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Kentucky defeats Kansas, 72-40

  • 8:30 p.m., Nov. 18, 2014
  • Bankers Life Fieldhouse,

Wednesday, November 19, 2014

Abysmal in Indy: Top-ranked Kentucky throttles Kansas

Drubbing marks worst loss of Self era

Kansas guard Wayne Selden holds his head down late in the Jayhawks' 72-40 loss to Kentucky during the Champions Classic on Tuesday, Nov. 18, 2014 at Bankers Life Fieldhouse in Indianapolis. At right is KU forward Jamari Traylor.

Kansas guard Wayne Selden holds his head down late in the Jayhawks' 72-40 loss to Kentucky during the Champions Classic on Tuesday, Nov. 18, 2014 at Bankers Life Fieldhouse in Indianapolis. At right is KU forward Jamari Traylor.

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KENTUCKY 72, KANSAS 40

Box score

— Kansas University’s basketball team figured to have some problems with Kentucky’s star-studded Wildcats and their nine McDonald’s All-Americans on Tuesday night at the Champions Classic.

But a 72-40 thrashing? The worst loss of the Bill Self era and fourth worst in Jayhawk history?

That proved quite a sobering surprise to the (1-1) Jayhawks and their legion of fans who helped sell-out Bankers Life Fieldhouse (19,306).

KU, get this, scored 12 points in the final half off 3-of-23 shooting and for the game hit 19.6 percent from the field, KU’s lowest percentage since official stats started being kept at the school in 1988-89. The next lowest mark was 28.2 percent against Temple in 1995.

KU finished with four assists, again KU’s lowest total since official stats were compiled. Five dimes vs. Oklahoma State in 2013 was the previous worst mark. The Jayhawks had zero assists the second half, obviously another record.

It all added up to fewest points for KU since the Jayhawks scored 35 in a 41-35 setback at Missouri on Jan. 20, 1982.

“I told him (media member) that was vodka,” Self deadpanned in a packed interview room after the game, KU’s 12th-year coach pretending he was sipping a stiff drink instead of a bottle of water. “The players ... it’s OK to hurt. They are embarrassed. We all are for not putting up more of a fight,” Self added. 

“It’s too early in the season (to be discouraged). The Chiefs weren’t very good early in the season either. Look now. They are playing great. The Patriots stunk. Look at them now, one of the best teams in the league. We’ve got a lot of work to do, (but) nothing says we can’t be a really good team.”

On this night however ... wow, did the Jayhawks look like the opposite of a stellar squad.

“I made a couple pretty bold statements when we got beat at TCU a couple years ago. That was a clinic compared to tonight,” Self said, comparing the UK disaster to losing to the last-place Big 12 team.

Self had a lot to say after a game in which none of his players scored in double figures. Wayne Selden Jr.’s nine points led the way.

“That’s not a total shock. When you hang 40, somebody would really have to get hot to get 10,” Self said. “We are just not very good. Obviously I knew we hadn’t practiced well and done some things well. I didn’t think it’d be like this. This is one game, although a beatdown.

“No matter how bad we shot it the first half (24.2 percent), we proved we could shoot it a helluva lot worse the second. Anybody who said, ‘No way they can shoot 24 percent again,’ they were right. We shoot 13 (percent).

“My biggest concern,” he added, “is who are my best players? I don’t know. I don’t think anybody knows. We’re good if we play a system. Individually we’re not good enough to play against guys like that. We have to become a team. We’re not close to being a team yet. It’s a long season. We’ve had some teams stink before and responded. Tonight we could have been on the top of our game and not made much difference.”

KU, which was sparked by six points from Kelly Oubre Jr. (who made his first start) actually went on an 11-2 run to cut the gap to 37-28 at :24. Kentucky, which had eight blocks the first half and 11 for the game (two off school record for a foe) did score the final point of the half to make it 38-28 at the break.

But UK outscored KU 34-12 the final half, winding up handing the Jayhawks the lopsided defeat. The previous worst loss in the Self era was a 25-pointer to Texas (80-55) on Feb. 25, 2006.

The only worst losses in KU history were to Nebraska by 40 in 1900, Kentucky by 37 in 1974 and Oklahoma State by 33 in 2000.

“We never once resembled a team offensively the entire game,” Self said. “I hope they were the primary reason why. You get long athletes who like to guard, they can cover up for mistakes better than anybody I’ve seen. They were impressive.”

KU did hold Kentucky to 43.1 percent shooting.

“We didn’t give up one lob, didn’t give up hardly anything in transition,” Self said. “If you told me before the game if we do those things, I’d said we’d hang around at least.”

KU didn’t hang around this night. The next chance to get on the court is Monday against Rider. Tip is 7 p.m., in Allen Fieldhouse.


More news and notes from Kansas-Kentucky basketball


By the numbers: Kansas vs. Kentucky

By the numbers: Kansas vs. Kentucky by KUsports.com graphic

Comments

Steve Zimmerman 7 years ago

71-52 vs Buffalo. i think we have a potential candidate.

DaNeille Dani Davis 7 years ago

wow! Kentucky is loaded. They made KU look like a high school team. I hate to say it, but boy did we suck tonight. Three field goals in the second half. That is unbelievable for a team with four All Americans. We need to develop an outside shot and someone who can take over a game for us. KU has a lot to work on to become a good team. I sure hope coach self can get it done with this team. they are a long way off from winning another big 12 championship. They even didn't look very good last game.

Rodney Crain 7 years ago

I have nothing positive for this game except it is over. I do not beleive we are as bad as we played, but we sure have a lot to improve on, considering we also struggled against unranked UCSB. This does not bode well for games against anyone taller than us remaining on our schdule.

I retract all my concerns about recruiting over the last month. I understand now why no one has signed with us for next year. I can see why a top recruit would rather sit on KY's bench than play for KU. At this point I do not see anyone leaving for the NBA on our team.

I would like to see Evan Manning wind up in the middle of the Keegan ratings. I thought he did as good as anyone else in the game.

To a man we were outclassed, outplayed, and overpowered. I can understand why Coach has no idea who to play. That was one of the worst performances by a KU team I have seen since 1972, including the TCU game. It does not surprise me that this game is the 4th worst beating we have had since we started playing basketball. To come on National TV, in front of all those pro scouts and fans and completely fail is embarassing.

Hoping for a better effort in the next game.

Let's hope we recover and get back on track against Rider.

Suzi Marshall 7 years ago

KY signed 3 and from the looks of last night, I guess they will lose 6 -7 to the NBA draft. That means they sigh 4. KY will be doing a complete rebuilding next season.

I also don't thing Kansas will lose any to the draft, meaning we might only have two open. Zimmerman would have a great opportunity with the Hawks...a veteran team, lacking only a quality length. .

Glen Miller 7 years ago

Do you have inside knowledge on this?

Dale Kroening 7 years ago

That's what everyone said about Wiggins.....

Walter Bridges 7 years ago

Actually Dale, Wiggins had narrowed his selection to either Kansas or Kentucky. Most everyone, including myself, was surprised when he chose Kansas but Kansas was one of only two teams left in his selection process.

Suzi Marshall 7 years ago

That site has the Crystal Ball showing Diallo, Ingram, and Tyler coming to Kansas. We have two open and probably someone leaves, so those 3 may be it for us.

Aaron Paisley 7 years ago

24/7 is one of the least accurate of the major recruiting services. Zimmerman is also not committing until the spring so he'll probably change his mind 10 times between now and then.

Walter Bridges 7 years ago

I would love to be wrong but show me any site that has Zimmerman coming to Kansas. And yes Aaron, as a high school senior he may indeed change his mind, he hasn't made a definitive choice as yet so while it's still a possibility, I hope Coach Self will keep every option open.

Rodney Crain 7 years ago

umm this site? sorry could not help myself LOL

Matthew Pyle 7 years ago

Suzie, why don't we focus on this team instead of next year and who might return or not. KU got embarrassed.

David Davison 7 years ago

Thats fine, but I believe Suzi was addressing the portion of the comment from Rodney about why no one has signed with KU for next year.

Walter Bridges 7 years ago

But what do you really think?

Myself..HCBS seems to have abandoned his #1 asset: His ability to build teams and develop players through experience. You're not going to beat Calipari playing his game.

Rodney Crain 7 years ago

Walter I agree, I had no idea who that team was. Self tried to coach them, up to a point. He is so ridged that we might never see a zone or a box defense, and man to man was not working. It was a hot mess.

Matthew Pyle 7 years ago

I totally agree Walter. At least mix in some veterans here and there that can play.

Walter Bridges 7 years ago

Ranking the Big 12 classes 2015 1. Texas (20 overall) 2. Oklahoma 3. Baylor 4. Kansas State 5. Oklahoma State 6. West Virginia 7. Texas Tech 8. Iowa State 9. TCU 10. Kansas

John Pritchett 7 years ago

"We’re good if we play a system. Individually we’re not good enough to play against guys like that."

That was my prediction going into this game. It's too early in the season for either team to be well coached, so it came down to raw talent, which favored Kentucky. Obviously. I did make one mistake in my prediction, however. I thought Coach Cal would pull up rather than let his boys run away on us. But what was he supposed to do, bring in his walk-ons with 10 minutes remaining? Our best five couldn't compete against their second five.

We can and will be a great team. But for me, the goal of this season is another Big 12 championship, because nobody is beating Kentucky for the NC.

John Pritchett 7 years ago

Oh, one other point about the difference between Kentucky and Kansas. Kentucky's bench is filled with players who would be starters on any other team in the country, but Kansas can't keep a guy, Conner Frankamp, who wouldn't even make the team at Kentucky. I'm not sure how Calipari does that, but it's quite a feat.

Maurice Wooten 7 years ago

Cal has one advantage over everyone else who coaches in the NCAA. He is only worried about getting kids to the NBA. He can walk into a top recruits house and tell the kid and his parents I coached in the league, and I can get your son to millions of dollars faster than anyone else. That is his advantage and its good one, its not really helping the kid become a better person with good life skills but it gets him millions of dollars. KU is going to be fine, this sucks really bad, but Self has molded less talented teams into something great, I am not worried at all.

Dave Cook 7 years ago

most of the UK kids will fall off the map quickly in the nba..get your big bucks up front and disappears because cal doesn't teach basketball.. he just stacks a team and hopes for the best.

Walter Bridges 7 years ago

I don't think is entirely true. There are many coaches who would have played Embiid in the NCAA tournament but HCBS showed that he cared more the individual player then wins. Remember, this was before the foot injury which happened when he was playing in front of NBA scouts and coaches.

Rob Bedford III 7 years ago

5 star housing and visits from Drake?

Steve Jacob 7 years ago

I would just ignore this game for now. Kentucky is just that good, when motivated. I think you have to play 40 minutes of zone against Kentucky, something Bill Self will not do.

Dick Murdock 7 years ago

There doesn't seem there's any reason for anyone to play Kentucky the rest of the season. Maybe Kentucky should play their blue team against their white team in scrimmages instead. Just cancel the games and have everybody else play for second place. I don't see anyone being competitive with that team. This will be the future of college basketball once everybody has autonomy from the NCAA.

Yonatan Negash 7 years ago

Folks, it's going to be a long season. May be even a down year for Kansas standard. This was indeed a measuring stick and we have a long ways to go. I don't believe that we're truly a #5 ranked team, not even sure we're a top 10 team. I'm not even sure there is anything the coaching staff can do to fix this team. Be prepared for a down year.

Bryce Landon 7 years ago

It's too early to say whether or not this will be a down year, but you are right; we are not #5 in the nation. We'll know more about this team by the time Big 12 play starts in January.

Matt Spitzli 7 years ago

Kentucky just broke college basketball

Bryce Landon 7 years ago

Not yet they haven't. But if indeed they go undefeated this season, then yes, they will have broken college basketball.

Jerry Walker 7 years ago

You might be an over-emotional KU fan if:

You think this team is not talented. You think Bill Self can't coach'em up into a national contender. You think this beatdown has wrecked our entire recruiting process. You think this will be a long and lost season and you've already thrown in the towel. You think that Perry Ellis is a bust.

Yep, it was an epic beat-down-for-the-ages...but this one game, the second one of the season doesn't define our chances of success this year. Rock Chalk.

Bryce Landon 7 years ago

Thank you for bringing some sense into the discussion!

Rodney Crain 7 years ago

It matters how they respond to it Jerry. They were not just beat, they were schooled on national tv in front of 90 pro scouts. We were completely controlled in the 2nd half, we did not score 10 points till the 16 min mark.

We can probably win 20 or 25 games but against tall teams if we cannot rebound nor drive the lane, nor shoot the ball we are going to be in for some long nights. We did not dominate UCSB, they were in that game.

I get it don't panic, but you have to be realistic about our shortcomings, we are not going to grow 4-5 inches over the season.

Our recruiting process was in free fall this year way before this game. Check the list what ranked team has no commits for next year at all. We have two open scholarships for heavens sakes. Just in case you missed it OU just got a commit from the lower part of the top 100, that leaves 16 players left. 11 of those we have offered, only 6 have visited.

Rodney Crain 7 years ago

It was so complete it has to be a gut check for everyone on the team. Not sure what you mean on a 20 win predictation?

Walter Bridges 7 years ago

Maybe we can get Malik Newman to talk his friend Diamond Stone to come to Kansas. I know at one time they wanted to be part of a package deal and we could use help at both positions.

Walter Bridges 7 years ago

It's been difficult but listening to several analysts on the sports programming networks and to a man they say that they have never seen Kansas take such a beating. They talk about players just out of high school handing one of the nation's best programs their worst defeat in memory.

I know reporters/analyst love to use hyperbole but at best, last night looked like a professional team smacking around a Division II program. I know that I've never needed to turn off the TV and then watch the game afterwards. I don't know if there was anything good to take away from that game.

Chris Shaw (further down) comments that this tape should be broken down play-by-play and used as a tool to learn how not to play. In all due respect, I am almost at the opposite end of the spectrum and this game/experience/tape should be burnt, throw away and never talked about again. There is no way to remove the memory of this game for the players on both sides. I hope it makes Kentucky believe in all the hype (even if true) and not continue to improve to the level they are capable of playing. And as for Kansas, just go back to the drawing board with an open mind and knowing that you are better than the team that showed up last night.

Jerry Walker 7 years ago

"Chris Shaw (further down) comments that this tape should be broken down play-by-play and used as a tool to learn how not to play." - Walter Bridges

Well, here's what Shaw said, in all of its absurdity...

"This tape and this Kentucky game is the key to success and if they don't break down every single possession of this game and use it as a learning tool, I would be very disappointed." - Chris Shaw

What's the absurdity? The pompous assumption that Shaw alone has spotted all the KU flaws and that there is some question about whether Coach Self has analyzed the game film and spotted the short-comings.

You can be assured that the film has been broken down by position, possession, out of bounds plays and every other situation during the course of the game.

These comments sections are for fans to express their opinions...I get it. But to lend any credence to the idea that Chris Shaw has spotted flaws that are oblivious to Coach Self is simply ludicrous.

It makes me wonder if Chris Shaw is any relation to Curtis Shaw...the worst referee in the history of our league...who regularly saw a game entirely different than 16,000 Jayhawk fans.

Walter Bridges 7 years ago

In predicting where this team will finish I look at it this way:

Talent coming in: Alexander, Oubre, Mykhailiuk, Graham and Hunter Mickelson... Talent leaving: Wiggins, Embiid, Andrew White, Tharpe and Frankamp...

Overall we lose in both talent and experience. Still, I think this team has more than enough talent for us to make a serious run next March but I don't think you can make a case that this team has more talent than last year's team. I have no idea what's going on with Selden. I haven't seen much improvement in Ellis and watching Mason drive to the hole surrounded by bigs time after time is getting ridiculous.

Maybe last night will be an eye-opener for both the team and the coaching staff. They know they have a lot of work ahead of them if they ever want to get on the same court with Kentucky again. For a while last night I had that deju experience of watching KU basketball my last year in 1982.

John Strayer 7 years ago

It is not just one game...this team struggled against UCSB for goodness sakes. This team can't shoot ley alone score. Heck we shot what 50% from the free throw line? Terrible.

Chris Shaw 7 years ago

This tape and this Kentucky game is the key to success and if they don't break down every single possession of this game and use it as a learning tool, I would be very disappointed.

There are lots of positives you can take away from this game. Alexander, Oubre, and Svi showed flashes but are still "green". If you don't look at stats, they moved with a purpose, showed signs of spunk, and played with confidence despite the blowout. Do all 3 need to develop? Yes without question but with a little more experience and PT i think they have the "it" factor. Those guys need minutes and PT so they can figure it out. I hate how self juggle his lineups. Give guys confidence. Oubre plays 4 min last game and now he starts against #1 team in America? Just an odd, unconventional, and weird way to build motivation and confidence IMO.

As for our point guards, I like them a lot if the coaching staff can increase their bball IQ. They need to learn, especially in this game that you have to get in the paint with a purpose...keeping your dribble and kickout passes. You can't beat Kentucky at the Rim with their size. Only way you can beat Kentucky is to keep your dribble, attack that crease, and find people to hit open jumpers. I like our point guards, but they are gonna have to be smarter and in return selden, oubre, svi, and Greene are gonna have to be ready to either shoot or be ready to create off their own dribble to set up somebody else.

This is gonna be harsh but Selden is not the answer at the 2. He's not even a 2 IMO. He's a short 3. He's not quick enough to be a 2 and he doesn't have the skill set to come off screens for a quick jumper. I also don't think he's gifted enough with the dribble to create his own jumper. If anything, this tape showed Seldens lack of confidence (major problem) and his talent level IMO isn't as good as anybody on Kentucky or for that matter Oubre or Svi.

I don't understand Self and Greene at all. Greene IMO would make a perfect point forward and I wish there was a way to develop that. Mason and graham struggled and I would have liked to have seen Greene, svi, and oubre all in the game together. It's a shame KU doesbt have an Aldrich or Withey to go with Alexander and Ellis.

KU is gonna be good but KU's point guards are gonna have to be smarter and get others involved and take what the defense gives then. This team is gonna be completely up Selden, oubre, Svi, and Greene! We go where they take us. And IMO it should be Oubre and SVI. They have the tools...just needs to be refined and developed. They showed confidence last night which is a great sign.

Walter Bridges 7 years ago

Chris, I agree with you 100% in that I don't understand how HCBS decides his starting lineup and rotation. I've always thought that for some players, it could undermine their confidence in themselves. For Russell Robinson, it did exactly the opposite but for Tharpe.. well really don't need to say much more.

As for Selden, I think he needs to stay at the 2. I'm not sure who you would replace him with.. maybe Svi but I'd rather see him at the wing. I don't think Mason to will be the starting PG. Their are times I admire his drive but consistently driving into the other team's bigs is not a winning strategy.

Self has his work cut out for him and will probably need to make some tough decisions.

Suzi Marshall 7 years ago

Kentucky was a better team, both of them, than Emporia State.

All that talk about how good our PGs were and that Ellis seems comfortable went out the window. Traylor, who fought hard, and Ellis simply can not finish strong. It will be interesting to see how UT plays KY when they go to Lexington in early December.

The concerns expressed immediately after the WU game seems clear - This is not a good shooting team. FG - 19% FT - 55% 3s - 20%

Rodney Crain 7 years ago

Absoultely correct on every point Suzi.

I am with our coach, who does he play and what is he going to do about the post? Traylor and Cliff were simply overmatched and Ellis' play is so disheartening at times I have no idea who would draft a soft player like that who does almost nothing on defense and can be controlled by talented defenders on the offensive side.

I say this with all seriousness, after how terrible we played to start the 2nd half I would have prefered to watch the KY blue team play their white team the last 10 minutes.

It was only one game but it highlights so many issues with this team I am sure Self is wondering where to begin. I am sure we will look good agains Rider but who really cares, we are so far from the top right now it could be a long long season.

Mike Riches 7 years ago

I expect UT to play a much better game against KY than we did, maybe even win, and I expect us to beat UT at least once this spring. We'll have to develop quite a bit in order to beat a team with a considerable size advantage, but I think we can. It felt like many of Kentucky's blocks last night were by a second defender, which means there's usually one of our players wide open close to the rim, but we never even looked for that. We didn't pass out of double teams well. And of course, as you mentioned, shooting was awful. All of those things can and I expect will be improved.

Marc Frey 7 years ago

First time in decades where our basketball team was playing like our football team. First time in decades where the opposite team had more talent than we do for 8 of the top 10 players. UK has a system and it seems to be working for them.

kellerman411 7 years ago

Meh it looked worse than it was. Our bigs, particularly Traylor and Cliff, don't understand how to pass out of a double team yet. Every time you saw the Kentucky bigs smothering Jamari or Cliff, there was 2 wide open shooters on the arc. Bill will teach this team how to make defenses pay for that type of garbage.

Counting all the front-ends we missed, we left easily 10-15 FTs on the court. If we take care of that and close the rebounding margin even a little, this game looks way different.

Kentucky is 10-15 points better than us right now, which is a lot better. The 30+ point loss hurts but I wouldn't read into that.

What I am concerned about is Jamari Traylor. He has taken a bunch of steps back physically. He looks 15 pounds lighter than last year. What the heck are they thinking? We needed him to be an enforcer this year, not a small forward. He doesn't even look as bouncy as he was last year.

David Atchley 7 years ago

I can't recall a more national embarrassment to Kansas Athletics....wait....oh yes...tearing down the goalposts after beating a 2-6 Iowa State team. Against arguably the tallest, most athletic team in college basketball...the best strategy is to go with a "small 3 guard lineup?" Kansas is contemplating awarding the Head Coach to a football team who's vast coaching experience is based on a "moral" victory against a TCU team and the fact "the players looked better" the last two games? Now, the only salvation fans have is Kansas basketball and that performance last night set recruiting back years. Every player not named Perry Ellis was a platoon player last year. I realize the brain trust of Kansas Athletics is from some obscure Missouri Valley School. Do we have to look like a Missouri Valley Conference program as a result?

kellerman411 7 years ago

One more thing, let this be a lesson to Cliff, Oubre, Selden and anyone else on this team that thinks they're ready for the draft. In my opinion, Cliff is a 4 year player and I'll tell you why. At his height, he is a stretch 4 in the NBA. Right now, he moves like a Center. He needs to learn how to play above the rim and desperately needs to develop a game away from the basket. That is not something you can do in 1 or 2 years. I'm not sure there is a place for him in the league at all but I do know that 4 years here will give him the best shot at it.

Mike Riches 7 years ago

It's November.

Kentucky looked really good last night...but it's early.

Kansas looked really awful last night...but it's early.

My short term prediction is when we're 5-1 in a couple weeks, with a win over Michigan State, we'll all feel a lot better.

Free throw shooting, defensive rebounding, passing, it all has to improve dramatically. But it can, and I expect it will.

Humble players are sometimes the easiest to coach.

Maybe this is a black eye for recruiting, but remember, our targets aren't signing until the spring. If Coach is able to turn this around and transform an embarrassment into a contender, it may bode well for recruiting...who knows?

I'm so ready for the OAD era to be over. The NBA can't change this fast enough in my opinion.

Janet Olin 7 years ago

I agree. I would also add that if Mason and Selden can't figure out driving the lane into a forest of 7 footers isn't working, the coach ought to do something about it. A lot of this is on Coach Self.Poor free throw shooting is poor concentration by the players.

Mike Riches 7 years ago

I agree Janet...when a team only scores 12 points in a half, there's plenty of blame to go around! You're exactly right.

DaNeille Dani Davis 7 years ago

Hell! 12 points? What's worse is 3 field goals!! How many AA do we have? Despicable! Face it, this team is soft and has no confidence. Someone better step up. I know at one point in their bb lives they each thought they were the bomb and could play in the NBA. Now go prove it!!

Bryce Landon 7 years ago

This was bad. This was historically bad. The players and coaching staff ought to be ashamed of themselves.

But let's see how Kansas fares the rest of the non-conference slate, and we'll be better able to pass judgment on them when the final horn sounds after the UNLV game.

Code_2008 7 years ago

I don't comment on here much anymore because of those stupid ads, but KU isn't going to be as great as everybody thinks they will be this year. Regardless, it's just a game. KU will still make the tournament easily, thus regular season is pointless.

Justin Kruse 7 years ago

I miss having Danny developing our bigs!

Glen Miller 7 years ago

couldn't agree more..... our bigs were way more developed when he was around. That might be why we are thin in the front court. We just don't develop them as well now that he's gone.

Michael Bennett 7 years ago

I miss having real "bigs" to develop in the first place. Like in the 90s when Roy seemed to always have a 290 lb 7-footer. 6' 8" 215 at starting center just doesn't cut it.

Rodney Crain 7 years ago

I miss Danny in general, he was a great scout, and recruiter.

Glen Miller 7 years ago

I love my Hawks and I think this team will be much better in March, than they are now....... but I have never been more embarrassed of one of our teams than I was last night. We looked lost, sometimes scared, and out of control. I know it was only the second game and it was against possibly the best college team to come along in quite some time...... but I have never seen a team from Kansas look that bad in a big game that I can remember. We looked like a D3 school playing the Houston Rockets last night. The non conference schedule might be brutal this season. Perry Ellis is soft and when things aren't going his way, he clams up and shuts down. It's time to bring him off the bench and let Cliff start. Mari and Cliff should be starting in the front court. Ellis is not a 4, especially against teams like that. I think we also saw that Selden has no business being the primary ball handler. Svi should stop shooting 3's, but I loved his defense. Mason is too small to be effective against teams like this. Alexander will have foul trouble all season. We are not deep in the front court. I have so many things on this team I could say need work, much more than years past..... I trust in Self, but I also know that OU, Texas and Iowa State all are better teams than we are right now and that 11th straight Big 12 title is in serious jeopardy. I love this team, I love this school...... but last night humbled me and embarrassed me. We've been so spoiled over the years, is this our down year maybe?? I hope not.

Armen Kurdian 7 years ago

We missed a lot of free throws and easy unchallenged put backs that made the final score look a lot worse than it should have been.

Greg Lux 7 years ago

As HCBS said ... "It's one game". We look exactly like I expected us to look against that tall a team. I didn't expect us to try and take it to the rim against them. We are so very young and we will improve a lot. Whether we will ever be good enough to beat UK this season is to be seen in March. We (the team) are going to have lots of ups and downs all year but we will get a lot better as time passes. Have some patience fans is not the end... its just the beginning.

Ethan Berger 7 years ago

A couple things. 1) this was a match up nightmare. They have 6 guys taller then our bigs outside of hunter. We have always been a big man driven offense, and we couldn't do anything. A positive I saw was our guards were able to get penetration.
2) Kentucky has already played close to 10 games. They look motivated and like they wanted to show the world how good they were. And they did. And they only put up 72. I thought defense played alright. Their bigs were hitting hooks and guards making off balanced shots. Their passing was really good, you can tell they have played together quite a bit. 3). We started the game off well until they blocked all those shots. It fazed our players big time. Bill has to find ways for our players to make it easier on offense. It seemed no guy was open all night.

I felt we were about to get blown out but not like that. The issue wasn't that they were taller, it was that they had so many that were taller. What made the 08/12 teams so special was team chemistry. Nobody could have beat UK last night. Only way they lose is if they take a game off. The reason the Spurs are so good is they have had a core of players for 10 years. We need to get back to junior/senior system players. To beat Kentucky, you need easy shots which comes with good passing. Also, if you can hit the mid range shots.

Joe Ross 7 years ago

Ive been watching Kansas basketball a lot of years, and I cant recall a single time when I ever felt Kansas got bullied. Kentucky snatched us and beat us up in a way that was disorienting and confusing, to the point that we didnt know where the punches were coming from.

Kentucky had a size advantage in terms of both height and weight. They had a talent advantage. They had an athleticism advantage. They had a depth advantage. They had a mental advantage. And not to be understated is the fact that they had an aggressiveness advantage. We looked like boys fighting grown men last night. And the insult to the injury is that this is Kentucky.

Recruiting is the difference! Some of you have it in your minds that because Kansas has been a top-3 recruiting school over the past several years that there is nothing to worry about. First of all, let me state clearly that Coach Self is a remarkable recruiter, and the guys on his coaching staff are as well. I want to be clear that Im not saying we have been down on recruits. You get Wiggins, Embiid, etc., and something has to be said for your ability to recruit. But gone are the days where we can miss out on the Myles Turners, the Trey Lyles, Jahlil Okafors and Tyus Jones' of the world. In their place we have put in the Jamari Traylors, Landen Lucases, etc. I realize I am not ingratiating myself with many of you who love our current roster. Believe me. I do to. But at the same time I realize that they are not as talented as the recruits that John Calipari is bringing in year after year.

Which means we must recruit even better.

Walter Bridges 7 years ago

When you say 'better', do you mean top 75 talent that will stick around 3 to 4 years or do you mean the absolute best player available knowing that they will only be at Kansas for one year?

Looking at the recruiting job HCBS has done about last 2-3 years and he has to rank either #2 or #3 for that time period in terms of getting the highest-ranked recruits.

Joe Ross 7 years ago

Its a new game, Walter. By "better" I certainly do NOT mean players that are lower ranked than the top 20. Your stuck in an old way of thinking. Yes the old way of recruiting worked before, but the game has changed and has passed that formula for success by. The proof as far as Kansas is concerned was the 2012 championship game, when our veteran players were completely destroyed by young guns. Its a backward way of thinking for another reason. It takes three or four years to build that kind of team. So youre going to take that long to build an effective team, while Calipari is reloading and gunning for championships EVERY YEAR, and youre still not guaranteed to win against one of those young, talented teams (as in 2012). Kansas needs to get out in front and stop playing catch up strategically. To be clear, I do not mean your definition of better. That is actually MUCH worse!

Walter Bridges 7 years ago

I guess you must have missed last year's NCAA title game against UConn and Kentucky. Too bad, it was a great game.

http://www.ncaa.com/game/basketball-men/d1/2014/04/07/kentucky-uconn

"In all, Calipari's One and Doners got outdone by a more fundamentally sound, more-seasoned group that came into this tournament a seventh-seeded afterthought but walked away with the program's fourth national title since 1999. They are the highest seed to win it all since Rollie Massimino's eighth-seeded Villanova squad in 1985."

UConn has won 4 NCAA championships since 1999 built on experienced and talented teams. Teams like our 2008 NC team.

"The proof as far as Kansas is concerned was the 2012 championship game, when our veteran players were completely destroyed by young guns."

Our team in 2012 was completely destroyed? What game were you watching? We came back from an 18 pt deficit to get within 5 points with the ball with just over a minute left. UK made their final 5 FTs to win the game. If that's your definition of 'completely destroyed' then I might as well be talking to a rock.

What did Kentucky do the following year with the once again #1 recruiting class? They lost in the first round of the NIT to Robert Morris

"Calipari is reloading and gunning for championships EVERY YEAR"

Calipari has ONE National Championship. TOTAL. 558–174 (.762) and ONE Championship I'm not stuck in an old way of thinking', you're blinded by flash and glitter. This year Kentucky may actually win his 2nd NC but this team is dominated by Juniors and Sophomores..two of which played in the loss to Robert Morris. Seems the experience wasn't lost on them.

To be honest Joe, I don't like your vision of the college game very much. I hope the NBA decides to go with a two year wait from graduation OR let them go straight out of High School...

Joe Ross 7 years ago

Walter. Youre missing the obvious.

KENTUCKY MADE IT TO THE NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP GAME LAST YEAR!

KANSAS WAS DOWN 18 POINTS IN A NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP GAME. YES WE GOT DESTROYED. THE GAME WAS NEVER IN QUESTION.

YES, CALIPARI IS THREATENING FOR CHAMPIONSHIPS EVERY YEAR. DO YOU NOT HAVE YOUR EYES OPEN?

And finally, I dont like the one and done system either. But if it exists you cant recruit or play pretending like it doesnt!!!! Youre content to play in catch up mode and I am not. If your way of thinking governed KS basketball, it would sound the horn for retreat. The big name recruits are the way of the future in the college basketball, unless something happens to change it. As long as thats the case we have to live in reality and adjust our strategies accordingly.

Walter Bridges 7 years ago

You need a reality check Joe. Do you remember you're sage advice for beating Kentucky?

"RUN AT EM! the way you neutralize a height advantage is to run. Big guys are slower up and down the court. Scoring opportunities will present themselves if we step on the accelerator. Our 10 guys are faster than their ten, AND I'D BET THE FARM ON THAT. To me, it sounds like Calipari's "platoon" system is a concoction to rest his front court. Run coach!"

Big guys are slower? Our ten guys are faster than theirs? Calipari's "platoon" system is a concoction to rest his front court?

I hope you didn't bet the farm Joe...

Waylon Cook 7 years ago

Self's fire seems to be gone.

Hate to say that but over last two years doesn't seem the same.

Michael Bennett 7 years ago

The current roster is close to being a really good one, and would have been if Embiid had stuck around another year and stayed healthy. I think that's what Self and co. originally thought would happen when they signed him. And landing Myles Turner to make up for it would have helped tremendously last night as well. I guess what I'm saying is Self had a good blueprint going and it just took a couple misses to throw it off. Sometimes that ends up being a 30-point difference. I still think the current roster has a lot of potential, but HCBS has to make bigger adjustments on offense. Playing "our style" obviously did not work in last night's case. We need to do a better job of integrating the very capable perimeter offensive weapons we have this year.

Tom Longhofer 7 years ago

Last night reminded me of Herb Nobles going up against Rick Robey and Mike Phillips. I wonder if any of Kentucky's players are still growing.

Tracey Graham 7 years ago

What this game showed is how small and unathletic KU's big guys are compared to Kentucky's. Also, if you are going to attack the rim, ATTACK it. One reason why UK got some many blocked shots is because KU players were going up very soft on their drives to the basket. They were obviously intimidated pretty much from the first couple minutes of the game.

I wasn't impressed by the win over UCSB, either. This might be a very up-and-down season, unless the freshmen improve in a big hurry.

Aaron Paisley 7 years ago

This team is still soft plain and simple and will get beat any team that can punch them in the mouth.

Walter Bridges 7 years ago

Why is that? I have always thought Self put together tough teams with tough players - RussRob, Kuan, Darnell Jackson, Reed, Mario etc. - but now I get a different vibe.

Glad I'm not the only one who feels that.

Rob Bedford III 7 years ago

Looking at the schedule I see a 10 loss season. A lot can change between now and then but KU will not win with this group of big men.

Jerry Tompkins 7 years ago

I'm just glad I didn't have one of those high dollar tickets.

Brian Skelly 7 years ago

Ouch. That's gonna leave a mark. What a beat down. No gray area here. Smackdown. Does it mean that the universe is going to implode and we'll never win again? Uhm... no. People hate this, but you have to give credit to Kentucky. To say they are loaded is an understatement. On reason im not going to flip out about this is that if a team is as loaded as this forces Cal to change the way he coaches, then it must be loaded. Im comfortable saying that it was men against boys last night. We shouldnt pretend it wasnt. I refuse to lament the fact our simply 'really good' team got smoked by a 'loaded with 7-8 NBA draft picks' team however. I do agree with Joe that it does show the difference by getting a guy or two a year from the top and getting 5-6 of them. The reality is however, the top 1-2% are that for a reason. The gap from the top 1-2% and the top 5-8% is significant. We're still going to be good most of the year, and hopefully we are peaking come March. But it still wont matter if we have to play Kentucky again. One can only hope we're on the opposite side of the bracket from them. And they're ego's start getting in the way. Because that's all thats going to derail that train.

Mike Riches 7 years ago

Yes, but he had fewer minutes than Evan Manning. I don't think he'll be a rotation player this year, and won't be surprised if he transfers.

Aaron Paisley 7 years ago

KU is going to lose 10 games again this year. They will lose at least one in Orlando, especially if they play Michigan St., They drop 2 out of 4 to Florida, Utah, Georgetown, and Temple. They drop 4 in Big 12 play, they drop one in the Big 12 tournament, and they aren't winning the NCAA tournament. This team still has no vocal leadership and that was on full display last night. Who stepped up to try and rally the troops last night? Nobody and even more than this team still being soft, a lack of leadership is the single biggest issue KU has had since Tyshawn and T-Rob left the program. Elijah Johnson was not a leader, Naadir Tharpe was not a leader, Perry Ellis is not a leader. Wayne Selden showed flashes of leadership last year, but he still hasn't embraced that role yet and until he does, this team will be a collection of individuals and not a team.

Rodney Crain 7 years ago

I take that bet too, we will lose 10 games this year I agree Aaron!

Mike Riches 7 years ago

I with you 100% Brett. Sure I may just be a homer, but I think Kansas is a lot better than they looked last night. I expect us to win the tourney in Orlando. We match up very well with MSU, as they are not big (tallest guy is 6' 9"). I see us dropping one more in non-conference (hoping not Utah, since I'll be at that game!) and 3-4 in conference. I see us winning the Big XII again, at least a share. That would put us at 6-7 losses going into the Big XII tournament, and probably a 2 seed.

Now if we lose to Rider, I might change my opinion :) but for right now, the sky isn't falling...

Joe Ross 7 years ago

I dont think we win the Big 12 tournament this year, and I also have doubts about the regular season title. Im a betting man, but I dont bet against my Jayhawks under any circumstances. Suffice it to say I think youre wrong.

Tyler Capone 7 years ago

just gonna give a quick run down of some of the roster. Mason - never seems to pass once he drives, average scorer. Selden - Still the same player as last year, maybe not even as good. Ellis - still too small to play the 4 and not versatile enough to play 3. Traylor - Lucky he has athleticism or he would be a D3 player. Greene - one dimensional Graham, Svi, Oubre and Alexander all have their weaknesses but to be honest id rather see them out there than Mason, Greene or Traylor

Tyler Capone 7 years ago

This loss will be good for the team in my opinion though. Definitely will improve. Lack of a big man and a point guard concerns me too.

Gerry Butler 7 years ago

here is a news flash. TEXAS is NOT going into Rupp and beat Kentucky keep living that dream lmao. like suzi said we aren't winning any games shooting 20% percent fromn the floor and 56 % percent from the free throw line and not blocking out we have shot miserable these first 2 games I think it was 41 % against Cal Santa Barbara long season lots to get fixed but I have faith that it WILL get worked out. but in brutal reality I don't see anybody being able to stand up with Kentucky I don't know how in the hell you ever you attack that inside they know they can be very aggressive on D so many fouls to give the inside D uh ya, whicj allows their guards to be really aggressive because of all the stoppers behind them but these are STILL MY BOYS GO HAWKS once a Jayhawk always a jayhawk

Dale Kroening 7 years ago

Gotta love those who think the seasons over after one game. Its ONE game and the second game of the season. We looked horrible , but we will be fine. We have one of the best coaches in the game , and while we may not have 9 Mickey D's All Americans , we still have good players. We've seen this before , and this may be a good thing IMHO. Now these kids might listen to Coach Self. Its not the end of the world people , just one BAD loss. This will make these kids better in the long run. Win or lose I stick with this team. UK is loaded and will be tough to beat , but KU will be a good team by seasons end..... ROCK CHALK !!!

Rob Stewart 7 years ago

We played "rushed" to fast for young guns, (0) High Low action, justa bob and weave offense, they invite you to turn the corner and taste Spaulding. Little to NO offense, just a pick up game. Drive but NO DISH, just splatter on glass, Did anyone notice the half time show included window cleaning too. Sure missed 25-30 minutes of Connor Frankamp's calming influence on the dash and splash kids, players minds on goulash. CF was a treat to see him"steal" major minutes and "make" the "team" better, did you see that from the celebrated PG's? Too much talent is not always the best recipe, i betcha last years Iowa Stae would have schooled the McDonald boys of Kentucky..... Drive and Dish at what 6-7"-6-8", spread the court, SVI was not impressive doing turn around jumpers from 23', really! Better days ahead, learn an offense, shelve the simple WEAVE...

Bill Corey 7 years ago

I haven't read all the posts so I hope I'm not being repetitive. The only major good to come from Kenphucky running the table and winning all their games is finally getting rid of OAD's and putting sleaze merchants like CaliPUNK out of business.

One can only hope!!!!!!!!

Suzi Marshall 7 years ago

Your trashing of a great team (Kentucky) and coach (Cal), with strong Kansas roots, is off base. Cal is a good man who cares about his players and job.

We just need to do a better job to compete.

Rodney Crain 7 years ago

I agree Suzi, we are getting beat every year, not just last night.

Bill Corey 7 years ago

I haven't read all the posts so I hope I'm not being repetitive. The only major good to come from Kentucky running the table and winning all their games is finally getting rid of OAD's and putting sleaze merchants like CaliPUNK out of business.

One can only hope!!!!!!!!

Joe Ross 7 years ago

Id rather not have it said that we couldnt beat Cal at his own game and Kansas was saved by a change. Id rather have it said that Kansas saw a challenge and we stepped up and overcame it. We just have to recruit better is all.

Bill Corey 7 years ago

ALL, REPEAT ALL of college basketball would be saved by getting rid of OAD's. Do the same thing college football does. Joe Ross, do you really want to become like Kentucky? Do you really think we need to get into the sleazy world of OAD's?

Joe Ross 7 years ago

The answer is YES. As long as the powers that be have created the situation that exists, we need to get into the sleazy business of one and dones. I dont like the situation any more than you do. But it is what it is. And since its that way, we cant bury our heads under the covers and hope the boogie man goes away. Do I want to become like Kentucky? You mean competing for NCAA Championships every year? Yes, please.

Rodney Crain 7 years ago

I agree Bill but this is out of college basketballs control. From an international and NBA players assn. level, (no matter what Adam Silver wants the players have to approve any changes to the CBA), they control who plays in their leagues. Neither is even thinking about changing the current age level requirements. It sucks I think we can all agree, but it is not changing anytime soon and without a fight.

So the coach's approach has to change, to how to recruit, coach, and reload with top talent at the college level. Cal is the master hands down, from dorms to practice to a NBA combine (sigh), he is playing the "music" (Drake this year) that is drawing talent to his school. It does not always mean success, but on the whole you have to like his chances each year.

Look at who has signed top 100 talent for next year. There are many teams that usually you do not see attracting that talent that have picked up someone. It shows me a change in how players are trying to make a statement about themselves. If you cannot get to KY or Duke, then find a school you can be the "guy" and standout. KU is known for posts and wings, we do not attrack top guards any more. When we get past 2-3 Top 20 guys, it is hard to get top 30-100 talent, they cannot stand out.

Football is a US only sport (no offense Gray Cup teams), with no developmental league, and obviously has more phyiscal effects for the players to consider than basketball. The setup in place protects the players safety to a point. The NFL, and College Football wins. (well except the players I guess)

To replicate it in basketball is going to be next to impossible. The NCAA cannot force you to stay in school, you have international options, where you can make decent money, and one year in school is not a bad option either. It sucks but I just do not think it is going to change. So we need to be flexible enough and attractive enough to get the right mix of talent to be competitive for a final four every 2 out of 4 years, and take our chances once we get there.

Walter Bridges 7 years ago

AND I'd rather say Self beat Calipari playing his game...building a strong experienced nucleus w/a few talented gunslingers. Where is the Travis Relefords or Darnell Jacksons on this team? I'll take Tyrel Reed over Josh Selby everyday any day.

Bill, you will have to excuse Joe. He believes there is only one way to win and the Calipari way is it despite all the evidence to disprove this notion such as who won the NC last year and that us was experience over talent that allowed UConn to do it. He doesn't believe Kentucky lost in the FIRST round of the NIT only 2 years ago.

Don't make the mistake as I have of trying to point out the inconsistencies of his delusions... You would have a better chance of proving to him that the Earth is flat.

Mike Riches 7 years ago

I do not like the OAD rule. Personally I think college basketball would be best served with a baseball-like rule: kids can go pro out of high school, but if they go to college, it's at least for three years. Having said that, I don't think KY running the table would have any impact on changing the rule. It's the NBA that makes the rule, and they're not interested one bit in what is best for college basketball.

Bill Corey 7 years ago

Unfortunately so true. One can only hope!!!!

David Castle 7 years ago

It wasn't the one-and-dones that beat you all , it was the kids that decided to stay an extra year , that is why we are so deep this year. We actually have a little experience for once . Kansas is a great program with a great coach and they will be fine .

Mike Riches 7 years ago

The OAD's had plenty to do with last night's game, but that's not the point. This is not a knock on KY. We've had enough OAD players (Wiggins, Embiid, probably Alexander this year) to see that it's not great for the game. Coach Cal has said the same thing, he would love for the rule to change. He would still be an excellent recruiter and coach if his kids stayed 2-3 years minimum, but he would also be able to develop his players so much more. And he wouldn't be under as much pressure to recruit so much top talent every year. KY beat us with great OAD talent in 2012, then lost in the NIT the following year, again with OAD talent. That kind of inconsistency would not exist as much if the rule were changed, and that would be better for college basketball.

David Castle 7 years ago

UK fan here , I didn't come here to rub in the beating that you all took last night , wasn't even going to comment until I read all the "Doom and Gloom "comments I have read . Your still the Kansas Jayhawks and you will still have a great season this year . We just have a VERY deep team this season , we don't have to worry about getting tired because we can bring another player just as good . We don't have to worry about fouls for the same reason .We are this good this season because we have unselfish players that have bought into Coach Cal' s system , plus we have players that realized they could use another year in college before going pro . Don't get me wrong , we will enjoy this win because a team doesn't beat a quality team like Kansas that often but the Kansas Jayhawks have a great coach in Bill Self and your team will be a great team this season even if you don't win the national championship this year . We won't be this deep forever , just this year . Keep your heads up and hang in there because it is college basketball and you never know what can happen . It could be worse , you could be the North Carolina Tar heels lol !

Rodney Crain 7 years ago

Thanks David, but from this Jayhawks fan, keep your chin up speeches for someone who cares. You go on and on about how great your team is while telling us basically no one stands a chance against you this year anyway. Your agenda is clear. So here is hoping you lose at least one game this year, the last one.

We actually like Roy here. We still like to beat his team, but your UNC comment misses as well.

David in closing I read the desperate "Doom and Gloom" comments from the KY fan base when you were drop kicked out of the NIT in the first round just a few years ago when your team quit on your coach. We have yet to sink that low, I think we will be fine.

David Castle 7 years ago

Wow , was trying to be nice because I like Kansas and respect that Bill Self is a great coach . Don't care much for Roy Williams who refused to call off the dogs when we were on probation and he wanted to make a name for himself by beating us by 60+ points back in the 80's . But Roy will be getting his payback soon for having some of his basketball players at North Carolina take classes that didn't exist . With UK having such a deep team this year , we have a chance to make history . I wasn't trying to rub it in the Kansas' s faithful faces , I was just trying to say its early in the year to keep your heads up that anything can happen . But I guess some people can't be talked to or reasoned with . I guess if you want to watch history then you can turn your tv to the SEC Network !

Rodney Crain 7 years ago

And the troll rises... I am just trying to be nice.

Suzi Marshall 7 years ago

I attended that game and can tell you as an up close eye witness that Pitino brought that beat down upon himself. His boorish imp behavior was shameful Petino refused to shake Roy's hand at the beginning of the game. He didn't even come on the court until the game commenced.

All through the game, he gave glaring, childish looks over to William. Even when Kansas emptied the bench, Pitino kept it up, inciting our guys to play harder. Finally Pitino flipped off Roy.

Rodney Crain 7 years ago

Yes mam, we were up by like 30 or 40 we put in subs and Rick kept his starters in there full court pressing us, pushing hard fouls with the game over. It was just not their day but he would not let it go. Roy put our starters back in and gave him what he wanted. Rick said KY would never play KS in Allen again.

If that is where you anger is rooted David, you need to watch that game again. That was all on Rick.

Suzi Marshall 7 years ago

A lot of us appreciate your comments.

I take a kind of parental pride in KY's BBall team going back to the relationship Rupp had with Owens and his predecessors. I also fondly recall Ca's days at Kansas, where he met his wife. Cal was always available to play with any of the players anytime. He was often on campus looking in on the players in their classes. He'd bring things ,like a mild shake, to players what were sick...on and on. The Kansas players loved Cal for the same reason the KY players to...because he cares for them.

Kansas fans, for the most part, loves Roy and the UNC program. KU, UK and UNC are the soul of college basketball.

I truly hope KY goes undefeated, unless they play Kansas again.

David Castle 7 years ago

Thank you Suzi , and I believe that Kansas will be in the elite 8 or final 4 again this year , they usually are and it wouldn't feel like March madness if they weren't there . It's a long season and if anyone can get the Jayhawks kick started , then I am sure Bill Self can do it . Hopefully your team is so upset by their performance it may fuel them the rest of the season . I wish you all a great season and hope if you have to lose another game that it's to us in the championship game .

Rodney Crain 7 years ago

Mercy, you call us out then wish us well, hilarious. I only have your best interest at heart, right? What a joke. I have respect for KY and Cal, just not their fans like you. I also know better than to go on a KY board as.a fan of a team who just beat you with a hold your chin up speech. It is disrespectful. especially while recapping how great you are. Save it for your own boards.

David Castle 7 years ago

Wrong answer Ichabod ! I was actually being sincere but Suzi understands , I guess every team has obnoxious fans like you . I wish the rest of the Jayhawk fans well .

Rodney Crain 7 years ago

Sure you were David, being sincere thats exactly what you were doing. It is hard to play the favorite and the poor sincere victim at the same time while being disrespectful. Your comments are in poor taste.

Also it was not an answer David, it was statement, I said you were being disrespectful. Like your veiled comments in your original post, like your "I guess if you want to watch history then you can turn your tv to the SEC Network" comment at the end of your second. Here with your calling me what you think is a derogatory name that I would take offense to?

Every time you reply you keep making my point, you just can't help yourself.

Rodney Crain 7 years ago

LOL well Ty I am not mad, I just do not suffer fools well.

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