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Tuesday, February 7, 2012

Despite loss, Jayhawks move up (!) in poll

Kansas head coach Bill Self protests a call against the Jayhawks during the second half on Saturday, Feb. 4, 2012 at Mizzou Arena.

Kansas head coach Bill Self protests a call against the Jayhawks during the second half on Saturday, Feb. 4, 2012 at Mizzou Arena.

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Bill Self isn’t a bit surprised his Kansas University basketball team, which lost on Saturday at Missouri, actually jumped a spot from No. 8 to 7 in this week’s AP poll.

He’s in agreement with voters that the Jayhawks (18-5, 8-2) are a better team today than before Saturday’s 74-71 setback in Mizzou Arena.

“Three things we left the game with ... a.) They are really good; b.) We’ve got to close; and c.) We’re really good,” Self said Monday.

He sounded a lot more upbeat than after one of KU’s five losses this season — 80-74 to Davidson on Dec. 19 in Sprint Center in Kansas City, Mo.

“After Davidson? It was, ‘They’re good. We stink. We’re soft. We don’t care. We don’t like each other.’ I don’t feel that. If anything, I’m leaving Columbia thinking, ‘Hey we’ve got a chance to have a really good team,’’’ Self said.

“When we left Davidson, my deal was, ‘We may not win a league game.’ I feel a lot of positives in leaving Missouri. I didn’t see any positives in getting our butt beat in Kansas City.”

He had great praise Monday for his two veteran leaders — Thomas Robinson, who scored 25 points and grabbed 13 rebounds in 35 minutes versus MU, and Tyshawn Taylor, who had 21 points, three assists and six turnovers in 38 minutes.

“He’s getting to where he can put the ball down and get to the hole a lot better,” Self said of the 6-foot-10 Robinson, who on Monday was one of 20 players named to the midseason watch list for the Oscar Robertson Trophy, which goes to college basketball’s player of the year as voted by the U.S. Basketball Writers Association.

“He has a great heart, good motor, tries hard. He’s a stud kid having a tremendous year. His second half against Missouri (19 points, six boards) is as good a half as a guy’s played that I’ve seen. He didn’t get easy baskets. He had to earn every one of them. I’m proud of him because he’s developed into a force.”

Of the 6-3 Taylor, Self said: “That kid played great. If I had it to do all over again, I’d want him on the free-throw line more than anybody else on our team. He likes that moment more than anybody else (despite missing two down the stretch as KU squandered an eight-point lead).

“I don’t have anything remotely negative to say,” Self added. “He lost the ball once, and he charged once, and I know he wishes he could have that back. The first half I thought he played so well (17 points) that we had a couple of bad possessions, because he was feeling it too much. We’d call a play, and he said, ‘Well, I see an opening.’ If we call a play, run the play and then see the opening after you run the play.

“That’d be the only thing that I could say from his floor game, going into the last three minutes, that I’d say, ‘He could improve on that.’ I was so mad at him because Phil Pressey, who is a terrific guard, gets past him and makes a layup on a made basket. Other than that, defensively, pretty good.”

KU will meet No. 6 Baylor (21-2, 8-2) at 6 p.m. Wednesday in Ferrell Center in Waco, Texas.

Losing is no fun: KU has dropped five games this season. KU lost just three games in both Taylor’s junior campaign and sophomore year after an eight-loss freshman season.

“I’m not used to this losing thing. I don’t like how it feels. I don’t even know how to handle it,” Taylor said. “I don’t know what I’m supposed to do, how I’m supposed to act. I’m sure my teammates feel the same way. When we take an ‘L,’ we’ve got to watch tape, learn from mistakes and get better from what we did the previous game.”

Perry Ellis is No. 1: A Wichita Eagle double-check of the record books shows that future KU forward Perry Ellis of Wichita Heights is the all-time leading scorer in Wichita City League history.

It had been reported that Ellis needed 38 points to pass former KU center Greg Dreiling’s 31-year-old record of 1,963 points. The paper now reports that Dreiling of Kapaun scored 1,888 points from 1977-81. Ellis has 1,926 points, meaning he broke Dreiling’s record during Heights’ Jan. 24 win over Kapaun. Ellis’ accomplishment will be recognized during Heights’ next home game on Feb. 17.

“Congratulations to Perry Ellis on his accomplishment, one that came two weeks earlier than we thought,” the Wichita Eagle, official statisticians of the City League, wrote Monday.

Others on the Oscar Robertson watch list with Robinson: Harrison Barnes, North Carolina; Isaiah Canaan, Murray State; Anthony Davis, Kentucky; Marcus Denmon, Missouri; Daymond Green, Michigan State; John Henson, North Carolina; John Jenkins, Vanderbilt; Kevin Jones, West Virginia; Michael Kidd-Gilchrist, Kentucky; Jeremy Lamb, UConn; Perry Jones, Baylor; Damian Lillard, Weber State; Doug McDermott, Creighton; Mike Moser, UNLV; Arnett Moultrie, Mississippi State; Mike Scott, Virginia; Jared Sullinger, Ohio State; Cody Zeller, Indiana; Tyler Zeller, North Carolina.

Comments

jayhawker_97 3 years, 6 months ago

i couldn't agree more with coach Self on this one:

“Three things we left the game with ... a.) They are really good; b.) We’ve got to close; and c.) We’re really good,” Self said Monday.

those who are still looking for someone in the team to blame (yes, i still blame the f* refs), you are pathetic losers. we earned the spot. period. BU better watch out. it'll be another blow-out game.

r o c k c h a l k!!

JayHok 3 years, 6 months ago

I read on a Sports Illustrated site last night that Don Daily lives pretty close to Columbia. That explains a lot. Can't get over that ear to ear grin handshake with their AD.

cklarock 3 years, 6 months ago

Of course he was grinning. Beating Kansas . . . even once . . . bought him another year of job security, and he's going to need it once they start taking weekly beatings next football season.

JayHok 3 years, 6 months ago

Actually the AD wasn't grinning ear to ear. Don Daily was. After the half hug high five handshake Alden broke out a brief grin then tried to conceal it.

Daily has t-shirts in his closet.

Krohnutz 3 years, 6 months ago

Don Daily is a piece of $hit. That is all.

Make sure to "rate this ref" here:

http://statsheet.com/mcb/referees/don-daily/map

Mike Kendall 3 years, 6 months ago

JayHok----

I was pretty harsh on the officials. Like Self, I feel a little upbeat after the poll had us moving up one spot.

Having said that------you did not need to tell me that Daily lives pretty close to Columbia. That is totally unbelievable!

Mike Kendall 3 years, 6 months ago

And one more thing. . . . . . God be with him, if he is doing the re-match in Lawrence!

JayHok 3 years, 6 months ago

Mikendal---- here's where I'm coming from on this. I think you and Self are handling this in the proper way getting over it and seeing the bigger picture.

Me I'm a different story. As long as I live I will never consider that game a loss. That Robinson foul all by itself which Vitale called bad bad bad bad bad bad horrible call, swung the game from a comfortable 10-15 point walk away victory to a nailbiter of an ending.

Robinson did absolutely nothing wrong.

Yes Kansas could have handled the horrendous call better.

When all is said and done, that call by itself allowed a chain of events to unfold. We would have been up 10 or 11 with under 2:00 to go.

MU would not have rushed down the court with momentum on their side to jack up a 3.

Robinson wouldn't have played scared the rest of the 2 minutes with 4 fouls.

With a 10 point lead the final 90 seconds, we would have made multiple trips to the free throw line and that's a wrap whether it ends up being a 7 point win or 15 would have been incosequiential.

I will never give MU credit for that win. Immediately after games I have given Bucknell credit, VCU credit, Bradley, Richmond, Iowa State and all the other two point losses.

But not this one. Don Daily better not step one foot into Allen Fieldhouse ever again.

Krohnutz 3 years, 6 months ago

I'm with you. We all know, and Dickie V. knows but cannot say, that KU won that game.

Certain things in sports we know happened. We know Barry Bonds took steroids. We know college sports pay their athletes. We knew Gene Keady wore a toupee. And we know that Missouri lost that game.

fan4ever 3 years, 6 months ago

Everyone, including the AP sportswriters, who saw the last 2 minutes of that game saw the refs take that game away from KU, The calls that the refs made, including the wrong person call on Ratliff, should be reviewed by the Big 12. And then, appropriate actions taken so that those types of blatant calls don't happen to anyone in the Big 12. The conference deserves better than that.

AcesWild 3 years, 6 months ago

i think they should look look atthat to but i thing thing the charge call on robinson ,if the call was he hooked him then ,the big 12 has a problem my believe is if they can have federal invis cation on tickets there should be federal invis cation on fixing games. i no yhe the big 12 would do that. how much do thing m.u, was willing to pay trust this the big 12 league .that game mean the world .and it would be the first time m.u, has got paying someone.

bigjay83 3 years, 6 months ago

Now my brain hurts.

Or as you might say it,

"N oow bri,an off n o ur"s butt mie.n owie. Weed is good."

championhawks 3 years, 6 months ago

+1 holy sh..... I'm not sure what was even said there!

Dan Harris 3 years, 6 months ago

wtf! maybe a little less wacky tobacky and try proof reading next time.

KCJay 3 years, 6 months ago

I totally agree. The refs through the game. I don't mind losing if we play well and it is fair play. But when you have blatant calls like that, it will definitely change the momentum of the game. Which was the case in this game. So, what will they do other than a slap on the wrists? And that is not enough. They should be fined for their careless or intentional behavior, placed on probation and made to take courses to refresh their talent(?). Then put them in the lower profile games until they can distinguish between what is right and wrong. West Va had a similar experience at the end of their game against Syracuse. Why are these calls not challenged? Are they not allowed to go to the monitors and make the right call? Is there not a test for neutrality? This would never be allowed in the championship game, so why now?

fan4ever 3 years, 6 months ago

Everyone, including the AP sportswriters, who saw the last 2 minutes of that game saw the refs take that game away from KU, The calls that the refs made, including the wrong person call on Ratliff, should be reviewed by the Big 12. And then, appropriate actions taken so that those types of blatant calls don't happen to anyone in the Big 12. The conference deserves better than that.

planojayhawk 3 years, 6 months ago

Without any reviews on any of the ref's bad calls by the conference,officials, it looks to me these refs, like doctors, have the most security in their jobs, unlike most of us who work in other professions, we are always being judged by how well we do our jobs.

jayhawkinoregon 3 years, 6 months ago

I'm not expecting a blowout at Baylor. They are a good team and it is their home court. Coming away with a win, even by a single point, will feel very good. Go Hawks!!!

KU_Alumn_2000 3 years, 6 months ago

That Missouri loss was one of the hardest KU losses I've ever dealt with. It just really pisses me off. Blood is still boiling...and I think Self's is too.

I'm sick of talking about how good this team is. Like the fact that Self is sticking up for T-Rob and Taylor...but lets quit talking about how good we are.

How about getting a little bit pissed off...get focused...get some freaking blood in your eye...and go out and dominate this conference from here on out. No mercy on Baylor...and no mercy on Mizcrap when they come to Lawrence. Beat them by more than 20...and do it again in the conference tournament.

It's time for Relaford and EJ to STEP UP ! No high fives...no smiles...no happy emotion from here on out...just freaking go out and dominate.

Keith Kienzle 3 years, 6 months ago

we play better when we are having fun. highfive, smile, and execute like we know how.

tis4tim 3 years, 6 months ago

Agree. A clear mind will do more for the prospects of this team than one filled with rage. That doesn't mean one can't get pi**ed about the loss and work hard to get better during practice, but on the court, during the game, the boys need to play with a free mind.

Ethan Berger 3 years, 6 months ago

UCONN is playing angry and they aren't doing so good. The worst thing you can do is take out the fun in the game. We lost, get over it. They will learn

Mike Bratisax 3 years, 6 months ago

Nicely stated KU_Alumn_2000!

No excuses, no crying over calls.. We let that game slip away.

The refs didn't block our FTs. The refs didn't force us to revert to individual play over team play.

Did the refs suck? No doubt, but that's not why we lost.

Nick Cole 3 years, 6 months ago

Posted these videos on another article, but thought it would be nice for all to see. Spread the love.

http://www.twitvid.com/SF3OZ - Is it normal for the refs to shake the AD's hand in the tunnel after the game, or do I smell a Frank Haith/mizzou NCAA violation cooking already?

http://youtu.be/Bn2PRN8BCvQ - Why does the ref look so d@#n excited to make both of these calls? And the first one, against T-Rob, the ref was out of position with two players standing in front of him blocking his view.

Get up big on Baylor, and close . it . out!!!

KU_Alumn_2000 3 years, 6 months ago

Guess I agree with Vitale. T-Rob's charge was not a charge. Taylor's could of gone either way...but it was probably a charge.

Whats weird about Athletic Director Alden...is that he's not even watching the end of the game. How can you not be watching the end of a KU - MU game...only to be standing in the tunnel waiting to shake the officials hands ? Especially when the game is on the line like that. I don't know what to think.

Doubt that there will be an NCAA violation though.

brooksmd 3 years, 6 months ago

TT's charge was bogus also. ESPN replayed an overhead view of it and it was clearly evident that the Mizzou player was still moving. Don't care for Dickie V too much but he called both of those as bad calls. And if you noticed the ref making the call was very exuberant in his motion like he was trying to be the center of attention.

Dan Harris 3 years, 6 months ago

somebody posted a picture of TT's "charge" on here a couple of days ago. You can clearly see the Mizzu guy not set, plus leaning left and forward into TT

tis4tim 3 years, 6 months ago

"Self didn't help up a ref in Ames just to secure a future favor, did he?"

Well, if he did, the referee's association failed to pass around the memo to those presiding over the Mizzou game.

Sam Constance 3 years, 6 months ago

I've heard that comment from the Misery fans as well, and that has actually made me see the humor in all of this.

Because if you watch closely, Robinson's elbow technically never comes into contact with Steve Moore. If you pause the video at 00:30, you can see that Robinson's and Moore's shoulders make contact, as well as their legs, up near the thigh/waist area. But the elbow slides right on around Moore without touching him.

By the way, the idiot zebra who made that call had to step around a KU and MU player to make the call, because they were RIGHT IN HIS WAY when the play occurred. I can accept refs missing calls. I can't accept refs making calls they have no business making. THAT is the kind of thing that there needs to be discipline from the league office on.

jakejayhawk 3 years, 6 months ago

Thanks for posting these. First, I agree with konkeyDong, the video with the refs, imo, is evidence of nothing. The AD is part of the business end of hiring and paying the refs.

But the video you post of the call on TRob for charging is a view I did not observe in the live game. I thought the call was terrible at the time, especially with the previous play at the other end when they called a defensive foul. I realize the circumstances of the two were different, but that blocking foul on TRob was terrible. He stood still with his hands up. The only thing he could have done differently was walk off the court and get out of the way. The man did not commit a foul.

Then to back up that call with the charging call was an injustice. Now that I see the ref's position it is even more troubling. I know games are reviewed by the head officials but we almost never see real results. That ref was not in position and made a terrible call. Could the play be interpreted as a charge? Sure, there are always opinions both ways. But that man was not in position. I used to ref games from YMCA to high school. He did not have the call.

We lost. The calls influenced the results, but we lost. Giving up 11 straight points? Not scoring at all in that stretch? Two significant turnovers at clutch time? EJ looking terrified to shoot on the last play? We lost. But there should still be discipline for the poor call that influenced the game.

Chris Shaw 3 years, 6 months ago

I don't think either one of these videos is a big deal! Yeah, the T-Rob call is a bad call, but the Mike Alden video and the ref being excited to call a charge is a non issue IMO as well.

Even for a ref, the Kansas/Mizzou game was a big game. I'm almost certain that they were prepped on potential scenarios (Xavier/Cincy situations) and the fact this was the last time these two were playing.

With that said and the game on the line and two Bang/Bang plays...........I see nothing wrong with the official(s) showing a little extra emotion into the play. Both of those plays could have gone either way and at least he was "Selling" the play. Under the circumstances I didn't have a problem with it. If he's doing that in the first half than maybe, but everybody (Coaches, Players, Fans, and Officials) is "Excited" in that spot.

Nick Cole 3 years, 6 months ago

That's the problem with refs. They are the only people in the gym who are supposed to go unnoticed and be unbiased. Yet the calls these refs were making and playing to the crowd showed just the opposite, and is a problem. Officials, if they do their job well, are never talked about after the game. The simple fact that we are having a discussion about the in-game officiating (as is local and national media) is a problem, even if you don't mind it. I don't care how aware they are of the significance of the game, they should be the people in the gym who remain calm and call fouls when they seem them. They don't need to showboat just b/c players, fans, and coaches do it. I don't showboat at my job, and if I did, especially after making a huge mistake, I would probably be in some trouble. Yet these officials will go unpunished, and probably call a couple more KU games this year. If I were a player or coach (thank goodness I'm not), I would probably lose my temper and knock one of these officials out cold. That's how much this crap pisses me off.

John Randall 3 years, 6 months ago

The official wasn't "selling" the PLAY. He was selling his CALL, and the idea that he, not players, would decide the game.

Sam Constance 3 years, 6 months ago

I tend to agree with the thoughts that the first video--of Mike Alden shaking officials' hands in the tunnel after the game--is harmless and probably meaningless. That being said, two things about it are just... ...strange:

1) The first official comes through and gets a pretty businesslike handshake from Alden. However, right after that, at the 00:20 mark on the video, he does a little half-shug, "knowing" look towards the second official, and the two of them proceed to have a mini dialogue. The third ref then walks by and gets a buisinesslike handshake.

So... what was that look and dialogue about? Again, I trend towards believing it's a matter of perception that makes it look bad, but I just can't come up with a very good reason for it to have happened.

2) I would love find the answers to two questions: first, whether Mike Alden typically stands in the exit tunnel at the ends of games and shakes the hands of the officials, opposing team, etc... Second, how common is it for ADs in general to personally stand and greet people in the tunnel at the conclusion of a game.

Krohnutz 3 years, 6 months ago

I was pissed before, and I'm more pissed after.

Dirty bastards.

JayHok 3 years, 6 months ago

Missouri had nothing to do with it. Don Daily stuck it to Krohnutz. MU didn't win that game although I'll give them credit for taking advantage. Don Daily put the pieces in motion. Robinson's shot was good and that was the game right there. Don Daily didn't only take the points away, he for all purposes took Robinson out of the game by calling him for a foul he didn't commit.

This one play changed everything. It wasn't Missouri. It was Don Daily.

refugee 3 years, 6 months ago

Jakaar Sampson is visiting in a few weeks. There isn't a lot of info out there on him. It seems like we have a lot of kids that fit his profile already on the way. Do we have a scholarship for him? Anyone have any more info?

Jack Wilson 3 years, 6 months ago

The difference in Sampson, and the guys we have .. Wesley, Traylor, Lucas, Peters .. is that he is/was actually ranked in the top 140. Mid-50s. Slight difference, I would say.

I'm sure we would "find" a scholarship for him.

The recruiting sites have info on him. He signed with St. John's out of high school, did not qualify academically. KU had made him an offer. He went back to Brewster Academy. Rivals and other sites including

http://insider.espn.go.com/blog/dave-telep/post/_/id/322/jakarr-samson-expected-to-sign-late

Self's attempts to go after Sampson and Tony Parker demonstrates that he is not satisfied with the quality of his bigs.

refugee 3 years, 6 months ago

Thanks! How does he compare with Ellis? I see him as a lot like Ellis. Is a set with both on the floor a possibility with Peters/Lucas as the "5"? I'm so excited about the next two groups coming in. Greene, Ellis, Frankamp, McLemore, White, Adams, Peters... Is Tharpe the next Royce Woolridge?

Kye Clark 3 years, 6 months ago

"Is Tharpe the next Royce Woolridge?"

I could see that. The one thing working in Tharpe's favor is the lack of a back-up point guard next year. EJ will in all likelihood be our starting PG, after that we have nothing, unless Self is banking on Anrio Adams to fill that role. He is described as more of a combo guard, and while Self certainly has had some success using those type of players and molding them into point guards, we know how he feels about freshman point guards. There is also some question as to whether he will qualify, which increases the likelihood that Tharpe is in Self's plans for next year.

My guess is the opportunity for him to see minutes next year off the bench will be enough to keep him around.

oldalum 3 years, 6 months ago

I've heard Self comment several times on how much a point guard has to learn his first year. He says the point guard has to be an extension of the coach on the floor. I'm sure he doesn't expect much from first year point guards for that reason. I'd look for the constant turnovers to fade away as Naadir gains knowledge and confidence.

refugee 3 years, 6 months ago

hope youre right kd.. It seems like we have lots of talent at the 2-3-4 spots for the next few years and a lot of bodies at the 4 1/2 a la Darnell Jackson. A big contribution from Tharpe makes it all really look solid..

Ben Simonett 3 years, 6 months ago

He's an obvious talent upgrade, but at what cost?

i'm getting just as weary about the academically shady kids being brough into the program as i am of the less talented ones. we just had 2 recruits sit out a year and now Self's pursuing ANOTHER kid with eligibility issues.

John Randall 3 years, 6 months ago

The eligibility issues had nothing to do with academics. Anderson, Traylor, Maclemore didn't have low grades – they switched prep/high shools so many times that the NCAA chose them (and KU's high profile) to fire a warning shot across the bow of the agent/runner/AAU/prep community with a totally specious designation of "partially qualified" for all three, knowing the Big12 policy would do the dirty work for them.

fansincewilt 3 years, 6 months ago

Self makes me feel a whole lot better. It's a shame that a game sometimes comes down to a ref's call like this one did but that is just a part of basketball. I think in the end the Jayhawks will go further than the Tigers but time will tell. Whatever happens, I think this team has exceeded most everyone's expectations. We cannot cry about the NCAA decision or the bad calls. This team hasn't and will benefit from that in the end. The guys are proving that they are pretty rough and tough.

jayhawkinATL 3 years, 6 months ago

Sorry, Coach, but I would rather have Withey at the line.

Kye Clark 3 years, 6 months ago

I thought the same thing reading that quote.

Scott Oswalt 3 years, 6 months ago

I agree 100%. Did Withey even take a shot in the MIzzou game?

Ron Franklin 3 years, 6 months ago

+1. I couldn't believe that he said that. I can't believe with 17.5 seconds left in the game, down by one, he didn't put Withey in. Huge coaching mistake in my opinion.

Ryan Michael 3 years, 6 months ago

In my opinion having Teahan on Denmon in the last few minutes was a massive coaching mistake...

Denmon was losing Teahan all night... Hell in the second half it looked like Missouri's entire gameplay was "go at Teahan he can't keep up".

From the 2:30 mark, Teahan loses Denmon 3 times for two 3's and an "and-1" giving Robinson a foul. All in about a minute.

Sometimes you just have to call a spade a spade. It's nothing personal, but if Teahan is seeing 20+ minutes going forward I don't really have much hope for the tournament.

Ron Franklin 3 years, 6 months ago

DId you see Teahan talk mad crap to Denmon after hitting a three with just over 4 minutes? Soon after Teahan did that, Denmon went on a rampage at the expense of Teahan. I officially despise Teahan after seeing him pull his arms back like a little girly-man while guarding that 2nd three from Denmon. DId you see that? He literally pulled his arms back instead of putting them in Denmons face and going for a block. Redonk.

Sam Constance 3 years, 6 months ago

Yes. I saw it.

And that is more unforgivable than ANY OTHER THING Teahan has ever done wrong on the court.

You are former walk-on Connor Teahan. You do not get to talk trash to ANYONE for doing the one thing you are on the team to do (make threes) in the first place. The only thing that would be worse than you talking trash for doing your job would be to talk trash to Missouri's best player, who is 10x the basketball player you are.

I have a lot less tolerance for that sh*t than I do for a turnover or a couple of missed free throws.

rwhawk 3 years, 6 months ago

If we make a couple of free throws or a field goal in the end, there's a good chance we are all laughing and enjoying the fact that Teahan hates MU so much that he, a former walk-on, was even trash talking in the game. Just sayin'.

LAJayhawk 3 years, 6 months ago

I believe that quote was more about instilling confidence in his All-American candidate point guard than about who he actually thinks is a better free throw shooter.

My $.02, anyway.

KansasComet 3 years, 6 months ago

We have ability. The question is confidence. Are we confident in each other when the games are tight? Who are our "go to" guys? Who should be on the bench when it is crunch time? Who do we want on the foul line? Those are questions that need to be answered going forward. I believe we have five players that can get the job done.

Martin Rosenblum 3 years, 6 months ago

Just realized something. In the scheme of things, Mizz won the battle Saturday, but KU won the War!

The Border War is officially over. I am looking at the upcoming game in Lawrence to be a sort of war re-enactment. As in all re-enactments, the side that won the war always wins the re-enactment to be historically accurate.

JayHok 3 years, 6 months ago

Anybody out there in Missouri that knows Don Daily and could find an old picture of him wearing his favorite college gear it would be greatly appreciated. It might allow all Jayhawk fans to begin the healing process from last Saturday.

At the very least confirmation of his address could help us to heal. This could be a nice article in the vein of a Sports Illustrated investigative piece Matt Tait or Jesse Newell could write titled ----Who is Don Daily, really?---

Was Don Daily at a college bowl party in December? Anybody in Missouri have a picture of him and how he was dressed?

hathead 3 years, 6 months ago

Time to sober up, homers. MU is good this year. Obviously better than KU. And the record bears this out. They could well sweep us...

LSHawk 3 years, 6 months ago

How about wake up loser....we took them down to the wire in thier place, we will dominate them at AFH. Go troll a different website.

baldwinjhawk 3 years, 6 months ago

Wrong hathead. We take mizzou by at least 10 at the phog.. They almost lost to OU.. wtf

Kye Clark 3 years, 6 months ago

A simple look at the record doesn't take into account strength of schedule. Who did they play in the non-conference? Not a ranked team in the bunch. Their signature non-conference win is over #45 RPI Illinois. Our worst loss is Davidson. Theirs is Okie St., which is a worse loss in terms of RPI. If they had played our schedule they'd certainly have a few more losses.

They are a good team and may in fact be better than KU, but I think it's too early to tell, and definitely don't think it is obvious. We have the same conference record right now and they have to come to our place. Wait until it plays out a little more before making any assumptions.

LAJayhawk 3 years, 6 months ago

To back up icthawk's point, KU's current Strength of Schedule is #3. Mizzou's is #70. KU's non-con SOS is currently #48. Mizzou... #313... that's out of 345.

I also think mizzou is a very good team, but measuring on the win/loss record can be quite deceiving. They do have a lot of weapons, and they are a challenge for any team they play, but don't get crazy. They still have difficulty winning on the road. They lost to a very poor OSU team, and struggled against OU, Texas and Iowa State. They even struggled against Old Dominion on the road. Aside from whatever might happen in Lawrence, my guess is mizzou drops at least one more game on the road. Again, I do think they are a very good team and may be better than KU, but don't be myopic. They are far from the dominant force that you seem to think they are.

tailgater 3 years, 6 months ago

Can we really judge them for struggling against Iowa State?? People on here just amaze me. We got beat on Saturday. We get them at home soon enough.

LAJayhawk 3 years, 6 months ago

Uh, yes, you judge them based on everything they have done. What I'm saying is they have had trouble on the road, and that they may not be as dominant as suggested. That point had nothing to do with us. The fact that they beat Iowa State and we didn't does factor in as to whether or not they are "obviously better than KU," but I was pointing out some of the flaws in their season. That is all. If we beat OSU in Stillwater... does that change things? I'm not getting into a tick for tack, I was simply talking about mizzou's resume. Take if for what you will.

I did say that they very well could be better than KU, but it's not as "obvious" as this poster was making it out.

Please read my entire post and try to actually comprehend it next time. It might actually help you to bring up a legitimate counterpoint.

hathead 3 years, 6 months ago

I didn't say they were dominant, I just said they were good and that they could (all caps) sweep us. One could choose to look at any combination of stats they choose, but the one that makes the strongest case is the actual game they played; and MU won.

Translation: they're better. Everything else is homer-speak.

Kye Clark 3 years, 6 months ago

That isn't the translation. That's your troll-speak translation.

The more accurate translation is: they were better that night.

You're the one that brought up their record, as if it exists in a vacuum and everything is equal. It is a fact that KU has played a much tougher schedule. The beauty of the conference this year is that everybody plays each other twice, home & away. So again, why not wait until that plays out before making blanket statements like that? What happens if KU wins in AFH? Are you going to retract that statement?

Sam Constance 3 years, 6 months ago

I have two friends who say otherwise (and have the proof to back it up):

Mr. Jeff Sagarin and Mr. Ken Pomeroy, each of whom has a pretty robust regression analysis they use to rate the teams each week.

Sagarin: Kansas #4 Missouri #8

Pomeroy: Kansas #3 Missouri #8

But we both know you're just trolling, so carry on.

Kye Clark 3 years, 6 months ago

Do you ever have anything to offer this board? I never expect much from you, but now you're just lazily phoning it in. I don't expect or even want every fan to be waving the pom poms in blind support of everything as if we're always destined for another Final Four run, but you offer nothing. No analysis. No well-thought out arguments. Not that there is any prior evidence you are capable of such things. Just taking up space.

Next

Phoghorn 3 years, 6 months ago

Well of course they are! Bucknell is No.1 in the Patriot League, will undoubtedly make the tourney. They could really stun the nation by upsetting the Tigers.

JayHawkFanToo 3 years, 6 months ago

Aren't you hitting the sauce a little too early?

nuleafjhawk 3 years, 6 months ago

I don't disagree with Coach Self very often, but I do here.

We are not "really good". We're close to being really good, but really good teams don't give up 8 point leads with 2 minutes to play.

On a more positive note - Hell has officially frozen over. We have finally joined Duke and North Carolina in that elite group that loses games and moves up in the rankings!

Andrew Washington 3 years, 6 months ago

..its about time-our program goes toe to toe with both of those programs and always has. I still can't figure out why UNC has its own bb blog on ESPN though!

LAJayhawk 3 years, 6 months ago

Fair enough. But I will say the reason why we moved up is because Dook had a pretty bad loss, and no one behind us could leap frog. So, essentially, it was BECAUSE of Dook that we lost a game and moved up...

nuleafjhawk 3 years, 6 months ago

Come on LAJ - you know that logic and reason have nothing to do with my posts! This is just cheap therapy. lol

JayHawkFanToo 3 years, 6 months ago

Why shouldn't KU move up? It lost by 3 point to a higher ranked team in its home court. Most analysts (and Vegas) consider the home advantage to be at least 3-4 points. Also, maybe the voters factored in the referees and figured that without their help, KU wins the game.

John Randall 3 years, 6 months ago

Actually, we only moved up in the most visible ranking (AP), and that had more to do with how the other second-five teams did than how we did. Our bump in the road wasn't as jarring as theirs.

Adam Collins 3 years, 6 months ago

Considering the remainder of both MIzzery and our schedule, do we pretty much have to win out to take/tie for the conference championship? Mizzery's final schedule is essentially a cake walk on the road and they've been good at home. Thoughts?

Justin Kruse 3 years, 6 months ago

Yes, win out and we take the conference outright. Hope that A&M or KSUck can upset Mizzou along the way. We just take care of our business and the title is ours.

LAJayhawk 3 years, 6 months ago

If we win out, we will have beaten both Baylor and Mizzou, meaning we would have the conference outright by at least one game (Mizzou and Baylor still have to play, so someone is dropping at least another game).

As I said above, mizzou has trouble on the road, so my guess is they drop one somewhere, but beat Baylor at home, which would give a little more breathing room. But I'm certainly not going to count on that.

In the end, we control our own destiny. We need to go out every game and take care of business.

Krohnutz 3 years, 6 months ago

They only have two more road games left, and neither are very daunting.

We need Iowa State and/or Baylor to go into Columbia and win, but since Mizzou seems to have hired their own officiating crew, that seems highly unlikely.

LAJayhawk 3 years, 6 months ago

What we REALLY need is to win out... :)

Mark Lindrud 3 years, 6 months ago

At this point win and the title is ours for 8. We can't afford another loss.
Our slogan should be Be Great for 8!

Jack Wilson 3 years, 6 months ago

From the game Saturday .. of the media .. the question I want asked of Bill Self is what play did he call with 25 seconds left? The one were Tyshawn got the charge call. All I saw was Self saying that TT perhaps started too early. He didn't say anything about him not running the play, etc.

Clearly, it appeared that the plan was for TT to try to penetrate off the dribble. That's the best we've got? I would expect that we would have a "go-to" play or two vs. man and vs. zone when we need a bucket. Just like you have in-bounds plays to score. Each with second and third options.

What I would expect would be that Self would say .. versus a man, let's run ""; and if they come out in a zone as they did vs. Texas, let's run "". Versus the man, if we have a breakdown, let's go with "". Versus a zone, if we have a breakdown, let's go with "."

Of course, none of the media asks him. Did I miss that? All I saw was this quote in general from Newell's notes: "Self would run a play, and Taylor thought he saw an opening and would try to make something happen." .. a general statement about the second half

How hard is it to ask coach Self if, in the huddle, he called a play vs. a man and vs. a zone; and if so, did TT ignore the play?

If TT ignored the play and just tried to free lance, then he is getting way too much of a free pass here. If TT thought he "saw an opening", there is seriously no hope for him from a judgment perspective in that sort of pressure situation (as a senior). But I have hesitated to comment on that point and blame Taylor's judgment because I just don't know what was done in the huddle.

Really, regardless, I would say that it is Self's responsibility to demand that they run the play, not accept a free lance that quickly, and if it breaks down, then go to option b or c.

It would be nice to know.

Kye Clark 3 years, 6 months ago

My guess is the play was indeed for Tyshawn to penetrate off the dribble. This isn't surprising, since the play in the final possession of almost every first half is "flat", just allowing our PG to go one-on-one with his defender at the top of the key.

If this is in fact the case, it is discouraging on a multiple levels. First of all, Tyshawn is not our best player. TRob is. And TRob had the hot hand in the second half. So for the play to not be designed to get your best player the ball is bothersome. Secondly, it wouldn't be as bad except that we know if Tyshawn is driving, he's only looking for his own shot. The call for a point guard to drive is a good one, if it cultivates multiple options: the kick-out for an open three, the drive-and-dish to an open post player once you draw his man to you, etc. However, all prior evidence should tell you that easily 90% of the time when Taylor drives it is solely looking for his own shot. Thirdly, I stated this on another article after the game, Taylor was fading. Whether due to exhaustion or feeling the pressure of the moment, he was imploding. And this is in no way placing the blame solely on Taylor or discounting his contributions earlier in the game. However, his late game struggles should have been cause for Self to call someone else's number. And lastly, Self had seen this before. Again as I stated on another article, it was the Duke game all over again. This ties into my previous point, as in that game Taylor was fading at the end as well. Self had seen it before, and called it the same expecting a different result. Instead he got the same thing.

If it wasn't the play and Taylor just went off script and freelanced, then you are correct about there being no hope for his judgment in pressure situations.

Jack Wilson 3 years, 6 months ago

Exactly .. great points. The best one is his propensity not to dish.

In the last few moments of the game, Taylor reminds me of Keith Langford syndrome .. desperately wanting to be the man.

Also, did you see where Self said that he didn't think fatigue was a factor? Interesting since it supposedly has been a factor earlier. I think Taylor was gassed.

On that last play, I would have like to have seen Withey in the game, they weren't expecting it, good foul shooter, etc -- could have dished off to TRob.

GeoHawk15 3 years, 6 months ago

This is the best exchange of comments I've seen since Saturday. I was wondering the exact same thing, what did Coach Self draw up during that last TO?

At the time, I felt very confident we would come out with a solid play. I figured that TRob had to be involved in some capacity. Whether it was a quick touch to draw defenders and pass out to an open shooter or take what they gave him and take the shot himself. It was very frustrating to me that TRob was not involved.

What worries me more is that these are the exact type of scenarios that play out in the last seconds of tournament games. We need to be able to execute a set play that guarantees a good look. We were unable to do that on 2 separate occasions in those final seconds.

KULA 3 years, 6 months ago

Haven't you guys figured it out yet? Bill doesn't call plays late (if at all). It's the same thing I've been complaining about for a couple years now. How does this team "get a bucket" when it needs one? What's the plan (or "play")? Answer: There is none. Ever since Sherron's Jr. year, it's just been "Try to beat your guy 1 on 1." See any similarities between the end of this game and Michigan St 09?

And yes, contrary to the beliefs of some posters here, 18-22 yr olds WILL get tired in a game. That's on Bill, for not developing his bench (Naadir) to contribute a few minutes/game. Of course, Bill's not gonna admit that fatigue is a factor, because he knows it's on him.

Kye Clark 3 years, 6 months ago

You're possibly right about fatigue. However, I've talked to dozens of high school coaches and have asked them about fatigue, especially when they're playing the third game of a three day tournament. Almost without exception they say that the kids are in great shape and that fatigue isn't an issue. Granted it's high school level which is different, and the games are 8 minutes shorter, but you also don't have extended TV timeouts, and one would hope that college athletes (especially at a high-level program like KU) would be in even better condition. It's not an apples-to-apples comparison by any means, but I would also buy fatigue NOT being a factor at times.

nb4ku 3 years, 6 months ago

Methzou didn't go any deeper into their bench than we did. Just saying, I don't believe that excuse comes into play in this instance.

Jack Wilson 3 years, 6 months ago

KULA: You're right on the lack of "plays" .. remember Keith Langford getting the ball up top with the clear out?

On the clear-out, guys go to spots, but I'd much prefer a specific set to get a bucket with some options. And be prepared vs. man, and vs. zone, and for breakdowns (switching ball screens vs. not; disguising zone or man; ball forced a different way; or if there is something else that happens .. such as ball knocked away).

REHawk 3 years, 6 months ago

Roy's N.C. team has three kids still on this list, and the TarHeels can't stay among the top 3 or 4 teams in the nation.

namder 3 years, 6 months ago

I remember almost those same words come out of Larry Brown's mouth after we lost to Mitch Richmond and K-State at home in 1988. Larry saw something that told him we were improving and you know he was right. Other than the last 3:00 and the final score there was a lot to be happy about Sat. night.

wisjayhawkfan 3 years, 6 months ago

what is everyones opinion on this Frankamp kid. he sure seems to be a scorer. Is he playing against pretty decent competition and do you think he can put up big numbers at KU?

Kye Clark 3 years, 6 months ago

Here's my two cents from watching him play a few times:

He is indeed a great scorer. Great shooting touch. Able to get his own shot, even when everyone knows he is looking to score and defenses are designed to stop him. He is playing against, more-or-less, the same level of competition that Perry Ellis is playing against as they both play in the Wichita City League. Perry has faced a little bit tougher out-of-league competition, both during mid-season tournaments this year and throughout his career as Heights advances (and wins) during the state tournaments.

Projecting him out, I think to be a great contributor at the college level and, as you say, "put up big numbers" he will have to improve his ball handling skills a bit. He's undersized for a shooting guard at only 6 feet tall, and I don't know if he has the point guard skill set to step in immediately at this level. His ball handling skills are not bad by any means, but I think he will need to improve a bit to see significant minutes at the point. In that respect, I liken him to maybe Ryan Robertson. Robertson wasn't ready to be run the point right out of high school, but after some time in the system he was a very serviceable back-up and filled in wonderfully for Vaughn when Vaughn got injured early his senior year.

Chris Shaw 3 years, 6 months ago

I can't wait for this kid to be in the Crimson and Blue! Can't wait! The kid is smooth and has a chip on his shoulder.

I actually put him as a more athletic Jeff Boschee. For being 6'0" he has great lift on his shot and he's got a nice vertical.

I don't think Boschee was ever a true point and I don't see Frankamp as a true point either. I just them both as guys who can knock down shots from about anywhere and can make plays for their teammates.

Chris Shaw 3 years, 6 months ago

Stud! His stroke is sweet! If anything, with Mclemore, White, Frankamp, and Greene.............KU may be one of the best shooting teams in it's history and could very well be the best shooting team in the country over the next couple of years especially in 2014 and or 2015.

Greene kind of plays like Rush IMO offensively. I didn't realize how good Rush's stroke was until he stepped on campus. Greene's stroke is pretty well documented at the moment at 6'7".

wisjayhawkfan 3 years, 6 months ago

so in 2 years KU is looking pretty stacked. will be young, but very talented

wisjayhawkfan 3 years, 6 months ago

was still hoping to get that big kid that went to Arizona

Sean Getman 3 years, 6 months ago

Every year it seems Self's guards step it up midseason and become as he said A Force. Coincidence? I think not. Bill Sellf COTY

REHawk 3 years, 6 months ago

Actually, the Tigers are in first place all alone today. By 8:30 tomorrow night, either the Bears or Jayhawks will again be tied with Mizzou. Not a good feeling at all, having to play catch up. I am traveling without my DVR, so was not able to record the Sat. game; but did see the rerun yesterday on ESPNU. Came away with the same sour feeling about our disregard for clock management in final 2 1/2 minutes. The two players who made the most significant boost to our offense throughout 37 minutes of the game played in a fog down the closing stretch. If there was anything shady about the refereeing, we certainly played right into opportunity for whistles. This has to be a monumental learning experience which should remain with returning starters the remainder of this year and next. With an 8 pt. lead going into the closing couple of minutes of an otherwise very close game, the clock becomes as much an enemy as the opposing team. Gotta close out and win over both!

Chris Shaw 3 years, 6 months ago

I like playing "Catch Up". It hasn't happened much over the last 5 years and these kids have always bounced back after a loss. What happens if they lose to Baylor? Not that I want them to lose to Baylor, but if they did..........is that really a "Bad Loss".

I like this team! I am really enjoying this season! I hated losing to Mizzou, but the way I look at it.............we are going to get them 2 more times this season.

Kye Clark 3 years, 6 months ago

Shaw - if we lose at Baylor, in my opinion the chances of another conference title are almost nil. We'll be a game behind two teams, and while we could leap frog one, I think two would be asking too much. It would certainly all but eliminate winning it outright.

A loss at Baylor, in and of itself, isn't a "bad loss". However, given the standings I don't see how we can afford it. Also, it is our last chance to get a big road win (KSUck I guess to a lesser extent). Lose that one, and it hurts our seeding come tournament time, with a less-than impressive record away from AFH.

texashawk10 3 years, 6 months ago

Losing to Baylor pretty much eliminates any chance of an outright conference title for KU and makes us have to cheer for Missouri on Saturday to set up a 3 way tie after KU takes care of Missouri on the 25th. A KU win on Wednesday however could be what starts Baylor into their almost annual tailspin as they have a pretty brutal stretch starting with KU followed by the game in Columbia on Saturday and then Iowa St. next Saturday plus they still have to make trips to Austin and Ames for the return game against ISU.

Chris Shaw 3 years, 6 months ago

I hear what you're saying, but KU would still have 7 games left as would Mizzou and Baylor. IMO, so what if KU would share the title with someone or for that matter not win the Big 12 title.

Honestly, I know I disagree with Self here, but I am more worried and concerned about post season play than I am regular season titles.

My opinion would certainly be different if KU wouldn't have had recent flameout's in the Big Dance, but all I care about is getting back on track and beating the teams were suppose to be beating in the Big Dance.

Also, a 2 loss team in the Big 12 doesn't happen IMO. Somebody will share or win the conference outright with 3 losses.

This is just me, but I do think it would be kind of cool if Baylor, KU, and Mizzou all finished 15-3 or 14-4 in conference all going 1-1 against each other.

Kye Clark 3 years, 6 months ago

Most years I am in complete agreement with what you're saying. Most years I'd gladly sacrifice a conference title and rather focus on the Big Dance. However, this year I have adjusted my expectations. I think a conference title in a down year, especially with Baylor & MU in the top 10, it would represent a successful season, if coupled with a sweet 16 appearance (as I considered the '08-'09 season a success).

Also, there is nothing cool about sharing the title with Misery. Nothing!

BCRavenJHawkfan 3 years, 6 months ago

Hmmmm, Coach Self turning up the Dr. Phil approach. Good move.

REHawk 3 years, 6 months ago

We are still not approaching efficient production out of the Thomas/Jeff twin tower combo. At this juncture, it appears that we might not see the offense go in that direction. Jeff seems to defer to Thomas, on both ends of the court...perhaps rightly so. Thomas is such a force this season, driven to produce numbers and contribute in such energetic explosive fashion that his natural mindset is to make things happen or play the inside out game rather than trust Jeff's sometimes tendency to bobble passes. Perhaps Self's inside-out offense has merely taken so long to install and polish this season that we might yet see more big-to-big action as the season winds down. There appears to be so much untapped potential remaining to be gleaned from this offense; such as EJ's gradually learning to pump fake for open midrange shots or drives to the bucket. Any thoughts???

oldalum 3 years, 6 months ago

Self was asked about Jeff's play during the post game interview, and he said that bigs play better against other bigs, and that smaller guys are always a problem for them. No one asked anything else, so either they understood what he meant or thought that was all they were going to get.

Kye Clark 3 years, 6 months ago

It's generally true. You see it a lot in high school when there's a guy towering over everybody else and you ask yourself "how is this guy not dominating?" A lot of it has to do with leverage. As they say in football, low man wins. It's better to be a couple inches taller than your defender as opposed to half a foot.

wisjayhawkfan 3 years, 6 months ago

i am liking this tougher competition for the Jayhawks this season. I think this will help them prepare better for the ncaa tourney. I think the # 1 seeds over the last couple years gets to their heads too much and they arent prepared enough for the tournament. Maybe a 2 or 3 seed might be better for them. any thoughts?

wisjayhawkfan 3 years, 6 months ago

and keep Obama from jinxing us for a third straight year. lol!

wisjayhawkfan 3 years, 6 months ago

keep us under the radar with the media and just get the job done so we can do the upsetting and not be the "chokehawks"

HawkKlaw 3 years, 6 months ago

I thought this same thing before the season started. KU has been tested early and often this season.

Then again, there was that 2007-08 season where we entered the NCAA tourney as a #1 seed...didn't turn out so bad.

wisjayhawkfan 3 years, 6 months ago

very true, but getting teased way too much up here in wisconsin with all the hype and "choke" games. but then i just settle them down with that final four game against marquette a few years back. rock chalk!!!

MU_Fan 3 years, 6 months ago

Please don't shoot me! I'm not looking for trouble, I'm just trying to get a better feel on how KU fans feel about MU moving to the SEC.

Seems like generally MU would like to continue the basketball rivalry and KU would not. I assume both schools have enjoyed it thus far. Is the animosity due to MU leaving the confence at all? Is it because MU left the conference and potentially damaged the conference by doing so? Is it more that basketball fans are mad, or is it everyone? Were people this angry at Nebraska, Colorado, and Texas A&M? Would KU have gone to the SEC if they had had a chance?

I've always enjoyed the rivalry, and beating KU is big for us since KU clearly has a better basketball program than we do. I'm sure you have valid reasons for the anger, but being on the other side it's hard to get a real good feel for it. Any input would be welcomed.

wisjayhawkfan 3 years, 6 months ago

I could care less if they leave, but would love a KU/MU non-conference game every year on a neutral court like they play in Kansas City every year.

MU_Fan 3 years, 6 months ago

As would I. Not so much because I don't want to see the tradition broken, but just because it is so much fun. The environment when we played OU last night was very dull. Never like that against KU! The MU/KU game really is the biggest for us most years.

justinryman 3 years, 6 months ago

I think it isn't just Kansas not wanting to play MU any more, but the Big12.

I think the Big 12 has told their schools that if they leave, we don't give them the satisfaction to come back and play in our yard. Nebraska and Kansas had the longest rivalry in college football west of the Mississippi, but when NU left they let that rivalry die.

MU fans or officials can say they want to keep it going, and that's easy for them to say. It is also easy for them to say the KU is the one who is ending the series saying that MU still want's to play it. But if they really wanted to play it they would no have bolted for the SEC. In reality MU left the series by cutting it's ties with the Conference they had been in for decades.

Part of the issue is that MU said they were going to the Big10 3 years ago, and they didn't. Then they sat idle for a year trying coax everyone left in the Big12 that they were good. Then this past summer they say they are leaving for the SEC. I think that people look at that as MU thinks it is far superior than the rest and is calling it's own shots.

As far as KU going to the SEC, yes the probably would have, but they would not have had to if conference realignment wasn't such an issue. It started with Colorado and Nebraska almost crumbling the Big12, then A&M and MU. KU is happy where it's at and wanted things to stay the way they were. If the teams that left had actually manned up and stood up to Texas years ago non of this would have happened, but it did and it is what it is.

There are always two sides to every story, so take out of it what you will.

MU_Fan 3 years, 6 months ago

I agree that the power Texas wielded for years is in large part the catalyst for where we are now.

When Nebraska and Colorado left and it looked like the conference might fold, I think MU was as afraid of where we might end up as anyone was. I think that is why we ended up leaving for the SEC. That lack of security in the Big 12.

I think MU could have been a little more up front about things when they were talking to the Big 10 and the SEC. Even seemed a bit underhanded to me.

While I hope we can keep playing basketball it is kind of silly to lay the blame on KU. We made a decision on what we thought was best for us, and it is certainly reasonable for you to now decide what is best for you without us criticizing you.

3 years, 6 months ago

Well put, Justin. From Yahoo Sports columnist and MU alum Pat Forde:


Haith said he’d like to see the series continue even after the Tigers relocate to the SEC. Self said Mizzou shouldn’t get its hopes up.

“It’s not going to happen in the near future,” he said. “They chose to be somewhere else, and that’s fine. So be it. … Missouri wanted this, so why should I feel bad?”

I’m a Missouri alum, but I understand Self’s point. The Tigers are the ones walking out on the relationship; they can’t expect Kansas to understand and take them back for a non-conference game. Same goes for Texas and Texas A&M in football.

You leave? You understand what you’re leaving and what the damage may be to the relationship.

That’s the cost of realignment. Great rivalries ruined.


Kye Clark 3 years, 6 months ago

MU leaving doesn't bother me one bit. I'm grateful for it. No more of our players having to endure the B.S. late-night phone calls from the Antlers. No more shaking our head about how classless they are with their personal attacks, as was evidenced by the NMT t-shirts (did anyone get a look at those btw?). And hopefully, since they cut ties to KU their trolls will come out in less numbers on our message boards.

I don't much get into the other college sports, but for me what it boils down to is this: MU leaving doesn't hurt KU. KU will schedule opponents and will continue to sell out AFH with no problem. Playing MU is not, in most years, a great resume builder. However, it does hurt MU. KU has miles and miles of tradition & history, the best this sport has to offer. What does MU offer? Nothing. They have been like a leech. A parasite; pilfering off of that tradition for over 100 years. We have other rivals. Who does MU have now? What are they without us? Nothing. Just another school.

Granted this move was made without considering basketball. For MU it was primarily a cash grab, secondarily a soft landing with a more stable conference. For the SEC, it was only about expanding it's economic footprint. About establishing itself in both the St. Louis & Kansas City markets. Take away their geographic advantages, and MU offers nothing special.

And justinryman is right. I think it's the unofficial policy of the Big XII to avoid the defectors like the plague. Misery is the worst offender, because they were making plans when the conference was in serious jeopardy. They helped destabilize the situation, and for a school like KU - without a solid football program and thus no soft landing - it was indeed a scary situation. I'm not willing to reward them for that, not when the only benefit seems to be because some fans want to keep it going.

Kye Clark 3 years, 6 months ago

addendum:

I don't begrudge MU for looking out for itself and doing what they thought was best for them. I just don't think they can have their cake and eat it too.

It's hard to say what KU would have done if they were in that position. Because we haven't had any football success in the last few years, no one was falling over themselves to add us to their conference. I think KU was no doubt looking into options had the Big XII folded, but that was plan "B". Again as justinryman stated, they are happy where they are.

JhawkalumJB 3 years, 6 months ago

Mizwho offers the SEC a sound academic school. They do rank well academically, and the SEC needs help repairing a tarnished academic reputation. Mizwho and A&M are both good as far as academic rankings and accreditation. Academically Mizwho and A&M were tough losses for the BIG12.

Yea, I know... it's all about sports, but it's still worth mentioning and considering.

Kye Clark 3 years, 6 months ago

Yes this is a sports website, so that was the only thing I was referencing.

As to your claim (which I have no reason to doubt, other than the fact that MU basketball fans are among the most ignorant I've come across) that MU does well academically, in so much as it pertains to playing them in a non-conference game, this point is irrelevant, much as their whole institution should be to KU once they have finally slinked away.

Ethan Berger 3 years, 6 months ago

There are many factors.

  1. The scapegoat of Texas. I don't believe that Texas in the conf killer. I have yet to see any article are argument of proof that Texas was this horrible school who would just break arms. People said it but no one gave an example.

  2. The conf realignment almost destroyed 4 schools. Understand is if the Three Texas and the Two OK schools left, ISU, KSU, KU and Baylor would have been lucky to get an invite. Maybe the Big East would have sweeped in. We are talking about millions of dollars that would have been lost. Recruiting difficulty would have gotten much worse then it already is in football.

  3. Mizzou chose to leave for the SEC. I personally don't have a problem with leaving for money if that's your reason and not blaming Texas. Mizzou left for stability and money and they made that clear and its okay with me. But they also have to be okay with KU saying we don't want to play you. A move they could have seriously hurt our athletics. Why reward a girl for cheating on you?

  4. Lack of Loyalty. KU MU have been in the same conf since forever. Which is why it is the greatest rivalry in all of college sports because it isn't just a football rivalry or a basketball. The border war has the bloodiest history and people want to destroy each other. MU chose to leave, they chose to gamble on losing rivalries. They can't get everything they want. They had to lose something. Only time will tell if it was a good choice.

  5. Nothing to play for. If they continue, what do they have on the line? Pride? Beating KU or MU also had implications on the conf. Now its just another game. I can stand losing to Kentucky, Duke, UNC, IU and other schools because its just a game. But losing in conf means something in the standings. It could destroy your NCAA tourney hopes. Conf games are so big. We lose that aspect. To me, it would be just another game.

MU_Fan 3 years, 6 months ago

Regarding Texas:

"The Longhorn Network (TLN) has sparked debates from whether its original plan to air Texas high school games gives the school an unfair recruiting advantage to whether Texas getting itself in the TV listings might tempt institutions of higher learning to follow suit."

"For the Big 12 Conference, which let Texas create a channel to keep it from joining defections last year that threatened the Big 12's existence, the question is whether it has reined in the Longhorns.

The ESPN-Texas deal gives ESPN first-negotiation rights if the Longhorns go independent.

"It's unhealthy for that conference," says A.J. Maestas, a consultant with Navigate Marketing who has advised pro and college leagues and teams. "Texas is already getting a disproportionate amount of the Big 12 TV money, and this will create a more unlevel playing field. I think the Big 12 will fall apart because of this. Then who will Texas play against in, say, softball and volleyball?" http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/football/big12/2011-08-11-texas-longhorn-network-debate_n.htm

I believe TX also said something to the effect of, "We are committed to the Big 12, although we will listen to other offers."

Missouri didn't help things by courting the Big 10 then the SEC, but I don't believe it would have come to that if all the schools felt good about the conference they were in. No tough arm twisting, but everyone knew TX could go anywhere they wanted and did not have to worry much about what the other schools thought.

Ethan Berger 3 years, 6 months ago

First off thank you for the link, I have been searching for something and could never find one.

My biggest thing is you have to buy the network. It doesn't come free. Second, I honestly don't see how it would help with recruiting. To be a great recruiting, you need to be a pro factory. Most top schools are. They already are top 3 class year in and out. Outside of Texas, I doubt kids really care.

Good point about Texas going anywhere. Texas is just as guilty at flirting with leaving, while they chose to stay they are still a wild card. What really hurt is when Nebraska left, I didn't like Colorado leaving because of the history but they made a good move because it was more convenient for them. There are no real evil guys. I think Texas has been a scapegoat but they are not innocent. They only innocent schools at this point are the ones who aren't getting offers to go to other confs.

HawkKlaw 3 years, 6 months ago

Of course KU is angry about MU leaving. It's one of the best rivalries in sports. Honestly, both sides should be pissed about the rivalry ending. Now KU's biggest rival is...KSU??? They hardly put up a fight most seasons (in basketball, at least).

Also, MU stands to benefit from continuing the rivalry more than KU does. That disappoints me, but it is the truth. Like you said, KU vs. MU is the biggest game of the season for MU a lot of times. It rarely is the biggest game for KU, since KU competes for a National Championship (and Big 12 Championship) every season. KU officials realize this and aren't in any hurry to help Mizzou benefit by leaving the Big 12. Their mindset is, "if you want to play us so bad, don't hurt the rivalry or the conference by leaving the Big 12."

In a nutshell, that's why KU officials won't schedule MU for the foreseeable future. I would bet that over time KU and MU will go back to playing each other at least once a season. Right now there's just a lot of animosity.

Justin Kruse 3 years, 6 months ago

We hate MU period. Them leaving for the SEC just made us hate them more. We don't have those strong feelings towards Nebraska, Colorado and A&M so it wasn't as big a deal to us; still sucked b/c it hurt our conference.

I totally see why Self and KU officials wouldn't schedule MU non-conference-they left us so screw 'em. But, at some point, I hope they schedule just for the fans. I think it would be great to play every year at Sprint Center. Despite the outcome, this past week was so much fun anticipating that game. I hate to see it end. Also, money speaks, and at some point it will be hard to pass that up.

I'll still follow MU next year just b/c I want to see them fail in the SEC. My hatred toward MU will never die, and I assume that will be the case w/ many Jayhawks.

Sam Constance 3 years, 6 months ago

I can't speak for other KU fans or the administration, but I can tell you how I feel, then give you a link to an article posted by Seth Davis that I think does an excellent job of explaining the intricacies of the "continuing the rivalry" thing within the context of realignment.

I think there is some animosity from MU leaving the conference and putting it in jeopardy by doing so. On this point, I view MU on the same plane as NU, CU and A&M. Four schools who, in trying to do what was "best for them" turned their back on all the principles for which I thought college athletics were entertaining. While you can argue that MU got the whole ball rolling with the public comments about leaving for the Big 10, the simple truth is that a line can be drawn in the sand to distinguish teams that have ACTUALLY hurt the Big 12 vs. teams that were a threat to hurt the Big 12. Teams that made good on their threat/promise to leave hurt the Big 12. Those that didn't, didn't.

I doubt that KU would have gone to the SEC if invited, if I'm interpreting the comments I've heard out of Sheaon Zenger and our Chancellor correctly. I think they see KU as a quintessentially "Midwestern" University, and aside from all the logistical nightmares of competing in an area that really isn't in our geographic fooprint of the main fanbase, they thought it made the most sense to continue playing in a Midwestern-based conference, against longtime foes from the same region.

(to be concluded..)

Sam Constance 3 years, 6 months ago

(...concluded)

In terms of the "anger", I think a lot of fans didn't want MU to leave. The rivalry was special--up there in the top tier of university rivalries and part of what made it special wasn't just the animosity, but the fact that we've competed in the same sports, for the same league titles for so long. The rivalries that out-of-conference foes play are, in my opinion, "marketing" rivalries". They continue to play them because they know the alums will be interested and it's easier to sell a matchup, even when the two teams are bad, when it's a "rivalry". That is not to say that these rivalries aren't rooted in actual, historical rivalries. Just that when you play once a year in a couple different sports, it's hard to foster the same intensely competitive back and forth that comes with playing a school up and down the line, in every sport, with the winner having a direct and distinct advantage in the conference title races. Having common opponents (through the conference season) is yet another offshoot of this same ideal.

No matter what happens at this point, THAT rivalry is gone. It will never come back until Missouri returns to the Big 12 (not happening). The competition for the same titles and crowns that has only served to intensify the bitterness of this rivalry is done, and playing MU once a year in basketball and football won't bring that back. In fact, in a way it serves to remind fans of what the rivalry WAS in a way that merely creates longing for the old way.

So the rest of the "anger" probably comes from the appearance that MU is trying to shift the blame for ending the rivalry onto Kansas by repeating that they still want to play every chance they get. When you're already not happy to see the rivalry go away, then the party who is the one making the decision to end it tries to say "hey, we'll still play--YOU'RE ending the rivalry" is pretty galling, to say the least. If went to my wife and said "I'd like an open marriage, and that's the only way I can stay married to you" it would be a pretty d*ck move to then say SHE was the one ending the relationship if she didn't want an open marriage.

In both cases, the relationship exists under a specific set of circumstances (within the Big 12/within the promise of monogamy). If one party wants to change the circumstances of continuing the relationship, that is just a different way of saying they want to end the relationship as it currently stands and start a new one.

Here is the link to that Seth Davis article: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/seth_davis/02/06/kansas.missouri/index.html

justinryman 3 years, 6 months ago

Very well put, thought out and worded.

What your wife won't have an open marriage either? Guess Im not the only one. hahahahahahahahaha Pretty sure I'd be dead if I even brought it up.

MU_Fan 3 years, 6 months ago

Thanks for the link. Good article.

And a very good post.

Unfortunately neither one of us (the fans) had anything to say about the move, but we are the ones to pay the price. And in my opinion it is a very high price to pay.

As far as anyone saying KU is to blame for not wanting to continue the rivalry, that is obviously just a great big rationalization. "I know, I'll blame it on you and then I won't have to feel bad about it!" Standard response by many to a bad situation.

I appreciate all the well thought out responses from everyone. Gives me a much better understanding of what is going on over in KU land. While I may not agree with every point made by everyone, I do think the feelings of KU fans are justified. Not that my saying so makes any difference at all, just that I wanted to say that I thought this was a very savvy and reasonable crowd. I liked the entire thread.

Oh well. The move sucks for me. Guess I'll just have to roll with it...

cool_beans 3 years, 6 months ago

i wonder how the good the team would be if mclemore and traylor were able to play this season? for one thing though they would provide some depth to the bench.

wisjayhawkfan 3 years, 6 months ago

definitly depth to the bench, maybe even a starting position for mclemore. Hoping their practice time this semester will help them out for next season. It should anyway.

Ethan Berger 3 years, 6 months ago

Don't think about it. Of course we would be much better off. But we don't. It could be a blessing. B MAC depending on the year could have jumped ship for the nba, but instead he gets a full year in college, he will be more mature and he might be a stud and decide to improve his game instead of hoping for a top 10 pick (josh selby)

wisjayhawkfan 3 years, 6 months ago

even though it is not game experience, they sure are getting some great experience playing against the ku starting 5 everyday

Ethan Berger 3 years, 6 months ago

And from things they have said and their GPA this semester, it appears that also they have their had screwed on right and have a chip on their shoulder. Danny Manning can make any post player good and B MAC has alot of God Given talent.

wisjayhawkfan 3 years, 6 months ago

Maclemore's actions off the court still scares me but he is still very young

Ethan Berger 3 years, 6 months ago

Hes been clean so far at KU so maybe he learned his lesson. It's scary but when he does as good as he did this semester in school, its seems he learned his lesson. However, you never know, he just be sneaky and hasn't gotten caught yet.

Priest Fontaine 3 years, 6 months ago

Is there any chance at all that we could make a late move for Nerlens Noel? Seems to me that he would be the missing link for next year's class. I guess I'm just dreaming about the shot blocking yin and yang duo: Nerlens/Withey. White/Black, Senior/Freshman, West Coast/East Coast, Kid and Play/Beach Volleyball Dude...

Chris Shaw 3 years, 6 months ago

That would definitely allow Ellis to play the "Rush Spot", which Self has suggested multiple times.

With that said, I don't see it happening. I will say this though, T-Rob and Withey having the season they are having have to be giving 5 star "Big's" something more to think about.

Tony Bandle 3 years, 6 months ago

For you rivalry revival fans.

If anyone of you has had a wife cheat on you and leave you, it's the same feeling. Been there, had that happen to me.

Taking the high road, I don't wish any misfortune on her, but I sure as heck will never do anything to make her happy!!!

Part of the rivalry is historic, but a large part is that every time we played it meant something in conference. Each game had a direct impact on the season.

I will add one caveat..I will consider playing once each year..as long as it was always in Allen Fieldhouse. If it's that important to Missouri to continue this rivalry, then that's a small demand indeed.....Correct!!??

KULA 3 years, 6 months ago

I really feel like Bill is mismanaging his bench (if you can call it a bench). What is Teahan doing in the game for 20 minutes? Especially at the end, getting torched. What, exactly does he bring?

Probably too late now, and I know I sound like a broken record, but Naadir should have been prepped all season to provide 5-6 minutes rest for our guards. 38 & 40 minutes for Tyshawn and EJ? Newsflash coach--tired players miss shots. Even free throws.

And you can't tell me that Bill's early hook of EJ throughout his career for the first mistake (or even for a great throw down) hasn't zapped his confidence. We can probably look forward to the same tentativeness from Naadir for the next few years.

Ethan Berger 3 years, 6 months ago

I can absolutely tell you that. Why has Teahan played and gotten torched? Well first lets settle this getting torched thing. Teahan was on his guy and still the kid made it, it did to EJ and Releford too and to OU yesterday. Next with Tharpe. If you don't take advantage of your opportunities, then you don't play. Turnovers are big plays. Just letting your guy play through them isn't necc they best idea. We sit here and watch games. Bill has gone through practice, training camps, game tape reviews with these guys. He sees these guys. Bill sees something in game tape about Teahan that we don't see, he sees something in Tharpe that we don't see. All Bill Self does is win. To get playing time you have to earn it, not just be handed to you. We have our worst team in 10 years and yet we find our selves half a game out of first place. That is great management.

Ethan Berger 3 years, 6 months ago

Plus Releford was in foul trouble all game and we don't have back ups at the 3.

justinryman 3 years, 6 months ago

Playing devils advocate here, and not trying to be "that guy" but Kemba Walker averaged over 36 minutes almost 37 minutes a game last year. He led his team to the title and I do believe he played a full 40 minutes a game or two in the turny. It can be done. Just throwing that out there.

Plus with Bill Self's boot camp and all the conditioning hoopla one would have to think they could play a full game as well. Sure injuries can play a factor, but if TV time outs are used correctly along with the ones given to a team, a whole game is possible.

KULA 3 years, 6 months ago

Yeah, but just because something HAS been done, it doesn't mean anyone else can do it. Denmon played 39 min and was obviously still fresh, probably helped by the adrenaline rush of the home crowd and playing against Kansas. Btw, that's probably an unfair advantage, getting the adrenaline rush of playing against KU, as opposed to the ho-hum sensation of playing against Mizzou, lol. But to the point, because someone scored 100 pts in a game once, does that mean others should be able to?

justinryman 3 years, 6 months ago

In general it looks as if the Big12 officials are really bad and inconsistent.

Wonder if there is anyone out there that wants to look up who reffed those games or made those calls? It's above my pay grade.

Conspiracy theory--Mizzu is getting calls and non-calls this year to make it look better than they are so when they join the SEC espn has a reason to talk about them. NO I don't believe that, just throwing it out there. I mean a no call against a Texas shooter???? Trob's spin move was so fast the wind knocks a player over and it's called?

GeoHawk15 3 years, 6 months ago

Ha! I'm glad someone in the national media called out Mizzou for making t-shirts for their win.

Jack Wilson 3 years, 6 months ago

The non-foul on MU vs. Texas at the end was a joke as well, as noted in your link. The KC star had a picture of the foul in the paper. Caption noted that no foul was called.

Tony Bandle 3 years, 6 months ago

Jaybate,

Totally off topic but I know you have a more than passing fancy in architecture..I did not realize that Andrew Geller passed away this past December.

One of my favorite architects no one has ever heard of, his unique almost whimsical beach house designs of the '50s and 60's taught America that we all didn't have to live in boxes. His A-frame and Diamond designs still look great today.

Actually, a good basketball team is like a well designed building starting with a solid foundation, built with quality workmanship, but always maintaining a sense of flair and surprise.

Kansas may be a few bricks shy of a full load, but we sure have the flair and surprise part covered!! :)

jaybate 3 years, 6 months ago

Oak, thx for his name. I will look him up asap.

3 years, 6 months ago

Oakville, your mention of cool modern architectural house designs and a sense of flair reminds me of the Donald Dean House in Lawrence, which made it into the National Register of Historic Places in 2007. I bet you are familiar with this humble abode. I seem to recall the Kansas Alumni Association quarterly magazine wrote an article on it a few years back. Here are a couple of links talking about it.

More pics:

http://www.kshs.org/resource/ks_preservation/kpmayjun07.pdf

jaybate 3 years, 6 months ago

"Tuesday Tells"

• Regarding the video of the referees with Alden, and the odd choice by Self not to play through TRob most of the game, and the sudden separation when KU began playing through the logical players, and the remarkably sudden outbreak of confusion among KU's two stars, let's not talk about whether the game was fixed, until we set some criteria for what we would need for evidence to conclude that an inquiry was necessary? Perhaps $27.5M was bet on the game, as I estimated yesterday. The line was KU +2.5. KU was Quickly up 8 with 2:30 to go, when it began to play through its logical players. When it's logical players suddenly became confused, it went down to -3 and lost, then Alen had an exchange with one of the referees. What evidence would be required to ask for an inquiry under such a circumstance?

• I suspect Self is going very positive, because he realizes his team almost won inspire of his flawed strategy, and he is proud of them for that.

•MU is not a very good team. KU would have stomped them, if Self had played through his bugs, instead of trying to take what they gave us. Foul them three less times than they foul you and they can't win. Period.

Jack Wilson 3 years, 6 months ago

Jaybate: On your three topics.

  1. What would cause an inquiry on the potential of the game being thrown: It is an interesting hypothetical -- my comment here is a cut/paste from another page. I would expect the entire game to lead to the fix, not just the last few minutes. Both if players were responsible, or officials. If a fix is in, you can't screw it up by waiting. I would never expect us to have ever gotten an 8 point lead if the fix were in for MU. That would be too hard to control in the final minutes. Pretty much everything that needed to go wrong went wrong. If I were looking for "fixer", I'd look for someone making inexplicable turnovers, missing shots, and getting beat on D when he shouldn't. But obviously covering it with normal plays. I have always felt it's more likely that a college ref is throwing the game, rather than a player. Really, particularly in football, where the over/under is in play, too, and less in the spotlight. Controlling the over/under seems easier than the score differential. And the Vegas line is one thing. Guido's line is another. You never know what a smaller time bookie is offering as a game line, and how a ref might be involved. I just think in the landscape of college sports, there have to be a number of crooked refs .. the money enticement is too large for it not to be occurring, given the other risks that folks take every day (illegally) for money. But I have to ask .... do you think something was up Saturday?

  2. Do you really think Self thinks his strategy was flawed? My read on Self is that he doesn't view anything he does as flawed. Have you ever heard him take the blame for anything? Partial blame? Even vs. VCU or UNI .. something. Anything. Just something I have my ears perked for and have never seemed to hear. I would have loved to have seen a play set that included Withey in that possession at the 20 second mark. Or something other than what we saw and seem to see when there is a final possession.

  3. Until Saturday, I thought MU was perhaps KU's equal this season. But they are not. If we would have pounded the ball inside the whole game, it would have been over. They can't stop it. It's like Teahan trying to guard Denmon. Ain't happenin'. They are a good team though. Certainly top 10. And against a team without more than one solid inside guy, they are killer. That's why they have been so successful. The matchup is crucial for MU.

We blew a major opportunity to beat their ass three times this season, because we own the matchup -- see the second half Saturday. And they don't have an answer. But like Ali vs. Frazier, the greatest fighter/team will be remembered by the final two contests.

jaybate 3 years, 6 months ago

HEM

  1. The short answer is no, I don't think MU-KU was fixed, without a set of criteria for identifying situations that merit at least preliminary inquiry. But thanks especially for taking a stab at establishing criteria. I will think on yours.

The middling answer is: I don't wager, nor have I ever looked at lines much on games until just recently, and only now as part of my haphazard archaeology of old books on basketball, so I'm not the best qualified alias to comment on gambling related corruption, even though I have been circling around it and sizing it up a good bit lately.

The long answer is: I would say that my recent reading about gamblers' points of view on college basketball being perhaps the easiest game to fix, and the indications in a book from the 70s and a book from 1990 that point shaving was thought to be wide spread but rarely caught then, and that nothing has been instituted that I recall to reduce the risk and frequency of reputed point shaving in decades since, and on my anecdotal observations the last 5 years of what seems pervasive over reporting some programs and under reporting other programs by national broadcast media (seemingly not highly correlated with their talent levels and quality of coaches, or in some cases even their media markets), and noting that media control of college basketball is highly concentrated, and noting that officials at least seem unofficially to modulate foul calling to help keep games in broadcast windows, and noting that it at least seems technically feasible to have officials alter outcomes not only for the good of broadcast time windows and related commercial revenues, but also to have officials alter outcomes to ensure tolerable risk return matrices for the gaming industry and its revenues that apparently dwarf even the commercial revenues of the game broadcasts, and noting that in a book entitled "The Dark Heart of Italy" by Tobias Jones, it was documented that frequent systematic fixing of soccer games and other sports in Italy in a system in which mass media was closely held and cooperative with the gaming industry, I have grown to at least wonder about the integrity of big times sports in America with regard to point shaving and other forms of altering outcomes.

jaybate 3 years, 6 months ago

But I still have not found any conclusive evidence (at least to me) that the whole, or part of the whole,enchilada is rotten.

What I have found is that it might be technically feasible for it to be and that in at least one foreign country, e.g., Italy, it apparently is.

And when I add in that American sports substantially older than basketball, like boxing and horse racing, have been from time to time rotten to the core, with vastly less money at stake than is involved in sports betting today, I realize there is precedent in history in America, and precedent in foreign countries in the present.

And so, I cannot help but reflect on the possibility that American college basketball is not an exception to the past and present stenches of sports corruption, but yet another dimension of it.

But wondering is not claiming it. Wondering is not saying it is all fixed.

And asking for board rats to begin to conceptualize criteria for what kinds of events, or patterns of events, would trigger calls for inquiry, is merely a first step to trying to get a handle on this possible issue.

I am not morally opposed to gambling, or betting on sports.

But I am aware of the historically slippery slope regarding gambling and sports. Gambling always starts out as an activity that everyone tolerates, so long as it does not interfere with outcomes. Apologists for gambling always point out piously that most bookies and most casino books prefer an honest game, because probabilities can be anticipated, spreads set, and a decent return reliably made. But gambling is as easy of a business to corrupt, as college basketball is to point shave on. And I frankly cannot think of a single sport that is widely bet upon wherein gamblers have not altered outcomes to make a killing.

KU-MU not fixed, but I wonder. And if the sheep begin to wonder, it could wreak havoc with expectations. :-)

  1. Yes, I suspect he thinks that his strategy was flawed. And I also think that he never publicly admits such things, as part of his strategy for survival in his profession. Its both.

jaybate 3 years, 6 months ago

  1. We agree MU is a good, but not exceptional team. KU is the best team MU has played and the best it has beaten, and it did so by only three on its home floor. The way I look at this is: what if MU had played KU's pre conference schedule? How many losses would MU have. It would have the two it has now, plus the three KU had, and likely one more (probably to Georgetown). That would put it at 20-6. How high would MU be rated right now at 20-6? Looooow. Teams will begin to beat MU as soon as they scheme defenses aimed at holding down fouling of MU. Marcus Denmon had a career game against KU. What are his chances of running 29 on KU next time? Slim. And I guaran-damn-ty you that if Marcus Denmon had had to spend the evening down on the lower block guarding his man while being posted up, he would not have been running 29 on KU. For any team with the kind of perimeter length KU has, posting up the 1, 2, and 3 positions on the low blocks is a sure move to gut MU. But, frankly, most coaches are to orthodox to post-up perimeter players. Self just proved he was, too. My argument is Self tried to foul the wrong guy out of the game. Self tried to get Ratliff fouled up and did finally. But it was stupid to try to get Ratliff fouled up, when the smart move was for TRob, guarded by Ratliff, to lob the ball to Withey guarded by the 6-6 English. The MU player to foul-up is Phil Pressey. Foul him up and MU's entire offense gums up.

All for now.

j0hnb1aze 3 years, 6 months ago

Join the Facebook group: I hate Jack Harry

Kye Clark 3 years, 6 months ago

What are the odds that if Baylor wins tomorrow they storm the court?

Kye Clark 3 years, 6 months ago

Follow up question: Does Baylor print up T-Shirts if they win tomorrow?

Jack Wilson 3 years, 6 months ago

Did you give up the 2 1/2 points, or did you go straight up?

jayhawk_zeus 3 years, 6 months ago

That's a lot of Meth money... congrats.

Benjamin Piehler 3 years, 6 months ago

Do yourself a favor and don't make the same bets at Allen ;-)

Bion Ostrander 3 years, 6 months ago

Hey, maybe we should lose to Baylor and KSU and move up a few more spots in the poll, NOT!

Anxious to get the memory of that Mizzou loss out of my head by beating up on Baylor.

KU really needs this win to hang with Mizzou and stay in contention. KU will definitely beat Mizzou at AFH, but if Mizzou wins its remaining games then KU can only afford one more loss to get at least tie for the conference.

I hope Withey was saving his game for Baylor, can't have any more games with one shot attempt and 0 points in 23 minutes, UGH, and against a 6'6" Mizzou player!

Self had few options and had to pull Withey and go small with Teahan, since Withey was doing nothing and at least Teahan might provide some outside shooting with KU behind. But Teahan gave up 9 straight points to Denmon, enough said, ouch!

Depth is bad when KU can't even pull a defensive stopper off the bench to help out.

Not much time left, someone off the bench needs to kick it in to gear and TR and EJ need to be more consistent down the stretch.

Go Hawks...

Benjamin Piehler 3 years, 6 months ago

lol. They had to do everything except pull a rabbit out of a hat at home.... bad troll, bad.

REHawk 3 years, 6 months ago

Well, here is my early evening take on the subject of coninuing the Border War. I am with Baylor women's coach Kim Mulkey who says No Way to the deserting teams. Nebraska, Colorado, A+M, and Missouri divorced the league. They are not to be allowed back in bed with us. Specifically, what does Mizzou have to offer Kansas? We have filled our 16,300 seats for two decades, and would continue to do so even if we scheduled Johnson County Community College. I hope never to see the Tigers re-enter the hallowed halls of The Phog, not in my lifetime. Missouri's continued attempts to find a more stable and lucrative landing strip did much to destabilize the Big 12, placing bigtime stress on Kansas athletics. Why would our program or fans ever again wish to undergo the ugly abuse and atmosphere in Mizzou Arena, aka The Paige? Having never achieved Final Four success, rarely do they fill their arena but for occasionally when superpowers like the Jayhawks come to play. What could be gained by our traveling annually to Columbia? Granted, the War might eventually reignite enough to be played on a neutral court, perhaps KC Sprint Center. If so, Kansas should agree to play for terms guaranteeing at least a 60% share of the gate. But really, why clog our schedule with a class B or C program? Let's wait at least 3 years before even considering a neutral site reunion. As a Big 12 school, Missouri was guaranteed annual access to Allen Fieldhouse and competition with a program which represents the historical seat of the very sport itself...the cornerstone of worldwide amateur and professional basketball. The Tigers have forsaken the value of a relationship with Kansas and our league. Frank Haith has inherited and, to date, done a terrific job with Flip Pressey and the seniors whom Mike Anderson left behind. Next season, the Tigers will be back in the basement of whichever conference has allowed their entrance. Their recent emergence is a mere flash in the pan, destined for a return to mediocrity. As far as I am concerned, bye-bye...forever.

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