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My reaction to last week's Champions Bowl announcement, plus some realignment links from the weekend

I’m sure you’ve all seen it by now, but in case you haven’t, or even if you have, it’s worth mentioning again.

Late last week, after the Champions Bowl agreement between the SEC and the Big 12 became public, interim Big 12 commissioner Chuck Neinas, who is on his way out in a couple of weeks, was asked what he would do if he were the commissioner of the Big East or ACC right about now.

Without flinching, and with a the kind of confidence and cockiness that should make Big 12 fans everywhere feel very, very good about the league’s future, Neinas laughed and said, “Better get a good bowl.”

That’s if there’s time.

It’s obvious what the Big 12-SEC agreement has done to the landscape of college athletics. The Big Ten and Pac-12 have the Rose Bowl and the Big 12 and SEC now have the Champions Bowl. What the four of them have together is a stranglehold on college football. And that, we all know, gives those four conferences and the teams within them some serious power.

But what if this is just the beginning? Forget a Final Four for football or an all-encompassing playoff of any kind. What if these four leagues decide to play the way they want to play and create their own rules? Beyond the obvious that such a move could further fast-track the shift to super conferences, it also would create potential disaster for the NCAA as we know it.

The Champions Bowl is a nice concept. It ensures that even if — somehow — the Big 12 and SEC champions aren’t in the top four at the end of the season, we’ll have one heck of a bowl game to look forward to anyway.

So what if this concept trickles down a little. What if those leagues decide to pair up second- or third-place finishers in other bowls? Sound like a stretch? It shouldn’t. Forget the appeal of top-tier teams or quality match-ups. The driving force behind this move, as it is with most things these days, would be money. And if you’re the Big 12 and the SEC and you’re pairing your top teams in new bowls and doing all the work to market them and make it happen, guess what? You get to keep all the money. No sharing it with the NCAA or corporate sponsors. You keep it. And you divvy it up between the members of your now incredibly powerful leagues.

If such a move were to happen, the current postseason set up not only would lose out on top teams, big bucks and marketing gold mines, it also would have to restructure its existing bowl lineup, should the other bowl games even survive.

There’s been talk lately about raising the number of victories required for bowl eligibility from six to seven. If the SEC, Big 12, Big Ten and Pac-12 took this next step, the NCAA would have to lower the number to five just to fill all of the bowl slots. Yuck.

I’m not necessarily advocating this kind of hostile takeover. I like the NCAA Tournament, and I would love to see college football have something similar, be it an eight- or 16-team playoff someday. And I’m sure there are more than a few obstacles to this plan that would make it tough to pull off.

But this much we now know — don’t underestimate the Big 12. What looked to be a dinosaur on its death bed just one year ago is now in the ultimate position of power in college athletics’ most important sport.

I can’t help but wonder what’s next.

Now.....

Let’s move on to a quick look at the realignment talk that popped up over the weekend.

Before I hit you with these links, it should be noted that multiple Big 12 sources told me late last week that nothing was happening and that the Big 12 was not involved in any serious conversations about expansion. A couple of those same sources also said, however, that the league is always keeping its eyes and ears open to anything and everything that would make it a better conference.

I’ll have another blog later this week with some more from those sources.

Onto the links:

This report says Florida State to the Big 12 is “inevitable.”
http://dev.chuckoliver.net/2012/05/fsu-to-the-big-12-it-is-inevitable/

In case you missed this, add former FSU football coach Bobby Bowden to the list of people who believe the Seminoles should stay in the ACC:
http://saturdayblitz.com/2012/05/20/clemson-blogger-claims-big-12-move-agreed-timeline-rumors/

Here’s a blog that links to a couple of sites that say Clemson has reached a deal in principle to move to the Big 12, possibly with Florida State and Georgia Tech not far behind.
http://saturdayblitz.com/2012/05/20/clemson-blogger-claims-big-12-move-agreed-timeline-rumors/

And, finally, a list of the seven topics that will dominate discussions this week, complete with the following at No. 3:

--- What’s next for Notre Dame? Do the Irish have much choice but to re-examine their status relative to the members of the stronger-than-ever SEC, Big Ten and Pac-12? We probably should’ve included the officially resuscitated Big 12 in the previous sentence, too. Is ND an expansion target for the Big 12? One thing we can say for sure is Notre Dame isn’t as powerful as it once was. Until its profile within the next BCS structure is defined, it isn’t necessarily any better off than the programs in the suddenly vulnerable ACC (let alone those in the sitting-duck Big East).

Here’s the full list:
http://aol.sportingnews.com/ncaa-football/story/2012-05-20/notre-dame-big-12-fighting-irish-arizona-wildcats-rich-rodriguez-rose-bowl#ixzz1vRy5Yrlo

Stay tuned...

Comments

Hank Cross 2 years, 6 months ago

I believe that the B12 is no hurry to expand. Why cut the pie any thinner? Unless some very serious new money is coming with any new teams, it's difficult to justify expansion at this time. The B10 isn't going to take FSU Miami, same is likely true for the SEC. So it may make sense to wait until the smoke clears before adding any new teams.

As for ND, it's going to come down to whether the Irish want to keep their tier 3 rights and play KU, ISU, TT, and KState, or keep their B10 rivalries and give up their t3 rights. If the Irish will agree to an even revenue split, I could actually see ND joining the P12 before the B12. That's not a knock on the B12, it's just that ND's rivalries are elsewhere.

In any event, it's so much being on the inside looking out than worrying about being sent to the Mountain West.

jayhawkinmullen 2 years, 6 months ago

It is my understanding that if the Big 12 goes to 13 teams then they get the luxury of restructuring all contracts to include the new member schools and the audience they pull in.

bradh 2 years, 6 months ago

Even if there was less money coming in with more teams, which I don't believe would be the case, it seems to me that the Big 12 should nab the ACC teams if it can. It would ensure that the Big 12 was in the big four in football and limit the ACC's chances of doing something that would put us in the ACC's current position of being on the outside looking in. The reason the Big 12 has been vulnerable the last few years is because we were comfortable with the status quo and weren't proactive.

Steve Corder 2 years, 6 months ago

Texas & OU football give the conference its stability and is the anchor. When those two were making noise about leaving is when the conference was teetering on disolution. Duke & NC, as powerful as they are in basketball, cannot protect the ACC. I don't see the ACC threatening the B12 as long as Texas & OU remain solid.

That SEC Big12 Champions Game is a statement of how solid the B12 has become.

bradh 2 years, 6 months ago

We saw how committed they were last year, it took the Pac 10 saying no to keeping them in the Big 12. If the Pac 10 decides to accept OU and OSU to get to 14 the Big 12 is on the verge of dissolution again. However, if we pick up a Florida State and a Clemson we'd still be in decent shape and I imagine it would make it less likely that OU and OSU would leave. If you could pick up FSU, Clemson, Ga Tech, and Notre Dame it is highly unlikely they would even look.

Sam Constance 2 years, 6 months ago

I fail to understand why people continue to parrot this version of events as if it is gospel.

All we know is that OU and Texas were looking and didn't leave. Anything beyond that is wild speculation and really quite worthless at this point.

One alternate theory: OU/Texas flirted with the Pac 12 to see which teams in the Big 12 were committed to hammering out an acceptable deal and which ones would see it as an opportunity to jump ship. Some teams took that as a sign to get serious and work out a deal (i.e., everyone except A&M and Missouri), while others used to their own end, proving that they were only going to stick around as long as they needed to get a deal that behooved themselves.

Andy Hess 2 years, 6 months ago

More teams mean MORE money for us, not less money.

Eride 2 years, 6 months ago

My one big problem with your post is the usage of "NCAA." The NCAA already garners almost no revenue from high-level college football as a result of the NCAA vs. Board of Regents of University of Oklahoma decision in 1984. While the NCAA remains saddled with the unenviable task of trying to enforce rules on the sport, it financial gains little to nothing. You might want to do some research into exactly what the NCAA's role in college football is, or if you do have this knowledge, use the right terminology. There is a reason why the championship is the 'BCS' championship after all and not the 'NCAA' championship! Just because other bloggers name drop the NCAA to blame all of college athletics woes doesn't make it factual.

The NCAA isn't going to lose out on anything directly by this happening, but the entire corporate sponsored bowl structure will. Judging by the corruption exhibited by recent allegations against officials of the Fiesta bowl, this probably would be a good thing. More money going to the university athletic programs themselves and less money going to the corporate bowl system is a good thing in my opinion.

AustinHawkKC 2 years, 6 months ago

Completely agree. Reminded me of Sam Mellinger's Sunday column in the KC Star, when he loosely referred to "college sports" as the "NCAA". The NCAA is a bloated bureaucracy that does more harm than good. But here's the fact that should make every Jayhawk's blood boil.

The reason why basketball "doesn't matter" in realignment is because the NCAA milks all the money from the tournament. In fact, it virtually accounts for ALL of their annual revenue. As a result, tourney $$ pays for ALL of their overhead. Rules enforcement, admin, scholarships, running Div 2 & 3 events, you name it is all paid on the shoulders of men's basketball.

My ultimate realignment hope is that this leads to a secession from the NCAA, which will kill that beast and bring basketball $$ back to the basketball schools.

Ron Prichard 2 years, 6 months ago

I made this same argument last year. It's not that basketball is not a huge revenue generator; it's that all the revenue generated goes to the NCAA. In football, the NCAA can't get it's hands on the money, so the schools keep most of it (what the bowls don't take). I love the NCAA tourney, but I wish the schools kept some of the money to make basketball more of a factor in the national landscape of college sports/conferences.

Krohnutz 2 years, 6 months ago

My computer blocked a trojan from that second website you linked, not sure what is up. Anybody else have AVG issues with it?

Krohnutz 2 years, 6 months ago

Not sure, AVG has a history of that stuff. I use it to flag, but Malware to remove. Thank God AVG doesn't sell pregnancy tests.

LAJayhawk 2 years, 6 months ago

Ha!

FWIW, you (basically) never have a false positive in pregnancy tests. Whenever they are wrong, it is usually in saying negative when the female is actually pregnant. It's testing for a pregnancy hormone. If it's there, it's there. But if it doesn't show up on the test, one could still be pregnant. The hormones may just not be at levels the test can detect yet.

Yeah, that had nothing to do with anything in this blog, but for some reason I typed it.

Your welcome. :)

ParisHawk 2 years, 6 months ago

Off topic, my apologies, but here is a link to an anti-NCAA piece that criticizes KU: "Several student-athletes who wished to transfer to another academic institution were effectively held hostage by their college coaches. Kansas, Maryland, and most prominently St. Joseph's, enforced unethical rules that clearly violate the rights of student-athletes and the mission of college athletics."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/warren-k-zola/the-year-in-review-colleg_b_1530210.html

Anybody know what the reference is? If it's Berglund, my understanding was he just got held up a few days to "teach him a lesson" for not discussing the issue with Weis in person. Can anyone clarify?

bville_hawk 2 years, 6 months ago

IMHO the Huffington Post is not a creditable news source for anything sports.

oldalum 2 years, 6 months ago

I think you're right, and that's exactly what happened. But Berglund chose to go public with a press release (from his lawyer, I think) and make it sound a lot worse than it was. He got a little publicity from it, and made a lot of contacts with a lot of schools, but I haven't head anything about any of them making him an offer. Strange guy, and we're lucky to be rid of him.

april28 2 years, 6 months ago

Yeah, I think Bergulund's "outing" of KU blew up in his face. What team would want him now, except a desperate program looking for a bad attitude.

jayhawkinmullen 2 years, 6 months ago

The person we are lucky to be rid of is Turner Gill. Talk about a wolf in sheeps clothing.

LogicMan 2 years, 6 months ago

Latest from the board, from an SEC source no less, is that we're likely to go to 14 with FSU and Clemson in 2013, and Georgia Tech and ... Notre Dame after that. ND's current TV contract with NBC is the holdup for them. Everything to happen beginning in late June, starting with announcements by the first two of intentions to leave the ACC.

SEC likely to add VaTech and NC State in a couple of years.

Biggest holdup is UT not wanting to expand, Let your Longhorn friends know, today, that growing the conference will mean big bucks for UT (actually all of us, but...) and increase our odds against the SEC for national championships! KSU alums -- can you please have a nice talk with DeLoss Dodds?

Krohnutz 2 years, 6 months ago

I have also heard the first three things from multiple sources, but haven't heard that Notre Dame is even lurching forward.

I have not heard that UT is completely against expansion, only that they are far more selective in who is added. And I have heard nothing to make me believe Dodds is against adding Florida State (or Notre Dame for that matter).

It is for certain that UT has the power to be "selective" in who is added, but to be honest, right now I appreciate the conservative nature of adding teams. You would have to think that Dodds is just fine with his "brand" being on display in the state of Florida, and you damn sure know Mack Brown is.

By the way, Georgia Tech vs. Clemson, in terms of exposure... I would argue Georgia Tech would be a better "get" just based on their state population and their geographic location. How do you feel about choosing between those two? Who would you take?

LogicMan 2 years, 6 months ago

Both GT and CU would be great adds. Who first, assuming after FSU? That mainly depends on which goes public fastest with "We're leaving the ACC if our membership application to the Big 12 is approved."

oldalum 2 years, 6 months ago

I read in one of the many links discussing this topic, that Dodds has been "courting" ND for several years in the hope of getting them to come to the Big12.

Krohnutz 2 years, 6 months ago

I actually have a UT alum buddy that all we do is talk football. He was under the impression that Notre Dame and UT were in love three years ago, so it wouldn't shock me. To be honest, if any Big 12 school could convince Notre Dame to saddle up and ride, it would be 6 billion dollar UT.

Hawkword369 2 years, 6 months ago

Man great article, I get so sucked into this realignment talks its crazy haha. This is an article I found this morning that states "Moves Not Imminent". Give it a read, see what you think http://dallas.sbnation.com/texas-longhorns/2012/5/21/3033384/big-12-expansion-florida-state-notre-dame-clemson-moves-not-imminent

april28 2 years, 6 months ago

Just My Opinion.....the imminent playoff format plus the Champions Bowl tells me that we'll expand. A conference championship game will make up for some of the lost revenue in splitting the current deal and an earlier poster stated that, if we go to 14, we get to up the deal (or renegotiate).

I don't think that Bowlsby will be pushed around by Texas. His hiring was huge in terms of stabilizing the conference.

My guess...we're on our way to a 16-team league.

Hawkword369 2 years, 6 months ago

It is hard to think that the big 12 would pass up a deal with FSU, Clemson, possibly ND, and maybe GT or Louisville. Not to mention a few schools that will throw their names in the hat once they see that super conferences are coming faster than maybe they would like. Sounds like a no brainer haha. I would gladly hate all of them as any hated rival in our conference but only as competitors not as far as realignment goes haha Rock Chalk Jayhawk!

jgkojak 2 years, 6 months ago

If we get ND... MU is gonna feel really stupid.

Adding FSU, Clemson, Georgia Tech and ND strengthen the conference big-time- each team brings somethings to the game- FSU: Another powerhouse, No. 4 to TX/OK/ND Ga Tech: In Atlanta. And fantastic academics. Clemson: Football tradition and academics ND: 'nuff said

I know we tend to dismiss the academic side, but all 3 of these four rank in the top 4 of the current B12 for academic strength and FSU is tied w/KU- not one of these schools can be considered in any way diluting the B12 (like Louisville would).

EAST: ND, WVU, Clemson, Ga Tech, FSU, TCU, Baylor WEST: ISU, KU, KSU. OU. OSU, Tex, Ttch

BigMitchin_ 2 years, 6 months ago

Almost need to do North/South still.

North: KU, KSU, ISU, OK, OSU, WVU, ND South: TX, TT, TCU, GT, FSU, BU, CU

Baylor and TCU make no sense in the east when they would be in the middle of the west.

Vernon Riggs 2 years, 6 months ago

The reason why you may want to split the four Texas teams is to insure teams like FSU, Clemson, GA Tech, Notre Dame a yearly trip to Texas for recruiting.

bradh 2 years, 6 months ago

And to dilute the political power of the Texas schools. Amazing that the Big 8 saves their rears from a dissolving SWC and by leaving them together in the south gave them the power to run/ruin the Big 12.

Robert Brown 2 years, 6 months ago

At this time last year, the candidates for expansion into the Big 12 were very marginal. People were talking about Houston and Louisville and SMU and Cincinnati. None of those schools did anything to strengthen the profile of the conference. Adding them would have been viewed as a weak move, similar to all of the moves the Big East has made. While I don't like the addition of TCU, I understand why it was made. WV was probably the best available and willing team, and the Big 12 picked them up.

Now, everything has changed and there are expansion candidates who can strengthen the conference. Florida State is a brand and a large state university in a large state that opens up media markets. Clemson is a brand and has a sold out 85,000 seat stadium. It will be interesting to see if the new Big 12 leadership become aggressive in shaping the new landscape of college football or whether they will do what they did the last two year and watch while other conferences made aggressive moves at the Big 12's expense. A huge opportunity appears to be available. How will the new leadership respond.

Jim Jackson 2 years, 6 months ago

I think GA Tech would be a great addition. They have the Atlanta Market and are also an AAU member.

Robert Brown 2 years, 6 months ago

Ideally, pick up Ga Tech, FSU, Clemson and Maryland, who plays an annual game with West Virginia. That gets to 14, same as SEC and leaves a spot open in case Notre Dame can be convinced to join. You could further generate revenue by entering into another agree with SEC where each teams schedules a non-conference game with the other conference- create SEC-Big 12 challenge in football.

If this were to happen, the ACC would essentially done. The SEC have eyed NCState and Va Tech. The Big 10 might then be pressured to go to 16 and Va, UNC, Duke and maybe Rutgers would fit in there as all are AAU schools that open up new markets.

That leaves Miami, BC, Wake, Pitt, and Syracuse to probably merge with some of the stronger remaining Big East schools to form a second tier conference.

Krohnutz 2 years, 6 months ago

Yeah I had to look that up, because I didn't think they were. 2010 they became a member. So let me ask you, if a technical school like Georgia Tech can get their ass around to getting their membership, why can't Kansas State?

Get your damn membership, Kansas State.

Brian Skelly 2 years, 6 months ago

It certainly appears by the time CF season kicks off this year, there is likely to be a lot of movement conference-wise. And nice to see it appears that will benefit the Big 12 and KU.

The only one it 'feels' like a sure thing at this point is FSU. Clemson/Miami/GTech next? Not enough smoke yet for me to think the fire is blazing, but obviously an FSU move would be a domino. And hard to think FSU would make a move if they werent bring a dance partner -- I wouldnt be surprised if the Big 12 didnt almost insist on that.

The pipe dream one continues to be Notre Dame. I still dont think they join a conference, but its clear that N.D.'s place at Thanksgiving might be getting move to the kid's table. I DONT think its going to go down that way -- I think ND still has pull to stay independent. Obviously we'll see what happens.

The part that makes the Notre Dame talk intriguing is the simple fact that for ND to join one of the other conferences (pac12/big 10/ACC) they'd either have to relent on the Tier 3 rights (and $$$) or the conference they'd be going into would. Think about that for a minute. If ND goes to the Big 10 (or looks there first), does Delany tell them they cant do their own thing TVwise on Tier 3? Do they give them a bigger cut of the Big10 network than the other schools get? Hows that going to go over with the other schools -- most notably Ohio State and Michigan (never mind Wisconson, Nebraska, and on and on). Do they relent by letting them do Tier 3 and no one else? Good luck with that? The parties would likely have to relent in some way it seems that either party would want to accede on. The Big 12 is the only conference who that would not be an issue. Not to mention a counter weight to UT wouldnt be the worst thing in the world... would it?

As a keep posting... get your popcorn... its about to get good.

jgkojak 2 years, 6 months ago

I keep coming back to how we were worried we'd be stuck in the Big East or one of those left out... and now we are firmly in the middle of one of the four power conferences with decent travel (even with the east additions) and some good rivals (KSU, ISU, OSU, OU) close to home.

If I were betting, here is where I'd lay down for expansion: B12: 90% chance: FSU, Clemson 60% chance: Ga Tech 40% chance: Pittsburg, Louisville 25% chance: Notre Dame 5%: Maryland, Va Tech, NC State, Rutgers

B10: 75%: Virginia, Maryland 60%: UNC 25%: Duke 5%: Notre Dame, Rutgers

SEC: 90%: Va Tech, NC State 5%: FSU, Ga Tech

Robert Brown 2 years, 6 months ago

Ga Tech, an AAU school, would certainly be on the Big 10's radar if they wanted to expand. Any school, given a choice, would pick the Big 10 over the Big 12.

Given the weakened state of the ACC, it would appear that ND, if forced to join a conference would have to pick between the Big 10 and Big 12. At the end of the day, I would think if ND joined a conference, they would join the Big 10, meaning the Big 10 would have to add at least one more team for balance.

jgkojak 2 years, 6 months ago

The Big 10 will NEVER share Third Tier rights, so ND would have to swallow whatever Northwestern gets- which financially they will not do.

They'll go where they can make a special deal (see Texas) for their own network-- THAT is the B12.

Yes, Ga Tech as an AAU would be on the radar of the B10- but Ga Tech has longtime ties to Clemson and FSU. And the B10 has bigger fish to fry - 13 and 14 will be Virginia and Maryland or UNC 15 and 16 will be UNC and maybe Duke (if they're a package deal)

I'd say Ga Tech has as much shot at the B10 as Kansas - which is some-- I wouldn't be surprised if, when school #16 comes down, KS isn't in the mix for an offer.

Robert Brown 2 years, 6 months ago

KU would have to agree to give up its media rights for six years if it jumped conferences so I think that effectively locks them out of the Big 10. I had hoped that they would end up there, but the Big 12 now looks stable, so I am OK with a stronger Big 12.

Notre Dame's contract with NBC is up in two years. They currently get about $15M per year with NBC. That may essentially be the 1st and 2nd tier rights. Every other major conference school now gets at least that and more. If money talks, the Big 10 is probably in the best position to offer the most money.

oldalum 2 years, 6 months ago

Didn't I read that they are planning to up that 6 years for media rights and go to 13?

Randy Bombardier 2 years, 6 months ago

Of course Notre Dame is the big question mark. I think it is in their interest to stay independent, adopt a cupcake schedule and win themselves to getting into the championship. If they did the same as Boise State and TCU did they would not get overlooked, why, because their Notre Dame. Not fair, but I think they know it would work. The last thing they need to do is continue to lose four and five games (or more) each year. They need to at least create the illusion of success.

Benjamin Piehler 2 years, 6 months ago

Almost a year ago the ACC was lookin like it might poach the Big XII...

The tables are turned! The shoe is on the other foot!

jgkojak 2 years, 6 months ago

The future of the ACC FSU->B12 Clemson->B12 Ga Tech->B12 MD->B10 VA->B10 UNC->B10 Duke->B10 or BEast/ACC merge NC State ->SEC Va Tech -> SEC Wak Forest->BEast/ACC Miami->BEast/ACC Boston Coll->BEast/ACC Syracuse->BEast/ACC Pitt->possible B12 if B12 goes to 16

LogicMan 2 years, 6 months ago

Plausible. I'd prefer we take MD, NC, or UofL instead of Pitt though. Or all three of the former to go to 16, if ND won't join the Final Four National Championship Club.

Don't forget history -- the B1G, via their inaction on MU, seems unwilling to expand into any of the former slave states (MD and NC in play). And the opposite for the SEC, to a lessor degree (already in KY and FL; NC and VA would be ok).

Robert Brown 2 years, 6 months ago

The slave state argument is tired and irrelevant. The Big 10 had serious discussions with Texas during the first round of conference realignment and before the formation of the Longhorn Network.

LogicMan 2 years, 6 months ago

And they didn't take them when they could have.

jhawkrulz 2 years, 6 months ago

Does Duke take our position now. Good enough for basketball, but actually could be left in the cold because of lack of the football program? Will anyone want Duke?

If given a choice will UNC help Duke or NCState be the one helped into a conference?

Benjamin Piehler 2 years, 6 months ago

Ive already heard at least one Duke fan hoping they get an invite from the B1G (yeah, right.) So, perhaps they are us now. Nice to be off the hotseat.

DocPossum 2 years, 6 months ago

What's to keep ACC/Big East and ND from snagging a third bowl, then let the rest fight it out for places in a fourth bowl game. You then would have your four playoff games winners playing winners for the eventual National championship.

Hank Cross 2 years, 6 months ago

Here's an interesting piece that addresses a question that I've wondered about - The possibility of conferences trading teams to get to 4 16-team superconferences. It may be a solution to far-flung conferences and that fact that the P12 really doesn't have any place to expand.

http://www.eerinsider.com/2012-articles/may/math-pods-and-college-football-why-super-conferences-are-inevitable.html

The blogger posits that KU and KSU may get shuffled to the P12. It would be an intriguing concept to have KU in a mid-western pod in the P12.

bville_hawk 2 years, 6 months ago

KU in the P12 would make mangino0holtz happy. Not sure about anyone else...

Benjamin Piehler 2 years, 6 months ago

I understand why the SEC would want VaTech, but NC State sounds an underwhelming addition.

Are UNC and NC State conjoined twins a la KU/KSU?

Robert Brown 2 years, 6 months ago

I don't think so. The belief is that UNC is probably not interested in joining a football conference. Virginia and North Carolina are two large growing states that do not have an SEC school. Both Va Tech and NC State have large followings and are not viewed as part of the basketable elite like UNC and Duke. I would think Va Tech is the top of the SEC expansion list and NC-State probably next.

John Fitzgerald 2 years, 6 months ago

I posted this in a previous article, but it's still what I would like to happen "if" the Big 12 expanded to a 16 team conference. And, I made a few changes with all the talk going on about who would and wouldn't come to the Big 12. It would turn the Big 12 into the new power conference. And I agree, it would thin out the money the Big 12 has to divvy out, but there are a lot of plus sides to having a 16 team conference as well. Again, I don't think this would happen, but I think it would be cool if it did, and definitely possible with all the realignment talk.

Big MACC (Big Midwest Atlantic Coast Conference) (Big 12 changes name to Big MACC to better fit their new teams)

North Kansas Kansas St Iowa St Notre Dame

South Texas Oklahoma Oklahoma St Texas Tech

East Louisiville Virginia Tech West Virginia Clemson

South East Florida St Georgia Tech Baylor TCU

Let me know what you guys think. May seem obsured but you never know at this point in the game! Either way I think the Big 12 sits pretty comfortable.

kubball99 2 years, 6 months ago

I like the teams except I think having Baylor and TCU in the South East doesn't work well.

Here's how I'd have it:

North - Kansas, Kansas State, Oklahoma, and Oklahoma St South - Texas, Texas Tech, Baylor, and TCU East - West Virginia, Louisville, Notre Dame, and Iowa State (almost all Big East) South East - Florida State, Georgia Tech, Clemson, and Virginia Tech (all ACC)

Geographically it works a little better for all the schools (except maybe Iowa State) and you are able to keep some of the old conferences together (somewhat).

You could do the Big Eight (North and South, but exchange TCU and Iowa State) and the "New Big Eight (East and South East).

John Fitzgerald 2 years, 6 months ago

I like that too ... I'm just hesitant to put all texas teams in one division. I'm sure it wouldn't matter if they were. Like you said, geographically it makes more sense. I do really like the Big Eight and New Big Eight idea better though. I think that could really work.

Travis Clementsmith 2 years, 6 months ago

I think V Tech, along with NC St, will be SEC bound. Pitt has a traditional series with Pitt, and I wouldn't be surprised if ND wants them included as a condition for membership. So, move Louisville to the SE to replace V Tech and the Pitt into ND's pod, and I think you have it.

Further, if we go to a 16 team pos format, more than likely, the pods will rotate to ensure everyone has a chance to play each other within a typical four yraer scholarship career. So, name the "North" the "Northwest", the "South" the "Southwest" and the "East" the "Northeast". This makes it easier to name your divisions each year when it rotates:

Year 1: North Division (NW-NE), South Division (SW-SE) Year 2: West Division (NW-SW), East Division (NE-SE) Year 3: Criss Division (NW-SE), Cross Division (NE-SW)

kubball99 2 years, 6 months ago

Plus if you had a four team B12 championship (for football), you could potentially have the four winners from each conference play. You could end up with Texas, Oklahoma, Notre Dame/WVU, and FSU/VT. Pretty strong football conference and pretty good basketball conference as well.

John Fitzgerald 2 years, 6 months ago

Exactly ... That's the important thing is to keep both football and basketball in mind. It'll be interesting the next few months to see what unfolds and who ends up where. I have a gut feeling though the ACC will offer florida st something pretty tempting. The Big 12 was in the same position a few years back and we made it out even stronger than before. If Florida St leaves for the Big 12, I think that will start a trend and we have a good chance of being a 16 team conference. That's if that's what the Big 12 wants. Either way very exciting and interesting to watch!

LogicMan 2 years, 6 months ago

"keep both football and basketball in mind."

Nope, this is driven completely by football. As the ACC is learning the hard way:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1191715-acc-football-2012-it-is-time-to-admit-that-conference-has-backed-wrong-horse

KU needs to continue to rebuild its football program, while maintaining its excellent basketball tradition.

John Fitzgerald 2 years, 6 months ago

If you want to be a conference that lasts you need to have both football and basketball. Yes, football is what started this conference changing nonsense, and is ultimately the force behind it, but only concentrating on football is ignorant. I agree that football caused it but I don't agree that you should only put attention on football alone. You have to be an all around conference in order to make money. It's about being strong on both sides. If you were a football coach or basketball coach would you teach your team only offense? Or would you teach them to be efficient in both? We're successful in basketball because our coach recruits great offensive players and teaches them how to be great defenders. You cannot be one sided, so don't think for one second that this has nothing to do with basketball. Be logical LogicMan. ;)

jhawkrulz 2 years, 6 months ago

You have the theory right, but I think that kubball99 has some important points. There will be 4 powerhouse football teams in the conference, that will almost want the guarantee of being on top.

ND,FSU,UT, and OU.

These four will anchor the pods.

Remember that for recruiting people will want to play the Texas schools, so however they do scheduling you will always have to play some texas schools every year (everyone will want that).

It's still a long way away, but I like the chatter this time around because KU looks good no matter which way it goes.

LogicMan 2 years, 6 months ago

Latest from the tweets, blogs, and boards is that ND will join in all non-FB sports (that it can) ASAP, and then FB will move over fully to the Big 12 after the NBC contract expires. So a phase-in period over a handful of years is the plan. UT is doing the heavy lifting with ND -- props to the Longhorns!

UofL being mentioned more as #14, with some saying they already have a bid in hand, as do FSU and Clemson at #11 and #12.

Some saying we're going to 16 ASAP!

SEC is interested in UNC, but UNC isn't currently interested in them. NCState continues to be the SEC's best shot in that state.

Ramblin' Wrecks from Georgia Tech: Get UMd (or UNC) to come with you as #15 and #16 in the new Big 12+4 Final Four National Championship power conference!

LogicMan 2 years, 6 months ago

As we experienced firsthand via A&M and MU last year, most of this stuff goes on in formerly smoke-filled rooms, out of the public's view. Starr's comments from Baylor last year on "tortious interference" have only driven these negotiations deeper underground. But like in politics, there's trial-balloons (demands/replies) made in the public eye, via "sources", that are helping to resolve issues before each institution takes the big plunge.

But there are some comments on the old-school record, you too just need to find them. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/ncaa/ is one place to start your search.

"All's fair in love and war." Make no mistake, this realignment process is covered by this old saying. It would be unwise to think that the ACC would have gone down without a fight. It's largely over with the announcement of the SEC/Big 12 deal, and they need to work their way through the five stages of grief. Denial comes first, if I remember correctly.

Robert Brown 2 years, 6 months ago

You have described a dream scenario with the exception of adding Louisville- it is better to get Ga Tech or Maryland. I don't think anything is close to being set. You can find a blog or a tweet to support any position you want. Everyone knows someone who knows someone who is an insider who insists that FSU is leaving; FSU is staying, etc. etc.

There are people on this board who insist that KU had an offer to join the Pac-12 two years ago and turmed it down even after UT rejected the move. Remember following the plane!! No credible source (like Matt) has ever confirmed that.

LogicMan 2 years, 6 months ago

Yes, anything can happen, including nothing.

On KU/PAC, here's the first Google hit:

http://blogs.mercurynews.com/collegesports/2010/06/13/pac-10-expansion-could-it-be-kansas-and-other-recent-developments/

Yes, the PAC commish did file a flight plan to Lawrence from Texas during his recruiting jaunt, but never made the flight. I remember watching the FAA's flight tracker live on that one.

Robert Brown 2 years, 6 months ago

I do too and I remember reading that article. My point is there are people here who insist that KU has an invitation in hand from the Pac-12 and turned it down. They insist that even after UT and OU backed out that KU could have taken Utah's spot. I have not heard anyone confirm that that was the case.

Brian Skelly 2 years, 6 months ago

I loved the pods in my hypothetical "Big 16" from last year. Now the goal posts are moving, but the idea is the same...

Football... play everyone in your 'pod' every year (likely pods based on geography). Play the teams that finshed in the same 'place' as you in the other 3 pods. (ie - finish last? play 3 of the other 'last' place teams the next year). Thats 6 games. Play two more games based on the duration since you've played last. While this concept could jumble things, and certainly wouldnt be 'hard' it would assure that you dont go eons without playing everyone. My guess is they'd have it a pre-set pairing however that would simply rotate.

Hoops... play everyone one in your pod home and home (6). Play everyone else once and alternate years home and home (or even assign the h&h by pods). 18 games.

Clearly a huge issue here is the cost of transportation for schools over great distances. Especially with the non-revenue sports... What if the schools (or pods) 'hosted' one of the other pods for a large group of games (non-revenue). Festival/Tournament/whatever. You could probably even charge a little bit of $$$ if you hosted it correctly. Obviously, this would work with everything... it might not work at all. But if things are going to get this crazy, its going to take some more progressive thinking about how some of these things go down. Crazy Crazy.

Here comes the Noles !!!

LogicMan 2 years, 6 months ago

They are hotly debating conference realignment and the national championship process right now on AM 810. At the moment they are mostly saying better get in one of the Final Four conferences fast!

Krohnutz 2 years, 6 months ago

To address the idea that Dodds is against adding more teams, that is more creative journalism. Here is an article that has his exact quotes:

http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/blog/brett-mcmurphy/19124774/texas-ad-not-for-expanding-but-admits-courting-notre-dame

Note that his words used most often reflect "need" to expand, of which he says the Big 12 does not need to expand. He certainly puts forth that he likes ten teams for blah blah reasons, but nowhere does he adamantly oppose the idea of expanding.

His rhetoric is dual purpose, it shows that the Big 12 is being selective, and it is a bargaining chip in that we don't "need" more teams, but if you want to come on board, make a sales pitch.

I am not a UT guy, but Dodds is being shrewd and it is a good position to maintain.

LogicMan 2 years, 6 months ago

"but Dodds is being shrewd"

Agreed. UT didn't get to become "UT" by mistake. And to have a KSU alum do it reflects well upon our in-state rival. Hopefully our KSU-born AD is doing the same for KU! So far, so good.

Now, KU fans, repeat after me ... "Football is great. Football shall ensure that KU gets even better. Go KU Football!"

Robert Brown 2 years, 6 months ago

Isn't it ironic that UT was vilified the last two years for attempting to destroy the conference and not it is because of UT that conference is more stable and viewed as one of the four power brokers in college football.

I have heard Dodd's quoted that he likes having KU in the same conference because of it's academics (compared to the rest of the conference, not the Big 10 or ACC) and the strength of the basketball program. KU keeps the conference in the spotlight during the year. UT basketball has developed a nice rivalry with KU which has become a game of national prominance.

For good of for bad, I think KU has made a decision to align itself with UT. This of how KU agreed to have the KU-UT game broadcast last year on the LHN.

LogicMan 2 years, 6 months ago

DeLoss has gone public on contacting ND:

http://tracking.si.com/2012/05/22/deloss-dodds-courting-notre-dame/?sct=cf_t2_a8

just like the tweets, blogs, and boards have been saying.

Now if we can sign 'em up, the party can get started.

LogicMan 2 years, 6 months ago

It may be coming to a boil .. Clemson's Board is to meet tomorrow to "get on the same page" about conference rumors. Very interesting, indeed, since they have shown the most discipline so far of all mentioned. If any on the CU Tigers' Board doubt it, yes we do want y'all in the new Big 12+ Final Four National Champions Power Conference!

UT is fine with expansion if the teams are of highest quality (FSU, Clemson, GaTech, VaTech, ND appear to pass the test), and 12.5, 14, and 16 are on the table. Unfortunately for UofL, they don't currently meet UT's test. The Cards should ask DeLoss, nicely and today, what are their three weakest things (short of recent FB record), and quickly address them. I hope they have alumni and friends with deep pockets, because now's the time, or never.

whitechocolate 2 years, 6 months ago

So rather than who's in, I think we need a percentage wheel of BCS teams most scared of being left out in the cold...

Duke 2% Miami 7% Louisville 10% UConn 11% Boise State 13% Cincinnati 15% Wake Forest 18% USF 24%

Krohnutz 2 years, 6 months ago

You could really just lump in the entire Big East for one mega part of the wheel, because those guys are totally hosed.

whitechocolate 2 years, 6 months ago

Agreed. I also was thinking the B1G might suck up Pitt, but they don't need the region and the Panthers might be scrambling as well with Syracuse. The fans on Pitt boards seem to really dislike the idea of joining the Big 12, even though WV wants the rivalry again.

Here's one guy who's advocating for Pitt to the Big 12.

http://www.pittscriptblog.com/2012-articles/may/why-pitt-should-pull-a-qtcuq-and-join-the-big-xii.html

Luke Kay 2 years, 6 months ago

So, something I have been curious about since we finally fired Beebe and brought in Chuck Neinas as the interim. Does Neinas not want the job? Does the Big12 not want him? IMO he has done an awesome job getting us back on track, and did great with the Big8. (it feels weird and refreshing to write Big8 for some reason) sorry I digress. But seriously, why the search for a commisioner when we have a great one already going?

LogicMan 2 years, 6 months ago

You'd have to ask him, but I think he really was comfortable in a working (consulting) retirement when we pulled him out of it. Yes, he's a trooper and has done a great job. It would be nice to formally change his title to Commissioner before he steps down (and to hand him a nice bonus).

The Big 12 has already hired our new head guy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Bowlsby

Luke Kay 2 years, 6 months ago

I agree, he has done wonders for a conference almost in purgatory... nobody knew what we were going to do or if we would even make it. We appear to be on the brink of being officialy stable which is a nice feeling. I did know that we hired the Stanford AD to be the new commisioner. Nobody seems to really know though why Neinas was never given or offered the job. He has been great. And will be missed, he has really paved the way for the new commisioner to look like a genius in the future.

Chris1955 2 years, 6 months ago

I think I read on this site sometime in the past that Chuck was maybe 70+ years old and took this job as an interim position. I think he may have bailed us out of the Bevo and Butthead situation we found ourselves in with Dan Beebe(sp?).

Krohnutz 2 years, 6 months ago

According to Neinas, he has never desired the position full time. It just isn't what he wants to do. At heart, Neinas is an independent business man with a LOT of connections. He runs his own sports service that you can check out here:

http://www.neinassports.com/

He took this job to get the Big 12 stable again (that appears to have come to pass) and get it pointed in the right direction. I believe he sees that job as done, and I am inclined to agree with him.

Now, with that said, I think age is also a factor at play here (he is almost 80). I believe he took this job because he wants to see the Big 12 survive. He has loyalty to the original members of the Big 8 (Mizzou probably burned that bridge). And to be honest with you, successfully overseeing the rebuilding of the shattered remnants of the Big 12 looks DAMN fine on a resume or business profile. There is only one person in America that can say that.

I certainly hope that the Big 12 continues to keep him in the picture though, he has ideas and the connections to follow through, as evidenced by his performance this past year.

bradh 2 years, 6 months ago

It's interesting that CBS is telling the SEC that MU and AtM don't add value to the conference tv wise. I've seen several threads on SEC boards that indicate they aren't too happy with their new additions. Almost feel sorry for them, ha.

LogicMan 2 years, 6 months ago

In a sane world we'd work a logical deal -- we'd take back MU and A&M, as long as we got Arkansas too. Then the SEC would take all the ACC teams they could benefit from, and maintain their southeast footprint. Not going to happen, though.

It was very interesting to hear on AM 610 or 810 today that most are in agreement that MU left for the wrong reason ("Big 12 breaking up!"), and they would have been better off staying. Just a few diehards disagree, and have changed their story to "UT is the devil incarnate" or something equally rational. The SEC's commish's statement that the SEC needs to cozy up to UT destroyed their new argument, though.

Krohnutz 2 years, 6 months ago

I no longer live close enough to pick up 810 or 610, and rarely am at my computer during the shows I used to dig.

I'm curious, is it the MU fans saying they wish they had stayed? Or is it just the radio announcers?

Look, no team burned their bridges more than the MU fanbase.

Krohnutz 2 years, 6 months ago

Speaking of Mizzou:

You have to think it is one huge kick in the cajones that they leave the conference citing "instability" as a primary factor, and before the move even becomes official, their new conference helps their old conference regain stability.

I used to have trouble explaining the proper defintion of true irony. I believe that would qualify.

Brian Skelly 2 years, 6 months ago

As a Jayhawk here in St. Louis I can tell you it's not the same as being one in K.C. , but if there's one thing that to me has held true over the years is that more than any of our conference foes none has held a more irrationally inflated sense of themselves than Mizzou fans.

It's staggering. And to me, the move to the SEC simply fed that. It still doesnt make any sense and odds are it'll never be like it was in the Big 12. In fairness, THAT Big 12 is gone (CU, Neb, A&M). My personal favorite BS throw away line was the "instability" -- a very factual statement -- except for the fact that Mizzou was one of the primary reasons for it. Most Mizzou fans act the school was simply an innocent by standard in one of Bevo's evil little games. Go on Tiger Board NOW and they still view it that way as if they were simply lucky enough to get off the sinking ship.

Understand too, im fine that they left. Im just sick and #$@%^#@$^ tired of hearing about it from them. They've quieted down a bit, not so surprisingly now that it appears the Big 12 not only is stabilizing but looks to be on the upswing. Im sure thats not coincidence.

LogicMan 2 years, 6 months ago

Clemson Board of Trustees: We are willing to listen. Hear that, Big 12? Hopefully you have someone meeting with them soon? And with FSU and GaTech?

VaTech says it's not interested, and Miami is possibly in deep NCAA trouble. ND isn't coming, at least anytime soon. Louisville or Maryland as #14? Get 'er done!

GSlapshot 2 years, 6 months ago

The Big 8 trademark is licensed by the Big 12. They also own the Big 14 & Big 16 trademarks also. So if we go past 12 we can rename our conference

LogicMan 2 years, 5 months ago

Big 12 meeting this week!

A supposed insider says FSU and Clemson ... :-) https://twitter.com/#!/gswaim

GaTech, UMd, ND, etc., don't get left out of the party! Knock loudly and publicly on our door, today!

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