Sunday, September 30, 2012

Self: New KU contract ‘generous,’ built for long haul


Bill Self says he has no idea if stability in Kansas University’s basketball program will assist him in the pursuit of high school players.

“I don’t know if this helps recruiting or not. I still had six years left (on his old contract),” Self told the Journal-World on Friday after agreeing to a restructured contract that will provide him $53.32 million over a whopping 10 years.

“I think it’s very generous. I think it’s great. Whether it helps recruiting or not, I don’t know because I feel like that is not something I’ll talk about in the homes.”

It’s a contract designed in part to entice Self to stick around. The 49-year-old, 10th-year Jayhawk coach would receive a lump sum of $6 million if he remains through March 2022.

“I need to stay the entire length of the contract to receive the major benefit of it,” Self said, adding, “it’s one of those things, obviously, if I’m not doing a good job they can terminate it and everything. I hope we can continue the same way we’ve been going, even surpass what we’ve done (eight straight Big 12 titles; one national title; one NCAA runner-up finish). I’m excited about this year’s team and the possibility of having one of the better recruiting classes we’ve had.”

Self — he has received commitments from No. 22-ranked Brannen Greene and No. 28-rated Conner Frankamp, with three scholarships still available — said he’s as happy as he could possibly be entering season No. 10 at KU.

“Cindy (wife) and I love it here. Both our kids are going to graduate from Kansas, hopefully, if my son can get through,” Self joked of freshman Tyler Self. Daughter Lauren is starting her senior year at KU. “We love it here. I don’t know if it is better than I thought because I thought it was great before I got here,” added Self, who replaced Roy Williams 10 seasons ago after working three years at the University of Illinois. “The way we’ve been treated and the success we’ve had has been absolutely fabulous.”

Contract tidbits:’s Darren Rovell did some numbers crunching and revealed that Self will make $14,978 a day if he remains KU coach through the 2021-22 season. ... Self is provided 10 tickets to each home game and six tickets to each away game at no cost for allocation at his discretion. The contract states that KU “allots at least 100 tickets to the men’s basketball program for each home game in the following categories: high school recruits, high school coaches, former players, coaches or managers and business and community relations. These tickets shall be provided to the men’s basketball program and shall not be for the personal use of the head coach or the assistant coaches. As tickets for business-related purposes they shall not be taxable to the head coach.” ... Self also “receives 100 percent of athletics’ royalty payments from the sale of in-store retail merchandise sold by during the month of June, including the two Sunday basketball camp registrations days in June, and including dorm sales held during the two weeks of summer basketball camp in June. He also receives l00 percent of the royalty payment from the total of in-store sales during the one-day holiday clinic held over the Christmas break or as otherwise determined by the parties. Royalty payments are not calculated on sales of excluded merchandise (sales to employees, team or autograph balls, consigned items, or items sold at a discount of 25 percent or more).”

Happy AD: KU athletic director Sheahon Zenger was happy to add four years to Self’s current contract.

“Where else do you go to find a coach in the modern era that’s won eight conference championships in a row, much less in the Big 12, which is highly competitive?” Zenger asked.

Mason to visit later: Frank Mason, a 5-11 senior point guard from Massanutten Military Academy in Woodstock, Va., is not visiting KU this weekend as originally planned, reports. Mason said he likely will visit next weekend. The No. 131-ranked Mason is considering KU, South Carolina, Tennessee, Oklahoma State, Virginia Tech and others.

Leave him alone: Future KU player Brannen Greene, a 6-7 senior forward from Tift County High in Tifton, Ga., tells that some unnamed schools are still trying to recruit him. However, he remains solidly committed to KU.

“It’s crazy,” said Greene. I’m always thinking in the back of my mind ‘You do know I’m committed, right?’ They want to know if I’m still open to their schools, but even though I say I’m not they keep coming.”

Added Greene’s father, Jeffrey to “It used to shock me, but not anymore. After a while you get immune to it.”


ccarp 5 years, 7 months ago

Just as the Dude abides, Coach Self shall surpass

dylans 5 years, 7 months ago

So you think Bill Self and Charlie Weis have done comparable jobs? Don't insult Bill and give Weis a little time, man.

Dirk Medema 5 years, 7 months ago

Also lucky Coach Self hasn't acted like any former football coaches and given the AD a reason to ask him to leave. Also a shame that no former football coach has even sniffed a a conference championship, much less 8 in a row.

As for CW, he has a 5 year plan to build a program, and turn it over to a coach that can sustain it. He's not interested in an extension. He's said that from day 1.

mojayhawk 5 years, 7 months ago

I'd like to know the names of the schools still trying to recruit Brannen. Any guesses?

Kevin Millikan 5 years, 7 months ago

chamberlain, you should have made Rogers leave the bar when you did...

Dirk Medema 5 years, 7 months ago

Roger takes the bar with him - in a little brown paper bag.

Ben Simonett 5 years, 7 months ago

Interesting schools are testing Greene's commitment. Wonder what makes them think he's swayable?

I haven't heard of alot of UNC or UK kids getting recruited after their commitments.

dylans 5 years, 7 months ago

He's just that good. Brannen is making coaches loose level head due to his ungodly talent.

Marcia Parsons 5 years, 7 months ago

I remember Calhoun poaching someone from UofA. So far as I know, that was the first time I'd ever heard of it.

Joe Baker 5 years, 7 months ago

It's not final until the kids sign on the line. The ncaa should have a rule and once a kid commits, he's off limits. I can understand one final attempt, but multiple attempts borders on harrassment.

Displayhawk 5 years, 7 months ago

You guys may remember better than me, but didn't Steve Fisher accuse Bill Self of doing the same thing to him when we got Kevin Young to commit to us???

SDSurferFan 5 years, 7 months ago

Self poached him, but KY, or any kid, has to be poach-able. Fisher was pissed and called him out. End of story. Glad to see Greene has a higher level of unpoachability.
SDSU has a great team and has landed some top recruits, probably as a result of not getting him....It worked for all!

jaybate 5 years, 7 months ago

Yes, and Self poached Kevin Young from Steve Fisher.

It would seem to me that certain coaches will poach some coaches, but not others.

Dan Cook 5 years, 7 months ago

This is wrong. Kevin Young's AAU coach contacted KU and said he didn't want to go to SDSU and asked if KU was interested. After verifying that KY wasn't going to SDSU and was then open, KU got involved. That's very different than poaching.

jaybate 5 years, 7 months ago


First, I doubt that Self broke a rule in signing Young.

Second, I am glad he signed Kevin Young. He appears to be a good player and was very important to our team last season. And I expect him to be a very important player this season.

Third, I do see a significant degree of difference in the Young sitaution versus Greene in that Greene has committed to KU, and Young was apparently experiencing some ambivalence about his lean to Fisher, and perhaps signalled his mentor/coach to inquire about KU's needs. When Young learned of KU's interest, he switched. Good for him, if that were how it went.

So: IMHO, it doesn't matter if Young's coach, or god, contacted Self about Young. Young was a Fisher/SDSU lean. Self went after him, because he had slots to fill late. Self was so intent on landing him that he apparently offered not only Young, but another protege of Young's coach a ride--a fellow named Merv--perhaps to sweeten the attraction of KU. But who can say?

Regardless, I'm not knocking Self. I don't see that he did anything wrong, though I am a layman and do not know the NCAA recruiting rule book chapter and verse. In layman's terms, Self had a better school and basketball program, and he was a better coach, and Young appeared to make his choice based on those factors.

Nor am I down on other coaches that keep recruiting Self's leans, as long as they are not violating any rules doing so.

Thanks for the take.

Dirk Medema 5 years, 7 months ago

Recruiting after committments isn't new. It is how Jones got to UK instead of UW, and plenty others as well. Good to hear him talk about it, and about staying solid.

Jack Wilson 5 years, 7 months ago

Interesting dilemma. Do we want our coach tol do what appears to be ethically correct? Or do we want our coach to keep in contact just in case? To try to steal a recruit?

The initial consideration might be what is really ethical. Is it really unethical to try to stay in the game with a recruit that hasn't signed on the dotted line?

I bet if Chris Walker de-committed tomorrow, reopened his recruiting, he signed with KU in November, then we heard that Dooley stayed in contact with him in September, we'd all just be very happy. We'd be happy in the moment. We might not be happy when putting it into perspective months later.

Tough call. But when all is said and done, all you really have is your character. How will folks view you? What lessons do you pass along?

In the unseemly game that is college basketball, I'll take the "right" way.

jaybate 5 years, 7 months ago

You don't know recruiting from belly dancers at a fat farm.

jaybate 5 years, 7 months ago

HEM, wanted to make clear I was referring to JayShagsHimself here. :-)

Joe Baker 5 years, 7 months ago

What are you teaching the recruit and your players too? A lot of great players with ethical values coming out of uk? "But they won a NC!" Oh what ethical expense? It's a wonderful winning program. He looks at himself every morninng and likes what he sees staring back at him. "It happens in all programs." Does it? Or do we say that to justify what gets done? The end and the means are always bball's greatest challenges.

Mike Bratisax 5 years, 7 months ago

Why are we recruiting Frank Mason? Has HCBS decided that Tharpe just isn't going to cut it?

Seems desperate. Maybe Royce Woolridge wants to return.

jaybate 5 years, 7 months ago

Anatomy of a Rumor: Frank Mason Is Slow"


This is a good question that everyone seems to have a speculative answer for that persuades no one but themselves. :-)

I assumed Frank Mason was probably exceptionally quick, because the other coaches that are reputedly pursuing him have tended to have very quick PGs. It seemed a logical inference to me at the time. 5-11 and 160. 133 rank. A guy Self, Travis Ford, Frank White and someone else wanted. These coaches tend to go after guys who can play, but sometimes lack a dimension in their game allowing them to be in the Top 50. Great ball handler with a lot of speed. Maybe not a sharp shooter. Maybe not super springy. But I reckoned he must have the kind of speed I've seen Selfs lesser PGs possess and Frankie's and Travis' starters possess. And I recalled that Frankie's and Travis' half pint guards had given us some head aches, even against great defenders like Tyshawn Taylor. So I inferred Self's interest in Mason must mean SPEED.

But then it was pointed out by someone, I forget who now, that the word was that Mason was slow.

That jaybate was wrong AGAIN! :-)

I am both interested to get it right, when I'm wrong, but also frequently chastised for being wrong, when it turns out I am right.

So: I dutifully withheld judgement and kept reading to see the proof that he was wrong. Maybe it was given, and I missed it. Sometimes when I am having fun working on my speed bag (JayShagen), after he lays down one of his mendacity barrages, I am having so much fun I miss something here or there.

But by and by I read ralster putting a merciless cudgel on Frank Mason's lack of speed. Now, ralster, I always have to give a little extra weight to, because he tends to think it through and to have thought on something before riffing.

But--and no knock to the ralster intended--I could not quite understand what info lead him to his rather definitive observations about young Mr. Mason. Since I have never known him to reason with ether, I suspect, if he sees my post here, he will clarify what source of information caused him to draw his conclusion about Mason's deficiencies.

But then the plot thickened a bit, as it often does in threads.

Mike Bratisax 5 years, 7 months ago

In my mind, when teams and recruits are lining up visits it has passed the casual interest and into the actively recruiting phase.

But as ralster stated..who really knows outside the coaches? I'm sure coaches have have intentionally tried to misdirect competitors in the recruiting game.

jaybate 5 years, 7 months ago

If I recall correctly, HEM weighed in somewhere around the same time as ralster did, and began analyzing the Mason recruitment from the OAF (i.e., one and flush) standpoint. HEM's take did not appear to hinge on how slow Mr. Mason reputedly was. It hinged on his 133 (or thereabouts) ranking. And the main thrust was that Frank Mason's recruitment probably implied that Self doubted he was going to be able to sign a highly ranked PG this season. But HEM will, if he reads this post, no doubt clarify his intentions, if I have mistated them.

So to summarize to this point, we have four (including mine) more or less distinguishable threads of doubt about Mr. Mason's worthiness as a KU recruit:

1) The 133 ranked Mason must be being recruited because of speed, based on inference based on his size and the kinds of players the coaches pursuing Mason tend to recruit;

2) Mason's slowness, contrary to my inference, introduced by whom I am not sure;

3) woeful slowness put forth by our usually reliable ralster; and

4) Mason's low rank making him fit into an OAF profile, but without an explicit assumption of slowness.

Now, of course, there is also the usual gaggle of anserine remarks, but, as of now, this seems the anatomy of this rumor. :-)

Sorry I could not resolve it, but until we can, tidying up what we do know never hurts. :-)

Rock Chalk!

jaybate 5 years, 7 months ago

Erratum: four threads of doubt, or optimism, about Mason's recruitment.

jaybate 5 years, 7 months ago

Note: serialTheDisclaimerer alias was created September 17, 2012--the day jaybate first dug deeply into the ShoeCo-Summer Game-Agency Complex that reputedly corrupts D1, and explored relationships between oil, shoes and athletic departments.

Jack Wilson 5 years, 7 months ago

jb: My OAF take is generally based on his ranking .. but more so on where Mason fit on Self's pecking order (which, strangely, squares most of the times with rankings .. funny how that works). I am assuming Mason would have gone the way of the do do bird if Barber, or Jackson, or Jones, or Jordan, or Peters committed. Fair assumption with Frankamp in the bag.

It was also premised on our roster depth and future recruting efforts that would seek to make him irrelevant by bringing in better players. It also was premised in large part on his initial commitment to .. Towson, Florida International's twin, and he didn't have Isiah Thomas' endorsement. It should also tell us a little bit about the guy when Providence, Rutgers, and Va. Tech are main suitors for Mason.

But in part too on the dreadful scouting report below from ESPN (there is more web info, including that he is a "warrior", "tough as nails", etc.). The report notes Mason needs to improve on his speed and quickness. That tells me that he isn't the lightning bug at 5'11" that you or I would have expected. Nothing on the trusted web refers Mason as a real quick guy, but for a link I noted below. Here's ESPN's scouting report:

Strengths: Mason is a very confident true point guard. He is a true floor general that can run the team. He pushes that ball and can shoot the 3 with deep range. Weaknesses: Mason is an average to good athlete at best. He can make deep 3's but his shot is more of a set shot. He will need to improve his speed and quickness and work to be a better defender in addition to adding strength. Bottom Line: Mason is a true point guard that has swagger and can run the team and make deep J's. He must work to improve his athletism and add strength but Mason can be trusted with the ball and has great upside.

There is some info suggesting he does have "speed". But that's much different than a scouting report re: how a kid might match up as a D-I point guard.

A link when he matched up vs. Barber (worth nothing other than of interest)

Mason seems to me like the perfect point guard at George Mason, or one of his actual pursuers other than KU. The extreme backup plan at KU. The classic OAF candidate.

jaybate 5 years, 7 months ago

Thanks for the details. Mason does seem an odd recruit, for so early in the recruiting season, given these items you have added.

jaybate 5 years, 7 months ago


If I interpret you corredtly, what you mean to say is that you are finally getting tired of being my speed bag and being exposed for shallow knowledge. Thanks for manning up in the infinitesimally small way you are capable of doing. :-)

soapisurfriend 5 years, 7 months ago

Looks like Mason may be headed to campus tomorrow. Apparently his paperwork did not clear through the NCAA in time for a visit this weekend. He sounds pretty excited about being here and I'm thinking he commits on his visit.

Robbk1066 5 years, 7 months ago

We need another PG for 2013. Have seen nothing from anyone on the team so far that fits this need. Nad needs to step up bigtime this year, even if he does we need a 2nd one a good one in 13. We are much more dangerous in our offense when the guards are interchangable. Con Fran is very good but will take a year or two to mussle up to go with that shot. We have height, wings and SG covered, could always do with another Center type or a tall scorer, who can't, but another PG would be very nice. Anyone rated just about works. On Brannen, would be very, very surprised if he has any doubts about coming here. Father and son state big plus for KU is the coach, honesty about working hard to challange him, and approach to the process. They beleive hard work with a talented coach is the key, not whose shoes they wear, what "extras" can be offered or how many one and dones can be flushed through the program. Guys like that cannot be swayed by anything offered this late in the process, unless the coach is let go, the opposite of that just happened... who cares that others try to poach commits, been that way since day 1 way way back. The long time coaches, the really good ones, always focus on character, and coachability to go with the talent. Think about the ones you see all the time. Senior guard at CT champ 2 years ago, TRob, Sherron, Tyle H, on and on. Both these guys in 13 are going to be fun to watch, with whoever comes back from this years really really good team.

jaybate 5 years, 7 months ago

To Robin, HEM, ralster et al,

I have been uncertain, but have assumed, that Frank Mason's rank referred to 133 out of all players and not 133rd out of all PGs. If he were the 133rd best PG, well, then he would become a very long shot. But if he is ranked 133rd among all players, then here is some recruiting math to put in context the relative attractiveness of a 133rd ranked player:

347 D1 programs last I heard.

x 13 rides per program.

/ 4.2 years per ride (wild guess at net effect of early departures plus 5 year red shirts)

= 1074 average rides distributed per season


133rd rank

/1074 rides distributed per season

= a player in the top 12% of slots available each season

So: while a top 133 may not be a good bet for a long term starter at a blue blood program, he also seems viable as a player to bring in when one misses out on the blue chips. The top 12% of players in a given season is pretty darned good in rough cut terms.

Next, you have to consider how many slots come up at the Top Ten programs.

10 Top programs

x 13 rides per program

/ 3.8 years per player per ride (lower for more early departures)

= 49.4 rides per year to blue blood programs

So there are 50 rides at the 10 top programs per year vying for the Top 50 players.

And this, I suspect, is where the recruiting asymmetries triggered by the ShoeCo-Summer Game-Agency Complex really muck things up.

If the Top 4-6 players are channeled to one school, say, a UK, then there are only 44-46 Top 50 players left to divide among the remaining 9 top programs.

And if you take out another, oh, say, 10 players choosing largely on staying in-state, that leaves only 34-36 Top 50 players to be distributed amongst 9 remaining Top Ten programs.

And that means about 3.8 Top 50 players/team are available, if there were no further bias based on shoe brand of the player and shoe brand of the program.

Well, every Top Ten program could certainly live with 3.8 difference makers showing up per season, right?

But the recruiting game space is reputedly not level regarding this bias created by the ShoeCo-Summer Game-Agency bias.

So: let's adjust this down (very arbitrarily) for KU to, say, 3.0.

jaybate 5 years, 7 months ago

But then there is another possible bias to consider.

It is the bias of a "wrong way" element within the ShoeCo-Summer Game-Agency Complex that actively wants to divert talent from "right way" programs, like KU. The evidence for the existence of such a bias is Norm Robert's experience at St. Johns.

So: let's say that the "Wrong Way" bias reduces the numbers of Top 50 players significantly, too. I won't run through all the numbers again. Let's just ball park a reduction down to 2 Top 50 players being available to KU and Self, if they don't make any mistakes.

The above hypothesis leaves very little margin for error for Self.

And it suggests the steepness of the recruiting terrain he is dealing with up in the Top 50 player realm, and why it just may not be feasible for him to do better than this until the "right way" types find a way to remove some of the asymmetries they are up against.

jaybate 5 years, 7 months ago

P.S.: And I forgot to add in the asymmetric effect of population base on the in-state decision adjustment.

Because Kansas is a low population state relative to a number of the Top Ten programs, it is quite naturally going to have fewer instate difference makers year in and year out choosing to stay in state.

So, if anything, my final number should be even a bit lower.

So: my point here is that Self may in fact be doing an absolutely super human job of recruiting the last few years, given the scandals, and given the asymmetries of the situation I have hypothesized that he may be facing.

Robin Smith 5 years, 7 months ago

Rankings are not completely reliable.

There are quite a few players who were ranked in the 100s who have since made it into the NBA or simply had great college careers. Here are a few examples:

2006 104 Luke Harangody Notre Dame 120 Nic Wise Arizona 128 Ishmael Smith Wake Forest 147 Deshaun Butler West Virginia 150 Dexter Pittman Texas

2007 102 Robert Sacre Gonzaga 115 Mike Scott Virginia 118 Dallas Lauderdale Ohio State 131 Taylor Battle Penn State 132 Rakim Sanders Boston College 142 Lavoy Allen Temple 145 Festus Ezeli Vanderbilt

2008 100 Tu Holloway Xavier 102 Erving Walker Florida 103 Mark Lyons Xavier 111 Kim English Mizzou 113 Kris Joseph Syracuse 115 Reggie Jackson Boston College 122 Draymond Green Michigan State 124 Jordan Taylor Wisconsin 130 Jared Swopshire Louisville 132 Demetri Goodson Gonzaga 150 Marcus Denmon Mizzou

2009 121 Stephen Pledger Oklahoma 122 Kevin Parrom Arizona 136 Michael Dixon Mizzou 138 AJ Walton Baylor 140 Khris Middleton Texas A&M 142 Brandon Triche Syracuse

2010 111 Aaron Craft Ohio State 125 Terrrell Stoglin Maryland 132 Lenzelle Smith Ohio State 142 Ralston Turner Louisiana State 144 Victor Oladipo Indiana

As you can see there are plenty of players in just the last handful of years whose careers after high school exceeded their ranking-based expectations. Some players from the more recent classes might still have breakout seasons and merit inclusion on this list. Not saying that Mason is that kind of player, but just pointing out that the rankings cannot simply be taken as truth. In a general way they tell us the likelihood that a player will be of such-and-such caliber. Sorry for the inclusion of those Mizzou players ;) Plus there are quite a few more I would have included as being solid D1 starters/contributors, but I felt the list was getting lengthy enough.

Jack Wilson 5 years, 7 months ago

Appreciate the work in gathering those names.

Ok .. so in 5 years you located 34 total players between 100 and 150 (inclusive) whose careers exceeded their rankings. That seems even a bit shy to me. That's just 34 out of 255. That's 13.3%.

I do understand the relevance of pointing out the exceptions .. to show that there is hope for a 100 - 150 kid, or, conversely, to prove the rule (that rankings are the best indicator). To put it in perspective, less than 3 out of 20 exceeded their ranking in your example. That does help prove the rule (that rankings are the best indicator).

I think that it is reasonable to think that a 100-150 player would be a decent D-I player. My entire approach to the rankings is premised on KU. Not the rest of the D-I world. A decent player at Texas A&M, or Nebraska, or Towson, may have no business in our rotation. We are top 5 program. We should be able to field a rotation with top 100 talent every season, with the exception here and there. The necessity of 100 - 150 players in KU's rotation should be very limited.

I do hope you understand that really no one on this message board, that I've seen (other than a few random folks), has ever really said that rankings are to be taken as the "truth", or "completely reliable", which what you state as the premise of your post. As for me, I've always said they are our best guide.

All rankings are .. at the core .. are the absolute best indicator that we have as outsiders to determine the liklihood a player will have for significant success at the D-I level. It is much more reliable than you suggest when you say "in a general way."

Heck, we might have an exception to the rule right here .. a true 13.3%er. Zach Peters. We'll see. You just don't want to rely on too many of them if you want to stay a top 5 program.

Robin Smith 5 years, 7 months ago

These are more than decent players and there were many more I could have included.

One big thing to take away from the list above is which types of recruiting minds found these underrated players.

In general the rankings are accurate (I've said this many times before) but we're recruiting individuals and it's not a science even if we calculate percentages and statistics ;)

So yeah, I wouldn't suggest that you and I select some random 100+ player to advocate on behalf of, but if Self is going after him then that speaks volumes regardless of what his ranking says.

Jack Wilson 5 years, 7 months ago

Robin: A couple of points to consider .. first, a players that actually play and contribute don't prove your point. Meaning, a player 100 - 150 that plays to his ranking does not further your point. You identified players that clearly exceeeded their rankings. The "many more" you could have identified, by and large, played to their rankings.

Second, and this is another point you have made that support the rankings .. you fall back on the "but if Self is going after him then that speaks volumes regardless of what his ranking says" statement. A statement many before you have made. Of course, Self is targeting "who" first? That's right, the higher ranked players. Think about when Mason's visit came up? Right, after Barber, Jackson, Jones, Jordan, etc., were off the board. As I've mentioned before, Mason is like Plan G, behind A-F; He's back-up plan's back-up plan times 4.

So no, just because Self is going after him should not "speak volumes." You have to put it in perspective of where we are in the recruiting process. Just like Self getting Traylor, or Braeden Anderson, or Merv Lindsay, should not speak volumes. It only speaks volumes as to the quality of player we missed on before we targeted the back-up plan, to the back-up plan, etc.

Could Mason develop into a worthy player? Sure. But that's not what this discussion is about, is it? It's about probabilities of success. And that's all rankings (and coach Self's targeting of players .. mostly one in the same) is all about.

Robin Smith 5 years, 7 months ago

I support the rankings, don't get me wrong. I'm actually in agreement with you. I'm just trying to make an additional point that augments the way we discuss these things. I don't think the rankings need advocates either. I'm putting this out there for anyone who is not already a member of the choir.

All we know of recruits is limited and speculative ahead of time and we see plenty of guys who are ranked highly and whose numbers and videos seem to substantiate it, but who disappoint. So much has to do with intangibles and unknowns that rankings do not always reflect. See I'm addressing these exceptions as a means of tempering expectations, which tend to see these people as static and valuated commodities rather than people.

I think we might find that Self has a higher success rate than the recruiting analysts, so my point is to see the rankings as guidelines but to set them aside when we are discussing the specific recruit.

I also happen to think that beyond the OADs there is not a huge separation between the rest of the top 150 and that the difference is minor and is in development and consistency, which are where our coaches and trainers come in.

I would also just like to reiterate that from the above list of 100+ recruits we could field an All-American team.

jaybate 5 years, 7 months ago


You've done a real service to the board rats' nester, er community with this list, regardless of which side of the issue one may be on and regardless of how persons choose to interpret its meanings. Thanks and a very big...

Rock Chalk!

Robin Smith 5 years, 7 months ago

Thanks jaybate and thank you also HEM.

I am enjoying the critical discourses we're having :D

I think the best of both words would be ideal, where we try to see both sides simultaneously.

Alohahawk 5 years, 7 months ago

Mahalo for that info, KonkeyDong. That should help clear the air about Self's involvement with de-commits, and especially Young. And just adds that much more to Cal Lie Pari's negative recruiting legacy, after his immediate contact with T. Jones, after TJ had declared so openly to Washington over the airwaves.

Alex Peekeaton 5 years, 7 months ago

Re: "after his immediate contact with T. Jones"...Actually, the facts of the T. Jones recruitment was Terrence called Calipari within an hour of the press conference in which he picked Washington. Both Calipari and Jones have confirmed this. During this phone call, Terrence told Calipari that he "made a mistake and wants to reconsider". Calipari never contacted Terrence Jones after his press conference and TJ never signed a letter of intent to go to Washington. Dont let the facts get in your way...

Alohahawk 5 years, 7 months ago

You've always been a Kenstinky troll, and I learned early on to skip over any post with your nom de plume (and the odors that permeate from them), knowing it would be the usual pile of unverifiable crap. However, since you made a direct reply to my post, I felt somewhat compelled to read it. After due consideration, about a milisecond, I came to the conclusion that your full of the usual dodo. And I felt I must clear the air, so to speak, of your absurd, for lack of a better term, bull****.

I don't believe a word you just posted. Of course they're going to lie about what really came down. That's their version, and you took their bait like any 'dumb cluck' would, hook, line and sinker. Freedom of speech may give a person the right to express their views, but a person should consider what their saying before walking into a redneck bar and shouting that they don't like rednecks. (Or visiting another schools board to upchuck.) I don't post (or visit) Kenstinky's boards (and never will). I couldn't care less what they post on them. So why do you have to impose your unwanted rubbish on ours? Stay to your own boards, or did they kick you out due to your bad odor? I find your Kenstinky dodo offensive!!!!

Should I hope you don't respond, thus, making my day, or should I hope you do, because it will be a waste of your feeble mental capabilities. Because I won't read it.

Alex Peekeaton 5 years, 7 months ago

So Alohahawk, I guess you have the truth even though you weren’t there. So we should take your word over the two people (Calipari & TJ) who both confirmed what actually happened. You can always throw SHlT out there and see if it sticks, but the truth is (and this is directly from TJ), TJ called every one of the coaches who recruited him and thank them for the time spent during his recruitment. Don’t you think the fact he never signed a letter of intent with Washington during or after his press conference tell you he wasn’t sure what he was doing? I also read that his older sister who was attending Howard University at the time watched her brother’s press conference and was quoted as saying that he is still confused by just watching him as the event was taking place. But once again, you know what happened and Calipari, TJ, and his sister are all lying. What makes it laughable is the fact you get into “Freedom of Speech” and “I don’t post on Kentucky’s board” to sway from the fact that you don’t have anything to back up your statements! Simply put, I post the FACTS.
Just a word for the wise - Stick with the FACTS my friend…the national championship game is over and it’s time for you to move on. Your complete obsession on continually posting negative remarks about Kentucky and Calipari is a telling sign about you as a fan. I’m guessing all the negative posts on UK/Calipari actually makes you feel better – how sad. There are a number of knowledgeable posters on this thread that give a great analysis on the KU program and college basketball as a whole. Unfortunately, you aren’t one of them…Mehalo

Tony Bandle 5 years, 7 months ago


[Warning respectfully posted for any K-Sate or Missouri fans..KU fans don't need the warning...we're way ahead of these weenies". ]

Jack Wilson 5 years, 7 months ago

From ESPN:

Kansas has been aggressively mining the point guard market in recent months even after landing a mid-July commitment from Conner Frankamp (Wichita, Kan./North), the sixth-ranked point guard in the ESPN 100.

While Frankamp is certainly dependable initiating the offense, his specialty is his ability to rain 3s from behind the arc. So the Jayhawks' staff has been actively pursuing another lead guard who can complement him with some speed and quickness off the dribble.

The Jawhawks have missed out on a few of their top targets in recent weeks with Anthony Barber (Hampton, Va./Hampton) committing to North Carolina State, Demetrius Jackson (Mishawaka, Ind./Marian) pledging to Notre Dame and junior college standout Chris Jones (Memphis, Tenn./Northwest Florida State College) picking Louisville.

Uncommitted point guard Frank Mason will visit Kansas later this week.Those developments have left Frank Mason (Petersburg, Va./Massanutten Military Academy) at the top of coach Bill Self's wish list. Mason is a post-graduate guard who previously signed with Towson during his senior season at Petersburg High, but he reopened his recruitment after opting to do a year of prep school.

Mason holds offers from Virginia Tech, Providence, Rutgers, UTEP and South Carolina, among others, but has held off setting up any official visits until he first visits Kansas.

That official visit was initially scheduled to take place this past weekend until a last-minute delay with the NCAA Eligibility Center caused the trip to be pushed back a week. Now Mason is expected to be in Kansas from Thursday to Saturday, and if all goes well he could presumably have a decision shortly afterward.

Massanutten head coach Chad Myers said Mason has been a terrific addition for a post-graduate program that hopes to be among the nation’s best this season.

“He’s been really good,” Myers said. “He competes every day, plays really hard and enjoys working out and being in the gym every day.”

Even if Kansas adds a commitment from Mason or another point guard in the near future, don’t expect it to be done recruiting in the Class of 2013. The Jayhawks are still in the mix for several of the nation’s top uncommitted prospects, including ESPN 100 No. 1 player Jabari Parker (Chicago/Simeon), No. 3 Julius Randle (Dallas/Prestonwood Christian), No. 5 James Young (Rochester, Mich./Rochester), No. 6 Aaron Gordon (San Jose, Calif./Archbishop Mitty), No. 7 Noah Vonleh (Haverhill, Mass./New Hampton), No. 14 Wayne Selden (Boston/Tilton) and No. 17 Jermaine Lawrence (Springfield Gardens, N.Y./Pope John XXIII), among others.

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