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Big 12 Conference

Wednesday, September 12, 2012

Keegan

TCU’s first Big 12 test: Forget KU’s woes

By Tom Keegan

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First-year Kansas University football coach Charlie Weis thinks highly of the job Gary Patterson has done at TCU. Only a dumb guy would think otherwise.

Weis stopped short of saying of Patterson what Bum Phillips once said of his former Texas A&M boss Bear Bryant: “He can take his’n and beat your’n and take your’n and beat his’n.” But he did praise Patterson’s work, pointing out his team has led the nation in defense five times in 13 seasons.

Weis no doubt would take his chances with Patterson’s players this Saturday if that meant the TCU coach had to take Weis’. The Horned Frogs are bigger, faster, more experienced at winning.

Weis did point out that Patterson has the difficult challenge of getting his players to believe that winning will require more than simply taking the field with 11 players on offense, 11 on defense, 11 on special-teams plays.

Ah, but this is the Big 12 debut for TCU, which repeatedly had been shunned by the conference. Rich motivational material, right?

“Let’s be practical,” Weis said. “OK, let’s just sit here and reflect for a second. So we just lost at home to Rice, right? I got that right, right? Blew the game at home, up by two scores.”

Correct on all fronts. Or, as Tim Fitzgerald of gopowercat.com said, “Kansas choked on Rice.”

“So the (TCU) coaches are going to come and say, ‘Hey, this team is much better than that.’ And the players are going to watch the tape,” Weis said.

And what they’ll see is Dayne Crist, protected well, holding the ball waiting for a receiver to break free. On those instances one did, he tended to throw over or behind the target. They also will see bad snaps to a field-goal kicker who can’t seem to put it through the uprights.

And from the Week 1 tape, TCU defensive backs will see Crist throwing a pass into the flat that every one of them would have returned for six points, even though South Dakota State didn’t intercept it.

“So no matter how many times those coaches sit there and tell them how good Kansas is, the bottom line is we got by South Dakota State and we just lost to Rice,” Weis said.

When TCU looks at its own tape it will see what Weis saw.

“I just watched them play 49 snaps of defense, played the same front and coverage 46 times, and gave up about two yards (70) in the game,” Weis said. “I saw the quarterbacks throw the ball 17 times and they completed 17 passes. That’s what I’m looking at.”

In previous jobs, during the good seasons, Weis had been the one trying to trigger adrenaline in superior players. He said coaches even went as far as laying mouse traps around the locker room to remind players they were facing a trap game. He can keep those traps in storage this year. Kansas figures to play the underdog role in each of the remaining 10 games.

Comments

Table_Rock_Jayhawk 8 months, 1 week ago

Coach Weis sounds defeated in that press conference. This job is not an easy. It took Mangino years to build it...and it will likely take Weis years to build it.

The question is...is he willing to get his hands dirty enough to stick it out in Lawrence for 8 to 12 years...and have the diligence that's needed to make us successful again ?

Or will he be gone after a couple of bad seasons...with low ranked recruiting classes coming in on the horizon ?

This is why I appreciated Mangino. He was thorough...worked his tail off sawin wood for 8 years to make us respectable...after Terry Allen left behind his D-2 athletes.

Several of us took that for granted...and didnt have his back when Perkins finally pulled the trigger on his agenda.

We've been paying the price ever since.

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JJHawq 8 months, 1 week ago

We did the same with glen mason. We win a few games and suddenly people wonder why we're not going after Belichik.

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jhox 8 months, 1 week ago

Looks to me like Mangino left behind D2 athletes for his successors. Who do you think recruited many of our current upper classmen? The fact is, Mangino got fat and happy. Instead of building on the success of the Orange Bowl win, he got lazy (likely thinking a bigger, better program would come calling, and they never did.) One and seven in the conference his last year with the most successful QB in school history at the helm...the kind of thing that will get a coach fired.

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IlBastardo 8 months, 1 week ago

4th best recruiting class in the Big 12 in his final season. You are obviously one of the people who didn't have his back when Perkins pulled the trigger on his agenda, as you bought into the Perkins propaganda hook, line, and sinker, and here's your comfortable excuse: "...Yep. If I seen it once, I seen it a million times. He just got lazy." You must have missed the article posted a week ago today, where former assistant coach Reagan praised Mangino, and I quote “[N]one of us could have learned anything without the work ethic coach Mangino put in there.” That or your Lew Perkins rose-colored goggles filtered that line out. Maybe you also missed "[W]e had the best five years in the history of KU football." But you've seen it all before, right? You're in his head. You know what he was "likely" thinking. Go reconvene with MarchPhog and see if you can come up with something a little more persuasive.

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jhox 8 months, 1 week ago

For the record, I didn't think he deserved to be fired for one bad year but, at the same time, once the allegations came out he would have been forever crippled as a recruiter. At the same time, I can't believe how naive people are to think that he was fired solely for player mistreatment. Had he won 8 or 9 games none of that would have gotten him fired. As for the number 4 recruiting class, all I can ask is "where's the beef?" because I don't see that kind of talent in either of his last 2 classes.

He was a difficult guy to work for. Assistants who were key to the recruiting and coaching success of the program left. He could definitely X and O with the best of them, but when he quit bringing in underrated players like Meyer, Reesing, and Talib, all of the X's and O's in the world were not going to save his job. I am thankful to him for the great years, especially the Orange Bowl year. I got to see my team win the Orange Bowl! But it is revisionist history to think the program was still on strong footing when he left. What's over is over. We now need to give Weis a chance. Mangino ain't comin' back.

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jhox 8 months, 1 week ago

By the way, Perkins is gone too. He definitely made his share of mistakes, but he isn't coming back either. It is time to move forward, not backward.

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Phoghorn 8 months, 1 week ago

I assume that Sunbelt is #1 now that ULM beat Arkansas.

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BringBackMark 8 months, 1 week ago

Gee, everyone starting to see what we had with Mangino? Perkins was after his head from the minute he was hired. He'd have been gone after year two if we hadn't made a bowl game and we'd have probably gotten Turner Gill, or someone much like him, that much sooner.

The quality that has lacked since Mangino is finding that "diamond in the rough". Look at what Snyder wins with, it's 2 and 3 star players that he develops. They're hungry and more important, overlooked by the big boys. They're also coachable.

I doubt that Mangino would ever consider coming back here, but if so, once this experiment is over we should go beg him to come back and rebuild the program again.

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nuleafjhawk 8 months, 1 week ago

BBM - it ain't gonna happen. It just aint.

If you are able, take an objective look at what MM did while he was here. Sure, he took us to some bowl games (which IS a very big deal, especially for KU football), but his overall record was not great - not even good.

He simply was not a good football coach. Better than what we were used to, but not good.

The KU administration has displayed over the last 100+ years that they are not interested in providing the fans with consistent, top quality football. And in fairness to them, what top-tier coach wants to come here? You think Urban Meyer chose Columbus, Ohio over Lawrence, Ks (no, we were never in the running - just sayin) because of the weather, or because of the name OHIO STATE?

The guys that we KNOW can take a team and turn them into perennial powers are not going to come here. We can't pay them enough - they already have all the money they can spend. They don't want to risk their glossy winning percentages to come here. The only way we get great coaching is if we just luck into it. The football version of a Roy Williams, if you will. Someone stumbles into place as coach and just happens to be great.

I'm not convinced that CW is that guy.

Oh hell - now i've talked myself into it -

BRING BACK MARK!

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bb73 8 months, 1 week ago

Patterson has stayed at TCU when better jobs came along. His pay was less than offers made to him at the time. If Snyder can win at K-State and Baylor can become a power in both sports then why the negativity?

Some of these posts don't make sense. Such posts are quitter's talk!

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nuleafjhawk 8 months, 1 week ago

Are you replying to ME?

Patterson is a proven winner. I'm not talking about anyone turning down more money to leave KU - I'm talking about why would a proven winner come TO KU regardless of what we would pay him?

Snyder is a PERFECT example of what I mentioned near the end of my rambling - a guy stumbles into place (Snyder at K-State) and just happens to be great. He was an assistant at Iowa - nobody had ever heard of the man. K-State got lucky and we will have to get lucky also, because no top tier coach is ever going to come here.

That's not negative brother - that's reality.

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squawkhawk 8 months, 1 week ago

Because Charlie Weis is no Bill Snyder (or Gary Patterson for that matter).

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april28 8 months, 1 week ago

Mangino had a losing record in the Big 12 over 8 years. Please quite acting like he was some sort of a hero. The program was headed down, he had peaked behind an all-time great quarterback and was 1/2 the coach Snyder is.

What was Mangino's record his first two years? Mason's? Snyder's? The program was in as bad of shape as it has ever been in history - it might take more than a couple of games to fix it.

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IlBastardo 8 months, 1 week ago

So, why are you willing to allow Weis more than a couple games to fix the shape of the program, but Mangino has to start winning immediately or you write him off? Since Weis is having to build this program back up from the ground, you can understand why he could have an overall losing record in several years and still have done great things for us, right? April28. Old dog, same tricks.

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Phoghorn 8 months, 1 week ago

7 of those losses that April mentioned came in his final 7 games. Yeah, Coach Mangino elevated our program, but let's not think he was the second coming of Knute Rockne.

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IlBastardo 8 months, 1 week ago

So what do you attribute those losses to? Mangino just woke up and couldn't coach anymore? Did Spacejam suggest this theory to you guys, or what? I know it's the comfortable explanation, but let's try to use some logic. What was unique about that season? Couldn't have been Lew Perkins' meddling and the subsequent witch hunt in the program.

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Phoghorn 8 months, 1 week ago

Yes, that is what happened...well actually he drove off all the assistant coaches and players. Assistant coaches left, players quit giving a damb and we all saw the results. In short, his schtik got old.

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IlBastardo 8 months, 1 week ago

Fascinating. All that in his last seven games then? He went off the deep end after 8 years?

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jayhawkintx1973 8 months, 1 week ago

Snyder's first two years were pretty bad as well as Glen Mason's first few, but Mason did beat Oregon and Oregon State in first few years and the games weren't even close. KUs defense dominated those games. However, Turner Gill left a bigger mess than this University has ever seen in the football program. Lots of stuff showing up with the attitude and the lack of urgency of some of the players on this team. By the way, Mangino beat Bill Snyder in 2004 then Snyder quit. Then all of these former aides of Bill Snyder, Leavitt, Leach, Mangino all get canned in the same season. The one before Snyder returns. Only one still standing is Stoops at Oklahoma, wonder why that is? $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

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texashawk10 8 months, 1 week ago

Glen Mason never coached against Oregon. Last time KU played Oregon in football was a home and home in 1980 and '81. They tied in 1980 in Eugene and KU won in Lawrence the next year. KU did play Oregon State in 1990 and 1992, but those were terrible Oregon St. teams.

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AtlJaybird 8 months, 1 week ago

Please, I'm begging you, stop digging up that dead horse. Just let it go!

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nuleafjhawk 8 months, 1 week ago

Or, as Tim Fitzgerald of gopowercat.com said, “Kansas choked on Rice.”

Anyone wonder what Mr Fitzgerald will say on the day that K-State gets beat by South Carolina ??

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bville_hawk 8 months, 1 week ago

Now THAT's funny! Deep throat revisited.

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LarryNative 8 months, 1 week ago

Lol. I want ksu to lose now just so a ljw reporter can write it. Lmao! Thx

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79ictjhawk 8 months, 1 week ago

As someone that has had lots of good posts, that was your best ever nuleaf!

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Pork_Ribs 8 months, 1 week ago

Sorry Tom...KU will not even be a test for TCU.

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jhawkrulz 8 months, 1 week ago

Everyone knew it was going to be a tough year...maybe not this tough, but still I think we will sneak in an extra win or two.

I also think some of these teams will play 4 quarters against us instead of 1.5 (Okie state last year).

I'm loving KU football and we have the man at the top that will move the program forward. I was hoping for a surprise year this year, but even if it doesn't happen, I know we have more in the pipeline upcoming.

It is hard to rebuild when you have to play 7 ranked teams (and maybe more).

0

dannyboy4hawks 8 months, 1 week ago

Plz stop with the Mangino love fest.....I for one would have paid him to leave. I couldn't tolerate him one more game, Orange Bowl or No Orange Bowl.

Coach Weis knows what he got himself into and is willing to build us into a respectable program if not more.

So many Mangino lovers with jeans torn at the knees

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Phoghorn 8 months, 1 week ago

Yeah, but at least he was the last KU coach to beat Oklahoma...oh, wait that was Terry Allen...

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Phoghorn 8 months, 1 week ago

The root of KU Football woes began not in 2009, but in 1899. Yes, you read that right, 1899. KU went undefeated that year under a young and promising coach by the name of Fielding Yost. Sadly, he left after one year at KU and was coaching at Stanford in 1900. Later he would lead Michigan to six National Championships.

KU failed to retain Fielding Yost, and we have suffered the consequences ever since.

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nuleafjhawk 8 months, 1 week ago

The ghost of Yost has turned our football post into the utmost pile of compost. From coast to coast, we could be the subject of a comedy central roast.

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Phoghorn 8 months, 1 week ago

Well done sir. I raise a toast to a clever post.

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KGphoto 8 months, 1 week ago

That's actually very interesting. What could've been. Who was the AD then, and what kind of money did Yost receive to leave KU?

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Phoghorn 8 months, 1 week ago

Thanks. Sadly I don't know the details, but here is an interesting link: http://graphics.fansonly.com/photos/schools/kan/sports/m-footbl/auto_pdf/06-mg-history.pdf

May be a tad slow to load.

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KGphoto 8 months, 1 week ago

Don't know how we can compete with TCU. Maybe run it right at Maponga, hope to control the ball and keep up. We aren't equipped yet to handle an effective spread offense, so they are probably going to score a lot. Their OL is newish, and Grambling State is so bad it's hard to get an accurate gauge on just how good their offense is, but TCU has playmakers 2 and 3 deep at every offensive skill position, and Paschall looks real comfy back there in his second year. At 6'5" he can see the field and pick you apart. We need to sell out on defense and make sure he's UNcomfortable back there.

Even then we're gonna need some big plays. First off yank Beshears from any and all kick return duties. They guy can't hang on to the ball. Put in Parmalee. For god's sake put in Parmalee! Why haven't we done this yet? Then start the game using Cox to run the ball. He's good enough to move the chains. They'll be waiting for Pierson. Use Cox and get them used to his more bruising style. Get them a little winded, then bust out the speed and hand it to Tony. I always thought it was weird to start the game with lightning and switch to thunder. Switch it up on 'em! Thunder then lightning.

Dayne! Run the damn ball if the space opens up! You weigh 235 pounds and they play 5 defensive backs. If you get past the first level you could hurt somebody. Do it!

I wanna see a 65/35 run to pass on Saturday. It's our bread and butter and nothing is more frustrating than being run on consistently and effectively. It'll keep TCU's spread off the field and it's probably our only chance of beating them. I know they are weak against the pass, but you gotta prove you can run first. I don't believe Crist "having fun" is enough to make the difference. Besides, having Maponga coming after you on every down doesn't sound like fun to me. It actually sounds like a nightmare.

Charlie. Well this is it bro. You said it yourself. You need to lead them. You are the big brain with the superbowl rings and the 33 years experience. It's big-boy-pants time for the players but you have to lead them.

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ralster 8 months, 1 week ago

Weis and staff just getting started. Installing offense, conditioning, keeping kids academically eligible... Campo trying to see what he can do with limited talent, limited size, limited depth. All the above posted nonsense actually yearning for Mangino is totally ridiculous. No one wants to mention just how trashed the program became under Gillidiot, hmm? This is what Weis has to work with. He does not have the early 2000's Patriots SuperBowl offense, nor the prolific Chiefs offense of 2yrs ago...Just see what he can build over 1-2yrs from now. I wouldnt give Gill another effin day, as he was not a football mind, nor a true professional--been around the game his whole life, and left nothing but bullschizz for us. Posters, please direct your venom more appropriately. Ever heard of root cause? I say Lew+Gill=gridiron disaster. Regarding Mangino, he had one helluva playmaker named Todd Reesing.

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squawkhawk 8 months, 1 week ago

Todd Reesing is to Mark Mangino as Tom Brady is to Charlie Weis. Sometimes one player can make the coach. Simple as that.

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oldalum 8 months, 1 week ago

I don't have the expertise to criticize or applaud Mangino's coaching, but I sure didn't think much of his people skills. He was hateful to everyone. He drove off all our best assistant coaches, and if a player had the misfortune to get on his bad side, he'd never see the field again no matter how skilled he was. He hated being the football coach at a "basketball school" where Self was constantly praised. I think the poor guy had a miserable life, heard the fat jokes all his life, and pretty much hated everyone. All of that pretty much negated what he could have accomplished.

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Phoghorn 8 months, 1 week ago

EXACTLY. KU FB went downhill the minute Bill Young left.

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IlBastardo 8 months, 1 week ago

People have such a problem attributing success to Mangino that we are led to believe his quarterback and assistant coaches were behind it all. The same people would laugh at me if I told them Mangino was behind K-State's and OU's since neither have repeated the successes they had with him as assistant coach. It's strange to see "fans" of a school go so far out of their way to besmirch a former coach's reputation. I could understand Roy Williams, maybe, but Mangino doesn't deserve your disrespect.

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HouTexHawk 8 months, 1 week ago

Maybe this can be game like Ga Tech two years ago. Also count me as one who would like to end the Mangino lovefest. I've said before that he elevated the program from 11 th or 12 th in the Big 12 to 7th or 8th. We had the magical season in 2007. All other bowls we made were third tier two of which were played before Christmas. Take away 2007 and Mangino had ZERO winning conference records.

This is going to take some time and it will be even more difficult because the conference is more competitive.

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lcjayhawk 8 months, 1 week ago

I've actually said the same thing before. Mangino elevated us to mediocrity, then plateaued. He didn't keep improving every year, just stagnated at the mid-level of the conference. Don't get me wrong, I'd kill for that level of success right now. But at the time, we needed to take the next step, and bring in a coach that could take us to the next level. We didn't bring in said coach, and the rest is history. Now here we are pining for the days of mediocrity.

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nuleafjhawk 8 months, 1 week ago

I've heard a few comments about hiring Turner Gill again. I guess if that happens, we could change the name of the football field to " Gill-again's Island ".

".....So join us here each week my friends, You're sure to get a smile, From eleven stranded castaways, Here on "Gill-again's Isle."

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PhogTimeKU2010 8 months, 1 week ago

I was definitely in the group of people against firing Mangino. But now he's gone, and we've got to move on. I'm not sure if this coaching staff is going to get it done, but one thing's for sure, nobody could fix this program overnight. We've got to relax a little bit, enjoy the small victories (not getting beat by more than 30 points by TCU, maybe?), and be patient. Other fans are quick to jump on the KU hate bandwagon because when we were good at football as well as basketball it had to be just a nightmare for our rivals. Can you imagine if mizzou or kstate won a BCS bowl and a NCAA championship in the same year? There are few futures I can imagine that would be darker for Lawrence, Kansas.

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