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Wednesday, August 21, 2013

Coaches tap Bill Self fourth for X’s, O’s

Kansas head coach Bill Self takes questions during a news conference following the NCAA selection show, Sunday, March 17, 2013 at Allen Fieldhouse.

Kansas head coach Bill Self takes questions during a news conference following the NCAA selection show, Sunday, March 17, 2013 at Allen Fieldhouse.

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Kansas University’s Bill Self has been named the fourth-best “X’s and O’s coach” in college basketball, according to 250 NCAA Div. I coaches polled by ESPN.com.

Michigan State’s Tom Izzo placed No. 1 in the poll and was followed by Michigan’s John Beilein, Louisville’s Rick Pitino, 11th-year KU coach Self, Davidson’s Bob McKillop, Utah State’s Stew Morrill, Duke’s Mike Krzyzewski, Florida’s Billy Donovan, Belmont’s Rick Byrd and Vanderbilt’s Kevin Stallings.

Cal’s Mike Montgomery and Temple’s Fran Dunphy tied for 11th, followed by Wisconsin’s Bo Ryan (13th), Indiana’s Tom Crean (tied for 14th), Marquette’s Buzz Williams (T14), and Kentucky’s John Calipari, Boston College’s Steve Donahue and Gonzaga’s Mark Few (all three tied for 16th). Georgetown’s John Thompson III, Notre Dame’s Mike Brey, Arizona’s Sean Miller, Miami’s Jim Larranaga and Denver’s Joe Scott tied for 19th. Virginia’s Tony Bennett and Iowa State’s Fred Hoiberg tied for 24th.

Former KU coaches Roy Williams (North Carolina) and Larry Brown (SMU) did not place in the top 25. Williams has won two national titles at UNC and Brown one NCAA crown (KU).

Of Self, former KU guard Rex Walters, the head coach at San Francisco, said: “Bill is really good in getting quality shots in late-game situations. You have to have good X’s and O’s, good personnel and good presence. Bill has all three.”

Earlier this summer, Self was voted No.2 head-coach recruiter behind UK’s Calipari. KU’s Kurtis Townsend was named top recruiting assistant coach in the U.S. For ESPN’s rankings go to http://es.pn/1bTaqXh

Alexander likes KU: There’s chatter in the recruiting world that KU leads for Cliff Alexander, a 6-foot-8, 240-pound senior forward from Chicago Curie High. Alexander, who is rated No. 4 nationally by Rivals.com, also is considering Michigan State, Illinois, Kentucky, Louisville, Arizona, Baylor, Memphis, DePaul and Indiana.

“Most everyone agrees that Kansas is either the leader or the co-leader along with Michigan State, and it’s not just because Alexander is dating a member of the KU women’s basketball team, either,” writes ESPN’s Jeff Goodman. “The Jayhawks will likely have a spot for a big man after losing fifth-year senior Tarik Black and also potentially — even likely — losing talented big man Joel Embiid after just one season in Lawrence. Bill Self’s track record of getting big men the ball also comes into play, and his ability to land the No. 1 player in the land, Andrew Wiggins, doesn’t hurt in terms of momentum. The Jayhawks also recently added Jerrance Howard to the coaching staff, a former Illinois player/coach who has strong ties in the city and is extremely well-liked in the area.”

Alexander will be visiting KU officially for the Oct. 4 Late Night in the Phog.

Comments

TexiCaliHawk 1 year ago

I don't know how you actually rank 'Xs and Os' and I understand there are many variables that go into it; however, all you really have to do is look at Bill's 10-year tenure at KU as the winningest program in NCAA Basketball to realize that he combines (at least) both Recruiting prowess and 'Xs and O's' knowledge -- of course, the intangibles such as inspirational leadership/player trust in getting HS phenoms to 'buy-in' to his D-first system and stellar assistant coaching support should also be factored in.

Also, I'm loving how the AW momentum continues to pay dividends in attracting other Top Talent to put KU at/near the top of their 'Wish List' -- now, we've just got to remember the "A, B, C's of selling" and close the ones we want and throw back the rest . . . "Coffee is for closers!" ;-)

ROCK CHALK!

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Benz Junque 1 year ago

Alexander is likely swayed more by the successful development of bigs by Self and staff than by Wiggins coming here. It's not like Wiggins is the first good player to go to Kansas...

Alexander would be a huge "get" for KU. He would fit perfectly in Self's system.

1

Joe Baker 1 year ago

I don't think that all recruits see Wiggins and like KU just because of one recruit, but it certainly didn't hurt either. What if Wiggins passed on KU? I posted yesterday that Wiggins definitely provided KU with some top exposure and we all know that hype is important in bball recruiting. I'd say that it caused Alexander to take pause. But, Howard and the big factor would be the ultimate reason for his liking KU. I don't think KU had much chance with Alexander until Howard was hired at KU. My understanding is that he was a MSU lean prior to Howard coming to KU.

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Steve Grimm 1 year ago

The notable element of the Wiggins signing (that also brought with it more hoopla than any previous top player hoopla in recent past) was the fact that it challenges the Bill Self & KU reputation that was being established by other coaches when recruiting the elite: that the KU program is not designed for the 1&D nor is it designed for a superstar.

Wiggins' signing has suddenly cast second thoughts in the minds of other top recruits that maybe that sales pitch by other schools is not true; that Kentucky isn't the only school/option for an elite player

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Kent Richardson 1 year ago

If there is (was) a perception that the KU program is not designed for the 1&D then maybe Wiggs' is so confident in his greatness that he and who else is here can reach the promised land at Lawrence is really what's going on in his mind.

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jhawkinaz 1 year ago

John beilein! Lol! Dude had one good year because he put the ball into burkes hands and trey worked his magic, I know this is just a poll but beilein isn't in the same class as self as far as late game situations or any of the top coaches for that matter, just my opinion but geez

6

Joe Baker 1 year ago

I couldn't agree more. Beilein is overrated. I'm sure he's a good overall coach, but to say his X's and O's are #2? I'm not sure why the coaches chose him at #2. I'm sure their year, team, and the fact they beat KU helped make that choice. My question might be would Beilein be #2 if KU beat them? Oh well, we'll never know.

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akgjenkintown 1 year ago

Self got out coached by Beilein in the game most people last remember. Beilein would not be so high if Michigan had not made it to last year's NCAA finals.

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texashawk10 1 year ago

KU also had a home and home with Michigan back when Beilein first got to Michigan and didn't have the talent and those were a couple of close games including going to OT in the game in Ann Arbor. I have a feeling he's on the list though because of his 1-3-1 defense.

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TheDeepEnd 1 year ago

Beilein is definitely known for a fairly unique 1-3-1, but he has a great track record of having overachieving offenses. His Richmond teams were good and he made the Elite 8 at West Virginia, losing in OT to Louisville. If you recall, those teams operated like European-style teams with bigs shooting 3's (Pittsnogle!) and making backdoor passes to cutting guards. He's been a success everywhere he's been.

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Greg Ledom 1 year ago

He didn't get out coached. One player went nuts (ala Elijah against ISU) and won his team a very immportant game that in the end took a 40 footer to get it done. Sorry, that's not getting out coached.

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Steve Gantz 1 year ago

Bo Ryan beat Michigan 2 times last season. Beilein is a good coach, but he's nowhere close to Bill Self. In his conference I'd rate him behind Ryan, Matta and tied with Crean. Roy, CoachK, Billy D, all are superior coaches to him.

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Hawk8086 1 year ago

Belien has the reputation of being a good X and O coach because his offensive system runs efficiently back to the WVU (and probably before) days.I think the belief is that he gets a lot out of the talent that he has had....which before last year (Ok, maybe the year before, also) was not that great. Making it to the regional final, when he "finally" had talent probably cemented that reputation.

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Hawk8086 1 year ago

Sorry, I should have said National Finals.

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Michael Luby 1 year ago

+1 Not only that but there is a fair to decent chance that KU and UK will meet again in the National Title game in '14 and KU has an equal or greater chance of winning that match up.

1

Evan Bilyeu 1 year ago

Why do you think we have a better chance? Not disagreeing I just want to hear some reasons.

0

Alex Peekeaton 1 year ago

Don't think Calipari is sweating any "bullets" when it comes to recruiting. You can pencil in at least 3 if not 4 top ten recruits from 2014 class with a couple of recruits in the 10 to 25 range.

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Alex Peekeaton 1 year ago

"quite disturbed when he couldn't sign Andrew"? Really? I don't recall anything Cal said was disturbing - can you provide a link? If you look on youtube, Cal states the following after AW chose Kansas - "before and after his decision, I wish him well. Andrew is great kid and is going to be a terrific basketball player."

Do you really think Cal's recruiting success is based upon momentum? You said the "selling of putting guys in the NBA has been reduced"? You do realize Cal has 7 players projected (Chad Ford - ESPN) to go in the first round of the 2014 NBA draft!!! You stated the UK players are struggling in the NBA??? Who are you referring to? A recent article had projected the top 100 players playing in the NBA in 2017 and 12 of those players were coached by Calipari - that is 12% of the players!!! (Self had 3 listed) The initial UK class of John Wall, Demarcus Cousins, and Eric Bledsoe have been pretty damn good considering they are only 22 years old. Did you see how Anthony Davis dominated the Team USA scrimmages over the summer? The players strugging in the NBA are the Kansas players. I will take the players coached by Calipari in college (Rose, Evans, Davis, Cousins, Wall, Bledsoe, Kidd-Gilchrist, Noel, etc.) over any college coach's players in the country right now. What you fail to realize is this is just the beginning of the Calipari run, not the start of the downfall. The lesson he learned last year of under recruiting (only 8 scholarship players - 7 after Noel's injury) isn't going to happen again. Come April, I'm expecting one of if not Kentucky's greatest team of all time.

1

coolhand357 1 year ago

Hey BBall2012, why don't you take your UK stats and cheerleading to a UK site? At least your stellar brown-nosing of Calipari's greasy a$$ will be appreciated there.

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Jeff Kilgore 1 year ago

Coolhand, 2012 makes some legitimate points. I'm as big a Jayhawk as you are and part of that goes with the truth. You can have your opinion, but you can't have your own facts. He is simply writing the truth, well, until he talks about the beginning, and from that point, I disagree. He's simply asking for the Calipari remarks. Either provide the link or take it back. I'm not a homer who needs to make up stuff. Self and KU can stand on its own without putting UK down. Hell, I'd love to read Calipari's crybaby remarks, I just haven't seen them, and until I do, I don't believe it.

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Jeff Kilgore 1 year ago

That's a winning closing argument.

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Alex Peekeaton 1 year ago

First of all, I guess you weren't able to provide a link on the so called childish remarks Calipari made after Wiggins signed with KU, right?

Not sure where to start, but your comment "Jayhawk players are better prepared. At least they learn some defense". What KU players are you talking about that are better at playing defense then Anthony Davis, Michael Kidd-Gilchrist, or Eric Bledsoe??? Your other comment "Anthony Davis was a no show" - Really??? AD averaged 13.5ppg, 8.2rpg, 1.8bpg, 51% fg%. Thomas Robinson was your so called "no show" of which he is already with his 3rd team in his first year!

You might want to watch some footage of Team USA trials last month of which Anthony Davis dominated. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tm0biG...

Yeah, Calipari is 156-30 in the past 5 years and can't coach, right? I will bet he has a winning record against 95% of the coaches listed in that article too. You actually think Calipari is on the so called hot seat and could get fired with a suspect year? Seriously, as jkilgore stated above, you have lost all credibility with your own facts!

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Chris Shaw 1 year ago

Let's just hope Self and his staff 1) Can perform on 1 days prep in the NCAA Tournament 2) Can use his "Talent" to control tempo against Mid-Majors and middle tier BCS schools in the NCAA Tournament 3) Not leave timeouts in his back pocket in crucial games where you controlled the game for 37 minutes.

With all that said, Self has more to worry about come post season over the next few years than John Calipari. With the players that Self is stock piling...I will be disappointed if Self can't win another National Championship.

1

Joe Baker 1 year ago

haha BigMan, most on this board were crying out for a real game changer. A player who would take a game over and create momentum change. Well, I believe we have him and then some. I see Wiggins stepping up in those whacky game situations when we need plays. I also believe Selden will step up too. I don't think we'll have any Mid-Major slips this year.

0

Evan Bilyeu 1 year ago

Yeah, I would be pretty disappointing if we couldn't in the next few years, its my dream to go to Mass Street and celebrate it with all the happy (and very drunk) KU fans.

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jhawkinaz 1 year ago

I agree with the post above, though I will say self didnt want to do it this way because he can take any type of talent and make them better but some greasy haired cheater left him no choice to get the one and dones but do it in a more classy way, rcjh!!

0

texashawk10 1 year ago

BS on Self not wanting the highest ranked players that fit his system. The title team had 5 5 star players in the rotation. Bill Self wants the most talented players that fit his system because the most talented players give him the greatest chance to win national championships. Bill Self hasn't usually landed the highest ranked kids because there's usually an upper classman that an elite recruit would have to beat out for minutes and most kids want to go in knowing they will start from day 1.

0

JayHawkFanToo 1 year ago

The '08 Championship team had 5- 5star players (depending on whose ranking you follow), but none where one and done, and they were signed over a 3 year period.

Russ Rob and Collins left as a senior.

Chalmers and Rush as juniors.

Arthur as sophomore.

16 combined years played at KU. Compare that to the combined years played by 5 star players at UK. It sure look like Coach Self has managed 5-star players well.

0

texashawk10 1 year ago

The title team was also built in the pre-OAD era.

0

justanotherfan 1 year ago

Rush was supposed to be an OAD. He would have left after his soph year (no NC in all likelihood) if not for his injury.

Arthur was nearly an OAD himself.

0

FearlessJayhawk 1 year ago

This sounds more like a popularity contest with the poll being taken in Michigan. A bunch of bull.

1

Ashwin Rao 1 year ago

Interesting to note that I didn't see Syracuse coach, Jim Boeheim, in this list.

0

Joe Baker 1 year ago

I would pick Boeheim over Beilein.

3

JJHAWK 1 year ago

Best X's and O's coach I've ever seen in person is Larry Brown. He never should have beaten Oklahoma in 88. He simply outcoached Tubbs. Of course things broke for us that day as Milt Newton going 5 for 5 wasn't an everyday affair.

Best defensive coach - Bill Self

Prettiest Basketball I've watched coach - Roy Williams.

Best overall coach - Bill Self

2

Steve Gantz 1 year ago

If the account I've read of that game in '88 is true, Brown didn't want to try to run and gun OU. As the team took the court Danny told the guys that's what they were going to do. The second half Larry insisted on slowing it down. I think Tubbs big mistake was not subbing. If you look at the box score you'll see only 6 players with minutes in that game for OU. They were totally gassed. So in some ways ,yes Larry outcoached him, in other ways they won despite himself.

0

Mick Allen 1 year ago

I agree wholeheartedly JJHawk. Roy's teams played beautiful open court games. Self with the ever present emphasis on defense, would occasionally "muddy" the game up by playing physical, aggressive man defense. Unfortunately for Roy, most NCAA tournament games are of the muddier variety where defense is at a premium and consequently Bill's emphasis on D is more compatible with the with the rhythm and flow of tournament games. The difference in philosophies is evident when they go against each other head to head. We know who has won those battles.

0

Evan Bilyeu 1 year ago

I don't think so, they sort of rebelled against what their coach told them in the championship game...

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Steve Reigle 1 year ago

As far as whether Self is about to become a better recruiter than Calipari, I think he already is. Calipari may get the most top drawer players but he seems to not even consider whether those players will meld together as a team. Self goes after top players who will fit together as a team and will actually like each other.

0

Benz Junque 1 year ago

Based on what? An Elite Eight, a Final Four and a national title in three years? He had one bad year, people.

Self goes after the exact same players that Calipari goes after. Virtually every elite player that has gone to Kentucky also had KU on their final list. Self isn't going after a different type of player. A different type of player is choosing Self over Calipari.

0

Alex Peekeaton 1 year ago

Calipari just signed the greatest recruiting class of all time and you think Bill Self has surpassed Cal as a recruiter?

0

coolhand357 1 year ago

I see you are still here, trying to sell snake oil. Sorry, but you are wasting your time trying to convince KU fans how great Calipari is... although he is definitely tops in one category... vacated wins.

4

741hawk 1 year ago

Check out the "3- for 30 Short" online that documents Wilt as a bell hop at a Catskills resort during high school.summers. He would hand up luggage to second floor windows. His Catskills summer league coach was Red Auerbach! (Sorry I don't have a link for you.)

0

JayHawkFanToo 1 year ago

Interesting picture but the story that goes with it is completely silly.

Comparing the height of a girl in the first row where all students are sitting down to Wilt who is in the third row, where all the kids are standing up on a riser (or chairs, short wall), and stating that he is almost twice as tall is idiotic. The average 4th graders/9 year old kid is 4'5", Wilt seems to be about 12-15 inches taller than he other kids which would make him about 5'7 to 5'10" which is slightly taller than the teacher who is standing on the ground. The kid in front of him is also pretty tall, and when you consider the riser, seems to be only a few inches shorter than Wilt. Twice as tall as the girl in the front row would make him well over 8' tall, which he was not; not even as an adult. Was he very talk for his age? Yes, a "monster"? No.

Again, nice picture, poor writing.

0

clevelandjayhawker 1 year ago

Who is he dating on the womens team?

0

Tony Bandle 1 year ago

My guess, it's one of the Gonzalez twins...or maybe both!! When you date a twin, isn't it kind of like dating both??

1

Jeff Kilgore 1 year ago

At first, I thought you were asking about Chamberlain, and I had your answer, 20,000, but then I remembered the original story . . .

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Andrew Cox 1 year ago

And we are back! Thank god that mobile site was killing me!

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nuleafjhawk 1 year ago

Here's the x's and o's that matter to me - Win / Loss record for the past 5 years

173-20 John Calipari 164-24 Bill Self 152-30 Mike Krzyzewski 151-38 Roy Williams 140-40 Jim Boeheim 140-36 Dave Rose 140-43 Thad Matta 139-40 Brad Stevens 134-48 Tom Izzo 133-35 Randy Bennett

according to statsheet.com

0

nuleafjhawk 1 year ago

i apologize - don't know why i can't print them in " list " order ??

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Michael Luby 1 year ago

I though CS had the most wins of any Div 1 coach...the past 6 years? Decade? I forget but I know Ive heard it somewhere

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texashawk10 1 year ago

Double space after each item in your list. And Calipari's record the last 5 years is 156-30

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nuleafjhawk 1 year ago

Thanks for the info. Statsheet.com is showing 173-20. They're usually right on the money.....

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Mark Wooden 1 year ago

They are really wrong in this case. You have to remember to subtract 38 from this. These are the vacated wins from the 2007-2008 season which would put his total at 135.

0

nuleafjhawk 1 year ago

texashawk10, It looks like they were using a 5 year history starting at 2007-2008 and ending in 2011-2012. Those numbers DO come up to 173-20. Sorry for the confusion.

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texashawk10 1 year ago

That makes a lot more sense because 173 wins averages out to over 34 wins a year and with that NIT last year, I knew there was no way that was accurate for last year.

1

Steve Gantz 1 year ago

No time to look it up, who is Randy Bennett?

0

nuleafjhawk 1 year ago

I had to look too. Head Coach at Saint Mary's College.

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Chris Shaw 1 year ago

Sorry, didn't see your response. I was reading and came back to the thread.

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Steve Gantz 1 year ago

Thanks, I thought he might be the coach at Topeka YMCA

1

Chris Shaw 1 year ago

St. Mary's Gaels coach. I was also a little surprised not completely shocked at Dave Rose being up there. I didn't realize BYU was winning that much, but then when I look back, they won a lot of games with Jimmer.

0

JayHawkFanToo 1 year ago

Mark Few at Gonzaga, 138-33.

1

Joe Baker 1 year ago

Few may be one of the most underrated coaches in my opinion.

1

farnamjayhawk 1 year ago

I will take the #2 recruiter and the #4 X's and O's coach anyday. I like that combination

0

Jeff Kilgore 1 year ago

I'd like to do that well in my fantasy football draft.

0

Chris Shaw 1 year ago

Bob McKillop is one heck of a coach. Davidson is his home and I respect a guy like McKillop who has stayed at Davidson so long. He knows he is the only person for that job. Talk about a guy who gets maximum value out of the teams he develops.

0

wrwlumpy 1 year ago

Billy Packer called Self the best coach to set up a play after a time out or at the beginning of the second half. I remember the back door screen for Sasha at the start of the second half in the championship game, the EJ to Tyshawn back cut for a dunk from the point guard against MU at home,and when Sherron was here, he was the final 10 sec option to get to the rim with all other spread out. With "No point guard" last year, Mac was the option using the Mario over the top 3 pt. play ala Iowa State at home and other sometimes successful, some not during the final secs. of a half.

Self says he also steals great plays from other coaches. I don't know where he got the 3 out of bounds plays that killed Ohio State in Columbus.

1

Joe Baker 1 year ago

I can see Wigs make that play this year off that same screen. I see Ellis setting that screen for Wigs and Tharpe on the baseline.

0

Preston Dwiggins 1 year ago

Coach K #1, Coach Self #2. End of story IMO.

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texashawk10 1 year ago

I would put Izzo at 2 at this point because he has a lot more Final Fours than Self does at this point.

0

jaybate 1 year ago

"Ball Licking, or Numbers Bias: You Can't Rely on the Coaches for Who Is Best at Xs and Os."

Part 1

Seven or eight of ten coaches are in the eastern time zone. At worst, this list is an Eastern Time Zone ball licking contest of eastern time zone coaches stroking themselves. At best, it means the Eastern Time Zone simply has a far greater number of D1 coaches and this tips the scales in favor of EST coaches. You choose. I choose the former.

1 Izzo-Ratso Izzo proves year in and year out that unless he can out muscle teams, he can't out strategize an opposing coach, if his life depends on it. Ratso's record confirms that unless he is two deep with prison bodies, and has at least one great player, he can't win 30. His W&L statement is inferior to Self's. I know he has Self's number right now, because he has met Self teams when Bill was short on muscle, or experience, or depth. But Self will fix that shortly. Advantage Self.

2 Bellein-Depends on the Princeton. This system requires the least strategic innovation of all the offenses in D1, since it is a do-loop system of set plays with players making menu choices. For Bellein, the main choice with the system is whether to tell his team to walk it up the court and run six plays, or hurry it up the court, run six plays and then start repeating the six plays. Slow thinkers and uncreative types like the Princeton, because its rote. Self is fast on his feet and creative. Self's W&L statement is way better. Bellein's one win over Self was a lucky one in a million win because of an absolutely fabulous shooting point guard--not because of Bellein. Advantage Self.

3 Pitino--Slick Rick can coach, no two ways about it. And he can diagram and improvise, and deserves to be on the list. Alas, his record documents that unless his team is stacked he can't win more than 26-28 games. Self can take a team without a single OAD or Mickey D to the Finals and win 30. Self's W&L statement is better. But Rick has coached longer and won twice as many rings. Advantage even.

4 Self

5 McKillop--shouldn't even be on the list. No one would even recall his name without Stephen Curry. Advantage Self.

6 Morill-I haven't studied him closely enough to say for sure, but he's a Dan Fitzgerald disciple from the Gonzaga line of coaches and these guys have clawed and scratched out a hard scrabble game out of Big Rock Candy Mountain country the same way Henry Iba and Doyle Parrock once did north of the Red River. But Self's record is way better and he made it in a vastly tougher conference. Advantage Self.

7 Consonants--I hate the guy, but he has to be the best until he quits.

8 Donovan--Serious coaching chops. No one else on this list has one two in a row. But he struggles keeping his W&L statement up without a lot of Mickey Ds. Advantage even.

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Chris Shaw 1 year ago

Jaybate, I love your rants about Ratso and Coach Consonants. Not sure where you came up with those personal nicknames, but they do make me laugh.

As far as Izzo, I have to disagree with you. The thing I love about Izzo is that he doesn't always get the best "Talent" on the recruiting trail, but he molds and meshes his teams probably better than anyone else in the country.

He and Coach Self are very similar. The thing I respect about Coach Izzo so much, and I read an article about this is his time spent under Jud Heathcoate, is that you can't expect you will be back on top again.

What I mean is, from the article Izzo talks about everything he learned working under Heathcoate and that his mentor always expected to get back to the Final 4 or compete for another National Championship after the 1979 season with Magic Johnson. It never happened and Izzo could always sense Heathcote's desperation and frustration that he never had another opportunity.

I think Izzo has learned from that and molds his teams in a manner that compete in the NCAA Tournament. I mean, he went to 6 Final 4's in 12 years and won a National Championship.

I think if there is one person outside of Coach K that is the ultimate face of their program and has built the program based on their beliefs and family atmosphere it's Coach Izzo.

Look, I know you don't like him, but I have had a chance to meet him and sit in the locker room after a Northwestern beating and listen to his speech to his players and he's about as genuine as they come. His players love him.

I would say if there is another coach similar to Bill Self out there I might say that Izzo and Self are almost mirrors of one another on how they run their programs. Just my .02

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JayHawkFanToo 1 year ago

Enrico Salvatore "Ratso" Rizzo is the character played by Dustin Hoffman in the movie Midnight Cowboy.

0

Hawk8086 1 year ago

I agree that Izzo and Self are very similar. They get their players to play hard and tough.......and play good defense. They believe everything else will take care of itself. I think their success rate is what makes them ranked so high on the X and O scale. I think that Larry Brown is the best X and O coach......and it's not even close.

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jaybate 1 year ago

BMU,

All kidding aside about MSU Coach Tom Izzo, he has proven to be one of the top coaches of his generation and he deserves a lot of respect. I paid him a lot of respect, while poking fun, ranking him third along with Roy. He is on my list.

He made one of the cleverest adjustments on Sherron Collins I ever saw in the NCAA game. And it was so simple Self had no answer for it till the next season. Izzo just doubled him with their big stud 2 guard out front each time Sherron tried to scrape his man off the high post. Sherron was simply denied his scrape off move and Self and Sherron could not compensate.

But I still say that the fall off in his record during the clean play restoration from 2001-2004 proves his record depends mostly on his skill at coaching muscle. at coaching muscle he has no peer. He knows more ways to apply muscle tactically than a Sumo wrestler.

I am sure Tom Izzo is a fine man and credit to his community. I am sure his players love him.

But he has been in the vanguard of wrecking the game with muscle in the 90s and the most recent XTReme Muscle Restoration.

He is the best XTReme Muscle coach ever and it's not even close. He is the maestro of muscle. He knows how to make an opponent fear a tactical punch in the face, or a forearm smash, better than Self. Self has tried to learn how, but bottom line just can't go all the way the way Tom does. EJ's nut punch last year, and the Twins' cheap shots, were Izzo-lite. Self doesn't know how use violence as well. Self's guys come off like dirty players when doing this stuff, whereas Izzo's guys come off like enforcers that really like their work.

The reason coaches don't play Izzo's game, even in the rough Big Ten, is none appear willing to commit fully to it the way Izzo does. Everyone wants to play a little rough, but almost no one is willing to expose their players to what really challenging Izzo would lead to.

He is the best at muscle and that makes him ideal for beating Bill's play it anyway you want style. Self's L&A's just can't play it that rough for 40 minutes. Self has to have much more and better talent, as he had at Illinois, to beat Izzo, when the refs are "letting'em play."

Izzo and Painter are a great comparison. Both play rock'em sock'em, but Izzo's guys you know are willing to cross the line into thug violence at any moment, because Izzo is willing to. Not so with Painter, so you don't fear that.

Izzo has everyone fearing what he might do and wondering when he might do it. Everyone else is just playing rough. Self has tried to acquire this edge, but can't because Self isn't as committed. Self will only sucker punch violence. He won't commit to a roster full of the kind of players needed, as Izzo does.

Self is looking for an edge on Tom's intimidation, but so far he has failed.

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jaybate 1 year ago

BigManU,

I too love your rants apologizing for Don Izzo's foot-basketball and one-hit-wonder McKillops, but for my due lire, I gave Don Izzo and his protection racket-style offense and defense a tie for third and had to take a bath afterwards for doing so. Izzo's strategy always involves punches. Anyone can win this way with one star. Ask yourself this: why doesn't anyone else play Don Izzo's style against Don Izzo? There is a reason why? what is it? Also, if I recall correctly, Bob Knight reputedly said Heathcote was one of the cheaters that kept Knight from attending Big Ten preseason coaching press conferences. Trust me, BMU, you don't want your epitaph to read: "Loved the Jayhawks and Ratso Izzo."

Re: McKillops--Fred Hoiberg is already as good of a coach as McK is. Fran Dunphy is as good. The guy at Cornell and then BoCol is his equal. Hell, the guy at Pitt is as good. McK is good, just not in the top cut. Larry Brown would school him any day.

Regarding Davidson, enjoy the beautiful country and buzz down to HYMAN'S in Charleston from time to time, but don't let the 90% humidity put McKillops where doesn't belong.

Rock Chalk!

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Chris Shaw 1 year ago

One other thing Jaybate...Bob Mckillop is one of the best coaches in the game hands down. His age keeps him from taking another job, but I don't think he wants another job because he loves Davidson so much.

Plus, he has made Davidson his home, which is also my home and I can only hope that Coach Mckillop is still coaching when I start taking my now 4.5 year old to the Davidson basketball camps when he gets little bit older.

There is a reason McKillop is always on the U19, and U18 USA squads year in and year out coaching. I think his Davidson squads that have competed against Kansas and Self since 2008 says it all.

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jaybate 1 year ago

BMU,

At Bob McKillops age Larry Brown was winning an NBA ring!!!!

Next.

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jaybate 1 year ago

Part 2

9 Byrd--fuggedabouthim. Advantage Self.

10 Stallings--I know he has KU connections and we're supposed to be nice to our own, but others have done as well at Vanderbilt and no one can recall their names. Advantage Self.

Leaving Roy and LB off the list just shows how stupid the majority of D1 college basketball coaches actually are.

Here is my ranking for who I want on the bench if the game is tied in the National finals with 12 seconds to go.

1 tie Consonants/LB

2 tie Pitino/Self/Donovan

3 tie Roy/Izzo

That's it.

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jaybate 1 year ago

ralster,

Roy won 80% of his games only recruiting half the country. Had Dean not tied his hands and screwed him into going back to UNC, he would have been the greatest coach of his generation by now. He would have won half a dozen rings. He was THE NATURAL. He could have been the best there ever was. Roy could out coach Bob Knight after just one loss to Knight. Roy had one of the most brilliant basketball minds I ever saw. Roy saved the game from Tom Izzo-fication after the 2000 rule changes. Roy was Dean and Gutt fused and shot through a beautiful mind. I will never forgive Dean for what he kept Roy from becoming. It was a tragedy. But I won't ever praise Roy this way again until he retires and is not recruiting against us.

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jayhawkinnc 1 year ago

Milt actually went 6 for 6 in the '88 title game, not 5 for 5. Just sayin..... :)

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Kevin Huffman 1 year ago

No. 1 thing Bill always seems to do best is have an offensive play drawn up coming out of halftime that seems to ALWAYS work - like clockwork.

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Chris Shaw 1 year ago

Here is the deal with the 1988 team and Larry Brown, Danny Manning, and Milt Newton.

1) Are we sure Larry Brown devised the whole up tempo game plan of the first half? According to this video and Milt Newton...Danny said screw it and told the team to run with Oklahoma in the first half. Just an interesting perspective.

2) My favorite all-time KU highlight (Yes, more so than Mario Chalmers) happens at the 6:53 mark with Milt Newtons reverse layup.

3) Watching this video makes me realize why Bill Self does some of the things he does with his teams. It's also a reason why I think he's stubborn and plays down to the competition during the Big Dance.

4) I really believe that Clint Normore (#4) is actually Sherron Collins and that Sherron Collins has 2 National Championships 20 years apart.

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JayHawkFanToo 1 year ago

Nice trip down memory lane...

  1. At half time Coach Brown tells the team...you have made your point, you have proven you can play their game, now let's see if they can play your game...basically conceding that he did not plan the up tempo first half.

  2. Sometimes it is nice to remember just how good Manning, Newton and Pritchard really were.

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Steve Gantz 1 year ago

Yes, #1 was my memory too of that night, as I wrote above :)

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jaybate 1 year ago

BMU,

Larry is such a great jockey that he could recognize in real that he needed to let his horse run away with him. Most coaches would have wrecked the moment by trying to get back in control during that first half. Larry went with it, then threw the change up the second half. The few that would have gone with it the first half wouldn't have thrown the change up the second. He is a fabulously inventive coach in the moment. He can see EVERYTHING GOING ON ON THE FLOOR AND PROCESS IT NOW! He is a genius. Self sees everything, but can't process as rapidly in the moment.

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Ryan Patti 1 year ago

Guys check out my YouTube channel "RockChalkToTheGrave". I make KU discussion videos about new updates and headlines that come out each day. I also have some sick throwback highlight videos of certain players so please check those out as well. THANKS AND ROCK CHALK!!

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Greg Ledom 1 year ago

How Larry is not top 5 is beyond me. The master of X's and O's and the only coach to have won both a college and pro championship. Go figure.

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DanR 1 year ago

Purely X's and O's, a couple of women's coaches like Geno Auriemma and Pat Summit (pre-alzheimers) should be on this list... ahead of Calipari for sure.

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Michael Auchard 1 year ago

Hire his girlfriend. (Of course, I mean in an non-NCAA-violating way). But hire her.

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Kevin Huffman 1 year ago

http://ukrecruiting.bloginky.com/category/josh-perkins/

***So apparently we weren't even mentioned so we must not be an option. Sounds like he's going to decide by tomorrow.

Somehow I have doubts about Minnesota. I think he'd only been thinking about them if R. Vaughn was also going there (they had talked about pairing up).

I think it's really down to UCLA or Gonzaga.

I suspect that it's Gonzaga.

IF he declares UCLA we might have a LOT better shot at Jordan McLaughlin then, who UNLIKE Perkins we did NOT quit recruiting and who IS one of the Late Night attendees. One of the things I'd most like about McLaughlin is that because he doesn't have great NBA-size for a PG he might have to be no less than a 2AD if not 3AD. Would be PERFECT to learn under Tharpe in his first season. Roy used to get a lot of his backcourt players from out of California (Ad. Jordan, Walters (ok, Northwestern transfer but from Cali.), Haase, J. Vaughn to name a few). Since Self we really haven't had that many California kids period - Withey's the only one that comes to mind and he was a transfer from 'zona.

The only real knock on McLaughlin is that he has to get stronger. Ummm, I think we can do that with him coming off the bench in his first year and ready to star most likey by his Sophomore year.

Ideal situation is we land McLaughlin & Alexander in the Fall and IF (almost seems likely) Embiid turns pro, Turner would most likely come to us.

I'd been saying for a while how much I like Oubre, but we have some depth there with White III & B. Greene. If Oubre would want to come here he might want to wait 'til spring too.....all will have a better idea if one or both will / could see major mins. in coming seasons as this season goes along. Of course, Oubre coudl be in a similar situation as Turner. He'd be smart to play it 'til Spring and see if Selden were to come out early.

If we lost all of Selden, Wiggins, Black & Embiid - a 4-some recruiting class of McLaughlin, Oubre, Alexander & Turner isn't too shabby especially with some talent still there as well - Tharpe (Sr. season), Ellis, Br. Greene, etc.

***I would argue that McLaughlin & Alexander have no reason to play the Waiting Game though - well at least not with how it would work from our end. Even if only Black left we'd find way to get minutes for Ellis, him AND Embiid enough to make all three happy I'm sure.

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Randy Bombardier 1 year ago

Yeah, I always hated seeing us up against Izzo. He's a good one. Also Boeheim. I dont think Michigan out coached us but thought that big freshman outplayed our big senior. I will take no. 4. Better than Roy. Roy was not a good tactical coach IMO.

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