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Sunday, January 29, 2012

Keegan

Road test exposes Kansas’ thin bench

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Podcast episode

Press Conferences & Post-Game Interviews

KU coach Bill Self

Kansas coach Bill Self talks to reporters following the Jayhawks' 72-64 loss to Iowa State on Jan. 28, 2012.

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Podcast episode

Press Conferences & Post-Game Interviews

Tyshawn Taylor and Thomas Robinson

KU players Tyshawn Taylor and Thomas Robinson talk to reporters following the Jayhawks' 72-64 loss to Iowa State on Jan. 28, 2012.

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KU vs. Iowa State

Box score

Illinois and Indiana combined for 153 points in a Big Ten game just weeks ago, and the 10 starters scored every one of those points.

TV timeouts every four minutes make a bench less crucial than it once was, and with even longer breaks in the NCAA Tournament, the value of reserves can be overrated.

Still, it sure is nice to have a quality bench when the need arises.

With personal fouls mounting and starters struggling to score in Hilton Coliseum, Kansas University’s basketball team needed a bailout from the guys who don’t get to hear their names announced to the crowd before the opening tip.

It didn’t happen, and KU suffered its first Big 12 loss, 72-64, to Iowa State, which closed the game with a 20-11 run in the last eight minutes, 10-5 in the final 2:18.

Bill Self distributed 29 minutes to his three chief reserves — guard Conner Teahan and forwards Kevin Young and Justin Wesley. In 29 minutes, They responded with five points, two rebounds, an assist and a turnover. They made two of 12 shots.

In the loss to Davidson in Sprint Center in December, the bench logged 48 minutes and contributed six points and 10 rebounds on 2-of-11 shooting. They had one assist and four turnovers in that one.

Duke? Scoreless in 30 minutes, no rebounds, no assists.

Detect a pattern anyone?

It’s not that the starters are responsible for all the season’s big victories. Young sparked the Jayhawks to a huge nonconference win against Ohio State. The game before that, Teahan caught fire and played a huge part in a victory against a tough Long Beach State squad.

Both of those games took place in Allen Fieldhouse, where the home crowd fueled the home team.

Typically, in basketball, the better, more experienced players display the least slippage on the road, the reserves the most. The road also is where a strong bench is most important.

Players get called for more fouls on the road than at home for a couple of reasons. One, fatigue sets in easier when the home crowd isn’t with them to pump them full of adrenaline. A tired basketball player doesn’t move his feet as well and doesn’t focus as well, two factors that lead to fouling. A second factor — or should it be first? — has to do with how referees call games. Everybody seeks approval, and even though officials try not to play favorites, they are human. Their innate desire to be liked kicks in, even if only on a subconscious level, and the close calls tend to go in favor of the home team more often than the visitors.

Fatigue and foul trouble make reserves needed more on the road, where they are less equipped to get the job done.

All that is a long way of stating that Saturday could prove to be just the beginning of rough times on the most challenging road stretch of the season. It started with Ames and — with home games mixed in — continues with trips to Columbia, Waco and Manhattan.

Asked the obvious question of whether he needs to get more from his bench, KU coach Bill Self gave the obvious answer.

“Uh, I think that would be affirmative,” Self said. “We’re not getting much at all, and we’re playing guys too many minutes. We’re not getting much from our bench at all right now.”

A better offensive than defensive player, Young had a rough day in Hilton, hitting just one of five shots and misfiring multiple mid-range jumpers.

“I’ve got to knock that down,” Young said. “I shoot 100 of those a day, so there’s no excuse why I can’t make that shot.”

He looks less than 100 percent comfortable on his new team after spending two seasons playing for Loyola Marymount.

“I wouldn’t say 100 percent,” Young said. “It takes time, but I’m getting there.”

Teahan has made six of 29 three-pointers in his past seven games.

Wesley has more personal fouls (52) than rebounds (44) or points (34).

Freshman Naadir Tharpe’s tendency toward the quick turnover has kept Self from including him in the rotation.

On most days and nights, the bench will perform better than it did in the past three losses, but how much better?

Comments

Chris Shaw 2 years, 6 months ago

“Uh, I think that would be affirmative,” Self said. “We’re not getting much at all, and we’re playing guys too many minutes. We’re not getting much from our bench at all right now.”

This is completely on Self IMO. I mean, he's got what he's got on the bench and it's his job to try and develop those guys and give them the necessary confidence to produce. He has given Teahan every opportunity to produce and he's not cutting it right now. Actually, it's draining on me to watch him play with zero emotion and the negative energy. Basketball is fun! It's the greatest game on the planet. You're playing for one of the best college basketball teams in the country........................enjoy it because before you know it............it's all over!

I'll get to back to Teahan in a minute, but how do you expect a guy (KY) to produce when he has gotten 14 minutes, 2 minutes, 3 minutes, 4 minutes, prior to this game? I mean, he had the same amount of minutes against Iowa State yesterday (9) as he's had in the previous 3 games combined. No wonder the kid went 1-5 from the field!

And Self, media, and others what to know why he shot 1-5 from the field yesterday? Show a kid confidence, allow him to make a few mistakes and allow him to produce in that role. I'm sorry, the KY situation is completely on Self. IMO, he needs to be dipping into Conner's minutes at the moment.

As for Conner, I wouldn't have a problem with him, but my main issue is the kid's body language on the court. He's feeling sorry for himself, not having fun, and isn't showing any emotion towards good or bad plays. You're a 5th year senior for crying out loud. You've been through it all and just because your shot isn't falling doesn't mean you take time off from your leadership duties no matter how minor or major they may be.

Conner may be 6-29 from 3 in his last 7 games, but he's 4-19 from 3 in his last 5 games. IMO, Conner has become a liability on offense because all he does is hang around and float around the 3 point line.

Prime Example: Jeff Withey caught a pass at the Free Throw line and surprisingly got two defenders up in the air with a pump fake. All Teahan had to do was cut to the basket from the corner and he would have had a layup. Instead, he just hung out in the corner on the 3 point line and Withey turned the ball over.

As for Wesley............you get what you get from Wesley, but I truly believe Self is mis-managing Teahan's, KY's, and Tharpe's bench minutes. Those 3 guys' confidence is completely wrecked at the moment. How do you build confidence of bench play if the coach doesn't show any confidence in them? I suggest finding a solution rather than pointing out the obvious from the initial quote.

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mojayhawk 2 years, 6 months ago

I completely disagree that Coach Self is mis-managing the bench minutes. He's giving these guys opportunity to play and improve. He doesn't bad mouth our players to the media either (i.e. Frank Martin), but just states the obvious facts. I have noticed that Coach Self verbally supports our players when they are going through a rough time. Long story short, I think Coach Self is showing all of the confidence in our bench players he possibly can. In normal years, these 3 guys wouldn't be put in the position of this much responsibility to the team. It's just the way it is this year.

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Chris Shaw 2 years, 6 months ago

What responsibility is Self giving on the bench other than Teahan? I commend Self for trying to weather the storm with Conner, but I can't remember the last time Conner hit a "Big Shot" during a game.

What confidence is there in KY when he gets 2, 3, and 4 minutes in 3 consecutive games? The answer is none and then Self expects him to produce and be efficient when his time is called in the 9 minutes he got yesterday? That is not being productive or efficent managing your bench as a coach.

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Kye Clark 2 years, 6 months ago

The last big shots from Connor came in the K-State game. When the kitties were making their push to come back, Connor hit two 3s when the offense was stagnant, and that helped right the ship and propelled us to hold on for the win. But the fact that I remember that doesn't change your point - that he has gone multiple games without making an impact.

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dylans 2 years, 6 months ago

Who do you want Self to play more: Tharpe who can't hold on to the ball for some reason; Wesley who fouls so fast the other team is in the double bonus with 8 minutes to go; Teahan who doesn't do anything with the ball or away from the ball - he just stands around waiting for the D to forget about him and jacks up threes constantly? Merv Lindsay? Heck, I wanna see him stick in Danny, but he just won't do it. When KU has a deep bench Bill doesn't give the stars enough playing time to know how to respond to big minutes in the tourney. When KU has a shallow bench Bill isn't giving enough minutes to the bench to develop the players. Tough to win with this crowd.

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NJHAWK 2 years, 6 months ago

I agree with BigManU. Another example is development (or lack of) of EJ. He is at least one year behind in development because he did not get on the court much as a freshman. Development factor includes emotional maturity to perform well on opponent's floor. KU players played scared yesterday. It reminded me of some of the losses in the NCAA tournament to mid-major schools.

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Ashwin Rao 2 years, 6 months ago

People (including the kids) need to take responsibilities for their own development. I am sick and tired (I have a teen age kid, so I know) of comments such as this. Kids who are on the bench, need to be "in the game" by visualizing themselves in it while on the bench... quite similar to how our military folks do before they go into war. We put a lot of emphasis on in-game experience, which is not always possible. The kids need to use the time that they are allotted in the game to fine-tune their mental picture and get better... so by the time you are supposed to be counted on, you are ready. Just like Tyler correctly challenged fans to "lace-up" if they can, Self would say... coach a D1 game if you can!

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Mike Bratisax 2 years, 6 months ago

And I'm sick and tired of comparing basketball to our military at war.

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Kye Clark 2 years, 6 months ago

Agree that Self has to some extent mis-managed KY. This has been the MO of Self for awhile now though, to not let kids play through mistakes; to have the quick hook. EJ, Travis, & Withey were all victims of this prior to this season. Self prioritizes the game at hand at the expense of the big picture. We'll never know the results of playing things the other way - if he had given KY more minutes against Texas & aTm, might we have lost one of those games? It's possible. Might it had made a difference against ISU? Also possible. However, I think he should definitely be getting more of the minutes previously given to Connor.

I do, however, agree somewhat with mojayhawk's comment that in normal years these guys would not be seeing the court. And I like that the short bench has forced Self to play the starters more. That he doesn't have the luxury of that quick hook with them, as the three previously mentioned (EJ, Travis, & Withey) need that court time to build their confidence. Like I said in the other article, this is a problem without a solution, or at least a very good one.

In response to something another poster somewhere has said, one thing I don't buy about having a short bench is that fatigue becomes a factor. I cover a local high school team, both the boys & girls, and the girls just finished a 3 games in 3 days tournament. The game yesterday was an absolute track meet. The team I cover pressed for most of the game, got up & down in transition, and like Self's team this coach plays primarily 6-7 players/game. After the game I asked the coach if he was at all surprised at his team's ability to play at that pace on the third day of the tournament. Emphatically, he said no. That he would never use that as an excuse, that these are young people who could probably play another game in 3 hours with no lingering effects from the game before, and that they are in excellent condition. Now college games are longer and more physically taxing, but they are also surely better conditioned than a mediocre high school basketball team. And last year UConn dispelled the myth that you cannot maintain energy over a long stretch of games, as they played a ridiculous amount of games over a short period of time and ultimately took home the prize.

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Hank Cross 2 years, 6 months ago

+1 Self's quick hook with Travis and EJ made it an illusion that KU had a deep bench last year. They both got the quick hook despite the fact that Brady and Tyrel had made the same mistakes and/or there were plenty of minutes in garbage time.

The only reason that I'm less critical of that this year is that I don't see anyone other than Young (and maybe Tharpe) who can be a game changer. (And that goes to your point.) Teahan remains at a walk-on level and Wesley has been less than impressive.

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Kye Clark 2 years, 6 months ago

Good point about Tharpe. HEM has pointed out (and I have agreed with) that the Tyshawn we see today is Self's creation. That he fostered the out-of-control, turnover-prone player by not often enough "nipping it in the bud", so perhaps with Tharpe this is a case of Self seeing the big picture and doing what is best for him long-term.

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Mike Bratisax 2 years, 6 months ago

I'm personally much more worried about our starters than the bench. Missed dunks, missed layups and 62% at the line and that's a recipe for defeat. And this is nothing new...when the pressure is on, we make too many mistakes. they resort to playing individually not as a team. Withey went from 2 fouls to 4 in a matter of minutes.. Not sure what was going on w/TRob but he seemed to hesitate around the rim yesterday. Well this game is over, time to get ready for OU.

As for the bench, I have the feeling Tharpe will transfer. With the new players coming in and Ben eligible, Tharpe won't see much time next year either.

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jhox 2 years, 6 months ago

BigManU, I agree with much of what you have to say. Self has been very quick to pull guys and not let them play through mistakes and develop confidence. Fatigue is clearly playing a role in how the starters are playing. We just look like we have dead legs. Actually, we looked like we had dead legs from the start yesterday. I wonder if we had one of those spirited all out walk throughs again yesterday? In the past we had the depth to get away with that sort of thing. Not so much this year.

Another thing I've noticed is that Thomas doesn't appear to be carrying as much mass as he did at the start of the season. I suppose that's understandable from all of the drain of practices and games, but I think the lack of depth is taking its toll on his body. Of course, it doesn't help that he's getting double and triple teamed constantly, and getting the crap beat out of him with no help from the officials. Four second half fouls against ISU yesterday, and the whole half Thomas is just getting beat to death. I've been an official and I tend to be pretty sympathetic to officials, but that second half was a travesty. I thought we maybe got a little more love from the refs than we deserved the first half, but they more than balanced it out with lop sided home court officiating the second half. Bill needs to start working the refs over for all of the hammering that Thomas is taking in the blocks.

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jhox 2 years, 6 months ago

Sorry about that guys. I have no idea how that happened. I've not had that happen before on here. When there is heavy traffic on here wierd things seem to happen.

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Jack Wilson 2 years, 6 months ago

When you hit "post comment" and it doesn't post immediately, don't click it again and again. Just wait. Then if it freezes, click off the site, then come back. Sometimes it's there. If not, then retry. But before you post, copy your post so you don't lose it. I charge no fee for this service.

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jhox 2 years, 6 months ago

BigManU, I agree with much of what you have to say. Self has been very quick to pull guys and not let them play through mistakes and develop confidence. Fatigue is clearly playing a role in how the starters are playing. We just look like we have dead legs. Actually, we looked like we had dead legs from the start yesterday. I wonder if we had one of those spirited all out walk throughs again yesterday? In the past we had the depth to get away with that sort of thing. Not so much this year.

Another thing I've noticed is that Thomas doesn't appear to be carrying as much mass as he did at the start of the season. I suppose that's understandable from all of the drain of practices and games, but I think the lack of depth is taking its toll on his body. Of course, it doesn't help that he's getting double and triple teamed constantly, and getting the crap beat out of him with no help from the officials. Four second half fouls against ISU yesterday, and the whole half Thomas is just getting beat to death. I've been an official and I tend to be pretty sympathetic to officials, but that second half was a travesty. I thought we maybe got a little more love from the refs than we deserved the first half, but they more than balanced it out with lop sided home court officiating the second half. Bill needs to start working the refs over for all of the hammering that Thomas is taking in the blocks.

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jhox 2 years, 6 months ago

BigManU, I agree with much of what you have to say. Self has been very quick to pull guys and not let them play through mistakes and develop confidence. Fatigue is clearly playing a role in how the starters are playing. We just look like we have dead legs. Actually, we looked like we had dead legs from the start yesterday. I wonder if we had one of those spirited all out walk throughs again yesterday? In the past we had the depth to get away with that sort of thing. Not so much this year.

Another thing I've noticed is that Thomas doesn't appear to be carrying as much mass as he did at the start of the season. I suppose that's understandable from all of the drain of practices and games, but I think the lack of depth is taking its toll on his body. Of course, it doesn't help that he's getting double and triple teamed constantly, and getting the crap beat out of him with no help from the officials. Four second half fouls against ISU yesterday, and the whole half Thomas is just getting beat to death. I've been an official and I tend to be pretty sympathetic to officials, but that second half was a travesty. I thought we maybe got a little more love from the refs than we deserved the first half, but they more than balanced it out with lop sided home court officiating the second half. Bill needs to start working the refs over for all of the hammering that Thomas is taking in the blocks.

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jhox 2 years, 6 months ago

BigManU, I agree with much of what you have to say. Self has been very quick to pull guys and not let them play through mistakes and develop confidence. Fatigue is clearly playing a role in how the starters are playing. We just look like we have dead legs. Actually, we looked like we had dead legs from the start yesterday. I wonder if we had one of those spirited all out walk throughs again yesterday? In the past we had the depth to get away with that sort of thing. Not so much this year.

Another thing I've noticed is that Thomas doesn't appear to be carrying as much mass as he did at the start of the season. I suppose that's understandable from all of the drain of practices and games, but I think the lack of depth is taking its toll on his body. Of course, it doesn't help that he's getting double and triple teamed constantly, and getting the crap beat out of him with no help from the officials. Four second half fouls against ISU yesterday, and the whole half Thomas is just getting beat to death. I've been an official and I tend to be pretty sympathetic to officials, but that second half was a travesty. I thought we maybe got a little more love from the refs than we deserved the first half, but they more than balanced it out with lop sided home court officiating the second half. Bill needs to start working the refs over for all of the hammering that Thomas is taking in the blocks.

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jhox 2 years, 6 months ago

BigManU, I agree with much of what you have to say. Self has been very quick to pull guys and not let them play through mistakes and develop confidence. Fatigue is clearly playing a role in how the starters are playing. We just look like we have dead legs. Actually, we looked like we had dead legs from the start yesterday. I wonder if we had one of those spirited all out walk throughs again yesterday? In the past we had the depth to get away with that sort of thing. Not so much this year.

Another thing I've noticed is that Thomas doesn't appear to be carrying as much mass as he did at the start of the season. I suppose that's understandable from all of the drain of practices and games, but I think the lack of depth is taking its toll on his body. Of course, it doesn't help that he's getting double and triple teamed constantly, and getting the crap beat out of him with no help from the officials. Four second half fouls against ISU yesterday, and the whole half Thomas is just getting beat to death. I've been an official and I tend to be pretty sympathetic to officials, but that second half was a travesty. I thought we maybe got a little more love from the refs than we deserved the first half, but they more than balanced it out with lop sided home court officiating the second half. Bill needs to start working the refs over for all of the hammering that Thomas is taking in the blocks.

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chriz 2 years, 6 months ago

"That's right, 'cause law don't go around here!"

"I heard you the first time, Ike."

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notjustbread 2 years, 6 months ago

It's actually 'Yeah..I heard you the first time'. He doesn't know Ike's name at that point yet. Once they leave, he asks Beahan 'who was that other idiot?' referring to Ike.

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Brianna Zaleski 2 years, 6 months ago

Jhox, Thanks for the quad post. I didn't think that drivle was worth reading one time, much less 4 times...

Shaw, Are you serious? What do you think we are trying to do here? We are trying to win bball games. If Self leaves the reserves on the court who aren't preforming just so their confidence can improve, we probably don't win aTm or ISU at home. So we are in the same position, from a W-L perspective, as we are now, or worse. It makes absolutely no sense to leave someone out there who is a liability just so they can get their confidence up so that they will not be a liability later. Its up to KY and Tehan to produce, not HCBS's job to stroke their ego! This is big time D-1 bball and if you can't get done what coach is asking, then he should get someone in there who he knows can get the job done. Coach's job is to beat the team on the schedule that day, and he has done a pretty swell job of that so far. Self is not one of those guys who is coaching for tomorrow, he wants to win today and will do what is necessary to get that done... Today! Your reasoning is absolutely absurd and you belong on the bench w/ that brick artist CT.

We were not going to win all of our league games, we knew that. We were in this game up to the end. That's a good thing. We just failed to convert some big buckets down the stretch (Tehan!!!), but that's going to happen and we have to accep it and leave it at that. Self is doing a damn good job with what he has around him this year and we just have to ride with him till the end this year

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Chris Shaw 2 years, 6 months ago

I agree Self is doing a good job and not a great job. He's mismanaging his bench.

And.........if you haven't been upset with the losses in the post-season the last two years than it's "Absurd" not to think about the future or tomorrow and try and get better.

You can still "Win" today and sacrifice some of the starters minutes in order to help build confidence from your bench personnel! That's the purpose of a leader and coach! That's their Job to get the most out of people! How do you know what the engine can handle if you're constantly in second gear?

Because of your post, unlike Self, I won't hold that against you and will allow you some more chances to prove yourself in a high pressure setting. If you were under Self....................your posting wouldn't make it off the bench.

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Kye Clark 2 years, 6 months ago

"If Self leaves the reserves on the court who aren't preforming just so their confidence can improve, we probably don't win aTm or ISU at home. So we are in the same position, from a W-L perspective, as we are now, or worse. It makes absolutely no sense to leave someone out there who is a liability just so they can get their confidence up so that they will not be a liability later."

Actually, that makes pretty good sense to me, for them to not be a liability later. As I said, there's no way to know how things would have played out if Self had used the reserves more in games past, if our W-L record would be the same, better, or worse. Let's say it's the same. Let's say we lose the Texas game, but win yesterday's contest. Same W-L record, but the net gain is that these bench guys are not, as you say, a liability later. They have been given confidence. They have gained valuable in-game experience. Developed chemistry with their teammates. How can you not follow that you made a completely illogical argument with that statement?

And what a lot of people are wanting is more from KY. We've already seen Connor. He has in fact been left out there, and isn't getting it done. His contributions have been so minimal that replacing him with KY couldn't have been much worse, if at all. Right now Self has no one that he knows they can get the job done, bench-wise. The difference is Connor has kept getting minutes, whereas KY has not. Who has more upside? For that matter, how does Tharpe not have more upside than Connor at this point?

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chriz 2 years, 6 months ago

“Uh, I think that would be affirmative,” Self said. “We’re not getting much at all, and we’re playing guys too many minutes. We’re not getting much from our bench at all right now.”

BigManU stole my thunder. I cant say much about Self's USE of his bench, but he has what he has because he, himself, was unproductive on the recruiting trail. I still can't figure out why we cant just get normal, eligible, talented recruits, but whatever. I will say that things seem to be looking up on the recruiting front, but we're seeing the results of poor recruiting from the previous 3-4 years. (And no, a one-and-done, regardless of how high he was ranked or how poorly he performed, does not make a good recruiting class.)

I will say, though, that I'm glad Self isn't letting these guys get away with poor play just because they're not good. He wasn't disrespectful to them or anything, and they'll improve if he stays on them.

And yeah, Teahan is most valuable when he hustles. He can get boards if he wants to. And it would be nice to see him pick up some fouls that way, too. I think Self needs to encourage him to err on the side of fouling.

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Chris Shaw 2 years, 6 months ago

We know Conner isn't performing..............how do you know KY, Wesley, and Tharpe aren't performing in their very.........I mean limited minutes they are getting?

I understand we aren't going to win all of our league games, but my point is that the bench was thin during our last 4 games previous to this game and KU got "W's" with zero production from the bench, but it was a concern then.

I'm bringing to the attention that people are questioning KY's 1-5 shooting yesterday, but how do you expect a guy to get confidence or find real production when his combined minutes in the 3 revious games equal the whopping 9 minutes he got yesterday.

Seriously, does Releford really need to play 40 minutes? I think not!

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Brianna Zaleski 2 years, 6 months ago

The bench was a concern from the get go Shaw. We knew that going in to the season. Just because there are butts in those chairs doesn't mean those butts necessarily belong on the court.

Did you see KY yesterday? He got blown by on defense numerous times and he was 1-5 shooting. Think I've seen enough. Wesley's stats provided in the article (more fouls than pt's, reb or assists) tell you all you need to know. And Tharpe is a TO machine who is likely to throw up a 3 w/ 30 second still on the shot clock. But those guys do need experience. Just not during a tight conference game on the road! I want my coach to have a quick hook in those situations. Do I really need to stroke Wesley's confidence in the middle of a 10-2 run being put on us in the 2nd half at Hilton Colusieum? I think not... BTW, I thought Releford was playing lights out D yesterday which is why he most certainly deserved all of his mins as opposed to that foul machine JW or KY who can't shuffle his feet on D. Self is in the right here, not you Shaw. Or is that you that has compiled an 84% winning at the University of Kansas? Self is a canidate for COY for Christ's sake, and you are taking to task his coaching?!?! Check urself

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Chris Shaw 2 years, 6 months ago

Question: Have you ever tried playing "Big Time" basketball after sitting the bench for 3 straight games and averaging 3 minutes per contest in those games?

What happens to your mindset? Do you even know what happens to your mindset?

Because of that mindset, you get some extended playing time and all of a sudden you're expected to produce?

BTW, I haven't relegated you to complete Bench duties yet. I'm still letting you learn from your growing pains and giving you an opportunity! Good thing Self isn't your coach!

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Chris Shaw 2 years, 6 months ago

Yes, you are indeed correct that a winning percentage of 84 is fantastic. Actually, it's best in the country over the last 5 years.

However, Self has admitted that he's not doing enough in the games that matter the most............NCAA Tournament games.

Go look at the UNI and VCU losses? How much has KU's 3 pt FG efficinency declined in those games? How much bench production has Self gotten in those elimination games? The numbers are staggering in the opposite direction of their regular season averages.

It doesn't matter if KU has McDonald's All Americans on the bench or whether or not he's got KY, CT, Tharpe, and Wesley on the bench. He's using all of his bench personell in the same manner and that is the frustrating part.

I was expecting some changes this season.............or at least seeing some things mixed up from the usual ways Self does things.

You are indeed correct that Self should be up for COY award because he's doing a great job with the starting 5. Not so much with his bench personel and that's regardless of who he has over there sitting by you in your warmups.

I'm not arguing the fact that Self can win ball games "Now" or win the Big 12 conference..............I'm arguing that I see the same repetitive behavior and game management that has gotten us knocked out of of the NCAA Tournament unexpectedly the last 2 years.

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Chris Shaw 2 years, 6 months ago

And.......if you think the starters averaging 35 minutes a game is a good thing...................you still haven't convinced me!

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Kye Clark 2 years, 6 months ago

The final bit of this comment is the lamest of all points of view. The "you don't know more than Coach Self so shut up" standpoint. First of all, it assumes that Coach Self is infallible, that he is God, that he makes no mistakes. It assumes no other approach to the game, even in minor details, than Coach Self's view could possibly work. No one is saying that they can do a better job than Coach Self. But it's like watching a game and seeing Tharpe turn it over...could we do better than Tharpe? Nope. Doesn't mean we don't recognize a mistake when we see one. That is not to say that doing things another way would yield different or better results. But it is well within the realm of reason to explore those hypothetical possibilities in a civilized discussion.

The other part of using the "Coach Self is better than you" rhetoric is that if you truly believe that, why bother taking time out of your life to come on the message boards? If all that matters to you is what Self says and does, why not just watch the games and interviews, and rest easy with your knowledge that everything is going according to plan.

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Brianna Zaleski 2 years, 6 months ago

Be that as it may, the fact remains, Coach Self IS better than you and an 84% winning track here at KU is EVIDENCE that he does know what he is doing. Is he right 100% of the time? Obviously not. But I'm pretty sure that his coaching philosophy hasn't changed a whole lot since he's been here, and isn't likely to change much while he is here. If he thinks a player doesn't belong on the floor and another does, than I have faith in the man. If you can't defend, you're not likely to see much floor time for Self. So Young, albeit talented and w/ an intriguing upside, can't manage to see much floor time on a very thin Kansas team. Chances are he's not that great of a player at this point. At least to be on a Self coached team.
You are in the minority on this one and you know it. Just because everybody disagrees w/ you, doesn't mean you must secretly be the smartest guy in the room, quite the contrary I assume.

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Kye Clark 2 years, 6 months ago

Actually I don't find myself to be in the minority. I find that most KU fans have something they can nit-pick at about Self's coaching philosophy. Look at the boards today. Granted that is not every KU fans, but it does give us a nice sample. I don't claim to be the smartest guy in the room, nor do I profess that I know more than Coach Self. But I think I am in the vast majority in this statement "But it is well within the realm of reason to explore those hypothetical possibilities in a civilized discussion."

It's OK. I'm wise to your act. You came on awhile back and threw a hissy fit because people weren't responding to your post. This is more of the same attention-seeking behavior. You know the best way to get some people to blindly agree with you, without having any opinion of their own, is to act like those who have any dissenting opinion are in opposition with Coach Self. I'm honestly surprised you didn't resort to the tried-and-true method of sarcastically calling people with criticism "fans"

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Brianna Zaleski 2 years, 6 months ago

Ahh yes, I was right, not the smartest guy in the room. Just a classless d!psh!t. Instead of debate my (and 3/4 of the posters on here today) superior arguments, just claim I'm doing it as some attention seeking measure. Nope. I just speak up when I see a flawed argument such as you and Shaw's. Not everyone should just blindly fall in line w/ everthing you say, ict, just because you submit long posts and make the occasional reasoned post. Most likely it is just some fancy production that is nothing more than a lot of BS and an attempt to lure us into a name calling match w/ you. Well, mission accomplished jerk. Keep off these boards, you give Wichita a bad name

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Kye Clark 2 years, 6 months ago

Right...I'm classless. This is the second time in as many interactions that you have resorted to these sophomoric tactics and name calling, and then having the audacity to claim it's my fault. That it was all me setting you up to do so. Hilarious. Ask the legends of this board - Jaybate, Shaw, Ralster, Oakville, HEM - they'll tell you I am more than willing to engage in reasonable debate. It's just that you lack the capacity for reason. In your initial post to Shaw and then in subsequent post to me you couldn't help yourself but resort to trying to belittle the other poster (Shaw with the "check urself" and to me with the "quite the contrary" remark about my intelligence). Like I said, it's because you lack the capacity to engage in a debate. no wonder no one wanted to respond to you, and now you don't even post your own thoughts, you just respond to others.

I have been on this site longer than you, and have far more cred, so if you don't like it I believe it is you who can take a hike. Or just proceed to throw more hissy fits, we know you're good at that.

Thanks for showing everyone (again) your true colors.

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Brianna Zaleski 2 years, 6 months ago

Trust me, I've been on this board just as long as you, if not longer. I've just gotten the hook by LJW a couple of times for sophmoric name calling. I admit it, yeah, its just my style for better or worse. But that doesn't take away from the fact that I know what I'm talking about when it comes to KU hoops. Like most posters on here. I've been watching KU games, in depth, for 20 years. I'm not some recent undergrad who is just familiar w' KU because that is where they just graduated from.
This is the last I'll say on this issue: you are dead wrong. Your arrogance leads you to believe that you know more than coach Self, and hell, you just might, but I'm putting my faith in the man that my tax and donation dollars go to. Not some board rat who thinks he should be given respect because of tenure! Now that's hilarious. Keep ranting about how you think Self needs to change his coaching style, I don't think its going to change anytime soon. But hey, just give him a ring and tell him what an accomplished poster you are on kusports.com and tell him to consult HEM as a reference for you and I'm sure he would love to hear you opinions of his inferior coaching... Until next time

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Kye Clark 2 years, 6 months ago

Honestly, I don't know where you get this stuff. First of all, do you not see the irony in calling people classless but then admitting that you are in fact so disrespectful that you have "gotten the hook by LJW a couple of times for sophmoric name calling."? At least chose your insults better, because this just displays a clear lack of intelligence and the inability to view yourself objectively.

Secondly, I don't know where you get that I think I know more than HCBS, or that I think I deserve respect because of tenure. I repeatedly say that I don't know more than him, and that my opinions are just that of a passionate fan. Sorry if you need a disclaimer to that effect before every post, but more to the point, you seem to be making an inaccurate correlation between me saying I'd like to see something different, and you interpreting that as me saying "I know what's best." As for thinking I deserve respect because of tenure, where are you getting that. The only thing I said regarding my time here was in response to you telling me to stay off these boards, as if you were some authority on who should post here. The fact that the site has deemed you not worthy of posting here and given you the boot a couple of times seems to back me up.

Lastly, as I said in one of my earlier posts to you, the whole "you don't know more than Self" argument adds nothing. If you have learned nothing else from this site, it should be that this is not a site to come here and just sit around in a circle-jerk singing nothing but praise for coach Self. That would be boring. Now make no mistake, there's plenty of room for praising him, just not as the fall-back argument against a different point of view. If you don't think KY should be seeing minutes over Connor, explain why. But saying "because Coach Self says so" is like saying that you don't have a reasonable opposition argument. If you disagree, that's fine. But try and (respectfully) explain why YOU don't think what I'm saying is right. Not just "I know what I'm talking about when it comes to KU hoops". If you've been a fan of the Jayhawks as long as you say you have, you are old enough to know that this is not a reasonable way to express your opinions. Aside from the trolls, we're all supposed to be KU fans here right? How about not walking like some 'roided out UFC fan looking for a fight cuz someone looks at you funny. That approach isn't gonna get you far, here or anywhere else.

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Kye Clark 2 years, 6 months ago

Also saw you refer to another fan's post as "drivel". Classy.

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EverRisingHawk 2 years, 6 months ago

I generally err on the side of self, but not - as icthawkfan316 suggests - out of blind deference to his every decision. No one but Self has as clear a window into what makes a team tick. He sees them EVERYDAY in practice. He eats meals with them, flies to away games with them, handles their disciplinary issues, watches their tapes, etc. We, on the other hand, see them for forty minutes twice a week (if that). I am not saying that unquestioned devotion is a virtue, but it is a practicality given how little we know. (And, given Self's sublime record, it is a pretty safe bet) We simply don't see what Self sees. That's not intended to blast anyone who wants to voice an opinion. But it is to say that an opinion without a solid foundation often equates to little more than pi$$ing in the wind.

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Steve Gantz 2 years, 6 months ago

Billy Tubbs played a 6 man rotation in 88 all the way to his loss against us. I'm not saying that's the way it should be done, but it can work.

This seems to be Self's MO over the past years. By this time of the year 7-8 guys are playing and the others are hoping for mop up duty only. Agree with all who are wondering why Teahan is out there. If he can't stretch the defense, his role is extremely limited. It turns it into a 4 against 5 when we're on offense.

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dylans 2 years, 6 months ago

In all honesty Teahan is probably only on the floor to give a guard a breather without turning the ball over. If Tharpe could hold onto the ball he would be getting some of those minutes. With the play of the reserve guards its a travesty that McLemore is unable to take all of those minutes. I would be happier with that 6 man rotation than the current 8 man rotation.

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Gregor Southard 2 years, 6 months ago

You guys are right about Self, I mean, he's only won 84 percent of his games at KU. If only he knew how to manage his teams!

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Jack Wilson 2 years, 6 months ago

That adds nothing .. oh, that's right, he's perfect and beyond reproach. Great post.

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chriz 2 years, 6 months ago

+1 HEM. I wonder if the KU Sports people can automatically delete a post that discourages voicing our opinions...this is one of the most annoying types of posts. Heaven forbid we have a different opinion that Coach Self's, right?

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dylans 2 years, 6 months ago

It really sucks having a good coach so the couch coaches can pick apart every perceived mistake. You play to win the game! If KY could play defense he would play more. Since his guy scores at will his scoring ability is a net negative.

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Jayhawk1958 2 years, 6 months ago

That's insane. This is probably Self's BEST coaching job ever. Just look at what he has to work with:

He had to develop a former walk-on to play significant minutes Loses the top two bigs in the country to early entrance to the NBA Has 4 starters that were backups last year that didn't log a lot of minutes and now have to learn how to play as starters with a lot of minutes, and play them well because of the lack of depth. (Refer to Traylor and McElmore who were ineligble) You had Tyshawn who was a big question mark going into the season as he has been a underachiever throughout his playing career. Two top recruits that were projected to play a lot of minutes in the rotation and were declared inelgible.

What else proof do you need?

And he is 17-4 with all of these negatives! If you told me before the season that we would be 17-4 at this time, I would have said to quit smoking that crack pipe.

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David Brown 2 years, 6 months ago

Agreed. Self can only use the players he has. 17-4 is still a stellar record. Look at who we lost to. Davidson is the only real "oops". Duke was close until the last few possessions. Kentucky spanked us, ISU was better at home. Given the composition of our team, I think the players/coach's have performed well. Tough games ahead, so more losses may come.

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Ashwin Rao 2 years, 6 months ago

I have a feeling that something is bothering Thomas Robinson the last two games (TX & ISU). We need for him to come back otherwise it will be a long year for us. He needs to "own" the area near the post so our other players are not pressured. TT is doing a fantastic job, but without Robinson, we are not that good. We need for both to click all the way to our championship.

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flyingfinn 2 years, 6 months ago

Totally agree. He can't shoot the ball for Conner nor play defence for Young.

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kesmithstl1 2 years, 6 months ago

Coach Self is a great coach, buy yes, he can be criticized. I however, do not attend practices, film sessions, pre-game meals, or meet with these guys on a daily basis like he does. Self isn't confident in his bench right now. Yes, it's his job to develop it, but maybe he is getting all he can from some of these guys. Remember, Teahan barely saw the court last year. Tharpe, KY, and Wesley are all newcomers. Maybe they don't understand quite yet what it takes to win a confernence game on the road in the Big XII.

Look, it's one conference loss. This team is not as good as the teams KU has had in the past, but then again, neither is the league. I stilll like KU's chances to win the conference. Remember, Mizzou doesn't have a bench either, and our first 5 is better than theirs. Baylor, in my opinion, is too soft to win.

The bench guys will learn from this. Self is a great leader, and knows what it takes to win. He will do so. Let's calm down a bit Shaw. You're better than that too.

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Chris Shaw 2 years, 6 months ago

kesmithstl1: There is nothing to calm down about. It's observations, stats, and analysis. It's all it is! If someone is taking it to a different level than that...........I'm not sure what they are interpreting. I haven't said anything that is out of line.

I'm trying to get people to understand that it's not just about an 84 percent winning pct or another Big 12 conference Championship. That's great and I wouldn't be bringing any of this up unless Coach Self didn't bring attention to some changes that need to take place after last season's loss.

My only point is that I'm starting to see the same old path as we hunker down in the middle of conference play. I've also seen too many trends in the stats that concern me about this team.

I've been a pretty big advocate of this squad this year praising when it's just and also voicing concerns when needed. Nothing wrong with that IMO! That's how I show my fanhood good or bad! Take it how you want it! I stand by everything I post.

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kesmithstl1 2 years, 6 months ago

I appreciate your response. I understand what you are saying.

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Jayhawk1958 2 years, 6 months ago

And you can't argue that this might be one of his most untalented teams.

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Jack Wilson 2 years, 6 months ago

My humble opinion is that this has nothing to do with Self's game management. You can't just play 5 guys.

This has to do with 1) Self's recruiting misses, 2) Self misjudging Selby/Markieff's return, and 3) Self (apparently) misjudging Tharpe.

Connor Teahan shouldn't even be on the court. Justin Wesley shouldn't even be on the court. Neither are rotation players for a D-1 school like KU. Lamar .. yes. Wichita St .. maybe. Towson .. surely. Not KU. Don't confuse that as being an insult to either player. Every player has their ceiling. Kevin Young may be a different story, but I question whether the young man has ever been coached (before this season), to move his feet on defense.

First, recruiting failures. Self never intended, desired, or wanted either of these guys actually playing -- Teahan/Wesley. His actions prove it. Look at who he recruited. Trevor Lacey, Josiah Turner, Angelo Chol, etc. Look who he got .. Braedon Anderson, Jamari Traylor, Ben McLemore, Naadir Tharpe. At a minimum, if McLemore is eligible .. Teahan gets minimized. And if Traylor is eligible, same for Wesley. Teahan and Wesley are not just good enough .. small stretches they might have flashes, sure .. but exposed over the entire season just as the headlines says .. absolutely. Teahan and Wesley are in over their heads. At most, Teahan should be the ninth guy .. perhaps a 5 minute guy solely because of the myth that he is a three point specialist. Maybe. Wesley should not be on the court.

Second, Self has said that he was surprised by Selby and Kieff turning pro. This ties into the first item. The excuse for the late recruiting chaos of last spring where we were left with Anderson and Traylor down low, and then had to get back in on Lacey (whom Self reportedly .. honestly .. told Lacey late last winter that he would be playing behind Selby). We can debate whether he should have been surprised -- that leads to a tangent discussion. But at the least, by his own words, he was expecting both to return which would make Teahan/Wesley pure benchwarmers.

Third, Self has apparently misjudged Tharpe. Clearly, he was expecting him to contribute this season. In classic quick hook Self style, Tharpe got his pocket picked in 5 seconds vs. Texas A&M and found the pine never to be seen again. No rope. But Tharpe being competent would make Teahan less of a necessity. Apparently, Tharpe ain't competent.

Has Self mismanaged his bench? It doesn't look like it. The only argument is the same argument every season on a younger player .. play the guy, let him get through his growing pains, let him make his mistakes, and perhaps you have a serviceable player (Tharpe). Self won't do it. Perhaps there is no cause for him to do it. I'm not making that argument.

Does he need more from his bench? Sure. It just isn't there. Achilles' heels are foul trouble and when some starters aren't playing as well as expected (no talent for a little energy injection).

It is what it is.

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Chris Shaw 2 years, 6 months ago

HEM: You have to get over it man! You can't change that right now! Self has the team he has so I disagree with you! Yes, there have been recruiting misses but we can't change that with this team.

What can happen though is changed behavior from everybody top to bottom on this team. Those are the things we can change and try to solve. You're going down a dead end road.

Self is clearly mismanaging his bench because he's done it regardless whether he's had this unit or 4 or 5 star recruits (Selby, EJ, T-Rob, Kieff, Withey, Releford, Little) sitting over there.

Tharpe has gotten less minutes than EJ ever got, but is going down the exact same road of falling back in in shell. Is this conicidence or just random? This is just consistentcy in the way Self does things and I don't necessarily agree with it, but I'm not the coach either.

Again, HEM, you can keep talking about what KU doesn't have on their roster, but their are options available to be utilized for Self on this squad, however, limited you may thing they may be.

The question is how to maximize those opportunities and you can't expect a kid (KY) to maximize anything if he isn't allowed to have "Growing Pains".

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Jack Wilson 2 years, 6 months ago

If you've read any of my posts over the past few seasons, you know I agree with you on player development.

I was just attempting to get at the problem this season and as in related to yesterday. No real talent on the bench. We shouldn't be in this position. Look, I think/thought we should utilize KY more. But he isn't major answer. Even with Tharpe and KY, that's two .. that's it. Then what. So that was more the point.

If you look back at my posts from earlier this season, I was on the bandwagon of playing KY and Tharpe to get then ready for February.

http://www2.kusports.com/news/2011/nov/26/travis-relefords-defense-never-rests/#c1853182

One link to a post or two.

And I know you were too.

The term I used was "learning under fire." There is a reason that is said. If you play guys, they can mature. One of the biggest disagreements I've had with Self, and one that I think is one of his biggest flaws. Other coaches .. many great ones .. disagree with Self's approach.

But my comment on mismanagement in my post was more related to yesterday's game and why he really didn't have options. I don't think mismanaged the bench yesterday from a "micro" perspective; but I agree on his general approach on a "macro" level.

I am in your camp here.

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FoCoCoHawk 2 years, 6 months ago

Roy Williams once said "In order to have depth you have to play depth."

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Chris Shaw 2 years, 6 months ago

HEM: Sometimes I hate posts and texts. I wish you could hear my tone as I explain it. Yes, I agree for the most part we share some of the same stances and agree on most things recruiting.

My only point was that we understand and know first hand they Self missed on some recruits this past year and not having McLemore and Traylor has certainly hurt.

With that said, I was trying to come across in a non threatening manner that there is nothing we can do about the current situation...........and that is our personnel on the bench for this 2011-2012 KU team.

Look, I know KY isn't the ultimate answer, but Self has got to find a way to find a "Role" for some of these guys off the bench. I'm not liking Teahan's role and I think we get Wesley's role on this team. I'm still trying to figure out how Self is going to implement two players in KY and Tharpe whom have lost complete confidence in their game.

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Hank Cross 2 years, 6 months ago

Agree. Teahan and Wesley don't contribute much - in fact Teahan is fast becoming a negative.

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KansasComet 2 years, 6 months ago

That was an excellent read, thanks! Connor Teahan should not even be on the court? I have to agree with you on that one. I do however, feel there is a role for him on the team. That is when we are comfortably ahead. He shoots a lot better, when we are in the lead. I don't think Self expected to lose both twins and Selby. Again, thanks and I am in agreement with you.

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Clarence Haynes 2 years, 6 months ago

I got the sense that the guards didn't buy into the game plan as it related to offensive rebounding. ISU killed us on the boards mainly because they were well positioned to get rebounds off of ISU's missed three pointers. I saw both Christopher and McGhee getting rebounds and with the athleticism of our guards, that should not have been the case. We get 3 to 5 of those rebounds, we win the game regardless of our bench play (or the lack thereof). We better be ready for Mizzou because it could very well be the same situation.

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Andy Tweedy 2 years, 6 months ago

If he had let those bench players play through their mistakes, we would have already lost at least two more close games that we ultimately won. And then this board would have been full of people criticizing Self for "mismanaging his bench" in a different fashion. We basically won the Texas game by one possession and I think Self was right to not trust one possession to a freshman who still has a lot of growing to do. Seven straight conference titles, a national championship and numerous McDonald's All-Americans and post after post about all the things coach can't do. I think I'm going to stick to football articles for a while, at least that team gave people reason to complain!

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kusully 2 years, 6 months ago

This is what happens when you have a head coach who year after year after year can elevate the play of his team and ALWAYS raise expectations of a very, if not the most fortunate fan base in D1. I personally had ALL four of our losses highlighted as concerns preseason. I still have four more highlights including OSU. Do I think we will lose all four? No but a lesser coach with a better team would raise my concern vs Self. Sit back and enjoy the ride. It's gonna be a good one. Rock Chalk

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741hawk 2 years, 6 months ago

Wish more of us thought like this. "Enjoy the ride."

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08Jayhawk 2 years, 6 months ago

It is what it is, but I'm surprised how deflated we looked from the start. Especially since Iowa State put up a fight in AFH, we knew how good they can be. Everyone can focus on the bench, which I will touch on in a second, but we will not win road games against quality competition without Releford or Johnson contributing more. In the last five games Releford is averaging 8 points and Johnson 9. That just isn't good enough from these two guys. We need the Releford who dropped 28 on Oklahoma and 16 on Kstate. We need the EJ who put up 23 on UCLA and 15 on Ohio State. Until we get more consistent scoring from these two, we will struggle to win road games.

Regarding the bench, Teahan needs to get less minutes until he proves he can hit the 3 more consistently. He is worthless otherwise. Give Tharpe more minutes and build up his confidence. The biggest issue I see with Tharpe is getting the ball stripped bringing it up the court. To alleviate this issue, have another guard stay back and help him or just have another guard bring it up. Tharpe is much more athletic than Teahan, is quicker, can play better defense and needs the experience/confidence. Tharpe will be no better next year unless he plays more this year. Young, averaging 5 minutes the last 4 games, no wonder he's inconsistent. That's on Self to play him more. Wesley is what he is.

Bad but not surprising loss. I'll take this loss for a win @ Mizzou next weekend. Still in first place. RCJH.

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machinegun 2 years, 6 months ago

Lighten up. Have some fun. I really enjoy this team because there is no way you can take them for granted. They have to work together in order to win. They have to take care of business one game at a time.

Dickie V said that this was the least talented of Coach Self's teams. Did we lose the game because of a lack of talent? No--we lost the game due to our fouls and their free throws. Lopsided officiating? No--we lost the game due to our defense and their rebounding.

Conner can score, Kevin can score, Justin can score, Naadir can score...they know what is expected of them. They play for one of the best coaches in college basketball. They just need to spit in the eye of the tiger.

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Clarence Haynes 2 years, 6 months ago

Yep and you have to get the most out of what you have!

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Marc Frey 2 years, 6 months ago

I thought at the begining of the season that the Big 12 Regular season Champiion would have 4 or 5 loses. I have not changed from that thought. We all know we have a thin bench. Some days we will see it. We loss at ISU, not the first time not the last. We have tought venues coming up adjust and mov e on. If KY was doing well at practice, he would play more.

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rockchalkchalkin23 2 years, 6 months ago

"Detect a pattern anyone?"

It's becoming easy to tell when Self is going to be out coached. It's much harder to tell if the players can just do what their told because they will win if they play well, as they are told, against a great coach.

So simple in theory and argument because it's a very efficient system. Not so simple when an opposing coach comes with the confidence he can win by having a game plan built to disrupt the system, and knowing that Self doesn't believe his system has weaknesses. When a loss happens, you Self lovers always say it's because the players didn't play well and Self knows best. The players believe he knows best and they do what their told for the most part, but sometimes they are going to play bad naturally. When opposing coaches deny our strengths and encourage our weaknesses, why can't you admit Self was out coached? The players are trying to do what they know.

Guys come to KU when it is their time. Regardless of the circumstances of how they got here or who is here, objectively the condition of the roster is on the coach. Missed recruits, ineligibility, and early departures to the NBA happens to the other major colleges too and is not the current players fault. Neither is lack of development. It is a deflection to what is being exposed. Self looks like a psychological master, as some have referenced him, because he recruits these very good players, sits them on the bench, uses the "quick hook" when they make a mistake, and crashes their confidence. He says play how I want you to play. They now fear making a mistake because they will get ripped for not being perfect. I think he would be better fit as a drill instructor in the military. When they do "develop" and play well, people say look at what Self has done with them, forgetting how good they were when they got here. In the midst of Reed and Morningstar being used to win games, Self also wasted a year of EJ's eligibility. Self uses his most talented and experienced players as a crutch. Can't remember the analyst/ ex ball player who said this last year, but sees Self as having 'smoke and mirrors'. Does he not know what he's talking about, because he doesn't have an 84% winning record at KU?

There is always going to be criticism when players play bad or worse, a loss. You 'blind love' Self lovers justify his great coaching ability by his win % and conference titles. I guess that's what you get when that's your goal. I prefer national titles over conference titles. Is that okay to ask for? This is the University of Kansas isn't it? It's been a while since I've been to AFH, but do we hang elite 8 banners? Can our goal be a national championship when we have a team loaded with talent and depth? Couldn't Self use the goal of a national championship to raise the expectations of his players and get more out of them overall?

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Kye Clark 2 years, 6 months ago

You raise a fair point, although your delivery is a bit off. I would think that the vast majority of KU fans would be "Self lovers". I think Self is a great coach, but I think the point you're getting at is what others have said (myself included), and that he is not infallible. He is not perfect. But we should all respect that he, overall, does a great job. I prefer National Championships too. To Self's credit, he has brought us one already. Roy didn't. Calisleazy doesn't have one. No one else in the Big 12 has one. I am expecting more to come, but in all fairness this is not one of those years.

I have no problem in pointing out what I perceive as flaws in Coach Self, be that in his style of play, his philosophy on recruiting, player development, use of the bench, etc. That being said, it's not simply a case of "the players are trying to do what they know", and thus any loss is squarely on the coach. Players are not robots in a video game blindly doing whatever Self commands them to do. Players can be coached for years to box out, but sometimes they fail to do so. They can be coached to move their feet on defense, to go over the top of screens and not under them, to provide help defense when necessary, etc. Doesn't mean that in the flow of the game they execute flawlessly. The point is, both players & coaches have to share responsibility for a team's shortcomings. A coaches job is to put his players in the best possible position to win. To install habits and a scheme. Once out there, it's on the players to execute.

You say Self was out-coached. Hoiberg certainly has had his team playing well against Self in both meetings. But let's look at yesterday's game - what was the difference in the game? Rebounding & free throws. ISU out-rebounded KU 34-19. Certainly we can agree that Coach Self most likely teaches his players to box out, to go after boards with tenacity...right? So who's fault is the rebounding disparity? The free throw difference was 10-16 for KU to 25-34 for ISU. Even if KU shoots their lower percentage, if they shot the same amount of free throws, 34, then they make 21. That's 11 more points, and with those 11 points KU wins. Or conversely, if ISU shot their percentage but only had 16 attempts, that would have led to 11.76 points for them. Round it up to 12, that's still 13 points less than KU, also resulting in a KU win. Do you think Self coaches the kids to foul? To reach rather than move their feet? Certainly not. And we know that Coach Self preaches an "inside-out" approach to the offense; to get higher percentage shots by getting the ball inside first, and there are invariably more fouls called on shots put up in the post as opposed to jump shots. So whose fault is it that we shot too many jump shots?

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Kye Clark 2 years, 6 months ago

(cont.) Now maybe there are some strategic things Self could have changed and told his players to do, and IF they carried out those assignments maybe we rebound better or shoot more free throws and/or foul ISU less. My point is that, to me, it is not a simple case of Self being out-coached. I will agree that Self does not willingly make changes to his game-plan, mostly because he believes his system gives his team the best chance to win. We saw that in the UNI loss, his unwillingness to press until it was too late. Some fans have asked to see a zone on occasion, but Self is a die-hard man-to-man coach. I personally wouldn't be opposed to him showing a little more flexibility, but I don't know that any amount of flexibility would have compensated for the rebounding and free throw margins yesterday.

To your question "Does he not know what he's talking about, because he doesn't have an 84% winning record at KU?" I would say that until you can find the actual quote and name of the person who said it, that the statement on your part lacks credibility.

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Mike Kendall 2 years, 6 months ago

The numbers that are glaring to me are----

1) The KU bench scoring five points and shooting 2 of 12 shots--that's 16%, by the way.

2) Teahan has made six of 29 shots the last seven games--that's 21%, if you were wondering.

Hope these numbers can improve soon, because the Sooners are coming to Larryville as hot as their red uni's.

One game at a time, Jayhawks. Don't look ahead. Get the Sooners!

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SuperheatedRecords 2 years, 6 months ago

Bench Teahan. He isnt driving, he isnt cutting he isnt playing defense and he turns it over. Anyone can throw up a three and he isnt even making them. He is a liability. Tharpe just jacks up shots with tons of time and turns it over, he isnt strong with the ball. He shot us out of the game..

You have to keep EJ in just, just tell him to drive instead of jacking up threes.

Kevin Young has the most upside and Wesley at least plays defense. Plus KY has had some great passes. In my opinion, we need to go deeper on the bench and expore other talent.

as for a seventh man, I see merv lindsey as someone who can contribute. He is 6'7 and looks like he might be able to score. Give that kid 15 min one game and see what he can do.

K Young is sixth man, Merv is seventh.

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cajayfan 2 years, 6 months ago

Beginning of the season, I thought 8 losses. Now, I think seven. I would like them out of the limelight for a bit, so it is not so thrilling to beat us. Every team gets up for us. We now neeed to start getting up for every team. Cause frankly, we're not the best out there this year.

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bville_hawk 2 years, 6 months ago

Did we play any zone yesterday? Seems like it might have been useful to 1) protect Jeff and Thomas from fouls, and 2) as a counter to their isolating Royce White and letting him go one-on-one.

As a general rule I am a firm believer in man-to-man defense but the zone does have some utility. It's always worth a try, some teams have a difficult time attacking a zone especially if it's just put on for a couple possessions here and there.

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Ben Kane 2 years, 6 months ago

i love coach Self but i have been disappointed in the past that he hasn't used a press or a zone at certain times. however, i do believe that he knows what he's doing more than me and I have the utmost faith in him as our coach.

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Scott Smetana 2 years, 6 months ago

Yes, people do care about regular season games. You not interested in beating MIzzou next Saturday? What no one cares about is your posts calling Bill Self incapable and a choker.

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Joseph Kuebel 2 years, 6 months ago

Yea, cuz regular season games doesn't affect the regular season record... Good try, buddy. F = fail, in case that doesn't make sense to you either.

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REHawk 2 years, 6 months ago

I, for one, certainly do care about league wins! Those conference titles are gold; anything more...just more gold. Bill Self's dilemma in the pre-league portion of the season was to try to mold a cohesive unit out of Tyshawn and 4 previous bench players. At that juncture, Tyshawn was not maintaining the focus which we recently have witnessed. Part of that was because the starting unit was so raw and out of tune; part of it, Tyshawn being Tyshawn. Self hadn't the luxury of allowing newcomers to develop; although some of us urged him to play Tharpe and Kevin, even at the expense of possible non-conference losses. However, we had to prepare for Kentucky, Duke, Georgetown, Ohio State, teams which might have blown us off the Div. I map and damaged chances for successful future recruiting, not to mention Jayhawk reputation. Ergo, newcomers got very limited minutes to develop. I was a blatant Naadir Tharpe proponent, almost hurling Bud bottles at the TV screen when he was not inserted, or was quickly yanked. But his subsequent turnovers and poor judgment regarding shooting and the time clock seems to justify Bill Self's lack of confidence in him...altho perhaps the kid is now entering games in a mode of shellshock, knowing that he is walking a gangplank. Whatever, we are now at a stage wherein the bench is almost a nonfactor. Lingering injury to a starter, and it will get ugly. But 17-4? Wins vs. Ohio State, Georgetown, Baylor, and a near win vs. Duke? A 7-1 league record, to date, given the cards dealt us? A very successful season, so far. Most posters predicted that our 3 or 4 probable league losses would at least tie for the title. Shakily, we are still on course. I hope to see T-Rob's spirits zoom back to full smiles. This has been a tough ten days for him. Rock Chalk!

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yates33333 2 years, 6 months ago

So we got beat! The main question is whether this says something about future games on the road against the top teams of the Big 12 or whether Iowa State just beat us in Hilton. The test will come soon and will no doubt determine where KU ends up in the Big 12 and how it gets seeded in the NCAA tournament. I suspect a 4 or 5 seed. I hope for a 2 or 3 seed. I think a 1 seed is no longer possible.

We really do lack of bench. Teahan's play does hurt, as does Johnson's. But as the old adage goes, you play with the hand you a dealt.

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dgaskill 2 years, 6 months ago

And the reason we have a thin bench is the NCAA committee shafting that KU got the last couple of years. We have two guys waiting till next year that could really contribute! They are sitting because........"They went to too many schools" ?

Why can't KU shoot the basket ball mid season? It was like that even when Roy was coach. Perhaps it's injuries and Ku starts facing better 'D' as the year goes on.

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Michael Sillman 2 years, 6 months ago

Self is doing a great job overall but I think he can be legitimately criticized for the bench development. As I posted a couple weeks ago Self went for sure wins rather than play Tharpe, Young, and Wesley. That is his prerogative as coach.

As far as Teahan, Self has no choice. You must have a 3 point shooter to open it up for Robinson and Withey. Connor is it but he is going thru a tough stretch. I think his defense is adequate to spell Taylor and Johnson. At least his shot is soft and has a chance. Johnson is putting up some real bricks

I actually really enjoy this team and look forward to the rest of the season since the outcome is a total mystery.

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danno1313 2 years, 6 months ago

Young, Connor and Wesley are awful. This team only has 2 legit starters. Tyshawn and T Rob. Elijah is okay at times as is Travis and Withey. Those guys barely see the court at Duke, UK and UNC. We need 5 star guys every year and the Reed. Morningstar guys to compliment them now and then. I see at last 3 more loses in the conf. I didnt have high expectations anyway, but it is KANSAS!

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jaybate 2 years, 6 months ago

"Its Going to Get Hard and Every Man's Going to Have to Shoulder a Rifle Before Its Done"

A number of fans here should not apply for duty as captains of ships, leaders of platoons, CEOs of troubled corporations, or even troop leaders for the Scouts. :-)

In an off game, badly out rebounded, and victimized by asymmetric foul calling favoring the home team, KU lost on the road by only 6 to a solid team with a very good big man with a very good coach.

Put another way, Iowa State caught KU on a bad day in their crib, with the refs homing, and even then could not blow KU out.

Based on the above, some fans are sounding the klaxon for abandon ship?

Good lord, what would these fans have done on Guadalcanal?

KU is, in a very metaphorical way, on The Canal. We have been all along, people. I drew this analogy way back in preseason.

Things have been going our way for longer than expected, but, as Self said so aptly of the coming stretch of games, "things are going to get hard."

When Self uses the word "hard," an ordinary person may substitute "a fight for team survival that it is not guarantied of surviving," or "anyone who wants to quit the mission, do it now, because from here on out there is no turning back."

KU has made the very best of things so far, had some luck, had some guys play much better than expected, toughed through some slumps, but listen up; that did not mean we were magically lifted from the Canal to VJ day, or even to the heady late days of island hopping across the Pacific.

Board rats that focus on what our bench didn't give us the last few games and then talk about benching Teahan, or benching KY are not facing the reality of the situation.

We are on a big dengue fever and malaria infested island jungle and there is no ability to withdraw and start over. We are what we are and where we are. And calling us short handed and then saying bench Teahan, or KY, are not solving any more problems than shooting a buddy in the back, because he froze in the first couple of skirmishes after fairing okay early on.

Work the problem, people. Use the pieces you've been given. Clean them. Oil them. Recalibrate their sites. Position them better. Dig in deeper. Wishing for more pieces is not going to keep this platoon from being cut to shreds, because the ships sailed for cover. There aren't going to be any more resupplies. Getting more out of what we have is the only way. Anything weapon that breaks, fix it. Or use it for a club. But don't throw it away, for chrisssakes, because you never know when we are going to be down to hand to hand.

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jaybate 2 years, 6 months ago

Self is already starting. There was a reason Self called on virgin Jordan Jeunneman late each half, only to have the half end, or to have him step on the floor for just a few seconds the second half. I could be wrong, but I suspect Jordan was being mentally prepared to begin to see some action against OU.

Jordan can shoot in practice; that's why he made the team as a walk on. He can carry a rifle. He's not as good as Teahan, when Teahan is on, and not in a confused funk, but Conner is not on, and he is in a confused funk.

Self has to take some pressure off Conner by letting him watch Jordan play some of his minutes. It could be ugly, but he's got to do, unless Conner turns it around the next minutes he plays.

Conner has apparently slipped into the trap of thinking he was the only guy that Self could turn to. It made him press too hard, try too hard, think too much. Conner is going down the Brady Morningstar drain that lead to one game where Brady, the three year rotation player, was playing mop up minutes. It was shock therapy. it worked.

Conner is headed the same place and Self is going to take him there, if he can afford to vs. OU. Self is going to dose Conner with a sense of having his minutes sharply cut, unless he comes out with trey gun blazing and accurate.

Jordan! Oh, no, not Jordan, the weak kneed, bench-Teahan choir is already gasping between serial infarcts.

Oh, yes! Jordan J. I said at the end of last season and over the summer that Jordan could well be seeing some significant minutes this season. Jordan got a few looks early and showed little, but did little harm. Subsequently, developmental minutes were not given him. Instead, they were dished out to the new boots--Naadir and KY and Justin to bring them along ASAP.

No doubt the thinking went, if they could perform, with their physical abilities, there would be no need to resort to Jordan.

But Naadir circled the event horizon, then black holed.

KY showed nothing, then a lot vs. Ohio State sans Sullinger, then a few so-sos, then up and down most recently.

Along the way, Justin's graph went steadily up, then the last four weeks, his fouling habituated, and his modest confidence eroded and Self began to play KY more and more despite KY's increasingly up and down play. KY can score. Justin has not been able to. So despite Justin's further advanced, but foul-a-minute defense, KY keeps edging up the PT graph in hopes of getting bench points.

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Kye Clark 2 years, 6 months ago

Well in the first half, Jeunneman was put in for Tyshawn, with about 2 seconds left after Tyshawn sunk his second free throw, in order to make absolutely sure Tyshawn didn't involve himself in some freak play that would have resulted in his third foul. There was nothing, in that instance, that we should be reading into as Self getting ready to give him minutes.

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jaybate 2 years, 6 months ago

ict,

You may be right on this and I may be wrong.

But if Self had wanted to do only what you say, he could have had Naadir peel down.

This was a message to Naadir and Jordan.

Naadir, I don't respect what you've been giving in practice this week.

Jordan, start getting used to peeling down pal, because your dream is about to come true in some game soon.

This late second peel down of a never used sub instead of a potential rotation player, like Naadir, is as old as the hills in basketball coaching.

If you are going to have to ask a never used sub to step into some deep water, as part of a psychological ploy to break some rotation players out of their slumps, you don't want to give the sub a wake-up call a game or so before hand. You don't want the sub, or the rest of the team, thinking "Holy cow, why is coach calling Jordan, he never calls Jordan," and freezing up from the lack of precedent.

All I am saying is I have seen it done before and Self is probably starting to feel a bit like Mark Knopfler in Dire Straits looking for some for some studio musicians to record a good song the band can't quite handle by itself. :-)

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jaybate 2 years, 6 months ago

Erratum: make that "you do want to give the sub a wake-up call..."

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jaybate 2 years, 6 months ago

Of course, KY is the logical guy to go to play some 3, but Self needs him at the 4, and KY shows no signs yet of being able to consistently carry the water at one position, much less two.

So: Self has to buy KY another two games, or so, as the first backup inside, before Self can even think about asking him to backup the perimeter, also.

Hence, Jordan.

Jordan is likely going to get a shot, because Conner and his confidence are circling the drain. Conner isn't going to be benched instantly; that would be condemning the team to being overrun immediately. But when he makes a mistake, Self is going to bring Jordan for a few minutes, to get the starter the short blow he needs, and get Conner out of his own head. If Jordan dings a trey, lack of height and speed and all, Jordan is going to buy a few more minutes. Then the starter comes back, then Conner is coming back in the next time an extra trey gun is needed. Any mistake by Conner, though, and Jordan enters immediately.

There is going to be preying in fox holes and its not just going to be the devout Jordan, but every man carries a rifle from now on, because the starters are wearing down, as they and Self knew would eventually happen. From the beginning, the strategy has been to steal as many wins as possible before exhaustion set in. Get to 17-3, preferably 18-2 with a win over Davidson, and then start taking some losses in this grueling ten game stretch of Saturday-Wednesday-Saturday games and Saturday-Monday games.

But back to Jordan.

The idea is not to turn Jordan into our number one back up, though anything is possible under the coming XTreme Circumstances on the Canal. The idea is to bring some semblance of order back to Conner's spirit, to truncate his sense that he is the last man, to get him to stop thinking and start competing for minutes. This brought Brady out of his funk in short order. It is a reality check any player needs occasionally.

The question that needs clarifying for some is: why is Conner, who seemed to be able to do a serviceable back up job early, seemingly circling the drain now?

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jaybate 2 years, 6 months ago

The answer seems relatively straight forward to me and it is not that he is lousy. Conner is being asked to more than he has ever tried to do on a basketball court. The problem is that on this team, Conner is being asked basically to back-up the 3, the 2, and the 4, when the team goes short, which it has to do sometimes, not just the 3. Even Brady wasn't asked to do that. The last guy that Self asked to do that was Brandon Rush!!!

Now do you get why Conner is struggling so much as exhaustion and the fear it brings sets in entering February?

Did anyone notice that our starting 3, Travis Releford played 40 minutes against Iowa State, and Travis maybe still in a boot?

Travis is swinging 2/3. Conner is swinging 2/3/4. Travis, miraculously, is holding up, despite the injury.

Conner, and this is no criticism, just a statement of fact, has cracked a little. Lots of people crack. But the ones with character--the ones on a team fighting to stay alive--those players scratch and claw to find a way to put it back together with the help of their leader and their teammates. I believe Conner is already doing this. And will never give up.

I believe he has the right stuff. I believe he is fighting for his basketball life here and it could get worse before it gets better. Playing multiple positions on a team with a 1000 page play book is a great challenge for any glue man. But playing multiple positions and being expected to be the come-and-give-a-spark trey dinger is apparently very hard on shooting concentration.

To state some facts, rather than excuses, every game Conner has to prepare to guard 3 positions and about six players, plus he has to learn the new wrinkles Self is throwing in for each game and each opponent at each position. There are several players that could not do it at all, even for one game.

Conner has blown a small neural gasket. You can see it on his face, when he comes off the floor. He is battling confusion, not physical ineptitude, or bad shooting mechanics. On the floor, he is thinking, not reacting. And its late January and he's more tired and sore than he's ever been. So are TRob, Travis and EJ. But they've got a lot more athletic ability to work with. And the only one of them being asked to stand out their and launch trinities as regularly Conner, is EJ, and he's been struggling right along with Conner.

Notice that of the two players--Conner and EJ--Self tried to take the pressure off EJ first, Self backed EJ down to only three treys versus ISU. EJ responded well, making 2 of 3. It was Conner that was forced to take six--to keep shooting and missing when he was not hot.

Make no mistake; that was calculated on Self's part.

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jaybate 2 years, 6 months ago

Self knew his man power and its contributions, and he knew EJ was more important to get re-rigged first. He triaged Conner. Self must also have believed that of the two players, at the stages of their careers, that the fifth year senior might also have a slightly better chance of recovering from being forced to keep shooting and missing despite fatigue, and fear, and cascading errors in the rest of his game.

Most of us cannot imagine how stressful it would to be playing big minutes your first starting season in D1, and to be having your coaches and teammates looking to you, expecting you to carry the load, and not being able to get it done.

Imagine what Thomas Robinson and Jeff Withey felt like as the game wound toward the end the second half and their coaches had told them at half time that they had to get on the glass, and they had given it their all, and they teammates had been watching them, and waiting for them to take back control of the back boards and Thomas and Jeff knowing that they had completely failed to do so.

It must be as excruciating as it must be exhilarating to succeed in whatever task the team needs.

But bad rebounding doesn't stick out to fans nearly as much as guys shooting and clanking from down town. Bad rebounding is kind of invisible to the casual eye. It doesn't jump out till you look at the stats.

Self decided to withdraw EJ from the psychological hazards of massive shooting failures he had been enduring at .288 made. He had to. He could not afford to lose EJ's defensive game. Fatique makes cowards of us all, but extended missing exiles us East of Basketball Eden, to the land of doubtful Nod.

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jaybate 2 years, 6 months ago

So: it was Conner's turn to feel the savage effects of being forced to keep shooting, even when you are already in a slump you cannot yet get out of. Conner went 1 for 6 and looked bad doing it. He saw them clank. He saw his teammates eyes. He saw his coaches eyes. Of the two players that could be asked to take six treys and miss 5, Self chose Conner against ISU. The next game it could be EJ again. Everyone wants to be the Top Gun. Everyone imagines for years on end of being the guy who makes it rain from outside to win the game. No one out on the play ground role plays missing five of six, while already mired in a long slump late in a season when they are already stretching the envelope of their physical and psychological endurance. And no one has a clue of what it is like, until they actually do it. And no one but another Top Gun knows what it feels like to have "the job" of missing.

And consider that Conner has never played a full season before, so he has never had opposing coaches study him like the CIA profiling a dictator targeted for regime change. Each game they are finding new flaws. This happens to each first year starter. EJ's shooting slump and relative offensive ineffectiveness until ISU, no doubt has to do with the same kind of flaw finding and struggle-to-fix-its. Conner and EJ are both having to alter their games from game to game to fix weaknesses opposing coaches keep exposing on both ends of the floor.

So: the object here is not to throw in the sponge on Conner, or EJ, or anyone else on this team, including Naadir, for this season.

Naadir absolutely will get thrown to the dogs again and he better realize that. Its coming, as sure as death and taxes and bad situation comedies.

The object is to find bailing wire and band aids that buy time for each first year starter, up to and including Thomas Robinson, to try to find fixes to their flaws exposed by other coaches, and to coax the various first year rotation players, like Conner, to come out the other sides of slumps, no matter how deep and long.

This is much harder than last year, because Self has fewer experienced players to draw on and talent falls off faster among subs.

But the difficult comes easy. The impossible takes a little longer.

There is no option to bench anyone playing significant minutes now.

There is no option to having to throw Naadir to the dogs from time to time.

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jaybate 2 years, 6 months ago

Now is the time where everyone has to do whatever they can, no matter how awkward, no matter how many problems may occur, no matter how hopeless it looks at times.

Supplies are thin.

Man power dwindles.

And the injuries have not really even begun to crop up yet--not the ones that make players miss games yet. Some soon will.

"Things are going to get hard."--Bill Self

You better believe it.

The troops are exhausted. Several are in slumps. People are playing injured that we probably don't even know about.

And yet the real battle is only starting.

Its going to get hand to hand.

The opponents know our weaknesses now. They sense we are vulnerable now. We were bloodied in Ames. The sharks circle.

Every hand will be called on to shoulder a rifle eventually.

When the going gets tough, the tough get going.

Sempre fi.

Rock Chalk!

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Chris Shaw 2 years, 6 months ago

This is pretty much on par although very much more descriptive with the pacific island hoping ideas.

You have noticed what I have noticed in regards to CT. He isn't having fun out there! It's the greatest basketball program, under the greatest coach, playing the greatest sport..........................have some fun and enjoy the ride.

With that said, it's Self's responsibility to help shoulder some of that responsbility off of Teahan IMO. I don't think I'm asking too much in this department. Some kids need help in the "Pressure" department. There is nothing wrong with that, but let's change up some of the minutes and rotations to see if we can help some of these kids out. Good stuff Jaybate!

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Ben Kane 2 years, 6 months ago

i still wouldn't have minded Self throwing a zone out there for a few tries.

like i said earlier, Conner needs to figure this out because we have no other option.

I don't believe JJ is really an option, the one time he was coming in before half was if TT made the free throw so he could be subbed out and avoid another foul.

times aren't hard right now, they are just harder than they were. hard would be losing a starter to injury (please no) and being forced to use our bench even more. Fact is, Conner has to figure this out.

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Mike Kendall 2 years, 6 months ago

Jaybate---

Very good points and analysis. Never get tired of your posts {when I have time to read them}.

Ha---just messing with cha!

Rock Chalk back at ya.

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KULA 2 years, 6 months ago

Interesting to see some of my sentiments of the past couple years reinforced on this board--that Self wasted opportunities (of which he had many, considering his average margin of victory the past couple years) to develop his bench (EJ, Withey, Travis, etc,) and build their confidence in game situations. There's no substitute real game experience.

Here's a little more food for thought: Anyone else wonder what kind of contribution Royce Woolridge could be making this year? And who put the bug in his ear that there simply wasn't going to be any playing time for the next couple years after Ben Mac declared? I know I'd sure take the son of an NBA star who averaged 30 pts/game in HS coming off my bench over a walk-on.

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Chris Shaw 2 years, 6 months ago

Don't you think Royce would be getting some sig. playing time this year? It's very interesting indeed! I have an idea of what happened, but it would only be a guess.

I think it was a numbers game, but the "Numbers" were all there over the summer when Royce made his decision and then.....................the "Numbers" weren't there.

It's unfortuante because I'm sure Royce probably thinks he could probably be providing some valuable minutes for this squad this year.

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KULA 2 years, 6 months ago

What we do know that Royce didn't do was take Bill's advice to redshirt his freshman year. Because he felt he could compete for playing time against the likes of EJ, Josh, Brady & Tyrel. So, no lack of confidence there--which only makes me doubt that he decided on his own that he couldn't compete for playing time with B Mac coming in. A high school star who wanted to play for Kansas so bad that he committed as a junior with minimal recruiting, and all of the sudden, he decides he's not good enough to play for Kansas...kinda fishy. But you know how Bill doesn't like those confident players and spends a couple years pounding into their heads, (with a regrettable amount of success) that they're not good enough. Example--aside from a couple of awesome games, do EJ and Travis look like confident offensive players?

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AsadZ 2 years, 6 months ago

Royce wanted immediate PT and Self told him which made sense that he will be playing behind Selby, TT and EJ. Self had alreday recruited Naadir and Ben was in the mix so Royce did not get a good feeling for the minutes and decided to leave.

At that time Self did not think that Selby would go. Selby's departure messed things up for HCBS although I'd imagine that most fans are not losing any sleep over it. However program would have been so much better off if Self knew about Selby's departure.

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Chris Shaw 2 years, 6 months ago

For the record, this is what I believe:

1) Coach Self is doing a fantastic job and I don't disagree with any of the posters above that he shouldn't be up for COY with the talent and roster he has on this team. IMO, at this point of the season.............he should probably get it. It also doesn't mean we as fans can't critique or analyze different components of this squad to make them better.

2) I think Self's minutes for the starters is increasing at an alarming rate

3) I think Self's bench minutes are decreasing at alarming rate

4) 2 and 3 need to be managed differently

5) CT is in a slump-My suggestion is that he needs to have a little more and realize how fun the game of basketball is. He's putting too much pressure on himself as Jaybate suggests and IMO Coach Self needs to help shoulder, hide, or take some of that pressure off of Teahan. Have fun Teahan!

6) KY's minutes are so up and down I truly believe it's taking a toll on his mindset. He's saying all the right things in the media which shows his good intentions, but Self is trying to find some consistency from him. IMO, I just think it's hard to find consistency in 2, 3, and 4 minutes in consecutive games.

7) Recruiting is down.............doesn't help that McLemore and Traylor aren't playing.......This........we know! Let's figure out how to deal with the guys that are currently playing and producing for this squad.

That's all I got for the moment!

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Kye Clark 2 years, 6 months ago

1) completely agree!

2, 3, 4, & 5) I actually have no problems with the starters playing the minutes they are getting. Tons of players every year play these amounts of minutes. They are the stars on their team, and there is no reason to bring them out of the game. In our case this year, we have 5 players head and shoulders above the rest, so it's easy to see who should get the minutes - as many minutes as possible. We just have been spoiled with an over-abundance of talent on the bench for so many years that we are unaccustomed to seeing the starters play this many minutes.

For me the whole thing, most years, is a blurry line. I'm all in favor of developing the bench - getting guys game experience, building confidence, establishing chemistry with teammates, etc. At the same time, I like that Self does not have the luxury of the quick hook this year. I think players will function better when allowed to play through their mistakes without looking to the scorers table expecting to come out every time they make a mistake, especially players who have not had as much experience or are stepping into larger roles.

This year is different, because the options on the bench are considerably less appealing than in years past. I still think they need some minutes, but I think the players that need to be in there can get the minutes they need with just the time already allocated to the reserves. KY is currently averaging 10 min/game. Connor about 21 min/game. Flip those two, and I think you're set. KY can play the 3, and that's all we really need to substitute for our 3 starting perimeter players. I'd be in favor of seeing Tharpe's minutes increase as well, but it is not imperative. The time for him to get his feet wet was against the cupcakes and lessor foes. But he didn't, and that time has passed. IMO, he still isn't going to start next year as I believe EJ will be our starting PG, but with a year in the system he should probably be seasoned enough for a back-up role of maybe 10-15 min/game next year.

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Kye Clark 2 years, 6 months ago

(cont.)

Of course this strategy - playing the starters as many minutes as they can take, subbing KY in on the perimeter as much as possible - is contingent upon us not suffering a major injury (or something else that causes a player to miss multiple games such as a suspension). If that occurs, then there will be cries about how Self should have developed our bench more. How he should have been giving Naadir minutes all along. Or Merv Lindsay. Or whatever. I just think you roll the dice that an injury doesn't happen, because if it does, I don't think any amount of playing time given to Naadir or anyone else would have been enough to save our season. Honestly, if Tyshawn rolls an ankle and is out for 5 games, regardless of how many minutes Naadir had gotten previously...would it really have made a difference? Our bench players were never going to progress enough over the course of a season to adequately replace any of the starters. And none of them are going to be expected to fill major roles next year beyond that of Naadir stepping into a back-up role, so long-term considerations aren't a factor. So honestly...play the starters as much as you can, it would just be my wish for KY to see more of Connor's minutes, and I think that will indeed help his consistency.

7) Agree. No one else is feeling sorry for us not having BMac or Jamari or any of the recruits we missed out on, so we can't afford to either.

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kranny 2 years, 6 months ago

Move KY to the 2 or 3, let him handle the ball and shoot the 3. He doesn't have the meat to post up.

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REHawk 2 years, 6 months ago

jaybate, a fabulous post. Metaphorically powerful.

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Momanfan2015 2 years, 6 months ago

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vMfqo... One of the most pathetic things I have seen in a good while.

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KULA 2 years, 6 months ago

Wow, that was pathetic. Is mizzou actually a college? Do they have any kind of television or film or video or music courses? That looked like a high school production.

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yates33333 2 years, 6 months ago

For some damn reason I can't put this after jaybate's comments, but once again he is solid and right on. (P.S., this is not an arse kiss job. I haven't the foggiest about who he is.)

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Rock_Chalk_NYC 2 years, 6 months ago

Keegan is dead on.

That said, lets regroup from the loss. Good to see KY putting up 100 J's a day. We need our bench to be more productive. (Captain Obvious, I know)

We'll be fired up to be at Mizzery Saturday. KSU also... that leaves Baylor on the road... ok, tough one. We take 1 or 2 of those 3 and hold court at home and conference champion banner #8 in a row hangs in the fieldhouse!!

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Micky Baker 2 years, 6 months ago

There has been a tendency of players coming off the bench (Teahan) who fire the ball up at the rim from 20 feet the first time they touch the ball.

On Saturday, KU lost the game, but Iowa State didn't play particularly well. Our guys didn't play their game. The last 10 minutes was ugly.

Why did we not get T-Rob the ball? He doesn't necessarily have to get it right on the block. Get him the ball a couple feet out from the block and make the defender have to come at him, then if the guy on the wing closes in, throw right back to the wing, then reverse the ball, set a back screen.

Sure, other teams know we do this, but there is a 35 second shot clock. They have time to make that other team play help side defense 4 or 5 times. This game was not because Iowa State played well, our guys just played bad.

If they're playing behind you on the block, it should not be hard at all to get T-Rob the ball, if T-Rob stepped out about 2 feet and then drop stepped to force the help side defender come over, then dish it off to Withey. The defense will learn, that if we execute, it doesn't matter if they rotate a guard onto Withey, Withey will win that matchup every time. Iowa State was not tall.

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HawkKlaw 2 years, 6 months ago

Uh, yeah. KU has a thin bench. Our starting 5 may be one of the best starting 5's in the country, but our bench is probably one of the worst. It's going to be exposed several more times this season in conference away games.

Teahen is a 3-pt specialist that is in a slump. He doesn't contribute a whole lot on defense or other aspects of the offense, so we're just going to have to deal with that lack of production whenever one of the guards needs a breather. Kevin Young and Justin Wesley are incredibly inconsistent. They have their moments, though. Naadir will be good next year, he just needs more experience.

We knew that this season would have it's down moments, primarily due to KU's lack of depth. Fear not, though. KU is still good enough to go deep in the NCAA tourney this year (with some luck), and next year KU will be stocked to the brim with talent.

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KansasComet 2 years, 6 months ago

I do not believe Teahan is in a shooting slump. I believe this is what we get with him. He can be an outstanding shooter in AFH. He is a front runner - nothing more. I do not say this to slam him. I say this to be honest. His shots seem to go in when we are comfortably ahead. I honestly think that in the back of his mind, he probably realizes he shouldn't be out there for as many minutes as he is. I will say this again for all to read. I have nothing, repeat nothing against the young man. He just plays better in cupcake games. It is time to accept this. I appreciate Teahan's efforts, but he is not good enough for the amount of minutes that he receives. Time to stop making excuses. Tharpe is talked about for making turnovers, however he is not out there long enough to get into the flow of the game. This young fella can play. He needs the opportunity. I wonder what his stats would look like if he actually played 15-20 minutes?

As far as Coach Self is concerned. Every year it seems like he has at least one kid on the team that frustrates us on minute and thrills us the next. Whether it is Rodrick Stewart, C.J. Giles, Micah Downs, Brady Morningstar, Tyshawn Taylor, Kevin Young or Teahan. That is just the way it is.

I do look forward to seeing Teahan on "Senior Night" . His speech will be very special. I am glad that he came to Kansas University and gave his all. I think that he just has too much on his plate for his skill set. No disrespect.

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HawkKlaw 2 years, 6 months ago

I agree with you about Teahen in cupcake games. I think his slump is really just a confidence issue. I believe he has the ability to step up in big-time games. But like you said, in the back of his mind he knows he's not the first scoring option. He just needs to get past that.

As far as the Tharpe vs. Teahen debate, I would say that Bill Self watches all the practices and has been an extremely successful head coach for many years now. Therefore, I will gladly defer to him on this decision. And even though this is a "down" year for KU, we are not out of the picture to win it all. Self can't just pull the "we're playing for next year" card and start playing guys in preparation for next season. KU, despite our lack of depth, is still one of the top 10 teams in college basketball. Self has got to go with the guys that can help us win right now.

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REHawk 2 years, 6 months ago

Conner might benefit from work with a sports psychologist at this stage. His production potential is still very valuable to the progress of this squad. Word is that he still is a deadeye gunner in practice sessions.

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