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December 4, 2008
In recent years, more and more Jayhawks have begun to find their way onto NBA rosters. That wasn't always the case, as many KU teams of the '80s and '90s were filled with fantastic college players that barely made a peep at the professional level. But the game has changed. And so has recruiting. Now, it's equally as important for college coaches to be able to develop NBA talent as it is for them to be able to coach a 2-3 zone. Things are no different at KU, as Jayhawks coach Bill Self has developed a reputation as one of the best in the nation at cranking out NBA-ready players. That much is obvious when glancing at NBA box scores on a day-to-day basis. Just yesterday, Darrell Arthur (Memphis) scored 11 points in a loss to Atlanta, Brandon Rush (Indiana) added 5 points and 2 boards in 24 minutes against the Celtics, and Mario Chalmers (Miami) scored 10 points and added 5 assists and 3 steals while starting and playing 30 minutes in the Heat's win over Utah. As the years move on, former Jayhawks are making more of a name for themselves -- and their alma mater -- than ever before. But there still are quite a few former 'Hawks that never got that shot, guys who had outstanding college careers that didn't translate into NBA success. That list is long and it features some of KU's all-time greats.So who's on your list? Which former Jayhawks -- whether they got a shot or not -- didn't do what you thought they would at the next level? For my money, Keith Langford is at the top of the list. Langford's game was made for the NBA, as he was a guy who could finish in traffic and was never shy about driving the lane. Perhaps it was his weak jump shot or lack of size and speed that kept him out of the league, but that one always surprised me.So who's surprised you?
Comments
beakem_in_LA (anonymous) says…
I'm gonna go with LaFrentz on this one. He had size, athleticism and who could forget that killer baseline spinning jumper as a lefty? Unfortunately, all the talent and skill in the world can't make up for a severe knee injury (see D. Manning). Raef has managed to float around the league, but he's never been able to produce the way he did in college.
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avaholic (anonymous) says…
I agree about Langford. He is at the top of my list. He could always get to the bucket. I'll never forget that New Years Day game against Jarret Jack and Georgia Tech. What about Kenny Gregory? He could light it up from outside but never made it in the NBA. For someone who had a vertical jump and wingspan like he did, I can't believe he went undrafted.
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oldrocker (anonymous) says…
When you look at the long careers of guys like Mokeski, Ostertag and Dreiling, it's still hard to believe that Chenowith couldn't make an NBA roster.
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matt_tait (Matt Tait) says…
LaFrentz is a great pick. Especially for as high as he was drafted. I often wonder how good he would've been if he hadn't been injured. Was he big and tough enough to play inside in the NBA or would he still have made the inevitable transformation to the perimeter? Hard to tell. Another one I was thinking of was Boschee. He didn't necessarily have the size or NBA athleticism, but the guy could flat-out shoot the rock. Thought that might get him a look.
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matt_tait (Matt Tait) says…
Great call about Chenowith, too. The funny thing about that is if he would've left after his sophomore season, he probably would've been a lottery pick based on potential and upside alone. Instead, he stayed 2 more years and disappeared. I think staying was the right move for him. Mentally and physically, he probably wasn't ready after two years. It's just weird how that worked out. I know he got a few shots with summer league teams and whatnot, just couldn't stick. Too bad, too. I always thought he got shafted by people's overwhelmingly high expectations for him. Kind of the opposite of what's happening with Cole.
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AzHawk97 (anonymous) says…
I always thought Kenny Gregory should have gotten a more of a look from the Association. 6-6 and athletic as all get out, but maybe the lack of a consistent jumper did him in. I'm with you on Langford as well. Who would have thought KU's most successful (very loosely used) 2/3 man in the NBA would be Billy Thomas?
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matt_tait (Matt Tait) says…
What's crazy about Kenny is that in high school -- in Columbus, Ohio -- he was the more highly touted player between he and Michael Redd. And then Redd goes to Ohio State, has a decent college career and goes on to become an NBA all-star. I think the lack of a jumper and ball-handling skills hurt KG. If the league was nothing but open-court finishers, he would've been a lottery pick, though.
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burntpuma (anonymous) says…
Ever since the first KU game I went to... Boschee had always been my favorite. I really wish he had gotten an NBA shot.
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Kleave (anonymous) says…
I agree about Gregory. Langford was left handed and just didn't seem like he was strong enough on his right side. Was unbalanced. Although I agree that he should have had a better shot at the NBA, it was probably that unbalance that got him in the end.I never thought that Chenowith was an NBA caliber player. He was tall enough, but he wasn't thick enough and he was too timid around the rim. I know it probably wasn't always the case, but it seemed like most of the time if he got the ball under the rim he favored a fade away jumper over the bank or dunk. I just didn't get it.But Kenny, yeah boy, he was the man, and he should have gotten a better look from the NBA.
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esorrentino (Eric Sorrentino) says…
All really good points here. I think it's also worth mentioning Wayne Simien. I thought his size and nice touch with his jump shot would allow him to have a few productive years in the NBA.
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L12002 (anonymous) says…
I think one of the guys I was most excited about once I saw him was Luke Axtell, I don't know how much of an NBA future he ever really had but watching him at Texas and waiting on him, I was very intrigued. Another guys bit by the injury bug.
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AzHawk97 (anonymous) says…
"Who would have thought KU's most successful (very loosely used) 2/3 man in the NBA would be Billy Thomas?"I meant after Paul Pierce of course.
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matt_tait (Matt Tait) says…
It's so incredible how many NBA guys come out of nowhere and are stars at that level. Guys you never heard of in college --- heck, you might not have even heard of their colleges --- just take the league by storm. Just goes to show you what a different game NBA basketball is. Simien's a great call, too, Eric. He had the size, finesse, power and intelligence to be a productive player. Dare we say it..... Darn the injury bug!!!So much of making it in the league is about finding the right fit, too. I thought Simien found a great fit with Miami, but his minutes never materialized. Who else are we forgetting? Aaron Miles?
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d_prowess (anonymous) says…
I think as much as people see the NBA as all about the offense, the ability to defend is almost mandatory. Some of the people mentioned above did have some great parts to their game, but their defense probably wasn't good enough. On the flip side, being great at D will get you on a team, even with shaky offensive skills (See Jacque and Pollard as two pretty good examples of that). Most teams are happy to fill in their rosters with guys that may not add many points, but also won't give up many either...
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ku98 (anonymous) says…
Avaholic, I am not sure I understand your "he could light it up from the outside" about Kenny Gregory. Kenny could not shoot... from 3, from the FT line... No ball handling... I am not surprised he never made it to the NBA. Kenny was a freakish athlete though...I think Billy Thomas, Langford, and Simien could have had solid NBA careers... It just wasn't in the cards I guess...
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matt_tait (Matt Tait) says…
Great point, my friend. Someone said just last night --- Stephen Vinson, I think --- that one of the biggest reasons Brandon Rush was drafted so high this year was because he had great defensive skills and great potential in that area. Many see him becoming a better version of Bruce Bowen, the Spurs lock-down defender. Rush certainly has the size and skills to become a Bowen-type defender, but the reason he could be a better version is because he brings more offense to the table than Bowen, who's strictly a spot-up shooter. I think B. Rush is poised for a fantastic NBA career. He's already off to a pretty good start. Any other 'Hawks who didn't get a chance but could've been solid? What's everyone's thoughts on Collison? Is the way he's playing all we can expect from his career or does he have more to give?
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d_prowess (anonymous) says…
I for one, need to reserve judgement on Collison because I just haven't seen much of him to this point. When he first entered the league, I definately would put him in the Raef or Pollard category; Not going to be some 5 time all-star, but will definately never need to find work outside the NBA. I am suprised no one has mentioned Russell Robinson yet (a later blog could compare players, like the Russell vs. Miles debate-if it is one). I always saw him a bit like Jacque, but without any national attention (which may have doomed him). His D at times was overlooked with Rush and Chalmers on the court, but i still felt like he could be a 2nd or more likely 3rd string PG on a roster somewhere. Obviously there is still time for him though (look at Billy Thomas still poppin' in and out of the league!).
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matt_tait (Matt Tait) says…
Russ Rob's a great call. I'm with you on that. I bet he's better than 5-10 bench PGs that are in the league right now. They probably have size and maybe offensive skills on him, but if I'm looking for someone who's smart, takes care of the ball and can get down and dirty on defense, I'm giving Russ Rob a shot. I'd probably rather have Russ over Aaron Miles, if I'm an NBA GM. All that said, I'm not all that surprised he didn't catch on.
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JayCeph (anonymous) says…
I'm not really sure if this blog is targeting those that aren't living up to their potential (that are already in the League) vs. those that never really had a decent shot. We could talk all day about the lack of development of former Jayhawk players that already are (or were) in the League (Pollard, Collison, Big Dub, LaFrentz, Ostertag, etc.).I think the real mind-grinder is when you try to figure out why A. Miles didn't catch on, why Langford wasn't given a prolonged shot on a middle-tier team and why Kenny Gregory didn't command a decent contract for someone that could just float around on the inside and grab the longer rebounds from the 2s and 3s for a quick outlet pass to the streaking guards on his own team. It is just is too hard to figure.When it comes to big men, what about Graves (can anyone say Antoine Carr?) or TJ Pugh... just foolin' on this last one. :)
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stupidmichael (anonymous) says…
Taking nothing away from Aaron Miles, but he benefited greatly from playing with the likes of Drew Gooden, Nick Collison, Kirk Hinrich, Wayne Simien, and Keith Langford. Good God. I could average 7 assists a game if I had those players to throw the ball to. His game simply is not suited for the NBA. He never showed a consistent ability to get into the paint and cause disruption (score, distribute, collapse zones, etc). Nor did he have a consistent outside shot. I would take Russ Rob over Miles any day of the week.
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avaholic (anonymous) says…
KU98, I don't know why I put that honestly. I think I was thinking of Billy Thomas hitting from the outside.
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matt_tait (Matt Tait) says…
JayCeph - The blog was intended to cover both.... I know they're not in the same category exactly, but I thought it made it all-encompassing that way. There are quite a few that would argue that Raef's pro career was just as disappointing as a guy like Langford not getting a shot so I figured we'd just toss 'em all into the same blog. What about Boschee. Am I crazy in thinking he should've got a look because of his range alone? It sure seems like there are quite a few guys in the league that are just shooters and Boschee probably could fill their roles.
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didjabuti (anonymous) says…
I was probably too young to really judge their games, but I always enjoyed watching Rex Walters and Adonis Jordan play. Also, Simein is the first one I thought of. His whole career, even college, he has been fighting injuries. I believe he's still trying to make it but if I were an NBA GM, I'd be wary. I can't think of a year (maybe his rookie year?) that he wasn't injured (or sick) at some point. But man he has game.
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jnewell (Jesse Newell) says…
Does Darrin Hancock belong on this list?http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQw9OcTUp-sCheck out the dunks at 16 and 45 seconds, and the block at 1:36.His best year as a pro, he averaged 4 points per game.
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matt_tait (Matt Tait) says…
Great call, Newell. That dunk at :45 seconds where he just flew over that guy was unbelievable. Hancock was the first true high-flier I ever remember KU having.
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jhawkfan22 (anonymous) says…
I always thought Alonzo Jamison should have caught on as a defensive-rebounder type off the bench. That guy was a beast in the paint.Ryan Robertson comes to mind too. Drafted in the first round by Sacramento...spent the entire year on "injured reserve"...lit it up for something like 30 points in a meaningless game at the end of the season. I'm really surprised no one gave him another shot.And if we're talking unfufilled potential...Danny Manning. He was hands down the best player I've ever seen and could have been on every "all-time" list if it wasn't for the knee injuries. He still had a great career, but...man!
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matt_tait (Matt Tait) says…
Robertson's a very interesting pick. I like it. As you said, the guy was drafted in the first round for a reason and he could shoot it and had the size and smarts to play point. I'm guessing what cost him was speed and athleticism. Although a great athlete, he wasn't quite on the same level as those NBA guys. I also can't help but think part of him not getting another shot after the Kings was that he may not have wanted it. He may have felt like getting a job and getting the rest of his life started. Can't blame a guy for that. Great guy, great player. Very underrated.
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topekahaig (anonymous) says…
Al Lopes...He was 6'5 could handle and shoot the ball very well.... was as smooth as they come.
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jhawkfan22 (anonymous) says…
I seem to recall Robertson spending some time in Europe too, but I don't think it was for very long. And yeah...maybe he just wanted to move on...no shame in that at all.
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jhawkfan22 (anonymous) says…
I stand corrected. I guess the 30 I was thinking of was his 31 in his last game against Kentucky. My bad. Still...surprised he didn't get a shot. ;-)http://www.nba.com/playerfile/ryan_robertson/index.html?nav=pageAlso found out where Zo is. Might have to keep track of Bethel and see if his coaching is as good as his defense!http://athletics.bethelks.edu/basketball/mens/coaches.php
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matt_tait (Matt Tait) says…
Zo had been an assistant coach at Mill Valley High School (in Shawnee) the past 3 or 4 years and was very well liked over there. The kids loved him, head coach Justin Bogart (a great man) loved him, and the mindset and toughness he brought to that team was sensational. The Jags made it to state one year with Zo on the bench and finished fourth. He was a great high school coach and I would imagine he'll be an even better college coach.
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nammyjignigh (anonymous) says…
This blog begins and ends with Lester Earl. TJ Pugh would have been a good addition to any bench in the NBA, but here's a nice All-Would've been team:PG: Ryan RobertsonSG: Keith Langford SF: Richard ScottPF: Alonzo JamisonC: Eric Pauley6th Man: Steve Woodberry
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jnewell (Jesse Newell) says…
I remember pulling out an old college basketball team a few years ago, and Lester Earl was the No. 2-ranked high school senior in the country. I remember "can't-miss" being in his profile.The No. 1 high school player that year? Kobe Bryant.Just lets you know how high the expectations were for Mr. Earl back in the day.Oh, and he beat Kobe in the hamburger dunk contest.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bamV1EjuCGg
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klong (anonymous) says…
I disagree with anyone who is suprised Chenowith didn't make it. I happen to know the guy on a limited basis and he was not mentally tough at all. He would have never made it on a Bill Self team. I personally liked him as a person, but he didn't have the meaness you have to have in the NBA.
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Hawksboy88 (anonymous) says…
if Chenowith wanted to play in the NBA he should have got his butt in gear at KU. but didnt practice over the summer and comes back a on the bench player.
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Hawksboy88 (anonymous) says…
man if you think about this... i think CJ Giles could have been great..but he screwed up and now he plays for oregon state
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porqchop (anonymous) says…
Has everyone forgotten about Richard Scott?
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matt_tait (Matt Tait) says…
Richard Scott was always too undersized. He was a fabulous college player. One of the coolest KU players of all-time. But he had no jump shot, no handles and wouldn't have lasted 10 minutes at power forward in the NBA. It's too bad, because if there was an all-heart and effort league, he would've been a lock. Giles is a pretty good call, too. Guy had all kinds of tools just couldn't put it together. Still might get a shot, though. Who knows.
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indianajayhawk (anonymous) says…
I'm glad someone else mentioned Richard Scott up there. I really thought he would have a good shot somewhere... defense & toughness along with some pretty solid athleticism. how much pro burn did Rex Walters end up getting? I too think of Luke Axtell, but I think he's somewhere between Adam Morrison & Ryan Robertson athletically, so I guess I'd not be surprised if he didn't have it in terms of athleticism.
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matt_tait (Matt Tait) says…
Walters didn't get a ton of minutes but he did play seven seasons in the league, so take that for what it's worth....His career totals are: 4.6 ppg, 1.7 assists per game in 13.7 minutes per game. Not bad. But not anything near the kind of number KU fans would have expected.
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porqchop (anonymous) says…
No one could post-up like Richard Scott. Agree on the lack of an effective jumper. Still not sure why Rex Walters didn't make it. I'd give him as good a shot as Hinrich. Maybe it was just a bad fit, or the difference in the game over a decade ago.
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klong (anonymous) says…
I loved Richard Scott! The worst free throw shooter ever, but who cares! Heart!
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matt_tait (Matt Tait) says…
That's a great comparison. Rex was Hinrich in his day. Maybe not quite as athletic or quite as fast with the ball, but a tough competitor, a solid scorer and one of those guys other teams loved to hate.
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porqchop (anonymous) says…
I love that no one questions Mark Randall's flame out.
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d_prowess (anonymous) says…
Since it is late in the day, can we mention Jelani Janisse now? After all, he is playing for money these days and I think was even a Champion! Sure, it's SlamBall but he is leveraging his KU basketball career for something. And since I brought this up,TAIT, where is the LJ coverage of SlamBall! Have Dugan cover it after football!
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stupidmichael (anonymous) says…
For all the hype that surrounded him, Lester Earl never panned out...
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matt_tait (Matt Tait) says…
Wow. The Jelani Janisse call has me speechless. It would be a great story to see what he's up to. And I'll give it to you that he is putting his college hoops career to good use. We'll check into it. Great, great call.
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jhawkfan22 (anonymous) says…
I saw Jelani play on TV one time! It was crazy!And for those touting Richard Scott...he was absolutely awesome for us. I loved his low post work. One of my favorite all-time Jayhawks. however...at 6-6 and with no jump shot...I didn't think he'd get a sniff in the NBA. As someone above said...all-heart team...no question.
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Sparko (anonymous) says…
Bud Stallworth. He had a great long range jumper and athleticism. Oddly, he came around at the time the NBA was still a slower-paced league--it was tougher to get a shot too.
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Sparko (anonymous) says…
I should say that I thought Stallworth would have a lasting and permanent impact like White or Pierce. . .
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Djibouti (anonymous) says…
I always thought that Calvin Thompson and Ron Kellogg would have been great in the pros. Calvin as a tough guy who could just score, score, score. Kellogg as a Dell Curry, Steve Kerr, or similar type to play off a stud player and just nail 20 foot jumpers all day long.
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kusarge (anonymous) says…
If Rondo can make it in the NBA, Miles could've. Robinson as well.
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lonestarjayhawk (anonymous) says…
I like Langford as well, but the guy I thought could have a longer career in the league was Mark Randall. He was a strong 6'9 with a face up game. Played with great desire and intensity. Maybe athleticism or lack of hurt his chances?
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derekprater (anonymous) says…
I was pretty young at the time (so I probably didn't have enough perspective), but I still am surprised that neither Ron Kellogg nor Calvin Thompson got much of a shot at the NBA. That '86 squad was awesome, and both those guys were great players. Kellogg could really fill it up from distance, and they didn't call it the Cally-oop for nothing.
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stupidmichael (anonymous) says…
Aaron Miles = No Comparison to Rajon Rondo. The key difference between Rondo and Miles is the fact that Rondo can score.
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JJHawq (anonymous) says…
Steve Woodberry.
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WisconsinJayhawk (anonymous) says…
Bud Stallworth was a hulluva scorer who never really got a good shot in the league. Also, Ron Kellogg was deadeye from long range; usually there's a spot for a guy, a la John Paxton, who wasn't superb in other facets but could shoot. Archie Marshall, if he hadnt destroyed his knees, might have a had a shot at a pro career.
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jayhawk_sean (anonymous) says…
I can't believe that nobody mentioned TJ Whatley - his moustache alone should have gotten him into the NBA!Sidenote: The NBA is so terrible and very boring to watch! I love the college game!Sidenote TWO: Eric Chenowith was a lazy player - no heart, no desire!
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Lesta (anonymous) says…
Russ Rob, Steve Woodberry, Richard Scott, Pekka Markonnen -- why?
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InfiniteJ (anonymous) says…
Richard Scott was good in college, but he was a total "tweener" as far as the NBA was concerned.
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kuvinnie (anonymous) says…
What about Terry Nooner, Terry Nooner, Terry Nooner.(slow it down for effect) I can still hear his name chanted in AFH. He was a great bench player but this blog sparked my memory from the mid 90's. Perhaps a piece about "Where Are They Now" would be a good topic, too.
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mandomax (anonymous) says…
Simien battled injuries in high school also. My senior year, Free State played Leavenworth, and we heard about their monster of a player (Dub) who was sitting out because of a shoulder injury. Sound familiar?
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KansasNerd (anonymous) says…
Let me think about what Kleave said.... Langford unbalanced.... i hope your talkin balance of takin it to the rim to jump shot. If it wasnt for his jumpshot his 3 in the waning moments against Georgia Tech new yrs day wouldnt have bounced in or his jr yr against Iowa State with 30 sec left wouldnt have swished through. he ended up with what percentage from 3 like 35? not bad when you play 2 yrs with hinrich and the always shooting giddens... hard to find a stroke when all they did was shoot the 3. Maybe your talkin unbalance like not being cordinated. the all time best slasher in NCAA history has to be cordinated, and if not he pulled it off pretty well with all those knee problems. I believe he still can make a roster and prove something
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Hawksboy88 (anonymous) says…
russel will play in the NBA check his d league stats. amazing
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hawkspur (anonymous) says…
Kenny Gregory in the NBA? Seriously? I loved the guy, but he couldn't shoot the ball if his life depended on it. If I remember correctly he shot under 50% from the line one year. However, he was freakishly athletic. At the time he held the record for the highest standing vertical at the NBA pre-draft camp of 40". I think Kenny is still playing somewhere, just not sure where. He's been drifting from foreign league to foreign league since he left Lawrence.
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jeffthejayhawk (anonymous) says…
Ahh...Kenny Gregory. He will always have a place in my heart. He was the Xavier Henry of his time. By his senior year he got a decent 15 footer, but it was also the slowest shot of all time. Didn't he release on the way down? If you look at most schools in the top 20 all-time wins you find that most of thier good/great players did not make in the league for more than a year or 2.
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justanotherfan (anonymous) says…
In the NBA right now, there are 360 or so players (depending on injuries, etc). These aren't just the best, they are the best of the best of the best of the best. They are the guys that survived having an injury rob them of their speed, quickness and explosiveness (remember Lester Earl, or Darius Miles). They are the guys that rounded out their athleticism with a jumpshot (why Michael Redd is an all star while Kenny Gregory is in Europe), or overcame their so-so athleticism with other skills like passing and play making (the difference between Steve Nash and a guy like Jeff Boschee). Most of all, they are guys that know how to play the game and understand their roles. There are maybe 30 elite scorers in the NBA today, probably not that many. Guys that fancy themselves to be #1 scorers in college have to understand that unless you have a Kobe Bryant or Lebron James type ability, you probably won't be a #1 scorer in the NBA. That's just the facts. That's why a guy like Darnell Jackson fits perfectly, whereas a guy like Wayne Simien struggles. Simien isn't going to be a Tim Duncan type post scorer. But to be most effective, that's his game. With Darnell, he's going to hustle and rebound and battle, make the occassional 15 footer and play defense. He's not trying to be a #1 scorer. He doesn't need "his touches." Was Simien a better college player? Of course. But both Wayne and Darnell are slotted to be role players in the NBA, and Darnell fits that role easier than Wayne does. For every Paul Pierce, you can turn out two or three Darnell Jackson's, or Brandon Rush's, guys that aren't superstars, but will draw an NBA check for a decade. Chris Paul needs a backup, a guy that can defend and keep the offense moving while he rests for 14 minutes a game.Look at this year's draft. Right now, Beasley is a good player, Rose looks like a star, and OJ Mayo looks like a player. George Hill is a surprise, and everybody else projects as nothing more than contributors on good teams (or bad ones). That's the NBA. Most guys end up being just contributors, filling a spot in the rotation, after being at the top of the rotation all their lives. Take a guy like Eric Gordon. He's been the best player, or the second best player on every team he's been on since he was probably 12. Now he's the eighth best player on a terrible team. That's how huge the talent gap is between college and the NBA.
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RyanHawk (anonymous) says…
I'm going with Jelani Janisse he plays for the Rumble in the slamball league. He is the best player in the league. I watched the championship game a couple of months ago and he dominated but his team lost in a close game.http://www.slamball.net/Rumble.aspx
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uneekness (anonymous) says…
I know I'm coming late to this party, but no love for Milt Newton? I believe he was the only person to have been in the finals of the NCAA 3-point shooting contest and slam dunk contest (1989 NCAA Final Four festivities)
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