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Thursday, July 31, 2014

Keegan

Column: KU can win 4; here’s how

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Welcome to my summer. It has gone pretty much like this with a different conversation partner every day:

Him: “How many wins will KU get in football this year?”

Me: “Four.”

Him: “No way. I’ve looked at that schedule. I don’t see four wins. I see two. How are they going to get to four? Show me four wins on that schedule.”

OK.

The annual look at KU’s best shots at victories, ranked from most likely to least:

1. Southeast Missouri State, Sept. 6, Memorial Stadium: The Redhawks went 2-6 in the Ohio Valley Conference last season.

2. Central Michigan, Sept. 20, Memorial Stadium: Almost everyone is back from a 6-6 team that battled injuries all year. The Chippewas will have a chance to show what they’re made of before coming to Lawrence. They travel to Purdue and then play Syracuse at home in their second and third games of the season. This game is no more a given than was Louisiana Tech a year ago, against which KU eked out a 13-10 victory one week before the Bulldogs lost to Army, 35-16.

3. Iowa State, Nov. 8, Memorial Stadium: Raise your hand if you have heard this opinion uttered about this game: “Mark Mangino’s going to be so fired up for revenge, no way KU beats Iowa State.” Now, if you even said that yourself, take that raised hand and cover your mouth with it.

True, football is an emotional sport, but to expect the players to be personally offended for their first-year offensive coordinator might be a stretch. Even if they do want to win one for the OC, it takes talented skill-position players to pull that off on the road, and the Cyclones are a little shy in that department.

4. TCU, Nov. 15, Memorial Stadium: The Horned Frogs turned it over five times in a 27-17 victory against Kansas last season, one of only four victories. JaCorey Shepherd scored one of KU’s touchdowns with a 32-yard interception return. TCU has more talent than Kansas, but not by a significant margin.

5. At Duke, Sept. 13: The Blue Devils have the majority of the roster back from a team that played in a BCS bowl game. The underdog mentality helped Duke a year ago, but the basketball-first school won’t take anybody by surprise this time. The emotional edge belongs to KU, which will be seeking to break a 27-game losing streak in games played outside Lawrence. Unlike in most games, Kansas won’t necessarily be at a big disadvantage in the trenches.

6. At West Virginia, Oct. 4: Kansas hasn’t defeated the same school two years in a row since a pair of close victories vs. Iowa State (2008, 2009), and the Mountaineers will have the home field and revenge as motivating factors. Still, Kansas won’t go forever without winning away from home.

7. Texas, Sept. 27, Memorial Stadium: New coach Charlie Strong will demand more toughness out of the Longhorns, but most programs struggle in the transition year after a coaching change, particularly early in the season. Do you believe in miracles? Al Michaels does, but my guess is he’s picking the Longhorns to win this one.

8. At Texas Tech, Oct. 18: Tony Pierson rushed for 202 yards in Lubbock two years ago on a day Kansas pushed the Red Raiders into double overtime. The Jayhawks won’t be intimidated going back to the flattest town on earth.

9. Oklahoma State, Oct. 11, Memorial Stadium: Speed is the first word that comes to mind with the Cowboys, but it’s at the line of scrimmage that the domination starts.

10. At Baylor, Nov. 1: The last time Art Briles lost to Kansas, he was coaching Houston in the Fort Worth Bowl, when Charlton Keith played a game that hasn’t been duplicated by a Kansas defensive end since.

11. At Oklahoma, Nov. 22: Trevor Knight could develop into the latest Sooners quarterback to become a Heisman Trophy finalist.

12. At Kansas State, Nov. 29: Bill Snyder hasn’t said when he will retire again, but whenever that is, it’s safe to say he won’t lose another game to Kansas.

Can Kansas win four games?

Sure.

Comments

Mo Golany 3 months, 3 weeks ago

I don't know about you but with a new offense and the experience the players had playing on the road in places like Texas last year I actually think we are going to be pretty good this year. Our defense was not that bad last year and we have everyone back. If this new offense can put up points with Cozart and Harwell look out. I think we take the next step win our first 3games and have a great shot from there!

Scott Burkhart 3 months, 3 weeks ago

I'm fired up because you're fired up! Win 4? No way.

Aaron Paisley 3 months, 3 weeks ago

KU should beat SEMO and CMU. The defense will be good enough to keep KU in quite a few games this year. I do think the offense will be good enough to pull 2-3 upsets in Big 12 play.

Jim Stauffer 3 months, 3 weeks ago

You just showed me how we can win 6 games. In nearly the exact order of ease you have suggested.

Curtis Stutz 3 months, 3 weeks ago

I'd probably put KU's odds at making it to 6 wins at 35-1, somewhere around there. Over/Under of 3.5 sounds right with the over more likely. SMSt, CMU, TCU, @Duke, Texas, ISU, @WVU, OSU, @TT, @BU, @KSU, @OU being my ranking of best chances.

Doug Cramer 3 months, 3 weeks ago

I see the Kool-Aid flux is at full velocity this morning.

We don't beat Duke, and if we get lucky, we squeak out one Big 12 game.

Finally, I'm not sure why some of us conclude that our defense is good. It ranked close to 100 last season out of 120 schools.

Our D-line sucked, which is evident in our sack numbers and pressure on opposing QBs. We'll be greatful if it's any better this season with the lack of talent and depth.

I predict 3 - 9.

This will most likely lead to a Weis resignation and Zenger asks Mangino to come back.

Joe Ross 3 months, 3 weeks ago

Hmm. I have seen eye-to-eye with you on a lot of things pertaining to football. But I don't think Weis will resign, nor will he be fired, if Kansas has a disappointing season. Gill got axed by Zenger, but Gill was making no APPARENT adjustments. I'm all for bringing Mangino back, but if I were the AD I'd finesse the situation a little more. I'd ask Iowa State for permission to talk with Mangino and discuss the possibility of his return at the end of Weis' tenure. It's clear to me that Weis is acting in good faith (that his interest really IS improvement) and that he is trying different things to make those interests reality. But Kansas is going to be in the market for a coach between two and three years from now, and I see absolutely nothing wrong with negotiations that put Mangino in the mix. I also agree with you about not jumping to the conclusion that our defense is where it needs to be. "Show me first," I say. To me, I see a range of 2 to 5 wins being possible, with 2 wins being probable.

Len Shaffer 3 months, 3 weeks ago

For God sake, enough with the freakin' Saint Mangino talk, already!!! He's not coming back!

Joe Ross 3 months, 3 weeks ago

His coming back is not entirely the point, though you oughtn't to begrudge peoples' harmless musings. If you don't agree or you are averse to the subject, you are free to divert your gaze elsewhere and spare your blood pressure 20 points or so. LOL!

Glen Miller 3 months, 3 weeks ago

Thank you for being realistic..... I've been getting hammered on here for saying we'll be lucky to win 3, maybe 4..... but bowl eligible?? Come on. I'm all for having optimism for your team, but my optimism consists of not getting beat by 25 points or more on most weekends. We will be better and I think we will be competitive, but we are still a few years from competing for bowls.

Doug Cramer 3 months, 3 weeks ago

I'm with you J-Ross. It's possible Weis will go down swinging.

But here's the deal, we have approximately 75 on the roster. 21 of those players are seniors, in which many of those seniors are either starters or big time contributers. The cub board is in bad shape now, but really grim next season. A 2-10 or 3-9 season, along with the fact that there isn't much hope in the future may be enough for Zenger to pull the trigger.

The JUCO recruiting strategy is going to catch up to us because we lack talented underclassmen developing within the system. Basically the program is going to hell in a hand basket right in front of our eyes.

Regarding the defense, our D-line is in worse shape than I thought:

  1. Ben Goodman Jr
  2. Tyler Holmes So
  3. Andrew Bolton Jr
  4. Keon Stowers Sr
  5. Tedarian Johnson Sr
  6. TJ Semke Jr ???

Michael Reynolds is listed at 6 ft 1 and at Buck, not as a D-lineman.

Folks that is ALL we have. Am I missing anyone ? How can these guys keep up with the Big 12 offenses ?

This D-front is in big trouble from a depth and talent standpoint.

Brandon Mahon 3 months, 3 weeks ago

We also have 3 freshman dline and 3 judo dline coming in from this year's class. 3 of which had big time offers

Jim Jackson 3 months, 3 weeks ago

Anthony Olobia (turned down OU & Auburn) Damani Mosby (turned down KSU) Kapil Fletcher (turned down down MSU & CU)

Are going to be on campus in a few days. They are just the JUCOs, we have HS players coming too.

Doug Cramer 3 months, 3 weeks ago

Jim you're correct - Olobia, Mosby, and Fletcher may be huge pick ups if they can add depth right away.

Definitely good to see these guys coming in.

Curtis Stutz 3 months, 3 weeks ago

Not many defenses could have put up much better numbers with the offense handing the ball over on the wrong side of the field constantly. The defensive numbers might have actually been better with Waterboy 1st down punt tactics. Much, much better than you are giving it credit for. Sadly 3-9 would not be seen as the end of the world by any stretch, particularly if the offensive performance improves and games get tighter.

Jock Navels 3 months, 3 weeks ago

3-9, Weis goes. Mangino is not asked back. Zenger next hires Bobby Petrino.

Brandon Mahon 3 months, 3 weeks ago

Not alot of people understand that when an offense posses the ball for 2 minutes per drive, the defense suffers. They were a lot beget than numbers or rankings show. When they are on the field for 75% of the game that's a lot of yards adding up and people getting tired

Doug Cramer 3 months, 3 weeks ago

Brandon - wouldn't you agree though, that more time on the field should naturally lead to higher sack numbers ? Just from an opportunity stand point. Your D-line is on the field for a higher amount of snaps, therefore you should have a higher amount of sacks.

Brandon Mahon 3 months, 3 weeks ago

Not completely... you would think so but if the defense is on the field the whole game they do not get any rest... If they have no rest then the fuel tanks are empty. Most of the games last year did not get out of hand until the end of 3rd or 4th, a couple got out of hand before that. With a more stable offense and defense time to catch their breath you should and I do say should see a difference in numbers.

Aaron Paisley 3 months, 3 weeks ago

Doug, there is one HUGE flaw in your argument about sacks. When a team is trailing as frequently as KU has been, opposing teams run the ball much more frequently to run the clock out which means fewer opportunities to sack the QB.

A much measuring stick would be to look at the ratio of sacks, and hurries based on the total number of drop backs against KU last year. I don't know what number is for KU or how that number compares nationally, but that's the stat that is the best indicator of the DLINE ' S performance.

As for the Buck position, the primary purpose of that position is pass rushing and lines up on the DLine far more frequently than with the LB's. So while it may not technically be a DLine position, the Buck is basically the 4th DLine position.

Joe Ross 3 months, 3 weeks ago

In fairness, Doug, Aaron and Brandon make some good points.

Curtis Stutz 3 months, 3 weeks ago

Also those of us arguing that the defense was pretty good aren't arguing that it had a lot of depth.

Joe Ross 3 months, 3 weeks ago

Im more tired of losing seasons than Mangino talk.

Aaron Paisley 3 months, 3 weeks ago

Mangino had more losing seasons than winning seasons.

Joe Ross 3 months, 3 weeks ago

...because it takes a while to resurrect a program from life support. Which is exactly why Im not calling for Weis' head. Gill, being obviously clueless, was a different matter.

David Lara 3 months, 3 weeks ago

Scheming to get Mangino back is the very definition of asking for Weis's head. Perhaps you haven't yet realized they can't both be head coach?

Joe Ross 3 months, 3 weeks ago

Alternative reply: When was the last time we had a coach that didn't?

Doug Cramer 3 months, 3 weeks ago

It's unbelievable that people would rather have the worst program in all BCS conferences as opposed to admitting that Mangino is possibly the most successful coach in the history of this program. He also won a BCS bowl and National Coach of the Year to boot.

If you don't appreciate the excitement Mangino provided this program and his successes, then I can't help ya.

Jay Beakum 3 months, 3 weeks ago

He’s a coach not a woobie. Let it go.

Jim Jackson 3 months, 3 weeks ago

If your beloved Mangino was such a great HC we would not have gone 5-7 and 3-9 subsequent to the '09 season. He failed to recruit well even after all that momentum of winning 20 games in 2 seasons.

Weis is getting better players after our 1 game and 3 game win seasons; he kicked of 30 guys from the team, he had a big hole to clime out of. Get over Mangino Doug, I bet you still harp on ex girlfriends from 30 years ago on a daily basis. It's pathetic.

Joe Ross 3 months, 3 weeks ago

"If your beloved Mangino was such a great HC..."

He was.

"...we would not have gone (records listed)."

There were major distractions at that time that affected both coach and players alike. This is well documented.

"He failed to recruit well..."

Mangino's recruits were never five stars, but he took kids and over the course of time placed his imprint on them to get them to peak performance level. But his final recruits came to campus during a firestorm, amid the distractions noted above, and they remained unpolished, perhaps.

Mangino was and is an excellent coach, and to deny it is to deny solid reality.

For what it's worth, I don't recycle the glories of past romantic relationships.

Jim Jackson 3 months, 3 weeks ago

For what it's worth, I too, agree, that Mangino was a very good head coach, but for you to constantly get on his board and sing his praises as if he were Nick Saban is quite ludacris. He got VERY lucky with Todd Reesing; you think your boy Mangino knew Todd was going to be as good as he was? Furthermore, you seem to be placing a lot of blame on "distractions;" I'll give you that during the '10 season but the talent level was very anemic, hence why we had such poor seasons subsequent to that year (you think if we had OU talent we would be this bad?). The coach's on the staff could not stand Mangino's patronizing, bullying tactics and that effected the recruiting process due to the high turnover on his coaching staff. How do I know this? My good buddy was video coordinator during those times.

Joe Ross 3 months, 3 weeks ago

I dont get on this board and sing Mangino's praises like he was Nick Saban. I sing Mangino's praises like he is one of the greatest coaches at Kansas. If I have earned any reputation at all on these boards, I'd stake it all on the prospect that if Mangino returned success would follow. Furthermore, getting coaches to come here and produce success has proven difficult of late if you've been following Kansas football any. Nick Saban would never come, not even if hell froze over. Mangino might. And to that end, I DO sing the praises of what he has accomplished here, notwithstanding your disapproval. You ask if I thought Mangino knew that Reesing were going to be as good as he was, to which I answer that Mangino saw that potential in Reesing from the very start which is why he recruited him in the first place. Ergo, it wasn't "luck" as you mistakenly suggest. You also speak of reactions to Mangino's temperament. I don't ignore it, and if you've followed my trail of comments you'll see that I have addressed it. I'll do it again here by noting two things. One, that the nature of this sport is different. I see Bill Self chewing out guys on the basketball floor (you've seen how he talks to them too) and wonder why no one is talking about his temperament. Success doth cover over a multitude of sins! How much more then should we expect the coach of a sport more brutal than basketball in its nature to breathe fire? A football coach should be given more latitude and not less than the basketball coach. Emphasis on the "much" in "much more". Which segue's to my second point. Especially at Kansas, where the culture of football needs radical changes, you WANT that kind of temperament in a coach. Be it Mark Mangino, Nick Saban, or someone else. Tell that to your 10-4 good buddy.

Jim Jackson 3 months, 3 weeks ago

You know EXACTLY what I mean when I say Manigno got "lucky" with Todd. No need to be willingly naïve; unless of course you knew that a 5'10 kid with his only other offer coming from Duke was going to set KU records and be an All American.

With the round robin schedule we do not get to evade OU or Texas and now we cannot schedule 1 extra cupcake per year. Furthermore, kicking off 30 players in his first season made it even more difficult. Weis has had 2 seasons, now is the time to win and he should be judged on this year.

Getting on this board and denigrating the staff after only 2 seasons and claiming that Mangino would be our immediate savior is frivolous, redundant garbage albeit Weis would leave his successor far more talent then Gill was left with in '11; no thanks to Mangino. P.S Thanks for the lesson on intensity pertaining to football. I played the game, I'm well aware.

Joe Ross 3 months, 3 weeks ago

Contrary to your emphatic language, I know NOTHING of the kind! Mangino could have turned his back on Reesing like anyone else for the same reasons they did. Only he didnt. And why? Because he saw something. Being the only one to see something where others haven't is the OPPOSITE of luck. On the contrary it represents foresight, knowledge, and informed intent. It HAD to! So as much as you try to insist Mangino got lucky, your pressing of the point only demonstrates to what lengths you will stubbornly go to prove a point that has no proof. If you charge that I have denigrated anyone you should prove it, or otherwise show yourself to be quick-tongued and slow-witted. For your information, I played the game as well. State Champs 4A '89-'90, though anyone with half a brain realizes that personal history doesn't necessarily translate to intelligent analysis. Great attempt at throwing the kitchen sink though. Fail.

Jim Jackson 3 months, 3 weeks ago

I don't need to get into frivolous arguments with a guy who keeps dreaming about the return of Mark Mangino; that notion in itself is peculiar enough. Your feigned explanation as to why I continue to argue with you is quite comical, though.

Joe Ross 3 months, 3 weeks ago

On the contrary, you are the punch line here. You lay unfounded charges of my denigrating the team, you don't support them with a single shred of evidence, and then you speak from the opposite side of your mouth about frivolous arguments. You really ARE funny! As describing your own perspective has been shown to be problematic enough; you ought to be more careful in describing others'. In either case, it's an embarrassment. But for the entertainment of us all, put my folly on display since that is your case, and show us my recent verbal assault on any part of this Kansas team. I'll up the ante by admitting I was wrong. (Unless your words carry no weight, of course.)

Joe Ross 3 months, 3 weeks ago

LOL. Aggravation. Thats what you call it when you can't support your own point of view with any evidence. Hey, I get it!

Micky Baker 3 months, 3 weeks ago

In fairness, Mangino was lucky with Reesing in Reesing's Sophomore year. Nobody saw that coming, not even Mangino had a goal of a 12-1 season and an Orange Bowl win. That wasn't expected by anybody, not even Mangino due to Reesing being named starting QB early on. There were several games in 2008 and 2009 that KU would have won if Reesing didn't get greedy with the ball. One of them that was the most evident was at South Florida with Kansas ahead and Reesing tries for the big ball when KU was ahead when all he had to do was throw the ball away and South Florida would have had 80 or more yards to go instead of just one or two first downs to get into FG position to win that game as the time ticked away. KU didn't get better each year Reesing was the starter. They got worse each year. Granted, they played TT, Texas, and OU in those years. TT creamed KU 63-21 in Lawrence with Reesing. Reesing never beat Texas or OU. In fact, Reesing telegraphed a pass right to OU's LB for about 90 INT return TD for OU in Lawrence in 2008 or 2009. Reesing never had the team close to beating either OU or Texas. The only time Mangino had a chance to beat Texas was when Vince Young was there and that was our defense and Reesing wasn't there.

Micky Baker 3 months, 3 weeks ago

There were distractions such as Mangino being harassed by Gray-Little. Lew Perkins was also being harassed. The ticket scandal had something to do with that with some people blaming that on Perkins, which was absurd on its face.

It is probably prudent at this juncture to drop the Mangino talk. Some can dwell on that if they want, but it is actually a distraction that is being created by the fans that talk about it. It was a distraction when the fans were on Mangino for going off a couple of guys for show boating on punt/kick returns. Of course, they shouldn't have done that and Mangino probably should have handled it a little better on the side line, but who actually went through a logical reprimand process on Mangino and was Gray-Little stepping on Perkins' toes? I would have to say that Perkins leaving tells that story. He probably had enough of that crap. As I recall, Gray-Little came on and this immediately began to happen inside the athletic department. She should have dealt with Perkins and not bypassing him by going directly to Mangino over those incidents.

It still seems fishy that right after KU beat K-State in 2004, Bill Snyder retired, then all of a sudden in 2008 and 2009 all three coaches that came from Snyder's program were fired. It was Leach. Then it was what's his name at South Florida. Then it was Mangino, or whatever order it was. Then when they all lost their jobs, Snyder came back. That seems very fishy. Then some politically-correct, pretentious Gray-Little comes in and shakes things up and causes a distraction. Then it took awhile to hire an permanent AD after that, and it shouldn't have taken that long. That hurt the program too.

We have to talk about the realities, don't we? Gray-Little started the firestorm and perpetuated it.

John Fitzgerald 3 months, 3 weeks ago

There's a difference between accepting he was a great coach and worshiping the ground he walks on. I'm beginning to think you have a picture of Mangino on your bathroom mirror and every morning you whisper, "I miss you" with adorable pouty lips. We get it, he was a good coach, possibly great, but he isn't our coach anymore. People are going to start discrediting your posts the more you laud this guy. So please, for the sake of your image, give it up already.

David Lara 3 months, 3 weeks ago

Joe Ross. Let's try to live in reality. Mangino is ancient history and it's time to move on. What are you trying to accomplish by scheming up scenarios of failure for the very good current coaching staff in order to bring back a former coach who squandered away the greatest success and momentum the program has every enjoyed? All the while glossing over the current season and players working to improve and produce a season we can all be proud of.

The Deification is amazing to me. How much are you people willing to overlook? You want to give Mangino all the credit for the best season we have seen and none of the blame for the colossal nose dive that followed. I got news for you. If you take a KU football team to a 12 win season and are out of a job 2 years later. THAT'S ON YOU. There's no way ANY AD is taking your job away from you if you don't let him. If you 1.) capitalize on your success on the recruiting trail 2.) maintain your locker room and keep your guys motivated and bought in to the winning attitude, 3.) continue to get it done every saturday on the field then the AD will lose his job trying to get you fired. Can you please tell us all which of those things that Mangino failed to do were out of his control? I will never understand the people that want to just gloss over the many ways that man failed when he had everything to work with. I can only guess such people don't really demand very much of anyone in their daily lives or have very much demanded of them if they are able to excuse away such a blatant lack of responsibility. He may be a great OC, but he would have to prove a lot before he is the man I want running the show. The bottom line is he deserved what he got.

Joe Ross 3 months, 3 weeks ago

Very simple, but pointed response. If Kansas football ever "died", it's epitaph might read, "Here below lies Kansas Football; Too Nice To Win."

David Lara 3 months, 3 weeks ago

There is nothing pointed in the least about that reply. In fact that's about as vague and deflecting an answer as you could make while still referencing the basic topic of "Kansas Football". Try again to address which of the following failures were not in Mangino's control:

1) Horrible recruiting gains coming off the most successful period in history AND state of the art facilities that have contributed to the large improvement in recruiting ever since the Mangino regime was over. 2) Inability to maintain team morale and keep players willing to lay their ass on the line for their coach. 3) Horrible mismanagement of the statistically most successful players in school history no more than 2 seasons later. Either he's lost the locker room or unable to make adjustments, wouldn't you say?

Until you can explain Mangino's immense failures, THE LARGEST IN SCALE COMMITTED BY ANY KANSAS COACH IN HISTORY IN RELATION TO THE LEVEL OF SUCCESS YOU CONTINUE TO POINT OUT, you really have no credibility in bringing up his name any longer. Any one of these failures are unacceptible for a coach at Kansas, and in combination they are abhorable. I'm sure we will all be eager to hear you take the HEAD COACH off the hook for the above.

Joe Ross 3 months, 3 weeks ago

I think you'll find no ambiguity in the following statements...

Joe Ross 3 months, 3 weeks ago

I'm your Huckleberry.

To suggest in any way that Mark Mangino's "failure to success ratio" is larger than other Kansas coaches' is to put on public display a level of density not seen in any matters related to Kansas football since Turner Gill last walked the sidelines as Kansas head coach. Is that pointed enough for ya? Is that in any way vague? Good. Because one by one I'm going to dismantle every short-sighted assertion you put forward, answer them directly, and substitute in the place of your unwarranted hubris a distinct kind of clarity that your own perspective lacks.

You begin by supposing a direct proportionality between a team's success one year and the ability to recruit in the next. While one may be related to the other, the relationship is sometimes more loose than you evidently assume. Here is an article which you should find very informative. It is timely, written just about two weeks ago, and describes how there are more variables involved in recruiting than simply the win-loss tally of the previous year, how the timing of those variables can lead to a recruiting class that is not as stellar as some might assume given the context of success, and it distances this result from the quality of the coach. http://www.courier-journal.com/story/sports/columnists/himmelsbach/2014/07/17/adam-himmelsbach-bobby-petrino-struggling-get-recruits-first-year-louisville/12804763/

In addition to the both the nuances of recruiting and generalities one might distill from the article, there are specifics relevant to Kansas that should not be ignored. One great season does not a great reputation build, even if a coach has masterfully crafted the conditions to bring that great season about. It can not be argued that Kansas' magical season was still viewed as an aberration by many in the country (evidently including you), and surely this was not lost on recruits. In essence, between a choice of Oklahoma and Kansas after that season, Oklahoma was still Oklahoma, and Kansas was still viewed as Kansas. Kansas' season out of nowhere was not like, for example, a Kansas State or Missouri team that might have made it equally as far. At least their accomplishment to that level would not be seen as surprising, albeit major bowl appearances by either are not a great deal more frequent than Kansas' (in the 10 years prior to 2008, each played in one BCS bowl). Mangino took a program that had six losing seasons prior to his arrival, and it took some time to resurrect it with life, but he did so. More on that in a bit. It may not have helped football as much as some might assume that Kansas won the National Championship in basketball the same season as the Orange Bowl was won, because the accomplishment in football did not stand out singularly. It's status was perhaps trumped by the reminder that Kansas was, in fact, a "basketball school".

Joe Ross 3 months, 3 weeks ago

Having put some challenges to me, on this point I issue one to you. Since the premise of your question deals with recruiting ability, please regale us with some intelligible perspective from the vantage point of a recruit on Kansas' reputation and the prospect of Kansas' being able to put him in the pros (even considering the Orange Bowl victory), and do this comparatively versus other programs in the Big 12 and nationally.

David Lara 3 months, 3 weeks ago

This isn't basketball. A recruit getting to the pros doesn't have near as much to do with the program as with basketball, especially since we are not dealing with 5 star guys here. In the 3 star realm, the pros are such a long shot. We can only look at the obvious so why don't we just stick with that? I can see why you would love to just bypass that proving ground, but humor me.

If Mangino had a string of 2 stars that were going to outperform their ranking such as those that brought the famous 12 win season, then no harm no foul and we could all rest easy that we have a savant for a coach who can make water out of wine. That did not happen. Recruiting classes continued to not even sniff improvement and the guys Mangino brought in did not do anything to maintain the success of the system, or, perhaps be even better. Anyone who could not be convinced to choose KU after the big success were never going to even consider KU. There were plenty of eyes that were opened to the success and the pros that were produced, and the only possible excuse for not improving the recruiting classes is lack of effort or just not having any recruiting skill. Here's the magic question that is still lacking a response: WHO'S FAULT??? If Mangino were AD, what would he say?

Recruiting was instantly upgraded when Mangino was shown the door and it has seemed to be pretty consistently better for 2 guys that have no amazing winning seasons or coach of the year hardware to show off to anyone.

Joe Ross 3 months, 3 weeks ago

  1. You obviously didn't answer the question because you could not. 2. You obviously had no intelligent response to the article because it debunks your basic premise. 3. In light of these points the above comment of yours is typically dull and uninspiring of thought. Your believability with regard to recruiting ebbs with every comment you leave on the subject. As you haven't the first clue about recruiting, you should reread the article and try again.

David Lara 3 months, 3 weeks ago

Didn't read the article and I won't be needing any homework, thank you. Your level of excuse making is comical. You must be a politician. And if you are not you need to look into it. You sound like that mother who thinks her son can do no wrong. HOLD YOUR SON ACCOUNTABLE, it will mean he is a man.

"But... but... but, there are variables... several variables."

Welcome to big time college football, ma'am. Hell, welcome to life. That's where a little thing called planning comes in handy. Every other college coach has to deal with it too, and if they don't, they can only blame themselves. If you like a coach that holds players accountable and tells it like it is, as you claim you do, then you need you need to hold HIM accountable. Prove it by answering the magic question... WHO'S FAULT???

If you deny that these failures I have outlined are unacceptable then we have nothing more to discuss. If you feel they are indeed unacceptable then ultimate control and final authority must lie with one person. Otherwise there is chaos. Where does accountability for a football team lie? I will unequivocally end my part of this discussion unless your answer matches mine. I just don't have time to argue with excuse making pedantists when it comes to authority that should lie, as it always has, in the sole domain of the head coach.

Joe Ross 3 months, 3 weeks ago

I have a simple yet pointed response. What is comical is the fact that you continue to demand answers, but you open state you're not going to answer one put to you. In the words of John McEnroe, "You can NOT be serious!"

Why my insistence? Because it deals with issues that would inform and update your opinion about what goes on in recruiting; and after all, that was the thrust of one of YOUR first points! To now be so dead set on dodging full discussion of an issue you brought up means that you can not be regarded as credible.

Joe Ross 3 months, 3 weeks ago

As far as inability to maintain team morale and not having players willing to put it out there for the embattled coach, that is easy enough to disprove. Consider Kerry Meiers' take: http://www2.kusports.com/videos/2009/...
"I really don’t understand why there is an investigation. I have only been to one football program and I think the way they run the program here is probably similar to how they run things at numerous facilities and programs throughout the country. College football is a tough game and EVERYTHING that comes with it is tough as well. If you are going to try and get something done a lot of times you are going to have to raise your voice and say some things to get people moving. Some of that stuff has to be said."
Or, if you prefer, consider the recent comments of one Todd Reesing, who had the vantage point of being the team's leader and who I assume you would count among your "statistically most significant players", as they pertain to advice for Iowa State.
“Give him some space. Give him some freedom to do what he feels he needs to do,” Reesing said. “And eventually, he’ll have that offense looking good.”
Reesing also RECENTLY said of the investigation during the late autumn of 2009, "It was a weird deal. I don’t really know where it stemmed from. I’m sure there were mixed feelings by players about coaches, but there are mixed feelings by players about coaches on any team. Some coaches coach hard and you get yelled at. It’s kind of part of the deal. You know what you’re getting yourself into when you’re playing football. I never had an issue with coach Mangino."
And why didn't he? Because he appreciated that football coaches have tempers, as evident from his own comments. Duh! Reesing holds this pespective now after having had due time to reflect. Oh, but he didn't support Mangino during the firestorm of controversy, right? I mean, if he did that would not be accurate according to your idea that no one was willing to lay their @$$ on the line for Mangino. But hold the phone. Asked if Mangino had lost the support of his team prior the the Missouri game of '09, Reesing said emphatically, "No. Not at all."

David Lara 3 months, 3 weeks ago

Yes, by all means let's take the players most required to put on a happy face for the public at face value when they are forced to answer tough questions from the media. Anyone who has bullying issues such as mangino is going to pick and choose where he places his message. I doubt star qb or receiver have much perspective on the issue.

Jim Jackson 3 months, 3 weeks ago

Sorry Joe, but your assertion that Kansas is still a "basketball school" and one great season (albeit it was 2) does not supplant better recruiting is not going to validate the short comings of Mangino's inability to recruit better players after coming off the most successful back to back seasons in school history. We won 20 games from 08-09, built a state of the art workout facility that rivals any other in the country and Turner Gill and Weis were still left with very anemic talent; and that is putting it nicely. Plain and simple, he did not get it done, for a variety of reasons, one of which one was the high turnover he had on his staff due to the patronizing way he would address his assistant coaches.

I will say this and if I am wrong, I'll be more than happy to admit it in a couple years but Charlie is recruiting better players coming off winning 4 games in 2 seasons than Mangino did winning 20 in '08-09. I am not saying he was not a very good coach because he was, but he failed to procure the type of talent that BCS winning teams obtain.

Joe Ross 3 months, 3 weeks ago

"...but he failed to procure the type of talent that BCS winning teams obtain." Like Louisville? It's evident that you did not give a shred of thought to the article posted. It's insightful. You should read it. After you do, tell me why the factors cited in the article did NOT apply to Mangino after the 07-08 season. Gentlemen's agreement: I'll give you a fair response if you do that much.

Joe Ross 3 months, 3 weeks ago

LOL! So let me get this. You say that NO players put their backsides on the line for him. Then being confronted with information that the whole of the leadership of the team supported him, your argument morphs to "Oh, well...the leadership is EXPECTED to support him!" At the very least this amounts to an open admission that your first statement was in fact wrong. Furthermore, in answer to your latest point, Reesing is not required to put on a happy face NOW. He is not playing for the University! And yet comments were made by Reesing as recently as the last several weeks with Mangino's hire at Iowa. You've got some brass having in effect just called him a liar and that his comments are disingenuous. Excuse me if I take Reesing's words on his feelings over YOUR words on them. Oh, and FYI: more players than the receiver and QB came out in support of him. Therefore, it STILL remains that not only were you vague and ambiguous, but you were wrong! You grow easier to rebut the further you talk as you trip yourself up with these kinds of missteps.

Joe Ross 3 months, 3 weeks ago

Yes, there are players who felt that Mangino was too "tough" (to borrow Meier's word), but it certainly none of them represented the leadership of the team. Not Briscoe, not Thornton, not Pick, nor a whole slate of leaders who instead viewed the temperament of their coach as being normal...for a COACH. If you suppose for a second that just because coaches' tempers don't often make headlines, that this equates with their not being temperamental then you have more to consider than what your current belief system might allow. So why did it stand out at Kansas? Well for starters, Kansas had not known great success in football and even with a small measure of it came a spotlight that shone on the program as a whole and on Mangino in particular. Two, I accept that his temper was perhaps more so than the average coach's (though I argue both that it needed to be, given the state of the Kansas program and that much hay should not be made over something that does not amount to presence or absence of a behavior, but degree when compared to others'). Third, it seems likely that Lew Perkins had misjudged how good of a coach Mangino actually was (the fact that Turner Gill could be named his replacement lends credulity to this point of view) and thought him dispensible. Ironically, some fans are under this same misguided notion. Lew could have dealt with the issue in-house, and if he did I'd lay wager to the probability that Kansas would not have fallen as far as it has in the post-Mangino era.
Now before you attempt to divert attention to whether Mangino's temper was justifiable or not, let's focus on your statement that you made with regard to the players' perspectives. It remains that in your assertion that he lost the support of his players, you have obviously been "vague" and not nearly pointed enough. Inevitably. Until you can explain these ambiguous and inaccurate statements which do not square with ALL of the players including the team's leadership, you have lost credibility.

Joe Ross 3 months, 3 weeks ago

As far as losing "...the lockerroom" and being "...unable to make adjustments", you take a point of view which is kindergartenishly simplistic (as you did above with failing to appreciate all of the variables that go into recruiting). You speak as if events that transpired outside of the program did not impact upon the focus on the game. Let's once again isolate comments from Todd Reesing to provide a perspective on what was going on:

"There’s been some certain things that have been said, but I really don’t want to focus on that right now. It is what it is. It’s happening and it has nothing to do with playing Texas, so I don’t really see the relevancy in me talking about that. I told them (teammates) that this was going to be something that was going to be hard to handle," Reesing told reporters. "As you can tell, I’ve been standing here five minutes and I’ve answered zero questions about the game against Texas this Saturday. So needless to say, it’s going to be something that we’re going to have to deal with. We’re going to have to find a way to stay focused on this football game because as you can see, the focus is not there from things outside of our program."

It's very easy to isolate perspectives and then construct the vacuum within which to consider them. This is your mistake with your third point. One does not need the advantage of retrospect to have his intuition informed that a lockerroom being lost under such circumstances is not a reflection on pure coaching ability.

David Lara 3 months, 3 weeks ago

And who is responsible for getting the player's heads in the game? Only individuals, not a team, but individuals with no leadership, will get so distracted by outside circumstances that they implode in the fashion that occured in '09. Either that, or they actually harbor some strong feelings on the matter that conflict with them heeding any attempts from leadership to get them focused on what's happening on the field or in the locker room. I am only offering some possible reasons, and as we roll through any number of others, whatever they may be, whether they can be proven or not, I hope for god's sake it will somehow bring us back to the magic question: WHO'S FAULT??? Tough guy Mangino in the position of AD would probably not mince words with his answer.

Joe Ross 3 months, 3 weeks ago

Is this comment really to be taken seriously? Before I spend any effort responding I honestly want to know.

Joe Ross 3 months, 3 weeks ago

Now, having unambiguously and pointedly addressed all of your points. Here, with the help of Wiki, are some of my own.

Mark Mangino became the first KU football coach with a winning career record since Jack Mitchell in 1966. While at Kansas, Mangino led the Jayhawks to 19 consecutive weeks ranked in the AP and/or USA Today polls (2007–08), 20 consecutive wins in a 2-year period for the first time in school history, set home attendance average records in each of the last 4 seasons (2004–2008), led KU to its first appearance in national polls since 1996 and to the school’s highest ranking ever at #2, produced the top 3 total offense seasons in school history, the top two passing seasons and two of the top three scoring seasons and won three Bowl games—the same number they had won in their 102-year history combined prior to his arrival. For his accomplishments in 2007, he was named the 2007 National Coach of the Year by the Associated Press, ESPN/ABC, The Sporting News, Football Writers Association, Walter Camp Football Foundation, National Sportscasters and Sportswriters Association, American Football Coaches Association, the Maxwell Football Club (George Munger Award), and he has been named the Woody Hayes National Coach of the Year. He was named the Big 12 Coach of the Year by the Big 12 Coaches and Big 12 Co-Coach of the Year by the Associated Press. Upon winning these Coach of the Year awards, he became the only NCAA coach in history to win both the Frank Broyles Award as the nation's top assistant coach and all the major National Coach of the Year awards. With 50 victories, Mangino has the second-most victories in Kansas coaching history. He is the ONLY coach in the history of Kansas football to win a major bowl.

David Lara 3 months, 3 weeks ago

...and left the program in the exact same position it was when he arrived. Do you deny that???? Again, the magic question you don't want to answer... WHO'S FAULT??? No one's? Is is the responsibility of no one to take success and maintain it? To find whatever is left to improve and improve it? I'm pretty sure that if Mangino were AD and saw all that momentum squandered as quickly as it came, he would go junk yard dog on that clown coach and bounce him right out the door. Too many failures in such a small amount of time to have any hope for him getting his sh * t together. I'm not saying it would be the right move, but it can't really be questioned.

Joe Ross 3 months, 3 weeks ago

Yes I whole-heartedly deny that Mangino was responsible for the state of the program at the time he left. Absolutely! Implicit in this perspective is that the situation was multi-variable, and if you would like me to spell it out for you once again I will. It's almost comical how quickly you reduce complex situations to single variables (e.g., that one person and one person only is responsible for an outcome). You question, for example, what might happen if Mangino were the AD. I wonder why your mind doesn't take the next logical step and consider that there WAS an AD other than Mangino that might have had an impact on the situation. This is really not difficult stuff here, and I can dumb it down if you prefer. Let me know.

David Lara 3 months, 3 weeks ago

Just so you know , an AD has no control over recruiting, locker rooms, game plan or team morale, ALL of which were the direct cause of the failures that have to be accounted for. WHO'S FAULT??? Where does the buck stop? An AD can only ruin such elements of a football team if the coach lets him, which would still lay all culpability on the coach for allowing anything outside to affect the team. All you seem to do is insult me repeatedly, which is pretty pathetic, while giving no accountability to anyone, least of all the man who is by title supposed to be in control of all such elements, or a proper explanation for why it was the responsibility of someone other than the head coach.

Joe Ross 3 months, 3 weeks ago

Your question has an easy answer. Ive led you to water but evidently you're not thirsty. As far as insults, you levied the first and I can prove it. Secondly, it is insulting to come on here, ask three questions and have them answered, but FAIL to consider some put to you. You wanna talk about what I have repeatedly done? Ive repeatedly asked you to address the article posted, but your evasive maneuvers are unparalleled in the history of these comments. Do try to shed some hypocrisy by not leaving unanswered a question that was ASKED of you before DEMANDING answers of your own. You will then get your response.

David Lara 3 months, 3 weeks ago

YOU DENY THAT THE FAILURES THAT LED TO THE HORRIFIC END OF THE MANGINO COACHING REGIME, THE '09 SEASON IN PARTICULAR, WERE THE FAULT OF THE HEAD COACH. Great, I think we have all we need at this point. This pathetic conversation has officially reached it's end.

Joe Ross 3 months, 3 weeks ago

Until you address the overwhelming evidence presented against your point of view, you have no credibility, sir!

David Lara 3 months, 3 weeks ago

Again, I don't claim to know the ins and outs of WHY Mangino was a miserable failure in the end. The why doesn't matter, because I once again want you to find a way to justify giving the blame to anyone but the head coach. The only conclusion that matters from any of this... WHO'S FAULT??? You're on the clock...

Joe Ross 3 months, 3 weeks ago

Your premise is wrong. One person is not solely responsible (see comments above). And you're not off the hook. Your credibility is still dangling in limbo until you address the points above satisfactorily. So far, bupkes. Start over. You're on the clock.

David Lara 3 months, 3 weeks ago

And this is why you have no ground to stand on when you say you like a tough coach, one that hold his players accountable, who gives them the tough love because they need to hear it and realize that they are accountable for their actions, for the level of effort they put into their role, for planning for their own improvement, for their responsibility to the rest of the team. You don't want that kind of coach! You can't even demand that of him, how can you want him to demand it of his players??

Joe Ross 3 months, 3 weeks ago

The irony of your case is that in your final sentence, you ask how can one make demands if they can't shoulder reasonable demands placed upon them. Yet you in your unending wisdom made demands of me with regard to my credibility, which were duly addressed; yet when asked to answer in the same manner that you yourself prescribed you emphatically state you will not. What this reveals is that even you yourself do not fundamentally accept the points you make in your own arguments. You have continually been given the opportunity to become informed on an issue that you yourself brought up. But you will not maintain a level playing field, as it were, by adhering to the same standard you demand of others. How can one make demands, indeed! You could not, would not with a fox. You will not, will not in a box. You do not like Green Eggs and Ham evidently. But you should try them...

David Lara 3 months, 3 weeks ago

Are you saying I'm accountable to jump through your hoops? I am not, to be sure. Therefore I owe you nothing. And since you can't even hold the head football coach accountable to his responsiblities assumed upon signing his contract, I don't think very highly of any demands you may place on me on a message board. You're schtick is old and tired. Do whatever you want, think whatever you want, just don't ever blame a head coach for anything ever again. You have lost all credibility to do so.

Joe Ross 3 months, 3 weeks ago

Ladies and Gentlemen we have a GENIUS! You are NOT accountable to jump through hoops. "UNLESS..."

Unless you expect people to do the same thing, that is. When you say, for example, that (paraphrasing), "You (meaning ME) have lost credibility with ME (meaning you) until you do 'such and such'", then you are asking for the same kind of circus side-show hoop-jumping that you seem to have a problem with. You're a two-faced hypocrite! And for the record, just how dumb are you anyway? The greatest coach ever at Kansas, and you want to talk failures? The name "David Lara" should be forever synonymous with hypocrisy and lack of inspiration. The sad part is that somewhere in all of your post I sense a kind of intelligence. You evidently dont know how to employ it however. For example, you speak of blaming head coaches, as if Ive tried to do that. How in the world can anyone take you seriously? On the contrary, my comments have been more exculpatory of head coaches in hot water because the scope of variables I consider--many of which lie outside of their control (which is a point you have seemingly taken me to task for)--is much greater than yours! Your argument is backwards. According to your own line of reasoning, you should be arguing that I dont EXCUSE a had coach for anything "...ever again." Do you even know up from down right now?

John Fitzgerald 3 months, 3 weeks ago

Tell me ... How does talking about Mangino make losing any better? You seem like a smart guy. Maybe your discussions should use more of your education, and less of your frustration. And fyi, I like Mangino and didn't like seeing him go, but what does that change about this season? Nothing. Until he "comes" back, I could care less.

Brent Held 3 months, 3 weeks ago

I just want to play mizzou is that too much to ask?

Joe Ross 3 months, 3 weeks ago

Right now? Definitely. Ask again in 2-3 years.

Mike Barnhart 3 months, 3 weeks ago

I see 8 chances to win and 4 "pray it's not a blowout" losses. Here's what Charlie needs to do to keep the wolves away from his door: win 4, compete hard in 4 and don't get embarrassed in all four of the others.

Ethan Berger 3 months, 3 weeks ago

It all comes down to our offense and being able to hold the ball. It was always shocking watching them being able to put a drive together. We've had arguably the worst receiving corps since '10. Our qbs have been inconsistent but last year a large part was because our receivers did nothing. If they can catch the ball and create space, it will allow our defense to rest and adjust. How many times did our D force a TO last year only to be on the field 2 minutes later? I can see anywhere from 2 wins to 6 wins. All depends on if the O can drive down the field.

Lucas Town 3 months, 3 weeks ago

Where do we go if Cozart struggles this year? Millweard or Cummings? With a new offense this year I just don't see us winning a lot of games. Cozart is such an unproven passer. If I were an opposing coach I would make the passing game beat me. Load up the box, shut down the run. We have good running backs, but that hasn't mattered the past few years. If this senior class doesn't win many games, 2015 is in worse shape due to heavy graduation in 2014 (mentioned earlier, and I agree). It will be 2 more years before we see any real change in what's happening with this team.

I predict this team goes 2-10. We lose to Duke and everyone else in the Big 12 says to their players, do you want to be like the West Virginia of 2013 losing to KU?

Doug Cramer 3 months, 3 weeks ago

Lucas Town - you are one of the few on here that actually preaches reality. You're dang right opposing defenses are going to load the box. Cozart's arm looked very inaccurate last season. Will he even have time in the pocket ? We also have an unproven offensive line.

Brandon Mahon 3 months, 3 weeks ago

There were times in practice last year where people said he was as good or better than heaps.... sadly that's not saying much right now

Jim Jackson 3 months, 3 weeks ago

He was very good in the spring game; QB's were live, even on blitz's. I've told Doug this numerous times as he did not watch but he clearly only absorbs information that allows him to disparage the current staff and team.

Aaron Paisley 3 months, 3 weeks ago

Doug, your comments consistently make me believe that you have never played or coached the game of football.

2 reasons to believe Cozart will be better. 1) Players typically get better with more experience. 2) The offensive playbook this year is much simpler which means Cozart should be able to process what he sees much quicker and make more decisive decisions.

Combine the dumbed down playbook with Cozart getting over his freshmen jitters, there's not a legitimate reason to think he can't throw for about 55% completion this year with about 2,000-2,500 yards (roughly 150-200 yards per game) with about 20 TDs. Those are not elite numbers by any stretch of the imagination, but they are a realistic goal for Cozart this year and if he hits those numbers, KU's going to have a chance to pull some upsets.

As for the OLine, there are ways to mask weaknesses when the spread offense is the base offense. Line up the OLine in wider than normal splits and you force the defense to have to travel further to get to the QB. The extra time this creates gives Cozart the extra time find an open receiver. If the DLine cheats and doesn't honor the wide splits, then a dump off to the RB in the flats will make a defense pay.

Doug Cramer 3 months, 3 weeks ago

Aaron - I remember last July and August, you, Kellerman, Kingfisher, and a handful of others, CONSTANTLY bashed my "realistic" take of the upcoming season. CONSTANTLY. You constantly bashed my 3-9 prediction, along with my prediction that KU wouldn't hold up in the trenches. Well I hate to tell you but ALL of that came to fruition.

It makes me wonder if YOU ever played football, if you think this team has the talent and depth in the trenches to succeed in this league, because IF you know football...you know that the trenches is where performance starts.

Are you kidding me ? Can you name a single player on this team that has consistently succeeded at KU...other than Ben Heeney ?

IF you really know football...and thats an IF....then your mind is being clouded by the kool-aid.

There is absolutely nothing proven about this team...other than Ben Heeney. Nothing. Not even Coach Weis has PROVEN that he can succeed at the college level. Which is why most of the national college football analysts were scratching their heads the day Weis was hired.

Micky Baker 3 months, 3 weeks ago

Doug,

You're acting like you're an expert because you guessed right, and that's all you did.

I think they were shaking their heads because Weis took the job at Kansas, by the way.

Savion Havon 3 months, 3 weeks ago

You go with Cummings who clearly out performed all the qb's in the spring game. The spread that Reagan gas brought in falls right into his skill set. Even Heaps saw that which is why he left. Our teams during the stretch he was the qb were competitive moved the ball and hey who can forget up on Texas with a few minutes to go bad lose playing prevent defense. Double overtime TT and let's be honest Reagan isn't here to limit the play book and run options to the short side of the field he's here to score and win.

John Fitzgerald 3 months, 3 weeks ago

Undefeated ... I'll be the first one to call it ...

Brandon Mahon 3 months, 3 weeks ago

Just to let everyone know we just picked up acommitment from a OL that has offers from ALL the big boys and decommitted from UT. And people say they aren't recruiting

David Lara 3 months, 3 weeks ago

Well, I bet Mangino could have gotten him to commit to KU the first time! Oh... maybe not.

Joe Ross 3 months, 3 weeks ago

Left this comment for you above as well (in response to another short-sighted post):

You begin by supposing a direct proportionality between a team's success one year and the ability to recruit in the next. While one may be related to the other, the relationship is sometimes more loose than you evidently assume. Here is an article which you should find very informative. It is timely, written just about two weeks ago, and describes how there are more variables involved in recruiting than simply the win-loss tally of the previous year, how the timing of those variables can lead to a recruiting class that is not as stellar as some might assume given the context of success, and it distances this result from the quality of the coach. http://www.courier-journal.com/story/sports/columnists/himmelsbach/2014/07/17/adam-himmelsbach-bobby-petrino-struggling-get-recruits-first-year-louisville/12804763/

In addition to the both the nuances of recruiting and generalities one might distill from the article, there are specifics relevant to Kansas that should not be ignored. One great season does not a great reputation build, even if a coach has masterfully crafted the conditions to bring that great season about. It can not be argued that Kansas' magical season was still viewed as an aberration by many in the country (evidently including you), and surely this was not lost on recruits. In essence, between a choice of Oklahoma and Kansas after that season, Oklahoma was still Oklahoma, and Kansas was still viewed as Kansas. Kansas' season out of nowhere was not like, for example, a Kansas State or Missouri team that might have made it equally as far. At least their accomplishment to that level would not be seen as surprising, albeit major bowl appearances by either are not a great deal more frequent than Kansas' (in the 10 years prior to 2008, each played in one BCS bowl). Mangino took a program that had six losing seasons prior to his arrival, and it took some time to resurrect it with life, but he did so. It may not have helped football as much as some might assume that Kansas won the National Championship in basketball the same season as the Orange Bowl was won, because the accomplishment in football did not stand out singularly. It's status was perhaps trumped by the reminder that Kansas was, in fact, a "basketball school".

John Fitzgerald 3 months, 3 weeks ago

I'm confused.... Who's our coach again? Weis or Mangino?

John Fitzgerald 3 months, 3 weeks ago

Also, I have a question for Joe Ross. What point are you exactly trying to get across with all this Mangino talk? And please don't write me a sermon because I don't have the time or patience to read it. I'm asking this question for you, not me. People are going to stop reading your responses and your credibility will soon be shot if you continue on this path.

Joe Ross 3 months, 3 weeks ago

Im not here for a popularity contest. If that were the case I would answer with no rebuttals. But as others are free to, I will not spend one second defending the privilege to do similarly. As for the question of why i speak of Mangino, it's clear. While I dont defend everything he ever said or did, it is unquestionably true that the culture of Kansas football and a large contingent of fans is not ready to square with the reality that to elevate the program may take a temperament similar to his, because it maximizes productiveness from the players (which is exactly what Kansas needs). So says some of the greatest players who played for him, who happened to achieve the greatest achievements in the history of Kansas football. As we are heading into a new season, it is not curious that such thoughts would occur now as opposed to some other time. And finally, people who think Mangino was not good for Kansas, should not return, etc., are often just as guilty as keeping the subject in play as I am. I actually concern myself very little with how acceptance of my perspective is perceived, as if that could not be more plainly obvious. If you lack patience, I assure you a message board is not a place for you. Since when in the history of sport has there been no disagreement? No rivalry? No divergence of points of view? If you don't expect this or you grow easily weary of it, the fault is your own. Dont attempt to make it mine. Youll have a very difficult time, indeed. But more importantly, learn to stand on your own two feet, and begin to care much less about what others think of what you think. You will sense a much lesser degree of stress when others disagree with you.

John Fitzgerald 3 months, 3 weeks ago

First off, thanks for answering the question. All of your post, until the last 4 sentences, was worth reading. And I get the message board aspect, and I welcome it, I was just curious why you're so adamant in wasting your time on such a moot point. Are you intelligent? Yes, we see that. You have strong arguments. But are you arrogant and stubborn? Yes, definitely. It's hard to have a debate with someone with those qualities. I'm just offering my friendly advice. Take it as you may, but I'm sure there are more interesting things to pursue than Magino's career at Kansas.

Micky Baker 3 months, 3 weeks ago

To be fair, Joe Ross isn't the one talking about Mangino in every post. I think a lot of fans would like to see Mangino back and it was a big hit when he was fired. He did do and say some things that he shouldn't have done, but the administration, including Lew Perkins' bosses erred in the way they handled it and the way they handled finding a new AD after Perkins left. I think Zenger has done some really good things in his short time at Kansas and has lifted the morale of the athletic department that was destroyed when Lew Perkins left.

Joe Ross has a point. Stop caring about what other think about what you think. You have your views on the program, and others have theirs. You can address the disagreements in a professional manner with Joe and, he will be respectful of you regardless of how you view the conditions of Kansas Football or the athletic department a whole. He knows I don't always agree with him and I know he doesn't always agree with me. He and I have had many when my username was jayhawkintx1973.

There will be a lot of things that you'll agree with him on, and some things you won't. So be it. Neither one is entitled to having everyone agree. It's never going to happen no matter how many times you wish for that.

Joe Ross will be here every game day if he's not sitting at Memorial Stadium watching the game.

John Fitzgerald 3 months, 3 weeks ago

You're doing the same thing your complaining about me doing. Are you stupid or do you have a comprehension deficiency?

David Lara 3 months, 3 weeks ago

Firing Mangino wasn't the big blow to the program. It was the condition the program was in when he left. Anyone who is willing to continually gamble on 2 star recruits turning into todd reesing need to go take thei fandom to an fcs school. Our football program was right back to piss poor once the '09 class played its last game. Hell, the season showed it was pretty much back there halfway through the '09 season. Who do you think deserves to be held responsible?

Joe Ross 3 months, 3 weeks ago

Micky thank you. You remind me of why Im on here discussing this so passionately in the first place, when I have lost my own way and forgotten myself. Its not that I care to create a bunch of fires in the comments sections of football stories. No. I'll say this and I'll sit. Why did I love Mark Mangino? Because I love football. But to be a Kansas football fan was to acknowledge inferiority and accept shame prior to Mangino's marvelous run. Keegan tells us to act like real fans. Well, Im sorry. But the average Kansas football fan has had too much experience in rooting when there was no joy in the outcomes of games. It gets old quick. No, Mangino wasn't a winning coach during all of his time here. That would be a distortion. But few have ever been. Nevertheless, with Mangino at the helm I felt that I could safely believe in a better program. And wow, Mangino sure delivered! Suddenly, we were competitive with both Kansas State and Missouri. We were going to bowl games. We were WINNING some bowl games! We ceased to be a laughingstock and people were beginning to take Kansas seriously. At KANSAS??? Yes. At Kansas! And how magical was it to see what he orchestrated in 07-08? An Orange Bowl win was unthinkable. But Mangino delivered. Now if you were OU or Texas, an major bowl victory might be common place. But to Kansas fans it was like a monsoon in a desert. Call him temperamental. Okay. But the man LOVED being a Jayhawk. Yes, he yelled at his players. No. He was never going to win a citizenship award. But he was he was the first to defend the same players he ripped up with sharp words (this is the nature of the coaches Ive seen in my own experience). Mark put his own neck on the line with the blown call by the refs vs. the Texas game. It tore him up that his kids had to endure that kind of injustice, and you can see that he carried the disappointments of his kids on his own face! How many people remember THAT Mark Mangino?

Joe Ross 3 months, 3 weeks ago

Since his departure, we live in the shadows once again. Returned unceremoniously to the back pages of college football, and few pay us any mind. THERE IS NO HONOR IN THIS! When will you people get tired of being tired of serving as a conference doormat? WHERE IS YOUR OWN ANGER? Where in the hell is it? No, not with Charlie Weis. He's doing right by his job so far as I can tell. Certainly not with the players. They give their all every practice Im sure. ARENT YOU ANGRY WITH THE SITUATION??? Mangino was. We need more of that around here. A few people that will stand up and declare we are fed up with the hype machine, and the carelessness of advertising our prospects as greater than they are. The rug keeps getting snatched out from under our feet, as if we deserve this kind of disappointment. All I have ever asked from the writers on this site is an honest evaluation of our program. Keegan says more is needed from our fans. I say more is owed to them. Yes, even some of you as thick-headed as you are. Because despite your stubborness and our disagreements here and now, I know many of you will be rooting for the Jayhawks to win this fall. I dont care that people respect my views on Mangino, because I know how he made me feel about my beloved Kansas. I assure you that NONE of your most arduous efforts will dissuade me from retaining that feeling or speaking up about it when I feel so moved.

Rock Chalk to Mangino. A Jayhawk salute also to everyone who will celebrate him with me, and wants to see Kansas experience the kind of glory days he brought here once again.

Micky Baker 3 months, 3 weeks ago

Joe,

You and I have endured a long time of Kansas football. I was 15 or 16 in 1989 when I really started to pay attention to Kansas football. It was tough then, though we did play some better teams back then in non-conference play like Oregon, Oregon State, Florida State, Notre Dame, Michigan State, California, Utah, and UCLA. We got rolled by a some of them at home. We rolled Oregon and Oregon State though. We didn't get the recruits back then. Yes, we had June Henely, Lt Levine, Stubblefield, Hillary, Isaac Byrd, and Eric Vann spread out over a few years. There are a few others to mention that arrived during Glen Mason's.

I also remember that it took Briles quite some time to build Baylor. It took Leach some time to build Texas Tech. In fact, I think it took longer than 5 years to build them up into household names. Weis's mistakes were probably in taking of Crist and Heaps. We probably would have been better off in taking a true freshman in Weis's first year and then developing that guy along with a back up.

Yes, we were going to bowl games. We went to four of them under Mangino and won 3 of them. We ended the streak against K-State and Nebraska. Kansas did win it's first BCS bowl game ever, but I don't think that was KU's best team either. I think the 1995 team was better, and maybe the Orange Bowl team that lost to Penn State was a better.

Glen Mason was a better coach than Mangino. Kansas did beat OU in Norman when Norman was rated number 16 in the country right after Kansas beat Colorado in Boulder when Colorado was rated number 2 in the country. Kansas beat TCU in 1995 as well I believe, though they were not in the conference at that time. Mangino had only one real successful year on the road, and that was in 2007. Kansas won at A&M and Manhattan, but he couldn't beat OU or Texas. Mangino never won in Lincoln, Norman, or Austin. Mangino only beat Texas Tech once in Lubbock, and that was after the stating QB went down to injury in that game and the back up brought the team back for the win.

I know about that call against Texas. Kansas should have still won that game. They broke a coverage on the ensuing drive and ended up losing. That Offensive PI against Gordon was bogus for sure, and Kansas would have won that game if not for that. That would have given Kansas enough downs to run out the clock. He stuck up for the players. I got frustrated a few times last year that Weis didn't get on the refs when he should have. He does need to stand up for the players with more vigor when he knows the calls are being tilted towards the opponent.

Tony Bandle 3 months, 3 weeks ago

Same s###, different day..or year.

Fool me once..shame on you..fool me twice..or a bunch of times...shame on me!!

I think we need a new flavor of Kool-Aid!!!

Well...with the track gone, we at least look like a football university.

Mark McCammond 3 months, 3 weeks ago

Just be competitive....wins will come if they can learn to be competitive.

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