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Tuesday, August 13, 2013

Jayhawks adjust autograph policies after A&M investigation

Eight-year-old Jackson Noland waits as Kansas freshman Wayne Selden signs his T-shirt during an autograph session for attendees of Bill Self's basketball camp Sunday at Allen Fieldhouse.

Eight-year-old Jackson Noland waits as Kansas freshman Wayne Selden signs his T-shirt during an autograph session for attendees of Bill Self's basketball camp Sunday at Allen Fieldhouse.

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Kansas University’s athletic department will continue to let its athletes sign autographs for fans, despite fallout from the Johnny Manziel sign-for-profit allegations at Texas A&M.

KU football coach Charlie Weis on Tuesday said the Jayhawk players and coaches would sign for 30 minutes following Saturday’s Fan Appreciation Day practice, to kick off at 11:15 a.m. at Memorial Stadium.

KU football posters, rosters and other items will be available for the team to sign. Any other items brought by fans for signing will have to be personalized by the coaches and/or players. A player or coach will ask the autograph seeker his/her name and include that on the signed item.

“You all know about this stuff that’s going on. This is our happy medium,” Weis said Tuesday.

Louisville football coach Charlie Strong on Monday said he would not let Cardinals players sign autographs at Sunday’s Fun Day. Miami (Fla.) said it would allow the signing of only school-issued items.

KU associate athletic director Jim Marchiony said Tuesday the KU athletic department would continue to let fans line up outside the basketball team’s locker room (northwest corner, Allen Fieldhouse) and obtain autographs after home games during the upcoming season. Autographs are a hot topic with QB Manziel allegedly having been paid by a dealer to sign a variety of items that were put on sale on the Internet and other locations.

“We have encouraged all our athletes when they sign something, they personalize it,” Marchiony said. “The only reason somebody would not want that personalized is because they think it would be worth more on the market if it wasn’t personalized. There’s also a sign by the Media Room (NW corner) that says thanks but reminds everybody because of time constraints a player will be signing one item.”

Marchiony said KU officials realize there are dealers who pursue the players for autographs in the autograph line and in the Allen Fieldhouse parking lot, with the sole intent of selling the autographed items. It is against NCAA rules for players to receive any money from those individual autograph seekers.

“Yes we are aware of them and I think it’s a combination of the players sticking to the suggested guidelines (personalizing autographs and inking only one item) and us doing our part as administrators to help the players. It is an issue we will be mindful of going forward,” Marchiony said. “We tell the players to be very comfortable saying to them (in parking lot), ‘I have already done autographs. Thank you very much. I am going to be going home, now.’”

Marchiony said KU athletes and coaches appreciate the fact fans want autographs.

“The vast majority of folks who ask for autographs (ask) for purer reasons than the professionals,” he said. “That is part of the connection between our teams and our fans. Every team (at KU) gives autographs.”

Select-A-Seat: This is the week fans learn their basketball seat locations in KU’s Select-A-Seat program.

“More people are taking more seats than they have in the past, yes,” Marchiony said, when asked if a majority of fans are purchasing up to the allowable six tickets. “We are always in a sellout situation. This year we will be in a sellout situation much sooner than we have in the past.

“We’ve been able to offer mini-packs and half-season tickets (in past years), that kind of thing. We don’t anticipate that is going to happen this year.

“It has gone smoothly over the first two days,” Marchiony added. “I think our fans understand that the hype associated with this season has created an excitement and demand for tickets that you would expect at an even higher level than normal.”

Challenge tip times: ESPN on Tuesday announced times for the Big 12/SEC Challenge.

KU will play Florida at 6 p.m., Central time, Dec. 10, in Gainesville, Fla. Other games: Texas Tech at Alabama, 8 p.m., Nov. 14; Auburn at Iowa State, 6 p.m., Dec. 2; Vanderbilt at Texas, 8 p.m., Dec. 2; West Virginia at Missouri, 6 p.m., Dec. 5; TCU at Mississippi State, 6 p.m, Dec. 5; Mississippi at Kansas State, 8 p.m., Dec. 5; South Carolina at Oklahoma State, 8:30 p.m., Dec. 6; Baylor vs. Kentucky, 9 p.m., Dec. 6, in Arlington, Texas; Oklahoma v. Texas A&M, 6 p.m., Dec, 21, in Houston.

Comments

ahpersecoachingexperience 1 year, 2 months ago

There is a video of me in a hotel room signing items with a passed out/ possible dead hooker on the bed, powder covered mirror on the table, beer cans all over the floor, and the sounds of the swat team banging on the door to prove authenticity.

Hoosierhawkfan 1 year, 2 months ago

Sure, on your personal check. Leave the amount blank please!!

Michael Luby 1 year, 2 months ago

I do! Please personalize it to P.I. Staker.

Benz Junque 1 year, 2 months ago

I am glad to see that Ku athletics hasn't overreacted to this recent "problem" by forgetting that 95% of these autographs are for FANS. Great to hear.

I am going to bring my 10 year old daughter down after the next game we go to to try to get some autographs. She would LOVE it if they personalized them. Win-Win...

nuleafjhawk 1 year, 2 months ago

There was only one " Johnny Football " in my book. Johnny Unitas.

JJHAWK 1 year, 2 months ago

Nuleaf - buddy/friend. Have two things to say about your comment:

1) You are absolutely right, and

2) You're an old dude.

I'm an old dude and I remember Johny U well. Then again on some days maybe not so well. Oh well, that's life in the pickle jar.

Michael Luby 1 year, 2 months ago

I did this for the first time last year. I went to a game at AFH, the Richmond game, and afterwards I bought a KU ball and got all the players sigs on it. The ball sits on my top shelf in my library room and soon it will have a glass case. I fully intend on keeping it for a very long time but, I looked said item up on ebay recently and saw it can go for around 300ish. Crazy! I only paid around $30 for the ball and the time spent in line waiting for the players. Im absolutely doing this again this year...provided I can get tickets. I get the attraction to selling autographed merch but if you are a true KU fan, why would you want to?

Dirk Medema 1 year, 2 months ago

Maybe because there might be another true KU fan who wasn't able to get to the game or stand in line afterwards?

REHawk 1 year, 2 months ago

For these organized public signings, place a tip jar at the end of the autograph line, with a sign, "Volunteer gratuity: 1 DOLLAR MAX." Proceeds to be split by entire squad and student managers.

Dee Shaw 1 year, 2 months ago

Not sure why we are concerned about people profiting off our football players autographs. As Coach Weis said just a few weeks ago, "Have you seen that pile of crap out there". Enough said.

nuleafjhawk 1 year, 2 months ago

I don't know - I wouldn't mind having a Gale Sayers autograph now, from when he was playing at KU.......

dylans 1 year, 2 months ago

Look on ebay plenty to be had. I suggest getting one that psa has certified authentic.

bad_dog 1 year, 2 months ago

I have a KU football autographed by the entire 2007-08 team. I wouldn't sell it, but I wonder what that might be worth?

carolinajay 1 year, 2 months ago

Everybody makes money off of college players except the players. I would think that some sort of stipend may help control this under-the-table stuff. I am sure that someone would bring up free tuition, but that won't buy you a pizza. Then don't even go on about the "purity of amateur college athletics".

Jack Wilson 1 year, 2 months ago

"Everybody makes money off of college players except the players." Right. The players make nothing.

This "myth" is an example of what is pervasive in our society today -- people say it enough times, and they believe it.

The players attend school on a full ride scholarship, everything is paid for; tutors when needed. At KU, that might equate to $80,000 - $100,000 of value over four years. At other institutions, more. Who's getting screwed more, the average student who has to pay the outrageous school costs, or the player who gets it free and can't make money off his image, name or signature?

But wait, the player can make money off his image, name, or signature. He just can't do it while he is under contract with an NCAA college. That's right, the player willingly agrees .. a contract .. to the terms of the deal. If he doesn't like, he doesn't have to sign. The deal is the deal. He is free to go make whatever money he can, just not if he takes the scholarship deal.

Of course, this illustrates the point that it is in fact his participation at the institution, not the player itself, that creates the value in his image, name, or signature. It is the institution that has the huge financial outlay for facilities, coaches, and the program. The institution bears all the risk. Like a business that employs folks at $10 an hour .. they make money off their workers. But in our society, particularly certain elements of our society, many forget who creatively established the "business", and who risked money to establish the business. Without these "rich" folks, there are no jobs. In this case, if the school/business does not make money, the student-athlete has nothing at risk. Just like in the real world.

If you don't like that capitalistic approach, try the socialistic approach .. athletic departments and the money they make fund multiple other university academic scholarships and projects. Those programs, and the big money they receive, benefit the university and the students as a whole.

Further, many completely ignore what the education on its face provides to the players, post graduation. Even if they don't play sports.

But if they are engaged in professional sports, and earn significant sums of the money, isn't that in part created by the opportunity at the NCAA institution? It's part of the deal. The school doesn't go to the player and say, "I need a percentage of what you make in the future." Even outside of playing the game, guys like Bilas, Gottlieb, etc. are where they are solely because they were participants in NCAA sports (Gottlieb admits it, Bilas doesn't). They didn't get to make money off signing a jersey, or off their image, of from their name while in college, but they have reaped huge benefits as a result. What was that full ride athletic scholarship worth?

I'd be happy to debate Jay Bilas any place, any time.

VailHawk 1 year, 2 months ago

Well said. I love Bilas but gotta go w HEM on this one.

TxJyHwk 1 year, 2 months ago

While I agree with what you are saying, they also aren't allowed to work during any semester in which they participate in a sport. That means basketball players can only work to earn spending money in the summer.

Things like dates, fun activities away from school/sport tend to cost money. If they have no money to do these things...

coloradojayhawk 1 year, 2 months ago

Not quite. They can go do other things for money, but they don't just have to forgo the scholarship - I think they can't play if they get paid more than a pittance, period. I don't think it makes a difference what they do for the outside the sport money - they could be paid for an invention, or for a computer program they wrote, or for selling cars at a dealership, or anything, but they then can't play on the "amateur" team. The Colorado athlete Jeremy Bloom who wanted to play football but was a world-class skier before he even considered trying to play at CU had to stop skiing and not have any sponsorships while he was a football player - he didn't need the scholarship, but he couldn't play while being paid for his prior developed skills and worth as a skier. I could understand his not being able to be on the CU ski team, but for the NCAA to tell him he couldn't continue as a professional skier which he had developed without one bit of help from any college was wrong in multiple ways. I think Oklahoma got into problems because a couple of their football players were paid by a car dealership for work which they supposedly did during the summer, but it was discovered that they didn't actually do any work. I'm sure there are a couple of thousand pages of legal documents on what can/can't be done, but in essence, I think the members of a college sports team have to take the vow of poverty while they're a member of a team.

One other point - the college doesn't assume all the risk. The athlete is on a year-to-year contract and if they get hurt and can't play, are actually not up to the challenge of college sports or the coaches change and don't want the player anymore, there's no guarantee they get to finish their education on scholarship. We usually think of it as a full scholarship through to the degree, whether it takes 3, 4 or even 5 years, but both sides take risk and I think the student has much less power than the school, and both have less power than the NCAA.

itsJoetimeKU7 1 year, 2 months ago

HEM,

As a long time reader and first time poster, I appreciate your commentary more often than not, you usually have provide a balanced view to those claiming Ellis is a one and done, KU is always the best, blah blah... As a rabid KU fan myself, I understand those sentiments, but they're not always reality.

However, I think you're wrong on this one. There are a lot of myths that if said enough, people believe. Including the myth that it's an either/or decision, and that goes for more than the topic of this post. You're saying, amongst other things, that they players are getting paid in the form of a scholarship, food, etc. and also saying that they couldn't do that without the NCAA, the institution that "takes the risk," etc... As has been correctly mentioned on this board before, ALL other students are allowed to make money outside of their major except for athletes. But again, the argument against the NCAA is not only about drawing a salary. It's their stupid bylaws like Manziel not being able to make money right here and now off his name. The school and NCAA don't need to pay him- he's got the ability to do it on his own and shouldn't be restricted from doing so. THAT is true capitalism, as you seem to identify with. However, the NCAA is (correctly) acting on a more socialist platform, disbursing the revenue brought in by those actually earning it to every D1 program in the country. Everyone wins that way, and the NCAA can continue to pretend they're a non-profit while stashing hundreds of millions of dollars away a year.

The idea that the business men (NCAA) are to be rewarded inordinately and in perpetuity for their (extremely minimal) risk is another question that needs to be reconsidered. After having lived in Germany for 7 years playing pro ball, I can tell you that there is still a LOT of motivation to be a millionaire. If i have an idea for a great business/product, but maximum potential payout is (for example) $5 million in Germany (compared to $7 million in the US), would I say no, not worth it.... of course not. And so it is with the NCAA. They can retain hundreds of millions of dollars and still either pay a stipend to every athlete.

And, you can't just say, "Well that's the contract, take it or leave it." That's not the point of this discussion. We're debating the merits of that exact "contract." Trying to think of new ideas to improve it. Obviously that's the contract. But we're on this board to question it.

I gotta go, but having played high level basketball in college I can tell you that there is no other opportunity to work. Impossible. Between classes, conditioning, workouts, practice, film, homework, etc- there is no chance for a job. Summer is the same now. I get it- the player gets $25,000/year in scholarship money. But he's earned at least that by working, because that money is coming from the NCAA which has remained highly profitable even after paying that out.

Rock Chalk

rockchalk_dpu 1 year, 2 months ago

Players already get a weekly stipend to cover some of the basics such as the pizza you mention, but keep in mind their scholarships include meals so its not like they are struggling to find their next meal. The talk I've seen lately is upping the stipend to something closer to what the average student could earn working a part time job. That wouldn't be a horrible thing considering these players don't have the time to work jobs because they are focused on practice and then getting ready for the next season. If these kids actually did have jobs, you run into the scary scenario of the booster paying that former-OU QB thousands of dollars at the dealership to sit around and shake hands (the NCAA found him uneligible and he transferred to a low level school). Unless the NCAA jumps totally in and pays athletes, we'll always have this struggle of under the table money, agents accepting money on behalf, or promises to pay after graduation. Just my opinion at least.

Jonathan Allison 1 year, 2 months ago

even if the NCAA does allow player payment, where do they draw the line? Because a "stipend" may be $20K a year or whatever, but sports agencies, advertisers, and ticket brokers stand to make hundreds of thousands off of these players. "So you're NCAA stipend's barely paying the rent and the car payment? Well how about I pay off your car and rent your family a nice lake house near campus. All you have to do is sign these 500 jerseys."

rockchalk_dpu 1 year, 2 months ago

I totally agree with the points you are making and that paying players just will lead to higher demands and won't totally eliminate the shady underside of things. To be clear, I'm not for paying players, but presented some of the arguments I've seen others make. I think if you start trying to give these kids money, then you just wind up back where we are now and they will want a larger slice of the pie to cover the things they think they need. As Gottlieb pointed out the other day, there is no rule prohibiting high school players from joining the D-League and getting paid, but no one does it because they wouldn't get the same publicity and hype as playing in the NCAA for even a year.

What I think a lot of people lose sight of when they talk about paying athletes is the dreaded legislation that is Title IX. Its a fact of life that men's basketball and football rule the roost in terms of generating money for their schools (and most don't even break even). If you pay the football and basketball teams then you will likely have to pay everyone else, including non-revenue sports like women's tennis and men's swimming (not picking on them, I was a swimmer). Under the current system, I don't see any way that they can pay players beyond expanding the current stipend system as I suggested so that more of their needs can be met and there won't be as much of a temptation to go to outside shady sources for money. Is it fair to those athletes that generate millions for their schools and the NCAA? No, but it would be unfair to the rest of the student-athletes that aren't in those sports if we decided to start cutting them checks for thousands of dollars each month.

JayHawkFanToo 1 year, 2 months ago

Saying that college players make no money is a myth. Read the article in the link below, it will give you a better idea of what athletes receive in addition to their full ride.

http://www.holyturf.com/2011/05/football-players-receive-17000-annually-in-cash-all-within-ncaa-rules/

In addition to tuition and room and board, they have access to money as described above, and more importantly, access to top facilities, coaches, exposure and other personnel who help them prepare for a professional sport career or a non-sport career. I believe they get a pretty good deal.

Cameron Cederlind 1 year, 2 months ago

KU at Florida: KU

Texas Tech at Alabama: Alabama

Auburn at Iowa State: Iowa St

Vanderbilt at Texas: Texas

West Virginia at Missouri: Missouri

TCU at Mississippi State: Mississippi St

Mississippi at Kansas State: Mississippi

South Carolina at Oklahoma State: Oklahoma St

Baylor vs. Kentucky: Kentucky

Oklahoma v. Texas A&M: Oklahoma

Big 12 - 5 SEC - 5 ????? Thoughts?

Tony Bandle 1 year, 2 months ago

It would be interesting if these were foorball match-ups..potentially, except for Baylor at Kentucky, the Big Twelve could go 0 for 9!!!

coloradojayhawk 1 year, 2 months ago

You think Vanderbilt would go into Austin and win? I haven't been paying attention that closely, but has Texas fallen that far, or has Vandy become much better?

texashawk10 1 year, 2 months ago

Vandy is a borderline top 25 team this year. UT would be a favorite, but a Vandy win in 2013 wouldn't be as shocking as a Vandy win 5 years ago. James Franklin is a very good coach and what he's doing there is something I would love to see happen in Lawrence.

Alex Peekeaton 1 year, 2 months ago

Surprised the #3 & #4 teams (LSU and Tennessee) in the SEC weren't part of the Big12 and SEC challenge.

texashawk10 1 year, 2 months ago

Tennessee was 6th and LSU was 8th last year. I am surprised though that Texas didn't get matched up with Arkansas (also not in it) or LSU. A&M-OU and Kentucky-Baylor aren't necessarily the most attractive match ups, but they already had home and homes set up so those were just easy match ups to set.

Alex Peekeaton 1 year, 2 months ago

Tennessee and LSU are the 3rd & 4th best teams in the SEC to start this year. LSU will be loaded with 2 McD AAs and about everyone back from last year's team.

Steve Gantz 1 year, 2 months ago

Mississippi I think is losing their gunner Henderson for some reason, I forget what. That weakens that team a lot. I think KSU wins that game. The rest look good.

texashawk10 1 year, 2 months ago

Henderson isn't officially off the team, he's just suspended indefinitely right now because he tested positive foe cocaine again. I doubt he plays in that game against KSU, but if he does, Ole Miss should win it.

JayHawkFanToo 1 year, 2 months ago

Baylor beat UK at UK last season and they have a pretty loaded team coming back. Depending on how well and how fast the Kentucky egos gel this could be a tough game. Baylor will playing in front of (likely) a huge crowd a the old Cowboys Stadium on ESPN and can definitely pull an upset...provided Scott Drew is serving a suspension and the Assistant Coach coaches the team.

justanotherfan 1 year, 2 months ago

HEM,

I would respectfully disagree.

Athletes are on scholarship because of their skills in a specific area (sports). Other students reap that same benefit (full tuition to the same university) because of their skill in a different area (academics).

But here's where those two paths differ - athletes are completely forbidden from getting ANY benefits from the fact that they are athletes at the university. Other scholarship students are not.

If you are a student on academic scholarship at KU or any other university, you can attend school on scholarship and still make money from your skill set - and you can do it because you are a student at that university! If you are a pre-law student and you run into a successful lawyer that happens to be a KU alum, that alum can give you a job outside of school and there are NO REGULATIONS regarding how much you can pay that student, how much they can work, whether you can take them to lunch, give them other perks, etc.

For an athlete every single one of those things is regulated.

You argue that students can benefit later. I would argue that regular students benefit from the student athletes success. It has been demonstrated in many studies that athletic success correlates strongly with an increase in alumni giving. That doesn't just benefit the student athletes - that benefits every student.

http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2012/07/03/report-finds-alumni-giving-among-other-areas-correlated-football-success

http://are.berkeley.edu/~mlanderson/pdf/Anderson%20College%20Sports.pdf

http://thesportseconomist.com/2006/01/05/more-on-athletic-success-and-donations/

That's just a random sampling of the academic studies.

Finally, to your point about becoming pros later - in sports for the elite athletes, that has NOTHING to do with their pro success. That's been proven in basketball and baseball for years. If you honestly believe that a player like Andrew Wiggins needs to come to KU in order to have an NBA future you are seriously kidding yourself. The superstars don't need the NCAA for that. The late bloomers do, but those aren't the ones that hit campus as huge stars, generally.

And if you think the pro leagues wouldn't be able to identify players if the NCAA didn't exist, well, I don't know what to tell you. I know you're probably thinking, but what about the preps to pros players that end up as busts? Well, what about the former college stars that end up as pro busts? There will always be busts because there will always be guys that just aren't able to make the transition, and that will always exist because the talent difference is so large.

Ethan Berger 1 year, 2 months ago

You bring up a different debate sort of. You bring up good points, but my question would be what is the purpose of college? College is for higher learning. Those kids who get full rides based on their skill sets of being an elite student are what colleges are for. These kids who get full rides based on having God given physical attributes isn't the same. But here is the thing, this issue of a stipend is only for 1% of these players. Schools like Alabama have 20 of 80 guys who will be pros, and only 4 or 5 of those are "losing" money by the school not paying them. Then at Kansas we are lucky to have 5 guys with a pro career and maybe 1 will be a big face. So if you start paying these big time players, money will have to be taken from somewhere. Not only do these kids get free school, room and board, books and food. They also get world class trainers (the big schools where this issues matters). So if they tear their acl, instead of paying 50000 grand for rehab, they get it for free at school. Overall the value for these guys is around 200,000, to play a game.

justanotherfan 1 year, 2 months ago

Most would say the purpose of college is to prepare you for the career of your choice. For some, their career of choice is accountant. If they get a scholarship to go to school to get that accounting degree, no one begrudges them for doing some work on the side while they are studying. Other students benefit from having free housing, tuition, medical care, etc.

Why should student athletes be different? It's not the students fault that people are willing to pay more because they can shoot a jumper, or throw a ball, or whatever their sport may be. It's not their fault that the sixth man on the basketball team is worth maybe half a million to the university, while the sixth student on a chemistry scholarship may only be worth a $50,000 research grant.

I see people arguing free market. The free market says that the student athlete's skill is more marketable (or worth more on the open market) than the accounting student. Nobody goes to sporting events to watch people coach or administrate. That's not a dig on any coach or administrator, but Bill Self wouldn't be making the kind of money he's making if he were coaching intramurals.

So if you want to let the market dictate, then the NCAA should be gone tomorrow and the bidding for the top talent should begin post haste. If not, then its time to admit that the system is messed up, most likely corrupt and needs to be changed.

Ethan Berger 1 year, 2 months ago

System is messed up but I think pay for play is a bad idea. Maybe these leagues can make their own farm league like the MLB(NBA d league doesn't count). Give them a chance to make money while getting training. But if they are in college, don't pay for play. One of the issues is most players wouldn't be able to go to these big time schools if it wasn't for sports. No issue there unless they are paid a certain % for sports. They are gaining about 200 grand for all they are given through scholarship while also not having the crippling student debt when they leave.

Brett McCabe 1 year, 2 months ago

The problem with your analysis is that students on academic scholarships are not governed by an organizing body. As a donor I could, tomorrow, offer a $200,000 annual scholarship to anyone attending KU. No one can control or stop that process.

The NCAA is ostensibly charged with keeping a level playing field and, so, most of the guidelines are driven by the goal of making the competition fair.

I disagree with NCAA policies when it comes to punishing students who want to change schools, and I believe that the athletes deserve a bigger voice. However, as HEM states, this is the deal young student athlete, take it or don't.

And please quit your complaining. You've been tutored, pampered, housed, fed and trained - all for free - and you have been given the opportunity of a lifetime to play a game you love in front of thousands of adoring fans and you don't a have a single dollar of student debt to pay back. And, if that isn't enough, offer to take a redshirt year and you can complete your master's degree for free, too.

Not a bad deal, huh?

Jack Wilson 1 year, 2 months ago

justanotherfan: Thanks for your insights here. Kingfisher and Hawk90 hit on some very good points in response.

A few things:

1] There is a major difference between an academic scholarship and an athletic scholarship -- and this is the core of the debate. Are they pros or amateurs? If they are the same, then a KU donor could pay for and house a student athlete, give him cash, a car, whatever .. just as IBM could do for a student of their choosing. So long as there is amateur athletics, there is a major difference. And that is the issue of corruption. But it is the contract made by the student athlete. If you want the scholarship .. if you want to play sports .. you do it under these conditions and rules, all as Kingfisher argued very nicely.

2] Student athletes can work in the summer, and many times have jobs set up for them (like camps). More than enough time to make enough money for pizza and beer .. er, Pepsi .. for the entire school year.

3] You are right about the positive impact of sports money (including donations) on the schools in general. That was kind of to my point. It benefits every student.

4] I don't necessarily disagree that KU won't do much for Wiggins. That kind of top guy? You may be right. But school is critical in football where physical maturation is key. And in basketball, a great, great majority play their way into the draft and a career. Superstars don't need the NBA, perhaps, as you say. But everyone else does. Question is .. if Wiggins really doesn't need KU, or the scholarship "deal", why come here then? Why not sit out? Why not go to Europe? Why? Because by not playing in college, he risks the positive opinion of him changing. Or maybe he just wants to enjoy college. Or maybe he wants a title. Regardless, even Wiggins and top guys see the benefit to playing in college and risking injury or poor performance vs. not playing. So I think that proof (Brandon Jennings aside), may imply that even the top guys do need college in some way.

5] And remember .. the minute you pay a stipend to the men's basketball team, Title IX will dictate that the coxswain on the women's rowing team gets the exact same deal.

Personally, I think every player in any sport should be able to play at the highest professional level immediately, if a team wants him. The NBA has an obviously self-serving rule.

justanotherfan 1 year, 2 months ago

HEM,

You make good points. I agree with you to some degree, disagree to some extent.

1) The amateur debate is strange to me. Other students are "students", but can still earn money outside their student experience. Athletes are restricted in this respect.

2) I agree with you here about the jobs, mostly working camps. The difficulty is that most student athletes cannot do much more because any other job is heavily scrutinized.

3) We agree here.

4) KU benefits from getting the "top guys." The NCAA as a whole benefits from that. Look at college baseball - it's not very popular. Why? Most of the top talent doesn't play college ball, so it doesn't draw the same level of attention. The NCAA complained about that very issue during the preps to pros era. They worried that if the NBA created a real minor league system, many top players would go that route rather than the college route. The European route generally isn't an option because you are asking an 18 or 19 year old to go out of their comfort zone, where they don't speak the language and play one (or two) years. Most pro teams in Europe aren't interested in that short term investment because they don't stand to benefit.

5) I think all athletes should receive a stipend - the NCAA should be distributing the revenue it generates to the students that help generate it. In addition, student athletes should be able to generate their own revenue. Lots of people are critical about athletes not understanding business when they go pro, yet they deprive them of the opportunity to profit from their own "brand." Very hypocritical.

I agree with your point about the OAD rule being self serving. I think the NFL rule (3 years out of HS) is also self serving. But the NCAA should not be able to avoid criticism because the NBA or MLB, or NFL or NHL has self serving rules.

Jonathan Allison 1 year, 2 months ago

The amatuer debate is simply this. The NCAA governs intercollegiate athletics as we know it, and has been bound by the federal government or the Supremem court or whomever, to keep the playing field fair between sports and between participating schools as much as they can.

College basketball is not a university degree program! It is an extracurricular activity.

Say for instance a student athlete were also an engineering student as many of them are. They CAN take a summer internship in their field of engineering and be paid for the work that they do. However, if the student athlete is a communications studies major, and they get hired for a summer job by the Law Offices of Finkle and Bloom and they get paid $100/hr to show up 4 hours a week on a Saturday to sign autographs and take photos then (right or wrong) that is amatuerism violation.

Now, count me as one who believe that a student athlete should be pair a small stipend. But large enough that they can have an affordable insurance policy (like most professional prospects do) that provides realistic coverage according to what they could potentially earn in a rookie contract, payable if they sustain a career ending injury or something of that sort.

Also, count me as one who believes that a student athlete should be able to capitalize off of his/her fame while they have the chance. If Johnny Manziel wants to make a quick $100,000 selling his autograph, and he has the means to do it, he should be able to do it. But there HAVE to be limitations to how a student-athlete can do such things or else the NCAA can no longer maintain a level playing field between schools.

For example, if they University of Kansas chose to buy an autographed ball from Andrew Wiggins for $50,000 and auction it off at an alumni event, then what would stop UK from offering $100,000.

Or, if the University has a major sponsorship with Adidas, and Adidas says if you sign with Kansas we'll give you a $100,000 promotional deal to appear in advertisements, that simply isn't fair to schools who don't have the pull or the appeal of Kansas, kentucky, Duke, UNC, etc.

The NCAA has plenty of legal expertise to be able to regulate better what student-athletes can and can't profit from and how much of a stipend student-athletes are allowed to meet basic needs and provide affordable accident coverage.

saidtoomuch 1 year, 2 months ago

You're not just another fan, you're right on the money. Someone stated earlier they're free to go make money elsewhere if they don't like the NCAA, but Wiggins isn't free to go play in the NBA this year. Instead Wiggins is a huge marketing tool for KU. He could play pro tennis or soccer, or join the PGA, or go play pro in Europe, but not free to get paid in the NBA in the most free country in the world, America.

coloradojayhawk 1 year, 2 months ago

I don't think he'd be free to go make money in another sport. See my comment above about Jeremy Bloom, the world class skier who had to give up skiing and endorsements (since they're what funded his skiing) while he was on the CU football team.

Ethan Berger 1 year, 2 months ago

How much would Andrew Wiggins get? So school does him no good because he could be pro. Which I understand, but is there where college money needs to go? So does he deserve 10%? More? Basketball is its own animal. What is the line for amaturism? You pay these kids, they are pro. If they are pro then the institutions are pro. If those big schools are pro, more money will go toward sports and possibly be taken out of the academics. There is a fine line, once crossed could hurt thousands of students.

Brett McCabe 1 year, 2 months ago

Talk to the NBA about it. Or go to Europe and play. I can't believe that we are wasting a single minute talking about how bad Wiggins has it.

saidtoomuch 1 year, 2 months ago

You're right it will only likely end up bad for Wiggins if he has a devastating injury, but stranger things have happened.

hawklvr 1 year, 2 months ago

In my understanding, it is not the NCAA that says a kid can't go to the NBA right out of high school, but the NBA. The NBA mandates that a US player be 19 and at least one year out of high school. The NCAA does not force anyone to go to college before to becoming a pro! They could take a year and work any job they wanted, they could go play in Europe, etc. Most, however, choose to attend a college for at least one year. Why? There obviously must be a good reason to go that route, or not so many would. If you are not a top prospect, playing in college elevates your game and gets you exposure in a huge way. How many players end up in the NBA after solid college careers when they were not a hot prospect out of high school? How many get there dream job even if it is not playing basketball because of there association with a particular school? If I was a four year bench warmer at KU, that would still boost my marketability over someone who was a starter for some no name small school. The athletes know it. That is why they choose to go to the programs that get the most recognition. That is why some are happy to sit on the bench at KU when they could get lots of playing time at a smaller school. They understand the big picture.

saidtoomuch 1 year, 2 months ago

15 year-old Olympic athletes get alot of perks and benefits but are still allowed to market themselves through autographs and advertising. If youre a scholarship drummer for the KU marching band and you play in a rock band on Mass. St., you can still sell autographed cds and shirts, bit Wiggins isn't allowed to do something similar. Oh yeah, his huge benefit is one year of paid tuition. Alot of these kids could probably pay their own tuition if they were allowed to market themselves outside of the NCAA.

Brett McCabe 1 year, 2 months ago

Again, this is an NBA rule, agreed to by all of the millionaire players who are currently in the game. It's not KU's or the NCAA's problem.

saidtoomuch 1 year, 2 months ago

Sounds like the work of Free Market hypocrisy at its best.

texashawk10 1 year, 2 months ago

If you're a 15 year old Olympian, I know she's not 15, but let's take Missy Franklin for example. She was 17 last summer during the London Olympics and won several medals. Because she is going to compete collegiately at Cal, she was not allowed to take home any of the prize money that comes with winning an Olympic medal (US pays $25,000 for a gold, $15,000 for a silver, and $10,000 for bronze) because she is going to complete in college. Missy won 4 gold's and a bronze in London so she had to turn down the $110,000 in prize money she earned to keep her college eligibility even she won that money before she was enrolled at a college.

The thing that really bothers me about the way the NCAA handles people like Jeremy Bloom is that baseball players like Chris Wienke, Brandon Weeden, or CJ Henry to toss a KU example in there are allowed to earn money playing a sport professionally and still have NCAA eligibility in another sport. Missy Franklin I understand because she's competing in the sport at Cal that she competed in at the Olympics and it would be even more hypocritical of the NCAA in that situation than was to tell Jeremy Bloom no you can't earn money competing in a sport other than the one you play in college and yet they let baseball washouts do the same thing.

saidtoomuch 1 year, 2 months ago

Colorado when will we be able to get those tickets to see the Hawks play at Allen West this year?

REHawk 1 year, 2 months ago

OK, here is an alternative scenario. A toprated player such as Wiggins declares to his university of choice, "I will play for you as a walk-on, paying my own expenses; but I will do so with the understanding that I sign no autographs for university sales or fans during my tenure at your institution. And I expect you to make it very clear to your fanbase that my decision to play for you includes that stipulation. In essence, you protect me from autograph seekers." Just imagine the demand for and value of those Wiggins autographs the moment he finishes playing for his collegiate team! In no time he likely will reimburse himself for college expenditures.

justanotherfan 1 year, 2 months ago

The walk-on idea wouldn't work. The whole scholarship system was created to allow the NCAA to have control of the athlete. You think if the best athletes could declare themselves "walk-ons" that boosters wouldn't be lining up to pay their tuition? This is the problem.

I was a regular student on academic scholarship in college. I always point out the benefits that non athletes can receive because I got lots of those - from alums picking up a dinner tab, or giving some guys gas money to get home over fall break, or getting paid to do random pseudo jobs like house sitting, any student can get those types of things - except an athlete, and that's just not fair.

I got the same education that was available to an athlete. I also got to enjoy the benefits and the anonymity - no worry about having my grades debated in the paper, or my ACT scores leaked, or what I did last night becoming front page news. Athletes don't get that. If a student athlete gets into an argument in front of the dorms, it's gonna be on KUsports the next day. If it's the kid on the debate team, nobody even notices.

Yeah, they get to play a game they love, but if you think a kid can get to the level of being a pro prospect just by going to an NCAA school, you are sadly mistaken. Hours of practice, sweat and work went into that long before any college coach ever saw that kid run or dribble or throw. College sports is just a stop along the way for pro prospects. It just so happens that on that stop the only people getting rich (and people are most certainly getting rich) are the coaches, administrators, overseers, investigators and outsiders.

Joe Joseph 1 year, 2 months ago

Stupid question- can an NCAA athlete sell his/her own autograph (no broker or anything), like on eBay? What if its an autograph on a plain basketball or picture that's not licensed by the university?

Jonathan Allison 1 year, 2 months ago

the athlete is clearly using his/her identity for profit and has thereby violated his/her amatuerism and is henceforth no longer eligible to compete in any NCAA sanctioned events.

Unless he/she sold said autograph while he/she was a low talent, low minor league baseball player earning peanuts from an MLB affiliate when he/she chose to sell said autograph, prior to deciding to quit baseball and return to college to participate on a high profile, high revenue team of a different sport than baseball.

texashawk10 1 year, 2 months ago

No, because that's a big part of the Ohio St. case. Players well selling their own gear for money or trading it for tattoos.

JayHawkFanToo 1 year, 2 months ago

It does not work because it starts what we call a slippery slope. What happens if a bookie tells the player...place your autograph for sale on eBay and I will buy it for a large sum of money, but there will be a time when I ask you to shave a few point during a game...and this is just the start...

Lloyd Kinnison 1 year, 2 months ago

T A&M has a man-child issue, The child has not developed into a man. He is not matured into an adult and continues to demonstrate that he is not able to make decisions as an adult.

REHawk 1 year, 2 months ago

How many tens of thousands of dollars will KU and the NCAA clock in the next decade from the sale of Andrew Wiggins gear? What amount of income to KU, Kansas Athletics or the coaching staff from the appearance of Andrew at games, camps or public autograph signings? Yeah, the lad has signed a contract to play and abide by NCAA Division 1 rules at KU. The 2013-14 media perks are monstrously important to his current fame and popularity which will affect future earnings. Yet there is something almost scandalous about his inability to share in the take for sale items with his name or signature. His demeanor appears to be a giant step above the current style of A+M's John QB, and I would expect him to play within the rules of his contractual scholarship. That said, there still is an odor of injustice regarding the huge unshared profits which institutions will bank from his name, if not his signature.

justanotherfan 1 year, 2 months ago

The Olympics used to have a lot of rules about amateurism, too. Those went away because too much money got involved. The same thing has happened with college athletics. There's too much money involved to act like this is just amateur athletics.

To argue that only the stars would profit from being able to sell signatures and memorabilia seems to ring untrue. Had a player that did not have an NBA future, like say (hypothetically of course, I am not accusing anyone of anything, just using an example) Kevin Young, decided to autograph and sell items while at KU, I am sure he could have made a decent amount of money - maybe not the kind of money that Manziel made, but a decent amount nonetheless.

And then there is the issue that Bilas pointed to earlier this week - the selling of jerseys. Two years ago, the top selling KU jerseys for basketball were 0 and 10. Last year the top seller was 23. Something in my gut tells me the biggest sellers this year will be 22, 34 and 1. That's just a guess, and it may turn out to just be a coincidence, but let's see how it turns out. After all, why would KU pick those particular numbers to market in those particular years for basketball?

Sally Presson 1 year, 2 months ago

My day is ruined, I just read where the mini packet won't be available this year. I'm sick!!! We can't manage the full package or the expense that gets us the opportunity to purchase those season tickets, but we could manage the mini package. I just hope we can get tickets for one or two games, we aren't giving up until they tell us no, but doesn't sound good. Well, it is good, glad there are so many KU fans who are looking forward to this season. My husband is a KU grad who paid out of state tuition every year we were there, he was an architecture student. Can't wait for football and basketball. We wish both teams the best!!! We'll be at late night so we'll get to see the team then.

Rock Chalk, it's going to be an amazing season!!!

domino 1 year, 1 month ago

So glad the autograph signing will continue. My mother-in-law was one of the biggest KU fans around. A number of years ago, I was able to attend a signing with my daughter and get Jerod Haase's autograph as well as pictures with him. Actually had the autograph made to my MIL. She cried when I gave it to her! That year when her birthday came around, I asked her what she wanted (the answer was usually 'nothing') but that year she said she knew what she wanted and that was a copy of the picture of me with Jarod. So I found pictures of myself and my daughter with Jarod, bought some flat metal Jayhawks and took them to an art gallery. I had them position, matt and frame the pictures, Jayhawks and leave a place for the autographed picture she had and gave it to her for her birthday. She cried again and it was one of her most prized possessions! This sweet lady watched the 2008 North Carolina game and championship game from her place in heaven. On Tuesday, April 8, 2008, we celebrated a KU National Championship and her life. She was burried in one of her favorite KU sweatshirts and the family, minister and most of those in attendance donned their KU gear for her graveside service. The minister even said she probably made a pass thru Lawrence on her way to heaven.

This is the kind of things these autographs mean to people! Rock Chalk!!!

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