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Thursday, May 10, 2012

Keegan

Turner Gill left recruiting abyss

Kansas head coach Turner Gill leaves the field after KU's loss to Missouri in the Border War on Saturday, Nov. 26, 2011 at Arrowhead Stadium.

Kansas head coach Turner Gill leaves the field after KU's loss to Missouri in the Border War on Saturday, Nov. 26, 2011 at Arrowhead Stadium.

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The inevitable roster upheaval that occurs when coaching changes take place in college football makes it particularly difficult to try to forecast starters, just shy of four months from the season-opener.

But for the purpose of looking at Turner Gill’s impact on the Kansas University football program during his two-year stay, let’s give it a try.

Since it’s probably as common as any of the many personnel groupings head coach/offensive coordinator Charlie Weis will deploy, let’s go with one running back, one tight end and three wide receivers.

Here’s a guess at the 11 offensive starters: Quarterback Dayne Crist, running back Tony Pierson, receivers D.J. Beshears, Daymond Patterson and Kale Pick, tight end Jimmay Mundine, left tackle Tanner Hawkinson, left guard Duane Zlatnik, center Trevor Marrongelli, right guard Gavin Howard, right tackle Riley Spencer.

That’s nine Mark Mangino recruits, one Charlie Weis recruit (Crist) and one Turner Gill recruit (Pierson, one of three impressive Gill running back recruits).

Two possible forecast crashers would be receiver Josh Ford and tight end Charles Brooks, junior-college transfers recruited by Weis. Ford’s a 6-foot-4, 195-pound burner who could make a long deep target for Crist. Brooks, 6-4, 245, has played more basketball than football, which doesn’t make him the next Antonio Gates, but does make him intriguing.

Guessing the 11 defensive starters presents a stiffer challenge, not just because coming up with 11 non-stiffs requires digging deep into the roster.

The forecast: hybrid defensive ends/linebackers Toben Opurum and Michael Reynolds; defensive end Josh Williams, a 6-4, 260-pound high-ceiling athlete who ran out of his welcome in four years at Nebraska and gets a fresh chance to prove to NFL scouts he has matured, learned his lessons, isn’t a knucklehead, etc.; junior-college defensive tackles Jordan Tavai and Ty McKinney; linebackers Anthony McDonald, a Notre Dame transfer, and Schyler Miles, a freshman block of granite from Florida; safeties Lubbock Smith and Bradley McDougald; cornerbacks Greg Brown and Tyler Patmon.

That’s five Mangino recruits, five Weis recruits (McDonald, McKinney, Miles, Tavai and Williams) and one Gill recruit (Reynolds).

Gill and his staff did draw kudos for recruiting quarterback Brock Berglund (never played a down), running back Darrian Miller (sent packing for multiple team-rules violations) and safety Keeston Terry (transferred to a less-demanding program).

Lew Perkins hired Gill largely because he thought he would ensure the student-athletes would have a “positive” college football experience and because he thought Gill would upgrade recruiting. Two of the 22 projected starters are Gill recruits. Oh well, at least they were the offensive and defensive MVPs of the spring game.

Comments

hometownhawk 2 years, 3 months ago

Mr. Keegan, I see you're still stealing your article ideas from the message boards. Very professional of you.

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Bangkok_Jayhawk 2 years, 3 months ago

Hometownhawk... No disrespect but I think those are usually the best kinds of articles! I think we, the message board warriors, have some great perspectives. I liked the article.

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Jackalope7 2 years, 3 months ago

I agree with Bangkok_Jayhawk. I like reading everyone's comments on the articles simply because I believe we have a pretty intelligent fan base who provide good insight and different point of views. I don't think Keegan is the best writer, but who cares where he gets his ideas. In fact, I'd be flattered if a comment I made on the message board sparked a good article. And make no mistake, this is one of Keegan's better articles.

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kualum95 2 years, 3 months ago

This coaching staff is a train wreck waiting to happen. At least Gill was a man of his word and could get into the homes of recruits. Weis never proved he could recruit at ND. Look at who he has brought in all 5th Yr players from ND... come on people wake up....

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Waylon Cook 2 years, 3 months ago

lmao! You are ignorant to CFB clearly!

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Sam Brockert 2 years, 3 months ago

Yeah all those pesky tp 10 recruiting clasees he got at ND... HE SUCKS at recruiting. I bet you are also one of those people who say Self has lost his recruiting edge...Even though his last recruiting class was in the Top 10.

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niemoth 2 years, 3 months ago

I have no doubt that Gill was a man of his word and I was one to hope he didn't get fired after 2 years, but I also know he cancelled 2 recruiting trips to watch Dorial Green-Beckham whose mom got her masters from KU. My guess is that it would have been hard to get him to Kansas with our recent success but still can't cancel 2 trips on the #1 recruit in the country when he has ties to KU and one of the main things he was looking at was staying close to home. Lawrence is just as close to Springfield as Columbia.

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Theonlythingthatexceedsyourbad 2 years, 3 months ago

I think the Gill experiment was a train wreck that did happen.

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Cmill1221 2 years, 3 months ago

Maybe if you put Turner Gills previous coaching job to a microscope like you have HCCW previous coaching career we would not be in the mess we are in now. If you would Have actually "WOKE UP" and looked at his stats before he came to KU you would see he never should have been hired. If you compare the two head coaches head to head its a landslide for CW. After this post you have zero credibility.

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Lance Hobson 2 years, 3 months ago

So when one of you hacks happens upon an obvious story idea the professionals have to skip it? No offense, but I'd rather read something from someone who knows what he's doing over your vapid rants. Very amateur of you.

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Joe Satterwhite 2 years, 3 months ago

Pretty low to bash a guy that no longer should even need to be talked about. But hey, that's Keegan for ya.

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bville_hawk 2 years, 3 months ago

Why shouldn't TG be talked about? We are going to be suffering because of his performance as a head coach for another couple seasons. I felt Keegan did a pretty fair analysis. The recruits from the Gill era aren't (for the most part) helping us now.

It's hard to make a silk purse from a sow's ear and it's clear that there isn't much talent in the recruiting 'cupboard' from the Gill years.

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april28 2 years, 3 months ago

I saw no evidence of bashing. In fact, it was an enlightening article. I guess I didn't fully realize the impact of a really, really bad coaching hire.

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Aaron Carpenter 2 years, 3 months ago

That's asinine. Why would people not bash on Gill. Oh yeah, he's a nice guy. I forgot that we are supposed to be all lovey dovey with people just because they are nice and give you butterflies in your tummy. Grow up, he was a part of the program, and a dark part at that. He did not perform, as a matter of fact he made us worse. Don't blame Keegan for writing an article about the past. Who was that guy that coached the basketball team for many many years, Roy something......oh well, that was in the past, can't talk about it.

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Bryan Summers 2 years, 3 months ago

Seriously! An entire article just to bash on Gill? Let's move on.

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funkitect 2 years, 3 months ago

actually, i think there are about ($)6 million reasons why it's still okay to bash Gill.

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Dan Pawlowski 2 years, 3 months ago

There is no bashing here. It's an informative article. I appreciated it.

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Aaron Carpenter 2 years, 3 months ago

That's asinine. Why would people not bash on Gill. Oh yeah, he's a nice guy. I forgot that we are supposed to be all lovey dovey with people just because they are nice and give you butterflies in your tummy. Grow up, he was a part of the program, and a dark part at that. He did not perform, as a matter of fact he made us worse. Don't blame Keegan for writing an article about the past. Who was that guy that coached the basketball team for many many years, Roy something......oh well, that was in the past, can't talk about it.

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Doug Cramer 2 years, 3 months ago

And what does that make you to bash a guy through a chat board.

Tom - I thought it was a good article.

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jhawkrulz 2 years, 3 months ago

Love this article...we always ask the reports/analyst to tell the hard stories...this is an example of it.

I think there are a lot of people that question Gill, but this really starts to put it in perspective. Granted, most of TG's recruits would be red-shirt freshmen or sophmores, but lets be honest. This does help explain some of the issues.

If he wanted to bash TG, he would of talked about the Grade Point Averages and not the 4 wins against Div 1 (or whatever they are called) teams. Or the 1-16 record in the Big XII. No wins against KSU, MU, or ISU.

Thanks Keagan for this article...write some more like it.

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BC5 2 years, 3 months ago

awesome breakdown. gill got paid a lot of money and it is part of the job to be scrutinized. a lot of people whining about the free articles they get to read on here.

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Dirk Medema 2 years, 3 months ago

Are we really expecting 3* F/S's to start in place of Jr's & Sr's? Will the article say the same thing next year when Gill's recruits aren't F/S's? When the entire OL are Gill recruits? Losing 30+ players is not a good sign, but expecting underclassmen to start in place of upper classmen just lacks common sense.

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Michael Sillman 2 years, 3 months ago

Still way too early to pass final judgment on Gill's recruits (or on Weiss' guys for that matter).

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Jeremy Bolinger 2 years, 3 months ago

Hardly. The cabinet was bear before Gill was fired. No qb depth. No dl depth. Our deepest position was rb, and look at the attrition we've had since Weis took over. Now Weis may not be the best game day coach, the man certainly knows talent. Gill recruited like a coach that didnt know what the hell he was doing. Gill did nothing but set this program back 3 years. Gill sucks, and anyone rushing to his defense needs to remember he is starkly stealing money from KU. He's worse than those who worked in the ticket office.

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bradh 2 years, 3 months ago

Funny, I remember hearing the same "cupboard is bare" story when Mangino was forced out. Now, according to the article, 14 of the 22 starters will be Mangino recruits. Jaylark makes sense to me, we need to wait to see if Gill's recruiting was successful or not.

I didn't like the hiring of Gill, but he did the best job he could do while he was here and there's no point in heaping aspersions on him now. We may really like some of his recruits before all is said and done. He didn't steal a penny, we (Perkins) forced it on him. The people in the ticket office did go out and steal money, so there isn't any comparison.

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Dan Pawlowski 2 years, 3 months ago

The lack of discipline issues indicates his best job was far from adequate. If you can't coach up the talent you recruited at least get them to not act like idiots.

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kujayhox 2 years, 3 months ago

I kind of like Evidence that the editor reads the message boards.

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pizzashuttle 2 years, 3 months ago

Gill was here like 2 seasons and he got a late start recruiting his first season and did way better than expected. Mangino left Gill in a world of hurt at LB and DL so to pin this on Gill is a bunch of BS. This is a bogus article and as usual I wish Keegan was better informed.

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baldwinjhawk 2 years, 3 months ago

I don't mind the bashing on Gill, just because he was an awful coach. Who cares if he's a wwjd guy. Good for him. He was a huge downgrade. I remember my friend. A grad student from KState interning in the AD dept when Gill started. He called me and said " dude you guys made a huge mistake, this guy is so unorganized it's embarrassing. I played it off that he was just being a hater. He was totally right. We were disorganized the last two season. Penalties..yuck. Anyway beating a dead horse. Nighty night.

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nuleafjhawk 2 years, 3 months ago

There was (actually) a pretty good article about HCCW in the Salina Journal this morning, if anyone's interested. Better than any Gill article, in my opinion.

http://www.saljournal.com/sports/story/weis2012-05-10T01-04-11

Here's a little tidbit for you:

Charlie Weis didn't waste a lot of time after arriving as Kansas' new football coach trying to win the hearts and minds of his Jayhawk players.

There were two choices: get on board, or hit the road.

"It's not tricky," Weis said of dealing with the nonbelievers. "You just get rid of 'em, which I did.

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VaJay 2 years, 3 months ago

Great stuff nuleaf! I didn't know Salina had internet.

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nuleafjhawk 2 years, 3 months ago

lol - it's dial up - only 2 days per week. If it's not raining

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Randy Bombardier 2 years, 3 months ago

Now, Now. A lot of good KU fans come from Salina.

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tical523 2 years, 3 months ago

I love the Salina Journal reader-reply comments. Back to the internet jokes again. . . .

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Ben Kane 2 years, 3 months ago

I find it most amazing that this article has about twice as many comments as the basketball article...

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cg1029 2 years, 3 months ago

While the numbers are dwindling I find it beyond belief that anyone is still defending Gill at this point. He was a great person but as a FB coach he may be the worst thing to ever happen to KU FB. We still have no clue what CW will do but my guess is he won't embarrass KU on a weekly basis.

Anyone that states Gills recruits still need time to mature is either an idiot or a moron. Unless they made the field played and showed ability it is time to move on. Last year WAS THE WORST KU FOOTBALL TEAM I HAVE EVER SEEN and if you were not good enough to play on that train wreck your not good enough to help the program move on.

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Keith Hummel 2 years, 3 months ago

Agreed, but I actually question the assumption that he was even a great person. How can you possibly be a "great" person when you take the money he took, then do such an incredibly lousy job, and then leave such a colossal mess. The one thing he was supposedly good at was molding great young men, yet we are finding out many of those young men had lousy attitudes, couldn't show up for class and couldn't stay out of trouble. So in addition to the obvious fact he didn't have a clue what he was doing as a coach, it turns out he was an even worse leader and mentor. In the end Gill was a fraud, pure and simple, and the University of Kansas was a victim of his con game. He made a fool out of me and anyone else that supported him. I won't forget that any time soon.

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KGphoto 2 years, 3 months ago

I think Mangino going 0-7 to end 2009 killed our momentum pretty effectively.

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741hawk 2 years, 3 months ago

Don't know about throwing the MU game, but TOTALLY agree that Lew's unnecessary IN-SEASON witch hunt RUINED what would have been a winning season,.

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Jim Jackson 2 years, 3 months ago

It is a bit unfair to bash GIll's recruiting right now as Weis has kicked off quite a few and, they were to be RS Frosh and Soph's. That being said, Gill was very unorganized and just too soft to be a BIg 12 coach. Additionally, his in game adjustments were embarrassing. The loss to ND St a 1 AA team, was just pathetic. I can't believe Turner is getting 6 million in compensation; astonishing.

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NebraskaJayhawk 2 years, 3 months ago

I agree with this post. Pretty much spot on. I don't think Gill's recruiting was as bad as the article stated. I think in another year we're going to reap some benefits of Gill's recruiting. We've got a great stable of offensive linemen, but are currently overshadowed by some decent upper classmen. We have a slew of great running backs and might have lost the best one in Miller. But as far as a coaching standpoint....just wow. Good post.

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Jim Jackson 2 years, 3 months ago

Has there been any concrete talk about Clemson & FSU joining the Big 12? I think Louisville & BYU are more likely.

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whitechocolate 2 years, 3 months ago

Bowlsby doesn't start until June 15 and it'll probably be a lot of speculation and Twitter rumors until then. Despite the rumor mill, it seems like ACC football-centric teams would be wise to look at us considering the big revenue increase.

This is the most recent article I've found, but it pretty much rehashes all that's been said the last five days or so.

http://kansascity.sbnation.com/2012/5/10/3011549/florida-state-big-12-expansion-seminoles-rumors-clemson

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whitechocolate 2 years, 3 months ago

Here's a couple more interesting links. The first claims the B12 is aiming for Clemson, FSU, Maryland, Notre Dame, & Georgia Tech in that order and we'll have two by the end of summer.

http://jugofsnyder.com/2012/05/09/big-12-to-expand-back-to-12-by-summers-end/

The second is from Orangebloods, which outlines the new ACC contract and how it doesn't include third tier rights, something FSU and Notre Dame would love to have.

http://texas.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=1363940

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bville_hawk 2 years, 3 months ago

Those who are saying to forget about Turner Gill and move on are wrong. We need be reminded of that horrible mistake on a frequent basis. The adage about those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it is so true.

Turner Gill lacked the management and organizational skills needed to run a big time program. We should never, ever, ever make that mistake again! I don't think AtlJaybird is making too much of a reach when he (she?) says that Gill was a fraud and a con. The facts speak for themselves.

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KGphoto 2 years, 3 months ago

Gimme a break. First you call him disorganized and insinuate he's a moron, then you say he conned us. Which is it? If somebody offered you 6 million guaranteed to coach a football team, and you "believed" you could do the job, you would take it. That makes you a fraud and a con? Calling him those things is foolish.

Learn from history, don't dwell in it.

The hate for this guy simply amazes me.

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bville_hawk 2 years, 3 months ago

No hate, just stating facts.

Definitions- Fraud: A person or thing intended to deceive others, typically by unjustifiably claiming or being credited with accomplishments or qualities.

Con: An instance of deceiving or tricking someone.

I said it is not too much of a reach to apply these to Turner Gill. I stand by those words. You would have to look inside Gill's head to see his motives.

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Keith Hummel 2 years, 3 months ago

Obviously, I agree. And I chose those words very carefully. Whether he consciously perpetrated the fraud or not is irrelevant in my mind. Many of the most notorious con-men in history were able to rationalize their crime and convince themselves they were doing the right thing. But in the end we each have a responsibility to be who we say we are, not who we wish we were. That's especially true when you take 6 million of someone else's dollars.

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Al Martin 2 years, 3 months ago

Not so minor correction. He took 10 million of someone else's dollars.

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JayHawkFanToo 2 years, 3 months ago

Your premise is completely wrong as you indicate that Gill committed fraud and conned KU into giving him a job. How exactly do you believe he did this? Turner Gill was not a member of Seal Team 6 or worked as deep cover agent for the NSA. Everything Gill did, essentially since he was a high school QB, through his college playing days at NU and every coaching position he has ever had has been extensively documented. Even a cursory Google search for "Turner Gill" gives 2.4 million hits. There is nothing that he has done in his public life and career that has not been widely reported. At the time I posted that Gill was did not have the qualifications to be HC at BCS team. It is not his fault that he was offered a contract worth at least 3 times what his credential warranted,,,but how is that his fault? If someone offers you 3 or 4 times your current salary and guarantees it for 5 years because he thinks you can do the job, would you turn it down? And if after a couple of years he tells you that he does not think it is working out and that you will be let go, are you telling me that you would not take what is rightfully owed to you, since the job did not work out? I seriously doubt that. Whether we like it not not, KU and Turner Gill signed a valid and binding contract and Gill took what he was entitled to take. Turner Gill should have never been hired as HC and if hired, he should not have given the contract (amount and guarantees) that he got. I am sure that he would have taken the job for half of what KU gave him. The blame in this whole debacle falls solely on the shoulders of Lew Perkins. Don't get me wrong, I honestly believe that Perkins did a lot of good things for KU, getting KU to the Orange Bowl being at the top; however, the hiring of Gill was a mistake of epic proportion that offsets his achievements.

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Keith Hummel 2 years, 3 months ago

It always pains me to disagree with you KG because I admire your loyalty, and respect your insight, and usually agree with your comments. But on the topic of Gill I disagree.

I don't think it's entirely wrong or foolish to say he was a fraud or a con man. Here's why.

A fraud is a person who acts in a false or deceitful way. Gill deceived the AD and us by presenting himself as something he wasn't - a great coach. I don't buy this business that he "believed" he could do the job. Self deception is just as bad, or worse than deceiving others. Should the AD and us be held responsible for that horrible decision? Of course. But Gill also marketed himself as something he clearly wasn't, and that was fraudulent.

A con man is a person who swindles another by means of a confidence trick. A confidence trick is an attempt to defraud a person or group by gaining their confidence. Gill gained our confidence that he was a new kind of coach - one who could win games with a different kind of program that focused on personal growth and integrity, and won games. In the wake of the Mangino mess the allure of that marketing pitch was irresistible, and the KU AD fell for it. The truth is it was all a figment of Gill's imagination. Yet even after it was obvious he was in over his head, and couldn't deliver on his promise, he merely took the money and ran. Yes he was legally entitled to that money, but if he were a man of honesty and integrity he would have given some of it back. The fact that he has never admitted he ever made even one mistake, much less offer to return some of our ill-given cash, is just further proof that we were all conned by him. That we were conned by a self-described good Christian just makes it all the more insulting.

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KGphoto 2 years, 3 months ago

With all due respect Atl, that is a load of crud.

You are actually giving Gill too much credit, which is an odd twist. No way he came into this job knowing he would fail. He had success at every level previous. As a player, as a position coach, and as a head coach. He had learned under one of the greatest coaches in college football history, and he was a hot commodity for awhile. So to say he was acting criminally by taking the huge contract is really reaching. What makes you believe he knew he couldn't do it? That just sounds crazy to me.

And nobody, nobody, nobody, gives back money for poor performance. Show me one instance of this, please. You wouldn't do it. Nobody does it. Not at any job. That's not part of the agreement. You make the hire, you deal with the result. End of story.

I kind of can't believe you are going down this road Atl.

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Joseph Kuebel 2 years, 3 months ago

He had success at every level previous????? He was 20-30 at Buffalo. I realize Buffalo was awful before than but 20-30 is not "great success" (thanks, Borat)

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Keith Hummel 2 years, 3 months ago

Fair enough, but don't tell me what I would or wouldn't do. You don't know me. For starters I wouldn't lobby for a job I wasn't qualified for.

And don't put words in my mouth. I did not say he was acting criminally! I said he presented himself as something he wasn't (i.e. fraud), and took advantage of the situation and his reputation to effectively swindle huge sums of money from us (i.e. con job). There is no criminal case there, just a shocking example of someone with questionable character.

You can dismiss me as a nut job all you want, but I stand my my assertion that Gill took all of us for a ride. Like bville_hawk said, I can't speak to his motives, but I can speak to the responsibility he had to deliver on what he promised. He failed miserably in almost every aspect of his job.

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KGphoto 2 years, 3 months ago

You are certainly not a nut job. You're one of my favorite posters. Sorry to put words in your mouth. It wasn't my intention, it just sounded like that's what you were saying.

However, fraud is a criminal act, no? Especially when we are talking about 6 million.

I don't want to fight you about it but I'm having a hard time seeing that he knew he couldn't do it. He's a confident guy. It was big news what he did in Buffalo, even if it was only one year. Big name programs were looking at him. Why wouldn't he think he couldn't do it?

And as far as "failed miserably", that's obviously debatable. All you have to do is read this board to see that. Certainly most were in favor of the firing, but there were still some who saw that it would get better with time, so yes, it's debatable.

It takes more than two years to reshape a program in your image and win in one of the toughest conferences in America, at a school like Kansas. His teams underperformed, but he had been recruiting some stud RBs and with a real DC last year (like Torbush) who knows what we'd be talking about right now.

I'm sure Gill thought he would be heading into this season with his QB, finally, a real DC, a good OL and some flashy RBs.

He may be a little slow, but surely he's no fraud.

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Hawkword369 2 years, 3 months ago

I feel ol Keegs has every right to write this article. Yes we all know that Gill sucked and didn't leave us with much but if he would of coached better and recruited better we wouldn't be having this conversation at all. Plus I think Keegs is just documenting the facts as he sees it. Hopefully some of Gill's recruits will come around with the help of a way way better coaching staff. I think we are going in the right direction. It only gets better from here. Finally I think Keegon is just giving us articles that he knows will draw some attention and according to all of us that write comments on here he is doing his job.

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Sayers44 2 years, 3 months ago

34th-best class in the country, according to Rivals.com

Just a little over a year ago the KU papers were writing about the fantastic future and what a great recruiting class.... Now the same paper wants to lamblast Gill over recruiting.

You cannot pass judgement on Gill's recruiting class of 2011. They are all too young, as freshman and sophmores should not be ready to play in the Big 12.

Fantastic future? KU football coach Turner Gill ecstatic with No. 34 recruiting class in country

Kansas football coach Turner Gill discusses the recruiting class of 2011, which was labeled the 34th-best class in the country, according to Rivals.com.

Gill announced the class in a news conference on Wednesday, Feb. 2, 2011 at Mrkonic Auditorium.

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Joe Baker 2 years, 3 months ago

He did recruit, recruit, recruit. He said he would and he did. I will give him that much.

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KGphoto 2 years, 3 months ago

Thank you Sayers! We seem to have forgotten some things here.

First of all, isn't Ron Doherty is our starting kicker? I thought he was a Gill recruit.

How about Vernon Brooks and Jamal Greene, both Mangino recruits, who broke into somebody's house in the middle of the night, with guns, to rob drugs and cash. That sure didn't help Gill's situation, and it's worse than anything that happened with his recruits.

How about Gill correctly changing certain player's positions. Sure Toben Opurum was Mangino's recruit, but he was a fullback being used as a tailback. Gill recruited better RBs so he moved the talented and physical Oprurum to the other side, and now TO has a shot at all-conference as a pass rusher.

Bradley McDougald was Mangino's recruit. He was recruited to Ohio St. as a safety, but dreamed of glory as a WR, so Mangino put him there. Gill put him back where he belongs and he too has a shot at all-conference at his natural position.

Our two best defensive players are on the defense because of Gill.

Maybe there are only two "projected" starters on Keeg's list, but it's hard to ignore that KU has the deepest, most talented RB stable in the history of the program, and that's all Gill.

And how about some of these other guys?

Marquis Jackson stands to be a major contributor. Ben Heeney is probably our best special teams player. Dylan Admire will likely step in next year at center. Michael Cummings is the backup QB. Tunde Bakare, Keba Agostinho, Pat Lewandowski, Chad Kolumber, Victor Simmons, JaCorey Sheperd will all see increased playing time as their KU careers unfold. I'm sure there are some of Gill's guys we don't quite hear about yet that will find there way on the field in the future.

Other guys were a victim of the new system too. Weis has said it many times now. New coach = a certain amount of attrition. He got rid of many of Gill's recruits, and that's not exclusive to Gill, it happens everywhere.

Before you all jump on me and start ragging me for being an apologist, keep in mind that even after all I said defending Gill throughout most of his time here, I understand he was terrible at game day coaching. Toward the end of the last season I saw him throw away potential wins, mostly with the QB decision (which could largely be blamed on the OC), but also with a stubborn lack of adjustments.

I'm glad we have Weis. I like him better than Gill. I think he's a better coach than Gill, a better football mind than Gill, and he's every bit as good of a person as Gill, and he's sure as heck a better interview than Gill. I just don't understand why people have such a habit of jumping on one side to start firing away at the other. I don't like it on any level. Not within circles of friends, not with politics, and not with coaches.

Gill did not leave a recruiting abyss, and he's not a con man. That's absurd. His players are well represented on this team, and they'll be contributing for years to come.

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Keith Hummel 2 years, 3 months ago

Remember how Gill said a huge percentage all these Freshmen and Sophomores were going to be starters by now? What happened? If the team was in such desperate need of talent and speed, then why isn't the 34th ranked recruiting class better represented on the starting roster? The answer, in my opinion, is two fold. First, allot of these kids Gill brought in were trouble and should probably never have been recruited. While that's the case to some extent in the every football program, it's surprising in this case given all the crap we heard from Gill about his "fine young men". The second reason so few of these guys will start is that they have been very poorly coached and have developed some bad habits, all thanks to Gill.

You are correct, however, that Gill did bring in some talent. And I also agree that allot of that talent will ultimately show up on the starting roster, perhaps even this year. But that doesn't change the fact that a shockingly small number of these guys are on the one or two deep given the state of our football program.

Lastly, just because someone like me is critical of Gill, it doesn't mean I'm automatically a Mangino lover, or that I switched sides to "pile on" Gill. I supported Gill as much as anyone (and routinely got called a Homer for it). But as it became obvious he was totally unqualified for the job, I and others became increasingly critical. The more I learn about the job he did the more critical I am. I stand by assertion that he was a fraud. That's not being a hater, it's just pointing out the obvious given all we've learned. As many have said, those who ignore the past are bound to repeat it.

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Tony Bandle 2 years, 3 months ago

Those who ignore the past are doomed to repeat it.

Gill's tenure is very topical for many reasons, even if almost all are negative.

Charlie is in the process of slowing down and stopping a runaway freight train. Once he accomplishes this, he can then start the long, slow climb back up to competitive respectibility.

We Jayhawks must recognize that we may not see a winning season for maybe three years but what we must see is increased competitiveness and escalating excitement.

That is the challenge of the Charlie Weis era.

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Joe Baker 2 years, 3 months ago

Three years for a winning program? Say it ain't so.

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Tony Bandle 2 years, 3 months ago

.." may not"....then, again it may come much sooner!!

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Hail_To_Thee 2 years, 3 months ago

That is exactly what we all wanted to see from Gill. I think people realized that he wasnt going to walk in an put us atop the conference in one season. But most wanted to just see improvement, which never came. I agree with your comment about seeing the increased competitiveness. First few years, its not all about winning the conference, as long as we are seeing more and more competitiveness.

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Tony Bandle 2 years, 3 months ago

We, at the very least, need to scare the heck out of a few opponents right away.

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Joe Baker 2 years, 3 months ago

I'm happy to have Weis and this NFL coaching staff. I also believe Gill was part of some NFL teams too, GB? Anyway, that's why you bring in the big names to clean up a program. My expectations and fairness are the same with Weis. In fact, I expect a bit more, a bit sooner than Gill. Weis has brought in some nice talent. I give him this year to fix the team. I expect a winning season next season. I hope to have a winning season this year, which would be nice.

We all know the facts, let's move on and let this Gill deadhorse alone. It's been beat enough.

Rock Chalk

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Hail_To_Thee 2 years, 3 months ago

The one thing that sticks out to me in this article is this.

No matter how much people grew to dislike Coach Mangino, He still was one of the best coaches we've had in a long time. Goin on 3 years removed and his players are still the ones at the top of the list. Granted, Coach Weis has not had a full year to recruit yet, but I think that says alot about Coach Mangino

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Ryan Shelton 2 years, 3 months ago

I'm curious why aperse hasn't commented on this article yet. Oh, I forgot that Keegan doesn't comment on his own articles.

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Randy Bombardier 2 years, 3 months ago

As pointed out by some of the posts I think the article implies that Gill was not much of a recruiter. I don't agree. It seems he didn't do well at developing what he had or developing and making use of what he inherited. The analysis is flawed and so is the conclusion. Gill is not a D1 head coach. His recruiting prowess may really help Liberty and his style and philosophy a better fit there. We gave him a shot and who can deny that it just wasn't working. Last year I was arguing not enough time but by the time that Zenger pulled the trigger I was reluctantly in agreement. Weiss seems to be doing some good things. Let's focus on that.

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wildjayhawk 2 years, 3 months ago

A lot of people new that gill wasn't a coach and tried to tell abunch of the bloggers that , but they didn't listen, you can tell just who they were. Now, what about Self, the questions are sill out.

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ahpersecoachingexperience 2 years, 3 months ago

I know you are all waiting...so i have prepared a video release with an official comment towards Gill and those who hated on me for the past 3 years.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIrhVo1WA78

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97jhawk 2 years, 3 months ago

Keegan is finally drinking the Ahperse Kool-Aid!! Only took TG getting fired and hype of a new coach to bring out the revelation. Or, he figured out you just add a little bit of water and sugar and Voilà!

Apherse is probably rolling his eyes after reading this article while saying, "About time and welcome to the darkside Keegs!!"

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Linejudgemick 2 years, 3 months ago

Before I begin, I don't want anyone to think I believe Mangino didn't have issues, but many here are blaming the wrong guy. KUHawkhead said it earlier when he pointed out that Lew Perkins' witch hunt probably had a great deal to do with Mangino's final "losing streak". Mangino didn't like public appearances - and didn't fit Lew's fund raising ideal. Lew was fixated on the club section and wanted a coach that "fit the mold" and could help him raise funds. It was no secret that Mangino's temper was legendary and probably easy to "find" players willing to "expose" his behavior. It worked, right, wrong, or indifferently, but Mangino was out.

Now Mr. Perkins, if rumors are true, wouldn't let Harbaugh coach the bowl game and went to his second option. A coach who had a 20 - 30 record at a sub-division school and had won a single conference title, but in no small measure to incredible fortune. He wasn't ready for a major conference, but... He was a former player/hero at a big time program, he enjoyed public appearances, and he had a tendency to say all the right things (however I always thought he really said very little). Now Lew makes him the Jayhawk's "up and coming" coach with a salary that in no way matched his accomplishments.

Soon however, Lew was busy covering his own arse because of the gym equipment and ticket scandals and then he was gone almost as soon as TG was in. It became very obvious in a very short time that he wasn't ready, his players often looked confused, we had many organizational penalties, special team errors, and a very bland offensive and defensive philosophy. The second half lapses and blowouts finally forced Z to do the only thing that made sense and make the coaching change - 10 mil or not.

Some of the TG gill recruits given time and coaching could well become solid players, either with KU or elsewhere - only time will tell. But in this case I believe it’s a case of the Xs and Os, instead of the Jimmy's and Joe's (well - some Jimmy and Joe's). But in the end Lew dismantled football at WSU, and then he tried to do the same thing in Lawrence, but through different means. I always felt Lew had Lew's best interest at heart instead of the University.

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Randy Bombardier 2 years, 3 months ago

I remember commenting on the whole thing with MM that it would end up costing Perkins his job but I would have never foreseen that he would make such a lousy hire. I was livid for the first week or so. Then, since I was powerless to do anything about it, I tried my best to be a supporter. Ultimately, that's what we have to do.

About Harbaugh, really? I thought that one was disingenuous. Why would anyone leave Stanford? Harvard with much better sports in a beautiful area.

I remember Tubberville, but I do not recall Fulmer's name coming up at that time. either one, though, would have been much better. Yet, who knows but that this needed to happen so that we get someone who takes us to that 2007 level and keeps us there. I think Weiss can do that. That is what I chose to believe until I see differently.

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Joseph Kuebel 2 years, 3 months ago

Harbaugh actually said on the radio recently he would have taken the KU job, but Lew said leave now (before Stanford's bowl game) or the deal is off the table.

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Randy Bombardier 2 years, 3 months ago

OMG. What an idiot. Like Perkins and KU had some kind of leverage. Wow. That hurts.

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Benjamin Piehler 2 years, 3 months ago

I just threw up in my mouth a little.

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machinegun 2 years, 3 months ago

The Preacher thought his job was to lead a Boy Scout troop.

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jgrobb 2 years, 3 months ago

Gill's positive impact on this U will be seen in 10 years..

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GregStang 2 years, 3 months ago

10 years would be long after any of TG's recruits are gone, so I'm guessing jgrobb meant that it took TG's poor results to get Charlie Weis hired, who will have turned us into a very good program in 10 years, whether or not he's still coaching here.

As far as the Gill hire, I thought at the time that Lew didn't need a rebuilding hire. I think we were preseason #15 nationally at the beginning of Mangino's last year. Harbaugh being willing to take the job reminds me of why I thought that.

I always wonder how the next season would have gone had Mangino stayed, and had there been no public investigation. If he wanted to investigate Mangino, there was absolutely no reason to do it publicly, which would have killed recruiting even if everything had turned out unsubstantiated. But Mangino would have had the guys he recruited for his system. I remember hearing about the lack of talent, and it never made sense to me given Mangino's previous recruiting successes, and his teams which seemed to be steadily improving, with 2007 and 2009 being outlier years (2009 we had Reesing playing hurt, and Oporum should have been our leading rusher in terms of carries and not just yards, but I digress)

But I like the Weis hire for the future of the program. We'll check back on jgrobb's comment in 10 years.

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