarding your comments about the game last night at Noble and the fan support and knowledge. Nothing is more embarrasing than going to a KU football game and watching the majority of KU students leaving just after halftime, regardless of the score; also many don't have a clue to what is really going on. That is probaly not the case at a OU football game; just differences in the programs and their successes in different sports. Maybe time will change this! Rockchalk!!

100 13 years, 9 months ago

Jaybate,

That's the best marketing idea I've heard in a long time.

Tough to beat Beak em Hawks, but you might have just done it.

Here's my vision of your product:

First DVD -- "how to beat a press." -- intro by Jaybate (like the Bracketology guy we thought we'd never see)

Strangely most of the highlights will not come from the game in 1989 where we scored 140 with Pritchard leading the charge...

No, no, no...

Most of the highlights will be from a game played March 1, 2009.

Send me the bill -- I want this DVD collection

Larry Smith 13 years, 9 months ago

Ok, About my earlier post.

Blindrabbit, I understand your point. But do you really think fans would be leaving if we were playing a team like OU or Texas in football and we were down by 6 with 2 minutes to go and we had the ball? Thats kind of what made me think of it. OU was down by seven with the ball and 2:30 left on the clock and people were leaving en mass.

Just to clarify the NBA/Mid major comment.

The piped in/ canned music gave it the NBA "who cares" feel at times. Other than when they hit a few threes, the only time there was any noise (cheering, not booing every call) was when the scoreboard told them to get loud. The "white out" slogan on the shirts was "Cheer like a Champion".

The constant barrage of stunts and gimmicks at every time out gave it the Mid Major feel. The best sign contest, the dance cam, the make 4 shots to win a car, the mascots on trampolines etc... All the stuff you pull out just to get people to come to the games

They had a country concert at halftime.

Has there been a game on the road where there hasn't been a "(insert color here ) out" when KU comes to town?

blindrabbit 13 years, 9 months ago

Jayhawk86: Enjoyed your return, but I sit in the student section at KU football games; many of those in that area would not be around to even know if your proposal in your first paragraph became a reality. Spring practice is just around the corner!!

Larry Smith 13 years, 9 months ago

Blindrabbit, I feel your pain. We have some pretty good seats for FB. (40 yd line, row 20) And I have the old people behind me complaining when we stand up. There were a few occasions last season, when the defense needed a stop and the crowd was up and getting loud and the gentleman behind us kept telling us to sit down because he couldn't see. I told him that we were there to support the Hawks and cheer, scream and yell our brains out. I'm sorry that I had to block his view, but he could stand if he really needed to see.

jaybate 13 years, 9 months ago

kvskubball,

Have to disagree on a couple levels here.

Rejection of extremes and the embrace of the center is only valid, if in fact, both positions truly are extreme and certain to produce outcomes worse than the center. Consider the following.

a) we should not torture any prisoners. b) we should torture all prisoners.

If we view these as the two extremes on the issue, we are obliged, based on your aversion to extremes, to take the center and say, "Let's torture some prisoners."

But of course the problem with torturing some prisoners--to avoid your unease with extremes--is that torture: a) produces unreliable information; b) it gets our soldiers tortured by opponents who decide that if we are going to torture then they will too; and c) torture, being a crime against humanity, criminalizes our civilian and military officials involved in it.

So: torturing some prisoners is not a sensible solution, even though it is in the middle and gives us some perverse satisfaction derived from a longing for sadistic revenge.

Bearing this in mind, let's get back to Sherron and your characterization of other POVs about him as constituting extremes of lovers and haters.

What you are basically claiming and assuming is that POVs other than yours are (without much empirical support on your part) irrational and unsubstantiated assertions of emotional devotion to or dislike of Sherron; this is a convenient, but unpersuasive, approach to sweeping away POVs that undermine your own rather unusual POV on this point; that Sherron does not really exist in any objectively verifiable reality on his own that anyone but you can discuss; that Sherron can only be gauged and understood in terms of the average of the opposites as you calculate it from them (and a black box calculation it is).

jaybate 13 years, 9 months ago

Frankly, first defining the various POVs as emotional, irrational opposites, and then subjectively averaging these contrived conceptual opposites to arrive at your own interpretation, seems highly abstract and arbitrary on your part, as well as seeming not very credible.

12-1 and 23-5 are facts, not concepts or contrivances.

Sherron Collins being the leader of the team is a fact. His own teammates and coach say it is so.

Sherron Collins being the leading scorer is a fact.

Sherron Collins handling, and creating and shooting the ball more than most other players on the team are facts.

Sherron making all the mistakes that you and others attribute to him are facts (at least I'm giving you all the benefit of the doubt that they are). :-)

Sherron Collins' combination of ability, leadership, time played and productivity cannot produce 12-1 and 23-5 on their own, but they can quantitatively and qualitatively be said probably to form the largest single player contribution to these W-L records.

Further, it can be inferred without much debate that without these contributions of his, there would have been no other individual player, with sufficient ability, experience and productivity to equal or exceed Sherron's actual contribution. There just is no credible evidence that another player on the roster could have done for the team what Sherron has done--netting both good and bad--that would have yielded an equal or superior W-L record. If there were one, we have to infer that Bill Self would have opted for emphasizing that player, instead of Sherron, or would have opted to build a team with more evenly distributed scoring, as he did last year. But he did not.

What happened was that Sherron, the leading scorer, major creator, crunch-time go-to-guy and acknowledged leader of the team succeeded in scoring and quarterbacking his team to a 12-1 and 23-5 record by combining his exceptional talents with those that the rest of his team brought to the mix.

So: the only sensible conclusion I can arrive at is that Sherron is not only not a liability to his team (as your conceptualized haters would probably say), but rather he is a very sizable net benefit to his team, warts and all. Further, he is not at all the mean of two conceptual extremes. He is instead a real player who has done an array of empirically verifiable things that indicate he is an exceptional player with some flaws, several of which he has significantly improved upon over the course of the season.

LAJayhawk 13 years, 9 months ago

jaybate,

As one who has criticized you on several occasions, I must say, you are on fire today. I must give credit when credit is due, and you deserve the credit. Excellent post. Eloquent and a very well supported argument. Nice work.

As to Sherron,

To add to the statistics I threw out in an earlier post, I would like to add the following:

As I pointed out, Sherron has an A/T ration the last 3 games of 3.5 to 1 (13 assists to 4 TOs). An excellent number. What I did not mention is the fact that Sherron has also shot 11 for 18 from the 3 point line for a remarkable 61.1%. He has also averaged 23.3 points per game in the last 3 (22, 22 and 26, respectively).

So to sum up, over the last few games a guy who is averaging nearly 5 assists is scoring at a clip of almost 24 points and killing people from behind the arc while limiting his turnovers to a remarkably low number and shutting people down defensively. Yes, Sherron has made and still makes mistakes, some which make me yell at my TV. But if you don't think he's playing top level basketball right now, then I just don't think you are watching very closely. Either that or your negative feelings are clouding your judgment. The numbers simply say it all, and it's hard to argue against that. Without him, we simply aren't as good of a team, as jaybate's articulately worded post clearly explains above.

And, to whom ever it was that made the argument that if Sherron had missed those shots, then we wouldn't be "slapping each other on the backs," well, I might point out that if Cade Davis misses his shots, we may well have won by 30. In basketball, you make shots to win. That's how the game is played.

If that dude from Davidson hits his 3, or Mario or Sherron miss their 3s, we wouldn't have been slapping each other on the back last April..........

kuerb 13 years, 9 months ago

I prefer to slap hands. A slap on the back is not cool, a pat is okay. Just sayin.

jaygun 13 years, 9 months ago

Sherron Collins is going to be the best NBA player to come out of KU since Pierce.

No question.

bigjay83 13 years, 9 months ago

I prefer to call kuerb a tool. Ne, a major tool. Just sayin.

kvskubball 13 years, 9 months ago

Jaybate,

Your reposte was energetic and diatribic as is your wont, but missed my point completely. COMPLETELY....

There were many people bashing Sherron (haters) and many people saying that Sherron could do no wrong(lovers). I was using the verancular of prior posters. You blew my statements totally out of context and tried to make my basketball statements into some globally-must-be-all truthes. My statements about Sheron said he wasn't and isn't all bad or all good, and gave a small sample of what would be fodder for both extreme positions, as well as being facts. I think your statements say something similar. I think, if not then edify me. Wouldn't it be a little wiser to ask what my intention was if it was unclear to you, rather than make an assumption, which IMO, this time made an a$$-out-of-u because you demeaned my position without first being sure you understood it. Eloquent crap is still crap. I didn't do any "averaging" - you did that. I merely stated neither extreme was valid and that the reality that is Sherron is somewhere in between, not an average. I wasn't making a mathematical conjecture or positing a theorem. I wasn't using a scalpel, but broad brushing it.

You rant on that no player on the squad would have made this year's team better (As if that was a position I had taken). Where in my comments did I say that there was such a player? I said that without him we would have been worse, but not as bad as some extremists posit that we would have been.

I'd like to know how you can interpret what I wrote as saying anything close to the fact that Sherron doesn't exist except as some mean of conceptual extremes? If you re-read my comments you might see that I said IMO, in my opinion, surely you understand the difference between saying something is fact or opinion. In the case of removing Sherron from our team and saying what would have happened, it must be conjecture and can not be fact unless he actually is removed, which thankfully he has not been removed.

Why don't you go back and re-read what I wrote and then read your reply and tell me whether your comments are appropriate. I usually appreciate your wit and the effort and intelligence you write into you posts, this particular reply of yours tries to pigeonhole me and my comments as somehow far below you.

kvskubball 13 years, 9 months ago

As to my comments about extremism. I stand by what I said, reality USUALLY lies somewhere BETWEEN extremes. I never ever said it was an average of such extremes, HUGE difference when saying between and an average or mean. Before trying to be clever, you might check your "facts", in this case reading what I said, and most true students understand that you learn more from asking questions than flaming someone for your interpretation of what they said, without first attempting to be sure you are swinging at the pitch that was actually thrown, not the one you think was thrown. As Yoda would say, how embarassing.

Needless to say I was a bit shocked by your tome on my statements, and disappointed by the solid-as-smoke conclusions you drew from my statements. As you can tell, I don't think your 'facts' relate very well to what I wrote.

jaybate 13 years, 9 months ago

First, I'm not attacking you, or impugning your manhood. I am merely outlining the problems with the logic of your argument and doing so with the antithesis of energy and diatribe. I am delineating the logical flaws in both your reliance on a model of reality lying between extremes, and on the failure of doing so to accurately explain the actual character of Sherron's game and its contribution to the team.

A lot of folks here would just resort to hurling ad homs at you, instead of hunkering down as I did and unsnagging the logical tangle.

No one ever likes having logical flaws in one's argument explored in a way that implies any criticism. It hurts a little, if perceived as valid, and it feels like an insult if perceived as errant logical analysis.

I apologize for not finding a more gentle and persuasive way to do it. I truly meant no cruelty or disrespect. I acknowledge I could easily be wrong, but I have gone over it again and found the same problems with your argument.

Again, the assertion that reality tends to lie inevitably between essentially metaphysical extremes is either specious, or so broad and vague as to master the obvious without contribution of insight, or both.

It is specious, if the extremes one posits are inaccurate. Reducing articulated POVs on Collins into contrived opposites of lovers and haters, as many including you have now done (in order to differentiate yourself from them), seems inaccurate. It is convenient but misleading shorthand for referring to what is in fact a broad spectrum of POVs pro, mixed and con on Collins' game. It oversimplifies and marginalizes these POVs, especially the ones at the hypothetical extremes that you believe to exist, but for which I noted no conclusive evidence presented for.

I contemplated arbitrarily conceptualizing Double Lovers of Collins and 1.5xHaters of Collins as new, asymmetrical extremes that were just as defensible as your implied symmetrical extremes, so as to thoroughly discombobulate the foundation of your analysis in one stroke, but I thought that disingenuous and flip. But I digress.

jaybate 13 years, 9 months ago

Positing that extremes exist and that groups of persons hold these more or less homogeneous and extreme POVs requires evidence you did not provide to be persuasive. But even if they were to exist, reducing them by assumption to lovers and haters engaged in irrational rants wide of the "reality" that you assume to exist on the spectrum where ever you decide (what I referred to as subjective averaging, but which you may reformulate as you wish) still leaves your hypothetical, essentially conceptual, extremes inaccurate, at least, based on what I have read of the various points of view here and in other threads on Collins.

In short, labelling groups of persons POVs as more or less homogeneous and essentially off the mark because they are at supposedly opposing poles of discourse doesn't score many points with me.

Reasoning from invalid premises of imaginary, or just vaguely defined, extremes results in essentially specious, metaphysical conclusions that can have nothing to do with objective reality. I am sorry that the logical underpinning of your comments leads me to this conclusion, but your reasoning, such as it was, left me only one other way to interpret your argument.

The other way is this: reality, lying between the extremes is simply mastery of the obvious that reveals nothing. To wit:

A person is born.

A person dies.

Between these extremes is the person's life.

Unlike your extremes about Sherron haters and lovers, the extremes of this example are at least factually accurate. But even so, they do not tell us much with specificity that we did not already know before formulizing it, do they? Put another way, we already know that a person's life lies between birth and death without laying out the extremes. It is, as they say, self evident. And it doesn't tell us much at all about the nature of the person's life, does it?

Now consider your argument.

Sherron haters think he is lousy.

Sherron lovers think he is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

Between these extremes lies the reality of Sherron's game.

jaybate 13 years, 9 months ago

First note that Sherron haters and lovers are not facts. They are arbitrary concepts formed to subdivide and contain a broad group of persons with a wide variety of POVs on Sherron's game. Some love him a little. Some love him a lot. Some love and hate him symetrically, some probably asymmetrically. Some just hate him a little. Some just hate him alot. But here's the rub. I don't love or hate Sherron and I've noted that most other persons do not talk about his game in terms of loving or hating it. Most other persons and myself in particular talk in specifics about things he actually does well and things he actually does not do well. So, again, it is kind of silly to reduce most persons to lovers and haters of Sherron and then place your would-be wise assessment between them.

Second, you leap from these arbitrary conceptual extremes to say that his actual game must lie some where between them, when there is no logical reason to think this is necessarily so. These are largely imaginary extremes that are posited. And to the extent they might exist they would be so vaguely defined as to be almost meaningless referents. On the other hand, Sherron's game is real. And the reality of his game could easily lie outside of the imaginary (or at least uselessly vague) concepts you have posited. Sherron lovers and Sherron haters are abstract constructs. Who knows where Sherron's real game lies in relation to Sherron lovers and Sherron haters? There is neither a causal, nor a probabilistic link between the conception of the metaphysical extremes here and the reality of Sherron's game.

Third, even if we accept that Sherron lovers and Sherron haters were valid; that is, they did constitute the actual extremes of the spectrum of thought about the reality of Sherron's game, does this imply anything at all specific about Sherron's actual game other than that it lies some where between these broad, ill-defined extremes? No. If these extremes were valid in this case, and they clearly are not, then we would still be no closer to arriving logically at where on the spectrum Sherron's game actually lies.

Getting exercised and indignant about someone examining the logic of one's position is usually an indication that the person holds an ideology about an issue.

You are quite entitled to hang on to your ideology about Sherron's game as long as you like and you are as well entitled to rationalizing it through specious argument. But I think it is unrealistic of you to expect a thoughtful person not to notice the ideology and specious rationalizing as such.

Why do I take the time to belabor this issue with you?

Not because I enjoy being told that a calm, analysis of your POV is indulging in energetic diatribe. :-)

jaybate 13 years, 9 months ago

Rather, I see a decent, well-meaning person who has more than sufficient mental resources to think clearly, even powerfully on issues, if only he/she would throw off a particular and peculiar analytical straight jacket of arbitrary, extremes-bounded inference that he/she has apparently adopted as a means of coping with (and reducing) analytical complexity. I occassionally see enough in another person to be willing to endure their brick bats to lend them a helping hand beyond this sort of thinking. Sometimes they take it in the spirit it was intended and sometimes they refuse it with emotion.

I also see this form of argument frequently resorted to in a wide variety of fora and it is usually employed exactly as you did: to sweep away other's positions to make room for one's own. I think it is not very nice to do this to other persons, who are just trying to clarify their thinking in a public forum, as you and I too are doing.

Note that I am not marginalizing your POV to make room for mine.

I am saying clearly that there is a flaw in your logic that is preventing your argument from being persuasive. Fix it, and I will be only too happy to embrace it. I am not trying to say here that my POV on Sherron's game is more accurate than yours (though in this case I suspect it probably is for all the reasons alluded to above). What I am saying is: give me a sound argument, shorn of this extremes nonsense and I will be happy to say, "Hey, that guy's pretty smart, I'll adopt his idea and give him credit, too." :-)

One can use the notion of limits constructively in reasoning. Your effort just was not one of those efforts.

Mostly I enjoy your posts, as I do so many other's here, whether I agree or not. And frankly, whether you believe it or not, I found the magnitude of the speciousness of your argument to be rather intellectually stimulating in its own right. So I responded calmly and and as logically as little me is capable. Perhaps I am in error about your analysis, but what you pointed out so far does not persuade me to that conclusion yet.

KUbsee69 13 years, 9 months ago

jaygun:

Sherron is a GREAT college guard. Arguably the best in the land this hear. However, even Coach Self said that there's not been many successful, long term careers in the NBA for guards under six feet tall. Don't get me wrong ... I hope Sherron makes it (and big bucks) in the NBA, but the odds are against him having significant success or impact because of his height. His best chance is to stay another year and maximize his draft stock.

kvskubball 13 years, 9 months ago

Jaybate:

Fact: Some people were ranting against Sherron (yes, there was a range of negativity) and some people were ranting for Sherron (with a range to their positive positions).

Fact: Some people were referring to those against Sheron as Sheron haters and some people were referring to those for Sherron as lovers.

Those were names given by others and I followed form to try to sway those in the extreme positions, which you seem to think don't exist in this or any other context of reality. I don't think there is anything specious or fallacious about those factual statements above.

You stretch what I say and seem to imply that I'm saying that everyone is at the extreme and that the extremes are somehow absolutes, and that I am somehow taking an extreme position myself. So let me say plainly...No, I don't think that everyone has extreme "opinions", that is what most people provide rather than facts, btw, with varying amounts of emotion thrown in, most people aren't Spock or Data and don't see everything as logically derived, as those two fictitious characters do. Are you seeking to join them in a totally logical world where emotion does not exist?

Neither do I write or think that all of the extreme positions are somehow equal or equally opposite). I think "SOME" people have stated extreme opinions with differing degrees of fervor, and I neither love nor hate Sherron's basketballs skills in any sense or possible connotation of those terms. Rather I admire some of things he is able to do and think that there are skills that he can improve.

Yes I think those extreme positions are both irrational and emotional and therefore don't make very much sense to me. Therefore I stated that I believe that his skills and basketball abilities are a combination of good (some very good skills) and bad ( and he seems to be correcting some of his bad skills), which would, I think logically place his skills between any possible extremes we wish to speculate on. If that is to simple for you, great. It didn't seem to be to some of the other posters...

Now let me analyze a few of your comments in the three plus pages that are spent saying that my statements are lacking in logic, when I was referring to what others said in the first place....

You start by saying "doing so with the antithesis of energy and diatribe." I would say that you are expending a considerable amount of energy...going on five pages of effort and you seem to choose to interpret diatribic in it's crassest form...you seem to think that I meant it to be interpreted at being a 'bitter and abusive speech or writing' rather than the simpler "a prolonged discourse" or the ironical or satirical inferences often given to the word, which I think also applies to your responses.

kvskubball 13 years, 9 months ago

and...

Before a person is conceived I don't think they have much relevance to reality. After a person dies, I don't know whether they have relevance or not, (I'm not God so I surely don't know all of the metaphysical possibilities) except as they have impacted this 'reality' that we live in, and leave something positive or negative or a combination of such behind. So I think that it is at least possible that my statements that there are some that "love" or "hate" (or insert any other words of similar import - since you possibly have an aversion to those particular words) Sherron have as much factual accuracy as your innocuous corollary.

You are attacking my logic, when I am pointing out that there are those that have stated what to me seem to be extreme positions (And comically enough you seem to say the same thing while directing the logical fallacies of such positions to me). Saying that they are my shortcoming. I keep trying to point out that they aren't my positions and you keep coming back and saying that I'm lacking in logic. Or that my saying that there are such positions isn't logical, and if my statements are logical you wish to dismiss them as being unworthy of being stated. HUH?!

Could you try dealing with what is here in my statements rather than whatever meaning you are trying to give my statements. You're a clever guy but you seem to be having too much fun misrepresenting my statements. Are you a legal eagle???

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