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Thursday, January 26, 2012

Conner Teahan working to correct three-point woes

Kansas guard Conner Teahan pulls up for a jumper over Texas A&M guard Dash Harris during the first half on Monday, Jan. 23, 2012 at Allen Fieldhouse.

Kansas guard Conner Teahan pulls up for a jumper over Texas A&M guard Dash Harris during the first half on Monday, Jan. 23, 2012 at Allen Fieldhouse.

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Conner Teahan didn’t need a stack of box scores to give an evaluation of his recent three-point shooting stats.

“They’re not good,” the senior guard said following KU’s 64-54 victory over Texas A&M on Monday. “You know what? I don’t even know what the numbers are, but when was the last time I made more than two threes in a game? I can’t remember.”

It’s actually been four games since Teahan put in a pair of treys, as he went 2-for-6 from three in KU’s 81-46 victory over Texas Tech on Jan. 11.

Against Texas A&M, the Leawood native made one of five threes to drop his season average to 36 percent (32 of 88).

“It is frustrating, because you know that’s what you’re supposed to do. That’s what you bring to the team,” Teahan said. “I’m a three-point shooter. It’s not that I don’t do too much else, but that’s my key cornerstone I need to bring to the team. When I’m not knocking it down, I’m frustrated with myself, and I know my teammates have to get frustrated.”

In his last six games, Teahan has made five of 23 three-pointers (22 percent). That’s after making 42 percent of his threes (27 of 65) in his first 14 games.

Recently, Teahan has been getting to the gym early to put up extra three-pointers with KU assistant coach Joe Dooley.

“I’ll tell you, I feel like I’m going to start really making a lot of shots,” Teahan said. “I was talking to my dad (Mark) the other night. I was like, ‘Man, I can’t buy a bucket.’ He was like, ‘Well, you’re shooting straight up and down. It looks good. You’re holding your release and everything. And I think you’re going to start making them.’”

Though it’s not well known, Teahan actually retooled his shot over the summer to try to become more consistent.

During that time, he worked out at Prairie Life Fitness in Overland Park with Dustin Lewis —a longtime basketball instructor and former high school coach in Palm Desert, Calif.

“He was like, ‘Hey, you have a good shot, but you’re kind of a streaky shooter,’ which was kind of the truth,” Teahan said. “I would go through times where I’d make a bunch in a row, then there’d be times I’d miss four or five in a row. Which, as a good shooter, you shouldn’t miss that many in a row when you’re just shooting (in a gym).”

Lewis had noticed that Teahan was shooting mostly in front of his face. When that happens, Teahan says the tendency is for a right-handed shooter’s follow-through arm to go out to the right, which results in different release points and can cause a shot to miss short, long, left or right.

Teahan altered his approach, starting his hands over to the right a bit more so that his release is straight up and down. The hope is that it will create a more consistent release point, meaning he might miss threes short or long, but he shouldn’t miss them left or right.

Teahan, who said he can recall every shot he takes after a game, said only two of his five shots against A&M felt like they might be short coming off his hand.

“I’m telling you, when I’ve been shooting the ball, they’ve been feeling good,” Teahan said. “I’ll be sitting there shooting it, and I’ll just be like, ‘It’s going in.’ When I let it go, I feel good. Most of them felt great (Monday night).

“But, you know what, I’ve got to start making them. It’s the bottom line.”

Comments

lurkerhawk 2 years, 7 months ago

Don't lose your confidence. That's your best friend.

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okiedave 2 years, 7 months ago

Conner needs to mix his game up. Too focused on 3's and it's psyching him out. Hit more 2's and drive to the basket, then his 3's will start dropping. If he knows he can do other things to contribute, and his value is not in just 3's, he will be hitting them..

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youowethehawks 2 years, 7 months ago

Dave,

You're absolutely right. When a good shooter isn't making "his shot", nothing gets him going better than canning 2 or 3 10-15 foot jumpers before stepping back out to hit the long ball.

Everyone expects Conner to take the 3. At the risk of sounding like Bobby "Gin Blossom Nose" Knight, if he'd use a shot fake, get his defender off his feet and take two dribbles towards the basket, he'd have an open 15 footer any time he wants it. Now, I don't know about you, but I feel like that's a shot he could make on a consistent basis that would let him "feel" the basket a little bit better than he is currently.

I feel like EJ could use the same methodology and find success. Additionally, considering how good of an athlete as he is, he should be taking advantage of the mid-range game to get himself back on track, if not drive every once and a while and get to the line.

I'm no Coach Dooley or Self, but that's the way I see it.

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Chad Burroughs 2 years, 7 months ago

Maybe he should get the feel of the flow of the game before he starts jacking them up.

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Royaljayhwk 2 years, 7 months ago

Someone was listening to Bob Knight the other evening....

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El Jay 2 years, 7 months ago

eh, I disagree. I like Bob as much as the next guy, but he doesnt do his homework and clearly doesnt know anything about the teams he's watching. He had no idea that Conner is supposed to shoot 3's. That is what he is in the game for. Just listen to Bob next time, he gets everyone's name wrong, some guys he just has no clue who they are, and he really doesnt know a whole lot about any team he is calling other than the basics. He is great at breaking down plays and offers great insights, but he isnt the greatest sportscaster in the world. I thought Conner was fine, he just wasnt making shots. Several of those shots were plays designed to set him up so he has to shoot in those situations. The guy who was jacking up BS with no attention to the flow of the offense was EJ. He had his worst game as a Hawk by far.

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HawkKlaw 2 years, 7 months ago

+1

I heard Bob Knight complaining quite extensively about Connor putting up 3's when he touched the ball.

As I sat there watching with my friends, I couldn't help but yell at the TV (after Knight mentioned it a 3rd time) , "that's why he's in the game!"

Shooting 3's is Connor's role, as Teahen himself pointed out. He doesn't have the all-round basketball skills that Brady and Tyrel had. He just needs to stay confident and keep putting them up. They will start falling.

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hawkinNE 2 years, 7 months ago

I believe he was meaning he shouldnt shoot itw with 30 sec on shot clock. I do agree with that.

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hawkinNE 2 years, 7 months ago

I agree with you it is a more difficult shot but thats where he chooses to camp out. Anytime motion is ran to his side he has to be told to run the baseline

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actorman 2 years, 7 months ago

You're right on the mark, 713. All one had to do was hear Knight's incredibly stupid comment about KU having "great depth" to know that he didn't have a clue what he was talking about.

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Brandon Blaylock 2 years, 7 months ago

disagree. Teahan said it himself. he is in the game to shoot threes. that's his role. if he has an open three and doesnt take it, he's not doing what he was put in to do.

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rick cowley 2 years, 7 months ago

He does need to shoot but it doesn't hurt to make a couple of passes, get up and down the court a couple of times and break a sweat first. T-Rob needs to at least get a touch in the half court before a 3 goes up by anyone.

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WilburNether 2 years, 7 months ago

No, actually, the situation is that if he has an open three and doesn't MAKE IT, he's not doing what he was put in to do.

He's a roll player. If he doesn't make 3s, then there's no reason for him to be in the game.

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Alohahawk 2 years, 7 months ago

During those practice sessions is Teahan being guarded by Dooley? Or is he putting up shots from different areas beyond the arc, while Dooley is just retrieving the ball for him? It's not like practicing freethrows. Unless he is practicing like he is playing during a game, shooting under pressure that is, that could make a big difference.

That's why, during those 3 point contests held in conjunction with a lot of all-star games, the contestants make such a high percentage.

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jayhawker_97 2 years, 7 months ago

nice pitch'in, Aloha. i think he felt it's important to get comfortable with the proper technique first. then, hopefully, bring some simulation. lots of times, when Teahan is guarded, he didn't fake the ball, either. i'm fine if he practicing those open shots, but that's very hard to come by in real games. hurry up, Teahan, we don't have much time. bench has been silence for a while. you need to make some noise again. rock chalk!

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odc213 2 years, 7 months ago

come correct. YuDaMan. You are a game changer. Just wait.

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John Randall 2 years, 7 months ago

Just wait? I like CT's approach better – work like hell.

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Brianna Zaleski 2 years, 7 months ago

I like Tehan, but the kid just can't hit clutch 3's. He never has and he never will. In order to get that % up, he needs to stop jacking them up in close games and only let them fly in close games. When the score is tight, he needs to take a step or two in and then shoot. It will be an easier shot and might go a ways to building his confidence.

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Brianna Zaleski 2 years, 7 months ago

I see what you are saying, but you are either clutch or you're not. And unfortunately, he's not.

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KansasComet 2 years, 7 months ago

Conner did make two good ones against K-State. Unfortunately, that's about it.

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HawkKlaw 2 years, 7 months ago

I agree for the most part, but I don't think he needs to take steps before he shoots. He is a pure, spot shooter. He basically needs to catch the ball and shoot all in one motion. IMO, he doesn't look very comfortable dribbling or passing.

I don't think KU has a clutch 3-pt shooter on the roster at the moment. Connor is a skilled shooter, but you're right, he hasn't hit 'em in crunch time.

I think, if KU needs a clutch play, we had better rely on Tyshawn or Elijah to drive and set up either TRob or Withey at the basket. The way Withey is knocking down FT's, I really don't see a problem with giving him the ball when time is running out.

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jhox 2 years, 7 months ago

I commented on this the other day, but I'll bring it up again. I think one of his problems is the location where he's been getting many of those shots. Most of them seem to come from near the baseline. I don't care who you are (unless maybe you're Larry Bird) that is a tougher shot than from the wings or the top of the key. Depth perception is much tougher when you have a side view of the backboard. I'd like to see them work to try to get him more open looks from the wings. Maybe that would help him get back his confidence.

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fansincewilt 2 years, 7 months ago

The nice thing about Teahan's (and Johnson's) slump is that Taylor has really picked up the slack. Now, with Taylor clicking, when we can get Teahan and Johnson back into the flow of the game, we will be flying. Hopefully it is soon as there are some pretty tough games coming up.

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Ron Franklin 2 years, 7 months ago

"When I’m not knocking it down, I’m frustrated with myself, and I know my teammates have to get frustrated.”

Conner--take this quote from Nolan Ryan to heart.....

"Don't let the success or failure of your last pitch affect the success of your next pitch."

You cannot get down on yourself.

Think, Next.

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Ron Franklin 2 years, 7 months ago

Pretty stoked that Mizzou lost @ OKSt.

KU Really needs that. I can see the hawks losing 2 or 3 out of their next 6 games, and needing to beat Mizzou at home to lock up the Big 12 title.

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Scott Oswalt 2 years, 7 months ago

Nash would've looked really good in crimson & blue.

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tis4tim 2 years, 7 months ago

"When I’m not knocking it down, I’m frustrated with myself, and I know my teammates have to get frustrated.”

Don't forget about the fans ...

Still, the way shooters break out of a slump is to shoot. Conner can't make them if he doesn't take them. Yeah, it's frustrating to watch when he's off, but as long as they're open looks he has to keep shooting. They'll start to fall again.

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dylans 2 years, 7 months ago

I remember watching Billy Thomas miss 12 threes in one game. If they aren't falling whats wrong with a 15 footer? Don't try and shoot yourself out of a slump during the game! Keep practicing and they will fall.

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lurkerhawk 2 years, 7 months ago

It's better Connor miss them now rather than later. He'll regress to his mean by tourney time.

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REHawk 2 years, 7 months ago

I think the team has to abandon half the threes they have been taking. If Johnson and Teahan clang their first two attempts, then I think they should focus more on the long jumpers a couple of steps inside the arc. The poor inside out game in the first half vs. A+M was ridiculous. I think that Withey and Releford have to be the focus of more attention, both from Thomas and the guards, esp. when Thomas is triple defended. I look to see more plays designed for spacing to allow Thomas to find those two for speedier release and delivery. His first inclination still appears to be to hesitate, then try to bull his way out of coverage. At this juncture, Tyshawn is the only player with whom I'm comfortable at the 3 pt. shot, even if he should clang his first two. Johnson's reticence to take the ball to the rim really limits the team's options.

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lurkerhawk 2 years, 7 months ago

Even a down year is a "final four or bust" year at Kansas.

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KansasComet 2 years, 7 months ago

The reason KU goes home early in the NCAA's some years is situations like this. Sometimes we are playing 4 on 5 or even 3 on 5. I don't mean to ruffle feathers, but it is the truth. Teams scout KU. They realize when we have someone out there that is not a threat to score. This makes it harder for the ones that score. That is why Robinson will continue to be tripled teamed. We need another threat other than Tyshawn.I remember how this board was going crazy about Teahan's shooting ability during the exhibition season. Every game is meaningful now. It is time to step up, or sit down. I like the kid, and there is a role for him on this team. I think we may be putting a little too much on him. When Kansas is ahead in games, this young man shoots the ball lights out. When the games are tight, he has a slight hitch in his shot. I appreciate his efforts in trying to get better.

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Cole Hogan 2 years, 7 months ago

you doint think we have another threat? have you not been watching the games lately? dont get me wrong, no one is stellar out there like robinson an dtaylor, but you give the ball to releford or withey...good things have definately seemed to have been happening lately

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KansasComet 2 years, 7 months ago

I said "sometimes", not all the time. Of course Releford and Withey can play. However, sometimes it is like 4 on 5 or 3 on 5. I do not need you to question whether I have been watching games lately. If you would like to discuss basketball, that's fine.

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Cole Hogan 2 years, 7 months ago

woh, sorry there old-timer, didn;t mean to step on your toes.

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Steve Quatrocky 2 years, 7 months ago

Totally agree about the hitch in his shot, you can almost hear him thinking too much, I'm open, its a good shot, its my role but if I miss....clang.

Its all about confidence.

BTW, one thing Bobby Knight missed in his analysis is that Conner did get involved in the flow of the A&M game, his first shot was a swish from inside the arc, two steps inside after a pump fake got his man off his feet at the three point line. Cant believe Knight missed his own trademark "pump fake".

A&M made the decision to clog the inside and leave our shooters open until they made a bucket, they are supposed to take those shots but the law of averages had the night off. Better to have that off shooting night against A&M, and win, than to have it against Iowa State, Baylor, KState or Mizzou. A&M's gameplan and intricate knowledge of our offense, clearly had everyone weirded out there for awhile, calling a play and watching the other team change D faster than your own guys change the play. It was a W, enough said and it puts them in a more focused/attentive mood going up to Ames.

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studio 2 years, 7 months ago

Work the defense to the best open shot. As "The Archer"' sees the arrow strike the target, see the ball through the hoop (not at the hoop) before release. Your body knows, after millions of shots throughout your lifetime, how to follow your pure mind's resolve without the distraction of potential failure. Nothing worse than seeing good shooters, in rhythm, pull back from taking the open shot that the confident shooter positions for. At least that's my $.03.

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Dyrk Dugan 2 years, 7 months ago

Teahan is not a starter.....and he's not athletic....so the threes have to go in. He's like downtown Freddie Brown from the old Seattle Supersonic days...."instant offense" is what they called him...and that's Teahan.

He needs to be there instantly. the first one, has to go in. He is more consistent this year, yes, but now he's slumping, and it's all confidence. the main confidence though, comes from making his first attempt.

Maybe they need to have a rule saying "you will not attempt a three until the team has at least three possessions with you on the floor" or something like that. Maybe he needs to get in the flow more, i don't know.

i agree with his assessment though: the shots LOOK good. he's had a lot of pinball outs...it's just one of those things. i've actually been pretty pleased with the way he's played this year....he's been a solid contributor.

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wrwlumpy 2 years, 7 months ago

Teahan not athletic?

State MVP in two sports. Div 1 scholarships in two sports. 4 Big 12 Title rings and a National Championship ring. Any other Jayhawk have this much Jewelry?

Walk on at KU who is getting more minutes now than EJ because of his ability to play better defense than anyone else on the bench.

He is what he is. A walk on that we have to depend on. Dispite his shooting, Self still has him in the game. Bitch all you want about this. Don't ever blame a walk on who plays lots of minutes.

Conner has done as much as Moody did to help us be where no one ever thought this team would be this time of year.

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rwhawk 2 years, 7 months ago

I think his point is that for a D1 6th man, he's not very athletic, which is true. And your point about him being a walk-on further makes that point. I also don't think he was blaming Teahan for anything. Simply pointing out how important it is for him to hit his shots, because when he's not, he is less than a role player on the floor.

I think everyone agrees that he's great for a walk-on, but for our 6th man, its troubling when he's not making the long ball.

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rwhawk 2 years, 7 months ago

"very athletic" is relative, I guess, depending on what measuring stick one is using.

I would be interested in seeing how you would rate the athleticism of the players on KU's team? Or rate all the Big Xii players who play more than 5 minutes a game? I think you'd place him pretty low and that's all I mean by not athletic (I'm comparing him to his peers playing the minutes).

Don't argue with me about his intelligence and soundness of his game...I completely agree with you. And I also agree he's the best option the team has coming off the bench. I like the guy and love him when he's hitting his shot.

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bennybob 2 years, 7 months ago

There are many contributing factors as to why Teahan gets more minutes than EJ

"his ability to play better defense" is not one of them.

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rwhawk 2 years, 7 months ago

Finish reading his sentence, "...than anyone on the bench." I might agree with that and would expect his playing time reflects that reality (given Self's focus on defense).

Had he compared his defense to the starting 5, I'd say you would be correct.

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Dyrk Dugan 2 years, 7 months ago

you're kidding right? that's what set you off...not athletic? as a major college basketball player, he's not. i mean he bounces his ball off his foot or loses it a lot of ways....he's not fast on the court either, compared to his recruited teammates. I know he was a very good football player in HS...good grief. he also didn't even make it past spring practices for this current KU team...so that right there says a lot. he's done a good job...as i said, i'm happy with the way he's played.....but he definitely is not athletic, in the world of big time college bball...and that's what we're talking about.

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jaybate 2 years, 7 months ago

Like your spunk, lump.

You play with what you got.

I would rather have Wilt than TRob, Kirk than EJ, Brandon than Trav, and so on. You can always play that game.

The question is: who is better than Conner who is not playing more?

No one yet. And Naadir and KY keep getting lots of opps.

Last year, EJ and Trav could not beat out Tyrel and Brady.

This year, Conner, Naadir and KY can't beat out EJ and Trav.

And Naadir and KY can't beat out Conner.

I don't see any thing wrong with this picture.

Instead of complaining about Conner, be grateful and hope KY and Naadir can snap to.

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Jack Wilson 2 years, 7 months ago

Not to be pessimistic .. but Teahan is shooting 36% from three range. His career percentage before this season .. 36.9%. Obviously, not as many shots. But the point is the same. For his career, including this season, he's 36.5%. I think everyone thought that this guy was a three point specialist or something after his freshman season -- 12 for 20. But after that, he as not been.

But we can always hope. Heck, if he can 30 for 60 the rest of the way, that will get him around 41% for the year. We'll take that I think.

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David Davison 2 years, 7 months ago

Our inability to guard the 3 is what I seem to remember from our tourney losses. Perhaps you are right that we shot too many 3s at a low percentage in those games, but I think that is a symptom rather than a cause of why we lost them.

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actorman 2 years, 7 months ago

KonkeyDong (love the handle, BTW), I think you're operating from a false premise -- that if someone misses two or three shots early in a game that means they're more likely to miss a shot after that. I think that's one of those "common wisdom" things that's not necessarily true; in fact I saw a statistical analysis a few years ago that said there was no evidence to support that belief system.

I could understand if someone had missed a lot of shots that you might want him to not continue shooting, but two or three shots is not NEARLY enough to establish a pattern, and there are all kinds of other factors involved, like who's guarding him, what the game situation is, how many seconds are left on the shot clock, etc.

The other problem I have with your statement is that if everyone other than TT were to basically stop shooting threes after a few misses, that would mean that defenses could collapse even more inside on us than they already are. Even if KU is missing threes, at least it makes the other team consider the possibility and take it a little more seriously than if KU were to not try them at all.

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KansasComet 2 years, 7 months ago

Nice post. Downtown Freddie Brown was one heck of a shooter! An effective 3 point shooter must have an assassins mentality. Meaning if you give them one step of separation, they will bury you.

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KansasComet 2 years, 7 months ago

Terry Brown, what a great three point shooter!!

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wrwlumpy 2 years, 7 months ago

It's nice to wake up with a two game lead in the B12. Holding serve with aTm and Texas look so much better now. 3's fall much easier in the rythem of the offense. EJ, You have the abilty to drive the ball better than Selby ever could, so, DO IT.

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KansasComet 2 years, 7 months ago

A good jump shot is something you can repeat under pressure.

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Tony Bandle 2 years, 7 months ago

State of the Jayhawks Hiaku:

MU lost again

KU versus ISU

Oh crap, it's a trap

State of the Jayhawks in poster-ese:

If the Hawks can avoid losing to anyone on the road whose name ends in "State" They will be in very good shape and should be good to make it eight. For a team whose preseason expectations were good not great As March Madness approaches, Jayhawk nation can't wait!!


State of the Jayhawks in " bottom line".

Win, baby...just win!!

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lrahardja 2 years, 7 months ago

CT's mechanic looks good. Working out at Prairie Life Fitness may not be the ideal environment to simulate shooting under real game pressure, that intensity and the feel must be very different. This is where CT needs to have more confidence. He seems bothered by defender presence. Simulate that intensity during practice, have somebody other than your team mates guard you perhaps. Keep shooting, and they will fall. Go CT!!!

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actorman 2 years, 7 months ago

"CT's mechanic looks good."

Where exactly is that good-looking mechanic, and is she single? Just wondering.

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dw3c 2 years, 7 months ago

CT is a much better shooter than 36%. Have to think that law of averages will kick in at some point, which is good news considering the most important 2 months are coming up.

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texashawk10 2 years, 7 months ago

Connor was around 36% before this year, so he's shooting his average.

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actorman 2 years, 7 months ago

I'd love to think you're right, dw3c, but what evidence do you have to support that assertion? Is it because he had a great freshman year (on an extremely limited number of shots in garbage time)? Or because we've been told for years how great he is in practice (a la Jeremy Case)?

I'm not necessarily saying you're wrong, but the truth is that we don't really know how great a shooter he is in situations where it counts because there's not enough of a database yet to make that determination.

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jhawkrulz 2 years, 7 months ago

I am not one that likes all the stories about wins and losses throughout the Big XII, but when Missouri who is supposedly trying to get its first Big XII title loses to a below .500 team, I like stories about that, even if it is the 2 paragraph blurp from the AP. Missouri losses bring "almost" as much joy to me as a KU win.

I'd love to read all the posts about the game as well.

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KU 2 years, 7 months ago

Go with the flow, Threehan. You should come out of your funk just in time to help shoot down Misery a week from Saturday!

When our best 3pt shooter is hitting 22% and we are still 7-0 in conference, I would say his dry spell hasn't hurt us too much.

Now, Elijah.........that's a whole other story. If he would just be confident enough to get in the lane! All that athleticism wasted standing on the 3pt line.

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Tony Bandle 2 years, 7 months ago

EJ - lane it, gain it, drain it

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Scott Oswalt 2 years, 7 months ago

Exactly! Why isn't he driving the lane? He has decent handles and major ups. Drive it and throw it down young fella!

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Robert Brown 2 years, 7 months ago

I agree with a lot of the previous posts that Teahan hasn't proven to be able to hit a clutch shot. I think that Bill Self told him early in the season to shoot when open and I think he took that to heart maybe a little too much. He seems to hurry his shot. Bob Knight's analysis on Monday was right on. Watching Teahan makes me appreciate Reed and Morningstar even more than I did.

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baldwinjhawk 2 years, 7 months ago

Is anyone else embarrassed for the Okie state fans? Storming the court? Really? You just beat mizzou... at home..BFD! first time in a Limo? lol

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jhawkrulz 2 years, 7 months ago

Yes, probably the first time ever that a team has stormed the court after beating Missouri.

I still think Missouri is overrated, and as teams figure out how to play against 4 guards, Missouri will not be the competitor for the Big XII tournament, in fact I still think they lose 5-7 games in the Big XII (of course 2 to KU).

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Steve Brown 2 years, 7 months ago

Grasshopper the day may never come but if it does be advised.

If we are unranked, haven't been to the top twenty in 4-5 years and we knock off a top 5 team on our home court, we tazke it in stride and we do NOT rush, storm or walk onto the court.

While we are at it, don't wooo in the chant and honor our troops with home of the brave.

not that anyone is coachable, but really don't storm the AFH court, the last time was Stallworth 50 pt. upset of MU '71 and we were wrong then too.

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actorman 2 years, 7 months ago

I was surprised that they did that, but then the cold fear swept over me that if we were ever in a similar situation (God forbid), as described by lighthawk, we may end up doing the same thing. I would love to think otherwise, but human nature being what it is, if a team has been down for a while and beats a top-5 team, it's only natural that the students would want to celebrate.

Let's hope we never have a chance to find out.

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Ben Kane 2 years, 7 months ago

love hearing about the hardwork our Hawks are putting in, this is something often unknown to us fans. I'm sure his shot will start falling more soon. This doesn't negate some of the things i've mentioned as his negatives that i will recap here: -takes too long to get shot off -doesn't have the handles to go off the dribble -not a high level defender

I have been absolutely shocked at the level TT has been hittinig the trey. I would have laughed at you before the season if you had even suggested it.

EJ is the key here. before his freshman season i saw him practice and i swear he had the smoothest looking stroke i've ever seen. if he can shoot himself out of his slump then there won't be as much pressure on 3han (who every team knows is in the game for one reason).

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Ben Kane 2 years, 7 months ago

i can't take credit for that. someone came up with that during one of the game's on the live blog.

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Ben Kane 2 years, 7 months ago

interesting stuff. maybe one of our donors can drop some big dough for a high-tech shooting room that can measure these micro deviations.

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jhawkrulz 2 years, 7 months ago

He might be warming up for the Harlem Globetrotters, they have a 4 pointer for certain points of the game.

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jaybate 2 years, 7 months ago

slayr,

Bringing it to the people.

Thanks.

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jaybate 2 years, 7 months ago

"Shooters, Slumps, Floor Games and Picasso Finding Art"

Conner, listen up.

CT Trey Makes= .364.

EJ Trey Makes= .288.

TR Trey Makes=.33

You're in a mini-slump. Trav is in a mini slump. EJ is in a maxi slump. The only one not slumping is TT, who keeps blazing at .457, to the surprise of all but me, who predicted since last summer TT probably could shoot 40% this season, with a healed hand.

Conner, if you think you've got problems, opponents are still guarding you at the trey stripe.

They have kissed off guarding EJ outside, except to stand on the trey stripe and laugh. With Trav, they don't even stand on the trey stripe right now.

You three need to stick together. You three need to let Tyshawn shine and not grip. You guys will come out blazing sooner or later. Frankly, its best you are all slumping now, because having three hot trey shooters down the stretch, when TT will probably run into some tough sledding for awhile himself, bodes well for our March chances.

Next, Conner, forget all this bad mouthing of your non shooting game and quit acting like your only important contribution to the team is trey shooting. You're just like every other player on the team. You have to contribute in lots of ways. If you doubt me, Conner, look at the stats that I believe document what I am about to say.

Conner's productivity per playing time in non scoring stats is generally better than EJ and Travis.

Okay, everyone, stop infarcting, I am not dissing EJ and Travis who are doing swell in my opinion. I am giving props where props are do to a guy who is giving better support than an underwire bra on Dolly Parton.

Conner plays a third the minutes of EJ and Travis and has half the reebs, two thirds the strips, and half to two thirds the assists. These are eye ball percentages, I did not actually calculate them, so I will defer to anyone that does. That being said, the only place Conner appears to lag EJ and Trav is in blocks, where Conner has zero and they have as many as 5, for the season. Big !@#$%ing deal! None of your perimeter pals is exactly TRob, or Jeff Withey, in this category, okay?

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Jim Roth 2 years, 7 months ago

Since you asked...

PLAYER reb/min ast/min stl/min T.Releford 0.139 0.060 0.044 E.Johnson 0.096 0.117 0.052 C.Teahan 0.113 0.050 0.033

Sorry about the spacing (this site thwarts my attempts to improve formatting).

On a per minute basis, Conner has a lower assist and steal rate than the other two, and is second in rebounds.

Data here http://www.sportsnetwork.com/merge/tsnform.aspx?c=kusports&page=cbask/conf/big12/tmstat.aspx?id=B33

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jaybate 2 years, 7 months ago

Again, this is not to say that Conner can defend, as tightly, or create off the dribble as well, as EJ and Tyshawn and Trav; they are better at those things and that is why they are starting and playing lots more minutes.

But it is to say that Conner is not this terrible weak link in the team, the minute he steps on the floor. He just isn't stellar like the starters are.

And he does not appear to be nearly as vulnerable to blow bys as, say, Naadir and KY, two ways Self might substitute around Conner. Without putting too fine of a point on it, KY's trey shooting is only a percentage point better on lots fewer shots, and his stats for strips and TOs are inferior to Conner's, so KY, much as I like him, and hope for his performance to improve, does not so far seem a credible alternative to Conner.

Next, we need to think positively about how to get Conner and EJ untracked and if it is even realistic to expect Trav to get untracked.

Let's take Trav first, and cut him some slack. Dude sports a Lucchese fer Christian Dior's sakes. Dude is clipping off miracles just playing Tenacious D. Travis is my man, just as EJ and Conner are my men, too. I didn't expect Tyrel to ding trinities last season at better than .36 when I realized he had to get the buck knife treatment from some saw bones after the campaign. So: I don't think its fair to even talk about Travis clipping trinities at 40% till he heals, which will probably be next season. End of Trav analysis.

Next, EJ and Conner. These two have to be taken as a package for this reason: they are "shooters." They are the rare breed. They are the weirdoes that can in practice make 5 million in a row from 30 feet unguarded. These are the guys who came out of the birth canal hoisting the placenta across the delivery room and ash canning it. These are the guys that have been walking around grade schools and high schools most of their lives with smoking guns hanging out of their hoodie's sleeves. These are the long range gunners that are a breed apart in basketball...in their own ways as utterly flipping weird psychologically as the extreme bigs.

Conner and EJ need first to admit that they are the rare breed and that ordinary people can't possibly get what they, or their art, are all about.

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KansasComet 2 years, 7 months ago

What we need to remember about Elijah: He is a point guard, not a shooting guard. He plays shooting guard because that is his role at KU. He loves to distribute and then decide when to take his shot. If you look at history, he has always done quite well when he is running the point!

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Alohahawk 2 years, 7 months ago

For those who may have missed it, Zagsblog.com is running a poll for "National POY". TRob is second, behind A.Davis of Kenstinky. He gained some from yesterday to today but is still about 250 votes behind.

Unfortunately, once you've voted, they won't let you vote more than once. I tried.

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jhawkrulz 2 years, 7 months ago

Is it by username or sometimes you can clear your cookies and vote again on some of those sites...just an FYI.

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Jim Roth 2 years, 7 months ago

Or hop on a different computer. I didn't have to log on to vote (only to comment)

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Scott Oswalt 2 years, 7 months ago

Missing a 3 pointer usually leads to a long rebound, then leads to a fast break for the opposing team. We will be in trouble if KU's guards jack up bricks vs. MU. They are excellent in transition, where they get many of their baskets. Pump fake and dish it inside to TRob or Jeff for the JAM! Not one team in the Big12 can contain our bigs. Stop shooting 3's (unless you're wide open) and get the easy shot. Our shooting % is becoming a little concerning. We definitely need 3han & EJ to step up. The possession that EJ had last game where he jacked up a 3, missed badly, then jacked up another one, was a real head scratcher. You're better than that EJ. We have a 2 game cushion, so lets limit the mental lapses. Play smart and we win another conference title.

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jaybate 2 years, 7 months ago

Next, Conner and EJ need to take a blood oath, you know, pin-prick their finger tips and press them together and say, "Brotherhood of the Gun/Sempre Fi m!@#$%^er"

These two Ed Dorn gunslingin', trey shootin', microwave roastin', cord scorchin' salt and pepper dudes, need to stand tall and walk tall and listen to the sound of their genetic futures slappin' between their quads!

EJ and Conner need to start wearing SEAL team fatigues around campus and start swaggering like Denzel Washington at a Miss Nude Universe contest!

Screw this soul-searching Dr. Phil stuff.

Shooters shoot.

Shooters are weird people by definition. Accept it. Conner and EJ are artists, not technicians. Artists master techniques for breakfast for it is mastery of technique that is the litmus test of commitment to excellence among artists, or so said poet Ezra Pound something near that between bouts of insanity and treason.

But it is in the artistic swagger and will to find, rather than search, for shots that artists and "shooters" do what they do and what we wonder at.

Conner and EJ can do something the rest of us can only wet dream about doing. TRob cannot even imagine it, great as he is. Stuffing and blocking we can all rationalize and say, "Well, if I were that tall, then I could do that, too." Its not totally true of course, but we mere mortals make such rationalizations to help us carry on through mediocrity.

But with shooting, we all have a hand, an arm and an eye. We can all shoot the ball from 10-20 feet out. But we cannot do what Conner and EJ do, even as well as they do when they are slumping. And most of us make even 2 for 6 against a Division 1 defender? Fuggedaboutit!!!

We don't know why they can do it, and we cannot. We can't even rationalize that they have better eye sight, because they don't. We only know that something brilliant and magical and magnificent goes on inside their minds that does not go on in ours. Looking at a shooter poses the same problem to a mortal as looking at a great artist.

You two, and now Tyshawn, too, are our trey shooters.

You guys are different. Beautiful eccentrics by definition. Naked, howling at the moon crazy artists finding made treys with leather pumpkins, where the rest of us would just clang and clank.

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jaybate 2 years, 7 months ago

In a very, very, very, narrow realm, you three get to do the Alpha and Omega thing. You three cast bolts of lightening. You create momentum. You destroy momentum. You are our Treyodutus, Trifecticus, and Triniculus--the three gods of 3sville, as slayr called it recently.

You shoot threes. You come in threes, i.e., a team tries to have three dingers on the floor if it can. Three has always been a big number in history, myth, religion and alchemy. And with the painting of that stripe sometime ago, it became a big number in basketball.

Back to the present, and artists, if you will go look at a Picasso painting, especially a real one hanging on a museum wall, you will see exactly what it means to find art, rather than search for it. I am quite convinced that if Conner and EJ (Tyshawn can skip the trip as long as he is above 40%) would go to the Nelson in Kansas City, or maybe KU has one hanging some where, they will experience instantly what they are doing wrong in their shooting and instantly be able to "find" their shots again.

Picasso said two vitally important things in the entirety of his great and occasionally controversial life, as nearly as I can tell (and lots more of lesser note that is also worth knowing).

First, he said, "I decided to remain 31 in my mind for the rest of my life."

Mercifully, this does not yet apply to Conner and EJ and Tyshawn. :-)

But the second great thing Picasso said surely does.

The Pic-man said: "I don't search for art. I find it."

This maybe translated into basketball as, "I don't search for a trey. I find it."

"Finding" is the ultimate state of being integrated in the moment before the canvas, or before the iron, so you don't merely recognize something but do it.

Self has put both of you "shooters", EJ and Conner, into the most difficult position he can put you in. He is saying be glue, which requires "searching" for the flow of the game and feeding it, while at the same time he is saying be "shooters," which requires not searching for shots, but finding shots.

He is asking you to rise above yourselves and become "both."

He does this because he is a sadistic monster who wants to torture shooters, because he was only a so-so shot clipper. :-)

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jaybate 2 years, 7 months ago

No, no, no, just kidding. He does this, because he is trying to break you out of yourselves and take you guys to the next level of getting better. He does this to everyone. But in the case of shooters, it really messes with their shots, not just their minds. He knows this and that's why once he finally turns shooting over to you, he will let you shoot yourself into the Grand Canyon of slumps. He is willing to let you labor to find your way out, because he knows breaking you out of just being shooters is painful, and he knows that once you labor beyond your mother of all slumps, you will be walking around with a ten foot tall swagger for the rest of the season.

Picasso had swagger. He found a lot of art. Picasso had stones the size of moons orbiting Jupiter. Picasso got the good looking women (and that's plural). Picasso was who everyone oohed and aaaaahed about when he found a picture, or even walked into a room, even though he wasn't too pretty himself.

Even though lots of other contemporaries of his were just as brilliant technically, they wasted too much time searching for art and not enough time finding it.

Picasso would have been a trey shooter in basketball.

Both of you need to slap on a black beret and stop gripping, and keep shooting, stop looking for the shot and start finding it.

Shooters who think too much wind up as insurance salesmen, not shooters.

You're not ready for the insurance racket.

Keep finding your shots.

P.S.: :Slayr made a great point yesterday. Find the shot with your feet at the trey stripe, not by the sideline.

Rock Chalk!!!

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angusmcpherr 2 years, 7 months ago

jaybate- here are the stats I have (per minute) Rebounds: Travis 0.15; EJ 0.10; Conner 0.12 Steals: TR 0.04; EJ 0.06; CT 0.03 Assists: TR 0.06; EJ 0.12; CT 0.05 Turnovers TR 0.04; EJ 0.07; CT 0.05

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jaybate 2 years, 7 months ago

angus,

Thanks for that assist, even though it means I was was sharply over-optimistic in my guesstimates. Conner is not out performing Trav and Ej on a per minute basis, as I first thought.

On the other hand, your grinding the numbers for me shows Conner is pretty close to one or both of them in most categories, so while I was hugely incorrect to say CT was out performing them, I was onto something very significant in noticing that he was nevertheless showing up well in comparison with them in these stats.

Rebounds: All three are close. Steals: All three are close. Assists: Trav and CT are close. EJ is double. Turnovers: Trav and CT are close. EJ is significantly higher.

Conclusion: these stats support that there is not a great fall off when Conner comes in these aspects of the game, but there is not much improvement, either.

Perhaps this is why he is playing so much. He can't lock down defend, or create, but he isn't costing Self a lot when he uses Conner to rest these guys. And his trey gun, even when slumping right now, is a big step up from EJ and a small step up from Trav.

Again, thanks for exposing both my bad and my good. I am already better. :-)

Rock Chalk!

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jhawkrulz 2 years, 7 months ago

Did you account for who they are guarding or being guarded by? I would guess that CT isn't guarding or being guarded by their best scorer or best defender.

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jaybate 2 years, 7 months ago

jhawkrulz,

Excellent point.

These kinds of distinctions are critical to analysis.

My guess would be that opposing teams tend not to put their best defender on EJ, Trav, or Conner, but rather on TT. What do you think?

I would guess that Conner spends more time on the floor versus the opposing teams best back-ups, too.

Tyshawn, EJ and Trav are the best players we have for starters and big minute men.

And Conner makes a very good first back up; that's my point.

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REHawk 2 years, 7 months ago

Baldwin, we must keep in mind that Okie State didn't just defeat Mizzou; they whipped the #2 team in the nation this week. And their season has been so utterly miserable, to date. Plus, they haven't the patented class of the Jayhawk Nation.

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JayHok 2 years, 7 months ago

Was curious to see what Tiger fans had to say about their loss this morning. Went to their local paper's comment section after the article. Not a single comment. Zilch. But I did find this story linked to their website.

http://mobile.slate.com/articles/life/a_fine_whine/2012/01/pajamas_in_public_the_popularity_of_sleepwear_is_not_a_sign_of_america_s_declining_moral_fiber_.single.html

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jaybate 2 years, 7 months ago

"Gambling, Basketball, Defense, and the Water in Stillwater"

"Guide to Sports Betting" by Kelso Sturgeon published 1973 is a recent read that is part of my on-going archaeology of hoop think.

Reading this was triggered by Keegs dutiful PR for the gaming industry a few days back.

Before this I read Murray Sperber's "College Sports, Inc." published in 1990, which was triggered simply by a random find in a used book store.

Anecdotally speaking, these old books seem more candid about corruption than what is written today.

Today, it seems as if corruption has almost been normalized.

Murray Sperber warned in 1990 that college sports were big business and that if they were not reigned in, then college athletic departments might one day become the tail that wags the dog of the university in all manner of ways.

Now, it seems that what Sperber warned has not only come to pass, but is the new normal.

Yet one thing has conspicuously not come to pass that Kelso Sturgeon forecast as looming in basketball betting.

Kelso Sturgeon, back before computers and digital technology made it possible to gamble from your own flipping smart phone, wrote that basketball had not only had a lot of gambling scandals in its past, but indicated that point shaving was more widespread in 1973 than probably ever before and that he believed an very huge, very ugly gambling scandal implicating hugely pervasive point shaving would inevitably rock college basketball.

He said that because betting on basketball was based on lines with point spreads, and because it was so easy for players to point shave on defense in basketball without getting caught that point shaving had spread widely and would continue to be widespread.

Sturgeon also wrote in 1973 that it was university administrators and the NCAA that had contributed to the problem, because they had never been willing to acknowledge just how wide spread the problem was and had never really been willing to engage in extensive discipline of the kind that would be needed to reduce point shaving.

Sturgeon noted that Bradley Coach Fordy Anderson, whose team "dumped" a game, said that he had been over the films of the games many times and had never fond a single play that looked like his players had under performed on defense to shave the points. And yet, the players were caught and confessed finally to doing just that.

Sturgeon left the impression that it was virtually impossible to distinguish a bad defensive play, from an intentionally bad defensive play.

So: point shaving seemed a structural problem in 1973.

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jaybate 2 years, 7 months ago

But, again, the grand scandal revealing just how widespread point shaving had become and would remain, according to his forecast, has never surfaced in the following 3-4 decades.

Why?

Did fixers suddenly get religion?

Did players suddenly realize it was the wrong thing to do?

I kind of doubt it.

Did gambling get so big that there is enough money to be made without fixing games?

Well, since humans have a rather inelastic demand for money, generally, and since I would reckon that fixers have an even more inelastic demand for money, I kind of doubt this, too.

I have a wild hunch that Sturgeon's mother of all gambling storms is still out there brewing.

Since 1973, gambling has been formally included into the institutions of the sport.

Tom Keegan can write about a story about a line maker.

Odds are carried for all major sports in most publications.

Asymmetric media hype of teams apparently triggering false expectations about many teams future performances is de rigeur.

In the computer age, when all teams and all stats can be tracked in real time in seemingly near infinite detail, line makers continue to make lots of goofy, and/or counterintuitive spreads.

Back in 1973, there were six pre conference games, most of them against credible D1 competition, with a couple cupcakes.

Today there area 12 pre conference games, six with credible D1 competition, and six with cupcakes. Why? Is it just about the gate? Or does institutionalized gambling benefit more from all these one sided games with cupcakes.

Where do the fixers fit in today?

Back in 1973, Sturgeon said that honest bookies (perhaps a leaping assumption) and casinos wanted the games on the up and up and hated the fixers (fixers arrange for point shaving) and the sharps (professional gamblers that have winning systems and place huge wagers), because they putting bookies out of business, and threatened to corrupt the goose that laid the golden egg--the game being bet upon--for the casinos and their line makers.

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jaybate 2 years, 7 months ago

Do we believe this version of reality that Sturgeon related in 1973? If yes, does it still apply today?

Or are we in a brave new world of gambling where fixing, sharping, line making, and media hyping have all converged into the same business?

And what about referees and their effects on the game?

Gamblers were supposedly furious at the low quality of refereeing back in the 1970s, because the poor refereeing and the biased refereeing supposedly made outcomes unpredictable and so eat into the profits enabled by the teams playing to their abilities, as per the line makers spread.

How do we interpret the refereeing today? The refs go for lengthy stretches each game swallowing their whistles. I have argued that this is due mostly to refs trying to keep games in broadcast windows. Is some form of blatant, systematic, institutionalized point shaving instead?

In 1973, sports gambling was already considered one of the biggest industries in the USA.

Today, it has to be orders of magnitude bigger than it was in 1973.

Are we looking at a game of basketball that literally exists for betting in the same way that horse racing does?

Are we looking at a game of basketball, where most everything that is written and broadcast and pod cast, is geared toward stimulating betting, and stimulating betting in certain directions, so that gambling profits can be maximized?

Are we looking at a game wherein the players, Bill Self, Sheahon Zenger, Chancellor Grey-Little and our favorite reporters and editors are really just subordinates of the gambling industry?

I haven't made up my mind. It will take a lot more digging, but it now seems to be a reasonable possibility.

Sturgeon's old book, "Guide to Sports Betting," also had some interesting interviews with leading basketball coaches of the time. My favorites were quotes from John Wooden, Jack Hartman, Norm Sloan and Bob Knight. The quotes discussed the home court advantage in basketball and the reasons for it.

It surprised me that these coaches would agree to be quoted in a book by an author from the gambling industry written for those that want to learn how to gamble. I wonder if Bill Self, or John Calipari, or Billy Donovan would agree today to such interviews and quotation in a gambling book?

All said the home court was a distinct advantage, but Bob Knight said that the building of new arenas that removed the fans and students farther from the court and benches was reducing the home court advantage back in 1973.

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jaybate 2 years, 7 months ago

The coaches did not quantify how many points the home court was worth. Sturgeon said gamblers in those days estimated the home court advantage was worth about 5 points.

For those that gamble, is the home court estimated to be worth about the same today?

I wonder if the new arenas, which might have reduced the home court advantage, are now witnessing an increase in home court advantage, because of the digitally enriched media of today creating louder and more stimulated fans and louder music and richer visuals?

Looking back, Sturgeon's book makes practically no mention of KU basketball. Ted Owens was not quoted nor mentioned. He was not ranked as one of the coaches that gamblers viewed as winners that often beat the line. UNC and Dean Smith were very low profile in the book. Were KU and UNC on the outside of the gambling culture in those days, or just KU? Or were KU and Owens just not good enough to bet on, and UNC and Dean just coincidentally not emphasized?

For me, Sturgeon's most interesting anecdote was about a then "most" famous basketball handicapper who operated under the name of "Matt Nevada." Guess where he came from? Stillwater, Oklahoma. He grew up watching Henry Iba's Oklahoma A&M teams. His cardinal rule was: never give points on a college basketball team on the road. Always take points on a team on the road, or don't bet. Matt Nevada said home court mattered, but it was not nearly as important as size, speed, health and coach. Defensive teams with experienced players playing on the road were some of the best bets, if you took the right points.

Is it something in the water in Stillwater that makes coaches, players, and basketball handicappers from there be religiously devoted to defense?

Coach Self, you have an opinion on any of this?

Keegs, you want to ask him?

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jhawkrulz 2 years, 7 months ago

Jaybate, I actually read some of your comments...be proud of me. I like them, but wow...3 separate multi-posts on one article. I'll let you slide because I too was craving something about the joyous loss from a team yesterday, but there wasn't an article to post against.

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jaybate 2 years, 7 months ago

jhawkrulz,

I am not only proud of you, but I love you even when you do not read me.

The internet has changed many aspects of everything.

It has changed both how we will be propagandized, psy-opped, marketed to, brain washed, as well as, how we will remain free citizens thinking freely.

In your posts, I always sense a tremendous concern over the length and frequency of my posts, as if I am butting up against some natural law, or some Ricardian heuristic pretending to be something structural, rather than the human-made, institutionally-driven prescription that all Ricardian dogma is.

The bandwidth for digital discourse is effectively infinite here. Even if everyone here posted twice as much and twice as often, as I do, there would be no data bottle neck. The quantities of our words are inconsequential in the bit stream of digital life.

Now, were I to think entirely in graphics and jpeg, and of everyone were to do the same, in about a hundred years, or so, a problem might develop, if work on quantum computing proves a dead end.

Length of post, frequency of post, these are things you no longer need to fret about.

Scrolling is so easy, too, especially on a smart phone.

I would really like to read much, much more about what you think about basketball and life, rather than see you spin your wheels and trouble yourself with the length and frequency of another's posts.

I care about what you think about basketball.

Please post more and more often.

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jaybate 2 years, 7 months ago

Everyone needs their job. The first country to dump the fallacious blinders of Ricardo-ism yet again, and embrace full employment again will walk away with the race to lead the world yet again, and in the process recover sovereignty for the nation state from the clutches of the private oligarchy. You read it here first. :-)

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KULA 2 years, 7 months ago

I hope Conner starts shooting better, since, unfortunately, he's our first best option off the bench, but the simple fact is, he's just not that good. Watching him play, it's obvious why he's been a non-scholarship walk on all these years (until Bill had a scholarship to spare). The term "3 point specialist" is one of those blurbs (like "lock-down defender") included in the press notes for the visiting commentators so they have something to say about a player when he gets into the game.

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rcjh22 2 years, 7 months ago

Did anybody else hear about Missouri fans making NMT shirts or No Mom T for Thomas? How disgusting is that?

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Benjamin Piehler 2 years, 7 months ago

I've heard about the "no mom Tom" shirt rumors. All the Mizzou fans are walking away from that as far as I can tell. I'd be shocked if a shirt ever got made bc of the backlash it's getting... But it is seriously tasteless, even if it was only a consideration for a shirt.

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PurePierce 2 years, 7 months ago

jb writes the he isn't surprised by TT's offense. Actually, my wife and I have been surprised by his lack of offense the last three years. We saw him put up 47 at Penn Valley his freshman year, and his threes were from the NBA line.Yes, it was just pretty much a pickup league, but we saw Cole, Billy, Nick B., Brady, Tyrel, Mario, the Twins and more play, and none of them approached that number. Maybe he hasn't been a scorer because he was tagged a 1 and he concentrated on that. Now he seems to realize that he has to be a scorer for the team to succeed. Whatever the reason, I believe that we're seeing the real TT and we should be able to count on his output through the rest of the season.

Also, on Connor... I've seen him on several occasions seeming to have lost his man on breaks and he's had to scramble to get to him, often not soon enough. That's not an athletic thing, it's a focus thing.

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jaybate 2 years, 7 months ago

Very interesting insights on both players.

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Jeeveshawk 2 years, 7 months ago

He likes to get recruits that pay off in the long run. Tharpe will develop in time and will start on his junior or senior year. Look at TRob. As a freshman he couln't do jack**** and now he is in the lead for POY. Similar cases with the Morris twins and Jeff Withey. All three of them were terrible as freshmen and ended up as starters. More examples of this: Sherron Collins, Elijah Johnson, Travis Releford, Tyrel Reed, Brady Morningstar.

PS: Self is not a bad recruiter. Look at players he has snatched from the espnu100 such as: Brandon Rush, Chalmers, Selby, X. Henry, McLemore, TRob, Elijah, Perry Ellis, and Naadir Tharpe. (I know Thape is bad now but as I said he will get better, and he was a highly touted recruit).

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jaybate 2 years, 7 months ago

longtimehawk,

Do you really think Self recruits less talented players by choice? I reckon Self is smart enough to recognize the best players. And I reckon he would rather have the number 1 ranked recruit at each position than not. But there are 311 other coaches out there recruiting. And 10-20 of those coaches are pretty darned good. He has a little more competition for talent than say WalMart, or British Petroleum does, right? Coach Consonants and Roy and Calhoun and Boeheim don't always start 5 five stars, do they? Roy fell to .500 two years back, didn't he? What's up here? Self is the winningest coach the last five seasons. Wins 84%. Has a ring. Has a great class incoming. Doing fine this year. And in the age of checkbook recruiting, when either KU ain't paying as well, or at all. Conner walked on. Some guys didn't sign. He got some PT after 5 years. Be grateful. We need him.

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Jeeveshawk 2 years, 7 months ago

Walmart has to compete with target. BP has to compete with Royal Dutch Shell.

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