soapisurfriend 7 months, 2 weeks ago

A couple more names you could add, albeit not likely to be added to the class, would be Jermaine Lawrence and Detrick Mostella. Lawrence is really talented, but I'm fairly certain he goes to SU. Mostella is an interesting prospect because he is one of the better scoring guards in the country. Although he has not officially cut his list, it has been reported he has a top three, and that KU and Georgetown are the top two contenders for his services. This is interesting in itself because the staff hasn't even offered and there is really no room for him.

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HighEliteMajor 7 months, 2 weeks ago

Here's a link to a blog that has a decent summary -

http://jayhawk-talk.com/2012/10/03/chances-for-a-great-2013-class/

Here's a Mostella link -- strangely silent though. Seems like the same player as Adams. As soap mentioned, I haven't seen that we've offered him.

http://247sports.com/Article/Georgetown-Kansas-and-TAMU-pursuing-Detrick-Mostella-79577

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kcprimetime 7 months, 2 weeks ago

Just read an article in ESPN Magazine featuring Peters, Maryland & Georgetown. Very interesting dynamics in the greater DC region. Tone of Peters' comments sounds like he's not going "away" to college. He has no connection what so ever with KU coaches or the Midwest/Big 12. Would not be surprised if he cancels his KU visit.

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kcprimetime 7 months, 2 weeks ago

P.S. anybody know what happened to the guard from Ardmore, Nino Jackson? Thought he was going to some prep school this year and is now a 2013 recruit. Is KU still pursuing him?

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jhawk613 7 months, 2 weeks ago

I thought Self offered Nino. Then Nino got some pub on the summer circuit in 2011 and re-opened his recruitment to see if any other schools were interested and Self pulled the offer. I may be wrong though.

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JayDogger 7 months, 2 weeks ago

I think he decided he liked tattoos more than basketball.

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BBall2012 7 months, 2 weeks ago

the two sides were really never interested in each other...the statements from Jabari's father on asking potential coaches on how they will get Jabari the ball on the break so he can make plays is quite alarming.

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VaJay 7 months, 2 weeks ago

If that's the case, then good riddance!

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njjayhawk 7 months, 2 weeks ago

Randle is headed to Baker or Tabor (in McPherson, Ks). Count on it.

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AsadZ 7 months, 2 weeks ago

You must not have read several posts by HEM over the last few weeks. I am sure he will enlighten

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HighEliteMajor 7 months, 2 weeks ago

AsadZ - Come on .. you could do it just as easily.

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akgjenkintown 7 months, 2 weeks ago

Zac Peters will be a special player and will likely contribute substantially this season. It was early, but he was more of an inside force than Withey in Europe against the more athletic centers.

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bennybob 7 months, 2 weeks ago

there are 2 post positions on the floor. these OADs could play along side Ellis and form the best duo in the country

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texashawk10 7 months, 2 weeks ago

Ellis is likely a 3 year player. Education is legitimately important to him (he was valedictorian in HS) and he had enough college credits entering KU to where graduating in 3 years is a very realistic goal for Ellis.

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ralster 7 months, 2 weeks ago

There are some opinions out there that because Ellis is gifted academically, he doesnt have the "fire" in his game, compared to Thomas Robinson (for example). Point is bball/lotto was the "ticket" TRob was very motivated to punch. This is not any knock on SirThomas academically--I'm in agreement that he simply played with an astonishingly motivated motor and desire. I would love to see Ellis get pissed off...

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soapisurfriend 7 months, 2 weeks ago

This is an interesting point. During their sophmore seasons at Travis, Aaron and fellow D1 prospect, senior Anthony Odunsi got into a fight on the court because Odunsi was allegedly upset with the Twins not sharing the ball. While the two were sparring, Andrew sucker-punched Odunsi to the back of the head. This is a case that I was sure to effect their recruiting, but I never heard the story come up whatsoever from that point on. Thus, it may have changed the recruiting landscape here at Kansas because at the time, the Jayhawks were recruiting the twins and were considered contenders for their services.

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BBall2012 7 months, 2 weeks ago

There are some other accounts of the fight from people who were actually there...

http://texas.247sports.com/Board/21/Gerry-Can-you-confirm-this-about-the-Harrison-twins-1126687/1

Safe to say this didn't have any affect on their recruiting...

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jhox 7 months, 2 weeks ago

There is no mistaking the twins' skills. I'm guessing KU would have welcomed them open arms if they wanted to come to KU. I'm just surprised the number one guy in the class would be so enamored with playing with guys like that. Having two guards like that can make a big man's life miserable.

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jhox 7 months, 2 weeks ago

I've heard a number of their their AAU teammates didn't get along with them on court either.

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bennybob 7 months, 2 weeks ago

This post highlights what my concerns have been for the past 3 years perfectly.

Program's don't just go from winning a national title while simultaneously bringing in the #2 recruiting class in the country to that projected '13-14 roster overnight. It takes multiple years of losing more talent to graduation/NBA then your bringing in to deplete the embarrassment of riches this team use to boast.

Remember when the game announcers would jest that "KU's second 5 would probably be ranked in the top 25"? Remember when Self was able to bring in kids like the Morrii and Trob(ranked 25-40) and sit them on the bench for a couple years while they developed?

Recruiting has a lagging impact on a program. We are just know starting to experience the post-selby recruiting dip manifest itself on the court. Nobody will be boasting how talented this years team's bench is.

What I'm most worried about is the fact that the delayed impact recruiting has goes both ways. It took multiple years of sub par recruiting to get us to where we are now. It's going to take multiple years of elite recruiting to get us back to where we were. there is no quick fix for this situation other than compromising the program and making it Kentucky-esque.

take your what if scenario one step further and imagine what the '14-15 projected roster looks like if this years class only finishes ranked #10 like last years.

We've reached a tipping point, I've been trying to point it out for years only to be mocked and ridiculed. I get truly frustrated that people can look at the depth of last years and this years teams. Speculate on the potential roster's going forward. then look at the depth Self use to boast from '06-'10 and not see a huge difference.

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konkeyDong 7 months, 2 weeks ago

Benny, you talks as if where we are now is in a bad place. Did you miss last season or something? We went to the title game. We competed there. You consider it a fluke. I'm telling you the fluke was not bringing it all home in '10 and '11. We have another FF caliber team this year. That's where we are, as much as you try to deny it.

Now, you are correct in identifying that we do need to bring in another good haul to maintain the quality of the team that we've had under Self. We need one quality big and it would be desirable to pick up a PG. We're still on track in that regard. We're one top player away from a guaranteed top 5 class. Any two and we're looking at probably top 3. Save your hand-wringing for if we're not in that situation by April. We've got two top guys on the line and we're well positioned to reel in at two more. Just let it play out.

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bennybob 7 months, 2 weeks ago

I agree we are a final 4 contender this year and admit last year's team accomplished amazing things. so what's the difference between now and then?

Last year and this years team's will be 100% reliant on the starting 5. We use to bring guys like sherron collins and Trob off the bench as our energy spark guys. These last 2 years that role has fallen to a mid major transfer(young).

Bill Self is an amazing coach, he can win games with out a bench I'm not worried about that. what I'm worried about is at a program like Self's your bench is expected to become your starters a few year down the road. I was comfortable that Cole could step in and replace the amazing '08 front court. I was comfortable that in a few years the Morii could take over for Cole. I was comfortable that in a few years Trob and Withey could take over for the Morrii.

I am not comfortable with this year's bench being able to take over for Withey and Ellis down the road!

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HawkKlaw 7 months, 2 weeks ago

You were comfortable with Withey taking over for Markieff? If that is truly the case, you were probably the only person in the state of Kansas who was comfortable with that. Remember, Withey was completely unproven before last season. A lot of people were comparing him to Christian Moody. He went above and beyond what was expected of him last year. That's because, although he may not have been highly ranked, Self & Co. developed his skills over his first couple of years at Kansas. If you'll remember, there were a lot of people on this board that didn't think Withey was going to cut it (me included). Thankfully, he proved us wrong. There will be other players who step up and prove us all wrong, especially with a guy like Bill Self developing them.

Also, this year's team will not be 100% reliant on the starting 5 (and that wasn't the case last year, either). We have Tharpe as a solid backup PG, White as a solid backup SG/SF, Peters/Young as solid backup big men. Most schools don't have the a loaded bench like that.

I am completely comfortable with Zach Peters taking over for Ellis or Withey one day. On top of that, Bill Self still has time to go out and get another solid big guy before next season starts (and before the season after that, obviously).

And back when TRob was a backup, we were extremely lucky to have that caliber of a player as backup PF. That doesn't happen every year. Remember, when KU won it in '08, the backup PF was Sasha Kaun. I love Sasha, but he isn't even close to the caliber of player that TRob was. Having guys like TRob as a backup is a luxury that few teams are afforded in any year.

In short, I feel like you need to temper your expectations a bit. Bill Self is doing just fine, recruiting-wise. He will have KU reloaded next year like he has it reloaded for this year.

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bennybob 7 months, 2 weeks ago

Jeff Withey was a top 40 7-footer. I never thought he'd be as great as he was but i had alot more faith in him than i do traylor/peters/lucas.

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HawkKlaw 7 months, 2 weeks ago

Truth!

One good big and one good PG is all Self needs to have a top class before next season. KU is still in line to pick those up. We will be fine, benny ol' chap!

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phogphan2000 7 months, 2 weeks ago

Well no top 50 guys but Ellis, Frankamp and Greene. White just outside of it and assuming BMac is out the door might be hard for a recruit to do when nobody has seen him play a college game. BMac staying another year would obviously be a big positive, recruiting Selden obviously a big positive.

I'd argue even in the doomsday scenario that down season isn't so bad and could result in a huge class for 2014. Peters/Ellis/Traylor/Lucas/Wesley is far from a weak frontline. Any way you slice, people upset about Self missing out on bigs have to admit we've had an incredible front line ever since 06/07. One year with a merely good frontline wouldn't be that surprising, but we still haven't seen it. So how can you get upset with Self's recruiting up front until the front line isn't top5 in that nation?

Names like Mostella also remind us that even if KU misses out on the top targets, there are a lot of recruits out there interested in the chance to play in Lawrence. Then throw in the possibility of transfers and there are too many possibilities to think the worst case would be adding Frankamp/Greene, 'cause Self will bring in somebody else, maybe that has to sit a year. With a lot of freshmen that isn't a big difference as they need a year to develop anyway.

Bottom line, even in the worst case scenario I'd feel pretty good about: Tharpe/Frankamp/Adams/White/Greene/Ellis/Peters/Traylor/Lucas/Wesley making a push for the Big12 title 'cause that team is still sound and deep. BMac returns or add Selden, pick one of Adams/Tharpe to step up, 3/5 bigs play well, and you've got a really good 8 man rotation, really good. Without BMac or Selden and you've still got an 8 man rotation, but it puts a lot more pressure on the littles to all be ready to contribute. Now worst, worst case would include a player loss/injury, would be tough to handle from the wrong guy in the event of not adding anyone else, but it's tough for any team to lose a starter.

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HighEliteMajor 7 months, 2 weeks ago

Phogfan: It was related to top 50 big guys .. Greene and Frankamp aren't bigs. If we don't get a top 50 big, Ellis is the only one for 2013-14. We would have walkon Wesley, and Peters/Traylor/Lucas .. all outside the top 100.

I get what benny is saying. The Lucases, Peters, Andersons, Traylors, Tharpes, Adams, Doyles, Lindsays, and Youngs are not going to cut it as recruiting "gets" year in, and year out. They are not going to sustain a top program. You have make more big hits .. like McLemore, Ellis, White, Greene and Frankamp. A few more. Sustained success won't occur with top to bottom roster like last season. We need two more big adds this recruiting group.

Of course, as konkey suggests, we need to let it play out. I was just playing the what if game.

I don't think we'll strikeout the rest of the way.

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phogphan2000 7 months, 2 weeks ago

HEM, we've had several years with only 1 top50 small, and that's covering 3 positions rather than 2.

Think about the teams Self took to the Elite Eight from Tulsa and Illinois, the 08/09 team that won a conf title over the Griffins and was a minute from the Elite Eight and of course last year's team that rolled through conference and on to the title game. There's no doubt HCBS has had "sustained success" with those types of rosters. So fans like bennybob can complain about recruits, but I'll take our guys and HCBS over BU's guys or NCSt's guys and their coaches.

Certainly it's nice to have 6 or 7 top50 guys on a team, but not necessary, and everyone had to see some advantages to the shortened rotation last season. I'd hate to think that Releford has more pressure on him this year to not make a mistake 'cause White and Young are ready off the bench or we can go to a 3 guard Tharpe/EJ/BMac lineup, I want TRel to play looser.

Worst case it could be that way for 1 year. Even then sophomores Perry Ellis, Peters, Lucas, RS Soph Traylor and Sr Wesley isn't a soft front line. I'm still in the camp that thinks Peters is worthy of a top100 rating, possibly even higher, not that I expect him to perform great this season. As you say though, Self will most likely pick up somebody in the top50 bigs 'cause they'll see that W is leaving and playing time is wide open. Here's what I'm thinking about next year though, if Self lands Embiid, is he really gonna play that much? If other guys don't develop maybe he would, but unless it's a guy like Randle it most likely isn't going to be a big boost for '13-'14. Obviously transfer D Harris would have been a big get at this point assuming Randle doesn't pick KU.

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bennybob 7 months, 2 weeks ago

the '08-'09 team should have lost the the conference title race to the griffins. The only reason we won that year was Griffin was hurt when we had to go to oklahoma and play them. plus that was the year after winning the national championship in which self lost 7 guys to NBA/graduation. ill give any coach a pass the next year after that situation.

Still '08-'09 roster:

Cole Aldrich(#30) Sherron Collins(#21) Morri(#'29 & 49) Tyshawn Taylor(#77) Travis Releford(#70)

The worst team talent wise during Self's golden area was still 6 deep!

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phogphan2000 7 months, 2 weeks ago

So why would you think of guys for next year that are going to be sophomores as any less valuable than TT as a freshman? For instance 'Rio is top100 and will have a year under his belt. Tharpe was top100 and will be a junior, then top50 talent in Ellis, Greene and Frankamp, White right around the same ranking as Markieff was...worst case the overall talent level is still on par with 08/09 and Peters is quite possibly an underrated player. So that's worst case, it's a shift of talent from froncourt to backcourt certainly, but overall the talent is still there. The other good news is these freshman and Tharpe get to play alongside this senior class and Tharpe was able to practice and play with last year's team as well. When Rush/Chalmers/Wright came onto the scene there was a total void in the upperclasses, which is probably why Self landed such a great class and probably why he'll land one again in either this class or the next one.

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HighEliteMajor 7 months, 2 weeks ago

Phog .. you make some good points. I am not a big fan of the Embiid project idea. I don't prefer a scholarship player that has played one year of basketball. I guess I wonder why the Lucas project isn't as worthy, or more worthy than the Embiid project? I do have faith that coach Self could make Lucas, Peters, and Traylor into worthy rotation players. And Peters is likely the best .. I'm looking forward to seeing him this season. The choppy Europe footage seemed to support those that suggested he would exceed expectations, should have been ranked higher, and is a tough, scrappy player. But let's say Peters is that .. how long before Lucas and Traylor are of high value? If ever? Shepherd and Roberson .. or at least one .. would be immediate rotation candidates, with Shepherd bringing more of a true center look, and Roberson being perhaps more ready for high minutes.

I guess I'm looking to 2014 even more. If we don't get top bigs now for 2013, we're missing a year of development .. meaning freshmen in 2014. Or worse, Self fills the scholarships with an Embiid and/or a low or unranked player as he's done before. Not the preference. Quality wins games down low .. Morris twins, Robinson, Aldrich, Withey, Arthur, Kaun .. all top 50 guys. Add in Darnell Jackson at #54. For Self's Final Four teams, KY (a junior) was the only real exception who got significant minutes.

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phogphan2000 7 months, 2 weeks ago

I'm glad we're talking out all this worst case stuff so we can laugh about it later and say how pointless it was to speculate right? knock on wood

I'm kind of confused by your comment "I don't prefer a scholarship player that has played one year of basketball" but I assume the reason the Embiid project is deemed more worthy is people see him as having a very high ceiling even though he has a lot of work to do and muscle to gain. It sounds like you'd rather have a better shot at a top10 guy in '14 than bring Embiid on, but I'd disagree even though I'm hoping to get some guys higher on the list.

One last thing I'll say on this topic of talent/depth and KU FF runs. Even with the #2, #4 and #12 rivals classes headed into '06/'07 KU didn't make a FF and probably don't make it in '08 if Rush and Arthur had left for the NBA. I know UK has had some really special freshmen between Wall/Cousins/MKG/AD, but those guys are few and far between that can play at that level as freshmen. In general we need guys that are willing to stick around for 2+ years with the occasional freshman phenom a bonus.

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JayDogger 7 months, 2 weeks ago

Your nightmare is my nightmare. Interesting speculation, though. More interesting than the football game indeed.

I've noticed you keep pushing for Roberson. Seems like a lot of overlap with Ellis.

I think Selden and Shepherd are both the most important and the most likely. Getting them along with Frankamp & Greene would shut up the Bill Self-can't-recruit folks (for a year or so anyway).

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bennybob 7 months, 2 weeks ago

I would like to clarify, I've never said "Bill Self-can't-recruit". Just look at what he did at illinois and the early years at KU and its obvious the guy knows how to recruit.

My entire argument the last few years has been that he's not recruiting at the level he's proven hes capable of.

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HighEliteMajor 7 months, 2 weeks ago

Your argument is undeniable in the short term. You just have to look at his recruiting classes. I think it gets interpreted as "Self can't recruit" .. and that's not what you're saying. Underachieving might be the word. The 2013 class will be a nice bit of evidence one way or the other.

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HighEliteMajor 7 months, 2 weeks ago

JayDogger - Agreed .. Roberson is a much like Ellis. That's why I list our bigs as 4 and 4a. Self has done nicely with a true center (Aldrich/Withey), but just as nicely with two 4s (Morris twins and Arthur/Jackson). Roberson had said that Self was explaining to him that he would do the same things with him, that he did with Marcus Morris. Develop him the same way, as the same type of player. I bet he's doing that with Ellis .. post up .. step out for the 18 footer .. drive to the hoop. We'll battle the fact that he supposedly wants to stay near NJ, but just read this morning where he said that wasn't a big deal. But we're the farthest away of his legit target schools .. others are Syracuse, Kentucky, Rutgers, Villanova (and SMU). Jermaine Lawrence is supposedly big on Syracuse .. and with UK likely to get Aaron Gordon or Marcus Lee .. we might have a decent shot. We're kind of rooting for Syracuse to get both James Young and Jermaine Lawrence .. would make Selden and Roberson better possibilities.

Shepherd brings a true center look. Can't go wrong with any of the three.

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JayDogger 7 months, 2 weeks ago

Nice follow-up. Thanks.

I don't think it's wrong or crazy to criticize recruiting the last few years. We haven't had a great class since '09 (although this last class may prove otherwise). But we haven't exactly been slummin' it, either. If we hadn't whiffed on Tarc I don't think this would be much of an issue. I don't think the sky is falling--or has been in recent years--but if your nightmare scenario comes true...then the long knives will come out.

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jhox 7 months, 2 weeks ago

All valid concerns, High Elite. Let's just hope we don't strike out.

This type of scenario is precisely why we need to do a better job of identifying and keeping local talent interested. There is absolutely no good reason why we didn't get interested in Willie Cauley prior to his senior year, when we tried to get in on him as a "fall back" guy. I know people on here think he is soft, and all that, but he is an athletic specimen, and I'm convinced he'll be successful at UK. I also predict he'll be better than our primary target, Kaleb Tarczewski. This year we didn't seem to pursue Semi Ojeleye, a top 40 guy 15 or 20 miles from KU's campus. We may not have gotten him anyway, we we should have been working our rears off trying because we need to lock up local guys with that kind of talent early, regardless of position.

We seem to have this attitude that we can jump in on local guys and get them at the last minute, but when has that happend? Marcus Denmon is another guy who comes to mind. He wasn't top 50, but he is a guy who we showed interest in too late, and a guy who turned into an all conference player.

We've lost out on guys who undoubtedly are better than some of the other guys we've ended up giving scholarships to, all because we showed interest too late. I'm not suggesting we don't aim high on national recruits, I'm just saying if we have a top 50 guy in our own back yard, we need to show early interest. Or even non top 50 guys who clearly have high D1 talent. These guys feel slighted when everyone else in the country is contacting them, and KU doesn't until the very last minute. We also need to identify the next Alec Burk in the area...a guy who the recruiting services miss on. Anyone that good locally should never, ever slip under our radar. Kansas City has produced some great talent the past few years...unrated guys. We can't let a Marcus Denmon or Alec Burk slip under the radar when they're a half hour from our campus.

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HighEliteMajor 7 months, 2 weeks ago

How about Ishmail Wainwright .. from Raytown, Mo. #26 player and you hear nothing about him. We were recruiting him but we're not on his list now.

http://espn.go.com/college-sports/basketball/recruiting/player/_/id/101154/ishmail-wainright

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ralster 7 months, 2 weeks ago

I fully understand bennybob's frustration (although I have taken a more of a sit-back-&-wait approach). I see more "options" available to Self this season compared to last season. And just like Tyshawn started as a frosh out of necessity...I think Ellis starts out of necessity, and has the ranking + skills to contribute. I think White is Releford's sub at the 3, and White led the team in scoring in the Euro games...so that says something, at least...Tharpe looked improved, plus he will get major mpg, and that will teach him like only live action can. Adams may sub off the bench out of necessity. As usual, judge team after non-conf, then after conf play, then judge the post season: 3 phases as Self says. Regarding recruiting: that job is never done, and we fans can never realistically be aware of a fair chunk of what a blueblood coach is up to. What I'm saying is I dont know enough about what Self is doing in his behind-the-scenes recruiting biz to blast him about it. We can draw "inferences", as HEM and benny so ably do, but I just dont know for sure myself...

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kerbyd 7 months, 2 weeks ago

Well, except for maybe Steve Fisher.

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chriz 7 months, 2 weeks ago

Haha--I was actually thinking of that guy when I typed that. But I can't think of anyone else.

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kcprimetime 7 months, 2 weeks ago

Well said. Most of these "sky is falling" fans seem to forget there are only 5 guys on the court at one time and there is only one ball! I sure hope Ben leaves for NBA, means we had a great year. Save this paranioa until we see all these new guys perform together over a full season. And, Frankamp looks like a top flight scorer and point guard to the rest of the world, who will be ready when he gets here.

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HighEliteMajor 7 months, 2 weeks ago

TexasHawk44: Some folks don't see everything through crimson and blue colored glasses, and some folks actually have opinions. Some actually realize, as well, that while coach Self is the best coach in college basketball, he is not perfect. Questioning recruiting, or speculating, or discussing hits and misses in recruiting is not necessarily a personal attack on coach Self.

It is not heresy to have the discussion.

Coach Self is not perfect, right? Or is he?

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wissoxfan83 7 months, 2 weeks ago

You don't trust he and his parents judgement in picking a school that is in the denomination they belong to? Why is it a travesty for him to pick that school? He's making the choice. I'm not Mormon either in case you were wondering. As a Chicagoan, I think the travesty, to use your term, is that he is not staying home to play somewhere.

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yovoy 7 months, 2 weeks ago

NOW! I'm "somebody"...having a comment removed. BTW, where does one find this 'usage agreement'?

No, I don't trust their judgement at all. They've chosen a religion that is institutionally against the race they happen to be. One of the bedrock beliefs is that this family's skin color is a "curse". Look up 'Lamanite'. I also believe it to be completely reckless to send their child to serve as any type of ambassador of that school; especially with all the revisionism the Church has had to use (both athletically and politically) to advance their cause.

I wasn't wondering if you were a Mormon: they are "good" people. The Church might be viewed differently though. Besides, some of my best friends....Haha, nevermind. I truly have nothing against Mormons, nor their religion - except the hypocritical parts, and that charge could be leveled at any race or religion.

Even if it's for different reasons, we agree then that he shouldn't go to BYU, right?

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wissoxfan83 7 months, 2 weeks ago

Yeah, on the last line. I didn't see your comment worthy of being removed either, it was just something I didn't agree with, and still don't, but that's what makes this a great forum.

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phogphan2000 7 months, 2 weeks ago

Well technically Self came in and went straight to the Elite Eight where Aaron Miles got run over, dropped the ball and gets called for traveling somehow, otherwise he goes to the FF in his first year without much depth. Plus considering he had just outcoached Roy in the 2001 Sw16 game, confidence was pretty high after that first year. Then the team held the #1 RPI in the nation headed into the NCAAs, but after the TTech debacle had a poor finish in the eyes of the committee (even though I'd bet money no #1 overall in the RPI had ever been given a 3 seed or that it would ever happen to an east coast team) get screwed into a 3 seed and lose. Obviously you can say well I guess they didn't deserve a higher seed, but with Langford's injury who knows, get a 1 or 2 and a weaker team and he comes back in the 2nd game and that team might make a run. So even though Self lost a couple 1st rounders, it was pre-empted with building Illinois into a title contender, taking KU to the Elite Eight and a season where even after a 1st Rd NCAA exit they ended #3 in RPI and #11 in Sagarin ratings.

I'm not trying to compare the challenge Weis has to Self's situation, just saying it was still pretty good early under Self, just a bad seed and a bad game in '05 make it look rough.

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