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Wednesday, February 8, 2012

Keegan

Styles of Self, Drew differ

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— Kansas and Baylor — two of three schools that, along with Missouri, headed into the week with a share of first place in the Big 12 basketball standings — illustrate that not all programs in the top 10 in the national rankings take the same path.

KU coach Bill Self’s way has worked better and for longer than BU coach Scott Drew’s, but it’s difficult to argue with Drew’s method at the moment since his team, which features McDonald’s All-Americans Perry Jones III, Quincy Miller and several other serious talents, is ranked sixth in the country.

Self, coaching without a McDonald’s All-American on the roster for the first time since his 1999-2000 Tulsa squad, has power forward Thomas Robinson, a national player of the year candidate, and point guard Tyshawn Taylor, a first-team All-Big 12 contender, three juniors with pretty good talent, and sixth and seventh men recruited to KU as walk-ons. The Jayhawks are ranked seventh in the nation.

In recent years, Drew has hit more recruiting grand slams than Self, who wins more than Drew.

Based on how it looks from the outside, Drew must promise starting assignments to top recruits. Self makes his players earn spots, the best means of getting them to do what he wants. It’s not what a coach wants his players to do that separates coaches. It’s getting all five players on the court to do what he wants them to do that makes a coach stand above peers.

The best means of achieving that is to ride players and withhold playing time until they stop fighting the coach and play intensely and unselfishly. Once Marcus and Markieff Morris understood doing it the coach’s way was the only way, they shot up the draft boards and became lottery picks.

Given the comparative traditions — Clyde Lovellette, Wilt Chamberlain, Jo Jo White, Danny Manning, Paul Pierce, James Naismith, Phog Allen, Larry Brown, Roy Williams and Self for Kansas; Terry Teagle for Baylor — Self has a recruiting advantage enhanced when figuring in the home-court atmospheres.

A Tuesday night Google of “Baylor basketball tradition” showed three results, compared to “about 23,600” for “Kansas basketball tradition.”

Drew closes that gap by exploiting the instant-gratification society in which we live.

If self-improvement and a long and lucrative pro career are the motivating factors in a high school superstar’s decision, Self has more to sell.

Coming out of high school in 2010, Jones (ranked ninth by Rivals) already had been branded a potential No. 1 overall pick. Robinson, ranked 31st in his class, was considered a “maybe” as an NBA prospect. Most draft projections now have the shorter Robinson, who has learned more in his basketball education, listed ahead of Jones.

Comments

kusayzone 2 years, 6 months ago

Nice article Tom. It does lay it on the table, and if you throw in HCBS's win/ loss record, offensive and defensive numbers, one has to be glad to be a Jayhawk!

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CrodieBroyle 2 years, 6 months ago

wow yep im sold they are about equals as coaches. Nice try simpleton

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BigBlue4KU 2 years, 6 months ago

And six more elite eights, a doxen more sweet sixteens and an 83.3% winning percentage versus ?60 something? for Drew. I don't think there is any question whatsoever that Coach Self"s program is more consistent and more consistent than Drew's. Frankly, Maxhawk, you like Drew better, be a Bear!

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Sam Constance 2 years, 6 months ago

Does it hurt to think with such a feeble mind?

I won't even dive into all the problems with your post because when someone posts something THAT stupid, you have to chalk it up to willful ignorance or just being intentionally obtuse for the sake of grinding an axe.

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Dyrk Dugan 2 years, 6 months ago

no. he was a top 40 player when recruited by UA.

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jhox 2 years, 6 months ago

My guess is that Drew promises (and delivers) a lot more than playing time. Why else would all of these elite players go to a school that has proven nothing on the court? I've heard that fellow Big 12 coaches talk a lot about what's going on at Baylor, and don't much like it.

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Brian Leiker 2 years, 6 months ago

This is a fact. They hate him and he's a dirty recruiter. Knight confronted him in the restroom one year and told him to cut the crap. Bottom line is that he pays players and it will eventally come out and the " good christian school" can start from scratch again.

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JayhawkPhil13 2 years, 6 months ago

Don't forget that Baylor has Robert Griffin III (the HEISMAN TROPHY WINNER) and Brittany Greiner - the mammoth women's basketball prospect. I don't think it's coincidence that the "good christian school" has some of the top prospects in the country in Football and Men's/Women's basketball.

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Steve Reigle 2 years, 6 months ago

This article should be included in whatever KU information packet is sent to prospects.

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justinryman 2 years, 6 months ago

Bill Self a man, a coach with class. He carries himself in a manner that not only makes his fans proud, but his players, his bosses and I'm sure his family.

Scott Drew, tries to show up the other coach, walking his team back into the tunnel while the home team is being introduced. Uses the media to whine about things not going his way.

Bill Self is first rate and isn't looking for the next big paycheck, just ask Boone. Scott Drew I'm not so sure about, he almost seems to have that Calapari thing going for him. I guess time will tell on that though.

Glad to have coach Self and his staff at Kansas, that is for sure.

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blowhard 2 years, 6 months ago

Baylor: Both Men's and Women's teams are in the Top 10 while a guy on the football team wins the Heisman Trophy...what a remarkable accomplishment for the Baylor Athletic Department...nothing like this ever happened in the good ol' corrupt days of the Southwest Conference, now did it?

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dmc67 2 years, 6 months ago

As a Jayhawk living in Texas, I admire what Coach Drew has done. Baylor was a joke after Bliss's scandal and he has brought them back to national relevance. Just read that BU got a committment from the Gather's kid that we were recruiting also. Does he promise these highly touted recruits immediate playing time? My guess is yes. Does that make how he recruits wrong? No. As long as the kid qualifies academically and doesn't receive monies and preferential treatment from the school and alumni, I have no issue with these recruiting tactics. Jayhawk fans are under the idea that every school should do it like Bill does. There are very few schools that have the luxury of playing in the #1 venue for college basketball, with our incredible history, and with a fan base that he places basketball as a priority over other sports. I used to sit about 15 rows from the court for Baylor and Tech games in Texas. Tonight, I will be in the second to last row with probably 1,000 other Jayhawk fans. We used to outnumber the Baylor fans 2:1. To compare Drew to Calipari, with his complete disregard for academic and eligibility standards, I think is a little extreme. Hope to hear a little Rock Chalk tonight.

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flyingfinn 2 years, 6 months ago

Drew is trying to go the Callipari route, needs a new hair style with a ton of oil but he is getting there.

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REHawk 2 years, 6 months ago

Regardless of the outcome in Waco this evening, the Kansas squad plays under the mentorship of the best head coach in Division I hoops. When Roy Williams walked out the door, the Spirit of the Phog continued to smile graciously over the Jayhawk Nation.

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Phoggie_Thinking 2 years, 6 months ago

Not sure if I like an article like this coming out on gameday. Seems that it could be more fodder for the other guys, but here we go.

This is surely another proof that LJW does not work for KU. Which is a good thing.

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budsitz 2 years, 6 months ago

Anyone who has followed Homer Drew and his sons, knows that they are all class acts. Nothing speaks more to his character, than Scott's willingness to step into the disaster and start the process of building a longterm basketball powerhouse. Simply put, Scott is a very successful recruiter and his teams play hard. They also stay out of trouble and graduate. I would think that would warrant praise - not a one-sided comparison against Bill Self. Over the next few years, Waco may be a harder place for an opposing team to win than Lawrence. In any event, this group of KU guards are not tough enough on defense or the offensive boards to win in Waco. I mean, when was the last time you saw any of the KU guards take a charge? When was the last time you saw Johnson or Teahan drive to the basket and get to the foul line? The key will be Reilford and Withey. When KU plays well, he is the one getting to the 50/50 ball and coming up with critical offensive rebounds. Jeff has to have a good offensive game.

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jhawkrulz 2 years, 6 months ago

You lost me, when you said that Waco may be a harder place for an opposing team to win than Lawrence. Last time I checked they've already lost a home game this year.

as a Point of reference Baylor has lost 9 home games in the past 2.5 years (still counting). KU has lost 4 home games under Bill Self (9 years). Additionally, under BS coached teams he has only lost 10 games (14 years).

Baylor has moved forward, but has a long way to go to keep the competitive nature going.

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swavity 2 years, 6 months ago

I disagree with his post anyway and he definitely sold KU's guards short, but he's not saying that Baylor has a greater crowd advantage - just that it may be harder to pick up a win there in the next few years.

I hope Jayhawk fans realize that however good Allen Fieldhouse may be, KU ultimately wins there because they have talented, well-coached teams. And the results of nine years ago have nothing whatsoever to KU's chances of winning next year, which will be deeper but lacking Robinson and Taylor.

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Sam Constance 2 years, 6 months ago

That's a bit of a reductionist take on why AFH is such a hard place to play.

Talent and coaching are good, but there are lots of talented, well-coached teams that don't enjoy the consistent, frenzied, overbearing presence of fans that AFH enjoys.

There's a reason that KU's recent 69-game home winning streak was the longest of it's kind in quite awhile in college basketball. I would be surprised to see Kentucky (who owns the active streak right now at 49) get to 69, seeing as how there haven't been many that were that long in recent memory.

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Sam Constance 2 years, 6 months ago

1) I would contend that a lot of Drew's teams don't play as hard as the could/should, and that is why his uber-talented teams of recent memory have faded out down the stretch.

2) Stepping in to coach at Baylor in light of the murder scandal might demonstrate high character... or it might demonstrate a young coach's desire to get a head coaching opportunity at a D-I school, and this was the best option to come along. I don't know the man, but I don't think using negative recruiting tactics speaks very highly of character.

3) Let's start with Baylor going through a SINGLE season without a home loss before we strike up the band and declare Waco a tougher place to play than one of the toughest venues to win at in the entire country.

4) So, a team that rates #3 in the country in defensive efficiency doesn't have tough enough perimeter defense to win in.... Waco? Personally, I don't want to see our GUARDS trying to draw charges except in special circumstances. Falling down is not playing defense.

5) I've seen KU players drive to the basket quite a bit. But you're right that we haven't gotten much benefit of the whistle. I've lost count of the number of times a KU player has gone up for a score and been contacted--an occurrence that has traditionally resulted in a near automatic "and one" opportunity--without so much as a sound from the officials.

6) Final Note: part of the reason the comparison is "one sided" is because of the stratification of the two men's accomplishments.

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Robert Murphy 2 years, 6 months ago

At least you were right about Withey, but not much else.

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jhawkrulz 2 years, 6 months ago

Drew Scott has done a lot for the program at Baylor. No one can dismiss his ability to recruit. I would also believe that prior to his arrival he could promise playing time to future recruits because he was able to quickly evaluate that the talent he had wasn't adequate for the Big XII level. I think you could say the same of Charlie Weis at KU, he was able to quickly eliminate certain players because of the lack of ability to play at the D1 level. One key difference is managing talent once you get it. To me this has always been what Bill Self (and the legacy KU Coaches) have been able to do. It is really hard to have a bench of 15 and manage who gets playing time and who doesn't. It is difficult to tell a player as talented as Releford (among others) that red-shirting when he could start anywhere in the nation that is good for him. KU last year got caught up on the NBA lockout, indecision by players wanting to leave early, and a couple of curve balls, but I think that BS clearly goes after the top recruits and gets them. Baylor has been able to deliver on the recruits, but clearly their teams have underperformed over the past few years. It'll be interesting, if KU and MU beat them twice and a couple of other loses, with as this article mentions, prospects dropping in draft status, don't think that Baylor's success will become a tradition.

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jaybate 2 years, 6 months ago

Homer Drew has won 60% of his games and a third of them at Bethel College. From 94 to 04 he won five titles in a weak conference and so got automatic bids to the the NCAA, where he went out in the first round 6 times and got to the Sweet 16 once. Since 04, he has been .500 in the same week conference. He took a year off to let the university hire his son, who then promptly bailed on Valpo for a motion play to Baylor.

Homer Drew got cancer.

The Valpo job went to his son, Bryce, next.

Bryce Drew played for his father and coached for his father. Bryce was Indiana's Mr. Basketball in high school. He did get drafted and play a few seasons in the L. As an assistant, he returned to assist Homer in 04-05 and participated in coaching Valpo to .500 basketball for a number of years, before being promoted to head coach this year, when his father reportedly got prostate cancer. As a head coach, this season, he is 17-8, which is a major improvement over the previous several years of .500 ball.

Scott? He is 165-128. He has turned around a scandal ridden program, and in the process reputedly encountered some accusations of inappropriate recruiting himself, about the time his level of talent he recruited conspicuously began to improve sharply. IMHO, the jury is still out on Scott Drew.

if you believe that hiring your own sons is a virtue, Home Drew is a class act.

If you believe in .500 ball, a short run of titles in a weak conference, early outs in the Madness, and a recent decade of .500 ball are signs of a class act, then Homer Drew is your quintessential class act.

If you believe that one 3.4 finished season at 17-8 is sufficient evidence to call a person a class act, then Bryce Drew is a class act.

If you believe that Scott's 165-128 record, coupled with a sudden improvement in talent levels recruited coinciding with a sudden improvement in winning percentage the last 4 years, plus some reputed accusations of program improprieties in basketball defines a class act, then Scott Drew is a class act.

The question is: do you?

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justanotherfan 2 years, 6 months ago

I don't know if the Drew's are class acts or not because I don't know them personally. What I do know is that they can coach some basketball.

Homer was successful at Valparasio. He never made the jump from Valpo to a bigger conference because he never wanted to. If you are at a school like Valpo, in the MAC, or Southland, or Southern, or America East, Big Sky, West Coast or any number of other small to middle major conferences, the expectations are conference titles and an occasional NCAA win or run to the Sweet 16. That's it. Nobody coaching at St. Mary's, Long Beach State, Murray State or the like can truly say they will get to the Round of 16 regularly. They will generally grab a seed between 6 and 12, meaning that every game they play will be against either a conference champ from a solid conference or an at large team with a decent resume. They are rarely favored, so to win even a handful of NCAA games as a midmajor coach is quite an accomplishment.

Scott Drew inherited a Baylor team where the best player was Aaron Bruce. Yes, that Aaron Bruce. The last time they had been to the NCAA tournament, Gene Iba was the coach. Scott took a Baylor program on the brink of being shut down (yes, SHUT DOWN) and has made them a NCAA team and more recently, a top 25 team. Anthony Jones was his first big hit on the recruiting trail. LaceDarrius Dunn was barely a top 100 player. Tweety Carter was about the same. Remember, Baylor missed on Darrell Arthur, or we might have been having this conversation about BU much earlier than now.

In the beginning yes, he could promise playing time because Baylor had few quality players. Now though, that roster is pretty legitimate. They have actual high major caliber players up and down the roster. There was a time when no one on Baylor's roster could have made KU's rotation. Now though, they have guys that could legitimately play at KU.

Like I said, don't know if he's a class act or not, but he turned a program that was all but dead around and made them respectable, which is quite a feat.

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Chris Shaw 2 years, 6 months ago

I am just curious, Jaybate, why does Homer Drew and for that fact, Bryce Drew, have to be mentioned in the same breathe and sarcastic negative rant when speaking of Scott Drew?

I mean, I understand the negativity that comes with Scott Drew. It is a known fact that Scott Drew "Negatively" recruits against other schools and that has been documented. It also has been documented that he isn't the most liked coach in the conference.

Look, I'm not a big Scott Drew fan because of his recruiting tactics, and his public lack of respect for other instituitions through the media. I know he's an ultra competitive guy, but I also believe he could have used some different paths in order to try and succeed and get his piece of the pie.

I respect Scott Drew for taking on an almost impossible job as justanotherfan states in his post. However, I just don't get why Homer Drew and now his son Bryce, in his first season (10-3 and 17-8 overall) gets to be apart of the negativity associated with Scott Drew. IMO, I think that's unfair.

Homer Drew is one of the classiest coaches in his profession and it's been documented by coaches all across the country. For 12 years the "Big Boys" did not want to play Valpo and Homer Drew. IMO, Homer did things the right way and to belittle him and Bryce, in his first non full year of coaching at Valpo, is a little unfair.

The expectations of succeeding at Valpo or schools like that in a "Weak Conference" are different than trying to turn around a dead end program (Literally almost dead program) in a BCS conference. Again, I'm not condoning the path in which Scott Drew has taken over the last 4 years to achieve that success, but I respect him for he's done for Baylor considering where they were not even 10 years ago. Pretty amazing actually.

Just because they are family and related doesn't mean Homer and Bryce deserve to be knocked down on their accomplishments. Everybody has their own path and so let's let Scott Drew keep his path and keep it to that.

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BrockIII 2 years, 6 months ago

I've heard that Bryce isn't the biggest champion of Scott. I'm not sure if that is accurate, but Scott has rubbed a lot of coaches the wrong way.

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Alex Berger 2 years, 6 months ago

Here's to guessing that most of those recruits out there don't know who Clyde Lovellette or Jo Jo White are.

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Andy Tweedy 2 years, 6 months ago

Maybe, but I know FOR SURE that I don't know who Terry Teagle is...

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Kye Clark 2 years, 6 months ago

Yeah thanks. We saw your post at the top of the page.

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Scott Smetana 2 years, 6 months ago

Drew somehow recruits and gets incredible talent.
However, how many times have they underperformed?
How many times have they even made the tourney with this incredible talent? They hands down have the best talent in the league this year and likely won't win the league or make it past the sweet 16.

Therefore, I truly think Drew is one of the worst coaches in the game. Anyone disagree?

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jaybate 2 years, 6 months ago

I don't think he's the worst. I just don't see much evidence of a class act.

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jaybate 2 years, 6 months ago

I don't think he's the worst. I just don't see much evidence of a class act.

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dmc67 2 years, 6 months ago

If he has the best talent in the Big 12, he wouldn't be labeled as one of the worst coaches. The guy recruits very well. Doesn't get much out of them. But realize, his All-American Talent comes from the state of Texas. If you have this kind of talent in a Texas HS, no defense is played. You take your stud, run them up and down the floor, and outscore your opponents. Remember Shady. An incredible talent. Had very little interest in playing defense, thought that going for the crowd pleasing block was defense. So as a "on the floor" coach, I would say he isn't all that. But being a head coach is recruiting and coaching and I would not classify Coach Drew as one of the worst coaches. If I remember correctly, Baylor was in the Elite 8 against Duke two years ago. Was Guy Lewis or Jerry Tark a great coach or an incredible recruiter? As much as I like Coach Self, if he had Texas Tech's talent, we would be talking about his inability to coach.

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jhawkrulz 2 years, 6 months ago

I agree.

one of the best recruiters. One of the worst Xs and Os coaches.

It'll be interesting to see if he can continue to recruit as his teams continue to fail in expectations. I'm going with a 4th place finish in the Big XII this year.

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Ethan Berger 2 years, 6 months ago

Well recruiting is part of being a coach for that alone he can't be one of the worst. I also disagree with him being one of the worst x and o's coach. He came into a team that was completely broken. Teammates killing each other. He got some talent and also got them to the tourney for the first time in a long time. The best couple of years is the only time they have started to get elite talent. Remember after UNC won their most recent titles, the following year they went to the NIT. Does that make Roy a horrible coach. Its not like Baylor is doing bad this year, He had to build without a foundation. I don't thinks it is fair to label him a horrible coach.

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Jason Keller 2 years, 6 months ago

Scott Drew is garbage. Complete garbage. Lyer and a cheater. Don't worry Scotty, the Jayhawks will keep you on ESPN tonight.

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REHawk 2 years, 6 months ago

budsitz, I do not recall LaceDarius staying out of trouble. Jones III was grounded for a spell this season. Class act at AFH a couple of years ago, removing his players from the pre-game floor? S.c.o.t.t Drew? Are we talking about the same guy?

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Chris Shaw 2 years, 6 months ago

One other thing people, things do change over time. You have to remember how much dislike there was initially when Coach K started impeding into the holy grail of UNC and Dean Smith.

Coach K IMO is a lot like Scott Drew way back in the day except the technology world documents everything these days so "Fans" get a more up close look and the behind the scenes inner workings.

UNC and Dean Smith claimed all sorts of stuff on Coach K. However, over time Coach K got his piece of the pie and is now as respected a coach as there is in the game. Jaybate, I already know what you're going to say about "Ratface" Coach K! LMAO!

Again, I'm not trying to compare Coach K and Scott Drew directly, but their situations when they took over really bad programs were and some of the same things that UNC fans were saying about Coach K are essentially the same things that KU fans are saying about Scott Drew.......................It's just that it's more documented now so there is more of a leg to stand on when dipicting somebody.

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Sam Constance 2 years, 6 months ago

Worth noting... UNC and The Former Kansas Kid--who shall forever remain nameless (TFKK)--ran a "smear campaign" of sorts on Coach K, but the negative feedback about Scott Drew hasn't come directly from Kansas or it's head coach, and has been a prevailing opinion in the minds of multiple coaches.

I just don't want to imply that Drew has gotten a bum rap similar to how Coach K did.

There seems to be a difference (to me) between one school--the "top dog" in conference--making a point to take an up-and-coming coach down a notch and a coach having a general reputation for playing "dirty", or at least "smarmy".

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Chris Shaw 2 years, 6 months ago

I agree with that! I mean, the entire conference was against Coach K at that early time in the 80's and I think the same can be said about Baylor and Coach Drew at the moment.

I shouldn't have singled out KU or just UNC in that description.

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Chris Shaw 2 years, 6 months ago

I also agree with the second part of your post as well! With that said, I think with anything when you have a dominate power like Kansas in the Big 12 or UNC in the ACC and you have somebody very very motivated to steal some thunder and take some piece of the pie.........................I think it's inevitable that negativity doesn't come out of it. I think that's the hard part in the path in which you take because nobody likes giving up their share of success.

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JayHawkFanToo 2 years, 6 months ago

This is a very poorly researched piece. You cannot write an article that compares HC Self with Scott Drew and not mention all the questionable tactics used by Drew. Google "Scott Drew cheating" and you will get over 400,000 hits, Here is one article that explores just the tip of the iceberg:

http://sports.espn.go.com/dallas/ncb/columns/story?columnist=caplan_jeff&id=4979714

Drew is following on Calipari's footsteps and it is just a matter of time (and if there is justice in this world) before they are both busted.

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BReakinggOOd 2 years, 6 months ago

Yes, Self & Drew differ greatly. Bill Self can coach AND recruit. And once again, it appears Scott Drew can ONLY recruit.

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REHawk 2 years, 6 months ago

What's Drew's winning record now in his years at Baylor. around 60%? I'm betting that Fred Hoiberg the Mayor posts 10% better numbers than that if he stays 8 years at Ames. Drew appears to rely heavily upon Decision by Committee in his gametime interaction with assistants. The guy can recruit...presumably because he can guarantee top 20 recruits starting minutes, right from the getgo. However, as an Xs and Os tactician, he can't climb above 5.5 on the Bill Self Ten Point Scale.

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