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Monday, January 4, 2016

No. 1 Jayhawks win 3OT instant classic vs. No. 2 Sooners

Kansas guard Frank Mason III (0) is held back by Kansas guard Devonte' Graham (4) after he was whistled for a foul on Oklahoma guard Buddy Hield (24) with seconds remain during the first half, Monday, Jan. 4, 2016 at Allen Fieldhouse.

Kansas guard Frank Mason III (0) is held back by Kansas guard Devonte' Graham (4) after he was whistled for a foul on Oklahoma guard Buddy Hield (24) with seconds remain during the first half, Monday, Jan. 4, 2016 at Allen Fieldhouse.

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The clash between the No. 1 and No. 2 ranked teams in the nation did not disappoint, as Kansas and Oklahoma put on a fantastic display of basketball with enough energy and emotion to call it a street fight in front of a rockin' Allen Fieldhouse and an ESPN Big Monday audience on Monday night. 

Folks all across the college basketball world were glued to this one on Twitter or the television and many called it easily the best game of the college basketball season and one of the best games they've seen in years. 

In the end, OU's Buddy Hield, a potential national player of the year candidate who led all scorers with 46 points and became the first opposing player to top 40 points in Allen Fielhdouse since 2008, could not lead the Sooners past Kansas and KU survived for a hard-fought 109-106, triple-overtime victory on the same day the Jayhawks climbed into the No. 1 spot in the polls for the first time since 2011. 

Hield's 46 points were the second-most by a single player in Big 12 history, trailing only Melvin Ejim, who scored 48 for Iowa State in 2014. 

Perry Ellis (27) led a balanced Kansas attack that featured four players in double figures, including Wayne Selden Jr., who added 21 and Devonté Graham, who scored 22. 

Kansas (13-1) controlled much of the first half but saw the Sooners (12-1) storm into halftime with a 44-40 by closing the first 20 minutes with a 12-0 run. Jordan Woodard hit a pair of threes and Buddy Hield, who scored 22 first-half points, hit 3 of 4 free throws, including a pair that were the result of a Bill Self technical foul. 

The game turned when: OU continued its impressive finish to the first half with a 10-4 run to open the second ,which pushed the Sooners' lead to double digits. Like the Sooners when facing a double-digit first-half deficit, the Jayhawks battled all the way back to force the three overtimes. And then it turned about 25-30 times during the overtime periods. Too many to keep track of, frankly. 

Offensive highlight: With 12:12 to play and OU leading by seven, Selden picked up a loose ball on a throw-away by Hield and stormed to the other end, taking it all the way to the rim for a monster, two-handed stuff. Selden stared down the man he dunked over after the slam and KU pulled to within five. 

Defensive highlight: Making the second-half start in place of Hunter Mickelson, Jamari Traylor quickly made Self look like a genius with a couple of big-time blocks that resulted in him hitting the deck hard both times. The first was a two-handed block in which Traylor pinned a shot against the backboard. The second was a flying swat in transition that prevented a sure fire slam dunk. 

Key stat: The last one that mattered, Devonte' Graham's 2 free throws that gave KU the win and Frank Mason' IIIs steal and free throws that set the final margin. 

Up next: The Jayhawks will get the rest of the week to recover from Monday's war and will return to action at 8 p.m. Saturday at Texas Tech on ESPNU. 

— See what people were saying about No. 1 versus No. 2 during KUsports.com’s live coverage


More news and notes from No. 1 Kansas vs. No. 2 Oklahoma




By the Numbers: Kansas 109, Oklahoma 106 (3OT)

By the Numbers: Kansas 109, Oklahoma 106 (3OT)

Comments

Mike Riches 3 years, 11 months ago

Wow, what a phenomenal game. Hands down the best regular season game I've ever seen. Get your tickets Jayhawk fans, we've got to show up strong in Norman for the rematch!

Jay Scott 3 years, 11 months ago

Wow. Great game. Great effort by Traylor and Lucas, especially for two guys the "experts" want permanently benched.

Brett McCabe 3 years, 11 months ago

"You and me against the world, sometimes it feels like you and me against the world....."

Jay Scott 3 years, 11 months ago

Did you keep track of "hockey assists" last night? Maybe that's where you build your case for changing the rotation?

Cameron Cederlind 3 years, 11 months ago

I hate criticizing a win but Traylor I can get behind, he sacrificed his body tonight for fantastic defensive plays. Lucas? I can still confidently say bench him over Mickelson. His "great effort" gave him 1 basket in 25 min of play. In 9 min of play, Mickelson had the same number of offensive rebounds. Mickelson is better in the offense, he's better in speed at transition points, and he's better on the defense. As amazing as this game was, I can't help but fault Self for playing Lucas over Mickelson for the entire 2nd half and all 3 OT.

Dirk Medema 3 years, 11 months ago

It would be so cool to sit down with Coach and just listen to him break down video. Every once in a while he gives us mortals a glimpse of what he sees on the floor and it is so so much more than we talk about on here.

I am a little confused why Hunter continues to start and get first half minutes, but doesn't get many in the 2nd half of games. I would think he'd at least get a chance to win the tip for us. Confused, but still confident that Coach knows way more than I do.

'Mari is definitely the best open court defender with decent O, and Hunter will have better low post presence with O (though a different version), but gets lost in the open court (resulting in at least 1 of the 3's at the end of the 1st half). Landen is just that steady low post presence that isn't going to be a liability. He's just a facilitator on O, and with the 4 guys around him that's all he needs to be. The 4 are good enough they don't need anyone else consuming O possessions. Just be a big body to rub off defenders.

I was a little surprised Landen wasn't setting more high ball screens. That let Perry operate down low, or the guards on the drives, without Lattin around to disrupt things. They did it a couple times (which is why I would have any knowledge to talk about it), but I thought they'd have gone to it more. It was really effective.

Marius Rowlanski 3 years, 11 months ago

Did Mickelson play at all last night in the second half plus overtime periods?

Jay Scott 3 years, 11 months ago

A new day, another win, a new Chicken Little....

Ross Hartley 3 years, 11 months ago

Lucas is much better at keeping a big out of position around the bucket and does not allow that deep entry.

Rodney Crain 3 years, 11 months ago

Great Win!!!

That is the kind of win that helps you in late March and April when you are in a close game. Tough D, stars stepping up, great opponent, back and forth. Great Toughness too.

WOW that was fun.

RCJH KU

Bryce Landon 3 years, 11 months ago

I have a feeling Jim Rome, who rarely talks college hoops, much less KU hoops, will have something to say about this one tomorrow. Considering everything against us - the refs, Buddy Hield, missing game-winners in regulation and at the end of OT and 2-OT - that we won is borderline miraculous.

Bryce Landon 3 years, 11 months ago

I may be mistaken, but I believe that is the first time KU has given up 100+ to an opponent in AFH.

Joe Ross 3 years, 11 months ago

Bryce. Sometimes you gotta rejoice bro. There's plenty of time to pick apart our players and coaches at a later date. We just beat the number 1b team in the country. In three overtimes. Have a beer. In fact, Ill buy you one.

Bryce Landon 3 years, 11 months ago

Don't get me wrong, Joe, I'm not mad that we gave up 100+ in our house to OU. I knew going in we probably wouldn't hold them under 70. I was simply stating a fact.

Steve Grimm 3 years, 11 months ago

You are correct, Bryce. This is indeed the first time KU has yielded 100+ in AFH.

Overall, this is only the 10th time a KU opponent has scored 100+. In fact, Oklahoma has done it the most (4 times). Kentucky has done it twice. The last time it happened was in 2002 at Texas.

KU has broken the century mark a multitude of times. The first time was in 1954 against Rice.

With all the history in that building, it is surprising this is the first time. But what an amazing way it happened, eh?

Good call, Bryce

Rodney Pain 3 years, 11 months ago

That was easily the most exciting game not played for a national title that I've ever seen. Way to go guys. We're the true #1. And if we can win that, we can win any game. There's no tougher challenge on the horizon.

Shannon Gustafson 3 years, 11 months ago

I agree, best regular season game I've ever seen...simply amazing! Only thing that would have made it better is if there was a buzzer beater made at some point to tie or win.

I'll disagree with the "no tougher challenge" part though. I think playing them in Norman, or ISU in Ames should be "tougher" as we won't have the best home court advantage in college basketball behind us.

Dirk Medema 3 years, 11 months ago

Spot on wrt Ames & Norman. Lots of games left to be played, but it definitely was a great game.

Marius Rowlanski 3 years, 11 months ago

I completely agree with you guys on the importance of last night's victory.

This game was much more important to Kansas then Oklahoma. I think the key to winning the BIG 12 this year means holding serve on your home court and picking off somewhere near five road games. 14 – 4 could be the record of the BIG 12 champs and the number one seed in the BIG 12 and NCAA tournament.

John Randall 3 years, 11 months ago

There wasn't a player on either team that deserved to have his team lose tonight.

All Ye Who Enter Here . . . Beware The Phog.

Adam Collins 3 years, 11 months ago

Easily the best game in the Phog since we beat Missery for the final time.

Only thing that makes it not even more spectacular was the refs. They were absolutely terrible. Not just the steal that Mason had that got Bill T'd, but Mason getting hit in the head at end of regulation with no call, OU lost 4 points because refs didn't call our goaltending, and Frank even admitted that he got closer than 3 feet at the end of the game when he got that steal. Gotta admit, though, Mason is an all out competitor and if the refs sucked so bad they would let him get within inches of the inbounder he's going to take it.

One of the best parts was seeing how much of a class act Buddy Hield was in the post game interview. He couldn't have been very happy, but he was polite, cracked a joke, and seems like a great kid. Even better was the classy KU fans who gave him a standing ovation after the interview. Way to make us look like the great fans we are!

Okay, I have to try to sleep now...

Dirk Medema 3 years, 11 months ago

Did you see Coach wink after the T? He's so good even when he's bad.

And that was one of the cleanest steals I've ever seen, and he got another one (not as clean) late also. They switch Frank on to Buddy in the 2nd half+ which is why he only got 24 pos in the final 35 minutes. Only.

Question for whomever got to watch the game with sound (vs. in the bar fending off the local Warriors w/o sound), what was the call/TO in the 2nd half when Perry was dribbling the ball at Mario's hand-off pt and went to hand off to Graham/Mason(?) coming back from the baseline. He got run into by the OU defender, and next thing I know the refs are giving the ball to OU? I was really confused.

Chris Shaw 3 years, 11 months ago

They called it an illegal screen. They said when Perry caught the hand off he moved to dislodge the defender. I thought the defender hit Perry first before he moved after receiving the hand-off. Close call but I thought It was a foul on the defender or a play on.

Dirk Medema 3 years, 11 months ago

But Perry was dribbling the ball. A screen is set by someone that doesn't have the ball and therefore isn't supposed to move. If you have the ball, aren't you supposed to be able to move with the ball? I'm still confused.

Ron Prichard 3 years, 11 months ago

They mentioned that under the new rules for illegal screens this year the ball handler can be called for an illegal screen. I thought Perry might have been a little off balance and just trying to catch his footing, but both announcers thought it was the correct call.

Tom Jones 3 years, 11 months ago

Must not be the play I think it was. The one I saw where they called Perry for a screen he clearly stuck his rump out as he was holding the ball. Definitely not a foul on OU. Maybe a no-call if they wanted to be nice.

Jesse Johnson 3 years, 11 months ago

Yeah, they called an illegal screen, which was weird because he had the ball. I've never seen that call before on a player who had the ball. I thought he was just pivoting with the ball and accidentally bumped into the OU player who happened to be running behind him. He obviously wasn't trying to set a screen.

Bryce Landon 3 years, 11 months ago

I'd say this was better than the 2012 Mizzou win.

Dave Miller 3 years, 11 months ago

I wouldn't, but that's just my humble opinion. The only thing better than the Mizzou win was the '08 National Championship. Again, just my opinion. But it was a great night of basketball in AFH !!

Marius Rowlanski 3 years, 11 months ago

Asked me in five years from now... Right now I'm still too caught up in the emotions of a triple overtime victory.

Jesse Johnson 3 years, 11 months ago

There was also the phantom call on Mason guarding Hield that allowed them to tie the game right at the end of regulation, which happened right before Mason got clocked in the head with a no-call (then the over the back call on Lucas). The game would have ended in regulation if it wasn't for that sequence of really poor officiating. That being said, looking back, it was fun to win in 3OT, even if at the time I was an anxious/nervous mess.

Ross Hartley 3 years, 11 months ago

I agree Jesse, game should have been ours at end of regulation. That missed FT was karma.

Reggie Flenory 3 years, 11 months ago

What we got tonight was baskeball porn plain and simple I'm out here on the west coast and I can't believe what I just saw I mean speechless!!!!!!

Dave Miller 3 years, 11 months ago

The baskeball eye candy was great, wasn't it? lol

Chris Shaw 3 years, 11 months ago

I'm sure the atmosphere, electricity, and excitement of this game ranks up there with the all time classics in Allen Field House. I mean, watching Buddy Hield tonight brought back memories of me watching Anthony Peeler in the Fieldhouse back in 1990. It was a hell of a win. With that said, I'm going on record with saying that this "W" masks a lot of deficiencies with this squad and I think it starts with Bill Self.

If we are breaking down film and actually understanding the dynamics of this game...It's probably one of the most annoying and frustrating 3 hour basketball games I've ever watched.

The big man rotation is an absolute disaster. Let me repeat, the big man rotation is an utter freaking disaster at the moment. Sure, Traylor had hustle plays and I will give him props for the energy and Lucas exhibited fantastic play in the 3 OT's, but starting Traylor the second half and going with Lucas the second half is what completely got KU in trouble and behind at the start of the second half.

KU has 6 Big's and two of them are McDonald's All Americans and they logged 8 combined minutes in 55 minutes total of play? 1 combined total minute in 35 second half minutes? Why did Bill Self bring these two guys in? Somebody refresh me. To win 12 straight Big 12 titles or build a team for a National Championship?

I don't even care that Diallo was the McDonald's and Jordan Classic MVP or that Bragg was a McDonald's All American. All I know is that they have tons of talent and the 7 minutes they both logged in the first half they actually played decent in their minimal PT. Both "Big's" disrupted OU on defense and created opportunities for KU not only to get on a mini-run, but created the guards to get out in transition.

This is not a post to rag on Traylor or Lucas, but both those kids have been in the program for 4 and 5 years now and you know exactly what you're gonna get from them. Their ceiling is capped and they are mature enough to handle their "Role". That's their JOB!!!!! It's time for them to understand that and accept that. It's time for Bill Self to recognize this.

I have no problem with Self wanting to go with experience, but give me a break. You don't think Diallo or Bragg could have helped the first 10 minutes of that second half? One of the most annoying games I've watched in quite sometime yet anybody and everybody will only focus on the W, the OT's, and how electrifying the atmosphere was.

Does anybody actually believe that that team and the end of the game with Traylor and Lucas on the floor has any chance of winning 4 games in the NCAA tournament to get to a Final 4 and compete for a National Championship? I say emphatically 100 percent not a chance in hell. This team is gonna need Diallo, Bragg, Svi, and Greene in some capacity or with increased "Role's" for that to happen.

Again, the Big Man rotation with Self's uncertainty and inability to define roles is a disaster.

Dirk Medema 3 years, 11 months ago

You sir are way off base. Way off base.

'Mari had several plays in a row at the start of the second half where they switch on a ball screen and he denies their guard in a 1 on 1 clear out. There aren't many bigs in all of college ball that are going to be able to defend that, and it is most certainly not the freshmen at this time. Maybe next year, but even that's a stretch. You say that the freshmen could have helped at the start of the 2nd half, but somehow that wasn't the case when they were playing at the end of the first and OU was on their run.

All I know is that they have tons of talent and the 7 minutes they both logged in the first half showed they still have plenty to learn about playing team ball. They will, but they aren't there yet, and that is why they were sitting where they were. That and the fact that Coach Self has more knowledge in his big toe than either of us will ever have, and it is ridiculous of someone like you calling him out like this from your lazy boy. Feet up buddy.

Dirk Medema 3 years, 11 months ago

Landen Lucas scored five of KU's eight points in the second overtime. Didn't even notice. Nice contribution.

Chris Shaw 3 years, 11 months ago

Not out of line. I encourage you re watch that game again from 4:00 minute mark of the first half onward. They didn't look lost in the first half. Diallo and Bragg looked good in the first half and disrupted OU defensively and created transition opportunities. I even said lucas played well in the OT. What about prior to OT's? Traylor is a mental lapse machine. Nothing like getting the short term "W" with nothing gained in the long term. The confidence of BRAGG and DIALLO continue to deteriorates. I guess nobody remembers the Vanderbilt game.

Jay Scott 3 years, 11 months ago

Was Diallo more confident against Vandy? I remember that Kansas had trouble scoring against two talented 7 footers, so they beat them in other ways. That's how it works.

There are lots of Chicken Littles who whine about the same things and make the same nonsensical arguments. You're just more verbose.

Chris Shaw 3 years, 11 months ago

Bragg was but you must have missed that reference and game. Name calling is always comical but if you would like to keep it to basketball then proceed, otherwise take your recess time elsewhere.

Jay Scott 3 years, 11 months ago

Chris. When you make stupid comments in public, you open yourself up to having them mocked.

Chris Shaw 3 years, 11 months ago

You were good with your response up until you try to make it personal. Always the first sign of inexperience on a message board. Good day. Way to keep it to basketball.

And yes, you're making my point that Vanderbilt had two talented 7 footers. And yes, Kansas did beat Vandy in other ways in that second half. You're getting closing to understanding, Jay Scott.

Jay Scott 3 years, 11 months ago

If beating a team with 2 excellent 7 footers is, as I suggested, the Jayhawks achieved and you now endorse, best accomplished by other means than post players, what was your actual point? What did "I guess nobody remembers the Vanderbilt game" mean? How is it relevant to post rotations?

As most Chicken Littles eventually do, you're arguing with yourself. Good luck.BTW, was that childish "recess" comment "personal"? I wasn't offended, just amused at both your desperation and hypocrisy.

Jay Scott 3 years, 11 months ago

Excellent point on the switch by Traylor. He brings defensive flexibility that only Wiggins exceeds in recent Jayhawk lineups. Those that lose their minds when he's in games at crunch time are in for a heavily medicated winter.

Marius Rowlanski 3 years, 11 months ago

" the fact that Coach Self has more knowledge in his big toe than either of us will ever have, and it is ridiculous of someone like you calling him out like this from your lazy boy."

So HCBS is infallible? If this is true then the LJW might as well stop taking comments. Last night's advantage of home court could very well be the reason we won. I think HCBS doesn't always use his bench to its full capability. Playing like we do now will give us a great shot of winning the BIG 12 but not so much in the BIG 12 tournament or most importantly, the NCAA tournament.

I think –- based solely on my opinion –- he is squandering the time needed to develop the potentially top two talents on this team. On the other hand, maybe by playing with so few substitutions after the first half is what won us the game.

RJ King 3 years, 11 months ago

I think you answered your own question: "both those kids have been in the program for 4 and 5 years now and you know exactly what you're gonna get from them."

Diallo looked lost at times during the Baylor game, and it's not likely the lightbulb went on in just 48 hours. If Perry or Lucas were tired or in foul trouble, I'm sure Self would've inserted Bragg. Svi has been underwhelming, and needs to either foul hard and prevent the layup or back off. His lone trey was negated by a 3-pt play at the other end.

OU is a veteran team. We needed to match that. Texas Tech should give these youngsters more minutes.

Dirk Medema 3 years, 11 months ago

TT is much improved. There won't be many learning minutes in that game. Maybe OSU or TCU? And there's always the most important time - practice and film.

Chris Shaw 3 years, 11 months ago

It's not about a lightbulb but watch Diallo's 5 minutes of the first half. It's all about confidence and the mind games Self has with this big man rotation is absurd.

Jay Scott 3 years, 11 months ago

What team do you coach Chris? Are they winning?

Self expects players to contribute within a system. Diallo hasn't. Every outing he finds ways to accumulate bad fouls, make bad passes and take ill advised shots. He'll figure it out. Until then, he'll watch a lot. Self values on court play more than cool moves in last years high school all star games.

Marius Rowlanski 3 years, 11 months ago

Jay Scott, reading several of your posts, it's obvious that you can debate/argue the positions without ad hominem attacks. You obviously have enough knowledge to state your position based on opinion, knowledge and observation.

What I don't understand is your need to belittle any poster who disagrees with you. It certainly isn't necessary and it ultimately takes away from your well based positions.. I think it is a legitimate argument that HCBS is not taking advantage of a very deep bench and isn't developing Bragg, Diallo and Vick. Yes, Diallo and Bragg are not yet ready for prime time but Self started both Ellis and Alexander in their freshman season. Bragg and Diallo have far more upside than either but this team also has experience - more than in past years. Both sides have merit but I think when you state your position, you back it up well when your response is based on the qualities I listed above.

I usually do not agree with you but at times, I think you have nailed it with a great response. Anyways, this will be the one and only post on this subject. I hope you take it with the manner I tried to get across. Knowledge > Ad hominem attacks every time.

Rodney Crain 3 years, 11 months ago

cock-a-doodle-doo from the Rooster of the board lol

Ron Prichard 3 years, 11 months ago

If you actually watched this game and the biggest thing you got out of it was three hours of frustration I feel very, very sorry for you. Is KU perfect? No. Was that one of the most fun and exciting games ever? Yes. Relax and enjoy the win. Further, enjoy the ride. This is a great team and will continue to get better. There will be time for Diallo and Bragg to get minutes this season. Maybe they should have played more. Maybe not. But we won, in what was one of the most epic college basketball games in recent memory. The entire country is talking about it. KU solidified it's hold on number 1. KU (and OU) players and fans were classy and gracious after the game. Last night was simply awesome no matter how you look at it. At least it should be...

Marius Rowlanski 3 years, 11 months ago

I wasn't so much concerned about which big men were on the court when the game ended as I was surprised that Self didn't seem to want to use the depth we have on our team. Both teams were obviously exhausted and I thought some energy off the bench might have negated needing three OT's. It worked out this time and this is more of an observation than a criticism but I was surprised at the lack of substitutions.

Chris, when I was at KU it was Rolando Blackman that seemed able to score at will when at AFH. As Buddy Hield brought back memories to you of Anthony Peeler, to me it brought back memories of sitting in the student section and watching Blackmon.

Marius Rowlanski 3 years, 11 months ago

You know what is really funny Chris? Come here after a loss when 3/4 of the comments are questioning HCBS's ability to take us deep into the NCAA tournament. I merely wondered why Self didn't use his bench which is deeper than Oklahoma's. Did he not trust Mickelson or any of the freshman or was he sticking with the players on the court because he thought they gave us the best chance of winning.

People like Tony completely rely on the "Self knows more than you do" regardless of the outcome. He He should reread the comments after our loss to Michigan State. I disagree completely with those who called for his ouster but I reserve my right to question his game time decisions. Just as important to who was on the court at the end of the game was who were the players that started the game. I also wonder at times why he brings players out of the game while they are red-hot. It happens often and I would like to know why. "Self knows best" just isn't enough for me.

Tom Jones 3 years, 11 months ago

Almost comical how a minority of fans just can't grasp the idea that Self might know more about who needs to be playing when than they do.

Self played who he knew would be in the right position against a very experienced, seasoned, talented team that KU needed to beat at all cost. This wasn't the game to hoping the pups knew what they were doing. Their time is coming.

Ross Hartley 3 years, 11 months ago

Chris, sounds like you need to get a big time NCAA job for I'm sure you believe you'd be in the Final Four every year.

Marius Rowlanski 3 years, 11 months ago

I wouldn't call it a disaster but I would call it questionable. I think that he is losing the opportunity to develop Bragg, Diallo and even Vick. I think Bragg and Diallo are both better than Alexander was last year yet he became the starting C/PF. Granted our team had less experience but Traylor, Mickelson and Lucas were all available.

When we play Texas Tech, I hope to see Bragg and Diallo get a lot more prime time PT. I really think we will need these players come tournament time.

Dirk Medema 3 years, 11 months ago

Has anyone else noticed that Frank is turning into one nasty defender. Clay in the master's hand.

Bill Corey 3 years, 11 months ago

I don't understand why we don't foul with 6 seconds left and a 3 point advantage. Put 'em the line and win by one. Is it considered bad form? Is it illegal? What am I missing? We got burned by Michigan a few years back when they came down, hit a 3, and went on to an OT win. And yet I remember Memphis saying they tried to foul Sherron in a similar situation in the '08 Nat'l Championship game. Do the refs conspire to not call a foul in that situation? Someone (nicely) enlighten this avid yet apparently uninformed fan. Little help.............

Jay Scott 3 years, 11 months ago

Totally agree. Coaches seem split on this. It extends the game to foul. If they make both, they'll foul and so on....

Bill Corey 3 years, 11 months ago

Yes, but with 5 or 6 seconds left how much extending can you do? Dunno.....

Joe Ross 3 years, 11 months ago

Other thoughts...

RESPECT TO OKLAHOMA

I dont care what they say about Ben Simmons and I know he's phenomenal. Id take Buddy Hield number 1 overall. True POY candidate who plays EVERYWHERE on the floor. Has an inside game and an NBA 3-point shot ready-made.

OU should not slip in the polls in my opinion. Id still have them at number 2.

Hield > Valentine. And to me it's not even close. Kansas should treat every opponent with the respect they gave OU. If they had they would never have lost to MSU. Got lackadaisical after they went up big on the Spartans, but when Kansas dials in they can play with any team in the country.

The conference race this year will be the toughest under Self. I think we certainly would have lost it if we had not won last night. OU is for REAL, y'all. I ain't kiddin' neither.

The game shaped up as one between the brilliance of Hield and balance of Kansas. Even with all the respect I have for Hield, I'd rather have balance. Shouldering that kind of pressure to be "the Man" is something that very few can do (obviously Hield can). But if he has an off night...

All respect in the world to Buddy Hield, Lon Kruger and to OU. I've never said that once since 1988,

Joe Ross 3 years, 11 months ago

Consolation for OU. Both teams leave that game better than when they started it.

Harlan Hobbs 3 years, 11 months ago

In the usual summary article following a game, the writer identifies "when the game turned". In this case, it is obvious. It was when the final horn blew. Hard to describe in words how great this game was. Of course, had we lost, I probably would feel different, but I hope not.

On the post game show, they referenced the presumed last time that a 1-2 matchup ended in triple overtime. Certainly, Jayhawk fans know that was the 1957 National Championship game at Municipal Auditorium in Kansas City between KU and North Carolina. Wilt Chamberlain was the most outstanding player in the tournament even though he was on the losing team. UNC went undefeated. At one month short of my 9th birthday, I was in the stands with my father, and I'm sure that I cried all the way home.

Would love to hear Mick Allen's thoughts about that night, as I know that his memory and stories are a lot better than mine.

Joe Ross 3 years, 11 months ago

By the way, there is no greater argument that can be made for developing the freshmen and other bench players than last night's game. This game was completely exhausting. With the conference so good this year and being sure to get everyone's best shot, going with a short rotation of just a handful of guys is going to wear them down. The grind is going to hurt us too much and there's simply no reason for it given the depth of talent (albeit raw but which can be developed) on the roster. Maybe in close games like this you ride your best horses, but in other conference games I would give more rope to players like Greene, Diallo, Svi, and Bragg.

It's gonna be a LONG season. That last week of January is completely brutal.

Chris Shaw 3 years, 11 months ago

I agree with this. The only problem is at what point is this gonna happen going forward? Self IMO missed all those opportunities in the non-conference. Against Texas Tech? Against TCU? Against K-State?

Self has zero trust in Bragg, Diallo, Svi, and Greene. I mean, we all witnessed that last night.

This team has reached it's ceiling if Traylor and Lucas are gonna continue to get the Bulk of the minutes and be the go to guys in crunch time. Not a look that is very appealing come March.

I think Self has missed valuable opportunities in the non-conference and the first two league games to not only get them PT, build their confidence between Bragg and Diallo. Some will say it's a process, but is it? I don't see any process or plan between Mickelson, Traylor, Lucas, Bragg, and Diallo. Throw them out there and see what sticks in the first half. This isn't youth basketball where everyone gets a participation award. Self isn't close to finding "Role's" or defining a role for the those 5. That also includes Svi and Greeene in another conversation.

Outside of Graham, Mason, Selden, and Ellis nobody on the team has any idea what their "Role" is on the team. It's definitely a rhythm and momentum downer trying to give everyone minutes in the first half and then deciding to go with your less talented but more experienced guys. And all this after 14 games into the season.

Jay Scott 3 years, 11 months ago

I hate to keep making you look stupid Chris but Greene is averaging 16.1 mins per game. That's 5th most on the team.(5 is how many players are allowed on the floor at one time) Not exactly "zero trust", is it? Svi is 7th at 13.4.

Chris Shaw 3 years, 11 months ago

You're as baffling as the rotation. I don't have time for you. Please break down when those minutes were used and then get back to me.

Jay Scott 3 years, 11 months ago

"Averaging" (as in the AVERAGE per game over the course of the season) Did you miss that?

Chris. If you can't read, that might explain why you make no sense. Maybe is isn't because you know nothing about basketball. Nah, that's most of it. You could look up these numbers in several places. ESPN does a nice job.

Chris Shaw 3 years, 11 months ago

If you can't comprehend anything don't respond. I don't care about an "Average" over the course of the season. Averages don't tell a story of dynamics within a team. I mean, do you even understand the dynamics of what occurred in the second half of last night's game? How did those "Averages" pan out last night? Were they on par for you?

Again, you are making this personal which is baffling. When you have set through hours of film sessions breaking down plays not only personally, but for others as well. Get back to me. Until then, have a little more etiquette when responding to others.

Jay Scott 3 years, 11 months ago

You're arguing with yourself again. Your comment "Self has zero trust..." is most certainly refuted by average playing time figures.

Perhaps expressing your ideas in public is a bad idea. You make absurd comments about basketball and then compound them with your simple lack of reading comprehension. Being shown as badly wrong obviously makes you irrational. This can't be good for your health.

Jack Hoff 3 years, 11 months ago

Chris I think Self has finally just reached the point where he doesn't care who gets upset about PT, he doesn't care about balanced rotation, only thing he cares about is winning and winning at the expense of certain players PT. But every game also presents unique challenges, I don't see how someone could argue with the lineup he used considering the circumstances. I recall OU going on a run to go up 68-60 and self inserted Bragg and he drops a wide open pass that trickles out of bounds. Moment was too big for him. Against Oregon state he was one of 6 players to play in the second half of that game so your wrong in saying self doesn't trust him ur for this particular game he was right to be on the bench. Svi made a corner three then proceeded to negate it by giving up a three point play on the other end. He simply isn't ready right now. Diallo was active in the first half but he hasn't shown anything outside of his debut to validate him getting expending minutes in a game of this caliber. People gotta be patient, these are freshman people. Being highly recruited doesn't automatically make you a prime time player. And frankly this real game experience stuff is being overrated. Selden had in game experience for two and a half years before he finally got it. So just cuz everyone wants Chieck to play a ton of unearned minutes doesn't mean he is gonna be a great player come March. At this point everyone might as well quit complaining about PT cuz Self doesn't care either way.

Jay Scott 3 years, 11 months ago

You might be wrong Jack. Some of the Chicken Littles swear that Self uses these forums to determine how to coach and Zenger uses them to decide whether or not to fire Self. That's definitely been stated. I can't attest to how valid it is myself....

Chris Shaw 3 years, 11 months ago

Jack Hoff, that's the mindset I"m afraid of and IMO that's unfortunately a mindset we've seen the last few seasons. I'm not looking for balanced rotations. It's more psychology, mindset, and behavioral for me, Jack. It's more about the "Role's" in which a coach allows his players and team define for themselves. I don't see how anybody could possibly get comfortable or define those roles in the manner in which Self is using Mickelson, Bragg, Diallo, Traylor, Lucas, Svi, and Greene. Greene is about the only one where we know he's gonna come off the bench (He's never gonna start) and he's gonna defer to the other players and guys are gonna set him up to shoot the rock when they create for him.

There is a way to manage egos, players, and a team and I've never been a big fan in the manner in which Self does it. EJ, Selby, and Alexander (Before we knew anything suspicious about his upcoming suspension) all had issues with this. I think it stunted their development and caused confidence issues.

There is this constant battle of hierarchy going on between Bragg, Diallo, Traylor, Lucas, and Mickelson and I think it's unnecessary as we approach the 15th game of the season. IMO it's unnecessary mind games and it's a rhythm breaker for guys like graham, mason, selden, and Ellis (they are KU's anchors now and going forward).

Jack Hoff, I agree that being highly recruited doesn't automatically make you a prime time player. 100 percent agree with that. With that said, I think there is a different plan and a different type of thinking that should be considered because guys like Diallo and Bragg won't be here for their junior and senior seasons. They aren't gonna be like Mickelson, Lucas, and Traylor and spend 4 and 5 years. So...which is it gonna be? Can't make everyone happy continuing to play 11 and 12 guys in one half and then shortening your rotation to 6 in the second half?

The issue I have is the indecisiveness to commit to a rotation between the first half and second half. I mean, Lucas and Traylor were awful in the first half. And yet, Self came to some decision in the second half to start Traylor. The constant juggling of lineups from one half to the other is breaking continuity.

Everyone wants to get the "W" now? That seems to be Self's philosophy as well as the majority of the fan base. With that said, why not use that thinking and think about the bigger picture and prepare and plan for the Final 4 and National Championship?

I would have much rather seen Diallo and Bragg get 20-25 minutes a piece last night win or lose and prepare for a run in the NCAA tournament for a National Title then use your 5th and 6th big men in a 3 OT game just to get the "W". IMO this is the difference between Tom Izzo and Bill Self.

Good Post, Jack Hoff.

Jay Scott 3 years, 11 months ago

Chris. The mere fact that they were on the floor when it mattered dispels the idiotic notion that Lucas and Traylor are the "5th and 6th big men"

That might be the most absurd thing you've said. Not for long I'm sure.....

Playing time isn't a "mind game". It's earned with on court and in practice performance. You don't seem to get that.

Joe Ross 3 years, 11 months ago

Chris, looking at the schedule I think the next four games provides ample opportunity. Then you have the last week of January which is killer. But Id try as much as possible to spread a handful of significant minutes around to each player. Then after the Texas-Iowa State-Kentucky stretch, half the games remaining in the season are available to put the finishing touches on a few guys before the tournament.

Harlan Hobbs 3 years, 11 months ago

You've hit on a good point, Joe. Will be interesting to see how these teams respond this weekend.

I know it is a dilemma for the coach. We've had a number of games where we have let leads slip away, and Coach Self thinks that his substitution patterns might have something to do with it, if they lose momentum. I guess that I will just keep on trusting his judgment. He certainly has a stellar track record. I just hope that the opportunity presents itself for him to give the bench players more time.

Mick Allen 3 years, 11 months ago

Harlan, I appreciate your inquiry into my recollection of that 1957 championship loss to the Tarheels. I vividly recall them triple teaming Wilt, daring Ron Loneski, Bob Billings, both of whom are now deceased, and Maurice King to hit uncontested 15 foot jumpers. King had a good game, but Loneski was 2 for 14 and Billings ran the team but was not an offensive threat. Wilt became increasingly frustrated with our inability to get him the ball. The Tarheel's coach, Frank McGuire tried to psyche our rookie coach Dick Harp, by switching the half court we normally warmed up on and the half court normally given to the home team, explaining to Harp that we had enough of an advantage playing the championship game in KC. He also had his 5'10" guard jump center against Wilt on the opening jump ball. Lenny Rosenbluth was NC's big gun and had a big game. NC ended the season undefeated. Wilt always believed he let KU nation down by losing the championship game. That wound healed over after Wilt's first appearance back at KU when he was honored at the field house I believe in 2000 in an emotionally moving ceremony. The triple teaming , zone defenses and his inability to play for Phog[ forced to retire by Chancellor Franklin Murphy at age 70] were the primary reasons Wilt left KU after his junior year to play for the Harlem Globetrotters for a year, before he was eligible to play in the NBA when his college class graduated.

Jack Hoff 3 years, 11 months ago

I hope this game finally shows why Bill Self values Jamari and Landen so much. I still believe Hunter should play a bit more but also have to account for momentum. The reality of it is that Chieck and Carlton are not OAD players and they will be back next year and do great things! But this year they will be subject to limited minutes and until they can prove they warrant extended minutes when given their opportunities nothing will change. And you know what, that's okay. Self has always had more success will veteran teams so what's all the fuss about force feeding freshman minutes? Just like TRob had to wait his turn, and Withey and Perry, etc. Bragg and Diallo will have to wait. This is not similar to the last few years when Bill had no choice but to play young guys and those teams were very uninspiring, blew big leads and obviously flamed out in the tourney. I think this is the first time since 2012 we have seen a team with this much grit and that is because of veteran leadership. I love the approach Self is taking and I can without a doubt see this team playing in Houston come March.

Chris Shaw 3 years, 11 months ago

Not everyone is in the same category though, Jack. Bragg and Diallo were much more highly touted than of those guys you mentioned. Even Alexander last year was more touted than both Bragg and Diallo.

This isn't all on Self as I blame the current system within college basketball. Take Wayne Selden for example. Your example would say that Wayne Selden is better now than when he was 2.5 years ago. He probably is.

However, is Wayne Selden being a Junior at Kansas better for Kansas or better for Wayne Selden? I mean, had the rule not been in place...Wayne Selden could have very easily been not only a first round pick but a lottery pick which most projected him out to be during that time.

The good thing for Selden is that he got his "time" and opportunity from the very start and with that opportunity you saw his immediate deficiencies. I don't think it's as simple as you make it out to be, Jack. You have to give Diallo and Bragg opportunities (More than what they've been given) to even have that conversation and come to those conclusions.

I don't think Alexander, Bragg, and Diallo are the same as T-Rob, Withey, and the Morris Twins. I think those are completely different scenarios with those kind of players.

Jay Scott 3 years, 11 months ago

Again Chris, you make no sense. Diallo was highly ranked but Perry was as highly ranked as Bragg. Withey was the #36 player in the nation, barely outside being a McD. Your rambling snippet on OAD and Selden made no sense on any level. You left out many other McD talents that have played under Self either as OAD players or multi year players. Your only discernible point was that they're all different. No way! Really?

What is your point Chris? (other than you disagree with how Self coaches) You look more foolish the more you post.

Jack Hoff 3 years, 11 months ago

Very insightful comment Chris. While this is certainly just my opinion and may be a bit unorthodox but I believe in game experience can be vastly overrated. Does playing Bragg and Diallo for 25-30 mins yesterday guarantee that they will be noticeably improved and consistent in March? What happens if Seld tries to give them 25 mins and Diallo picks up 3 fouls quickly, Bragg has a couple boneheaded turnovers and they miss a few bunnies? You have to take them out, simple. Also who loses minutes at their expense? For example, nobody got more "real game experience" than Wiggins and Self would force feed him to speed up his development. What was the result of that? He was a no show against Stanford Come tourney time. We also have to realize that you have to win games to make it to the tourney and there are very few gimmes in the Big 12 so sacrificing a home to play two freshman in a prime time game with two road games looming I wouldn't think is ideal. I personally believe development tends to be a year to year thing as opposed to during the season thing. In most cases it takes a guy a full year and a offseason to start making noticeable strides. You can't bank on everyone being a Joel Embiid. Getting put into a game you aren't ready for and performing poorly can probably stunt growth and confidence more than sitting on the bench and cheering on ur teammates. I don't know though, just my opinion... I could be very wrong on the issue.

Chris Shaw 3 years, 11 months ago

To your point, playing Bragg and Diallo 25-30 minutes doesn't guarantee anything, but getting an opportunity to have just 15-20 minutes over a stretch of games to work through variables and game speed is necessary to see what you have during an actual game. These spot minutes IMO don't give a good foundation on what you in arsenal.

Maybe Joe Ross is right and the next 4 games provide that possible opportunity, but I think both Bragg and Diallo especially Bragg could be a lot further along than they are. The "Hook" seems to be up and ready at seconds notice and I think that's unfortunate. It's a tough way to play for a Frosh. For Mickelson, Traylor, and Lucas not so much.

I agree development is year to year deal, but at what point do you bring a different plan for the Top 20 kids you bring in? I mean, Self has always said he wants talent over everything else.

I tend to agree with most of what you said if it's sole based on 4 year kids and redshirt 5th year seniors. I think that thinking applies. I just think their is an adjustment and different mindset/plan that Self needs to instill for best of the best. And I'm not talking Jeff Withey (Not directed at you).

Marius Rowlanski 3 years, 11 months ago

In a 55 minute game, there is room for everyone. I thought we would have a 9 man rotation but it seems Self is basically going w/a 7 man rotation. He mentioned how tired several players were which is why I wondered he didn't give some of them short breaks on what was once called a very deep bench.

Harlan Hobbs 3 years, 11 months ago

Thanks for the additional insight, Mick. What a great vantage point you have had with KU basketball over the years.

I dimly remember some of the memories you shared. Certainly, the other players you mentioned are in my memory bank, but not in the detail that you have.

For my money, Wilt is still the greatest individual player of all time, and clearly one of the 5 or 10 best athletes of all time. It was great to be at the KU-KSU game in 1997 when Wilt returned for the 40th anniversary of the championship game. I have rewatched the ceremony many times, and I still get teary-eyed.

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