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Monday, January 30, 2012

Happier campers: Clinic helps Jayhawks put loss behind

Campers sit in the bleachers as they wait for the Kansas men’s basketball team to arrive before the 28th annual Wilt Chamberlain Basketball Clinic held Sunday, Jan. 29, 2012, in Allen Fieldhouse.

Campers sit in the bleachers as they wait for the Kansas men’s basketball team to arrive before the 28th annual Wilt Chamberlain Basketball Clinic held Sunday, Jan. 29, 2012, in Allen Fieldhouse.

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Upset with himself and the world after Kansas University’s 72-64 loss to Iowa State on Saturday, Bill Self elected to delay the agonizing task of reviewing game film for 24 hours.

“I did not watch the tape on the bus. I was not in the best of moods coming home,” Self, KU’s ninth-year coach, said of the four-hour bus ride back from Hilton Coliseum, where KU (17-4) suffered its first conference loss in eight games.

“I figured, ‘You know what? Instead of getting upset, I’m going to relax and watch TV and not watch the tape.’ I saw plenty of highlights on TV about our game. I’m just now going to watch the tape as soon as we leave here,” Self added Sunday on a much happier occasion — the Jayhawks’ 28th-annual Wilt Chamberlain Special Olympics Clinic.

KU players and coaches worked with 200 or so Special Olympians from 1:30 to 3:30 p.m.

“Losing in Ames ... this certainly changes everyone’s perspective and has everybody in a good mood today,” Self said. “I truly believe our players get as much or more out of it than the Olympians do.”

Senior Tyshawn Taylor said the clinic took the sting off the loss to ISU.

“There’s definitely a bigger picture outside of basketball,” Taylor said. “Life goes on after a loss. I’m just enjoying my time here with our fans today. We’re in the position of being role models, and it’s fun to put smiles on the faces of the Special Olympians today.”

Of course, the minds of Taylor and Self drifted back to Saturday’s loss for at least a few moments Sunday.

“We’ve got to be a better defensive team,” Taylor said. “We’ve got to play teams 35 seconds into the shot clock and not let up. I think that’s where we make a lot of mistakes. We need to be a better rebounding team. We’ve not rebounded the ball well at all lately.”

KU, which was outrebounded, 36-23, by ISU, has been out-boarded in three of the past five games.

“One thing very evident to all of us is we have to pay attention to detail better,” Self said. “We’ve got to pay attention to scouting report better. We can’t take three or four possessions off or forget three or four possessions. That’s the difference in winning and losing. We’ve got a good team, but our margin for error is not as great as it has been in the past. We need to pay more attention to detail and be more disciplined.”

That will all be addressed at practice today. Sunday was about working with the Olympians on fundamentals and bonding with the players.

“This is a tremendous thing for our kids. They look forward to it every year,” said Gary Tanner, volunteer coach for Douglas County Special Olympics. “Their eyes are big ... just to be down here on the floor and get to be with the players and coach Self ... it’s a highlight of their basketball season. We are just grateful and excited they do it every season.”

Scary scene

Self on Sunday discussed what was a scary scene Saturday in Ames. Hundreds of students stormed the court after the final horn and, in the process, injured ref Darron George.

“After coming off the court, our players were tending to the official, Darron George, who was down. He was in so much pain,” Self said. “From what we were told, he broke his arm trying to push people off in the melee. It was a very dangerous situation yesterday.

“Whenever an official is in so much pain he can’t stand up, and he’s one of the first ones off the court and they have police escorts to get them off the court ... whenever it can happen to an official, it can happen to anybody. We are fortunate more people don’t get injured during those situations.”

After the game, ISU officials said George hurt his wrist, but did not head to the hospital for treatment or X-rays. The Big 12 said Sunday George “suffered a hand injury” and is OK.

Self said he believed fans have stormed the court in about 60 percent of KU’s road losses during his nine years at KU.

“We’ve had some great ones. That court storming at Bramlage (Kansas State) was great. Missouri had a great court storming on us. That deal in Ames yesterday ranked right up there with the best of them as far as court storming,” Self said. “I am OK with it, but I think if you are going to allow your students to do that, administration should do a better job of somehow providing security to protect the players and everybody else.”

Comments

Kye Clark 7 years, 5 months ago

Wow...thanks, I needed a good laugh tonight!

ahpersecoachingexperience 7 years, 5 months ago

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Andrew Bary 7 years, 5 months ago

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packywacky88 7 years, 5 months ago

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jayhawkinATL 7 years, 5 months ago

Loved the use of highlights showing a bunch of empty seats in Paige Arena!!!!! LMAO

ahpersecoachingexperience 7 years, 5 months ago

Love how they start the video about a coach who left them. And correct me if I'm wrong but I didn't see a trophy case anywhere in that video.

wisjayhawkfan 7 years, 5 months ago

i now have the "icky" feeling in my stomach

Tony Bandle 7 years, 5 months ago

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Tim Orel 7 years, 5 months ago

Sure sounded like they were totally fixated on KU. Or weren't they saying "Screw Red and Blue"? Man, they need to realize they're just doing it wrong, if they're trying to say they're better than KU - you don't fixate on your opponents if you're trying to show you're above them. KU's about championships - and seven straight is pretty da** good, plus 5 nationals? And how many has Mizzwho won? Yeah, right. Let us know when you win the SEC in anything.

Ben Kane 7 years, 5 months ago

their fan base will be so lost in the sec without us... almost makes one of my brain cells feel said for them.

I will be sure to kill that one brain cell with some alcohol tonight.

Ben Kane 7 years, 5 months ago

*sad

that brain cell is clearly messed up and needs to go.

ahpersecoachingexperience 7 years, 5 months ago

I see the lame police are going a little heavy with the removals.

ahpersecoachingexperience 7 years, 5 months ago

I just wonder if the person that thinks these comments are insensitive laughed at the autistic "water boy" (basically any Adam Sandler movie depicts a disabled person).

Or the mentally retarded brother in "something about mary". "Franks and Beans!"

How about Petey in American Pie 2?

Like Yoda, you ever talk?

Shall I continue?

A simple comparison of these boy's song to that of a special needs music camp is nothing. I guarantee the parents and caretakers of the individuals that participated in yesterday's events would of found some humor in it.

Theonlythingthatexceedsyourbad 7 years, 5 months ago

so hard to watch.

I also think Ratliffe will be getting worked by our bigs. Don't see him dunking in Whithey's face.

Kent Kossoy 7 years, 5 months ago

I am just speechless. I am also sad to admit that being from St. Louis, I had to go to MIZsec for med school. No I have never rooted for Misery. And was very disappointed that they went to the SEC. After watching this (for only 1 minute; had to turn off) I am very happy that they are leaving. They will get a rude spanking in the SEC.

burnmu 7 years, 5 months ago

I think if you hate the JAYHAWKS enough, you can get a degree at mizzou. Seriously, I live here (from Lawrence) in mo and they have serious identity issues, lets see they're missouri, missoura, & mizzou? They can't even get their state name right. Let's play like we can and take it to mu for the last time at their house! GO HAWKS!!!

Kye Clark 7 years, 5 months ago

Agree with Coach Self about the court storming. I don't have a problem (other than the actual loss!) with the Iowa States of the college basketball world doing it, or KSU when they broke their drought against us. It's when successful programs do it that I think it's lame. But yes, there should be some preparations in place to make sure people don't get hurt.

Glad the players had a day off spending time with the Special Olympians to hopefully shake the ISU loss, but also hope that the sting of it is enough to re-focus them on the details.

WilburNether 7 years, 5 months ago

It is troubling that it apparently did not occur to the Iowa State athletic department and administrators that if ISU won, something like this could happen, and that they took no precautions to meet that contingency. Idiot students will be idiot students (we have some of those in Lawrence, too), but where was the adult supervision?

It reminds me of the coin-throwing incidents at Bram-lame Coliseum in 1993 (I think). The idiot KSU morons thew so many quarters at KU players and coaches BEFORE the game that the tip-off was delayed so that they could sweep them off the floor. Well, KU ended up winning a very close game -- and the idiot KSU morons unleashed another barrage, one of which hit Rex Walters in the face, about an inch from an eye. Again, where was the adult supervision? After the PRE-game coin throwing, it didn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that if KU won, there would likely be more. And yet the morons who ran the K-Suck athletic department and university did ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to prevent the repeat after the game.

KSU morons should have been prosecuted for assault, and the KSU officials for negligence.

Ed Brown 7 years, 5 months ago

Are you sure you aren't think of Rupp Arena? We beat KY 150-95 at AFH 12/9/1989 and when KU came on the court 12/8/1990, the quarters came flying. I believe Mark Randall had the quarter literally stick in his forehead. Roy Williams vowed to never shedule a game there or with KY again. We beat them 88-71 that time, btw.

Ben Kane 7 years, 5 months ago

Roy took a lot of flack for his move earlier this season (where everyone went to locker room but the 5 walkons on the floor) but I thought it was a smart move to protect his stars and backups since that game was clearly over.

agree also. the KUs, pukes, unc, of the world should never storm anything but a national title.

JayHawkFanToo 7 years, 5 months ago

I don't agree. A team should always stand together. HC Williams realized he acted wrong and apologized to his players.

Ben Kane 7 years, 5 months ago

would you feel the same way if TRob tore his acl during the court storm?

if the team should always stand together then actions must be taken to ensure their safety in such situations. since no one currently have no such actions in place, i think it was a smart move.

JayHawkFanToo 7 years, 5 months ago

So, it is OK if one of the subs tears an ACL but not if TRob does? I did not see HC Self pulling the starters out of the arena on Saturday before the game was over. I take it that you never participated in team activities? I bet your teammates would have "loved" you if you ever did.

Jeeveshawk 7 years, 5 months ago

Possible espn rankings:

  1. Kentucky
  2. Ohio State
  3. Syracuse
  4. Missouri
  5. Duke
  6. Baylor
  7. Kansas
  8. North Carolina
  9. Murray State
  10. Michigan State
  11. Georgetown
  12. Florida
  13. Creighton
  14. San Diego State
  15. UNLV
  16. Marquette
  17. Mississippi State
  18. Indiana
  19. Saint Mary's
  20. Virginia
  21. Conneticut
  22. Harvard
  23. Michigan
  24. Lousville
  25. Wisconsin

jayhawker_97 7 years, 5 months ago

“There’s definitely a bigger picture outside of basketball,” Taylor said. “Life goes on after a loss...

this is why "we are Kansas" and i'm proud to be a Jayhawk! rock chalk!

jaybate 7 years, 5 months ago

Trouble rebounding with 6-9 TRob and 7-0 Jeff?

How odd.

Defensive glass first.

Opponents seem to be forcing our bigs to guard too far from the bucket by setting so many high screens with one of their bigs for their perimeter players and by sending their other big in motion outside.

Our bigs are playing good hedge and chase defense 20 feet out, but the they are to far out to control the glass. You cannot "man-up," when you are not even near the rebound.

The obvious solution is to go to a zone. It keeps our bigs near the basket. And KU's long and bouncey perimeter players can guard the stripe.

Self seems loath to play zone, because playing man reduces exposure to hot trey shooting streaks. He apparently figures in a two- point shooting game, his bigs are good enough to take your bigs, Withey can alter, and his perimeter defenders can apply so much pressure your trey shooting will crack.

But that strategy has an Achilles heel. Get the bigs away from the basket and Withey can't alter and TRob can't board.

Time to mix in some zone.

O-glass?

Man-up.

jaybate 7 years, 5 months ago

Note: No, I did not think this post was so nice I had to post it twice. :-)

Operator error. Mouse battery flaked, or something.

Steve Kubler 7 years, 5 months ago

Being 20 feet out and dashing in for a board results in additional fouls as they fight for position.

Theonlythingthatexceedsyourbad 7 years, 5 months ago

Good points but I think any zone has been so susceptible to the three we won't do it unless we employ one of the bigs to stop the three in the zone.

Put Whithey at the free throw line, stepping to the top of the key trey. . .obviously that makes issues with rebounding and altering shots. We've shown a zone like this before.

I would prefer to have kevin young or wesley at the top and leave Whithey in the post to alter shots and already be in position to get rebounds. We'll pull this out I'm sure.

I see us with Whithey (5) under the bucket. T-Rob/Young/Wesley (4) at the free throw line, our point (1) offset from the 4 a the top of the key. The 2 and 3 on the wings. We'll do a 4 man switch on the three line and tell the 4 to sink if it goes to the post. The caveat is the 4 can't let his man pass to the post from the top of the key and then sink (the passer is then wide open for 3) and the 4 can't let the ball get in the middle because then everybody is open for three. Yet with this zone it allows for 4 man trey switch guarding and it is a little difficult to get it in the middle from the top, it really requires that guards penetrate from the wings, where Whithey is waiting (and the opposite corner is already helping when Whithey goes to block or alter the shot. I'd bet a a large dose of cash we use a zone similiar to this

jaybate 7 years, 5 months ago

Trouble rebounding with 6-9 TRob and 7-0 Jeff?

How odd.

Defensive glass first.

Opponents seem to be forcing our bigs to guard too far from the bucket by setting so many high screens with one of their bigs for their perimeter players and by sending their other big in motion outside.

Our bigs are playing good hedge and chase defense 20 feet out, but the they are to far out to control the glass. You cannot "man-up," when you are not even near the rebound.

The obvious solution is to go to a zone. It keeps our bigs near the basket. And KU's long and bouncey perimeter players can guard the stripe.

Self seems loath to play zone, because playing man reduces exposure to hot trey shooting streaks. He apparently figures in a two- point shooting game, his bigs are good enough to take your bigs, Withey can alter, and his perimeter defenders can apply so much pressure your trey shooting will crack.

But that strategy has an Achilles heel. Get the bigs away from the basket and Withey can't alter and TRob can't board.

Time to mix in some zone.

O-glass?

Man-up.

nuleafjhawk 7 years, 5 months ago

Here's an idea to keep people from getting hurt.

Win.

No more court storming.

nuleafjhawk 7 years, 5 months ago

Oh - and here's an idea for opposing teams fans when we play at their place:

Someone ought to come up with an original sign that says something like

" You're not in Kansas anymore ".

nuleafjhawk 7 years, 5 months ago

Hey! Maybe Wednesday we can all bring " You're not in Oklahoma anymore " signs. Then we can say " Wooo " during the Rock Chalk chant and yell " home of the CHIEFS! " at the end of the National Anthem.

OH - and yell "Over rated" !!

Benjamin Piehler 7 years, 5 months ago

Lol I forgot they stormed the court at Kstate last year. Nobody does that in a real rivalry...

Paul Brozik 7 years, 5 months ago

Um I remember a year when the Kansas football fans stormed the field three weeks in a row. One was against mizzou when they weren't that good.

Phoghorn 7 years, 5 months ago

Dude you are brilliant when it comes to football. I knew we never should have fired you...or is Ahpersecoachingexperience the real Mangino?

ccarp 7 years, 5 months ago

So glad the team gives back so much off the court. Need to block out on the court. :-) Rock Chalk!

FoCoCoHawk 7 years, 5 months ago

Nobody can convince me now that Tyshawn "doesn't get it". He has both gained a perspective broader than basketball AND become media savvy. Thank you for your 3/12 years at KU, TT and let's make that last half extra special.

RCJH!

Ron Franklin 7 years, 5 months ago

Three straight games of being out rebounded leads me to believe these guys are missing more than attention to detail and discipline. I think they are lacking energy. 35+ minutes a game is wearing these kids out I'm afraid.

Expectations were down this year. This was Bill's chance to develop bench and maybe lose a few more games without so much cause for concern,but he has chosen not to. He sticks with people he trusts like Conner and now he has nobody else to go to this late in the season.

Maybe Ben McLemore being ineligible this year was probably for the best after all. He would have likely wasted a year of eligibility anyway. Just as Nadiir is pulled after a mistake, so would Ben. He'd be wasted like Royce was last year.

Bill's inability to develop good bench play has been his achilles heel year after year. Part of this is due to early departures, but that is the culture of the game now, and Bill needs to adapt. This team has not had any depth except for the 2008 year when they could bring Kaun, Aldrich, & Collins off of the bench.

This team has the talent, but tired legs are going to cost them big down the stretch. I'm ready to accept a few less 35-3 seasons for in exchange for a deeper bench.

I'm talking about National Championships here. I'm not talking about whether or not Bill is a fantastic coach.

I'm talking about Conner Teahan being our sixth man.

Gregor Southard 7 years, 5 months ago

Perhaps his ability to develop depthin practice is the reason KU is 17-4 instead of say, 13-8?

nuleafjhawk 7 years, 5 months ago

You glass half full guys are so annoying..... lol

Theonlythingthatexceedsyourbad 7 years, 5 months ago

Nope. I don't like the idea of losing to get bench players experience. -100

There is too much information on recruiting. People think we should get every single great 5 star Rivals player. With all the websites and coverage it seems like every recruit lost is a greater and greater failure, when in reality it's not. It just a greater and greater covered and analyzed particularity of college sports.

The 2008 team is the only recent Jayhawk team with depth huh?!? I think your setting your standards extremely high. I would guess that that team was potentially the deepest team in KU history, or the deepest within the Brown/Williams/Self era.

Let's remember people that there are literally hundreds of schools where players can go and Self has done very well for the team and the university.

Ron Franklin 7 years, 5 months ago

Not sure why most of your post/reponse to my post is talking about recruiting. I'm talking about using the people when you already have them.

Ron Prichard 7 years, 5 months ago

Search you tube for "Hey, KSU: 1989 called, they want their video back." I think it still takes the cake, although the MU nerd rap is a very close second. But hey...they're not knockin' on the door, they're bustin in!! The $3 drug store sunglasses with the neon sides are a freakin' riot.

Ron Prichard 7 years, 5 months ago

I would disagree with you on that. The KSU video was played in the stadium in conjunction with their rally/power towels a few years ago and has appearances by several football players, including Jordy Nelson. I can't speak to the MU video.

REHawk 7 years, 5 months ago

TT is on a solid roll, both on and off the court. Best of all news for 2012 Jayhawk Nation. Conner, keep your chin up. You have been cast in a very tough role. I've a feeling that you are a tough enough competitor to handle it. You will still secure some victories for this team as we sweep through the challenging half of the league schedule. Play with fire in your heart!

Tony Bandle 7 years, 5 months ago

Let us review:

1] I think being at #7 is an optimistic projection on the upcoming ranking.

2] This loss is my fault. I have a neon Kansas bar sign that is undefeated everytime I light it...forgot to light it Saturday, as I did the other three losses. :(

3] One of the traditions I cherish most at Allen is, no matter who, no matter why, no matter when, we never, never storm the court.

4] If you see one movie this year, go see "The Grey" with Liam Neeson.

5] Shouldn't Joe, Curtis and Danny speak up during the game a little more and help Bill with his blind spots?

6] Actually, the girls in the Mizzou video were pretty hot...the boys were not.

7] I just became a Texas Longhorn fan for about the next 14 hours!!

8] Looking at the photo above, obviously, there is no age limit for the camp.

9] Watching the NHL and NFL All-Star games yesterday, I think it would have been more entertaining if the football players had to play hockey and the hockey players had to play football. All we got was a flag football game and ice dancing!!!

10] And, finally, the Iowa State game illustrated the preseason Achilles heel of Kansas....lack of depth. Please enjoy the ride because, I fear the NCAA portion of the trip will be rather abbreviated.

Tony Bandle 7 years, 5 months ago

Sorrry...I meant the Bill Self era. However, I was at that game and those guys who stormed the court were booed unmercifully by all of the large majority of the crowd that stayed in their seats.

nuleafjhawk 7 years, 5 months ago

OakvilleJHawk -

Two things-

1) LEAVE THE DAM* LIGHT ON (I will send you a check to help with the
electric bill.

2) Hook 'em Horns!

Ben Kane 7 years, 5 months ago

we will take up a collection for the electricity to make sure it never goes out again.

Kye Clark 7 years, 5 months ago

5) You raise an interesting point that I never much thought of until now. I recall seeing Danny & Curtis occasionally talking to players, but you're right I don't know that I ever see them in Self's ear. Are there any particular "blind spots" to which you are referring?

10) I probably view the term "lack of depth" differently than what you are referring. When you say that, am I correct in assuming that you mean a thin bench? No viable reserves coming off the bench? We are not deep in that regard, but I actually don't think that is a big problem, so long as we stay healthy. Where I think we are "lacking depth" is that we don't have a reliable third scorer, so in that respect it extends to the starters. I think that is our true Achilles heel. Many are quick to point the finger at EJ, but it's as much on Jeff & Travis. Maybe more so on Travis, since we've seen him go off for 20+ before. I just wonder if he's bought so much into this "lock-down defender" label that he sees himself as glue and is content with that for now. We need him looking to score. If one of the other 3 starters can score with more consistency, the NCAA tournament trip might not be as abbreviated as you think.

RockChalk26 7 years, 5 months ago

2) You should put together an emergency contact list for that neon light. Just incase you aren't able to turn it on, call in a back up.

REHawk 7 years, 5 months ago

Twenty years from departure, Kansas players will look back with smiles at the highly complimentary courtstormings following their very few losses. Gotta cut opposing fans a bit of slack, because they are celebrating their team's having just knocked off a squad which represents the greatest collegiate basketball program in the history of the game. Rock Chalk!

REHawk 7 years, 5 months ago

Say, LJW, thanks for honoring my caps in that O MY! post.

theend 7 years, 5 months ago

To all of you whiners and complainers......First of all.....shut up. You same people would be the ones praising our players and saying how wonderful they are when we win.

Second......shut up and get off their backs.....stop complaining. Ok.....so the talent just isn't there this year. But being critical is so stupid.....it's like being upset that someone is too short or that they have brown eyes instead of blue.

These players do their best. They are good but not great. It is what it is.

Brak 7 years, 5 months ago

Damn, sounds like somebodys got a case of the Mondays. So shut up and stop complaining about other people complaining, it makes you look like a hypocrite.

theend 7 years, 5 months ago

True. You're right! I just get tired of the fair-weather stuff.

theend 7 years, 5 months ago

So we lost to ISU......so what? We have beaten up Big 12 teams for years and won so many Big 12 titles. That's great and all......but did it ever really get us anywhere??? Two national titles in the last 60 years???? Not so good..

Look at how many more talented KU teams choked in March after having huge winning percentages during the regular season.

Maybe we need to be more average going into March.....who knows. All I care about is national titles......they are the only thing that matters.

Tony Bandle 7 years, 5 months ago

Aw, c'mon..add a year and make it three :) Something tells me you're not much of an "enjoy the ride" kind of a guy. Too bad.

theend 7 years, 5 months ago

Yes and no......I actually can enjoy the ride just fine during the regular season. Because....as I said......the wins and losses dont matter to me .....national titles do. But you're right......I cant enjoy the ride in March.....especially when so many great KU teams have been tossed out early by weaker teams.

As for the ISU game......who cares.....couldn't care less......all that matter to me are national titles.

Tuskin 7 years, 5 months ago

Class, this is how you, too, can become bitter, old men. Set unreasonable expectations and don't allow anything else to satisfy you. Minimize the joys. Focus on the negatives. Know deep down that it's someone else's fault. Come to message boards and ask if it ever got us anywhere. Repeat until bitter, then remove from heat. Allow 10 minutes to cool before serving.

theend 7 years, 5 months ago

Who said anything about unrealistic expectations??? I know national titles are not easy to come by.....I would be more than happy with one every 10 years. That would be my goal. For Kansas....that's very possible. I'm also not bitter or old......I'm happy and 45. I don't focus on negatives. So....I guess you're happy beating Texas Tech and Oklahoma every year? That just makes your life?

Tuskin 7 years, 5 months ago

I like watching Kansas basketball. We have really, really good teams, individual players, and staff. I find their play exciting to watch.

Who doesn't like winning championships? But to say nothing else matters just plain sounds weird. That sounds like something a person would say if he doesn't actually enjoy watching the sport, just the glory of bragging rights.

Personally, I do not "expect" us to win a championship every 10 years. That's a very high bar. But I'll keep hoping for it to happen every year.

Glad to hear you're not bitter. Your words struck me that way, but I'm glad to be wrong.

lee3022 7 years, 5 months ago

The goals for every team must include a conference title. Those are the sweetest because they are truly earned. Especially this year when all teams play home and away against each other the crowning of the conference championship is sweet and a huge achievement.

The national title is part skill and part luck. Any team on any night can get hot. If that happens during the conference season you have 17 more games to establish your record. If that happens (and against us it most often does) in the NCAA tournament it is time to go home. It is not the essence of our season even though every year our goal is the NCAA championship. Single elimination tournaments are not the same as the NBA's best of seven game format. That tends to produce the better team. The NCAA does not.

theend 7 years, 5 months ago

Some tough road games coming up.....they could certainly lose as many as 8-10 games this year. But that will still get them into March.....probably a 6 or 7. Doubt they will win the Big 12 this year. It would be nice.....but not going to happen.

They could do well in March though......who knows?

bradynsdad 7 years, 5 months ago

Glad to see your thinking more with the brain as opposed to emotion like you were back in march. Season will always come and go and we will always have great players with winning seasons. UNC didn't even make the tournament two years ago. Do I think we will win the big 12 again? Yes. I also realize that not reading this board keeps me from getting so mad about our losses. If us losing to ISU gives them a sense of what we felt like when we won the national title then good for them. All basketball fans and for that matter any sport fans need to feel a sense of pride every once in a while. Kansas is about titles not individual wins. Bill is loading up in these next two classes and I will put my word on this, we will lose again in march but I bet self wins at least two more titles.

theend 7 years, 5 months ago

I agree with you.....except I'm doubtful they will win Big 12. Hopefully, I will eat crow on that. Titles and wins are great.....but essentially I onlt care about national titles......so as long as they win enough games to get into March....that's all I care about.

Didn't UCONN go 9-9 in Big East last year? Look what they did.

JayHok 7 years, 5 months ago

Here's a dunk widely considered to be one of the best of all-time at any level to take our minds off Saturday's loss. Great comments underneath. RCJ

nuleafjhawk 7 years, 5 months ago

"It was one game against a pretty good team that just came into the game with more fire and hustle."

THAT'S what ticked me off. KU should never have less fire or be out-hustled. I listened to the first few minutes of the game on the radio and the commentators mentioned several times how KU was just standing around looking tired or disinterested.

I guess if winning an 8th consecutive Conference Championship doesn't get their interest, not much will.

I'm not naive enough to think that we can or should win every game. But I want the team to hustle like they want to win every game.

jaybate 7 years, 5 months ago

This OU game is a good game to bet on. Take KU.

REHawk 7 years, 5 months ago

Yeah, I think I will lay money on the Jayhawks Wed. night.

REHawk 7 years, 5 months ago

Conner, don't get caught up in the grips of despair. You are a fighter. Find ways to control the raging blood pressure in game situations, and your practice-time accuracy will return. Chalmers always had envisioned hitting winning last second shots. You can do it, too.

REHawk 7 years, 5 months ago

I'd still like to see CT and EJ relying more on the pump fake...taking two steps inside the arc for a more accurate chance at two points and/or foul. Opponents are at the point of dismissing those two as lethal outside shooters in lieu of packing the lane and guarding T-Rob.

theend 7 years, 5 months ago

Some nice photos from the Chamberlain Clinic....what a great event!

Kye Clark 7 years, 5 months ago

The thing that is puzzling to me is I can't figure out why ISU was such a bad match-up for us. As I stated yesterday, they outplayed us for probably 65-70 of the 80 combined minutes between the two games. Why do they give us such trouble? I've watched the game from Saturday again, and can't figure it out. Obviously we missed some opportunities (TRob on the dunk attempt, the mis-fire on the lob to Withey), but I'm not talking about a handful of plays that could have turned the tide. Because even if we make those plays and win, it doesn't change the fact that they gave us trouble, and I don't know why. They didn't shoot the lights out in either game. They turned the ball over more than us each game. The free throw disparity in the second game is what I believe ultimately led to the loss, but again, they stayed with us both games. They're a good team, but one would think the talent of our starting five should have been enough to prevent that from happening for as much of the games as it did. It seems to be about rebounding, that was the common theme between both games, but why do they give us so much trouble in that regard? They aren't taller than us. The three point attempts for both teams are pretty close for each game, so no one should be quick to use the excuse "they shot a lot of 3s so that leads to long rebounds." I've always been of the mindset that rebounding is an attitude, that is as much about effort and force of will than anything else. I'm just wondering if it is as simple as our guys not wanting it, or if I'm missing something. I'm not some all-knowing basketball guru, so anyone with theories...I'm interested.

theend 7 years, 5 months ago

Yes! It is interesting how some teams don't match up well against others. I have no idea why. But it actually gives me hope for KU in March. Maybe we will be a team like ISU for others....who knows? I will say ISU is a pretty good team regardless.....so no shame in losing to them.

JayHok 7 years, 5 months ago

Maybe the fact that our shot blocker was asked to run around the three point line half the game chasing a 6'9" dude had something to do with it.

Kye Clark 7 years, 5 months ago

Thanks. A lot of that makes sense. I have noticed too that TRob is not given much defensive responsibilities to protect him from foul trouble.

The one thing I disagree with is explanation as it pertains to us. Yes we are not a good jump shooting team, but that's every game, and almost every team has been sending double teams to TRob. It doesn't explain why ISU gave us more fits than most teams.

Otherwise I can see where you're coming from. I think for me what it boils down to is our guards have to rebound better. We were killed on the boards, and I think we had maybe 4 rebounds come from guys other than TRob & Withey.

Kye Clark 7 years, 5 months ago

If it was a case of the "Hilton Magic" pulling that game out for the 'clones, if our guys didn't hold their poise, it makes me very nervous this Saturday against Misery. That whole building is going to be out for blood, I hope the taste we got in Ames last weekend prepared them enough for it. Funny how all the talk about our tough schedule and despite all we'd been through we weren't facing our first hostile environment until the end of January!

You're right about the fouls. Withey is still learning. And Wesley, although most are surely warranted, seems to get the reverse benefit of the doubt. His reputation as a fouling machine seems to earn him maybe an extra foul/game. And the fouling situation, just like the handful of missed opportunities I had mentioned earlier, can clearly be pointed to as specific reasons for the loss. I guess I was just looking for some kind of commonality between the two games that would explain why they gave us trouble. And with my suspicion being that it's the rebounding, wondering why we are able to outrebound teams like KSU & Baylor, yet they handled us on the boards. But like I said, it might not be any kind of scheme, might just be attitude; a lack of "want-to".

Tony Bandle 7 years, 5 months ago

Totally off topic but I know that many of us miss and fear the worst for "100" whose postings were always full of wit and wisdom, but has anybody heard or seen anything from kushaw?

His absence seems a tad odd for someone so prolific in sharing his ideas....next to Jaybate, of course.

If I missed you, kushaw, just post up and let me you're OK. Having spit in the eye of the Grim Reaper last year, I guess I'm a little more sensitive to mortality for all of us.

I think we're going to need every Jayhawk we can find come March!!

Kye Clark 7 years, 5 months ago

Fear not, he's around. He has a new user name "BigManU", but in parenthesis instead of saying "anonymous" it says "Chris Shaw". He was posting yesterday, and you've probably read him and just not noticed it was him.

jaybate 7 years, 5 months ago

"The Z Word or Shortening the Game Is Essential for Self and this KU Team"

Theonlythingthatexceedsyourbad admirably explored my idea for mixing in some zone, as a means of trying to keep our bigs around the basket in better rebounding position.

In doing so, he freed up my brain meat to think outside the box about how to get more out of our bench.

A forewarning: I'm going to use the Z word. I am going to mention zoning in the same sentence with Bill Self. I am going to break the ultimate taboo. :-)

We need to use the zone defense to shorten the length of the game, and keep our bigs near the basket, so that we are really ready to juice it up and go during the m2m stretches of the game.

The key assumption here is that the first five minutes see whistles. The middle ten is whistle swallowing time. The last five see the whistle back in use. Hence, you want to protect your best players from fouling by playing the first five minutes in a zone, with Trav and EF sitting on the bench and waiting for the middle ten when full scale war is allowed and "let 'em play" lets their athleticism go off to the races.

The starting line-up: TT, KY, Justin, TR, and Jeff.

When we play the 3-2 zone, we need to go long with a point guard and four bigs so as to eliminate the trey from getting us in a hole early. TT out front harassing reversal. KY and Justin on the wings blocking out the sky on the trey shooters. This turns them into advantages (in the zone) rather than just disadvantages in the m2m. And it buys Travis and EJ a 5 minute shorter game up front. TRob and Jeff are on the baseline boarding everything in sight, and blocking/altering any penetrations.

Whenever we play this zone, it lets us rest Travis and either EJ or Tyshawn. The object of the zone is to use it shorten both halves to 15 minutes, even 10 minutes if possible, so that our guys can spend the rest of the half in transition, playing balls to the walls. We would actually strangle teams defensively for the time this team was on the floor. And frankly, as good as Tyshawn is this year at drive and dish, it might be an effective offensive team getting lots of offensive rebounds and stick backs, and 3 point plays off penetration.

jaybate 7 years, 5 months ago

When this zone defensive team transitioned to offense, it would play drive and dish with the PG and Thomas and Jeff. All KY and Justin would do is set screens to shake the PG loose. Hard screens. Borderline moving screens. Which ever of KY and Justin did not set the screen would crash the glass so we went three strong and big to the glass. The guy that sets the screen would play a 6-8, or 6-9 safety to cover transition back. This would actually be a killer defense and offense. Tyshawn, or EJ, which ever was in, could shake and bake for the treys, when needed. But this is a smash mouth offense.

When it was time to rest Thomas and Jeff, a decision would be made whether to stay in zone, based on how the opponent was handling the zone, whether to stay zone, or go man to man. Whenever Thomas and Jeff sit, Travis and EJ are entering the game fresh and ready to turn up the D on the perimeter and help Justin and KY inside.

This scheme would squeeze 5 minutes at the start of each half from KY and Justin, plus at least two 2 minute stretches out on the floor on their own, for a total of 14 minutes a piece. More importantly, they would be only out on the floor as bigs playing m2m for 4 minutes a game, never 4 8-15 minutes, which just kills our defense and our offense.

This would cut Travis back to 30 minutes per game. And would let Self alternate 30 minute games between TT and EJ.

This would not significantly reduce the total time Thomas and Jeff be on the floor. But it would drastically reduce the minutes they had to play hedge and chase 20-25 feet from the basket and and so drastically increase the amount of time they were in position to control the glass.

jaybate 7 years, 5 months ago

Okay, but I just assumed he couldn't read. :-)

jaybate 7 years, 5 months ago

And it would accomplish all this without making us sharply more vulnerable to trey shooting, because Justin and KY, who are both 6-8 or longer, and who both can move exceptionally well for their size, are going to be very tough to shoot over playing the perimeter of the zone. And Tyshawn is not only a phenomenal on-ball defender on the point, but he is a great, great help defender who could help both Justin and KY with anyone that puts it on the deck against them.

Would Self ever consider resorting to so much zone, when traditionally he has been loath to use any at all?

In a normal season, not a chance.

But this is not a normal season and this is not a normal team.

It can be an incredibly good team. It has proven this several times. When juiced by the coach, it can crush very good teams like Baylor on good nights, beat good ones like KSU on so-so nights, and play teams like Duke close on cold nights.

There is a team here that could get hot and go far in the Madness.

But it has four severe problems.

  1. It hasn't got enough perimeter depth to keep its trey shooters legs fresh enough to shoot a good trey percentage.

  2. It hasn't got enough perimeter depth to keep the defensive heat on 40 mpg when the games come closer than a week apart.

  3. Its starting bigs can't control the boards when the offense pulls them away from the basket to play hedge and chase.

  4. Its back-up bigs can't effectively substitute without a huge fall off offensively and defensively.

Self has to find a better way to shorten games than what he is scheming now, so his starting five are playing 25-30 minute games, not 35-40 minute games.

Self has to get more out of KY and Justin on defense, than scheming them exclusively as 4/5 backups.

Zoning the first five minutes of each first half with TT, KY, Justin, Thomas and Jeff, plus zoning the first five minutes of each second half with EJ, KY, Justin, Thomas and Jeff, would in combination would almost achieve all of these objectives.

jaybate 7 years, 5 months ago

All Self would then have to do is find a way to squeeze another 2 minutes per half per KY, and the same for Justin, and the game is effectively reduced to a 30 minute game for all the perimeter players, and 36 minute game for Thomas and Jeff, but only having to hedge and chase for 31 minutes. And when needed, Conner could be inserted into the zone team, or into the m2m teams to try to further squeeze down Jeff, or Thomas' minutes.

What I am saying here is this: mixing zone and m2m should enable Thomas and Jeff to play more total minutes but on a reduced energy budget and it should let all the perimeter players cut their total minutes by about 5-10 minutes.

Wooden swore he would never recruit much and swore he would never resort to a zone press from 1949 until 1963. But from 1961-1963 Wooden sank from winning 20 games a season to three seasons trending downwards toward near .500. Wooden read the writing on the wall. He hired a former player of his named Jerry Norman, as his freshman team coach, because Norman offered to recruit and to teach his players a new zone press. Wooden didn't like the zone press, but when it worked with the freshman team, when it speeded teams up, and forced them to set up in half court farther from the basket, Wooden adapted and made it his trade mark.

Great coaches adapt, if they can find ways to fit it into their philosophy, rather than their strategy.

Self is a great coach. He's got a very limited, but potentially great team here. This is not unusual. Wooden had one in 1964, one with no one taller than 6-5. Great coaches recognize potentially great teams are rare, but come in all kinds of shapes and sizes. Great coaches are stubborn. It is part of what makes them great. They are stubborn about strategy, not philosophy. They go to their graves with the same philosophy. But sooner or later, over the course of their careers, they make nonlinear leaps about strategies. They do it because they want to win so bad they can taste it, so bad that they can do 180s, if they can find a way to rationalize the change consistent with their philosophies.

jaybate 7 years, 5 months ago

Self may be at one of these junctures. He let two opportunities slip away the last two years. He knows they don't come often and they don't always come as neatly packaged as the last two that slipped away.

For all their eccentricities and flaws, this group of players is playing well together, meshing together, complementing each other, even on bad nights. This group of players has three difference makers in TT, TRob and Jeff. It has two exceptionally good players in EJ and Travis that could be difference makers when needed. They fit together beautifully. But the subs aren't quite good enough to let them play 40 minutes of basketball. Self has known that from the beginning.

The way the team is currently schemed is to shorten the game to 30 minutes for the starters, but the subs are producing enough and so the starters are playing 35-40 minutes. Self has to find a way to turn 40 minute games into 30 minute games, or this fascinating, potentially great team, cannot get it done.

Whether Self does something like what I am suggesting, or comes up with one of his usual brilliant improvisations, he has got to shorten the games. Iowa State didn't beat KU. The game was 5 minutes too long, maybe 10.

This team can become a champion if Self and it can find a way to shorten games to 30 minutes, but not if not.

It can be done.

Al McGuires national champion at Marquette shortened games.

Jim Valvano's national champion at NC State shortened games.

Howard Porters's Villanova NC team shortened games.

It can be done.

It has to be.

(End Note: I have not been able to find supporting evidence yet, but my hunch is that Jerry Norman probably seized on the idea of a zone press in 1963-64, based on studying Ralph Miller's success with the zone press at various levels in the 50s and early 60s. And Miller had dusted the zone press off from a 1930 invention of it by Phog Allen and his staff, after they left it behind.

Jeeveshawk 7 years, 5 months ago

"Self has to find a way to turn 40 minute games into 30 minute games, or this fascinating, potentially great team, cannot get it done."

So the way we are playing we are not getting it done. We have only four losses againt what is easily the toughest schule in the country. We are once again atop the Big 12 and the only teams that are close are Baylor (who we smoked) and Mizzou (who we will smoke be 15-20, it may sound prepostorous but mark my words, it will happen).

We have impressive wins against -Georgetown -Ohio State -Baylor -Long Beach State -Iowa State -Kansas State

But I guess this probable #1 seed team is not getting it done..

jaybate 7 years, 5 months ago

Jeeves,

That is fair criticism and I will try to explain.

A D1 season is grueling. What works in preconference may not keep working in conference and so on.

Team play evolves. Opponents expose weaknesses in players and schemes. Evolve, or die.

I am saying that this team appears to be hitting a ceiling in this scheme given frequency of play increasing.

Self and staff have tried to get more out of the bench and hit a wall.

They've tried to make their bigs play hedge and chase and they just can't do it 3 times a week and rebound, too. Their perimeter players just can't go 36-40 mpg 3 times a week and guard the full 35 seconds.

Self will apparently either have to start taking some losses, if he stays the course, or he has to find ways to shorten the games.

Or so it seems to me.

But Self has pulled rabbits out of his hat before and could again.

Jeeveshawk 7 years, 5 months ago

"But Self has pulled rabbits out of his hat before and could again."

Ha! Thats kinda funny because you replied to me and my avatar is a rabbit.

But anyway basketball is not a game of survival of the fittest. It is true that if we have no weaknesses that a team will be much more successful, but we need to talk realistically. No team can be perfect and everyone will have some kind of weakness. Our depth does not seem to be what is causing our losses, but instead a lack of effort. Of course this may be a problem branching off of our mediocre bench, but it is highly curable, even without well polished subs.

We would be better if we could slow the game down. But it may be just as affective to murderously pounce on other teams weaknesses. That is how we manhandled Baylor. Their weakness is having a terrible coach, and Self has able to milk that and make it so we didn't have to shorten the game.

When we beat ISU at home we also used this tactic. Their weakness is lack of height inside. That is harder to attack with them because White is so damn strong. But Withey managed to get 7 game changing blocks. That could have well been a 10-14 point turnaround.

So as long as other teams have weaknesses, ours shouldn't prove fatal as long as we have a good coach.

Theonlythingthatexceedsyourbad 7 years, 5 months ago

I believe our depth problems don't lie with conditioning but rather if the starters aren't hitting then there aren't many behind them that have done it before. This year has certainly not been plagued by fouls that required bench relief, doesn't seem that way at least.

For guarding 35 seconds on the perimeter, that may have more to do with recognizing screens better as a team to work together to prevent dribble handoffs and pick and pops. I've conceded "let them drive" so long as to stop the three. I think sometimes you have to make a choice to give the player a half step in the lane in order to quell the three.

Starters can't win every game for you, that's too much to ask and everyone knows that doesn't constitute a good team. Our bench has played well at times and been a little spotty at others. Young, Wesley, Tharpe, Teahan, even Juneman and Lindsey. These guys can play and more than one or two will need big games if we want to win into the tourneys.

Nadir might still win a game or two for us.

jaybate 7 years, 5 months ago

Actually I look at D1 basketball exactly as a survival of the fittest game in which selection both within teams and among teams is occurring according to MUA constraints.

Natural selection of teams and players, not genomes.

manginodrh00lz 7 years, 5 months ago

And that's the Cliffs Notes version folks!

kellerman411 7 years, 5 months ago

Good god Bate, I didn't read any of that but..... good god Bate....

This little camp they held is really neat. It's cool that the guys are willing to use their position for some real good. Plus it sounds like it gave them a much needed mental break. It's gotta be nice to get away from all the pressure sometimes.

Now, on to business. We better pound those sorry @ss Misery Tigers so bad that they cancel that whole F-ing program Monday morning. I wish every MU fan nothing but misery. They make me sick. They burnt the F-ing town down with a smile on their face. Let's go shut their F-ing @ss up.

I will be there and I will be big, drunk and pissed off. I hope we win the game but I guarantee we'll win the fight after the game. RCJH.

Scott Smetana 7 years, 5 months ago

Anyone know the over/under on number of times Mizzery fans will boo at the refs next Saturday night?

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