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Realignment Today: Report indicates 'The Big 12's done' and more talk about OU to the Pac-12

6:38 p.m. Update:

Just realized that the last update is an absolute mess. Welcome to my world.

Let's try to simplify it with an update on my conference realignment probability wheel.

  1. Big 12 30%
  2. Big East 30%
  3. ACC 15%
  4. Pac-12 13%
  5. Big Ten 7%
  6. Other 5%

Reports out there are indicating that KU is becoming a hot commodity on the west coast and with the ACC... At this point in time — that's a key phrase — it's my belief that KU would go east before it goes west.

Stay tuned...

6:16 p.m. Update:

Chip Brown of Orangebloods.com just Tweeted that Texas to the ACC is picking up steam. He has a story on his site but it's premium content so I'm guessing most of you won't be able to see it.

This rumor has been floating under the outlandish and wild rumors for quite some time now and I've heard talk that it's more than likely that it could include KU... at some point.

Under that scenario, Texas is basically calling OU's bluff and making its own way.

That would mean OU would have no choice but to bolt for the Pac-12 — and take OSU with them — leaving Kansas, Kansas State, Iowa State, Baylor, Texas Tech and Missouri to fend for themselves.

Under that scenario there's always the well-documented fallback plan of KU, KSU and MU to the Big East. That could even include Baylor. Not bad. Not great. Especially if you're not a believer in the Big East's long-term future.

So, if UT goes ACC and OU goes Pac-12, could a scenario arise where those two are actually fighting to take KU with them? Absolutely. Sources have told me that if that were to become the case, it's much more likely that KU would go with Texas to the ACC or with K-State and Missouri to the Big East.

But... If the Pac-12 offer comes first and the Big 12 is falling apart around them, KU would have to have one heck of a guarantee from Texas AND the ACC or the Big East to pass on that offer.

While it seems like we're starting to figure some of this out, it's actually just getting crazier and crazier by the minute.

Stay tuned...

5:23 p.m. Update:

Trying something new here - a little feature that will help us keep track of the day's events... I think.... I hope.... Let's see.

3:21 p.m. Update:

More from Berry Tramel of The Oklahoman, who just held a chat over the lunch hour that answered a few more questions.

http://blog.newsok.com/berrytramel/2011/09/13/leftover-lunch-chat-more-questions-answered/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

At this point, it's clear that the Big 12 is in the middle of a showdown between Texas and Oklahoma. All along the thought has been that the Big 12 could, and would, survive so long as OU and UT remained in it. With the two now battling, that can't be good news for the future of the league, no matter how you slice it.

For one, if the two are really that angry with one another, a divorce could be inevitable and the end of the Big 12 could be the collateral damage.

Second, if the two kiss and make up, how long will that last and will we ever be able to trust again that these two schools are seeing eye to eye?

Dark days for the Big 12.

There's always the possibility that Oklahoma's talk about the Pac-12 is part of a power play to get Texas to give up some serious leverage here.

That's what Andy Staples, of SI.com, said in this article that equates the whole realignment mess to a game of "chicken."

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/andy_staples/09/12/staples.conference.realignment/index.html

The more I talk to sources and read around the web, the more I'm thinking that this thing is real and the Sooners want out.

Tramel all but said that this morning on "Fescoe in the Morning" on 610 sports radio.

Here's the link to the podcast page: http://www.610sports.com/pages/10085999.php?

Scroll down to Fescoe's link and look for "9/13/11 Hour Three" to listen.

Here's the money quote:

"Well, I think they're going to the Pac-12 as soon as A&M gets clear," Tramel told the radio show when asked what OU was going to do. "OU has stated that the desire was that A&M stayed and if A&M stays they'll stay, but if A&M goes then OU's gonna go."

Stay tuned.

1:45 p.m. Update:

Sorry, everyone. Just finished up with today's press conference with KU coach Turner Gill and selected players. Can't really skip that.

Let's jump right back in, shall we.

First, a couple of notes from the presser. When asked about the Big 12 and its uncertain future, Gill continued to praise KU's leadership and he said he had faith that the Jayhawks would be fine when all this is over. Gill also said that he's been asked a few times about the situation but that he's been much more focused on football games than the fluid conference realignment situation.

As for the players themselves, a couple of them were asked about the situation, as well. KU quarterback Jordan Webb, a sophomore, said he would, of course, love to stay in the Big 12 because that's why so many players who come to Kansas come - to play in the Big 12. He also said that he realized they had very little control over it and that he'd move forward preparing to play whoever they tell him he has to.

As for true freshman, Tanner Gibas, a long snapper, his brother was a four-year long snapper at Texas A&M. Gibas said the two have talked about the situation and that his brother continues to support the Aggies. As for Gibas himself, "I just tell him, 'Your boys are making a mistake down there,' he said with a grin.

OK... Back to the meat of all this. While I was tied up, this report surfaced from ESPN Dallas that indicates that Oklahoma is, in fact, interested in a move to the Pac-12 but that such a move is nowhere near ready to happen today.

From the article:

"There is strong interest within the leadership of Oklahoma about the Pac-12, really strong, but to characterize it as already (having) been done, well, that's going too far," said the source. "It is fair to say there is strong interest, but that doesn't mean the Big 12 is not an option anymore. The concern is long-term stability."

Here's the link:

http://www.twackle.com/sitebar?url=http://espn.go.com/dallas/ncf/story/_/id/6965871/source-oklahoma-sooners-not-decision-pac-12-move-seeking-stability&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

Back with more soon. Stay tuned....

10:48 a.m. Update:

Some serious stuff is starting to come out of the wood work, as Kirk Bohls of the Austin American Statesman just filed this report that includes a source saying, in no uncertain terms, that the Big 12 is "done."

http://www.statesman.com/sports/longhorns/sources-texas-has-three-viable-realignment-options-1851020.html?cxtype=rss_sports_86442

The report also includes more good info on Texas' last-ditch effort to convince Oklahoma to stick it out in the Big 12. As has been reported previously, the meeting did not go great and Bohls' latest report quotes a source as saying OU had made up its mind before UT even got to Norman, Okla., last Sunday.

From Bohls' report:

"Texas' first choice is to keep the Big 12 together. That's always been and continues to be Plan A and B," a well-placed Texas source said. "However, they know that if Oklahoma and Oklahoma State leave, the conference is no longer viable. Then it's time to look at Plan C."

This report also includes some good info about the ACC's role in all of this. Starting to get serious, folks.

Stay tuned....

9:42 a.m. Update:

Sorry for getting caught in general-overview mode in my first post of the day. In an effort to keep all this straight, I momentarily forgot why I was here. And that’s to analyze and inform you on Kansas University’s role in all this.

Frustrations are mounting about KU’s apparent lack of involvement in this mess, but I can assure you that things are not exactly what they appear there either.

Athletic director Sheahon Zenger has spent the majority of each day since Boren decided to speak up about OU’s stance working to solidify KU’s place in all this. On Labor Day, while the rest of the conference’s ADs shut things off and stepped away from realignment to be with their families, Zenger continued to work the phones. Many of those phone calls to other ADs were either ignored outright or greeted by the polite but disheartening sounds of ‘Can we talk tomorrow?’

Monday, while in Chicago at a previously scheduled event with KU donors, Zenger spent as much time on the phones as he did in the same room with the people he was there with. The man has made conference realignment his top priority since talk of A&M’s departure to the SEC first surfaced in late July, and he will continue to do so until it’s finished.

But it’s not just Zenger who’s fighting for KU’s place here. More than one Big 12 source has indicated to me that KU chancellor Bernadette Gray-Little is “right in the thick of all this” and those same sources have said that they have been impressed with the tenacity and passion with which KU’s chancellor has approached realignment.

I’m sure you’ve heard this more than once, probably even a time or two in this very blog; but it won’t hurt you to hear it again. Just because KU’s leaders are not out in public with what they’re doing and thinking every step of the way does not mean they’re not working. They are, just like chancellors, presidents and ADs at Kansas State, Missouri, Baylor and Iowa State, among others. Everyone involved in conference realignment in one way or another — be it the key movers and shakers or the people and places that will be impacted greatly by whatever shakes down — realizes the gravity of the situation.

While I’m sure Zenger would love to come out with a statement today that illustrates exactly what KU’s stance is and outlines a time table for all this to be over or else, threats such as those won’t go very far and likely would do more harm to KU than good. So KU sits quiet, but active, remains loyal to the conference it’s in, for now, and readies the troops for options A, B and C, depending upon which course of action becomes most prudent.

Oklahoma, the Pac-12, the SEC and Texas — maybe in that order — are the key players here. Everyone else must simply wait to see or hear what the powers that be within those four groups decide and then we’ll all be able to move on from there. At least in any official manner.

Props to Baylor for sticking its neck out and getting involved. The Bears’ bold move last week bought some time. But it didn’t really change anything. Not for Baylor, not for the Big 12 and not for realignment as a whole.

We’re still waiting on Oklahoma. As much as people are probably ready for all this to be over, I’m afriad it may be just beginning.

Stay tuned....

9:19 a.m. Update:

Just when you think you’ve got this whole conference realignment thing figured out, something crazy happens and all logic flies out the window.

Then again, maybe it’s not so crazy. Maybe it’s your logic that was crazy in the first place. Or maybe it is crazy just not yet. You know, it’s going to be crazy as soon as something else triggers the crazy mechanism and gets the whole thing rolling.

Anyway, that’s where we’re at as we enter Day 12 — at least for this round — of a movement that could reshape college athletics as we know them. What began Sept. 2 with a couple of bold statements from Oklahoma president David Boren has taken just about every twist and turn imaginable since that Friday night, the eve of the college football season, no less, when Boren decided to steal the spotlight and point it firmly at Norman, Okla.

Since that night, plenty of other universities, conference commissioners and school presidents have had their moment in the sun. Texas always seems to be there in some form or another. The Pac-12’s Larry Scott has had plenty to say, even if he’s trying not to say much. Even little old Baylor has stuck its head into the fight.

Through it all, 12 days — minus a couple here and there — of rumors, sources and mind-numbing speculation, we’re really in the same spot we started. We’re all waiting on Boren to make a decision about the Sooners’ future.

Initially, it looked as if OU was a university divided on the issue. Stick with the Big 12 and leverage your explorations for equal revenue sharing and a few other concessions from Texas or bolt for the Pac-12 and the promise of conference stability, ignoring the geographic and historic disadvantages that may await.

Reports surfaced Monday that indicated that the Sooners — along with Oklahoma State — had made up their minds and would apply for membership in the Pac-12 by the end of the month. I’m betting it’s not that cut-and-dry. OU may go. But it won’t be that easy. There’ll be more lawsuits threatened, pleas made and invitations considered. Heck, at this point, we’re not even 100 percent sure that the Pac-12 wants the Sooners, though Scott’s quick about-face on Monday after hearing that the SEC officially had agreed to accept Texas A&M into the conference might have been Scott tipping his hand a little.

The bottom line is this: Scott desperately wanted the Big 12 south teams to come aboard last summer. It didn’t work out. He got Colorado and Utah instead. Not enough time has passed for Scott to have changed his mind that much and OU and UT are still the best looking girls at the party. Scott wants to dance with both of them. Whether they’ll both be around long enough for him to make it happen remains to be seen.

Pete Thamel, of the New York Times, has some good info on last weekend’s meeting between Texas and Oklahoma officials in this story, filed late Monday night.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/13/sports/ncaafootball/texas-tries-to-convince-oklahoma-to-stay-in-big-12.html?_r=2&ref=sports

As much as it appears as if these two are headed for a divorce, I caution against signing the paperwork too soon. If we’ve learned one thing in all of this it’s that things are not always what they appear or what you hear.

Berry Tramel, of the Oklahoman, has been following this thing as well as anyone. Could his latest blog entry, "Why middle America might be without a league" be tipping his hand about what he expects the outcome to be. Have a look.

http://blog.newsok.com/berrytramel/2011/09/13/big-12-why-middle-america-might-be-without-a-league/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

Stay tuned....

;

Comments

justinryman 2 years, 10 months ago

If the mortar starts to crack the whole foundation is weaker. Those little lines between the bricks may not seem that substantial, but they are the glue the keeps a wall vertical and not in pieces laying on the ground.

In the Big12 or what is left of it, the mortar is cracking. A few base stones were taken from it last year when Nebraska, the biggest thorn in Bevo's hoof left and the step child Colorado(who would have thought they made the right decision then?). As they were taken the mortar started cracking out from under the rest of the bricks in the wall.

To salvage themselves before FEMA was called in, A&M started to move out early and are still trying, unfortunately the brick ties(Baylor) is holding them from tumbling to the ground. But yet as all eyes are on the wobbly corner of A&M, OU and OKst are starting the process of removal from the wall. Who knows what Texas and Texas tech are doing behind the scenes.

All the while the most fragile of all the bricks, Kansas, Missouri, Iowa St., and Kansas St. are not only letting the mortar crack but sometimes those cracks run right through the middle of the brick making it unrepairable. Not saying that those schools listed will fall apart all together, but they will go from a strong wall to pavers in someones garden if they are not careful.

I know the heads at KU want the Big12 to stay together, but isn't it about time they see the graffiti sprayed on the wall and look out for themselves? Nobody ever wants to jump ship before its confirmed to be sinking, but the Big12 is as close to the Titanic on its maiden voyage as it can be. Buckets full of water can't stop it from sinking.

Matt, I do respect the work you have put into following this mess from day one all the way to day 12 and I'm sure into the future from here. It has went from this and that, to an around the clock with hourly updates. We as fans appreciate what you have done and are doing. Keep up the GREAT work.

Rock Chalk Jayhawk

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Eric Dawson 2 years, 10 months ago

+10 justinryman.

Matt -- ditto j's praise. I've been scouring all over the net for "info", and after the past few weeks of doing this I can say to any and all that you're doing a FANTASTIC job of keeping your readers in the loop with the latest, up-to-date credible (even if crazy) "info". FWIW, I found your initial "situation report recap" this morning to be very "spot on". Sometimes in the heat of action it is necessary to take a step back to survey the whole battlefield to avoid losing sight of the objective. Well done!

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justinryman 2 years, 10 months ago

I am confused by what your point is here, with your avatar and all your typing I'm just not sure your point.**

** denotes sarcastic font

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selfishhawk 2 years, 10 months ago

Thanks, Matt, for your second post. It is comforting to know that KU's adminstrators are not sitting around, hoping for the best. My only concern is that our leadership is too focused on saving the Big 12 and (perhaps) too preoccupied with our ties with K-State. That may just be my perception of the public statements and the private talks are much different.

It is worth mentioning, however, that our loyalty to the Big 12 may have already cost us a spot in the Pac 12. As I recall, last summer's realignment talks came down to KU or A&M, and if A&M went to the SEC, certainly KU. But KU fought hard to save the conference, and the Pac 12 settled on Utah as a 12th member. If this all goes forward again, it may be that KU gets left out and Utah has a coveted spot in a stable conference. Just food for thought.

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jgkojak 2 years, 10 months ago

The 5 remaining B12 teams raid the Big East, and leave Rutgers/'cuse/UConn/Pitt twisting in the wind.

If only a couple Big East schools jump their football is finished, and the ACC gobbles up those remaining teams, forcing the B10 out of their hole. The guess is that Penn St doesn't want Pitt and the other B10 teams don't wanna share revenue until their TV deal is renegotiated in 2016. So the B10 lets the ACC have those teams.

The B12 limps along for two more years and at that time, the B10 adds Notre Dame, Texas, MO and KS.

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Clarence Haynes 2 years, 10 months ago

Penn St would prefer Rutgers or Maryland for both media and recruiting reasons.

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jgkojak 2 years, 10 months ago

I think, if the ACC is first to 16, especially if they have TEXAS as being reported, that Maryland would prefer not to be in the Big 10 (travel would be difficult vs being smack in the middle of a fairly compact conference).

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jay381 2 years, 10 months ago

Matt. You are absolutely correct in your statement of Berry Tramel following this and any other story involving OU sports. I followed him when I lived in OK dating back to the 1980’s. I still read his daily column online and if available stream his spot on the sports talk radio. He is consistently tuned into OU sports and well respected.

Just to add to the speculation Jim Traber (OSU grad and former broadcaster of the AZ Diamondbacks) made some interesting statements upon his return to his show in OKC last evening on WWLS. He was in AZ performing some pre game (football OSU and AZ) interviews with AZ players and coaches. He said last evening on his radio show the sports writers in AZ considered the OU move a fait accompli and it was just a matter of ironing out the details of conference re alignment and number and identities of others.

Just adding to the speculation. Who knows??

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Krohnutz 2 years, 10 months ago

When I was stationed down there Traber and Eschbeck (sp?) always had a lot to say about EVERYTHING. I liked those guys, and I really should be tuning in online to get a feel for what the Oklahoma City area feels like with this. 810 here is essentially worthless once Kietzman comes on because all he says is that Kansas State is awesome and should be in the greatest conference ever. I hate that guy, worst radio personality I've ever had to put up with. It is one thing to be proud of your school, it is another to be a jackass about it.

What I find funny in all this is that Traber was hated by a ton of OU alumni for being "too pro Oklahoma State." I never felt like WWLS was anything more than fair, actually, if they were ANYTHING it was that they were very pro OU. But maybe if you mention OSU at all the OU people thought it was too much, hard to say.

It should be noted that WWLS was pretty honest in giving KU credit in the basketball department, and that was when we had Roy, who could only make Final Fours, not win titles. I am sure they are pro-Self.

Hey, out of curiousity, do you remember Dan Lutz?

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kureader 2 years, 10 months ago

I have no doubt that Zenger is spending every waking minute thinking about or working on the problem. He's showing up at other KU events (I bumped into him a few days ago), but he's clearly preoccupied with the Big 12 changes.

The Chancellor? I'm sure she knows what's going on, because Zenger keeps her informed. But, can you see her influencing anyone? This is the same woman who couldn't find time to announce the departure of Perkins and deferred the job to Bill Self.

Things look better for KU now, than at this time last year. But, I'd be surprised if Zenger or the Kansas Board of Regents accepted any resolution that separates KU from K-Straight.

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jgkojak 2 years, 10 months ago

Remember where BG Little came from - North Carolina - she has ACC connections - and if this ACC thing is true - a couple things happen: 1) Texas needs a rival/pod partner out west - that will be Kansas and probably K-State to go along with Texas Tech.

2) Texas will probably advocate for KS to come with them to either the Pac or ACC - they really need KU basketball.

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FreeRider 2 years, 10 months ago

I'm an ASU grad who also lived in KC for 3 1/2 years and even found my KU wife there. So, I'm very interested in what is going on with the Pac and KU. I could see this playing out probably just one way. Larry Scott will be ecstatic and persuade the Pac presidents to be ecstatic too that they will get OU and OSU. That alone will re-open the TV contracts and pour even more money into the conference.

But, I've got to think Texas' wavering and roadblocks are way too much for any conference to overcome. Their arrogance of re-ordering any conference they join (no matter the benefits they would obviously bring) to fit their needs will chase the Pac presidents away. So, what happens then? Well, the Pac could try a 14-school league but that would break up its long history of dual traveling partners or the Noah's Ark approach.

If you read Scott's comments in the Seattle Times chat closely, he appears to be talking about scheduling built around the pod approach discussed last year -- or maybe even the zipper approach. If it is the pod system and UT won't bend on being a good conference partner, then who does the Pac go after? Texas Tech apparently also wants into the Pac NOW, but the Pac wouldn't want them unless UT was included. That's why I think Larry Scott will give UT one last chance with a short response time to be like all the other Pac schools or he moves on to KU and Mizzou.

Both schools are AAU members and would add academic credibility to the league -- something the presidents would love after accepting OU and OSU -- while KU is an elite basketball power (not the focal point of expansion but important nonetheless) and Mizzou has fairly strong athletic programs as well. Plus, they wouldn't have the Texas headaches to make exceptions all the time. Yes, the Pac would lose out on the important Houston and Dallas TV markets, but as a consolation it would get great institutions that bring the KC and St. Louis markets -- not anywhere near as big, but good nonetheless. And, besides, it has already added a national power in OU like the Big Ten did with Nebraska.

Then, it could create the four pods -- former Big 8, Mountain, Cali and NW -- with better balance athletically between two divisions than if you stacked OU and UT together in one of them. It's not the grand slam the Pac wanted last year, but it's a very good alternative that sets up the conference for years to come as a player in both football and basketball with more regional scheduling.

The questions though are would KU and Mizzou really want to join the Pac and could KU split from KSU? I just don't see the Pac wanting UT in the end because of all the baggage it carries. If it bends for UT, then how does it explain that to USC or even Oregon/Washington/ASU? The Pac will demand it be a conference of equals, like the Big Ten does, and keep a focus on academics as well as athletics. The Texas way just seems too far removed from the Pac's mission.

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Ben Kane 2 years, 10 months ago

interesting perspective, though i have to disagree in that OU brings the dallas tv market.

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FreeRider 2 years, 10 months ago

I don't think OU necessarily brings the Dallas market; UT would if they could be tamed to join a normal conference.

However, like the Big Ten's reasoning for adding Nebraska, OU is undeniably a national football powerhouse that will bring eyes from around the country to Pac games that particularly involve OU. Just as that was a strong argument for the Big Ten when it negotiates its next TV contract, it will be a strong one for the Pac which can re-open its contracts if it expands to include OU. And, it takes some of the pressure off the conference to bend for UT which obviously would bring national attention and eyeballs from the Dallas and Houston markets.

The real difference to the Pac from going after KU/Mizzou instead of UT/Tech would be losing out on the Dallas and Houston markets; but, it would still get the KC and St. Louis ones which would be the next best option for a western conference.

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Ben Kane 2 years, 10 months ago

I was only speaking from my experience of living in Dallas, many OU fans there. Obviously there are UT fans there as well.

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FreeRider 2 years, 10 months ago

Oh, I'm sorry, I read your comment as being just the opposite -- that you thought I was claiming OU would bring the Dallas market, which I didn't claim. But, now you're bringing up an idea I didn't know about -- that there is a big OU presence in the Dallas market.

Do you think the Pac could push TV appearances into the Dallas market for most of OU's football games? I just assumed UT exclusively dominated that market.

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ahpersecoachingexperience 2 years, 10 months ago

Good take but the addition of OU with leftover scrapes from ku, Osu, and MU mixed with a football crazed state would easily be enough people solidify the Dallas market.

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TKHAWK 2 years, 10 months ago

I agree with all your points. I just keep thinking how ticked Colorado would be if that played out. They moved to the PAC becuase they have always viewed themselves as the eastern border of the west coast. They want to travel to the coast, not Oklahoma and Kansas. I'm not suggesting they have much, or any, say in the matter, but man they'd be ticked! (i can't use stronger language on line)

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FreeRider 2 years, 10 months ago

CU could still be different than the old Big 8 members because it would be in a pod with Utah, UofA and ASU. How the pods are scheduled is still unclear and how they are arranged as divisions would be interesting.

But, the short of it would be you definitely play the three schools in your pod every year. The Pac likes to have 9 conference games, leaving 6 to fill for each school. With three other pods to schedule against, the Pac could choose two games against each of the other pods to fill out the 9-game conference schedule or some other combination like four games against a new pod each year and one game within each of the other two remaining pods. How the pods are split as divisions to allow for a conference title game would be really interesting, but using the pod approach would give schools exposure to each region of the conference (yes, particularly LA that everyone wants) every year while guaranteeing rivalries within the pods.

The other idea is the zipper approach which would peel the traveling partners apart into separate divisions. So, for instance, ASU and UofA would be in separate football divisions and UCLA and SC would be separated. The upside is every school would get exposure in every market (Okie, Kan/Mo, Ski, AZ, SoCal, NoCal, Oregon, Wash) and then get its traveling partner (for basketball) as a game and one other opposite division game. The downsides are more football travel and difficulty in knowing what division each school is in -- sort of like the silly Big Ten Leaders and Legends divisions -- because it breaks up the geography of the conference.

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doctorWho 2 years, 10 months ago

Yes, I'm sure they would be pissed off during basketball season when the Coors Event center was once again overflowing with Crimson and Blue . . .

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TKHAWK 2 years, 10 months ago

Good article and good links. I agree, there is always more behind the scenes than we know and I have confindence that KU officials are doing everything they can no matter what the outcome. I will admit however, I'm starting to resent Oklahoma State in all of this for taking a "we'll do whatever OU does" stance. I'm not saying they would advocate for keeping the conference together, but they might end up being the voice of reason for their state brother. Can you imagine K-State sitting back and saying, "whatever Kansas does is fine by us."?

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tolawdjk 2 years, 10 months ago

In terms of televisions, the Utah move makes more sense than KU did.

Last I looked, KC was the 31st largest market, Salt Lake was 33. However, in terms of percent of people that give a poop, I have to guee more percentage of SLC TVs want to know how the Utes are doing on Sat, compared to the percentage of KC TVs want to know how the Hawks are doing.

Add in that, and this is only a guess, there are more "PAC 10" alum in SLC than there are "PAC 10" alum in KC.

As a first step to 12 teams, it made more sense. However, as a set, KU and MU bring St. Louis at 21 and KC at 31. Further there are Wichita-Hutch, Springfield, Cape Giardaeu (all in the bottom 50 of the top 100 TV markets)...a TV is a TV when looking at Conference expansion into uncharted areas. By comparison...OU/OSU is OK City at 45 and Tulsa at 61.

From at TV analysis perspective, there are more area fans tied to the KU/MU grouping than the OU/OSU grouping. True, OU/OSU brings a dual top 10 football program into the mix, but that is only as good as this season and recruiting into the future. Stoops won't be around forever, just ask NU when Osborne left.

From the academic side, KU/MU is two AAU schools. OU/OSU zilch.

If the power that be are looking at this, there can be a strong arguement for the KU/MU/KSU block to the PAC over the OU/OSU block. It would be nice to hear the powers that be coming out and saying they are active on this rather than their mouthpieces and people behind curtains. I will be the first to admit, I'm not a Williams level donor. I give what I can, when I can. Might just be an Alumni membership one year, might be more the next. However, I would like to see people at least appear to give a poop about the future of the placement of the University.

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lama 2 years, 10 months ago

Not really -- Utah isn't even the dominant team in its market (BYU). Kansas City is much more of a KU town than anything else now. Plus, someone posted statistics recenty about how important college sports is to KC -- it's in the top five markets in the country.

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utahjayhawk 2 years, 10 months ago

I grew up in KC and moved to SLC 5 years ago so I have first hand evidence of both. BYU does not dominate the SLC market -- it's a fairly even split with U and Y fans. In KC, the Hawks have a slight edge over MU with KSU a distant third.

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danmoore 2 years, 10 months ago

The Pac 12 is only interested in OU & UT. Everyone else is a package deal. That leaves 7 schools vying for 2 spots. I don't like the odds.

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jgkojak 2 years, 10 months ago

If the ACC adds Texas... the Big East is as dead as the Big 12 - because they'll also at least add Syracuse and UConn and attempt to add Rutgers, Pitt and WVU.

This pod system is intruiging-

So Texas could be in a WEST pod with Kansas, Kansas State and Texas Tech. (Assuming MU goes SEC).

That sounds to me like a better solution than joining the Big East.

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Hank Cross 2 years, 10 months ago

Why would UT want to be in a pod with KS schools? UT would want to be linked with the FLA schools so it can go recruiting in the 3rd most populated state.

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Chris Bailey 2 years, 10 months ago

I'm hearing that Kansas stands to gain somewhere around 100 million dollars in a lawsuit naming departing schools and the networks for creating this problem. I'm also hearing we would win that lawsuit. This along with the rest of the remaining Big12 members. I hope it's true and we hit them where it hurts if that is true! Any news on that Matt???

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Chris Bailey 2 years, 10 months ago

Was told second hand by someone listening to talk radio on his way to work this morning. I think espnradio.

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FreeRider 2 years, 10 months ago

You might want to review how little the Big East schools got in their lawsuit when Miami, VaTech and BC left. It worked out to about only $5 million and conferences since then have created exit fees that are meant to cover the costs to other members of any school leaving. Furthermore, the judges in the Big East case removed the ACC and its members from the lawsuit; really, only Miami paid the minimal cost of exiting as the case was settled out of court. Why? Because all sides wanted it go away since it was unwinable. That's why the SEC was more than willing to announce yesterday it looked forward to when (not if) A&M begins play in the league next year -- in other words, its lawyers finally confirmed they, in effect, could make a public statement that everything would be okay for the league regarding the threat of any lawsuit from Big 12 schools. There's no cash cow there or ability to keep the Big 12 unwillingly together. Instead, the danger for those expecting a payoff is that they are left behind with no money from an agreed-to dissolved league AND nowhere comfortable to land for its athletic programs.

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DevilHawk 2 years, 10 months ago

Don't worry, the attorneys' fees would cover at least half of that...

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DevilHawk 2 years, 10 months ago

The Statesman article seems to be leaking UT's perspective and wants rather than analyzing the situation. It also sounds like UT's call for other conferences to start actively recruiting the school - if they haven't already.

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Hank Cross 2 years, 10 months ago

UT to the ACC really sets the table for KU being in a sweet spot. If UT goes to the ACC, the ACC is stabilized and will likely be able to fend off a raid by the SEC. UT would be interested in the ACC because it appears to be willing to accomodate the LHN and on a pod system, while the P12 does not.

That would leave just the remants of the B12 and the BE available for poaching. There's not a strong traditional FB power among them. WVa maybe, but TCU's rise is fairly recent and MU has never even been to a BCS bowl.

Geographically, the P12 would have no other choices but KU and MU. KU and MU would be a good fit for the B1G geograpically and academically and KU FB isn't going to threaten the balance and KU BB adds value.

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DevilHawk 2 years, 10 months ago

Mizzou is one of the "winningest" programs in the country since Gary Pinkel took over.*

That, access to the St. Louis market, and perceived access to the KC market seem to be the key factors in conferences looking at Mizzou.

  • Of course, that seems not to consider the fact that most of those wins came against the Big 12 North or non-BCS schools.
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pcutjayhawk 2 years, 10 months ago

I know we are not hearing from the Big ten, and many of you are speculating the big ten won't expand until their TV deal is up in 2016. Why? Won't they have to join in on the realignment as well once the dominos start falling? While I'd love to see the Jayhawks join the PAC (I'd see them play a lot more), the big ten is a better spot for them, even though it maybe a long shot. Here's hoping once things get rolling, we hear something from the big ten.

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FreeRider 2 years, 10 months ago

Like the other conferences, the Big Ten's focus would be expanding its TV footprint to increase revenue. Each conference is asking itself how best to grow its revenue in a way that brings acceptable schools to its conference. For the Pac, its options are basically limited to Big 12 schools. There's nothing west of the Big 12 that would add value to its footprint. That's why it is most interested in UT, OU and, perhaps, KU/Mizzou. For the Big Ten, it could care less about the KC market. It wants NYC, DC and maybe even Atlanta. There are no real good options for NYC, other than Notre Dame (which insists on its independence) and to a lesser extent Rutgers. In the DC market, it could easily grab Maryland or Virginia and they would be thrilled to be part of the Big Ten. In the Atlanta market, GaTech could be an option for them. But, the most intriguing and maybe likely rumor I've read about the Big Ten is Duke and North Carolina would ask to join as a package deal after the SEC steals VaTech.

Though football is driving this footprint expansion, the Big Ten would probably love to add Duke and NC -- growing state with elite basketball, making the Big Ten a better basketball package. That puts the Big Ten at 14 and now the question for Notre Dame is does it want to be left out of super-conferences -- the same thing UT is dealing with? If so, then they would likely focus on Maryland and Rutgers/GaTech before they would even look anywhere else. I'm in Big Ten territory and the sense is it got everything it needed out of the Big 12 when it asked Nebraska to join and snubbed Mizzou.

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jgkojak 2 years, 10 months ago

The Big 10 will ONLY add AAU schools - so UNC yes, Duke no.

And I am guessing the Big 10 will be last to the table with 16 - remember schools like Northwestern and Penn St have no desire to share the pie 16 ways instead of 12 - until there is a new TV contract.

And the 1st place will be Notre Dame. Once they join, they will invite 3 other schools - here are their preferences in order: 1. Texas - not likely, would only happen if its a condition of Notre Dame joining. Question: would Texas demand MU/KU as travel partners? 2. Rutgers - for the NYC market - they'll join instantly 3. Pitt (major TV market - Penn St may fight it) 4. Maryland (I'm guessing they stick with the ACC - travel-wise the B10 is a headache vs being smack in the middle of their conference) 5. Mizzou (this is what MU is holding out for an why they would turn down the SEC) 6. Kansas

So for us to get the B10 invite - either Texas brings us along or Pitt and Maryland are no-go's.

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FreeRider 2 years, 10 months ago

Duke, like UNC, is an AAU school -- as is Maryland, Rutgers and GaTech. The only school I mentioned for the Big Ten that is not an AAU school is Notre Dame, but they would be the exception the Big Ten would willingly accept. And, should UT join the Big Ten -- which I don't believe will happen even more than I don't believe they will join the Pac -- it wouldn't care about a travel partner.

I think the mistake many are making is looking at this from the individual school's perspective. It needs to be viewed from the conference's perspective -- they want to add dollars by expanding their footprints into big TV markets or to schools that carry a national identity. Of the schools you list, only Texas and Notre Dame would be able to name what conference they would want to join. But, even they would have to compromise a lot to make it happen and they would take their marching orders from the conference because, like the Pac, the Big Ten is not going to bend its rules to fit what UT and ND want. If they did, then what would stop Ohio State, Michigan, Nebraska, Penn State, on and on from doing the same thing that is now causing the Big 12 to implode? They want a bigger revenue footprint, but keep conference stability at the same time. UT's current position about the LHN is toxic to any discussions about being a member of the Pac or Big Ten or even the SEC (which it does not want to join for academic reasons).

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oldalum 2 years, 10 months ago

Nebraska is no longer an AAU school. Bet that was a surprise to the Big 10.

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justinryman 2 years, 10 months ago

"When the walls come tumblin' down When the walls come crumblin' crumblin' When the walls come tumblin' tumblin' down" John Mellencamp

"I don't need no arms around me And I dont need no drugs to calm me. I have seen the writing on the wall. Don't think I need anything at all. No! Don't think I'll need anything at all. All in all it was all just bricks in the wall. All in all you were all just bricks in the wall." Pink Floyd

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ejlumus 2 years, 10 months ago

This comment was removed by the site staff for violation of the usage agreement.

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FlintHawk 2 years, 10 months ago

Errr. Uh. 'Scuse me for interrupting, but how does a bunch of men fighting remind you, exactly, of a "bunch of women fighting in the office"?

It IS a bunch of men fighting. That's a fact. So:

"dog fight dog fight This is a bunch of men fighting in the office" Stupid stupid stupid............."

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ejlumus 2 years, 10 months ago

This reminds me ....... STUPID!!!!!

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Ben Kane 2 years, 10 months ago

I'm still sticking to the scenario i played out from the beginning of this two weeks ago. the big12 ends up poaching the big east (presumbably at least wvu & pitt) and maybe adding the likes of a byu etc, but in the end. the big 12 survives, though not in any resemblence to the way we know it now.

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jgkojak 2 years, 10 months ago

This would be the smart plan - the Big East is the biggest threat to the interests of Kansas.

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jgkojak 2 years, 10 months ago

This would be the smart plan - the Big East is the biggest threat to the interests of Kansas.

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danmoore 2 years, 10 months ago

I don't know what our options are but I don't want to be in the Big 10. It's a good conference academically and they are good in all sports but one. Football. They must have been good in grandpa's day but they have been mediocre over the past four decades. They're also unbelievable snobs.

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cajayfan 2 years, 10 months ago

But it is definitely the men fighting in this office. Ego, ego, ego.

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Steve Brown 2 years, 10 months ago

anyone want to play delusional musical chairs? It's where 9 of us circle around one little fold up three legged chair with a big guy in the corner in a cushy LazyBoy playing the music. It won't stop until he has created his landing pad. The crazy part is thinking that his music playing or not has anything to do with us and our having a chair. Those that see the game clearly have left or are exiting. the band played on.

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ahpersecoachingexperience 2 years, 10 months ago

Thank gawd I'm not playing "source" = shot. I'd be in an alcohol induced coma.

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blindrabbit 2 years, 10 months ago

I think the future is 4 major 16 team conferences: PAC-12 based, SEC based, Big 10 based and a ACC-Big East blend. The remaining majors that do not fit into that format are going to be adrift as far as BSC (if it survives) for football. At this point, I feel KU, KSU, ISU and Baylor are going to end up in the "have nots", along with a few other leftovers. It's too bad that KU focused so much on basketball and ignored football over the years; we're going to pay for that now! The big money for the most of college sports is obviously football; for many schools (KU not included) basketball is not a revenue generating sport.

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TKHAWK 2 years, 10 months ago

The one positive I could see to a 4 major conference system is that it would almost mandate a football playoff system and kill the BCS.

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FreeRider 2 years, 10 months ago

And, it might be the end of the NCAA as we know it. There has been a long history of major football powers trying to separate themselves from the rest. That's why Division I-A (now FBS) and Division I-AA (now FCS) were created in the first place during the late 1970s. The original plan was that there would be even fewer Division I-A schools by limiting schools based on attendance, stadium size, etc. That way the major football powers would share less money with the smaller, less significant, programs. Today's super-conferences idea is just another extension of that movement -- trying to, first, expand revenue to certain programs and, second, limit distribution to a smaller group. Three, maybe four, super-conferences of 16 schools each would naturally lead to a playoff system (that could still use the bowls) and allow those select schools to create a new enforcement agency for their programs. The NCAA as it is only exists because the school presidents want it to exist; it has no mandate other than what is given to it by the schools. Once the super-conference schools get a whiff of the money they will be earning, I could easily see them wanting a more lax enforcement system. That's why it is so important to position oneself for a super-conference NOW instead of begging for it later. Very few schools outside of the coming new structure would even be listened to -- perhaps only Notre Dame and Texas if they chose to go independent.

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R2D2 2 years, 10 months ago

OK...the more I think about this the more I think Texas, Texas Tech, KU, KSU, MU, Baylor and ISU could merge with the ACC (they have 12 schools and will loose Va.Tech, Clemson and another to the SEC) and the remaining 9 ACC schools combine with the 7 Big 12 schools for a 16 team conference. Lets face it, we are more like the ACC schools than the Pac 12 schools and lets us keep an east coast presence for basketball recruiting. The Big East would be the biggest loser here and the Pac 12 would not have many options to get to 16 schools. Everything hinges on where the dominos tumble first. If the SEC gets aggressive, the ACC could be ready to merge in short order. I think this is actually a very real possibility...and it is shaping up to be Texas best chance also. I wouldn't be surprised if Texas is already talking to the remaining Big 12 schools about this already since OU basically told Texas to get in last Sunday's meeting.

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adisonvc 2 years, 10 months ago

If the ACC goes to a Pod System, what about Texas, Texas Tech, KU, and MU.

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DallasJayhawk1 2 years, 10 months ago

If we only still had Mangino and been to a couple decent bowls, rankings, etc since the Orange Bowl in '08 to raise our football value. He was large--but in charge.

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jaymar74 2 years, 10 months ago

Did you even view Mangino's last year a little???? We were not going to be in any bowl with him for any time soon. Look at his recruits over the last year. Slow and slower.

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Rivethead 2 years, 10 months ago

You're right. Mangino's last few recruiting classes sucked.

Can't believe how bad James Sims, Bradley McDougald, Tanner Hawkinson, and Toben Opurum are.

I mean, seriously, what was he thinking?

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Hank Cross 2 years, 10 months ago

Interesting thoughts from Jon Wilner:

"*** My sense is that the ACC might be more accommodating to Texas’ demands — err, needs — in terms of logistics, revenue and TLN than the Pac-12.

The Pac-12 won’t budge on its principles of revenue distribution and the planned network structure to satisfy any school."

and,

"*** If Texas is not involved in the equation, would the Pac stick on 14 or find two additional members to reach 16?

This, to me, is the most interesting issue.

Scott and the league’s CEOs are not interested in expansion for expansion’s sake, and with Oklahoma (in) and Texas (out) accounted for, there would be no obvious must-have.

But at the same time, 14 is not very manageable in terms of scheduling and divisions."

And a message to CU to suck it up buffs and Be glad you're here at all.

http://blogs.mercurynews.com/collegesports/2011/09/13/pac-12-football-the-latest-on-expansion/

Really, really, want to see this UT to ACC get some legs. As I said above, probably locks in a P12 invite.

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justinryman 2 years, 10 months ago

A friend of a friend who knows a guy who knows a guy who heard from his un-named source close to the situation that Texas, ND and BYU are starting their own conference.

Other schools joining are: Samford, Boston College, Baylor, Gonzaga, Loyola Marymount University, Loyola Chicago, Marquette, St. Josephs and Xavier.

The difference between all the members vs Texas is they all believe in God, why Texas believes it is God.

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Travis Clementsmith 2 years, 10 months ago

KU-MU might be in a sweet spot if Texas and the ACC thing has legs. I imagine both the PAC and the ACC will want those schools.

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Travis Clementsmith 2 years, 10 months ago

PAC probably has a better financial and security package. ACC with Texas keeps our Texas recruiting lines open as well as play in one of the best basketball conferences.

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blindrabbit 2 years, 10 months ago

Why wish for a ACC invite if it's basketball you are thinking. The ACC schools already compete head-to-head for recruits in a cut-throat fashion. I suggest the PAC-12 where there is much less competition by West Coast Schools,; it would appear to be ripe picking for a school like KU.

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FreeRider 2 years, 10 months ago

The ACC is in trouble once the SEC and eventually the Big Ten come calling. That is all!

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jgkojak 2 years, 10 months ago

No- because the Big East is the 5th conference, not the ACC.

Which is why, again , the B12 should be picking off the Big East's football schools.

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Ben Kliewer 2 years, 10 months ago

How can the Big 12 pick off the BEast's football schools? The Big 12 doesn't exist anymore.

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FreeRider 2 years, 10 months ago

It's a tsunami with three safe outcroppings -- SEC, Big Ten, Pac -- to land on besides the small spots Notre Dame and Texas occupy. What schools remain after the waves recede could end up forming a fourth safe zone, but there's no guarantee that it will work.

Though it's worth nothing, here's my prediction:

DONE -- A&M becomes SEC #13, OU and OSU become Pac #13 and #14.

NEXT -- VaTech becomes SEC #14.

THEN -- UT must decide what it wants to do because the floodgates open quickly. If it opts out, then KU and MIZZOU become Pac #15 and #16. If it opts in, then UT and Texas Tech become Pac #15 and #16.

Once UT decides its future and what reduced control it can live with, the SEC pounces on the ACC and Big Ten enters the fray.

Big Ten gets Duke and UNC for #13 and #14 and the ACC is now a shell of its former self like the Big 12. Big Ten waits on ND, but now everyone is looking at Maryland for its DC market proximity. Big Ten gets Maryland for its #15 and still waits on ND. SEC grabs whatever two remaining schools from ACC/Big East it wants -- maybe WVa and FSU??? -- to fill out its #15 and #16.

Now, the Big Ten gives ND one last chance before it grabs Rutgers to get a toe into the NYC market. Who knows what ND decides.

The end result is Pac gets four Big 12 schools (OU and OSU definitely and either UT/Tech or KU/Mizzou), SEC gets A&M, VaTech and whoever last two are and Big Ten gets Duke/UNC, Maryland and ND or Rutgers. Big Winner? Big Ten for getting growing North Carolina market, DC and NYC (as good as it can get it). If Pac get UT, then it's a big winner too for getting Dallas and Houston markets and a national OU program. SEC gets the Texas footprint too and could get a strong Virginia/DC presence and solidify Florida perhaps.

The remaining bodies form a new conference from the remainder of the ACC/Big East and perhaps Big 12 if KU and Mizzou left out of the first wave. That conference may or may not be part of super-conference football league -- it depends on who remains. Football is driving this; basketball is largely irrelevant except as it applies to the elite programs like Duke, UNC and perhaps KU.

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Ben Kliewer 2 years, 10 months ago

I've been calling everybody jokers for thinking we're headed anywhere but the BEast. I apologize. That's not very nice. What I should say is that, the B1G or the ACC or the PAC or even the SEC would be awesome. Selfishly, being a Jayhawker in LA, I'd prefer the PAC. Of course, I'm not thinking of the ridiculous travel schedules of the student athletes in that case. But as far as connections to other prestigious programs, and a solid conference, yes, the PAC would be awesome. B1G would be right up our alley geographically, in addition to the same reasons the PAC would be great. The SEC would be a monstrous football gauntlet, but we could rule the basketball landscape with an iron wing (Jayhawks, after all, have wings and not fists). ACC would be pretty cutthroat for recruiting in basketball. But here's my point of view. It really seems like the BEast is our most likely option, followed, perhaps distantly by the PAC, so those are the two I'm focused on. Since the BEast seems to be our most likely landing point (And I like spelling it BEast) I've essentially made peace with the idea. Plus, I think, if they play their cards right, the BEast can be a really awesome conference and maybe scare up some better TV deals than they currently have. With their footprint extending from NY to Florida to Texas (TCU) and potentially all the way to KC, they would have a huge region spanning only two time zones (as opposed to three from CST to PST with the PAC) and some fairly decent teams with large fan bases. Plus, Kansas and KSU both have strong recruiting bases in Texas and the East, at least there is a bit of an edge over the West. Plus, you can tell your basketball recruits that they'll have a chance to play in Madison Square Garden. (I know we are this year already against UK, but it would be every year) People have been saying that the BEast is going to die soon enough. Perhaps that's true, but there's also a lot of potential there to make it a great conference too...

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Hank Cross 2 years, 10 months ago

I agree with that with the exception of the UT to ACC scenario. In that case, the BE becomes the next feeder fish for the ACC, SEC, and B10. If UT goes to the P12, however, the BE is a good and likely landing spot for a while.

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TKHAWK 2 years, 10 months ago

I'm so confused. Who do I root for this weekend now? OU or FSU? (typed with a sarcastic under-tone)

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TKHAWK 2 years, 10 months ago

Who knew KU would have a conference game THIS weekend! (again, sarcasm)

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rob4lb 2 years, 10 months ago

To everyone salivating about KU possibly joining the ACC, think about whether it really elevates the basketball program. Who is in the ACC? UNC and Duke. Who are the media darlings of college basketball? UNC and Duke. What happens if KU joins. They will be behing UNC and Duke in the conference pecking order. There will be nothing they can do to overcome that. They could win multiple conference championships but the two programs that will garner the most media attention are UNC and Duke.

In the Pac-12 or Big 10, if KU is fortunate enough to end up in either place, the Hawks can quickly ascend to the top of the conference. Of course, it's not about basketball and I have uneasy suspicion that if the conference folds, KU will end up in the worst case scenario- the Big East.

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Sam Constance 2 years, 10 months ago

"They could win multiple conference championships but the two programs that will garner the most media attention are UNC and Duke."


IF Kansas wins multiple conference championships in the same conference as Duke and UNC, I guarantee that the tone of the conversation would change.

Of course, KU's success would still be viewed through the lens of Duke/UNC--in other words, KU's success would be amazing BECAUSE they went through Duke/UNC to get there, not for it's own merit---but ample attention would be given to KU.

Plus, KU would have to contend with UCLA out west in the same way it would compete with Duke/UNC, and they are also a bit of a media darling, though not as pronounced as the Tobacco Road schools.

Furthermore, I think the "East Coast Bias" would be more difficult to overcome than the Duke/UNC bias. It's mostly a function of timezone, but overall, less attention is given to the teams on the West Coast than teams on the East Coast. At least in the ACC, the amount of attention levied in KU's direction would be based on something Kansas could control: winning games.

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texashawk10 2 years, 10 months ago

KU basketball tends to do better when the spotlight is off of them and the media isn't paying too much attention to them. That would be the case in the ACC as UNC and Duke would be picked to win the conference every year which means KU would be flying under the radar basically every year so is that really a bad thing?

Also, hitching their wagons to UT isn't a bad thing if KU wants to continue to build their football program. If KU goes to the ACC with Texas and Texas Tech, KU would most likely be playing football game in Texas every year which keeps their profile up in the state.

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hawksfan08 2 years, 10 months ago

It's also worth noting what a texas + acc + northeast ties would do for recruiting.

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Sam Constance 2 years, 10 months ago

This entire process defies all reason.

Texas in the ACC?

Duke and UNC to the Big 10?

Kansas/Missouri to the Pac-12?

I know these are all just speculative/possible outcomes at this point, but good lord. The fact that they are being discussed as serious options is certifiable in my opinion.

ASIDE FROM TV... what the [expletive] is the benefit of having these strange athletic associations that span half the contintental U.S. and have no history or common ground other than a TV deal to play games with each other?

It files in the face of everything that the whole regional collegiate system is about in the first place. A way to provide the local geographic footprint with a source of education, training, and pride. Re-aligning the conferences in this way turns them into little more than glorified pros, with all the revenue going to the private corporation Athletic Departments instead of the athletes (for the record: not implying that college athletes should be paid).

You know what would fix this whole mess--or at least put a hairpin-style kink in everyone's grandiose "super" conference money-grubbing plans?

If Congress stepped in and revoked the tax-exempt status from public universities' athletic departments. Obviously there would still be tons of money involved, but you wouldn't have this "playing with house money" attitude that seems to be permeating all of college athletics. On top of that you help pay down this country's enormous debt and reduce the deficit. Part (only a small part, granted) of the reason we have such enormous debt is because we, as a country, are basically subsidizing the absurd circus of musical chairs that has been playing out in college athletics over the past few years.

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oldalum 2 years, 10 months ago

I wasn't aware that athletic departments were tax-exempt. Are you sure that's true? Even those that are set up as separate corporations? Nobody has ever offered me the chance to deduct what I donate to KU Athletics.

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Sam Constance 2 years, 10 months ago

Pretty sure it's true. I had to do a little digging to confirm, but I found this:

http://businessofcollegesports.com/2011/08/10/why-college-athletes-will-never-be-paid/

Highlight paragraph from the article that alludes to ADs and tax-exempt status (my comments are included in brackets for context):

"The real cost [of paying student athletes], however, is in the athletic department losing its tax exemption under Internal Revenue Code Section 501(c)(3). Currently, athletic departments (which are generally a separate legal entity from the university), athletic foundations/booster clubs and bowl games enjoy tax exempt status because they “promote amateur athletics,” an exempt purpose under the Code. If college athletes were compensated and found to be employees, revocation of this tax-exempt status would surely follow."

So I would hazard a guess that no one has offered that opportunity (to deduct) to you for one of two reasons:

1) They don't want to make it obvious that they are private, for-profit entity that enjoys tax exempt status for some BS loophole about promoting "amateur athletics"

or (more likely, in my opinion)

2) The code that imparts tax exempt status is different from the tax exemption for donating money to charity. They are exempt from paying taxes on their revenue, but they don't enjoy the "charitable cause" distinction that allows donors to write off monetary gifts to charities.

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Krohnutz 2 years, 10 months ago

What amazes me is how buried this story is around most of the country, particularly out of the ESPN camp.

This is a massive situation, and even if it hurts their LHN or the desire to keep the Big 12 alive, you would think it would be to big to cover. It is entirely plausible the NCAA gets scrapped, that we see a new championship format, that the idea of regional conferences goes by the wayside, that student athletes draw paychecks legally, who knows. The entire game could look different in half a decade from these shifts. There are a ton of possibilities and potential, and yet, it doesn't even have a front page bottom rung story?

I hate Walt Disney.

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doctorWho 2 years, 10 months ago

They are covering it, but like you said, it is getting back-burner coverage at this stage. The coverage it deserves IMHO. Their latest (Katz) article I read basically has Oklahoma debunking the Texan's claim OU is as good as out of the Big 12. Of course, that probably just means that OU is waiting for PAC-12-and-counting's approval of a joint OU/OSU application - OU doesn't want egg on their face if the PAC-12 can't agree on OU's entry. Failure to accept doesn't seem likely given the events of a few years ago, but it is possible and definitely would be embarrassing to OU academics. If OU really is considering staying and wants some concessions, it doesn't hurt to show Big 12 leadership (i.e. Texas) that they're serious about leaving by actually putting their finger on the conference realignment trigger.

Aside from hoping the Big 12 stays intact, there is nothing for a Kansas fan to do at this point but wait for all the red dust being kicked-up down south to settle.

I'm getting about as tired of this as I am the NBA lock-out . . .

doesn't keep from coming back to this damn blog everyday, though. Thanks for your efforts Mr. Tait.

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Ben Kane 2 years, 10 months ago

i wrote espn a very nasty letter about this last week. surprisingly, i've heard nothing back.

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Indy_JHawk 2 years, 10 months ago

According to Andy Katz (ESPN)... not soooo fast. See "Source: Oklahoma nowhere near move " below. We are not done yet! The odds might be stacked against us, but you have to believe other conference commissioners, Beebe, other Presidents are still trying to persuade OU to stay (especially with Texas willing to concede - however minutely - a few things such as revenue sharing). The other Big 12 AD's/ Presidents need to stay UNITED and keep the pressure on OU. It appears OU is serious about Pac 12... but is still willing to listen/keep Big 12 option open. They just want stability above all else.

http://espn.go.com/dallas/ncf/story/_/id/6965871/source-oklahoma-sooners-not-decision-pac-12-move-seeking-stability

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FreeRider 2 years, 10 months ago

First, when was the last time ESPN broke something that was true? Second, even the Katz angle that it's not a done deal is refuted by everything else he writes suggesting it is a done deal. All the OU source is saying in the article is that they, in effect, have not ALREADY made the move. Even the OU Board of Regents are floating stories that their minds are made up. Everyone is simply waiting for the official party welcoming Texas A&M into the SEC and that's coming soon as the SEC tipped off yesterday.

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tychi_jayhawk 2 years, 10 months ago

ESPN is reactionary. Rely on Matt and Chip Brown at orangebloods.com for up to the minute info.

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blindrabbit 2 years, 10 months ago

Most of the poster here still have their head up their basketball arses; that's why KU is now struggling to find a home in the majors dominated by FOOTBALL. Still think the PAC12 is best option for us; too much emphasis on BB in ACC, we would just be a "fish in the pond" there. SEC too football dominate, we would be with Kentucky and Vanderbilt (bottom feeders) as far is football is concerned. Big10 might work, but I don't think they are looking at us. BigEast, I've lived back there (D.C. and Philly), had enough of that; their eastern snobbery and media bias won't do us any good.

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Kevin Randell 2 years, 10 months ago

Kleave - that has to be one of the most intelligent posts I have seen to date. I agree....I am hoping we would land in the Pac-12 or the Big10, but realistically, I see us landing in a basketball conference. Because when it comes down to it. Trying to show the Pac and Big 10 that we deserve a chance is like trying to convince the Homecoming Queen she should date the band geek and he's trying to sweeten the deal with coupons to the Sizzler.

Oh....and to clear up my comments. I love KU but, I am going by the fact that in the several months of reading these blogs I have seen NO unity for KU as a whole. It's been basketball vs football. Until we can support all of KU it will be like that old quote. United we stand...divided we fall.

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FreeRider 2 years, 10 months ago

"Trying to show the Pac and Big 10 that we deserve a chance is like trying to convince the Homecoming Queen she should date the band geek and he's trying to sweeten the deal with coupons to the Sizzler."

Hahahahaha! Hey, wait a minute, I like Sizzler.

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Krohnutz 2 years, 10 months ago

Whoa dude, I liked all your post except the part about unity.

I was stuck in a hotel this weekend and I couldn't get the game on TV or radio. So I kept refreshing the live coverage right here from our very own.

I love em, and have to say that I am stoked at being 2-0. Two months ago I would have said we had no shot against NIU. Now I'm debating if we can hang a loss on Georgia Tech. I know it is looking ahead, but wouldn't it be sweet to head to Oklahoma State 4-0?

As far as posts go, I have never posted more on anything other than realignment. This whole thing fascinates me, aggravates me, yet instills me with the hope that someday God will answer my prayers and sink Austin to the inner core of earth.

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Kevin Randell 2 years, 10 months ago

Krohnutz I am not talking about fans like you ...there are many on here that are true blue KU. I am focusing solely on those who have trashed the football program i.e. "how many days till basketball....etc". Plus, vice versa the other way around. I want to see unity....for all of KU. Keep in mind, everyone is open to have their own opinion. But lets just see how far we can go if we support ALL of KU sports!

Oh...FreeRider...I like Sizzler to....lol.

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Ben Kliewer 2 years, 10 months ago

How many days until we play football and basketball in the same week? YES! AWESOME!

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Krohnutz 2 years, 10 months ago

Yeah man, when you get the two best sports on TV all week... I actually enjoy TV then, and can get my wife to change the channel off that lame food network.

If I see one more "chef" whine about getting chopped I am going to puke.

"My sausage and banana cream parfait was easily the best meal served!" Yeah, it was good right up until it hit their taste buds.

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Ben Kliewer 2 years, 10 months ago

I played Sousaphone and I danced with the Prom Queen. Eat that folks! At the Sizzler! :)

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blindrabbit 2 years, 10 months ago

When it comes to problems in college sports now just look at ESPN, Texas Longhorns and Notre Dame egos

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Cody Stumma 2 years, 10 months ago

Still believe that the MWC is the best option for Kansas and Kansas State... with those two schools heading that direction, the conference would most likely take over the Big 12's BCS status... not only that, their level of competition would help all our football and non-revenue sports.

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Kevin Randell 2 years, 10 months ago

True...the MWC has not been mentioned as of late. I think it would be a more rational solution in keeping what's left of the Big XII together as well as adding a team like Boise to the mix. Look, I am not drinking the Boise Kool-aid but they are hot right now. So, I say let's look into that as a possibility.

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Ben Kliewer 2 years, 10 months ago

I have to agree with PAC or Bust here... MWC is just getting weaker. TCU is leaving after this year, and who does that leave us with? Boise...and pretty much a bunch of mediocres. It would not serve KU or KSU to join the MWC.

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Krohnutz 2 years, 10 months ago

I will miss "Thunder" Dan Beebe...

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tychi_jayhawk 2 years, 10 months ago

The irony here is that OU is "looking for stability" while creating instability.... just an observation.

To me, the best reasonable option would be for us and MU to go with OU and OSU to the Pac12. Then they can break it up into two 8 teams leagues. We'd get to play most of our Big8 berethern and the geography would make some sense (not alot, but some). Late games would suck.

BigLeast seems the likley desitnation. I can't say I'm excited by that. Great for basketball and little else. Sure, K-State would go with us, but we'd be relegated to the backwaters of the league.

In any event, Matt has been doing an outstanding job keeping us in Jayhawk nation informed. Keep up the good work!

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FreeRider 2 years, 10 months ago

Would/could KU split off from K-State? It might be key to landing in a better spot.

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Steve Brown 2 years, 10 months ago

Knock knock, who is there? KState who?

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TKHAWK 2 years, 10 months ago

I like that sources are saying its not a done deal, but realistically, my gut says where there is smoke there is fire. Plus, Stoops has known all along where they were heading. He repeatedly said he wasn't going to get involved but then went on to say stupid things like, "that seems to be the wave of the future" (referring to mega conferences), and "I could see a future without Texas". Yeah, way to stay neutral Bob! How about you can create your own stability in this conference? I know the sun will rise tomorrow and this will all play out as its going to, but again and again its just sad to see how much of a hold TV has on college sports. Mark Cuban made a great point when he said, "big dogs don't like to become little dogs." That's exactly what will happen to OU's power and influence in the PAC#.

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FreeRider 2 years, 10 months ago

Check out Berry Tramel's Power Lunch Chat from today (don't just read the leftover questions and answers, click on the arrow and read the complete chat):

http://blog.newsok.com/berrytramel/

I think, as he points out, OU is simply fed up with all the instability. Losing A&M is big for the Big 12 and it sounds like OU is tired of the keeping up with the Texas Joneses pressure. Joining the Pac would turn that big dog into one of many little dogs, but they probably see it as a way to rein in UT also -- should UT decide to go West. Plus, Boren really wants to beef up OU's academic reputation and there are really only two viable conferences that give you that -- Pac-12 and Big Ten. So, though they may be a big dog in the Big 12 now, OU truly sounds like it doesn't mind being one of many little dogs in the Pac as far as the politics go and instead focus on winning on the fields and courts.

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Sam Constance 2 years, 10 months ago

Personally, I love this completely ridiculous notion that joining a given conference beefs up your school's academic reputation.

Oklahoma being in the Pac-12 won't make Oklahoma any more of a quality institution, it will simply make them one of the bottom-feeders (academically) of a conference with many quality institutions.

Having a brain that rattles around inside your skull when you shake your head must be a prerequisite to become a university president. How sad that these guys who are the heads of higher learning organizations would make so many irrational decisions.

OU (or any other school in the geographic footprint of the Midwest) need to understand that in a perfect world, their best location is at home, in the Midwest. EVERYTHING else should be seen as a backup plan or mode of last resort.

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jayhawkinmullen 2 years, 10 months ago

Matt can you please work a little harder on this. Geez

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blindrabbit 2 years, 10 months ago

Free: For sure split from K-State to improve our chances. K-State football and basketball programs rely of stocking their pantry with JuCo players. While this works fairly well, and you cannot deny Bill Snyders success in this area, schools in the major conferences including PAC12, Big10 do not routinely support this concept. Fortunately, KU has limited the use of JuCo's for a variety of reasons. Also, I don't see any advantage to keeping this relationship going other than a football game and a couple of basketball games; the schools could not be more dis-similar otherwise.

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blindrabbit 2 years, 10 months ago

I'm sure the irreverent student crowd at Stanford cannot wait to get that "Okie" thing going! They have already whipped up the Catholic/Pope thing with Notre Dame.

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adisonvc 2 years, 10 months ago

Matt, has there been talk from credible sources that KU possibly would land in the ACC with Texas, Tech, MU or is that a pipe dream. If you go to some of the ACC boards they are talking about that 4 or Baylor instead of MU so I did not know if this was just message board talk or if this actually has legs.

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phoggedin 2 years, 10 months ago

Everything still seems to be in Oklahoma's court, and their response depends in great measure on whether they really have an invitation from the Pac-12. I'm fully prepared to believe that the Pac-12 wants OU and UT together -- that's what they wanted last year, and I don't think their preferences have changed. But I'm not so sure about the OK schools by themselves, without Texas. And it seems like Texas is exploring many other options besides the Pac-12, including the ACC, which would allow the Longhorn Network in much the same form as it currently exists.

In the vote of the Pac-12 presidents, it only takes 4 votes to block. Colorado has already indicated they don't want any former Big 12 schools. How will Utah, the Arizona schools, or even the Oregon and Washington schools vote if they know that the addition the Oklahoma schools doesn't bring Texas, too, and if the addition also means that those schools will go to California much less often? I think Larry Scott can probably muster 9 votes, but it's no sure thing.

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DevilHawk 2 years, 10 months ago

Most people mention that conferences will not stop at 14 teams, as much for scheduling purposes as for any other reason.

However, I don't know of any other conference that operates like the PAC does for scheduling basketball trips.

For football: Divide the teams into two 7-team divisions. Play every team in the division, every year. (6 games) Play half of the other division, every year. Change location/complete the home-and-home series two years later. (3 games years 1 & 3 / 4 games years 2 & 4; 4 games years 1 & 3 / 3 games years 2 & 4)(9 games / 10 games; 10 games / 9 games) Play one FCS team each year, if available. (10 games / 11 games; 11 games / 10 games) Play one non-conference team each year. (11 games / 12 games; 12 games / 11 games) Teams that play only 3 teams in the other division play a second non-conference team that year. (12 games / 12 games; 12 games / 12 games)

For basketball: Use the scheduling format that the Big 12 used (based on divisions, but not recorded in divisions). Results in 19 conference games. * Reduce the number of non-conference games by 1.

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blindrabbit 2 years, 10 months ago

What is Colorado's bone to pick with it's former Big12 mates. I can understand their opposition to Texas, but why the others?

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FreeRider 2 years, 10 months ago

They want access to SoCal -- which is what they get now with the South Division. However, if Larry Scott wants to add 2-4 Big 12 schools (and he will as soon as A&M is officially part of the SEC) the Pac schools will fall in line. Why? Because adding OU and possibly UT will expand the revenue pie even more significantly than he has already expanded it and it gives the Pac the only meaningful additional presence it can make as other conferences expand and generate more revenue. CU is probably just staking out ground should OU and OSU be the only additions; that way, when the conference is split into two divisions of seven schools each, it can fight to remain in the LA schools division and punt Utah to the northern schools division. And, if the conference goes to 16 schools, it (along with probably every other school) will push for a pod or zipper structure to the conference to ensure exposure in California for everyone.

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Krohnutz 2 years, 10 months ago

The only "bone to pick" with former Big 12 mates that I have ever heard is when they say, "Big 12" they really mean Texas. So they might say "We don't want any of our former league members," but they really mean, "We don't want Texas."

Behind closed doors I am sure the language is much more direct about which schools they specifically don't want... Texas... cough cough

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DevilHawk 2 years, 10 months ago

While in the Big 12, they recruited better from California than they did from Texas. However, exposure to recruits can make a big difference and has the possibility of boosting their ability to recruit from California.

Money probably plays a role in their position (as does culture), but the majority of it is recruiting-related.

FreeRider covered the rest of the issue.

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jgkojak 2 years, 10 months ago

Maybe the Big 5 (KU, KSU, Iowa St, MU and Baylor) should bolt first.

Here is the thinking - say ENOUGH:

Call up the Big East. Say "we want to join as a group". That gives the Big East 15 football schools (since its highly likely WVU goes to SEC, then 14).

Then you have KS KSU, MU, ISU, Baylor, TCU, Louisville, Cinci, DePaul, Marquette (last two no football) for sure in our division, maybe Notre Dame bball until it finally joins the B10.

That's some great basketball, nice travel, we actually win some football games. If MU wants to go SEC, let 'em.

Then Texas, TTech, OU and OSU are pretty much screwed - especially Texas, because the balance of power would be with the Pac, who could demand all sorts of things from Texas now that they're homeless.

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FreeRider 2 years, 10 months ago

Just heard Chip Brown of orangebloods.com on Doug Gottlieb's radio show and he is starting to convince me that UT would go to the ACC before the Pac. UT would be better off in the Pac, but as a Pac enthusiast I've got to say I would find that to be a relief that we wouldn't have to deal with the high-maintenance Longhorns!

Question is: would the Pac stop at the 14 that is about to happen and chuck its partner school model that it loves to create two divisions of 7 or would it grab the only two desirable properties left in the Big 12 -- the furthest east it could go -- by adding KU and Mizzou?

Should be an interesting two to three weeks ahead!

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justinryman 2 years, 10 months ago

This all goes back to 1819 when Oklahoma left a newly formed conference after just four years, the Southwest Conference. Then they waited a few years and they went and got Oklahoma A&M(now OK st.) into the Missouri Valley/Big 6/Big 8.

Then it skips a few years, all the way to 1991 when Arkansas left the Southwest conference because them and Baylor were the only two teams not on probation. So they went to the SEC.

Then Texas joins the Big12 and a lot of schools bowed down to them and gave into everything they wanted, a Conference Title football game, moving that game to a permanent site. So all the while Missouri is saying they are leaving from their front porch, Nebraska and Colorado sneak out the back.

Now Texas A&M says it has had enough of Texas, but Baylor says they want more, more what? Money? Texas based schools in the conference? So while A&M went out on a limb, the whole time Oklahoma is chopping away at the trunk behind the bushes so they and OK st can leave too.

I guess it goes full circle, this is all Oklahoma's fault. Then again you can blame all the other schools for voting with Texas in almost everything giving Texas all the control in the conference, upsetting other powers ie. NU and OU.

Sure Texas brings a lot of TV sets, they have a very wide alumni base across the country, but they are a headache, they are the ones who believe they should get what they want and make false promises to schools like KU. They are the bully on Survivor, vote with me and I will take you along. And that has gotten the other schools into trouble now, with no place to go, well at least a place where the fans of those schools would be happy.

But lets face it, the Big 12 is over, it's done, if not today, then by next summer for sure.

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blindrabbit 2 years, 10 months ago

cajayfan: First time I've heard anything out of Ken Starr that I can agree with. After his sick repressed pursuit of Willy Clinton, I lump him with Rumsfeld, Cheney and McNamara! But Baylor is not beyond messing with it's Texas brothers, i.e. when the SWC disbanded leaving SMU, TCU, Rice and Houston in a pickle.

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rob4lb 2 years, 10 months ago

Matt- any word if there was realignment discussion at the Missouri Board of Curator's meeting last night?

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Bill Skeet 2 years, 10 months ago

For Texas, the most likely scenarios are quickly being reduced to three: 1) negotiate with OU now and save the Big 12, 2) negotiate with the PAC12 later as the Big 12 crumbles, 3) music stops without a chair-- go independent.

This is a Red-River-Rivalry game of chicken.

Oklahoma has to make the threat of cessation palpable in order to have any leverage for negotiation.

Texas is hoping it's a bluff. Their hubris is, well, Texas-sized.

Oklahoma needs help. I hope Big 12 fans get active and bring this dispute/dilemma to the public forum, soon.

Texas needs to hear a chorus of voices from across the conference asking them to stand down and accept Oklahoma's demand, which are most likely aimed at bringing "stability" (aka financial and power balance) and equality in revenue sharing.

Oklahoma most likely set the timeline knowing that it would take time for Texas to absorb the situation and get serious about negotiation. Otherwise, Texas would almost immediately dismiss the kind of ground-shifting changes that are required -- changes like moving the Big 12 offices out of Texas and dismantling of the LHN,

Texans probably still scoff at such notions. I hope they digest the situation soon and get into a mode of real negotiation soon. I hope.

But it's unlikely without some help. People behind the scenes of both institutions seem to be split.

I'm betting it will take some serious public pressure to preserve the Big 12 to get Texas officials to the table in a serious frame of mind.

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FreeRider 2 years, 10 months ago

"Oklahoma's demand, which are most likely aimed at bringing "stability" (aka financial and power balance) and equality in revenue sharing."

Why would OU want revenue sharing equality and a balance of power from the Big 12 when it, along with UT and A&M, already receive preferential revenue beyond the other schools and, in effect, control those schools? If OU wanted to remain in a Big 12, it would be in its interests to keep the unequal revenue model. This goes beyond wanting to keep the Big 12 together. OU wants stability elsewhere and a chance to improve its academic reputation by associating with the Pac schools. In that case, they are willing to be an equal partner. The same would not likely apply to the Big 12. It's like the partner that has walked out of the marriage and has no desire to come back — they're done!

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Eric Dawson 2 years, 10 months ago

OU doesn't want "equal revenue sharing" in the Big 12, it would lose $$$ in that paradigm. It is my understanding that in all "equal revenue sharing" votes in Big 12 history before start of the diaspora last year, all ERS votes were 8-4 in favor, with 9 needed for adoption. The 4 against? OU, NU, A&M and the Austin school. They were the ones getting all the TV air time and they wanted their money. These same schools, having naysayed the model that would lay the foundation for conference stability, have either left (NU and A&M) or are now looking elsewhere -- except, of course, the Austin school, because it's got the best $$$ deal of all. But the other 3 agreed to allow the Austin bullying, and are ticked that, thanks to their own stupidity/cowardice (take your pick), they let Austin situate itself to become the NY Yankees of the conference.

But I'll go even further back and cite a lack of leadership and vision in the original Big 8 membership, who actually had the upper hand (with a 6-2 vote for accepting new members on an equal basis) and, like a stupid car buyer who just had to have the (insert your dream vehicle here), gave the slick car salesman every thing the salesman wanted instead of realizing that the BUYER (i.e., the Big 8) had the upper hand because the SW Conference was dead on its feet! Dumb, dumb, dumb! And because of that lack of leadership in the mid1900s, today one of the best football conferences in the country is on its deathbed. It's gonna be murder on the KC economy, and -- depending on who lands where -- could be for murder for the "smaller" schools of the Big 12, too.

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Eric Dawson 2 years, 10 months ago

Makes that "mid1990s"! Need to get a new proofreader.

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rob4lb 2 years, 10 months ago

I think there are a couple of games of chicken. bskeet framed the one between OU and UT. The other, I believe, is between the Pac-12 and UT. The Pac-12 covets all the TV sets in Texas; UT covets the LHN. Who will blink first? Or will UT have to take its LHN to another conference or to independence,

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jgkojak 2 years, 10 months ago

I don't understand why the Big 5 don't shoot first. Is it better to be the masters of your own destiny?

Approach the BIG EAST, offer to create a new Super Conference with the 5 B12 refugees (15 football members, 22 basketball members).

Divide into two 11 team basketball divisions (home and home) - you only play the other division in the tourney.

So we would have: basketball only KU KSU MU ISU Baylor TCU Louisville Cinci Notre Dame DePaul Marquette

Not bad. In football, we play 8 games, maybe 1 game against an opponent from the other division.

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jayhawkinmullen 2 years, 10 months ago

He thought it was such a great idea and wondered why people were not praising his work with comments. So in his mind the only possible reason why people were not posting to his great mind bending scenario is because they some how missed it.

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rob4lb 2 years, 10 months ago

The US News College rankings came out. Not sure it says alot. It would be nice if KU were a little higher.

http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities/top-public

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Travis Clementsmith 2 years, 10 months ago

PAC won't stop at 14. In order to cut down on travel costs it has to take two more midwest schools. Also, it won't risk the last available valuable properties going to the east coast. So, if Texas makes its divorce final from OU, KU and MU get the call. If the PAC waits too long in that scenario, it risks MU joining the SEC or possibly the B1G getting antsy and grabbing MU (and possibly KU). Scott can't let the only other viable TV market (the Missouri markets) go if it doesn't get Texas. Otherwise he gets stuck with KU-KSU. No offense to the Wildcats, but doubling down in Kansas is worse than the fact they already have to duoble down in Oklahoma.

If Texas says no to the PAC, we're PAC bound. The only possibly "wrench" in this plan is Texas and the ACC. Texas has hinted they may be in some sort of pod setting which people assume is a proposed Texas,Tech, KU, MU or a Lne Star quartet of UT, Baylor, Tech and possibly Rice or Houston. But, what if Texas, almost in spite to OU and the PAC, proposes UT, MU, KU and KSU? That might be too difficult for the Kansas BOR to pass on if MU is good with it.

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blindrabbit 2 years, 10 months ago

My head is spinning, wake when it's over! Hopefully I'll be in the PAC-12.

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Kevin Randell 2 years, 10 months ago

Amen!!!!! I am done with it all!!!!....lol.

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FlintHawk 2 years, 10 months ago

@5:23 update. Like!! Love the Mac out front. Tom's tie is n.i.c.e You two not agreeing is priceless. But the too-loud buzzer stole the show....

Seriously, I like the use of video. It adds something to the funereal information flow.

Good job, Matt! (You too of course Keeg.)

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jayhawkinmullen 2 years, 10 months ago

Please please please no video of that fat slob. JK Tom Keegan is in great shape.

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Andy Tweedy 2 years, 10 months ago

The fact that two writers, both more well connected than myself, and both getting paid to scour the internet for information, cannot reach a consensus is just further proof of crazy this whole thing is. I find myself checking at least twice a day for information, and it seems to change about as often as I check. I wish I could just turn it off, and as blindrabbit says, wake up when it's over...but this stuff is like crack!!! Good job, Matt and Keegan, keep the updates coming!

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Randy Bombardier 2 years, 10 months ago

I would prefer the Big10, but if, if the Mt. West becomes AQ I think that could end up okay. I just have a hard time going all the way to the BigE. Would it really be better than Mt. West all things considered? Just really tired of the issue. How about we stay, collect exit fees and then go independent until we have a year where we finish in the top10 in football for a couple years running and win the NCAA BB tourney. I also think that the mega-conferences are going to implode after a decade or so.

OU and USC in the same conference? What is the world coming to? God help us. This is totally absurd.

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Justin Lindsley 2 years, 10 months ago

Matt, You said it. This is crazy. It's also sad. I thought the Big 12 was going to make it until today. now I'm starting to think it is going to end. I just hope KU lands on its feet in a conference that wants them and also that works out well for the Jayhawk Nation.

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Eric Dawson 2 years, 10 months ago

I'll be the dissenting voice with a "thumbs down" for the video -- unless you also provide text of the conversation so those of us with hearing issues can do a better job of following the discussion.

Even then, I don't think Tom is needed here, you've done a great job of covering all the bases, Matt. Tom has his own forum for putting his opinions out there. You've done a great job of reporting here, don't let him horn in on your action just because you are racking up the hits with your blog.

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mikehawk 2 years, 10 months ago

This is much more exciting than the actual sporting competition. Conference Wars! Is it possible Texas is becoming radioactive and no one wants to deal with their alleged crap? They may end up independent. Either way, Oklahoma is gone and while they hate it, OSU has to go along for the ride. Boren doesn't fool around. It is possible he is leveraging with Texas, but I doubt it. He may have offered a new deal, but if Texas turned it down, he will make the moves. For the PAC, no Texas, no TTU, which makes no sense to me anyway. Most likely, KU has to be willing to walk away from KSU to have the option for the best deal that comes our way. For me, that is sad, but the way it probably has to be. I still think KU and MU to the Big Ten is a possibility. So much depends on the length and strength of the legs of the "Four Super Conferences" theory. If the Big East and ACC believe that is where we are going, they may be fighting to make offers to position themselves to be one of the four. We could have those two conferences fighting over us and MU to get at the St. Louis/KC markets and to survive what will likely be another round of poaching. Like I say, who cares any more about the games when you have all out Conference Wars!

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Nick Cole 2 years, 10 months ago

I would love to go with Texas to the ACC. Bring MU with us and poach a Big east School (West Virginia?) to make it 16 and we're all set. Sounds like a pretty good conference to me.

Any thoughts on this Matt?

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rob4lb 2 years, 10 months ago

I found the latest updates a little depressing. I don't know why we would tie ourselves to Texas and we better not take a lesser offer so we can stay with K-State. I will also be very disappointed if we separate from MU.

I stated this earlier, the ACC will NOT be good for KU basketball. Obviously, this is all speculation. But the fact that UT is so tied to the LHN that it is trying to work out something with a conference they have nothing in common with should be a huge red flag that we need to get away from them.

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oldalum 2 years, 10 months ago

I thought the ONLY good thing about going anywhere would be that we were rid of Texas. The thought of following them to the ACC is not a good one to me. And if this is football-driven, I never thought of the ACC as a football conference.

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utahjayhawk 2 years, 10 months ago

Completely agree!!!! I leave this blog for 8 hrs and the lead option is us going to the ACC with Texas!! This is absolutely the wrong path for many obvious reasons (comp in bball, no fball presence, still stuck to egomaniac TX, another weak conf about to be poached). This sounds like the Big XII all over again!

Matt, why is this so attractive for us?

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thehavok 2 years, 10 months ago

HAHA! love the 60 sec video updates. Keep em coming. thanks for the updates!

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Hank Cross 2 years, 10 months ago

Re 6:16 update - Great news! As some of us have been posting all day, UT to the ACC really opens it up for KU. Here are the reasons why UT to the ACC could cause KU to have its pick of conferences.

Lock: BE - If UT goes to the ACC, the BE will be fighting for its life and immediately admit KU

Highly Likely: P12 - Quite simply, w/o UT, the P12 has no where else to go Except KU and MU. Scott is not going to be left with a 14 team conference conference. KU and MU with the OK schools in the P12 also stake a claim on neighboring B1G, SEC, ACC (UT) and BE markets.

Maybe: ACC - UT and TT want a Midwesten "pod" They could try for TCU and another TX team, but KU and MU are more attractive.

Maybe, just maybe: B1G - I could see this materialize if ND gets the heebie jeebies and fears its 0-2 FB program might not have the luster they think it does. Under this scenario, KU and MU go in with ND and Pitt. The B1G weren't that into Syracuse and Rutgers last year for reasons that haven't changed. And with the ACC solid, there wouldn't be anything else more attractive than KU/MU.

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Randy Bombardier 2 years, 10 months ago

ESPN just ranked BIG12 as No. 2 football conference. How can this happen? Incredible. Oh well, my Q. for someone who knows, which Conference in the East is more prestigious academically, ACC or BigE?

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Randy Bombardier 2 years, 10 months ago

Never mind, Duke, Virginia, yeah. Never gave those conferences much thought because of distance. ACC would be better by far.

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cajayfan 2 years, 10 months ago

You guys have got to read the comments after Ken Starr's OpEd piece. The hatred from the A&M fans is amazing. Ok, I was mad at Nebraska, never rooting for them again and then the Big 12 worked everything out and then A&M happened, so they are on my "boo" list and next maybe OKU and OKState. But, this hatred level is too much. A&M reminds me of the 40year old guy who leaves his wife and kids for a young hottie and then gets pissed cause she is mad and wants to get all the money she can out of him. Whatever the purpose of Baylor's suit, I am grateful it bought the rest of the Big 12 some time. If it didn't have any merit, do you think all the Commssioners would have stopped raiding everybody? So, stay cool KU fans whatever happens. Just out of curiousity are Bill's kids still in highschool? Or even better are they enrolled at KU? Please don't tell me either are at Oklahoma State. http://www.chron.com/opinion/outlook/article/Consider-costs-of-ending-Big-12-Ken-Starr-2167252.php

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Andy Tweedy 2 years, 10 months ago

Bill Self talked at an Alumni deal I was at a couple years ago, and I know one of his daughters is at KU. I have NO idea about the other daughter.

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Travis Clementsmith 2 years, 10 months ago

I think the MU-KU Alliance is actually quite valuable right now with the A&M, UT and OU apparently going different ways. Here are the benefits of an ACC venture with Texas:

  1. Get to keep the Texas recruiting pipeline. If we're ever going to be a player in football, this is very important. If we have to try and establish brand new lines, it will set us back.

  2. Only two time zones to worry about. Personally, I think its harder on athletes to adjust going east than it is to the west, but the exposure and time zones are more friendly.

  3. New recruiting grounds. With FSU and Miami, Florida could be a new source of recruits for us. Its no secret the big three football recruiting grounds are texas, California and Florida.

  4. Basketball will be great, of course.

  5. Enough top teams to guarantee an AQ status as well as hefty conference payout. Texas, FSU, Miami among the dominants. Missouri, GTech, Clemson, NC State and Maryland are all decent programs.

  6. Hopefully, Texas has learned some lessons and won't be as overbearing as they were in the Big XII. Although, I wouldn't bet my house on it.

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Nick Cole 2 years, 10 months ago

My thoughts exactly. Would much rather be playing on the east coast than the west coast. After traveling from east to west then back east for work (I life in FL), I feel it's much better to go from east to west, but the time zone factor is huge. And the ACC could basically be like the B1G of the south. Sounds pretty good to me.

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texashawk10 2 years, 10 months ago

Keep in mind that the SEC will likely go to at least 14 schools as well and that an ACC team like an NC State or VT could be that team which means the ACC would need to add at least 5 teams if the SEC poaches an ACC team.

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Travis Clementsmith 2 years, 10 months ago

Not if Texas comes to the conference. Texas immediately provides the value to the conference to make it one of the big players on the conference front. ACC will renegotiate a new deal as a 16 team conference and it will make as much or more than the SEC if the SEC stays at 14.

Its actually a huge preemptive move by the ACC. Not only do they protect their valuable members, they take away two possible targets in Texas and Missouri. That means they would have to go Big East raiding, and I don't know if there is enough value in any Big East school to get them a bigger payout even with 16 teams. The same, maybe, but not bigger.

This is where basketball would actually benefit the conference. Because the ACC basketball is already seen as a valuable commodity to ESPN, and it would actually get more valuable if this del went through, the total conference payout could be bigger than the SEC. So why would an SEC go to a tougher conference slate with a lesser payout? Remember, the ACC was formed around the idea of promoting a higher educational platform than the SEC. If you get the money and the academic prestige, why do you leave and drop one of them?

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Travis Clementsmith 2 years, 10 months ago

Oops, I forgot to include VTech in the dominant football programs!

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Andy Tweedy 2 years, 10 months ago

Matt, Isn't it really going to come down to cash? I guess it's always seemed to me that if there was a choice between the PAC and ACC, the PAC would be more lucrative. Am I wrong?

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Andy Tweedy 2 years, 10 months ago

I should say Big East, ACC or PAC...

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Travis Clementsmith 2 years, 10 months ago

Not necessarily wrong. The PAC has the payouts going for it with their creative regional networks. But, with the Big XII contract essentially dissolved, most of that money would go to the 16 team ACC, which would now be loaded with teams in both major revenue sports. The first and second tier deals could be through the roof. This is why everyone is leery of but still wants Texas. Texas gives that conference enough football heavyweights (once Miami gets through their penalty phase) to be a "big boy". Add in the basketball, and it is absolutely astounding. It may not garner the big third tier market the PAC has, but it will be plenty, and it will be on the right side of the Rockies for national exposure.

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utahjayhawk 2 years, 10 months ago

There are a lot of reasons why all potential options make sense for KU.

The bottom line is do you trust Texas? I certainly don't.

The ACC is attractive to them because they feel they can muscle weaker members in a conf that doesn't have the overall cultural unity and vision that the PAC and B1G conferences do.

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texashawk10 2 years, 10 months ago

Hey Matt,

Do you have any idea who the SEC would target as a 14th member? If their goal is to add TV sets, that would lead me to believe they would add either NC State or Missouri, but they've also said no more Big 12 schools which would leave NC State. I know WVU and Va Tech have been popular choices among fans as well, but those only make sense if TV sets don't matter. I was just wondering if you could shed any light on this or have you not heard anything credible about who the 14th team could be. Thanks for all of the hard work you've been doing for the past couple of weeks on this issue, you're a great journalist.

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Randy Bombardier 2 years, 10 months ago

This is going to get even more ugly before it gets better. Florida State is going to challenge this one school per state policy. GaTech will follow suit. They will probably win this one so there are two logical adds right there. Would love to see Texas go that way. If that is what happens I don't see Missouri getting the invite. MU and KU are so similar I see them as a package add to the Big10. IIt is the best deal for the conference and the best matchup for the schools. They are pretty smart up there in Big10 country. They know that the East area around Maryland Rutgers is owned by the NFL. KC and St. Louis markets, contiguous territory, Midwest roots, sister schools to NU, flagship state universities, AAU membership. KU and MU are going to the Big. I don't see anything on the horizon to jeopardize that except for staying with the sinking ship.

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texashawk10 2 years, 10 months ago

Why would the Big 10 add two schools that would only lower the per school payout of the BTN? The Big 10 does not expand again until Notre Dame realizes they have to join a conference which significantly raises the value of the BTN. Maryland also makes a lot more sense than KU or MU does for the Big 10. Maryland adds DC and Baltimore and is a better academic school than KU or MU. Actual viewership numbers of the BTN don't matter as long as people subscribe a sports package which includes the BTN which makes the BTN money. The only people that care about viewership are the advertisers. The chance of KU and MU ending up in the Big 10 is lower than KU and MU staying in the Big 12.

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Kevin Randell 2 years, 10 months ago

An ACC invite is not out of the question. I was looking at the lesser conferences today. For example Conference USA they stretch as far as El Paso Texas to Orlando Florida. So if they can do it with a lot less money than we have....why can't we? I would rather be a part of the ACC than the Big East.

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Travis Clementsmith 2 years, 10 months ago

Who is going to challenge who? A single institution is going to challenge the SEC? Good luck with that. FSU and GTech won't want to leave the ACC if Texas comes, it is that simple. Texas makes any conference it is in a major conference. As long as the ACC sets it up correctly, it could be wildly successful. This isn't like the expanded Big East. The ACC has deep roots already, Texas with KU and MU make the ACC the fourth "big" in the conference game.

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FLJHK 2 years, 10 months ago

Completely random thoughts of no particular merit.

  1. I've followed this intently for a couple of weeks now. I posted frequently early on, but not now. Like everyone else, I have no idea how this all turns out. But it certainly now seems it ain't gonna happen quickly, and Matt, bless his heart, should be released from his massive overtime duties, with all of our sincere thanks.

  2. I LOVED the old Big 8. I was more than OK with the 12-team Big 12. No matter how this all turns out, traditional and georgraphic rivalries will have been sacrificed. And for what? I find the whole situation very sad indeed.

  3. Only the Big 10 is a desirable landing spot for KU, and there is less than a remote chance of that happening. I will likely always resent NU for going there without at least their KU and MU brethren, but on the other hand I can hardly blame them. Academically and historically they are indistinguishable from KU and MU; I find it sick that they got that invite simply because of a strong football tradition.

  4. There are very positive aspects to KU's possible inclusion in the PAC, or less likely, the ACC. But there will always be something awkward about membership in a conference with "Pacific" or "Atlantic" in its name.

  5. I LOVE KU. It is difficult and frustrating that KU's brand and the amazing passion of its base is not better appreciated across the country. No matter the outcome of all of this, my loyalty and passion will never diminish. But due to the criteria important in the conference realignment game (television markets and football revenue), I'm not convinced that KU will end up in a desirable situation.

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nuleafjhawk 2 years, 10 months ago

I haven't really been too wrapped up in all the conference "sky is falling" talk, because I don't normally get too excited about things that I have no control over.

If we want to stop the demise of the Big 12, I say all of us should band together, form our own dodgeball team and head out to Las Vegas. We could hire Patches O'Houlihan as our coach and win enough money to SAVE the conference!! Go team. Go team go.

BUT - if the sky does fall and crushes what's left of the Big 12 - I would dearly love to go to the ACC. How much fun would it be to kick the tar-heels out of NC and be-devil the blue devils every year? And we'd probably have good luck against them in football most of the time also.

Maybe, since none of us can really do anything we should just sit back and Ride the Storm Out.

Riding the storm out Waiting for the fallout On a full moon night in the Rocky Mountain winter Wine bottle's low Watching for the snow I've been thinking about what I've been missing in the city

And I'm not missing a thing Watching the full moon crossing the range Riding the storm out Riding the storm out Riding the storm out Riding the storm out

Lady beside me She's there to guide me She says that alone we've finally found home The wind outside is frightening But it's kinder that the lightning life of the city It's a hard life to live but it gives back what you give

And I'm not missing a thing Watching the full moon crossing the range Riding the storm out Riding the storm out Riding the storm out Riding the storm out

REO Speedwagon - 1973

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AZHawk72 2 years, 10 months ago

The SEC seems fairly set on "new states," so they're not interested in the redundancy provided by Miami, Florida-State, Clemson, or Texas. Now, after grabbing A&M, they will probably try for West Virginia (zippo TV market with more "hollers" than population), which would cost the Big 10 its most logical expansion target. Then, I'd bet on one of the Virginia schools to balance the acquisition of the inevitable Missouri for the west side of the ledger. Of course, in killing off all rivalries on both fronts, we can expect that their TV ratings will drop as quickly as NASCAR's have recently.

At some point in the future we can only hope that fans wake-up and realize that more is not better. College football ratings are headed for a mind-numbing tumble, which will enable the NFL to enjoy even higher ratings and laugh aloud at this entire scenario.

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texashawk10 2 years, 10 months ago

If the SEC wants to add new TV sets in a new area, NC State is going to be their target. Raleigh-Durham is the largest media market in the region the SEC doesn't have a foothold in already.

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DevilHawk 2 years, 10 months ago

Miami, Florida State, and UT all have major national followings.

They could look to improve their basketball, but the culture of the SEC is heavily focused on football.

My guess is that Georgia Tech and VaTech are the teams that the SEC would be most likely to want from the ACC, because the schools add good football programs and solid basketball.

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jgkojak 2 years, 10 months ago

Actually, being in the Big East would not hurt our basketball at all. And how fun would it be to actually back up our "Big East sucks" with going in and going 18-0 (or however many games you have to play) and winning the conf. tourney every year.

Also would be easier to win games in football.

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Hank Cross 2 years, 10 months ago

No way KU rolls the BE. The BE isn't overrated like the B12. In the years of existence, 5 different BE schools have won a total of 7 NCs. During that same time period, the B8/B12 has produced only one school that won the NC and did it twice.

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nuleafjhawk 2 years, 10 months ago

Seriously guys? The BE isn't overrated? They had, what - 60 teams in the tournament last year and 56 of them were out after the first weekend. (Slight exaggeration - very slight though)

The Big East is a KU Basketball fan's fantasy. Our record there would be even more glitzy than it's been the last 113 years. (Is glitzy a word?)

You want to know why the BE has fared so well? Key in on that " E " letter. It's EAST - they've got a bajillion people and the media. Any media west of New Jersey isn't even real. Don't think for a second that the media doesn't influence the referees.

I have to agree with jgkojak's assesment regarding football also. There's a lot of winnable games there.

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nuleafjhawk 2 years, 10 months ago

sounds like someone has a crush on Eko-Cat

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pepper_bar 2 years, 10 months ago

Reminder: KU had a football program, but they fired its architect for being an obese meanie.

Props to Tait for these daily update posts. I'm really enjoying reading them, and I appreciate the hard work.

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Randy Bombardier 2 years, 10 months ago

KU has never had a prolonged stretch where they were over 500 for more than a a few years. We have never even strung together two 9-win years. We have never had a streak like MU is enjoying now and KSU enjoyed for about a 10-year span. No KU coach, none, never, ever have done that at KU. Even the great MM who was 4-20 against teams from the Big12 South could get us to that high and lofty plateau of .600 for a sustained period of time.

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bville_hawk 2 years, 10 months ago

I wonder how long it's going to be before some conference dumps a weak member to make room for new 'power school.' For example, the Big 10 tells Indiana they have to go because Notre Dame is coming in. Or the PAC lets Colorado go to make room for Texas. It's bound to happen...

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Jayhawk1963 2 years, 10 months ago

I can't believe your "sources" would prefer a bid to the ACC (with the cancer Texas) or to the BE over an invite to the Pac12. To my mind, the Pac12 would be a much better fit for KU both athletically and academically. The Pac12 is much more prestigious to other BCS conferences (except for the Big10) in terms of academics and research. Furthermore, athletically, KU would still be with OU and CU, plus, presumably, OSU and possibly MU or KSU. This would be much more preferable to having to compete in basketball in the ACC or BE !!! Bill Self wouldn't be winning 4 or 5 league titles in a row in those conferences ! Football, however, would probably be more or less a tossup between the Pac12 and the ACC but better than the BE. If the Jayhawks are lucky enough to receive in invitation to the Pac12, PLEASE, KU administrators, jump on it !! Your fortunes will be much better tied to OU rather than toxic Texas.

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