patton6 (anonymous) says...

Are you serious, Clark?

Ignoring for a minute the fact that Pierce was the team leader on an injured team that amazingly won 60 games, I simply can't let you rank Ben Gordon ahead of him. Come on now, the guy does one thing well. He really is a great scorer and can be a late-game killer, but to rank him ahead of Pierce makes little to no sense whatsoever.

Worth noting - Though Pierce was great all year, I would agree that he seems a bit off so far this post-season (though I'm not sure it's even possible to over-restimate the impact of replacing Kevin Garnett with Big Baby Davis) - so I don't completely disagree with the general sentiment of this piece. The Ben Gordon thing is just ridiculous though.

April 28, 2009 at 10:56 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

matt_tait (Matt Tait) says...

Glad you got the gist.... the reason I said I'd take Gordon was because of the "at this stage in the game" provision.

Gordon's much younger than Pierce and a stone-cold scorer. He could improve his defense, no doubt, but it seems like he can get a bucket - any kind - any time he wants to.

April 28, 2009 at 11:03 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

plasticJHawk (anonymous) says...

I had both Pierce and Gordon on my Fantasy Basketball team all season long. And at least statistically Gordon definitely had the better year. I might have taken him out of my starting lineup 1 or 2 weeks.

Pierce is definitely the leader of the Celtics team with or without KG, and he was huge last year in the postseason, but give credit to his teammates, without KG and Ray Allen he was never in the MVP discussion. You have to consider that Pierce does have the killer instinct, the competitive drive, and the trophy to prove that he belongs in the top tier of NBA Talent.

I probably don't yet place Rose, Gordon, Roy, and Deron ahead of Paul Pierce, and "at this stage of the game" it's hard to place Garnett above Pierce.

April 28, 2009 at 11:16 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

matt_tait (Matt Tait) says...

Great point about KG.... They're kind of in the same boat. I merely put him above Pierce because of the incredible impact not having him has had on the Celtics. Of course, had it been Pierce that went down and not KG, things could've been the same.

As for the others, I can see the hesitation with Gordon and Rose (for now), but I think Roy and D. Williams are easily ahead of him.

Roy's a Top 5 talent, if you ask me. Just unbelievable and getting better. And Williams is one heck of a true PG who can also score when needed.

It's a great list and either way, Pierce is still elite -- Top 10-15, no doubt.

April 28, 2009 at 11:35 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

d_prowess (anonymous) says...

I think the Celtics are a really good example of how great a team can be when everyone plays their role and how average the same team can be when just one of those pieces goes missing. Obviously Pierce, Allen, and KG are not your average pieces, but without KG teams can approach Boston in a whole different manner defensively that gives them a shot to win (which is focus on Pierce and make everyone else beat them).
I always felt the NBA (not Boston fans) loved to make KG the face of that team last year, but it has always been Pierce that has been that steady force there. Not only can he get going with his jump shot, he has a great ability to make it to the rim and score or draw fouls (despite looking crazy slow when doing it!). That ability is severely underrated and is what sets him apart from someone like Allen who has one of the best shots in all of the game.
All that said, I do think Pierce is on his way down. His body looks tired out on the court and I think he knows this team, without KG, can't challenge for a title. I have to assume that is discouraging, especially if you are a competitor.

April 28, 2009 at 11:49 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

ChicagoJHawk (anonymous) says...

No way Ben Gordon is better than Paul Pierce. Unless you just started watching both players this playoff series... In that case, yes, I would think Ben Gordon is better.

Kevin Durant and Derrick Rose are not better than Paul Pierce either. Rose is doing a great job as a rookie but he's not even close to being on Paul Pierce's level.

April 28, 2009 at 11:51 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

bg97 (anonymous) says...

PP is a Hall of Famer. Ben Gordan is another one dimensional scorer who has yet to leave his mark on any team. Why do you think he's been stuck with the Bulls all these years? No one else ever wants his overpriced contract for so little in return.

April 28, 2009 at 12:14 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

KWufan (anonymous) says...

I was wondering what was wrong with double P myself, good talk. Bad ratings though, you can't compare him with point guards and centers in your better than discussion. Here's an interesting thought, maybe since he now has one championship there just isnt't the same amount of urgency to his play so far this yr. How many times have teams that were suppossed to have a realistic shot to repeat not do it, hunger, it's easier on the mind and body to hunt than to be the hunted. Maybe he has a nagging injury nobody knows about. Seems Josh Salmans has P's game figured out mostly is the reason. He hasn't gone for the pump fake jumper, blocked quite a few of those automatic 17 footers. I think it's just a bad match-up for him against Salmans. And Doc Rivers is part of it as well. It's been reported that he want's Rondo to burn rubber up the court to get some easy baskets, that's not Paul's game. He's a halfcourt master who's simply being defended very well right now by a younger and hungrier team. One other thing about the player rankings, who of those guys would you pick if you wanted to WIN a game, not just put up sick stats? Half of them are off the list, maybe only 5 are left ahead. Good discussion though, I hate to see Paul not up to his usual standards, it's been frustrating!!

April 28, 2009 at 12:19 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

cmku10 (anonymous) says...

This has got to be the worst garbage I've read on kusports.com. I guess its okay to let this crap be published because its in the 'blog' section, but a site such as this should demand better content.

April 28, 2009 at 12:21 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

KWufan (anonymous) says...

Hah, sorry, cmku10. If it's not a Keegan opinion then it's not garbage, have to disagree with you on that one

April 28, 2009 at 12:23 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

4mertiger (anonymous) says...

That's the same Paul Pierce we saw MANY times as a Jayhawk. He tunes out - sometimes for whole games. How many times did we see Roy furious on the sidelines yelling, "PAUL!! DO something!!" BUT you're forgetting who's been guarding him in this series - one Kirk Hinrich, Defender Par Excellance. Capt. Kirk has more than a passing familiarity with dear Mr. Pierce, too - something about going back to Allen Field House...

Put the two factors together, and Pierce's series thus far is no surprise.

Go, Kirk!

April 28, 2009 at 12:59 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

matt_tait (Matt Tait) says...

KWufan...

That's a great question about who I'd want to win a game and how that would narrow that list. Quite a bit, really. And I do think Pierce would be on there.

Kobe, LeBron, B. Roy and D. Williams might be the only guys I put ahead of him in that debate.

You also bring up good points about Salmons' defense and Doc Rivers' coaching. There are a ton of factors.

Look, I love Pierce, always have and always will... It just seems so weird to me to see him go from the Greek God he was in last year's playoffs to a slow, frustrated, aging player one year later.

The injury point is also valid. He could be banged up. And if he is, more power to him for playing through it and doing well.

April 28, 2009 at 1:02 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

matt_tait (Matt Tait) says...

4mertiger -

Hinrich, when he's been on him, has done an excellent job of guarding Pierce in this one... Surprisingly good given the size difference.

Hinrich really has been fantastic all series. He seems completely comfortable with his role, plays all-out when he's in there and is a smart, steady influence on a team with two wild child players like Gordon and Rose.

It's nice to know that one way or the other, the winner of the series will be taking a former Jayhawk to the next round.

April 28, 2009 at 1:06 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

beemer (anonymous) says...

How many Celtics games have you watched this season? From the looks of this blog posting, maybe about ten at the most.

Paul is tired. There's no question about it. Bill Simmons sums it up perfectly in his recent column (http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/... - Part 12).

This article is pretty uninspired and really comes off as uninformed.

April 28, 2009 at 1:09 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

mvjayhawk (anonymous) says...

Paul has had a great career...and is still a very good player. i don't think he looks any less passionate...he's missed two free throws in the last 30 seconds of two games this series....and it would have clinched both losses as Celtics wins...and the series is over.

as usual, and throughout his career, Pierce is not good enough to totally carry his team. Like say Kobe and Dwayne Wade can. but he is plenty good to carry his team in stretches during games. and without Garnett and Powe, Boston is totally limited on the options Paul has as he dribble drives. the paint is very crowded. and he's scoring 20 plus.

The Celtics just need to survive this series...and we'll see what happens. Paul's legacy is not tainted at all from these last few games. BTW, the Bulls ain't bad.

April 28, 2009 at 1:10 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

waywardJay (anonymous) says...

OK. Timeout. What are we forgetting here.

Paul Pierce played in 1 less regular season game than kobe 81-82.
Paul Pierce plays consistantly more on the defensive end of the court than Kobe.
Paul Pierce had the luxury of playing more games in last years playoffs, and I would imagine they played the same amounts of games in regular season.

Let's not confuse this. Paul Pierce is the same player, he's just tired.

Playoff Basketball can be a great rejuvenator, One could argue Paul is arguably more healthy this year, than in last years run. But let's look at the factors.

No Garnett. No Powe. Rando's banged up. The celtics aren't destined this year, they are waiting to be outlasted.

I think Pierce knows this. I still think Boston is the best team when they are healthy, but they are not... and they are really missing out on not drafting Mario right now.

April 28, 2009 at 1:31 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

matt_tait (Matt Tait) says...

Goody summary, waywardJay.....

Remember, I in no way, shape or form wrote this as a knock on Pierce. He's a warrior. He's earned the right to be called one of the great Celtics of all-time and he's clearly going to fight with all he's got every time he steps out there.

It's just that all he's got this year - compared with last - is not as much.

Quick question, though... when did Leon Powe become a star in this league? You guys have thrown his name out there like it's a big loss. Did it hurt in terms of number of bodies the Celts can throw on the floor? Sure. But does his presence win or lose games? I don't think so.

Quick question No. 2.... So who's going to win this series?

April 28, 2009 at 1:37 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

waywardJay (anonymous) says...

Kobe v. Paul is not a fair comparison. Kobe is a great one way player. Paul plays both ways.

Had Kobe gone to college, he might have learned to play defense at a professional level, but he did not.

You want to compare them side by side... Kobe is always going to get higher stats, but Paul is going to make more plays.....

Pierce averages 1-2 assists more a game than Kobe does, and does not force as many shots as Kobe does.

As far as a team play standpoint goes, Its not even close.

Paul make players around him better.
Kobe throws people under the bus.

What it comes down to is this, would you rather have a 1 way selfish player who can hang 81 on a team.... Or would you rather have a guy hover in the 20-30's who can win you a finals series on Defense......

I take the latter everyday of the week and 5 times on sunday

April 28, 2009 at 1:38 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

waywardJay (anonymous) says...

OK here's the deal with Leon Powe.

Leon Powe is a solid number 2 guy who can blow up for big games and surprise people..... he's also another body who can give BBD a break inside and out..... Powe's also a glue guy for this team.... he comes in , he keeps the chemistry alive....

In a Jayhawk Comparison, take Darrell Arthur ( garnett ) out of the equation and then take out Sasha Kaun or Darnell..... and your post game gets infinte slimmer..... makes it harder for someone like a pierce or a ray allen to get open looks from three....

Also eddie house is a big loss also because that's another shooter than stretches the court....

Leon Powe is not a sum of his immediate impact... he's an all around player... that is sorely sorely missed on both ends of the court.

question 2.

Celtics.... eventually..... probably take all 7 to do it.... and it might be because ray and paul will not go down that way..... I am reminded of the end scene of gladiator when Maximus manages to slay Cladius... poisoned and wounded...... just to die on the Collesuem floor afterwards.

April 28, 2009 at 1:44 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

matt_tait (Matt Tait) says...

I think you're missing the boat a little on Kobe.... Not in terms of how you compared him with Pierce. That was spot on. But in terms of who he is as a player.

Remember... This is a guy the critics said would never win a title without Shaq. Well, he got them to the Finals last year (by making his teammates better, no?) and he's in line to make another run this year.

Kobe's biggest strength is his offense. And he forces shots and turns the ball over with the best of them. But that's part of the game plan in LA. They're not interested in him taking care of the ball and putting up an efficient number of shots. In order for the Lakers to be good - and to win - Kobe has to get his. So they let him.

Now, I'm not sure where this notion that Kobe doesn't play defense comes from. He's been named to the NBA's first-team all defense squad six times in his career and to the second time two more times. The man can defend.

I'd take Kobe offensively and defensively. The only area I think Pierce stacks up is competitiveness (and shooting)... Kobe is the most intense and cold-blooded competitor the league has seen since Jordan. But I think Pierce might be second.

April 28, 2009 at 1:47 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

matt_tait (Matt Tait) says...

Wow. Love the Gladiator reference.

And the Sasha/Powe analogy was pretty good, too. Thanks for adding to this blog, waywardJay...

Remember, these blogs are never intended to take shots at people, just one man's opinion thrown out there to stir up a little conversation and some healthy debates.

Carry on.

April 28, 2009 at 1:49 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

patton6 (anonymous) says...

Matt - Agree to disagree, I guess...let's just say you have a lot more faith in Gordon than I do. He's five years younger than Paul and coming into what should be his prime, but he's yet to show that he's even a better scorer. And considering that he does absolutely nothing else at even an average NBA level, no matter what stage of the game, I'm taking Paul.

Others - Do you guys really not think Kobe plays defense? Kobe has his faults (selfishness, lack of care for teammates) and I like him less than just about every other NBA star, but he's not a one side of the court player. I'll defend Paul all day, but even if you think he's a better defender than Kobe (questionable), it's not because Kobe only plays offense. He too often guards the opposing team's best perimeter scorer.

April 28, 2009 at 1:53 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

matt_tait (Matt Tait) says...

Sounds good, patton6.

Ask me before this series starts and I probably don't take Gordon. So I may be a little skewed by that. And I may be wrong. But I do think Gordon has a chance to become a special player. Right now, though, I do agree that he's merely a real good offensive player and little else.

As for your Kobe point, I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees that.

April 28, 2009 at 1:57 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

KWufan (anonymous) says...

I almost forgot about Captain Kirk guarding Paul some this series and his D has surprised me. Just reinforces the fact that Kirk is as tough as they come. Wayward, don't say that KOBE is a one way player, he will find this article and play D now, I don't want to see him win it so he can gloat, lol!! And yes, Losing Leon POW, ha ha, does hurt some, he's tough on D also, takes alot of charges. I hate the fact PP has looked average this series too Tait, it's been killing me to watch. Been expecting to see him take over the I see Kirk strip him on drives and Salmons block his jumper, it's just been weird. That said, Boston in 7 and don't forget resiliancy(hope I spelled that right) of a championship team or the fact they have battle tested game 7's under their belt. OH, and also about POWE I think he got some props in the recent SI article about the charge/block calls in the game, from his peers in the NBA. At least I think that's what I read!!

April 28, 2009 at 1:58 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

beemer (anonymous) says...

Powe is a really solid defender - a big, strong body that fills the lane and contests and changes shots.

On top of that, his offense has been steadily improving ever since the playoffs last year, where his confidence really blossomed. He's a more physical and more polished Big Baby, and especially with KG out his loss is huge for the Celts.

- on Gordon : he's an excellent scorer, a streaky shooter (so when hot, extremely dangerous), but overall is not in Paul's class as a player - especially when considering age.

- on the series result : The Celtics should (and I believe, will) win. As someone pointed out, without two huge missed FTs (ironically, both by Pierce), the Celtics have already swept. (Add into that the huge NON foul of Gordon at the end of OT - huge mistake in strategy by Doc Rivers).

April 28, 2009 at 2:07 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

waywardJay (anonymous) says...

Yes, he has been all-nba defensive player...... and i think that is a testament to the defense that is played in the NBA..... Very few teams do it, and do it well.... Most pay lip service to it.....

Look we are in a prime example of the state of defense and how it means to teams and championships....

5-6 years ago.... You couldn't have convinced me we played bad defense ...we were holding teams to sub .40 shooting..and we were winning 22-25 games a year under roy..... ( this is similiar to the Laker's defense in this regard )

then we get self to come in and knock 5-10 percent off that.... and we win championship ( and headed for more to come ) ( this is the celtics defense )

The NBA walks the ball up.... does not go after it with authority all the time.... and likes to see the scores in 100's because that brings in fans...... no one wants to see a 30-40 point games... ask big 10 fans about that......

but because Kobe is a all defensive team memeber in the NBA does not a good defender make.

tell me why Mario chalmers had 9 steals in a game earlier this season and set the record for rookies...... because he went to a school that teaches defense.... Kobe will never have that.... and thusly.... he will never be a complete or elite defender.....

NOr are any of his team mates elite defenders behind him to light a fire under kobe's butt.... They are the same soft team they were last year, and they will eventually lose to cleveland because cleveland learned how to play team defense from boston.

It's not Kobe Bashing... it's just honestly what i see watching the Lakers..... Last year, Kobe was throwing guys under the bus when the ship started sinking ( odom and vujacic ).... He would bark at teammates to play better, he would snivel and smirk and sneer the whole time he was forcing up jumpers that were not going..... And yes, that is how they win..... and Kobe's a decent teammate when they win.... But the second it gets tough... he will fold and go back to doing exactly what got him this negative wrap as a teammate....

I'm reminded of the Nike Commercial for Kobe where he talked about his stats, and his rings, and how the world was out to get him ( ironically right before the whole denver thing blew up in his face ) and he's that same guy.....

You want him as a teammate because you never know when he is going to score 100.
But you don't want him on your team because you can't rely on to lead him when stuff gets tight.

final thought. I have long believed he will never win a title without shaq, and i still believe that to this day. Sad for such and amazing talent, when you don't embrace your teammates..... You end up a great player with no HoF credentials otherwise.

April 28, 2009 at 2:14 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

KWufan (anonymous) says...

Beemer, of course we've only seen about 10 Boston games this yr, we live in the midwest, therefore we are going to see more of the Midwest teams play in our area on TV. Look , I've been a Celtics fan since birth, even when they sucked in the 90's. Trust me, if they are on TV, I'm watching it!! Paul will come back next round and prove he's the man, everyone can be a little off now and then. Also I think somebody said the Bulls were pretty good, and he's right, they are. Very tough young dudes, playing extremely hard. I don't like Kobe bashing, he's not my fav player, but the man is a Jordan clone in his will to work at being a winner. You say he can't do it, then he goes apes**t and ups his game to prove you wrong. I don't think his TEAM has the toughness to help him enough, Pau is okay but mentally frail, Sasha Va-WHO-sic off the bench? Okay, not going to turn this discussion around to Laker hating, but even though I don't care for him, you can't rip on Kobe, dude is amazing.

April 28, 2009 at 2:19 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

KWufan (anonymous) says...

Wayward, really good stuff I just read your last post, and I agree very much with it about the Lakers being soft. Don't forget though, that even though we teach defense here, the reason Bill wanted Mario so badly was he already was very good at anticipation on D, getting alot of deflections and steals and basically harassing opposing guards into the fetal position when they play him. I think a downfall of Kobe's mind is the fact he can't motivate himself without being snubbed by someone's opinion. He wants to be great but usually I always read about Kobe works to prove someone wrong, why doesn't he work to be the best reguardless of someone saying he sucks or not. That may be why he never wins a championship without Shaq, he always needs motivation from outside sources? What does anyone else think?

April 28, 2009 at 2:26 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

KWufan (anonymous) says...

Darn it I have to read these all before I reply so I don't forget to write it all in one big one. Wasn't that just exactly what's been happening all over basketball lately, having a 3 point lead and the foul does not happen with the clock ticking down. Wow, I almost wanted to kick my TV when Gordon started to make a shooting motion. DOC screwed up, but that seems to happen alot. I think it's a good strategy to foul, but it almost never happens. Of, course I'm glad because we won the NC that way.

April 28, 2009 at 2:32 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

waywardJay (anonymous) says...

That's the problem.... We have too.... As fans of the university that most espouses the TEAM idealogy of Basketball.... as the school that epitomizes tradition..... we should not be saying we can't knock Kobe.

Kobe is not a team player, and it has hurt him.

The Kids around him are still in the league for a reason they are decent players. Sure Vujacic is pretty soft, Luke Walton, The ucla kid......

Who has the biggest impact on that the GM who pays you, the coach that spends off seasons traveling to Tibet, or the one player on your roster, whose acknowledged biggest flaw in his game is that he quits on teammates......

You want these kids aroudn him to be tougher..... kobe should get tougher.

Lebron did it. Lebron realized what it took for him to be a Champion. He focused on defensive fundamentals this off-season, they added 1 player to that team and Cleveland is looking pretty good for a Ring.

Why not Kobe ? Because we keep telling him he is Amazing.

April 28, 2009 at 2:32 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

justanotherfan (anonymous) says...

To this whole, nobody plays defense in the NBA thing, I offer the following video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bn6O42...

It's boring for the most part, but the point of it is that Gilbert Arenas is knocking down one handed shots from college three point range like they are free throws.

Now I ask you this. If a middle caliber NBA star (not top shelf like Kobe, Lebron, etc.) can do that, how talented are these guys offensively.

Here's another. Dwyane Wade and Carmelo Anthony (not noted three point bombers) in a quick shooting contest at a team USA practice. Wade misses two in this clip, we don't see 'Melo miss any.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSMNQN...

That's how good these guys are. If left open with time and space, they will make shots, inside or out, at an absurd clip. So why do they miss? defense.

Everyone on this board knows that Mario Chalmers is a deadly shooter. Shot over 45% from three while at KU. NBA distance and defense has shaved nearly 10% off that number.

I am still of the opinion that the only reason people impune NBA defense is because the players by and large are such ridiculous athletes that it doesn't look hard. One last clip, this one of Josh Smith (probably somewhere between the 30th and 50th best player in the league). At no point during this play does Josh Smith look like he is running fast, or putting any effort whatsoever into 1) outrunning the other defenders 2) jumping from the bottom of the circle 3) elevating over a 6-10 guy. But he does all of that. That's NBA athleticism. It almost makes the game look too easy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0y13mW...

And just in case you want to argue that the reason all of that was easy is that nobody is running hard, count Smith's steps. He takes eight steps (starting from the opposite free throw line until he jumps). That's eight steps to cover over 60 feet of ground and finish with a dunk. And he makes it look easy.

April 28, 2009 at 2:43 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

waywardJay (anonymous) says...

Put it too you another way.....

My top 5 lienup player for player would be....

Robertson, Jordan, Magic, Russell, and Wilt

my next five.....

Stockton, ????? , Bird, Malone and Shaq

Who would fit that team better, Pierce or Bryant ?

April 28, 2009 at 2:43 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

KWufan (anonymous) says...

You know what wayward, I think it's a badge of honor Jayhawk nation can be proud of that we love a TEAM, not individuals. Yeah, okay, you can knock Kobe for being a dick, but with better players he did win it all, yes I know Shaq was super dominant and that doesnt' happen very often. But look at Wilt, he was Shaq back in the day but with no team around him, how many Rings does he have? That's the only reason I have to not knock Kobe, with the below average team he has he's still all alone. LeBron, is made for playoff basketball, with his offensive lineman size body and improvement (HOW does he get so much better every year, that's freakish!!), drawing fouls and dunking on everyone from centers to guards. That makes you soft very quick on D, lol. Okay, maybe I should have never used amazing to describe Kobe but I'm sorry. Here's my opinion on the kids around him getting tougher. I played basketball, not beyond HS so that does not make me an expert on hoops but I do know this. Some people have that fire in them that takes their game up a notch, beyond their normal skill level. Maybe that notch higher is for 2 mins in one game or for a few full games. I don't see anyone on the Lakers other than Kobe that has that ability. Ears, Farmar, he's probably the closest and unfortunatly he's sitting on the bench. Too many Europeans, too many nice guys, that's why I think it's his teammates more than him. Some can take a guys insults and get mad and play better, other's run and hide. Wayy to much running and hiding on the Lake show team.

April 28, 2009 at 2:46 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

KWufan (anonymous) says...

Man, hard to argue that fact of take who over who with those names!! It's hard for me to make a fair judgment, because I really, really don't care for Kobe Bryant, and I love PP no matter what, but Kobe did come close to getting it without Shaq last yr. Gosh, I don't think his EGO would be able to take not being the center of the team, becaue of his bad parting with Shaq a couple ago. So to answer that question, of course Paul is more of a team player. But shoot, who's to say Bryant wouldn't change just to win a championship? Unfortunately we've never seen him act appropriately in that reguard. But who the heck wouldn't want to say, hey I am the reason for a championship being won. If he wouldn't have helped run Shaq off, he wouldn't get the opportunity to prove to people(here we go with his mindset of proving people wrong again) that he's a great basketball player who can carry a team to greatness. EGO getting in his way again, but hey, Shaq still talks like he's the best and he ain't even close, lol.

April 28, 2009 at 2:56 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

alexwishawk (anonymous) says...

this article might not be as much garbage as when "the Truth", in all seriousness, said he was the best player in the NBA specifically calling out Kobe. i love KU, i love the Roy teams of the 90's, i love former 'hawks pimping us around the NBA, but i hate it when they do/say something stupid. Paul can's really think he is the best player in the league. he might not even be in the top 10 or 15 for that matter.

April 28, 2009 at 2:57 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

waywardJay (anonymous) says...

Just another,

Athletically, these are phenominal specimens, true. They are out of this world talented. But, you cannot use their athleticism as an excuse....

If they are athletes on Offense.... they should also be athletes on defense....

I think it was in that simmons article that he talked about Rose's outstandign defensive play ( one play mind you ) where he covered a span of about 15-10 feet in 2 steps.....

They do not play to this level consistantly..... or even marginally.....

If they did.... I would shut up..... and Kobe would usurp the thrown from Wilt as the best player of all time.

Kobe's got the talent and the ability..... he lacks the drive..... and so does most of the league.... because it's so much easier to get by on 1-2 plays of superb defense occasionally......

those guys shoot one hand shots in practice instead of working on team defense......

Interesting all those players you mention are either home for the playoffs... or will soon be......

wades almost done.... i don't see melo making it past the lakers...... josh smith with advance once if wade doesn't and gilbert arenas wasn't even in the playoffs.....

These are amazing players on offense ( even wade i am concerned about on d ) who could be fantastic defenders if they played better defense..... these guys make my point ...... they are amazingly gifted but lack the drive to be legends....

April 28, 2009 at 2:58 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

matt_tait (Matt Tait) says...

Love the defense argument and attached clips, justanotherfan.
I agree completely.

Here's the deal on that: I don't care if a guy plays defense every possession of every game the entire season. It has to be hard to want to dig in on D in mid-November against a team in last place on a Tuesday night in a half-empty arena.

What I go by is the guys who can and do dig in defensively when it counts. In the playoffs, in a Game 7, on the final possession. And I think that list is long.

As for waywardJay's all-time lineup, I'll offer mine:

First team: Kidd, Kobe, Jordan, Duncan, Shaq

Second team: Magic, Bird, LeBron, Malone, Wilt

But that's a whole different debate.

April 28, 2009 at 3:02 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

waywardJay (anonymous) says...

Shaq's got a superhuman ego, and I love him for it.

Ironically, I WANT Kobe to be "that guy".... i want him to "GET IT".....

I want there to be no doubt, because i don't think it's often that we see that kind of player...... Until, there is he gets very little lvoe from me..... because he has all the gifts, and yet he has no self love to get him to the next level.

i'm TO Lover, I'm the guy who likes people who back up their talk...... I love watching Tyrel reed get into an opposing players face after he cans a three from the corner.....

Then again, I know he's maxing his talent level.

Same with TO.

Paul's maxing out his game. He's always will and always has been.

We don't see a ceiling for Kobe..... and that disappoints me.

I can't say i have ever seen kobe injured.....

yeah he had the shooting finger thing a couple years ago.... but never anything life threatening..... like..being stabbed outside a boston club..... or career thretening like a blown acl.....

Maybe that's part of it.... he just doesn't go all out for all the reasons above....

April 28, 2009 at 3:08 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

waywardJay (anonymous) says...

Tait,

6'9 6'7 6'9 6'10 and 7 on your second team.....

Thats some height. Great debate for another time though.

April 28, 2009 at 3:21 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

matt_tait (Matt Tait) says...

Definitely another time. I like the one we have going here today.

And, I should point out that I fully expect LeBron to elevate himself to first-team status at some point. Just hasn't been around long enough yet (in my opinion) to warrant bumping one of those other guys.

April 28, 2009 at 3:23 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

waywardJay (anonymous) says...

Agreed.

Chris Paul, Deron Williams, Mario even, Lebron.....

In 10 years we can argue them better than right now.

April 28, 2009 at 3:24 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

d_prowess (anonymous) says...

Is this blog entry trying to be the most active 'Hawks in the NBA discussion ever? I think so... I am also happy to see so many NBA fans here since so many people have left the game years ago and never came back despite it being great right now. Here are a couple quick thoughts.

1. I am having a tough time coming up with more than about 2 or 3 players that I would want to either take a game winning shot in game 7 or be the defender on a game winning shot in game 7 than Kobe. Jordan is one other and possibly Lebron at this point.

2. Pierce is O.L.D. I am not dissing him, but just stating a fact that I am sure contributes to his current level of play, especially considering the amount of the load that is placed on him with KG out.

3. The NBA plays defense. I think previous posters covered this very well (including video-great!). And would also say that the NBA team with the worst record would completely destroy the college National Champs from any year.

4. I think the Bulls will win the series. The Celtics want it, but I think they know they aren't going to win it all and that is playing into their aging psyche. The Bulls on the other hand just want to win the series and are young enough to think that is enough.

April 28, 2009 at 3:44 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

waywardJay (anonymous) says...

btw... On Mario's shooting.... I looked up his statline through espn

10.5 ppg 4.9 apg and 34.3 3pct.

I looked up a few rnadom names of shoters their rookie years.....

Reggie Miller

10.0 ppg 1.6apg and 35.5 pct.

Ray Allen

13.4 ppg 2.6apg and 39.3 pct.

Dell curry ( why Dell Curry because over his career he was one of the most constant 3 shooters in the game ..... why we have stephan about to follow his daddy's footsteps

Dell Curry

4.9 ppg .9 apg and 28.4 pct.

Glen Rice

13.6 ppg 1.8 apg and 24.6pct.

Kobe

7.6 ppg 2.4apg and 37.5 pct.

Paul Pierce

16.5ppg 2.4 apg and 41.2 pct.

while some of the best pure shooters truggle their first year... it's not necessarily because of the NBA defense...... it's more than likely the distance and the pace of the game that causes shooters difficulty....

4.9 APG is near double all of these.... which is because he's a point guard and shouldn't be shooting as much .... his percentage will increase over the years... historically they do.... specifically when you look at Rice, Miller and Curry .......

comparing against up and coming young PG's

mario's 10.9 4.9 and 34.3 rookie year

compares to

deron williams 10.8 4.5 and 41.6 ( sharp decline in shooting in years previously to my surprise )

and CP3 16.1 and 7.8 but shot a torrid 28.2 from 3 land

April 28, 2009 at 4 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

BP2U (anonymous) says...

Looks like someone read your article!

Pierce won the game for the Celtics in OT tonight.

And comparing all those players - that's apples and oranges. At least compare those different-position-playing stars on one aspect of the game...

April 28, 2009 at 9:32 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

matt_tait (Matt Tait) says...

You beat me to it, BP2U...

I just logged on to start the crow-eating session.

Pierce was a machine tonight and he absolutely willed the Celtics to that victory. That's more like it. I still don't like to see so many fade-aways, but if they're going in, who cares.

Just to be fair, Ben Gordon was pretty clutch at the end tonight, too. Funny that they both ended up with 26 points (to which Gordon added 6 assists and just 1 turnover)...

But Pierce was the far better player tonight. Great to see.

Hope this one goes 7 games. What a great series!!!

April 28, 2009 at 9:53 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

panalytic (anonymous) says...

I was really surprised with the premise of this article and I disagree with it. Pierce has had a long and distinguished career as a Jayhawk and as a pro. He is currently averaging over 20 points in the NBA playoffs.

Here is a timely quote from yahoo sports:
With K.G. and Ray Allen on the sideline, Paul Pierce carried the Celtics himself, making five straight shots to beat the Bulls in OT.

Only great players can carry their team to a playoff win.

To have an article announcing Pierce is not the same player and discuss how there are several players better than him seems to be just looking for something to complain about. The writer seems to be working real hard to find faults with Pierce for some unknown reason.

April 28, 2009 at 10:25 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

KWufan (anonymous) says...

Whoook, yeah, double P is still the man, way to start this article today, I'm sure he read it, har har har. Good stats, on waywards last post earlier. I didn't catch all of the game tonight, but watched the end, awesome stuff. These games are very good for the NBA, makes your heart go up a little, yell at the refs some. No doubt the 17 ft J is great when it goes in, I"ve been waiting for those to fall in crunch time. And without Ray Allen most of the second half.

April 28, 2009 at 10:27 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

matt_tait (Matt Tait) says...

Nothing to complain about... Read the posts, panalytic. I'm a Pierce fan. Just confused --- like many of the rest --- about why he's looked a little different, a little sluggish, this postseason.

I think we got to the bottom of it.

Check the headline again, too. That's why there's a question mark. Just wanted to start a little discussion.

April 28, 2009 at 10:35 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

panalytic (anonymous) says...

Here is what I am talking about, quoting the article :
Through four games in a dog fight of a series against Chicago, Pierce, who, to his credit, is averaging 23.5 points per game, has looked slow, sluggish, unsure and unmotivated.

Calling a guy slow, sluggish, unsure and unmotivated is criticism from my perspective and the phrasing of this criticism seemed to carry more weight than acknowledging his 23.5 points per game.

Here is another quote that seemed critical:
Quick question to finish this off: How many current NBA players do you rank ahead of Pierce at this stage in the game?
Here’s my list, in no particular order:

Bringing up the topic of who is better than Pierce and discussing a list of several players better than him seems like a way of putting Pierce down.

In regards to your last post I could have just stopped at the first quote. If you are going to say a guy is slow, sluggish, unsure and unmotivated, you better be ready to stand behind that as criticism.

I do not think the article was real mean, but it was critical. Just my perspective.

April 28, 2009 at 11:14 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

waywardJay (anonymous) says...

those stats were of shooters.... which was what we were saying was mario's weakness against Nba defense..... or by estimate lack there of.....

I went with GREAT Shooters ( no matter what position) and then focused to PG.....

it's totally relevant..... mario hit 47.5 percent of his threes in college.... under 40 percent his first year of college..... ( think it was like 38.5 )

Now move it back 3-4 feet...... 35 percent.... it will come back to 40 probably by year 3..... when Wade's in New York with Lebron and Mario has to take more shots.

April 28, 2009 at 11:14 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

waywardJay (anonymous) says...

Oh yes and to the actual player responsible for this article.....

Thanks for Savings Boston's biscuits tonight....

You want to see a refreshed PP .... take care of game 6 in Chicago....... then we can talk about Orlando, and rest for a beleaguered star.

April 28, 2009 at 11:18 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

panalytic (anonymous) says...

I just read Mr. Tait's post about logging on for the crow eating session. I think that showed integrity - nice job.

April 28, 2009 at 11:55 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

jayhawkdon (anonymous) says...

Who the hell is Matt Tait? Who cares about his opinion? Can any idiot start a column? Obviously so.

"The sky is blue."

Are we now going to post ridiculous posts on this?

KU fans love both Paul and Kirk. It's too bad one of them will not advance. I have no preferential treatment towards either, but Paul has won a NBA crown, so let's go for Kirk this year. It doesn't really matter as long as a KU player wins it all, including Darnell Jackson, etc.

April 29, 2009 at 12:27 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

BoulderHawk (anonymous) says...

Um, yea sure and yes any idiot can start a blog.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailydi...

April 29, 2009 at 3:47 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

mcrozb (anonymous) says...

well said jayhawkdon !! PP was always my favorite Jayhawk since he put on a kansas uniform, but after last season how can you top that? I was so proud of him. having said that, I'd like to see another Jayhawk get a ring... Kurt, Darnell......doesn't matter, as long as the NBA Jayhawks spread the success between them.

Rock Chalk Forever !!

April 29, 2009 at 5:08 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

patton6 (anonymous) says...

Kurt? Really?!

April 29, 2009 at 9:02 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

truehawk93 (anonymous) says...

waywardJay great earlier points about Pierce! I can tell you this...when the game is on the line, who would you trust? Rose (ha), Gordon (right!), Kobe hasn't impressed me much and neither have the whole cry baby Lakers. They're a bunch of spoiled NBA players. I was a pure Laker fan in the Johnson, Worthy, Rambis, Cooper days, but now...I have converted to the Celtics completely! I like their heart, work ethic and drive.
Pierce will turn it up a notch and frankly, like most hawks, I have no problem with Kurt winning one. But, with Gordon grabbing his crotch (real classy, but UCONN)...I've never been a Bulls fan. If Celtics get knocked off, I'll push for DJ to win his first NBA ring. What a great experience that would be for DJ to win a NCAA ring and NBA ring back to back!!

Celts or Cavs!!

April 29, 2009 at 10:45 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

d_prowess (anonymous) says...

Wow, I guess it took a while, but the "Jayhawks can never be criticized" crowd has logged on. I will defend Tait, only because I agreed with him, Paul looked slower and less effective in this series until the fourth quarter and OT last night. Just because he had 23.5pts per game, doesn't mean he is playing just as good as he did last year or early this season. He is still effective, but not as dominating. And I think that is an important point, he is still really, really good, just not as good as he has been.
And you can ask who Tait is to have this opinion, but then you also need to ask who the two announcers were last night that spent the first three quarters saying essentially the same thing that this article said.

April 29, 2009 at 10:54 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

d_prowess (anonymous) says...

And maybe Paul himself has an opinion about how he has been playing... from his postgame:

"I missed a couple wide open 3s that I had, missed a couple layups," Pierce said. "I never got down over the shots I missed because I thought a lot of them were good shots.

"I just knew before long they would fall."

"I just thought I didn't over-penetrate tonight," Pierce said. "I took my time. I got some space off the dribble. I got into my sweet spot and got the shot."

Doesn't sound like someone that thinks they have been playing great the whole series does it?

April 29, 2009 at 10:58 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

beemer (anonymous) says...

Down the stretch, when the game was on the line, Paul Pierce proved why he is the TRUTH.

April 29, 2009 at 12:35 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Jaminrawk (anonymous) says...

I don't know. If you had a "re-draft" at the start of the playoffs, I think Pierce is a little higher on the list. LeBron, Kobe and D-Wade are no brainers. I pretty much agree with everone else except Ben Gordon (who I would personally take Ray Allen over, seeing as how he was the real Celtics MVP this year if you watched their games) and Mello.

As good of a player as Carmelo is, he isn't a leader. They had to bring Billups in to stabalize that team because for all of the scoring Mello is capable of, he wasn't the same in the playoffs as he was in the regular season.

Pierce remains the heart and soul of the Celts. Even in years before KG and Allen, Pierce was capable of putting a team on his back and going deep into the playoffs. If you truly watched how clutch he was last night, I think he still has it.

April 29, 2009 at 3:38 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Hawksboy88 (anonymous) says...

Wow Tait,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdJ4W_...

But you feel dumb right? You should know better.

the truth!

April 29, 2009 at 3:45 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

hawkman1031 (anonymous) says...

Last year Paul Pierce was mvp, and outplayed Kobe Steak House as the great and glorious Boston Celtics defeated La La. Pierce always is deceptive. He is faster and better than he appears. Last night he won the game, so there. Didn't seem to get any calls in the game in Chicago. Paul Pierce is the Truth. You are fortunate to be in his presence.

April 29, 2009 at 3:52 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

d_prowess (anonymous) says...

And just in case people still think Paul has been just as great as ever this playoff series, here is a line from ESPN's Bill Simmons (a man that worships the ground the Celtics and Paul walks on):

"Paul Pierce has looked sluggish for much of these five games, and Lord knows what's wrong with him, but you have to admire the way he carried Boston in the final eight minutes of Game 5. Only a few players could pull themselves out of the abyss and start draining shots like that."

And that is exactly right. Paul is still great, he just wasn't this series until late last night!

April 29, 2009 at 5:13 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

speedy (anonymous) says...

with KG out and allen missing too many shots that were shot too quickly. paul had to carry the load. defenses were set for him. he still trys just as hard. Rondo going wild does not help either. just not the same team this year.
my list for all time.
WILT,Bill Russel,pete maravich, oscar rob.,magic. and they would beat any one who ever played!

May 26, 2009 at 2:24 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )