Wednesday, November 7, 2012

Bill Self: Rotation starting to come clear

Kansas head coach Bill Self gets at point guard Naadir Tharpe during the second half on Monday, Nov. 5, 2012 at Allen Fieldhouse.

Kansas head coach Bill Self gets at point guard Naadir Tharpe during the second half on Monday, Nov. 5, 2012 at Allen Fieldhouse.


Slicing Kansas University’s men’s basketball rotation to a workable number might be easier than most expected this season.

“Two weeks ago, I’d have said I had no idea. The last couple weeks, there’s been a little bit of separation. I wish there wasn’t yet. It’s starting to break that way,” 10th-year KU coach Bill Self said.

Eight of his 13 scholarship players (Elijah Johnson, Jeff Withey, Travis Releford, Ben McLemore, Perry Ellis, Naadir Tharpe, Jamari Traylor and Justin Wesley) played 10 or more minutes, while freshmen Rio Adams, Andrew White III and Landen Lucas played just four, three and three minutes respectively in Monday’s 62-50 victory over Washburn.

“At first I thought we’d easily get to nine. Now, it’s, ‘Gosh, can we get to eight?’” Self said of the rotation. “It’s one of those things ... I hate to say this, but in big games, if a guy turns it over one time in one minute, that could be the difference in winning and losing. You don’t put guys out there in games that matter just to try to get them some experience. You do that if you know the game is going your way. I’d have a hard time leaving a guy in five minutes against Michigan State (Tuesday) who has turned it over three times.

“That stuff happens with young kids. They’ve got to know there are certain ways they can help the team the most, and that’s to make sure our best players look good. Sometimes young kids want to go out and prove to everybody they can really play. When they are not quite ready, sometimes that leads to poor play.”

Senior Kevin Young figures to join the rotation soon — possibly as early as Tuesday against the Spartans in Atlanta. Young, who broke a bone in his right hand on Oct. 25, will not play in Friday’s season-opener against SE Missouri State (7 p.m., Allen Fieldhouse). Self said Monday that Young, who has been shooting on his own, should return to practice Saturday and, if all goes well, possibly will play against the No. 14-ranked Spartans.

On Wednesday at the Topeka Jayhawk Club luncheon, Self said there’s a possibility freshmen big men Lucas and Zach Peters could be red-shirted. Peters, 6-foot-9 from Plano, Texas, has yet to practice this season because of a torn rotator cuff in his left (shooting) shoulder. He’s not expected back anytime soon. Lucas, 6-10 from Portland, could practice all season, but not play in games, if playing time appears scarce. Lucas can’t play in Friday’s opener or any other games if the decision is made to red-shirt or if the decision is still pending.

“He (Lucas) will be a good player down the road,” Self said. “He will be a guy that certainly can give us a low-post presence. Landen is a great kid. He will have a great career here.”

Of Peters, Self said: “Not being negative at all, but he’s so far behind, I don’t know even when he is able to come back. I can’t bank on him being ready in two weeks. We are going to go with the guys we’ve got. I think we are plenty good enough. We just have to play smarter and can execute better.”

Embiid cuts list: Joel Embiid, a 7-foot, 220-pound senior center from The Rock School in Gainesville, Fla., on Wednesday narrowed his list of prospective schools from five to three.

“Down to Florida, Kansas and Texas,” Embiid wrote in a text message to the Journal-World.

“Next week,” he responded, asked when he’d reveal his college choice.

Coaches from KU, Florida and Texas visited his high school on Wednesday, reported.

No. 31-ranked Tyler Roberson, a 6-8 small forward from Roselle (N.J.) Catholic School, has not yet set a date to announce his decision. He’s down to KU, Villanova and Syracuse.

KU vs. S.D. State: KU and San Diego State are working on a home-and-home series starting in Allen Fieldhouse next season, Aztec coach Steve Fisher told the San Diego Union-Tribune. KU would return the trip to Viejas Arena, the on-campus arena of the Aztecs, in 2015-16.

Fisher had some negative things to say about KU when Jayhawk senior Kevin Young decommitted from S.D. State two summers ago. “That’s history,” Fisher told the paper. “I’ve always had a friendship and a relationship with Bill Self. He’s a good person and an exceptional coach in a marquee, blue-blood program. That to me is no longer a topic of discussion.”


kerbyd 8 years, 5 months ago

Is this the same Steve Fisher that basically accused Self of stealing one of his players?

Ron Prichard 8 years, 5 months ago

Oh, come on...let bygones be bygones! Now that Self and KU can help raise the national exposure of SDSU basketball, Fisher certainly has.

Elliot Cohen 8 years, 5 months ago

This looks like a 9 man rotation with 5 bigs and 4 perimeter guys, which is different than the past. The 4 perimeter guys are Johnson, McLemore, Releford, and Tharpe off the bench. Ellis, Traylor, and Young all figure to share minutes at the 4 and Wesley is likely backing up Withey at the 5. I don't think Self trusts White or Adams yet to give them rotation minutes, though they may each get a few minutes here or there in spot duty.

Jonathan Allison 8 years, 5 months ago

I expect that Wesley will essentially be pushed out of the rotation after Kevin Young comes back. That is only if Traylor proves capable of guarding the low post though. We know that he's physical enough, but will he be effective against taller players?

Michael Bratisax 8 years, 5 months ago

Don't count White out to early. He's a big time scorer but needs to work on his defense. He's the type of kid who can give KU an instant scorer off the bench. If his D improves, he'll get the minutes.

Jonathan Andrews 8 years, 5 months ago

DANG, HCBS going HAM on a bench-warming freshman! Is he going to give the waterboy a purple nurple next?!?!

I actually question Bill on this one. I'm sure he put thought into his words before saying them, and I'll bet the sly fox did this to challenge his whole team, by chastising one. But without actually saying the words Anrio Adams, he made it clear that 'Rio has been an abject disappointment to him, which I feel is overhasty at this stage of the season. Leave the kid gloves at home; I'm just surprised that the ONLY guy that's consistently playing like his hair is on fire is the one that draws Self's ire. "Steady as she goes", sir.

Marcia Parsons 8 years, 5 months ago

Against Washburn, Rio turned the ball over every time he touched it. I suspect that's what Self was thinking about.

tashe2 8 years, 5 months ago

Don't question HCBS. The guy knows exactly what he is doing at all times. He is the best basketball coach in the country and doesn't give a damn what anybody thinks about his coaching style. Smooth pimp!

Sandeep Kalburgie 8 years, 5 months ago

Embiid and Roberson are close to announcing their college choice! Keeping my fingers crossed!

Robert Brock 8 years, 5 months ago

Im keeping my fingers crossed for Julius Randle and Dakari Johnson.

Alohahawk 8 years, 5 months ago

Embiid for long term, plus one of: Randle, Gordon, Johnson, Lawrence or Roberson would be fantastic! However, if that happened, someone would have to leave to open up a schollie, whether McLemore left early to the NBA, or ?

I doubt KU could sign any two of the 'plus ones' above. They all pretty much play power forward, while Johnson is more of a combo Center/PF. No matter what, Embiid would be like icing on whatever cake Self ends up baking.

There's also the highly improbable: Wiggins is considered the best, but KU has his position (SF) covered with Greene and Selden having verbaled. I'm sure Self would start him at any position, if he chose KU.

In IMHO, KU has a good chance to sign at least one of the above named. So keep those fingers crossed, Brock.

David Leathers 8 years, 5 months ago

I'm 98% sure that Embiid will be a Jayhawk. Here's why:

If you do a Google News search for him the ONLY publication that is announcing him cutting his list is the LJW. Don't you think that if he is planning on becoming a Longhorn, a Gator or even trying to throw others off that he would send out that same message to more than one media outlet?

I may be looking too far into this, but I have a gut feeling.

On a different note, sign me up for front row seats in the Viejas! I've been praying for a Jayhawk return to the west coast.

melrank 8 years, 5 months ago

For whatever it's worth . . . that news is all over Twitter and most recruiting sites. Perhaps the LJW was the only local paper to contact him?

All that being said, I'm inclined to think we have a good shot but I'm not betting any money on it. From what I've read about him, he seems like a good kid and could potentially fill a big need in the future. Hope he chooses KU.

FarSideHawk 8 years, 5 months ago

That quote is what he tweeted yesterday also. Not sure that he exclusively texted LJW only, but if true that could be a positive sign.

We do need someone to come in and help immediately for the 2013-2014 season. It could be JoJo if he continues to develop at this rate. Otherwise Randle and/or Dakari would be my first choice.

Jonathan Allison 8 years, 5 months ago

Florida and Texas are still in the middle of football season. Basketball doesn't even exist to those fan bases till December or January.

GlobalJayhawk 8 years, 5 months ago

CaliHawk- I hope you're right. It would be a fantastic if we get him on board. With that being said, I don't know how you can be 98% sure based upon a Google search that lead to the LJ World being the only publication reporting this news which puts us well ahead the rest of the schools.

If Embiid would have said," I want to attend the school with the greatest basketball tradition"......then I would definitely agree with your assumption.

Don't give the LJ World too much credit. This is the same publication that lets Keegan write articles and opinion columns (which by far are the worst).

Rock Chalk!

nostradavid 8 years, 5 months ago

Let's hope JoJo doesn't mind cold weather. His other remaining choices are in lower latitudes.

Michael Sillman 8 years, 5 months ago

If Lucas and Peters both redshirt this year, that seems to leave us short of big men to relieve Withey. To sub Ellis, Traylor, Wesley, or Young in at the 5 spot makes the teaam pretty darn small but I guess Self has no choice. Peters must have something major going on in that shoulder and it appears that Self feels Lucas needs a whole year of seasoning to be ready.

Traylor may be the guy to rotate in at center since he appears to be a warrior underneath the rim but he'll be giving away significant height.

Curtis Stutz 8 years, 5 months ago

Just think of how thin we were for big men backups last season with a few minutes for Wesley and a 190lb first year transfer backing them up. It helped that TRob was big enough to play center, but still pretty thin. I would have liked Peters to be a regular in the rotation, but stuff happens. I think Traylor is strong enough to hold his ground against most of the big men in cbb this year. This is part of the reason I think we'll need Young at the 3 part of the year, add a little height/rebounding to the floor when Withey is out.

Michael Johnson 8 years, 5 months ago

Lucas really looked good in first exhibition game. I was hoping he'd be a big part of this team.

jaybate 8 years, 5 months ago

"Bittersweet Thought for Today"

What if Self were positioning to sign Wiggins, Embiid and one more big by discouraging AW3 and Anrio into transfers and going with Naadir and Evan as backcourt backups this year, were AW3, and/or Anrio to transfer suddenly, instead of end of season?

After all, Self would still have Brannen Greene and Frankamp coming in to replace them, even if Self were to crap out and sign no one else.

bradynsdad 8 years, 5 months ago

I've always enjoyed your post jay but recently you have lost it a little bit. I was very discouraged by your talk of AW3. Now saying Self might be encouraging AW3 and rio to transfer? That is crazy. Rio may not have been great the last game but by that note EJ, Withey, Travis, and pretty much everyone in that game should transfer. Rio has a defensive game that self loves, that is very evident by watching him play. AW3 is an off the charts shooter, I would say just as good as frankcamp if not better. Very negative to want these guys out that fast.

REHawk 8 years, 5 months ago

bradynsdad, the terrific (for me) jaybate posts lie in the fact that he is one of the few contibutors who thinks "out of the box." Just when I grow certain that my mental formulations re the Jayhawks are on an even keel, jb tosses something into the waters to divert my ship. And, often, he is right on. I flinched more than somewhat at the reading of his response to the AW3 article, but I knew that he was hitting the nail on the head in regard to Andrew's need to focus primarily on defense if he wished ever to showcase his subsequent shooting prowess. The Washburn game will haunt Andrew. Actually, his play in both exhibition contests, even though his pair of treys looked great in the former. He yet might be a player who can join the mix as a desperation shooter in closing minutes of a close losing contest; but without the consistent focus on defense he appears to be dead in the water for many game minutes this season. Rio might represent a different situation altogether. Self yanked him, necessarily, for those 3 quick turnovers; but perhaps will get his attention regarding protecting the ball. I'm betting that we see more of Rio than we do Andrew before conference play. His defense in that Emporia contest was astounding for a freshman who came to Lawrence with the reputation of a scoring champ. He will earn minutes if Monday night's quick yank makes a lasting impression on him. Andrew might yet, too; but his thought process is in for a major diversion.

FarSideHawk 8 years, 5 months ago

I have to agree with bradynsdad to one aspect, Jaybate. You seem different lately. I used to look forward to your posts, especially after bad losses or other down times, as you would always bring out the positives and provide some deeper insight into why things would be better soon.
Lately, you seem to have become a tad negative. Hope the serial aliases are not getting to you.

jaybate 8 years, 5 months ago


Basketball post to attack ratio post still falling. :-)

Forum sliding

consensus cracking

topic dilution

information collection

anger trolling

gaining full control

Welcome back from Camp Online Destabilization. :-)

jaybate 8 years, 5 months ago


No, whatever gave you that idea? :-)

I'm just having a great today.

Isn't it a great day?

The start of the season is at hand.

Weather is swell.

Coach Self, as phogphan has caused me to reconsider, may be laying down smoke screens about who is, and who is not, in our rotation as the showdown in Atlanta approaches.

Oh, and this most recent post of yours lowers your basketball post to attack post ratio AGAIN!

And that delights me no end. :-)

jaybate 8 years, 5 months ago


Thanks for the kind thoughts and concern, but I'm enjoying posting as much as ever, and the serial aliases keep getting culled out faster than I can keep track of, plus the destabilizers like illbastardito are always good for a work out, whenever I feel like one.

What I suspect you are perceiving is that I am writing about problems more often with this team than I have in past seasons.

I suspect that is because this team has more problems. :-)

Coaches always talk about teams in terms of whether they have the pieces needed and whether they are sufficiently developed in order to make a run for the conference title and a run to go deep in the NCAA.

This team has the right pieces, but they are not at the right stages of development yet and appear likely not to be until next season.

Unlike Tyshawn, EJ is starting his first season as full time PG for the team. And unlike Tyshawn who entered last season without any health question marks, EJ is coming off a knee injury and scoping that took over three months even to get back to playing a little. People need to understand that Tyshawn coming back from a scope in a week meant he was a stud and that his injury was relatively unsevere. They need to understand that EJ apparently had a much more severe knee injury, plus he may have a nagging shoulder limitation from an injury two seasons ago. EJ has a lot to overcome. I believe he can. But it is likely going to take time for him to get it together.

Ben Mac is so good that if he were to have a year of game experience already, I would say our team ought to be favored to win conference and to be one of 5-10 teams that could win it all this year. But he's just getting started. He will probably be like BRush in that he will score and dazzle people his first season, but he will likely not accumulate the experience necessary, even by the end of the season to make a deep run in the Madness. Like Rush, he could push this team to another conference title, but only if the other pieces exist and are far enough along.

Travis? Travis is a gold standard as a glue 3. And he is so athletic that even though no one will honor his trey, against teams that lack a dominant inside presence, he will go off a few times over the season. But sadly to say, so far this season, his trey mechanics look as bad this season as last. That's okay though, with Ben Mac doing at the 2, what Rush did at the 3. With a high functioning EJ, and Ben Mac, Travis is the right piece far enough along. But that's only one out of three positions so far.

jaybate 8 years, 5 months ago

Next, the 4 position does not have a player ready to become Superman. But it has one guy, Perry Ellis, who by next year, could probably fill that role. This year, Perry can be plenty good enough for a team that had the 1 and 2 wired with guys far enough along to dominate. But that's not what we have yet. And Perry is not far enough along. He will be very good and he will make our mouths water for next season, but he hasn't been to the wars yet. He isn't seasoned. And he does not appear so far to be the kind of overwhelmingly dominant force that the UK's center was as a freshman. So this is three positions where this team is not far enough along.

But Perry will be helped considerably at the 4 by Kevin Young, who will force most teams to keep their best bigs on the floor longer than they like. This is the edge this team can have at the 4. Perhaps no team in the country will have a 1-2 punch at the 4 as good as ours. This counts for a lot. Whether it counts for enough depends on how many draft choice 4s ready for the NBA after this season there actually are across this great land. Match-ups, as Self says, are everything. And a committee of Perry and KY is a very, very tough 40 minute match up problem for opposing teams. So: let's say that despite not being quite as good as Thomas for 20-30 minutes, Perry and KY could together be as good for 40. That means we've got 2 of the first five positions wired.

Which brings us to Jeff in the post. Jeff is going to be good enough. I suspect his scoring is going to surprise a whole bunch of people. He is going to have a bunch of 18 point nights; that's what I thing. And once the green wood learns how to play with a player with his practically unprecedented swatting ability, he is going once again to make our defense very formidable. Rebounding will tell the story on him, however. He has to become a 10 rebound a night guy and he has to have a half dozen 15-18 rebound games to even partly make up for the loss of Thomas' rebounding. I suspect he can do this barring injury. It depends significantly on how much Self asks him to rebound vs. swat. It is tough to do both. What would be ideal is for the committee of Perry and KY to be able to play so hard and go to the glass so hard, and to have Ben Mac do the same that Self can release Jeff to swat as happened last year with TRob grabbing the caroms. But this issue is not clear to me yet. But let's say that one way, or another, KU has the 5 covered. And with Jamari and Justin, it seems we have fouling covered, even if we can't be brawny.

jaybate 8 years, 5 months ago

So that's 3 of 5 positions far enough along.

Compare that to last year where we had 4 of 5 positions iced--Jeff being the huge question mark going in as to whether he was far enough along to enable a title contender.

But this year's team is better off in depth at the 4 and 5 than last year's team. So that's another brownie point for this team.

But here is where I get the willies about this team: back court depth.

First, yes, Naadir looks more comfortable than last year, but, still, I will be very nervous about Naadir's defense for ten minutes each game until I see him not have blow bys against majors. But at least this is a possible significant improvement over last season's team.

But what about the wing back up. Everyone was so tickled to see Conner Teahan leave and be replaced by AW3 and Anrio Adams, because AW3 seemed an even better trifectate, and Anrio seemed a vastly better defender and penetrator. And based on eye tests alone, this team should be hugely better with AW3 and Anrio, than with Conner.

But here is the thing: Conner did not have to be limited to 3 minutes in the exhibition games last season because he sucked so badly.

And Conner wasn't a freshman still trying to figure out how to get to the weight room.

And Conner had banged with draft choices in practice for four years before last season. And Conner, though he appeared significantly less talented that AW3 in terms of the eye test, was Mr. Basketball of Missouri in high school and AW3 was not Mr. Basketball of his state. Conner Teahan already knew how fast and how rough D1 was. Conner Teahan had taken hits in spring football before the season started and so though the big bad XTRem Muscle ballers could and did rough him up again and again, Conner was like a Rocky who just kept taking the punches and staying close. And Conner actually average 10-20 mpg on a team that fought its way through one of the most physically savaging seasons I can recall, in part because he knew exactly what to give Self, and Self knew exactly what little he could ask of Conner. Unless KY is asked to swing 3-4, which I dearly hope Self does, there is no one presently capable of doing what Conner did last season, in terms of floor game on both ends. So: ironically enough, Mr. Disrepected Talent Conner Teahan turns out to be almost as difficult to replace as Tyshawn and TRob, on this particular team, at this particular stage of who is on hand to replace him.

jaybate 8 years, 5 months ago

It seemed like AW3 would just step in and be about an order of magnitude better than Teahan in the role. But now Coach Self doubts that he can even be in the rotation. Maybe Coach Self is needling AW3. But I come back to the exhibition games against D2 teams. Conner did not have to be limited to 3 minutes. :-)

Now, about Rio Adams. Surely maybe the best basketball player in the state of Oregon, a guy who put up 40-50 points in a game in high school, can step in and be waaaaaay better than Conner Teahan. Surely!

But wait! Conner Teahan used to put huuuuuge scoring numbers up in highschool and Conner Teahan was Mr. Basketball of Missouri. And when Conner Teahan walked on at KU as a freshman, you know what? He couldn't stay on the floor against D2 teams any better than Anrio Adams could. Hmmmmm. What gives here?

Its called experience and emotional development. The neural nets of the brain don't grow fully together till you are 23. To start as a freshman, even to be first back up as a freshman, you have to have soooooooo much more talent and so much mental and emotional maturity than is average for that age, that you are something of a freak. BRush could do it. EJ could not. Tyshawn could do it if his role were narrowly scoped. Marcus could do it. Kieff and Thomas couldn't even have dreamed of doing it as freshman. Does anyone recall how awful Kieff looked as a freshman. And Thomas Robinson? OMG!!!!!

But back to this year's team.

Self needs a flipping miracle: he needs a back up wing almost as much as some say he needs hair plugs. And his two choices--AW3 and Anrio Adams--could not stay on the floor more than 3 minutes against...drum roll please...the Washburn University Ichabods!

So: these are the reasons I think this team has more problems on the one hand, and, in a best of all possible worlds scenario,m more potential on the other.

This team could win it all, if some amazing development took place at the 1, 2, and backup wing, for one simple reason: there is no team in D1 like UK last year.

This year's KU team could, in fact, not be as good as last year's KU team, and win a ring.

Einstein wasn't kidding about relativity. :-)

DanR 8 years, 5 months ago

Anrio Adams might be the best player in the state of Oregon, but he's from Seattle, Washington.

jaybate 8 years, 5 months ago

Oh, that's right. Seattle. Thanks. I knew it was somewhere up there in the rain.

Michael Bratisax 8 years, 5 months ago

No chance HCBS would encourage White into transferring. AW3 is the 2nd best recruit in this years class and has far more potential than you seem to give him Jaybate.

What gives?

jaybate 8 years, 5 months ago

No evidence of defense.

No evidence of floor game.

A great gun but just a gun at this point.

Plus Greene and Frankamp coming in that could do what he does as well.

Plus an increasingly high likelihood of landing, say, two bigs more highly ranked than AW3, or Anrio, plus Wiggins, who could do more than he does.

Plus Self has cut his minutes to 3 against Washburn and just said he and Rio are not part of the rotation.

That about sums it up. :-)

Frankly, until Wiggins and this most recent big reclassified, and KU has hung in with so many other desirable bigs, I thought AW3 was going to be a fabulous player for KU, if not this year than certainly for the next two. He just looks like a basketball player. And what a stroke!!!

But I suspect Self has learned the hard way about recruiting. Since you think you're going to get a guy like C Tarc and don't. Then you've got to take the top guys when you they are willing.

The players leave KU, when its best for them, both the good ones going pro, and the lesser ones bailing on him for more PT, not just the few he runs, because they just aren't up to the minimum talent level he needs.

If Self has a chance to better the program by replacing Merv, he does so.

If Self has a chance to better the program by replacing AW3 and/or Anrio, I suspect he will not hesitate.

Its the big business of amateurism.

AsadZ 8 years, 5 months ago

You don’t put guys out there in games that matter just to try to get them some experience. You do that if you know the game is going your way.

This has been a much topic of debate on this forum over the last couple of years and I am sure there will be some nice exchanges today.

FarSideHawk 8 years, 5 months ago

This is what HEM points out repeatedly. And I must say, although I like to win every game too, but sometimes losing a battle to be in a better position to win the war would be the smarter thing to do.

Anyone know of examples, where other big name coaches have done things differently from Coach Self in this regard?

DanR 8 years, 5 months ago

Rick Barnes and Scott Drew off the top of my head. Oh, wait, you said big name coaches...

hotrodm 8 years, 5 months ago

I was really looking forward to watching Zach Peters play this year, so sorry for him to have a shoulder injury. Shoulder injuries take a long time to heal and re-hab, so no sense in rushing him to the court, KU will need him next year and beyond. Good luck Zach with your healing and re-hab.

Andy Godwin 8 years, 5 months ago

Losing Peters for the year is a shame. This article is the first time a tear was mentioned. I held hope he would be back until this report. Peters was the best center by far in Europe and brought the toughness and energy Withey seems to lack for some unknown reason this late into his career. I sure hope that Taylor can step up and push Withey for time. Maybe having the preseason all American sit will get him fired up to play hard from the beginning to the end of the game.

clevelandjayhawker 8 years, 5 months ago

I get the feeling we will be playing an entirely different offense this year. Yes I expect some high low action with Perry and Withey, and a lot of swing action with the 1,2 and 3 spots. But if Jeff gets in foul trouble or is on a cold streak I can see us playing "small" with 2 4s. Also right now I think having Tharpe and EJ on the court at the same time is advantageous to getting the most out of EJ; I'm not sure if it is him recovering from surgery, moving fromt he 2 to the 1, or just trying to let the freshmen play for the exhibition games (we will find out Friday or Tuesday).

I think with the outside shooters we have on this team we can play with a smaller lineup, the big question mark will be rebounds, we need to get more of the "50/50" balls, especially if our lineup is 6'8 or under with Withey on the bench.

jaybate 8 years, 5 months ago


Crazy? Hardly.

It remains an honest question prompted by:

A) Self not typically shutting young players out of the rotation until the cupcake games are over;

B) Self only giving Aw3 3 minutes in an exhibition game after saying for awhile AW3 was the first sub off the bench;

C) AW2 apparently saber rattling after the first exhibition of only 10 minutes in the first exhibition; and

D) the reclassifying of two highly ranked recruits plus the continued availability of others making it highly probable Self could land 2-3 highly ranked players that he would need more next year than AW3 and Anrio.

I framed it as a question, not a prediction purposely.

I'm not sure about this, but it hardly seems out of the question given A through D.

FarSideHawk 8 years, 5 months ago

I didn't really see any Saber rattling from AW2 in that article. I remember your post in that article too, but I thought neither the father nor the grandfather said anything out of the line in that article...except maybe the 45 schools comment?

jaybate 8 years, 5 months ago


So you did see it, too.


I was beginning to think I was imagining it.

After AW3 got only 15 minutes (phogphan inphorms me) in a D2 exhibition game, AW2 was talking about how 45 schools wanted his kid.

I don't really know how to take that other than saber rattling, but I guess some other think it means nothing.

Let's you and I agree to agree: the 45 schools comment sounds "maybe" like saber rattling. :-)

Curtis Stutz 8 years, 5 months ago

You have to take that AW3 first of the bench comment with a little grain of salt. I'm not even sure he was, but when Self made that comment we weren't aware that Tharpe was starting for EJ. It still seemed like EJ was the first of the smalls to sub off the bench didn't it? Then as that game went on 'Rio showed his defensive prowess and AW3 turned it over repeatedly. Bottom line point I'm making though is AW3 wasn't up above Tharpe on the depth chart which is what Self's comment originally suggested. If you've only got 4 smalls in your rotation, AW3 and 'Rio are left out of it and right now there's only 4. Also the box score says AW3 played 15 mins and had 5 TO's in that first exhibition game. He did shoot it well and rebound it well in that one.

jaybate 8 years, 5 months ago


I am okay with you taking what Self says with a grain of salt, but I tend to believe Self, when he says things outside of injuries, and recruiting, where truth and reality are often, shall we say, not fully synched. :-)

Self is pretty candid and reliable about what he says about where players stand and how they perform, IMHO.

If he says guys were soft, they were probably soft. If he says they played "like little babies," I notice the substance of the substance of what he was saying colorfully in their performance. When he says Tyshawn would have touched paint 9 times in 10 minutes, I believe him. When he says he needs EJ to do the same, I believe him.

So, when after a European tour, and then preseason practices, and two exhibition games, Self switches from saying AW3 is my first guy off the bench, to AW3 is not a rotation guy, I have to take him at his word.

AW3 did not play like a rotation guy. He only shot like a rotation guy and he only did that against Emporia State. What he did do in both games is become the Pillsbury dough boy of pop tarts on a turnovers per minute played basis. But I am not even sure it was the pop tarts themselves that irked Self so much.

What Self appears to absolutely not tolerate is telling a player to do this, and not that, and then have the player do that and not do this.

And I don't blame Self either.

I mean, what good is a player that can't follow a simple instruction?

"AW3, Anrio, defend, protect, don't shoot."

Its not like he is asking them to do anything tough, like go win a game for him.

He's just saying, "Let the ball get to one of our mature players and let him score. If you do that okay, then I will like you and give you more PT. And if you do that okay, then when the score is not close, I will ask you to go do something simple on offense, like shoot an open jump shot."

Curtis Stutz 8 years, 5 months ago

Poorly worded perhaps, grain of salt meaning it was only an accurate statement based on the precondition that EJ was in the doghouse, thereby moving AW3 up the depth chart. He wasn't actually "Self's first guy off the bench" he was defacto first off the bench for smalls between him, 'Rio and the walkons. Tharpe wasn't included in that comment because he started that game. Self certainly wasn't going to say "EJ is my first off the bench" 'cause he was disciplining him. So I'm saying Self's comment was misleading because when I read that article I thought, oh wow, AW3 jumped Tharpe in the rotation, but I didn't know Tharpe was a starter for the purpose of that comment. Also Kevin Young is injured, further boosting AW3 up the depth chart. Had he been available and not starting Self would have said he was the first guy off the bench.

jaybate 8 years, 5 months ago

Now, here is where I might back off my POV a bit and sidle closer to yours.

I could see a scenario, wherein Bill Self wanted to beat Ratso Izzo so badly that he started laying smoke screens about his own team's problems. I could see Self signalling that AW3 and Anrio suck so bad that they are no longer in the rotation, so that he could spring them on Ratso.

Self is that cunning. He sand bagged his way to the national finals last year. He wouldn't hesitate to smoke screen about players, if he thought it would get him a W against Ratso.

But the reason I have declined that POV so far, is that I just don't believe that Self would ask AW3 to make 5 TOs in 15 minutes, and then do what he wasn't supposed to do against Washburn. Likewise, I can't believe Self would ask Anrio to bake three Pillsburys in three minutes.

But I'll tell you what. Self is one cunning sun of a gun, and its not completely out of the realm of possibility that he would not try something like that.

Self loves playing Ratso.

Ratso is who really taught Self what Bad Ball is all about.

Ratso is a tough nut from the UP. Ratso was the assistant for the Magic Johnson team of Jud's. Ratso has rings. Ratso is baaaaad.

Beating Ratso means a lot more than beating Scott Drew. Self is supposed to beat Scott. Scott is a geek.:-)

Beating Ratso is beating the dirtiest, most ruthless coach in basketball that still does it the right way.

Beating Ratso is the ultimate test of Self's philosophy of playing it anyway they want and beating them at their own game.

Self played football.

He loves bang ball.

Beating Ratso is on the same level of brutal joy as beating Huggo-Muggo, or Frank Martin, when Frankie had some good players.

Self loves bang ball.

As Self said, if this team goes into Atlanta playing like little babies, they are going to get a knot put on their head!!!! :-)

Okay, phogphan, you've got me here. I can argue this either way. I believe Self is telling the truth and AW3 and Anrio are lost causes for this year (the explanation consistent with brain development and neuro science).

Or I believe Self is blowing the biggest smoke screen in his career to try to give his bunch of skinny minnies a fighting chance against Ratsos mug ballers.

Now, are you happy? :-)

FarSideHawk 8 years, 5 months ago

If Zach is out for the year on medical red-shirt, I don't see why Coach Self would want to red-shirt Lucas this year.
It would make sense for him to red-shirt maybe next year if we pick up a couple top post players. I would rather keep Lucas around and let him try to beat out Wesley for the spot. We may need him anyway in some games due to injury or foul troubles.

Ron Prichard 8 years, 5 months ago

I agree with you. Even if Lucas is more of a project, I can't see him redshirting if Peters is out the entire year. I know that's all just speculation at this point, but it is sounding more and more like Peters will redshirt due to the shoulder injury.

hucking_fawks_rock 8 years, 5 months ago

Can we just tell Jeff that it's the NCAA tournament to let him get mad? I want to see the angry Withey face! ANGRY WITHEY!!

KEITHMILES05 8 years, 5 months ago

Jaybate: AW3 is not transferring and freshman ALWAYS have less minutes unless you are a very highly rated player. Your thinking is NUTS if Evan Manning will be backing up Tharpe! LMAO.

Peters "injury" is...........well, not as you think.

Lucas is the best defensively next to Withey. He will need time to adjust but has done nicely the first two games.

The post presence offensively is the worst it has ever been under Self. Ellis and Young will have to really step it up. It's nothing like we've ever seen.

Ron Prichard 8 years, 5 months ago

It sounds like you have some insight on Peters "injury," or at least a theory. Care to elaborate? It's not nice to only bring one piece of candy and not share with the class.

Jack Wilson 8 years, 5 months ago

The timing is just too good here .. "You don’t put guys out there in games that matter just to try to get them some experience." See my undeniable truths from yesterday. But we already knew this about coach Self. He's just said it now. There are quotes. The other undeniable truth is that he plays to win every game. That is, he won't risk underperformance for the sake of gaining folks experience .. meaning, when he says "games that matter" .. every game matters. Nice quotes today.

I would like to think that Adams and White are simply being broken down to be built back up. Adams' three turnovers against Washburn were killers for him. It's like a steamshovel digging a big hole in one swoop, and then being given a hand shovel to fill it back in. Filling it back in will take time because opportunities may be scarce. That's because Adams would be on the floor as a primary or secondary ball handler.

But I don't see that with White. White could see the floor directly to spell Releford, playing a more true three spot, with no real ball handling responsibilities other than an outlet when pressed or pressured (see Rush).

Those opportunities may come as early as Friday. But if not, they could be buried for a while. I'm optimistic on White though.

Right now, I do expect a 9 man rotation that includes White, with 7 guys getting the major minutes early. 5 perimeter players (EJ, McLemore, Tharpe, Releford and White), and 4 post players (Withey, Ellis, Young, Traylor). White and Traylor would get the limited minutes, with White's increasing. We'll see. It's a long season. But please, no Justin Wesley -- assuming Traylor is better.

And for all of those that mock recruiting "stars" and rankings, you see what is happening here don't you? It isn't a coincidence. Ellis and McLemore. Better players. Higher ranked. White. A bit lower at #51 as I recall. He'll get there. Then Adams around 90. Not much different than Tharpe was last season. Traylor #141. Edge of the rotation after a year of practice. But limited. Lucas (unranked) just not ready. Not perfect. Not the gospel. But a strong indicator and the best evidence we have. If Peters would have been healthy, he might have been the exception. Sure looked like it in Europe.

As an adside, I don't like the use of old quotes to make a point. The quote from Self about Peters came from the Nov. 6 article, not at the Topeka Jayhawk Club Luncheon yesterday as it implies.

REHawk 8 years, 5 months ago

HEM, from what I have read, there were extenuating circumstances which affected Rio's ranking...just as there were, thought differently, affecting Zach's. I remain very impressed with Rio's quick feet and focus on defense in the Emporia contest. He is a high school scoring champ whose mindset is on the right path regarding freshman minutes in the Bill Self system. Of course, his ball control has to remain focused alongside his defensive efforts; but those two things are huge for a freshman guard, esp. one whose h.s. credentials involve topnotch scoring. The 3 quick turnovers cost him dearly, and, hopefully, will glean lasting attention to such detail. Our entire squad suffered from a big turnover night, thanks to the solid effort of a well coached Bob Chipman machine. I will be very disappointed if Rio is relegated to a 37 minute bench for November/December contests. If that turns out to be the case, then his defense vs. Emporia was an anomaly.

Jack Wilson 8 years, 5 months ago

There were circumstances that MAY have affected Rio's ranking .. "may" is the correct word. But that's said about a lot of guys

But he is clearly one of those guys that you can see "talent" when he is on the floor. He just needs time to develop. Time in practice and learning. A guy that if he sticks it out, may play this season or next a bit, be a rotation as a junior or maybe even start. If he sticks it out. The defense is the wildcard. If it's as good as it appeared vs. Emporia, his trajectory may be higher. But he has to be able to protect/handle the ball to get on the floor, and compete with the incoming perimeter players.

HawkKlaw 8 years, 5 months ago

HEM, one thing you need to realize about those who occasionally disagree with you on the rivals rankings: Most would agree with everything you just said about stars and rankings. I don't recall seeing anyone make the argument that rivals rankings are completely inaccurate and should never be considered. Most say what you said; that they're not perfect and not the gospel. It's okay to be more excited when we get higher-ranked players and less enthusiastic when we get lower-ranked players. That's natural. Most only take issue with the rankings when those of us here on the message board get really down on the lower-ranked players without having seen them play. Like Rio Adams and Zach Peters, for instance. If Zach is as good as Self says he is, he should probably be higher ranked than #137 (3 stars). From what Self said, he was as good or better than Perry Ellis during the European games. And Rio (#98) was ranked lower than Naadir (#92) was coming in. Yet, from what I've seen, Rio is far more advanced than Naadir was as a freshman on defense, he's more developed as a scorer, and if he had played AAU ball he probably would have been ranked higher than #98. These are all very valid reasons to say that the rivals rankings are inaccurate at least some of the time. No ranking system is perfect, certainly. But the opposition to your "rivals rankings" argument has always been that we should ultimately wait until we see the recruit play in Self's system before we judge him too harshly. I think it's more of a "back off the poor kid" sentiment than a "rivals rankings can never be trusted" statement.

I agree with everything else you said as far as the perimeter and post-players that will be in the rotation. I think White/Adams will get sparse minutes (think Naadir last season) and we are in trouble if Justin Wesley gets a lot of minutes in the post. Traylor is better from a physical aspect, he just needs more experience. Ellis, Withey and Young will be the major post rotation guys and Traylor/Wesley will get the sparse minutes.

Jack Wilson 8 years, 5 months ago

HawkKlaw: I might disagree with you there. While I would agree that most tend to be ok with my position on the rankings (and it's not just me .. I just chatter about it a lot), there is a vocal contingent here that thinks the rankings are useless, done by folks that don't know anything, etc.

Back during the Doyle discussions when he committed was an example; another was when Lucas committed; and when Traylor committed; and when Adams committed; and when Braeden Anderson committed. It was the constant "coach Self knows best", or "coach Self must see something in this kid", or "coach Self wouldn't bring him in if he couldn't play", or "he's Dwayne Wade because his coach said so", or "he must be good because he was all city in Chicago", or "Rivals isn't smarter than coach Self", or "this guy must be a diamond in the rough", or "coach Self must love this guy", or "who are you to question coach Self" ..... I could go on and on.

You stated: "But the opposition to your "rivals rankings" argument has always been that we should ultimately wait until we see the recruit play in Self's system before we judge him too harshly."

Respectfully, the opposition to the Rivals (and other) rankings has notreally been what you've stated. Your statement is the reasonable opposition (my humble opinion on reasonableness). And the quote I selected is perhaps your view. But there is a group that doesn't share that view. And that group becomes very vocal when we get one of these underwhelming commitments. You would seriously think that we discovered the cure for cancer.

Now, I was heartened by the response to Frank Mason. Perhaps the entire Milton Doyle adventure muted a bit of the prior explosions. Or maybe it was coach Self's proclamation last summer that he wanted a "point guard", the misses, and that it was extremely well documented that Mason was choice #6 or #7 (at best). I don't know.

But hey, my view on the rankings is just my view. Like the rankings, I don't see my view on the rankings as the gospel -- I just haven't seen anything to disprove it yet.

HawkKlaw 8 years, 5 months ago

Okay, you're right there. That quote is my humble opposition to simply relying on the rankings to evaluate incoming recruits.

I think those other quotes you posted are from a very vocal minority that probably feel you're being unfair to the lower-ranked recruits. We all want to see KU succeed. We all want Bill Self to get the best players he can. I think those quotes you posted above are a few peoples' knee-jerk reactions to seeing negativity about a new KU guy. One of our own. It's natural for KU fanatics to rally around and defend anybody that plays for/commits to KU (until they are given reason not to). They're blinded by their allegiance to KU and Bill Self (I know I sometimes am), but in all fairness, that's what makes them fanatics. That's my guess anyway.

TexasHawk44 8 years, 5 months ago

Sounds like the same moronic JB to me. Maybe just a little more Moonshine poured over his Aldi's cornflakes in the morning as the black helicopters hover about his old trailer park homestead outside of Tongie...

REHawk 8 years, 5 months ago

I'm not yet prepared to bail on Jeff Withey. Granted, he played a rotten first half of offense Monday evening; but then almost logged a triple double by game's end. His play is mercurial, definitely, but without him we must fall back on a very different gameplan from the type that Self seems best to employ. Besides which, when he is on the bench we get an early chance to view the work of Perry, Jamari, Justin (soon, Kevin). Bill Self has to be intrigued, studying tape of Perry's work when Jeff is taking a rest. That might become a regular change-up worth pitching at opponents. That said, I am a bit disappointed at Jeff's offense. Had figured him to be a 13-14 pt. scorer this season, a player who gets to the freethrow line more often than last year. Might yet happen, but, at this stage, does not look likely. His inclinations are toward defense. Oddly, the entire starting lineup is so focused on defense that scoring and ball protection appear to suffer. Those are correctable elements which should gradually improve as the new engine logs mileage. The 3 returning starters have really bought in to Bill Self defense! Ben and Perry will certainly be handed the opportunity for some huge scoring nights.

clevelandjayhawker 8 years, 5 months ago

Disappointed is a good way to describe the Withey offense or lack thereof so far. But I think its too early to get worried, this time next week we will know a lot more about how we look early. I really think once EJ or Travis start to try and take over a little more, Jeff will follow. He has always been a player that matched the intensity of others, which is fine if EJ/Travis step it up. Lets give him a break till Friday or Tuesday before we criticize too much.

I know there are warning signs, but I think its thought to get the seniors going for an "exhibition game" when there are so many freshmen around, I think the seniors were deferring; which lead to a lot of mins in which the team just looked lost. Come tomorrow I expect a whole new attitude.

SDSurferFan 8 years, 5 months ago

Just got word here in San Diego State that KU and SDSU will have a home/home the next two years. I AM SO STOKED!!!!!!

Tony Bandle 8 years, 5 months ago

Just a question...we're all cheering for the same team, right?

Finding cleverer and cleverer ways to insult each other strikes me as so "Missouri-ish"!!!

To insult someone under the veil of anonymity is the ultimate act of cowardness...and I have done it myself and regretted it.

Just's not going to change anything but at least I'm on the record for saying Kansas Nation should be above this!!!

Ron Prichard 8 years, 5 months ago

Ummm....I'm pretty sure you are a serial-alias poster troll. What, you've only been posting since...Nov. 2008?!

I'm just giving you grief, Oakville. I agree with your sentiment. Instead of insulting each other, we should be finding clever ways of insulting Missouri/a/uh.

Tony Bandle 8 years, 5 months ago

LOL...Awesome.... Missouri couldn't suck more even if they were a toilet plunger!!

Alohahawk 8 years, 5 months ago

What? I thought they were a toilet plunger. LOL!

Robin Smith 8 years, 5 months ago

apparently there are some very petty and juvenile people with nothing more worthwhile in their lives

bradynsdad 8 years, 5 months ago

Agreed. I agree that we all cast out criticism but I don't agree with going after our freshman. Opinions are good but I would much rather be optimistic than talk about our players transferring or leaving. Been a lot of negativity on here lately.

RJ King 8 years, 5 months ago

Totally agree Oak. This website is better than that. There are plenty of sites that offer mean-spirited one liners from keyboard cowards.

I hope for dialogue like what I might experience bumping into a Jayhawk fan in a bar, in the grocery store, on a chairlift, in a line a Disneyland, on the golf course, and so on. We might disagree, or find each other ignorant or annoying, but we maintain courtesy because we are face to face.

I understand cyberspace. What disturbs me is that - not only are insulting posters anonymous - so are their targets.

The target could be an 80-year-old grandfather who finally figured out how to use a computer . . . a mother who drives little leaguers all over town, brings snacks, takes them to the doc for broken arms and sprained ankles. It could be a laid off worker perusing this site in between resumes and phone calls. Someone's daughter - a recent graduate of KU whose own experience playing CYO basketball gave her a basic knowledge and unbridled enthusiasm. Maybe a frazzled step parent dealing with troubled teens, a demanding boss, balancing the family budget, and caring for an elderly parent? How about a disabled vet, parent of a handicapped child, or cancer victim? Our fanbase no doubt comes in all shapes, sizes, and situations.

Some try to justify the insults by saying, "if you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen." The problem is, we LIKE kitchens. We gather there to throw ideas around, share feelings, and laugh. It's a diversion from the more serious aspects of life, and connects us through our passion. Kansas Nation.

jaybate 8 years, 5 months ago


I believe we are mostly on the same team here, but there are some that are not.


I'm not "going after" our freshman for gosh sakes.

This is D1 college basketball within College Sports, Inc.

Self said something last season to the effect that he could not threaten one guy's job with another guy, because they lacked depth. Self went out and brought in a whole bunch of bodies to make sure he wasn't faced with that again.

And now he's pitting them against each other.

And he's implying through the number 4 that AW3 and Anrio are not in the rotation. And he's at least suggesting that these guys aren't going to be part of the rotation.

All I am doing is noting what he is saying, and trying to analyse the implications for these two players.

I want the NCAA to stop coaches from running players once they get their rides. I want 4 year rides restored. I wish Merv were still on the team. I always side with the players. I want them paid. I want four year guarantied rides. I have written about these points of view many times.

But that's not how it is yet. And so during the season, and in the off season, trying to figure out the team necessarily involves figuring out who is going to jump willingly, and who is going to be pushed, and for who. If you don't think about it, it doesn't mean it isn't going on. And if we do push it out into public discourse, then maybe the ugliness of it will eventually be impressed upon enough people that we finally get some change in the system.

Let me repeat: I want a system where AW3 is guarantied to be here for 4 seasons, because he seems a very good guy that will in time develop into a winning player.

But as things stand today in terms of the rules, this terrific kid, AW3, could easily get forced out, if 2-3 super players decide they want to come to KU and combine with what else Self will have around next year, in order to max out their chances of winning a ring.

Its crazy and cruel that the system is this way.

But it is this way.

And to hide our heads in the sand about it does no one any good IMHO.

The players apparently are all plenty savvy about this reality and the risks it brings.

Why in the hell should we pretend its not going on? Or not discuss the possibility of it?

For gosh, sakes, tell your children that this is how D1 college basketball is. Don't let them grow up thinking it is somekind of a fairy tale.

It is the greatest game ever invented.

And the bad guys are always trying to corrupt it.

And the rule makers are sometimes making rules with good intentions that lead to terrible unforeseen consequences.

If we let this issue into public discourse, we at least have some chance of beginning to change the climate of college basketball for the better in this regard.

Rock Chalk!

HawkKlaw 8 years, 5 months ago

I agree. AW3 and Rio will both get sparse minutes this year, much like Naadir last season. They are not at the end of the bench and they get plenty of attention from Self. He's calling them out because he knows that KU will need both of them here and there THIS season. And next year they'll have the experience to make it tough to decide who gets the major minutes between Naadir, AW3, Rio, BMac (if he's still here), Selden, Frankamp and Greene (did I miss anyone? lol). Self has a very enviable group of guards in line for next season. Rio and AW3 (along with Tharpe) are going to be the "old dogs," which gives them an edge on the Freshmen. They aren't going anywhere.

I agree that Landon is the only guy in this group that might transfer. But if we pick up Joel Embiid, Lucas will stay and will probably be a major rotation guy until Embiid figures out the system. If we get a really high-caliber, ready-to-play Center signed for next season, Lucas could be gone. But at this point I think Embiid is who we'll get and I don't see Lucas transferring because of that.

Curtis Stutz 8 years, 5 months ago

Good post kD. I agree with you that Self isn't gonna bring a guy in unless he's interested in developing him. I think the fact that he's considering a red-shirt for Lucas tells me he doesn't want to see him transfer, he wants to have him on his team in another 4 years once he's built him into a beast. Lucas is a big slab of marble, as much as we all want KU to get 6'10" 240lb players that can jump higher than Jesus every year, Self has to be a realist and not take for granted a hardworking kid with Landen's size that could be a difference maker in the future. How excited do you think UK fans were about Josh Harrellson his first 3 years? He knows how hard Cal has it trying to start from square 1 each season, he loves that EJ and Releford are there to mentor BMac and Tharpe, continuity means something to him. I'm certain he wants to see Selden trying to attack 'Rio in practice next year and have AW3 showing Greene the ropes. Those guys know how much they have to improve to get a jump on next year's class, so it will keep them motivated even if the PT is hard to come by this year.

As much as we all want AW3 ready, BMac might be that shooter you're talking about, as well as Tharpe. I don't think Self or KU need AW3's shooting as much as you suggest. I was encouraged by the way AW3 rebounded against Emporia, but personally I just prefer a tighter 8 man rotation.

jaybate 8 years, 5 months ago

None of this is about whether Self properly coaches the guys he has. None of this is about whether Self would put guys on the wood for a season because they won't give him what he wants. We know Self does that. Russ Robb proves that.

The question I have raised is: What would Self likely do if three of Wiggins, Randle, the new big that just reclassified and Embiid say they want to come KU?

Would Self say: sorry, we're full up with guys that I can't play more than three minutes against Washburn?

I really don't follow the line of board rats thinking on this.

I don't think there is any reason to think he would say that.

Self and Mychah Downs went their separate ways.

Self appeared to run Ty Appleton.

Self appeared to run Merv.

Self appeared to agree to part company with Royce, because Royce appeared not to want to red shirt.

To be clear, if one, or none of these top players want to come to KU, then there is no problem for AW3, or Anrio, or Frank Mason.

But if three want to come, there are probably going to be some good-byes IMHO.

Curtis Stutz 8 years, 5 months ago

It'd be such a great problem to have that I refuse to worry about it jaybate :D Okay, I'll entertain the idea, even though there's no way KU lands Dakari, Randle and Embiid. If Wiggins comes chances are either White or Greene are gone, so there's his schollie. We have 1 free yet, so that's Embiid's. Good chance Mason never ends up at KU so there's 1 for Randle. Good chance BMac goes pro, so there's 1 for Johnson. Boom, possibly don't even have a transfer, possibly just don't end up with Mason or Greene ever at KU, or maybe AW3 would transfer if he saw Wiggins coming in to dominate the PT at the wing. But again, it's a wonderful problem to have and almost no chance Randle and Dakari both choose KU and Embiid still comes. Actually that'd be the other guy, maybe KU lands Embiid but he decides to go elsewhere if Randle and Johnson come, so then we've got to find another recruit rather than look for a transfer!

Jack Wilson 8 years, 5 months ago

I generally agree that if Self didn't want Lucas, he wouldn't redshirt him.

But try this -- Self sees Lucas as a project. No idea how he'll turn out. But he knows he won't need him this season (if he does, he can pull the redshirt). He is good with the redshirt because he knows, regardless, it doesn't harm his program (other than clogging a scholarship because he likely won't after sitting a season). It's insurance.

The clogging the scholarship deal is the one reason Self wouldn't do a redshirt.

Again, I agree that the redshirt is a good sign for Lucas' long term potential here.

Ethan Berger 8 years, 5 months ago

I'm not going to lie, part of me wants Frank mason to decommit. I'm glad he chose Kansas, but I see bigger fish in the pond. I hope we can Land Joel Embiid. With Peters and Lucas as he primary challengers to play Center, I think he can get some good playing time and I predict the next rivals rating will have him at 34. Now lets say Mason decommits. That opens up another spot. I'm assuming B Mac will be done after this year and be a top 10 pick. There is another spot. My gut also tells me 1 transfer at least. So there we have 3 open spots. This will be a good for signing Roberson, Randle, Lawrence, or Gordon. Unless of course, all those guys commit in the fall. Hopefully 3 of 4 commit in the spring after the season concludes. This will be the foundation to a very special team. (Selden could be a one and done if he improves his shot).

jaybate 8 years, 5 months ago

Now, that's a thought I had overlooked.

If 2-3 of these super players were to commit to KU, then Self might not have to flush AW3 and Anrio to get them. Self could flush Frank Mason and one of the other two.

I suppose he could consider flushing Landen Lucas, but Self has just said that Lucas was going to be a major presence in the low post in future seasons.

As I commented above: oh, how I wish the NCAA would restore 4 year rides and ramp up the penalties for running players. Self is a "right way" guy. I suspect he would like a rule change that would permit him to compete on a level playing field where players had to be kept around by all teams.

Jack Wilson 8 years, 5 months ago

Hawk90 - Right, Mason could decommit.

But that's the only way you get 2 fall signing guys, say Embiid and Roberson. Or a fall signing and winter commit, say Embiid and Lawrence.

Why? Self won't over-recruit .. meaning assuming a scholarship opening.

However, could he do so (over-recruit .. see Pitino) under the auspices of "assuming" McLemore goes pro, knowing that it is not a high probability? Then play his cards on manuevering a transfer? Sure. But I wouldn't bet on it.

And I agree with jb ... it's a nasty business. The transfer rules permit players to move, and it's hard to legislate when the coach is booting them, vs. when the kid really makes the decision. Too many manipulation possibilities to sort through there.

Curtis Stutz 8 years, 5 months ago

Is it just me or did it look like TRob was responding to that dude reaching around and grabbing for his junk?

REHawk 8 years, 5 months ago

Thanks for the link. Thomas probably will pay dearly. The incident might keep defenders wary of him in the future; but also might lead to seasoned veterans climbing into his head to stir future ejections. Jerebko won't be swallowing well for a couple of weeks.

AsadZ 8 years, 5 months ago

I read this yesterday and while I do not like his coaching style I must admit that what he has accomplished at UK with his social media technique is playing Big dividends.

BCJayhawk 8 years, 5 months ago

Since someone mentioned Royce Woolridge, I will be interested to see how he does as Washington State's starting point guard against Div-1 Eastern Washington tomorrow night. Cougars' coach Ken Bone permanently dismissed his returning senior point guard this fall (Reggie Moore, 10.2 ppg, 5.2 apg) with the idea that Royce would take over this season. Moore was a, (shall we say?) mercurial figure in his three years at WSU. One thing I cannot figure out is how both Lindy's and Athlone have Woolridge listed as an immediately-eligible sophomore. Shouldn't he be a junior? Played sparingly at KU as a freshman, sat out last year as a sophomore transfer, should now be a junior. I just cannot decipher these NCAA transfer rules, and they get more complicated every year. Can anyone help?

BCJayhawk 8 years, 5 months ago

With all due respect, Konkey Dong, I don't see how the Royce Woooridge case shakes down. Are you saying that he is now a second-semester sophomore in this fall semester of 2012? I am quite sure he did not play second semester of last year, nor do I think he was even on the active roster at WSU. One thought that did enter my mind is that he got a hardship waiver for his transfer from KU. I seem to remember that his mother, who lives in Phoenix, was supposed to be ill, and that Royce was supposed to transfer to Arizona. So maybe he had to sit out a year, but he lost no eligibility. I wish him well; he certainly has a chance now to show what he can do as a starter on a team that is projected to finish at best 7th in the Pac 12;

REHawk 8 years, 5 months ago

Per NCAA ruling, Royce is a sophomore in regard to his athletic eligibility in the sport of basketball. He played one year at KU, then sat out with a red shirt last season at Washington State. He is entitled to 3 years of play in his transfer school.

wildjayhawk 8 years, 5 months ago

Doesn't sound like TRob is measuring up to what was expected of him. Overrated player.

tdscpa 8 years, 5 months ago

Anyone who rates wildjayhawk's intelligence as equivalent to human is overrating the pussy.

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